From anotheranne at fables.co.za Thu Apr 1 12:38:59 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:38:59 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] membership stats Message-ID: <20100401213859.05d0c33c@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, For the record we have 61 members. I identify 36 as having a local address, so possibly considering the gmail & similar addresses we may have about 40 local members. Some are clearly overseas (ie. .ca or .ru) while others are indeterminate because of multinational corporate addresses. posts are also now archived on Mail Archive. This also provides an RSS feed if wanted, and is anyway a nice way to check out recent list mail. http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ (well, with mail-archive subscribed this first email should set it up automagically) Regards Anne From spike at mweb.co.za Tue Apr 6 00:53:32 2010 From: spike at mweb.co.za (Spike) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 09:53:32 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] test2 Message-ID: <4BBAE87C.1030200@mweb.co.za> tst2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Apr 6 14:04:09 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:04:09 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? Message-ID: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, Well, is it? I was surprised (perhaps I wasn't) when I logged onto the za-pm list-server to find that of course it is the ubiquitous Mailman which is written in Python, and although it is a very capable package I thought we might be supporting home industries ;) There are a number of mailing list managers written in perl (sympa, dadamail). Can't comment on whether we have the best one, but I'm happy with it anyway. Looking on the ubuntu software centre app, entering 'perl' brings up 19 apps which is reduced to 13 if we omit editors, ide's, and perl-specific tools. entering 'python' brings up 99 apps reduced to 72 on the same basis. OK, figures up or down one or two, but that's a big difference. There are an awful lot more general applications written in Python than perl available for a linux box. Conversely, under IT & computer the local new book site loot.co.za lists 338 books under 'perl' and 207 under 'python', but of course Perl has been around a _lot_longer and many of the perl titles are of long-standing. I am (very slowly) developing an app in perl/Catalyst. Needing something up and running faster than I was going I found a RAD front - Kexi - to do the CRUD dirtywork. No suprise, buttons & stuff can have actions coded in Python or Ruby, but not perl! That's the KDE offering, the Gnome offering - Glom - also allows coding in Python but not in perl (or Ruby for that matter). This result could of course be skewed by the sort of programming that each language is typically used for. Perl is probably way ahead in the administration stakes, but why has it lagged behind in general useage? Is this a technical issue? Do we have a new generation of programmers brought up on Python and not perl? At the local university Python has been the starter package for IT for some years. They are very M$ oriented and students are not much exposed to linux and hence perl. I could go on, but wondered what the views on this from the professional world are. bestest Anne From winstonh at mweb.co.za Tue Apr 6 17:01:59 2010 From: winstonh at mweb.co.za (Winston Haybittle) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 02:01:59 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: Hi Ann & Group We need clear roadmap for PERL 6, maybe a standards cross platform compiler. This is definitely not technical issue, maybe management/marketing optimizations needed. And then there is training and support? I mean PERL kills PHP hands down?! Modern day architecture with open standards means that Programming Language/OS lock in is less relevant. People should be packaging virtual appliances with Perl in the core? As is the norm with the very best VM appliances. Winston... -----Original Message----- From: za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org [mailto:za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org] On Behalf Of Anne Wainwright Sent: 06 April 2010 11:04 PM To: za perlmongers Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? Note: Default reply-to is to the poster. Hi, Well, is it? I was surprised (perhaps I wasn't) when I logged onto the za-pm list-server to find that of course it is the ubiquitous Mailman which is written in Python, and although it is a very capable package I thought we might be supporting home industries ;) There are a number of mailing list managers written in perl (sympa, dadamail). Can't comment on whether we have the best one, but I'm happy with it anyway. Looking on the ubuntu software centre app, entering 'perl' brings up 19 apps which is reduced to 13 if we omit editors, ide's, and perl-specific tools. entering 'python' brings up 99 apps reduced to 72 on the same basis. OK, figures up or down one or two, but that's a big difference. There are an awful lot more general applications written in Python than perl available for a linux box. Conversely, under IT & computer the local new book site loot.co.za lists 338 books under 'perl' and 207 under 'python', but of course Perl has been around a _lot_longer and many of the perl titles are of long-standing. I am (very slowly) developing an app in perl/Catalyst. Needing something up and running faster than I was going I found a RAD front - Kexi - to do the CRUD dirtywork. No suprise, buttons & stuff can have actions coded in Python or Ruby, but not perl! That's the KDE offering, the Gnome offering - Glom - also allows coding in Python but not in perl (or Ruby for that matter). This result could of course be skewed by the sort of programming that each language is typically used for. Perl is probably way ahead in the administration stakes, but why has it lagged behind in general useage? Is this a technical issue? Do we have a new generation of programmers brought up on Python and not perl? At the local university Python has been the starter package for IT for some years. They are very M$ oriented and students are not much exposed to linux and hence perl. I could go on, but wondered what the views on this from the professional world are. bestest Anne _______________________________________________ Za-pm mailing list Za-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm posts also archived on Mail Archive http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ From anotheranne at fables.co.za Wed Apr 7 10:53:40 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:53:40 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Default reply not to list. BEWARE. Message-ID: <20100407195340.414c17e5@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, Knowing that most posters just hit the reply key I don't want to cope with seemingly personal emails from every poster. So I have changed the default 'Reply To Poster' to "Reply To List'. The warning is, look who you post to, a 'reply' to a friend containing subversive comments could easily go public. You have been warned! bestest Anne From francois at busii.com Thu Apr 8 01:16:40 2010 From: francois at busii.com (Francois Marais) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:16:40 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: Hi Anne, There are of course Catalyst CRUD modules on CPAN, but to help with the wider issue you raise, have a look at this interesting discussion http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=526866 particularly brian d foy's comments about IT managers being the real problem. There is a (more recent) presentation with notes somewhere by Tim Bunce (the Perl mythbuster) on Perl myths busted. Also, if development activity is a concern, have a look at www.ohloh.net. You will see that development on Perl5 (now 17+ years old) is still active, compared with eg C#. Will we see the same level of activity for Java/C# at that age? To add another animal to the technology zoo, how about the crocodile? It has survived several mass extinctions which wiped out many other species :-) Regards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at mweb.co.za Thu Apr 8 05:20:12 2010 From: spike at mweb.co.za (Spike) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:20:12 