From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Thu Jul  1 13:35:57 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:35:57 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] The Perl Foundation
Message-ID: <20100701223557.6cdfb054@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hello,

You might find the following link of interest as regards Perl Politics!

Gabor Szabo is an active member of the pm_org list.

http://blogs.perl.org/users/gabor_szabo/2010/07/what-would-you-like-tpf-to-do.html

On the same site, blogs by 'a casual coder' are mine.

bestest
Anne

From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Thu Jul  1 13:38:55 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:38:55 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] new members of za-pm
Message-ID: <20100701223855.1796b131@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hello,

monkey_vegas at cox.net
James Wright

szabgab at gmail.com
Gabor Szabo

regards
Anne

From szabgab at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 14:17:48 2010
From: szabgab at gmail.com (Gabor Szabo)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 00:17:48 +0300
Subject: [za-pm] The Perl Foundation
In-Reply-To: <20100701223557.6cdfb054@pandora.fables.co.za>
References: <20100701223557.6cdfb054@pandora.fables.co.za>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim7HI05rgnjX2MxnL9ZbmlfRmzHTcYre1V3I8WR@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Anne Wainwright
<anotheranne at fables.co.za> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> You might find the following link of interest as regards Perl Politics!
>
> Gabor Szabo is an active member of the pm_org list.

and now he also listens in on za.pm :)

>
> http://blogs.perl.org/users/gabor_szabo/2010/07/what-would-you-like-tpf-to-do.html
>

and it would be very important to read your comments as well.
Even if you think "The big guys are not interested in my opinion" or better yes,
especially then, it would be a good chance to voice your opinion.
Tell them what do you know about TPF.
Tell them what you'd like it to do for you.


> On the same site, blogs by 'a casual coder' are mine.

http://blogs.perl.org/users/a_casual_coder/

nice to see you there!

regards
  Gabor

From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Mon Jul 26 11:11:19 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:11:19 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] Fw: [pm_groups] Whatever happened to Perl?
Message-ID: <20100726201119.39118ee0@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hi, za-pm members.

Apart from the line "Perl's claim to fame has always been that it makes
easy things hard, and hard things possible," the points raised in this
link are well answered by another post that I will forward now now!

Anne

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:54:33 -0700
From: Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com>
To: PM Groups <pm_groups at pm.org>
Subject: [pm_groups] Whatever happened to Perl?


This article really deserves a read to help enlighten the author:

http://www.infoworld.com/t/languages-and-standards/whatever-happened-perl-012
--
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From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Mon Jul 26 11:15:43 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:15:43 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] Fw: [pm_groups] Whatever happened to Perl?
Message-ID: <20100726201543.45edf73d@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hi,

this forwarded post refers to the immediately preceding post.

I have also noted to the writer that I believe that the 'popular' site
uporn also runs on Catalyst. I really wouldn't know, but it was
mentioned on the Catalyst list or on the IRC group.

Anne

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:44:32 -0400
From: Chris Prather <chris at prather.org>
To: Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com>
Cc: PM Groups <pm_groups at pm.org>
Subject: Re: [pm_groups] Whatever happened to Perl?


On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com>
wrote:
> This article really deserves a read to help enlighten the author:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/t/languages-and-standards/whatever-happened-perl-012


Having just spent two solid days last week talking to anybody who
wandered past about Modern Perl, there is really nothing I think we
can say to this author. His view point, despite knowing about Moose
and presumably Catalyst, is that you can't write modern applications
in Perl without taking a serious performance hit or writing
unmaintainable code. From a purely objective standpoint he's wrong. We
know he's wrong, because we do this all the time.

The problem is that he is not objective. This article is a pure
opinion piece used to troll for responses that re-enforce the frame
that his argument even begins to hold merit. The best thing we can do
as a community is not to break out the enlightenment torches, which I
admit was my first reaction until the registration-wall stopped me and
made me come to my senses. The best thing we can do as a community is
to emphatically point to the cases where we *do* have successes. Omni
Hotels makes $76 million annually in a Catalyst application. The BBC
uses Catalyst in league with several other architectures in their
iPlayer platform. Magazines.com, ThinkGeek.com, they are pure or
nearly-pure Perl application stacks. What *other* success stories can
we point to like these? We need to be talking about how Perl is
solving our problems today and adds value to our businesses.