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: <4BBDC9FC.2020909@mweb.co.za> perl will never die for the simple reason it works. And works fast. Ask a java programmer to do the equivalent of perl -p -i -e on a hundred 500Mb files and see which app is ready first and which runs the quickest. We have complex systems built on .net. they work, not brilliantly but they do work. But simple things are often very time consuming. A quick example springs to mind - we need to FTP a 600Mb text files from a remote site and total all the numbers in the 4th, 9th and 17th columns depending on the value of the text in the first column. It took about 15 mintis to write and hour to polish in perl. The .net guys are still trying to get the FTP to work. So what I'm saying is that no matter how advanced and expensive your lazer concrete cutter is, a drill will always be faster and more reliable if you want to make hole. Winston Haybittle (by way of Anne Wainwright ) wrote: > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > Hi Ann & Group > We need clear roadmap for PERL 6, maybe a standards cross platform compiler. > This is definitely not technical issue, maybe management/marketing > optimizations needed. And then there is training and support? I mean PERL > kills PHP hands down?! Modern day architecture with open standards means > that Programming Language/OS lock in is less relevant. People should be > packaging virtual appliances with Perl in the core? As is the norm with the > very best VM appliances. > Winston... > > -----Original Message----- > From: za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org > [mailto:za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org] On Behalf Of Anne > Wainwright > Sent: 06 April 2010 11:04 PM > To: za perlmongers > Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? > > Note: Default reply-to is to the poster. > Hi, > > Well, is it? > > I was surprised (perhaps I wasn't) when I logged onto the za-pm > list-server to find that of course it is the ubiquitous Mailman which > is written in Python, and although it is a very capable package I > thought we might be supporting home industries ;) There are a number of > mailing list managers written in perl (sympa, dadamail). Can't comment > on whether we have the best one, but I'm happy with it anyway. > > Looking on the ubuntu software centre app, entering 'perl' brings up 19 > apps which is reduced to 13 if we omit editors, ide's, and perl-specific > tools. > > entering 'python' brings up 99 apps reduced to 72 on the same basis. > > OK, figures up or down one or two, but that's a big difference. There > are an awful lot more general applications written in Python than perl > available for a linux box. > > Conversely, under IT & computer the local new book site loot.co.za > lists 338 books under 'perl' and 207 under 'python', but of course Perl > has been around a _lot_longer and many of the perl titles are of > long-standing. > > I am (very slowly) developing an app in perl/Catalyst. Needing > something up and running faster than I was going I found a RAD front - > Kexi - to do the CRUD dirtywork. No suprise, buttons & stuff can have > actions coded in Python or Ruby, but not perl! That's the KDE offering, > the Gnome offering - Glom - also allows coding in Python but not in perl > (or Ruby for that matter). > > This result could of course be skewed by the sort of programming that > each language is typically used for. Perl is probably way ahead in the > administration stakes, but why has it lagged behind in general useage? > Is this a technical issue? > > Do we have a new generation of programmers brought up on Python and not > perl? At the local university Python has been the starter package for > IT for some years. They are very M$ oriented and students are not > much exposed to linux and hence perl. > > I could go on, but wondered what the views on this from the > professional world are. > > bestest > Anne > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing list > Za-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archive > http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing list > Za-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archive > http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois at busii.com Thu Apr 8 06:38:56 2010 From: francois at busii.com (Francois Marais) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:38:56 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: <4BBDC9FC.2020909@mweb.co.za> References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> <4BBDC9FC.2020909@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: Another example: At a major SA financal institution we are working a M$ developer was given the task to clean name and address lists on a DB2 database. You know the thing: Address line1, line2,... with potentially everything in each line. The task was to sort that as far as possible into title, forenames, surname,... Anyway, a month later he came back proudly wielding a 12page SQL script. When asked how it worked he refused to explain, with a proud smile, saying the logic was too impenetrable. I heard about this, had a look around on CPAN, downloaded Lingua::EN::NameParse, and after fiddling with the config file to introduce local titles like Mnr/Mev/..., I was cleaning the DB2 data no problem. And I only had to write 10 lines of code, and importantly no parsing. And it took me one hour. And the parsing criteria are in a config file for all to see, easy to change. >From every possible angle, except the original programmers twisted sense of pride, the Perl solution was better. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Spike wrote: > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > > perl will never die for the simple reason it works. And works fast. Ask a > java programmer to do the equivalent of perl -p -i -e on a hundred 500Mb > files and see which app is ready first and which runs the quickest. > > We have complex systems built on .net. they work, not brilliantly but they > do work. But simple things are often very time consuming. A quick example > springs to mind - we need to FTP a 600Mb text files from a remote site and > total all the numbers in the 4th, 9th and 17th columns depending on the > value of the text in the first column. It took about 15 mintis to write and > hour to polish in perl. The .net guys are still trying to get the FTP to > work. > > So what I'm saying is that no matter how advanced and expensive your lazer > concrete cutter is, a drill will always be faster and more reliable if you > want to make hole. > > Winston Haybittle (by way of Anne Wainwright ) > wrote: > > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > Hi Ann & Group > We need clear roadmap for PERL 6, maybe a standards cross platform compiler. > This is definitely not technical issue, maybe management/marketing > optimizations needed. And then there is training and support? I mean PERL > kills PHP hands down?! Modern day architecture with open standards means > that Programming Language/OS lock in is less relevant. People should be > packaging virtual appliances with Perl in the core? As is the norm with the > very best VM appliances. > Winston... > > -----Original Message----- > From: za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org > [mailto:za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org ] On Behalf Of Anne > Wainwright > Sent: 06 April 2010 11:04 PM > To: za perlmongers > Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? > > Note: Default reply-to is to the poster. > Hi, > > Well, is it? > > I was surprised (perhaps I wasn't) when I logged onto the za-pm > list-server to find that of course it is the ubiquitous Mailman which > is written in Python, and although it is a very capable package I > thought we might be supporting home industries ;) There are a number of > mailing list managers written in perl (sympa, dadamail). Can't comment > on whether we have the best one, but I'm happy with it anyway. > > Looking on the ubuntu software centre app, entering 'perl' brings up 19 > apps which is reduced to 13 if we omit editors, ide's, and perl-specific > tools. > > entering 'python' brings up 99 apps reduced to 72 on the same basis. > > OK, figures up or down one or two, but that's a big difference. There > are an awful lot more