Also we need to talk about how Perl solves problems other languages
haven't thought to solve yet. Moose's Roles are a feature that exists
in only a half dozen or so languages: Perl5 (Moose), Perl6, Scala,
Smalltalk, Lisp and possibly some more esoteric reference
implementations. Of these languages which has the largest adoption in
business? I'd make a serious bet that it is Perl5. Roles add some
serious value if you have a large object oriented code base. I saw on
twitter someone mentioning that ActiveRecord was just starting to get
features that DBIx::Class has had for years. While I'm sure that some
of these languages have features we can only dream of (I know the
Japanese Perl Mongers are stealing quite a bit from Ruby), and Perl
has some warts we can all point to (our native concurrency models all
suck right now IMO), we need to look at our successful spots and write
about them.

We need to talk about how our tool chain is established. How many
other languages have a CPAN? How many have three different clients
that can automatically chase and install dependencies? How many have
automatic smoke testing of every module in their comprehensive
archive? How many smoke test against a half dozen platforms, and at
least three major releases of the core language? How many people have
had their projects saved by being able to talk to the CPAN author and
get XYZ feature implemented/fixed/documented so that they can roll it
out into production on time?

These are the stories we need to tell. We need to point to articles
like this one as not just being *wrong*, but being so horribly
uniformed that they appear as obviously clueless as they actually are.

Right this was a bit more ranty than I intended, but I'm still
recovering from two days manning the TPF booth at OSCON. I've seen a
lot of mis-informed or poorly informed people in the last few days, so
I'm still a bit sensitive to it.

Carry on with whatever you were doing.

-Chris
Tamarou LLC -- Tamarou.com
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From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Wed Sep 29 12:22:44 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:22:44 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] perl highlight mode in gedit & Vim
Message-ID: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hi,

After studying harder and getting my brain around complex data
structures I am off charging (well, relatively so) thru the new
Catalyst book, putting in the examples and getting them to work and
understanding how they work. Now:

Please tell me that i have this right
perl file outline:

appropriate #! start stuff

perl code
..........
even more perl code
..........
end of perl code

=head1 HEADING

pod comments
more pod comments

=cut

ever so much more perl code
..........
even more ever so much more perl code
..........
end of ever so much more perl code
1;
__END__

=head1 HEADING

final pod comments
more final pod comments

=cut

The __END__ token signifies to the parser that there is definitely no
more perl code past that point only, in this case, pod stuff

The perl syntax highlighting in gedit stops at the __END__ token, that
is to say that past that point =head1 & =cut do not have the benefit of
the editor syntax highlighting.

Does this happen with all other editors? (I know it does in gVim as
well). I just wondered where the highlighting went to, it usually gives
in when you have something wrong, not when you have it right for once.

It's sort of logical, and sort of not. Either the editor is going to
supply highlighting or it isn't. Only if I put the __END__ token at the
_very_ end of the file, past the final =cut, is the highlighting of
the pod elements restored, but this sort of negates the purpose of
the __END__ token (presumably to mark the end of code to be parsed and
thus save time normally spent parsing non-code pod stuff.

Does any one take issue with the putting of the __END__ token right
after the 1; and forget about the highlighting of the final batch of
pod stuff? Are some other editors better behaved?

ps. just doing small stuff I stick with gedit, but am investigating vim
just in case.

Thanks
Anne

From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Wed Sep 29 12:33:15 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:33:15 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] perl highlight mode in gedit & Vim
In-Reply-To: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
References: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
Message-ID: <20100929213315.510bc095@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hello,

Second take.

Actually vim is better behaved than I described, its perl highlighting
puts all the pod elements and comments in one common colour, which
behaviour stays the same irrespective of the location of the __END__
token, it is in gvim that the elements (like head1) are in a 
distinctive colour that evaporates if the __END__ token precedes them.