general applications written in Python than perl > available for a linux box. > > Conversely, under IT & computer the local new book site loot.co.za > lists 338 books under 'perl' and 207 under 'python', but of course Perl > has been around a _lot_longer and many of the perl titles are of > long-standing. > > I am (very slowly) developing an app in perl/Catalyst. Needing > something up and running faster than I was going I found a RAD front - > Kexi - to do the CRUD dirtywork. No suprise, buttons & stuff can have > actions coded in Python or Ruby, but not perl! That's the KDE offering, > the Gnome offering - Glom - also allows coding in Python but not in perl > (or Ruby for that matter). > > This result could of course be skewed by the sort of programming that > each language is typically used for. Perl is probably way ahead in the > administration stakes, but why has it lagged behind in general useage? > Is this a technical issue? > > Do we have a new generation of programmers brought up on Python and not > perl? At the local university Python has been the starter package for > IT for some years. They are very M$ oriented and students are not > much exposed to linux and hence perl. > > I could go on, but wondered what the views on this from the > professional world are. > > bestest > Anne > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing listZa-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing listZa-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing list > Za-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archive > http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at mweb.co.za Fri Apr 9 00:38:24 2010 From: spike at mweb.co.za (Spike) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:38:24 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> <4BBDC9FC.2020909@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <4BBED970.4000300@mweb.co.za> I have had this data-cleaning experience often. "we don't have budget for the software","we are looking at blah product". I have usualy accomplished the task with a few carefully crafted Regex. Hey thanks for the heads up on Lingua::EN::NameParse I will definitely haver a look at that! Francois Marais wrote: > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Another example: At a major SA financal institution we are working a > M$ developer was given the task to clean name and address lists on a > DB2 database. You know the thing: Address line1, line2,... with > potentially everything in each line. The task was to sort that as far > as possible into title, forenames, surname,... > > Anyway, a month later he came back proudly wielding a 12page SQL > script. When asked how it worked he refused to explain, with a proud > smile, saying the logic was too impenetrable. > > I heard about this, had a look around on CPAN, downloaded > Lingua::EN::NameParse, and after fiddling with the config file to > introduce local titles like Mnr/Mev/..., I was cleaning the DB2 data > no problem. And I only had to write 10 lines of code, and importantly > no parsing. And it took me one hour. And the parsing criteria are in a > config file for all to see, easy to change. > > From every possible angle, except the original programmers twisted > sense of pride, the Perl solution was better. > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Spike > wrote: > > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > > perl will never die for the simple reason it works. And works > fast. Ask a java programmer to do the equivalent of perl -p -i -e > on a hundred 500Mb files and see which app is ready first and > which runs the quickest. > > We have complex systems built on .net. they work, not brilliantly > but they do work. But simple things are often very time > consuming. A quick example springs to mind - we need to FTP a > 600Mb text files from a remote site and total all the numbers in > the 4th, 9th and 17th columns depending on the value of the text > in the first column. It took about 15 mintis to write and hour to > polish in perl. The .net guys are still trying to get the FTP to work. > > So what I'm saying is that no matter how advanced and expensive > your lazer concrete cutter is, a drill will always be faster and > more reliable if you want to make hole. > > Winston Haybittle (by way of Anne Wainwright > ) wrote: >> Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. >> Hi Ann & Group >> We need clear roadmap for PERL 6, maybe a standards cross platform compiler. >> This is definitely not technical issue, maybe management/marketing >> optimizations needed. And then there is training and support? I mean PERL >> kills PHP hands down?! Modern day architecture with open standards means >> that Programming Language/OS lock in is less relevant. People should be >> packaging virtual appliances with Perl in the core? As is the norm with the >> very best VM appliances. >> Winston... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org >> [mailto:za-pm-bounces+winstonh=mweb.co.za at pm.org] On Behalf Of Anne >> Wainwright >> Sent: 06 April 2010 11:04 PM >> To: za perlmongers >> Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? >> >> Note: Default reply-to is to the poster. >> Hi, >> >> Well, is it? >> >> I was surprised (perhaps I wasn't) when I logged onto the za-pm >> list-server to find that of course it is the ubiquitous Mailman which >> is written in Python, and although it is a very capable package I >> thought we might be supporting home industries ;) There are a number of >> mailing list managers written in perl (sympa, dadamail). Can't comment >> on whether we have the best one, but I'm happy with it anyway. >> >> Looking on the ubuntu software centre app, entering 'perl' brings up 19 >> apps which is reduced to 13 if we omit editors, ide's, and perl-specific >> tools. >> >> entering 'python' brings up 99 apps reduced to 72 on the same basis. >> >> OK, figures up or down one or two, but that's a big difference. There >> are an awful lot more general applications written in Python than perl >> available for a linux box. >> >> Conversely, under IT & computer the local new book site loot.co.za >> lists 338 books under 'perl' and 207 under 'python', but of course Perl >> has been around a _lot_longer and many of the perl titles are of >> long-standing. >> >> I am (very slowly) developing an app in perl/Catalyst. Needing >> something up and running faster than I was going I found a RAD front - >> Kexi - to do the CRUD dirtywork. No suprise, buttons & stuff can have >> actions coded in Python or Ruby, but not perl! That's the KDE offering, >> the Gnome offering - Glom - also allows coding in Python but not in perl >> (or Ruby for that matter). >> >> This result could of course be skewed by the sort of programming that >> each language is typically used for. Perl is probably way ahead in the >> administration stakes, but why has it lagged behind in general useage? >> Is this a technical issue? >> >> Do we have a new generation of programmers brought up on Python and not >> perl? At the local university Python has been the starter package for >> IT for some years. They are very M$ oriented and students are not >> much exposed to linux and hence perl. >> >> I could go on, but wondered what the views on this from the >> professional world are. >> >> bestest >> Anne >> _______________________________________________ >> Za-pm mailing list >> Za-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm >> >> posts also archived on Mail Archive >> http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Za-pm mailing list >> Za-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm >> >> posts also archived on Mail Archive >> http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing list > Za-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archive > http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Za-pm mailing list > Za-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/za-pm > > posts also archived on Mail Archive > http://www.mail-archive.com/za-pm at pm.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anotheranne at fables.co.za Mon Apr 12 15:01:07 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 00:01:07 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] is Perl on the decline? In-Reply-To: References: <20100406230409.3fa87317@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: <20100413000107.276f2929@pandora.fables.co.za> Hello, Francois, & others, There were some interesting points made there, and the perl-monks discussion was well worth reading along with all the related links (x-planes, wow!). While cbrandtbuffalo does a good job of promoting why perl should be used, or why it should not be left unused, brian d. foy (shades of e.e. cummings) sidetracks to make his own point that the problems of code are more often related to slack management practices which even if true does not help perl. I am sure that perl is being written right now, that daily it runs in a million places, that all perl practitioners vow it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that job advert analysis show a healthy demand for perl skills, etc. But back to Kexi, new news looking at the things to come on the scripting scene. Across the KDE board the solution is to be http://kross.dipe.org/index.html which allows plugins to be written to support whatever language you want to write your scripts in. What have we at the present moment? Python. Ruby. Javascript. Falcon. here we have a major effort ..... whoa! Falcon? That's a new one, to me at least. here we have a major effort, Kexi and KDE, looking at scripting and apparently no one is even aware of perl. From my narrow perspective I thought perl was _the_ scripting language bar none, and here we have a hotshot new language getting into a very public slot that we apparently do not even know exists. So the problem that I see may be one of advocacy. Do not the Perl Foundation, the monks, mongers, & porters, have a way of looking at what is happening and directing resources? I guess not, it would be up to individual perlers to take the light where needed, come up with a grant proposal to the Perl Foundation, or even just do it. I am not really complaining, just disappointed and surprised that such a very public thing seems to have slipped under the perl radar. I just never imagined that in any major linux application (well, KOffice thingys are hardly 'utilities') would feature scripting without perl at the forefront. Obviously I was wrong. I'd offer my services if I were capable but will take Kexi for what it is and concentrate on the catalyst angle when I get more spare time. Thanks for all the input. regards Anne On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:16:40 +0200 Francois Marais wrote: > From anotheranne at fables.co.za Wed Apr 14 12:55:58 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:55:58 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Perl advocacy on Techtalk Message-ID: <20100414215558.1fb07360@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, Techtalk is the general tech list of Linuxchix, men are allowed but only if they don't shout and let the girls talk first. http://www.linuxchix.org/ An interesting thread on scripting languages has just developed, and I attach posts so far to this email (hope the za-pm listserv does not mangle them). You'll see my comment. If you want to make a comment, then either join, or copy me and I'll forward it in with full credit to you. bestest Anne -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... 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From: Daniel Pittman Subject: Re: [Techtalk] Ruby/Perl Tutorials Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:08:16 +1000 Size: 7368 URL: From anotheranne at fables.co.za Mon Apr 19 10:12:59 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:12:59 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Old email addresses on za-pm now bounce Message-ID: <20100419191259.465e973e@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, People move on, the following addresses now bounce mail from this list. The recent emails have reached the preset level and have set the 'no mail' (bounce) trigger. They will be automatically unsubscribed shortly I would imagine. If you know any of them you can remind them to subscribe a new address if they want. adrians at turnkey.web.za aleatoric at telkomsa.net ....... josh corinna at binary.za.com emmanuel.asante at bhpbilliton.com evad at tfmc.co.za ....... denham jesse at jesselong.co.za max at maxcruiser.com ........ andy perl.monger at email.ua .........john smith perl at log-it.ru pgp at consys.co.za ptruman at metropolitan.co.za rob.edmonds at rmb.co.za bestest Anne From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Apr 20 14:22:35 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:22:35 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Fw: [pm_groups] Poll: What is the primary operating system you use for developing Perl applications? Message-ID: <20100420232235.784c6471@pandora.fables.co.za> I suspect a lot of these may come down to the wire to me as group leader. I'll forward them on unless there is consensus that you do not want me to do so. Anne Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:46:47 +0300 From: Gabor Szabo To: PM Groups Subject: [pm_groups] Poll: What is the primary operating system you use for developing Perl applications? Please forward this request to your pm group if you feel it appropriate. Thanks Gabor 8< ----- cut here ----- >8 Please take the 5 sec to answer this question on the new poll I setup: http://perlide.org/poll201004/ and send this request to the other people using Perl in your company. thanks ? Gabor -- Gabor Szabo ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://szabgab.com/ -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Apr 20 14:25:37 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:25:37 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] 0..$#input_numbers ??? Message-ID: <20100420232537.0dbfed06@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, As usual, writing a clear email about a problem has wrung most of the answer out of the apparent fog. Nevertheless .... From page 59 of INTERMEDIATE PERL (alpaca book) 1 my @input_numbers = (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64); # $len = @input_numbers; 2 my @indices_of_odd_digit_sums = grep { 3 my $number = $input_numbers[$_]; 4 my $sum; 5 $sum += $_ for split //, $number; 6 $sum % 2; 7 } 0..$#input_numbers; # OR 0..$len; 8 print "\n\t the input nos. @input_numbers"; 9 print "\n\t the index nos. @indices_of_odd_digit_sums of the odd_digit_sums\n\n"; From line 7, just where does the syntax of $#input_numbers come from? The only ref to $# that I find is a deprecated alternative to printf listed in LEARNING PERL (2nd edn. p.134). This evaluates to the same as my $len but must be the only place in perl where # is anything other than a comment marker. I can uncomment the line after line 1 and replace the syntax as commented on line 7, which would be my way and it works fine 0..$input_numbers also works but, as you would know, generates minor warnings. How would I get a non-deprecated alternative that would not entail declaring the scalar $len and not generate any warnings and without code revision before line 7. bestest Anne From nick at cleaton.net Tue Apr 20 21:12:42 2010 From: nick at cleaton.net (Nick Cleaton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:12:42 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] 0..$#input_numbers ??? In-Reply-To: <20100420232537.0dbfed06@pandora.fables.co.za> References: <20100420232537.0dbfed06@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: <1271823162.6481.104.camel@nick-laptop.cleaton.net> On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 23:25 +0200, Anne Wainwright wrote: > As usual, writing a clear email about a problem has wrung most of the > answer out of the apparent fog. Nevertheless .... > > >From page 59 of INTERMEDIATE PERL (alpaca book) > > 1 my @input_numbers = (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64); > # $len = @input_numbers; > 2 my @indices_of_odd_digit_sums = grep { > 3 my $number = $input_numbers[$_]; > 4 my $sum; > 5 $sum += $_ for split //, $number; > 6 $sum % 2; > > 7 } 0..$#input_numbers; # OR 0..