So I think that gedit just has its little ways. The loss of
highlighting made me think I had something wrong, that was really the
issue that threw me.

Anne


On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:22:44 +0200
Anne Wainwright <anotheranne at fables.co.za> wrote:

> Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> After studying harder and getting my brain around complex data
> structures I am off charging (well, relatively so) thru the new
> Catalyst book, putting in the examples and getting them to work and
> understanding how they work. Now:
> 
> Please tell me that i have this right
> perl file outline:
> 
> appropriate #! start stuff
> 
> perl code
> ..........
> even more perl code
> ..........
> end of perl code
> 
> =head1 HEADING
> 
> pod comments
> more pod comments
> 
> =cut
> 
> ever so much more perl code
> ..........
> even more ever so much more perl code
> ..........
> end of ever so much more perl code
> 1;
> __END__
> 
> =head1 HEADING
> 
> final pod comments
> more final pod comments
> 
> =cut
> 
> The __END__ token signifies to the parser that there is definitely no
> more perl code past that point only, in this case, pod stuff
> 
> The perl syntax highlighting in gedit stops at the __END__ token, that
> is to say that past that point =head1 & =cut do not have the benefit
> of the editor syntax highlighting.
> 
> Does this happen with all other editors? (I know it does in gVim as
> well). I just wondered where the highlighting went to, it usually
> gives in when you have something wrong, not when you have it right
> for once.
> 
> It's sort of logical, and sort of not. Either the editor is going to
> supply highlighting or it isn't. Only if I put the __END__ token at
> the _very_ end of the file, past the final =cut, is the highlighting
> of the pod elements restored, but this sort of negates the purpose of
> the __END__ token (presumably to mark the end of code to be parsed and
> thus save time normally spent parsing non-code pod stuff.
> 
> Does any one take issue with the putting of the __END__ token right
> after the 1; and forget about the highlighting of the final batch of
> pod stuff? Are some other editors better behaved?
> 
> ps. just doing small stuff I stick with gedit, but am investigating
> vim just in case.
> 
> Thanks
> Anne
> _______________________________________________
> Za-pm mailing list
> Za-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm
> 
> posts also archived on Mail Archive
> http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/

From edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com  Wed Sep 29 12:50:45 2010
From: edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com (Edoardo Sabadelli)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:50:45 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] perl highlight mode in gedit & Vim
In-Reply-To: <20100929213315.510bc095@pandora.fables.co.za>
References: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
	<20100929213315.510bc095@pandora.fables.co.za>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikAfacZBWCXiPgXjhPzWyiKYU4jx6r+KEYYtFVj@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Anne Wainwright
<anotheranne at fables.co.za> wrote:
> Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list.
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Second take.
>
> Actually vim is better behaved than I described, its perl highlighting
> puts all the pod elements and comments in one common colour, which
> behaviour stays the same irrespective of the location of the __END__
> token, it is in gvim that the elements (like head1) are in a
> distinctive colour that evaporates if the __END__ token precedes them.
>
> So I think that gedit just has its little ways. The loss of
> highlighting made me think I had something wrong, that was really the
> issue that threw me.
>
> Anne

Hi Anne, I use Vim for all my coding and I noticed some highlighting
problems only sometimes when scrolling, but always when in the code
there are some particular conditions, such as escaped quotes in
strings or interpolated strings that span on several lines.
Usually when scrolling further those issues disappear.

Besides that, I took the habit of using F8 for saving when I work on Perl files.
I use this simple mapping in Vim (~/.vimrc file):

map <F8> :w<CR>:! perl -c %<CR>

which as you might notice, saves the file (:w), then runs the perl
syntax checker (:! perl -c %).
The `<CR>' is the same as pressing Enter.
`:!' gives you access to the shell in which Vim is running, and `%'
represents the current file.

So, whenever I press F8, the file is saved and the Perl syntax is
checked automatically, showing me any syntax error I might have in my
file.