$len; Not quite - $#input_numbers is the index of the last element in @input_numbers, whereas $len is the number of elements in @input_numbers. Since arrays are indexed starting from 0, $#input_numbers is one less than $len. > > 8 print "\n\t the input nos. @input_numbers"; > 9 print "\n\t the index nos. @indices_of_odd_digit_sums of the > odd_digit_sums\n\n"; > > > >From line 7, just where does the syntax of $#input_numbers come from? > You don't have a $input_numbers variable there, you have an @input_numbers array. The way $#array works is that you replace the @ at the start of the array name with $# to get the index of the last element. > The only ref to $# that I find is a deprecated alternative to printf > listed in LEARNING PERL (2nd edn. p.134). This evaluates to the same > as my $len but must be the only place in perl where # is anything > other than a comment marker. The deprecated $# variable has nothing to do with the $#array syntax. $#array is not deprecated, it's the right thing to use here. > I can uncomment the line after line 1 and replace the syntax as > commented on line 7, which would be my way and it works fine > > 0..$input_numbers also works but, as you would know, generates minor > warnings. 0..$input_numbers isn't doing what you think - there is no $input_numbers anywhere else in your example. $input_numbers will evaluate to 0 (with a warning) because it's an uninitialised variable, and you'll run the inner code just once rather than once for each array element. This is one of the reasons to get into the habit of starting your scripts with use strict; use warnings; ... as these make it harder to write a script that seems to work but isn't really doing what you think it's doing. Nick From anotheranne at fables.co.za Wed Apr 21 11:25:35 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:25:35 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] 0..$#input_numbers ??? In-Reply-To: <1271823162.6481.104.camel@nick-laptop.cleaton.net> References: <20100420232537.0dbfed06@pandora.fables.co.za> <1271823162.6481.104.camel@nick-laptop.cleaton.net> Message-ID: <20100421202535.307eafdc@pandora.fables.co.za> Hello, Nick, Thanks for the input which has cleared the air, couple of comments below. On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:12:42 +0200 Nick Cleaton wrote: > Note: Beware! Default reply-to is to the list. > On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 23:25 +0200, Anne Wainwright wrote: > > > As usual, writing a clear email about a problem has wrung most of > > the answer out of the apparent fog. Nevertheless .... > > > > >From page 59 of INTERMEDIATE PERL (alpaca book) > > > > 1 my @input_numbers = (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64); > > # $len = @input_numbers; > > 2 my @indices_of_odd_digit_sums = grep { > > 3 my $number = $input_numbers[$_]; > > 4 my $sum; > > 5 $sum += $_ for split //, $number; > > 6 $sum % 2; > > > > 7 } 0..$#input_numbers; # OR 0..$len; > > Not quite - $#input_numbers is the index of the last element in > @input_numbers, whereas $len is the number of elements in > @input_numbers. Since arrays are indexed starting from 0, > $#input_numbers is one less than $len. Yes, I see that. Perl gracefully does not complain if you specify more elements than are actually in the array with $len. I found a reference to $#ARGV in PROGRAMMING PERL so at least I see it in print - important for me at this stage). > > > > > 8 print "\n\t the input nos. @input_numbers"; > > 9 print "\n\t the index nos. @indices_of_odd_digit_sums of the > > odd_digit_sums\n\n"; > > > > > > >From line 7, just where does the syntax of $#input_numbers come > > >from? > > > innocence> > > You don't have a $input_numbers variable there, you have an > @input_numbers array. > > The way $#array works is that you replace the @ at the start of the > array name with $# to get the index of the last element. That is the whole nub of the matter, i had never seen this syntax previously. Useful but odd. > > > The only ref to $# that I find is a deprecated alternative to printf > > listed in LEARNING PERL (2nd edn. p.134). This evaluates to the same > > as my $len but must be the only place in perl where # is anything > > other than a comment marker. > > The deprecated $# variable has nothing to do with the $#array syntax. > $#array is not deprecated, it's the right thing to use here. > > > I can uncomment the line after line 1 and replace the syntax as > > commented on line 7, which would be my way and it works fine > > > > 0..$input_numbers also works but, as you would know, generates minor > > warnings. > > 0..$input_numbers isn't doing what you think - there is no > $input_numbers anywhere else in your example. $input_numbers will > evaluate to 0 (with a warning) because it's an uninitialised variable, > and you'll run the inner code just once rather than once for each > array element. My error, should have said @input_numbers which perl evaluates in a scalar context & does the right thing, under protest. > > This is one of the reasons to get into the habit of starting your > scripts with > > use strict; > use warnings; I'll do that. I always use the -w switch, but am unsure if it is the same as 'use warnings;'. I can see that 'use strict;' is something else entirely. > > ... as these make it harder to write a script that seems to work but > isn't really doing what you think it's doing. > > > Nick From anotheranne at fables.co.za Sun May 2 01:43:30 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 10:43:30 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Fw: [pm_groups] Business Awareness of the Perl programmers Message-ID: <20100502104330.1ad5c67e@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, all, Interesting post from (perlmongers group-leaders mailing list) and related to our earlier thread on Perl, "is Perl on the decline?" I note that our membership is down to 48 from 61 recorded on April Fools Day when I took over the hot-seat. The automagic bounce processing has really kicked in with a slew of removals of dud addresses on the 1st of this month Anne ---------------------------------------- Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 00:49:05 +0300 From: Gabor Szabo To: PM Groups Subject: [pm_groups] Business Awareness of the Perl programmers I did a small research checking the size of the LinkedIN groups of the various programming languages. The conclusion is that the Perl group is way behind the other languages. http://szabgab.com/blog/2010/05/1272792637.html It think it would be time to send out a call to all the PM groups, tell them about LinkedIN and about the Perl Monger group on LinkedIN and how they can join it: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=40830 regards Gabor -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue May 4 10:13:01 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:13:01 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] New membership of one Paul de Smit Message-ID: <20100504191301.2e92a493@pandora.fables.co.za> Hello, Paul, I have just approved your subscription on behalf of za-pm. Welcome. We are not a large group or especially active, but you make no.49 of whom many may be located amongst the za diaspora. Won't you please post a small resume, and then fire away with queries, ideas, etc. Note the listing below of our postings on th Mail-Archive which allows you to make an easy review of recent posts. bestest Anne From paul.desmit at webmail.co.za Wed May 5 02:34:59 2010 From: paul.desmit at webmail.co.za (Paul de Smit) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:34:59 +0200 (SAST) Subject: [za-pm] Cape Town - Permanent Position for Perl Developer Message-ID: <49538.196.210.255.89.1273052099.squirrel@fr.webmail.co.za> Hi everyone, We have a permanent position for a Perl Developer based in Cape Town. Salary between R25 000 and R35 000 per month depending on experience. If you are interested please send your CV to paul.desmit at webmail.co.za Thanks, Paul. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ South Africa's premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For super low premiums, click here http://home.webmail.co.za/dd.pwm From anotheranne at fables.co.za Sun May 9 00:58:49 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 09:58:49 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Poll: What are the most important features of an employer or a job opportunity for you? Message-ID: <20100509095849.6ec72c17@pandora.fables.co.za> FYI. Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 05:11:12 +0300 From: Gabor Szabo To: PM Groups Subject: [pm_groups] Poll: What are the most important features of an employer or a job opportunity for you? Hi all, Recently I talked to many people about an idea on how to improve the communication between companies using Perl and the open source Perl community. Many managers at companies told me the number one problem they are facing with Perl is that they cannot find good Perl developers. On the other hand many good Perl developers I know complain that there are no good Perl jobs on the market. What is the reason for this contradiction? Is this because the job opportunities are in different locations than the developers? Is this because there is a gap in the meaning of "good Perl developer" and "good Perl job"? In order to try to understand the problem I created a small poll trying to figure out what are the expectations of a Perl developer from an employer or a job opportunity. In addition to this poll I am also preparing a white paper for companies to help them understand how they can find more and better Perl developers. If you are interested in it or you would like your boss to read it, please let me know. The poll can be found here: http://perlide.org/polls/the-most-important-features-of-an-employer-or-job-opportunity/ regards ? Gabor ? http://szabgab.com/ -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups From jason at dart.co.za Tue May 11 03:41:00 2010 From: jason at dart.co.za (Jason Armstrong) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:41:00 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Job posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As per the recent discussion regarding Perl positions. Please contact JP van Loggerenberg if you are interested, and feel free to forward to interested parties. Title: ?Senior Linux Perl Administrator We're looking for a highly skilled senior level individual with sound experience in the areas mentioned below. He/She will be exposed to a fast paced environment with little to no room for error where critical decisions will often need to be made on the fly, and accurate input and action to resolve various problems in a professional manner will be essential. The successful candidate must be able to cope in stressful situations and be able to handle conflict professionally. Be able to rapidly adapt to various different aspects and requirements as and where needed. Will often be in the frontline of decision making and play a vital function and an important contribution to the team's success. Have a high self esteem with a positive and a can do attitude. Be a problem solver and solution provider, be able to initiate and follow through with strict deadlines. If you think you meet these requirements, and might want to consider something new with great benefits and a package to match, please send me your CV. Potential package depends on additional skills set met over and above the minimum requirements. Minimum Skill set requirements - 5+ years Linux and FreeBSD server environment experience - In particular Linux RHEL and Ubuntu LTS, but not entirely necessary. ? ? Firewalling/Filtering/Security/Control ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- iptables, PF + ALTQ, IPFW + Dummynet ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Squid Proxy with AD integration ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Spamassasin ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- ClamAV, Kaspersky AV ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Reverse proxies, ie Pound ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Understand security risk and attack strategies. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- ARP spoofing, man in the middle attacks etc. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Vulnerability assessment, protection, fix and manage. ? Monitoring/Reporting/Analysis ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- mrtg, rrdtool, munin etc ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Nagios ? ?Services/Operations ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- DNS, Bind/Named ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Apache web servers ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Exim and Postfix mail servers ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Samba with AD integration ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- NFS ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- PostgreSQL and MySQL, with the emphasis on PostgreSQL ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - This includes optimization and administration ? TCP/IP Networking and security ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Static and Dynamic routing protocols ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Fail over, load balancing an clustering protocols ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Traffic shaping, QoS ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- VPN, Compression tunnels ? Best practice experience in ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- System hardening ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- System and Network level defence strategies ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- System performance optimization ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Standardization practices - Sound Perl programming/scripting experience - Sound experience in TCP/IP networking. Additional (bonus) skills requirements - PHP and Joomla web development and maintenance experience - Programming in C - Network Communications potocol X25 - Serial Communications experience -- Jason Armstrong From anotheranne at fables.co.za Thu May 20 10:40:08 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:40:08 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] The Perl Survey 2010 is now live Message-ID: <20100520194008.2d4272d4@pandora.fables.co.za> FYI Begin forwarded message: Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:34:37 +0300 From: Gabor Szabo To: PM Groups Subject: [pm_groups] The Perl Survey 2010 is now live I have already finished the survey. Please forward to your mailing lists. thank you Gabor ------ From: Kieren Diment The Perl Survey 2010 is now live. Its purpose is to better understand the demographics and opinions of the Perl community. You can complete the survey at http://survey.perlfoundation.org - it should take about 10 to 15 minutes. Once you've done that, please let your relevant friends and colleagues know about the survey so they can coplete it as well. My aim is to get a response of over 1000 individuals, and to run the survey (lightly adapted) every two or three years so we can see how the community changes over time. The official announcement of the survey is here: http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/05/grant-update-the-perl-survey-1.html -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups From anotheranne at fables.co.za Mon Jun 28 13:16:14 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:16:14 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Getting connected to the za-pm website. bitcard, webdav, cadaver, and all that! Message-ID: <20100628221614.6449dba1@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, I have been otherwise for some while, but have finally shed one of my major preoccupations as promised. Now I had also promised pm_groups that I would get our web site up to date. Time for action. Our website. http://za.pm.org/ - which currently is showing a 7 year-old face to the world. I had taken some steps to look at this without any success at an earlier stage. No success then, and none now. First I have to deal with Bitcard. I have a Bitcard account with username and password. Today I added the URL as a site to this. I now have a Site Token & a API secret, both humungous random strings Before this, back in April, I had recorded from somewhere a WebDav user name and password which must have come from somewhere, but not in any email that I find. http://groups.pm.org/faq.html#maintaining_my_groups_website is not particularly clear to me in my present state of knowledge. I downloaded and installed cadaver to connect, but cannot get it to connect to the site using that name and password. Whether the problem is to do with said name and password per se, or with getting the right command line, I cannot say. [I assumed that if I got connected I could 'get' the files and see what was there, which is the whole point of the current