Try it, is very useful :)

-- 
Edoardo

From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Wed Sep 29 14:31:53 2010
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:31:53 +0200
Subject: [za-pm] perl highlight mode in gedit & Vim
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikAfacZBWCXiPgXjhPzWyiKYU4jx6r+KEYYtFVj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
	<20100929213315.510bc095@pandora.fables.co.za>
	<AANLkTikAfacZBWCXiPgXjhPzWyiKYU4jx6r+KEYYtFVj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100929233153.63f629d9@pandora.fables.co.za>

Hello, Edoardo,

see below


On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:50:45 +0200
Edoardo Sabadelli <edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com> wrote:

> Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Anne Wainwright
> <anotheranne at fables.co.za> wrote:
> > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list.
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Second take.
> >
> > Actually vim is better behaved than I described, its perl
> > highlighting puts all the pod elements and comments in one common
> > colour, which behaviour stays the same irrespective of the location
> > of the __END__ token, it is in gvim that the elements (like head1)
> > are in a distinctive colour that evaporates if the __END__ token
> > precedes them.
> >
> > So I think that gedit just has its little ways. The loss of
> > highlighting made me think I had something wrong, that was really
> > the issue that threw me.
> >
> > Anne
> 
> Hi Anne, I use Vim for all my coding and I noticed some highlighting
> problems only sometimes when scrolling, but always when in the code
> there are some particular conditions, such as escaped quotes in
> strings or interpolated strings that span on several lines.
> Usually when scrolling further those issues disappear.
> 
> Besides that, I took the habit of using F8 for saving when I work on
> Perl files. I use this simple mapping in Vim (~/.vimrc file):
> 
> map <F8> :w<CR>:! perl -c %<CR>
well, this evening I had been trying the perl -c switch on some
files for the first time, very good, so some synchronicity there! Since
I seem to spend serious time trying to catch syntax errors (aka spelling
mistakes) that will make for some time saving for me.

I deleted a ';' in a regularly used file, and ran perl with the -c
switch and I see it pops up syntax help, the same as when you run the
file with an error. Could be useful, hey! I'll experiment with your
mapping as given above.

thanks
Anne

> 
> which as you might notice, saves the file (:w), then runs the perl
> syntax checker (:! perl -c %).
> The `<CR>' is the same as pressing Enter.
> `:!' gives you access to the shell in which Vim is running, and `%'
> represents the current file.
> 
> So, whenever I press F8, the file is saved and the Perl syntax is
> checked automatically, showing me any syntax error I might have in my
> file.
> 
> Try it, is very useful :)
> 

From jkeen at verizon.net  Wed Sep 29 19:14:35 2010
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:14:35 -0400
Subject: [za-pm] perl highlight mode in gedit & Vim
In-Reply-To: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
References: <20100929212244.091e998a@pandora.fables.co.za>
Message-ID: <5FF79E18-1CC3-4AE5-A229-4A7FF9F499DC@verizon.net>


On Sep 29, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote:

> end of ever so much more perl code
> 1;
> __END__
>
> =head1 HEADING
>
> final pod comments
> more final pod comments
>


The __END__ is not needed in this example because there is no code  
following the __END__ which you might want to hide from the Perl  
Parser.  When the parser reaches '=head1', it knows it has reached  
POD and deals with it accordingly.

The simplest explanation of __END__ I could find is here:
http://www.platypiventures.com/perl/present/MakeModule/013.html

Depending on circumstances, the '1;' may not be needed, either.

The '1;' is merely the prototypical case of ending a file with a  
statement that Perl evaluates as true.  You could just as easily  
follow Mark-Jason Dominus' practice of ending a module with:

'cogito ergo sum';

You need to end the file with a statement that evaluates to true if  
and only if the file is going to be imported by 'use', 'require' or  
'do' into some other Perl program.  A '.pm' module you will download  
from CPAN typically ends with '1;' for this reason.  But a standalone  
Perl script doesn't need it.

Whether your file needs to end in a true statement or not, you can  
write POD following the final code statement.

Thank you very much.
Jim Keenan