exercise.] But no luck. If anyone has the knowledge to baby-step me through this process I'd appreciate some help. I don't understand what is the relationship with these different things. Otherwise I will have to ask for assistance from pm_groups and I would rather not do that - better to cope ourselves I feel. bestest Anne From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Jun 29 11:11:36 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:11:36 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Getting connected to the za-pm website. bitcard, webdav, cadaver, and all that! In-Reply-To: References: <20100628221614.6449dba1@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: <20100629201136.30a9b202@pandora.fables.co.za> Hello, Edoardo, Thanks for the reply. The account has been re-activated according to support at pm.org >- I submitted a DNS request for you (pulling za.pm.org back to our > server) >- I updated our WebDAV control file per the FAQ below I went through the bitcard process and have a new password but things are not changed. thus: anotheranne at pandora:~$ cadaver https://groups.pm.org/groups/za.pm.org WARNING: Untrusted server certificate presented for `groups.pm.org': Issued to: Group Hosting Services, Perl Mongers, Los Angeles, California, US Issued by: Certificate Authority, Develooper, Los Angeles, CA, US Certificate is valid from Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:49 GMT to Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:24:49 GMT Do you wish to accept the certificate? (y/n) y Authentication required for groups.perl.org on server `groups.pm.org': Username: anotheranne Password: Could not open collection: 403 Forbidden dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? ls The `ls' command can only be used when connected to the server. Try running `open' first (see `help open' for more details). dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? help open `open URL' Open connection to given URL dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? open http://za.pm.org/ Could not access / (not WebDAV-enabled?): 405 Method Not Allowed Connection to `za.pm.org' closed. dav:!> ?????? thus not sure where to go next. Maybe support at pm.org are incorrect. Since the za-pm site is visible, it must have been done? What do you think, I want to be certain of my facts before I go back to support at pm.org -- don't want to look a bigger fool than I am ;) Anne (I see you did copy the list) On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:16:20 +0200 Edoardo Sabadelli wrote: > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Anne Wainwright > wrote: > > > Now I had also promised pm_groups that I would get our web site up > > to date. Time for action. Our website. > > > > http://za.pm.org/ > > \o/ > > > First I have to deal with Bitcard. > > I have a Bitcard account with username and password. > > Today I added the URL as a site to this. > > I now have a Site Token & a API secret, both humungous random > > strings > > I'm not sure this is relevant for the WebDAV problem, but AFAIK is > required for changing the account information, reset the password, > etc... > > > Before this, back in April, I had recorded from somewhere a WebDav > > user name and password which must have come from somewhere, but not > > in any email that I find. > > It was probably here: https://svn.perl.org/accounts/, after loggin in > via Bitcard. > > > http://groups.pm.org/faq.html#maintaining_my_groups_website > > > > is not particularly clear to me in my present state of knowledge. > > > > I downloaded and installed cadaver to connect, but cannot get it to > > connect to the site using that name and password. Whether the > > problem is to do with said name and password per se, or with > > getting the right command line, I cannot say. > > I would suggest to try to recover the password and see what happens. > It might be that unused accounts are disabled or something like that. > The URL https://groups.pm.org/groups/za seems working, as it asks me > the username/password for authentication when trying to connect via > WebDAV. > > What kind of error/message is returned when trying to authenticate? > > > [I assumed that if I got connected I could 'get' the files and see > > what was there, which is the whole point of the current exercise.] > > Yes. > > > But no luck. If anyone has the knowledge to baby-step me through > > this process I'd appreciate some help. I don't understand what is > > the relationship with these different things. > > I don't have any direct experience with Bitcard, svn.perl.org, and the > PM groups, but by reading the FAQ you linked and some other stuff on > svn.perl.org and Bitcard, what I understand is that Bitcard is simply > a single sign-on system for different sites under perl.org, while > WebDAV is only a meaning of accessing the group site's static files > hosted on groups.pm.org. > > So, in conclusion, it might only be a problem with the credentials > used in WebDAV, or the account/access has been deactivated... or some > other more intricated problem ;) > > > Otherwise I will have to ask for assistance from pm_groups and I > > would rather not do that - better to cope ourselves I feel. > > It might be that the account has been inactivated, see: > http://groups.pm.org/faq.html#how_do_i_request_a_new_group_or_to_reactivate_a_group_that_has_been_inactive > > HTH, From edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 11:27:16 2010 From: edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com (Edoardo Sabadelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:27:16 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Getting connected to the za-pm website. bitcard, webdav, cadaver, and all that! In-Reply-To: <20100629200810.39bb6364@pandora.fables.co.za> References: <20100628221614.6449dba1@pandora.fables.co.za> <20100629200810.39bb6364@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote: > Hello, Edoardo, Hi! > Thanks for the reply. The account has been re-activated according to > support at pm.org > >>- I submitted a DNS request for you (pulling za.pm.org back to our >> ?server) This sounds a bit strange tho, I think the site has always been online, so I don't understand the "pulling za.pm.org back to our server"... > anotheranne at pandora:~$ cadaver https://groups.pm.org/groups/za.pm.org > WARNING: Untrusted server certificate presented for `groups.pm.org': > Issued to: Group Hosting Services, Perl Mongers, Los Angeles, > California, US > Issued by: Certificate Authority, Develooper, Los Angeles, CA, US > Certificate is valid from Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:49 GMT to Tue, 06 Dec > 2011 11:24:49 GMT > Do you wish to accept the certificate? > (y/n) y > Authentication required for groups.perl.org on server > `groups.pm.org': > Username: anotheranne > Password: > Could not open collection: > 403 Forbidden This error can mean that the authentication fails or that the folder za.pm.org does not exists. >From the FAQ I think it the URL should be https://groups.pm.org/groups/za. Did you try also that? > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? ls > The `ls' command can only be used when connected to the server. > Try running `open' first (see `help open' for more details). > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? help open > ?`open URL' ? Open connection to given URL > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? open http://za.pm.org/ I think the open should not be needed when passing a URL directly to cadaver as argument... > thus not sure where to go next. Maybe support at pm.org are incorrect. > Since the za-pm site is visible, it must have been done? Yes, it must be there. So my suggestion is to try https://groups.pm.org/groups/za. If that still doesn't work, maybe try a different DAV client, I don't have experience with cadaver but it should support https... > ps. I think copy to the list to show activity at least. Yes, sorry, I read the first note in your mail and didn't understand the meaning ;) -- Edoardo From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Jun 29 12:28:23 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 21:28:23 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Getting connected to the za-pm website. bitcard, webdav, cadaver, and all that! In-Reply-To: References: <20100628221614.6449dba1@pandora.fables.co.za> <20100629200810.39bb6364@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: <20100629212823.076f0121@pandora.fables.co.za> Hello, Edoardo, We're in! I've saved that somewhere safe. Thanks, lets look at what we have got. anotheranne at pandora:~$ cadaver https://groups.pm.org/groups/za WARNING: Untrusted server certificate presented for `groups.pm.org': Issued to: Group Hosting Services, Perl Mongers, Los Angeles, California, US Issued by: Certificate Authority, Develooper, Los Angeles, CA, US Certificate is valid from Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:49 GMT to Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:24:49 GMT Do you wish to accept the certificate? (y/n) y Authentication required for groups.perl.org on server `groups.pm.org': Username: anotheranne Password: dav:/groups/za/> ls Listing collection `/groups/za/': succeeded. Coll: articles 0 Jun 7 2003 Coll: images 0 Mar 23 2003 about.html 4438 Mar 23 2003 articles.html 2671 Jun 7 2003 index.html 7499 Jun 7 2003 template.html 1933 Mar 23 2003 updates.tar.gz 12876 Jun 7 2003 www-2003-03-23.tar.gz 8634 Mar 23 2003 dav:/groups/za/> anne On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:27:16 +0200 Edoardo Sabadelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Anne Wainwright > wrote: > > Hello, Edoardo, > > Hi! > > > Thanks for the reply. The account has been re-activated according to > > support at pm.org > > > >>- I submitted a DNS request for you (pulling za.pm.org back to our > >> ?server) > > This sounds a bit strange tho, I think the site has always been > online, so I don't understand the "pulling za.pm.org back to our > server"... > > > anotheranne at pandora:~$ cadaver > > https://groups.pm.org/groups/za.pm.org WARNING: Untrusted server > > certificate presented for `groups.pm.org': Issued to: Group Hosting > > Services, Perl Mongers, Los Angeles, California, US > > Issued by: Certificate Authority, Develooper, Los Angeles, CA, US > > Certificate is valid from Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:49 GMT to Tue, 06 > > Dec 2011 11:24:49 GMT > > Do you wish to accept the certificate? > > (y/n) y > > Authentication required for groups.perl.org on server > > `groups.pm.org': > > Username: anotheranne > > Password: > > Could not open collection: > > 403 Forbidden > > This error can mean that the authentication fails or that the folder > za.pm.org does not exists. > > From the FAQ I think it the URL should be > https://groups.pm.org/groups/za. Did you try also that? > > > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? > > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? ls > > The `ls' command can only be used when connected to the server. > > Try running `open' first (see `help open' for more details). > > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? help open > > ?`open URL' ? Open connection to given URL > > dav:/groups/za.pm.org/? open http://za.pm.org/ > > I think the open should not be needed when passing a URL directly to > cadaver as argument... > > > thus not sure where to go next. Maybe support at pm.org are incorrect. > > Since the za-pm site is visible, it must have been done? > > Yes, it must be there. > So my suggestion is to try https://groups.pm.org/groups/za. > If that still doesn't work, maybe try a different DAV client, I don't > have experience with cadaver but it should support https... > > > ps. I think copy to the list to show activity at least. > > Yes, sorry, I read the first note in your mail and didn't understand > the meaning ;) > From edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 12:39:56 2010 From: edoardo.sabadelli at gmail.com (Edoardo Sabadelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 21:39:56 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Getting connected to the za-pm website. bitcard, webdav, cadaver, and all that! In-Reply-To: <20100629212823.076f0121@pandora.fables.co.za> References: <20100628221614.6449dba1@pandora.fables.co.za> <20100629200810.39bb6364@pandora.fables.co.za> <20100629212823.076f0121@pandora.fables.co.za> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote: > Hello, Edoardo, > > We're in! Yay! \o/ I'm glad it worked :) -- Edoardo From anotheranne at fables.co.za Tue Jun 29 13:55:24 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 22:55:24 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] web site accessed for za-pm and small update made Message-ID: <20100629225524.6ea0d993@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, all, I have just made a small change to the home page to indicate that we are in fact alive. More later. Anne From anotheranne at fables.co.za Wed Jun 30 13:45:47 2010 From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:45:47 +0200 Subject: [za-pm] Future of za-pm, move forward or consolidate present position? Message-ID: <20100630224547.4876b325@pandora.fables.co.za> Hi, Some thought to provoke discussion. We can trundle along as is, I have no issues with that. I like the idea of just a simple za-pm mailing list. Dealing with local folk is preferable to dealing with others who get shirty at a stupid question & there are enough 'RTFM' groups around anyway. We do have a pleasant if small and quiet group. But maybe we should aim for more? So, for first thing, what do we want out of our website. As is, it is pretty basic. We don't actually have need of anything too complex, do we? What do people want on there any way? If we get the equivalent of a Linux 2010 ZA conference then I can add that - or anything else that is relevant - onto there. So if there is any special news that warrants a mention on the site, mention it to me on this list and I'll add it in in the current format. Would it be appropriate to add in potted perl biographies of za-pm members? The Mail Archive that I set up is nice and makes for easy reading of our posts, so I don't see the need for za-pm equivalents of social networking sites - but hey, maybe someone wants to run za-pm on facebook for us! We could have something smarter, but this may involve one of you doing a stint as webmaster. There may be offers available for generic or nearly-so web designs for perl groups at no cost, but they would have to be hosted elsewhere (no fancy Catalyst stuff on perl.org for security reasons - does that say something or does it not?) which in itself is a problem perhaps since unless someone is offering free server space this has to be paid for. Since we are a group well spread out we have issues not apparent to, say, the Cincinatti perl group who have enough interested people to host meetings, barbeques, etc. Geographically we are even in ZA alone diverse, and since many of us are members of the greater za-diaspora living in Europe, the Americas, or Australasia, then we are not going to get together this weekend or even the next for social occasions, so count that idea out. Some groups have enough active members to work on some collaborative project. Do we? These things are meant to be fun, not a drag, and with too few people trying to do too much it does become a drag. If any one has ideas in this direction, speak up. As it happens, for my two-pennyworth, I organised an online vote for a professional society recently. I found only one online site that was set up for small people such as families, clubs & societies - and I dug deep into the pages of google hits. Lots of big commercial operations, but essentially zilch for a 30 member outfit to choose a new committee for the year. Interesting I would think, and since we paid up $25 for needing features not available for free, then profitable even! A perl setup for that as open source could be a project. But then I am sure that you have more vision on the needs of the perl community than I do. So over to you. As noted, I did add a new line or two to the website. I am going to ask on the pm-groups if there is any way that we can spread the word to the za-diaspora for more members. Other than that there is little I can do on my own. If something is really necessary and wanted, then speak up. If we are just going to carry on with no major goal, leaving that to the bigger guys, then that is fine by me too since I would now be sitting on a desert island with my laptop and an inexhaustable supply of batteries if I had a choice. I'm not pushing, just asking. Bestest Anne