From dan.horne at redbone.co.nz Wed May 5 14:06:04 2010 From: dan.horne at redbone.co.nz (Dan Horne) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:06:04 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository Message-ID: Hi all for the last few weeks, I've been having problems connecting to cpan.catalyst.net.nz. I figured it must be a firewall problem with FTP (perhaps active v passive problems), and switched to a different repository in the CPAN shell. However, I just tried downloading a module via the download link on http://search.cpan.org. In the end, it timed out with "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at cpan.catalyst.net.nz." Are there problems with the repository that i should be aware of? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at catalyst.net.nz Wed May 5 14:19:48 2010 From: matt at catalyst.net.nz (Matthew Hunt) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 09:19:48 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE1E0F4.7020705@catalyst.net.nz> Dan Horne wrote: > Hi all > > for the last few weeks, I've been having problems connecting to > cpan.catalyst.net.nz . I figured it must be > a firewall problem with FTP (perhaps active v passive problems), and > switched to a different repository in the CPAN shell. > > However, I just tried downloading a module via the download link on > http://search.cpan.org. In the end, it timed out with "Firefox can't > establish a connection to the server at cpan.catalyst.net.nz > ." Are there problems with the repository > that i should be aware of? Works for me. Obviously, you might notice some bias from my email address; however, I tested from Dreamhost in the States, and that worked fine too. Can you traceroute to the server? Matt. -- Matthew Hunt From grant at mclean.net.nz Wed May 5 14:21:07 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 09:21:07 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 09:06 +1200, Dan Horne wrote: > Hi all > > for the last few weeks, I've been having problems connecting to > cpan.catalyst.net.nz. I figured it must be a firewall problem with FTP > (perhaps active v passive problems), and switched to a different > repository in the CPAN shell. I usually use the HTTP version rather than the FTP one to avoid teh active/passive issues. > However, I just tried downloading a module via the download link on > http://search.cpan.org. In the end, it timed out with "Firefox can't > establish a connection to the server at cpan.catalyst.net.nz." Are > there problems with the repository that i should be aware of? I'm not aware of any problems. Obviously it's working for us here at Catalyst, but I use it from home on my Orcon connection and it was working fine on Tuesday evening when I installed a few modules. Can you perhaps do a tcptraceroute to see where things are going wrong? Cheers Grant From dan.horne at redbone.co.nz Wed May 5 14:37:29 2010 From: dan.horne at redbone.co.nz (Dan Horne) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:37:29 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: Hmm, Maybe it's a Telecom problem - but it seems to be a reasonably long standing one, but very intermittent. The weird thing is, I don't encounter it say from the Auckland Uni repository On 6 May 2010 09:21, Grant McLean wrote: > > Can you perhaps do a tcptraceroute to see where things are going wrong? > > # tcptraceroute cpan.catalyst.net.nz traceroute to cpan.catalyst.net.nz (36.4.1.48), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 mygateway1.ar7 (10.1.1.1) 1.653 ms 2.583 ms 5.582 ms 2 125-xxx.xxx.xxx.jetstream.xtra.co.nz (125..xxx.xxx.xxx) 46.559 ms 47.520 ms 50.502 ms 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * * ... etc ... 29 * * * 30 * * * # But since typing the above, I tried again and now get # tcptraceroute cpan.catalyst.net.nz traceroute to cpan.catalyst.net.nz (202.78.240.39), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 mygateway1.ar7 (10.1.1.1) 0.848 ms 3.798 ms 5.775 ms 2 125 (125.xxx.xxx.xxx) 45.753 ms 50.733 ms 51.715 ms 3 * * * 4 122 (122.56.223.9) 429.634 ms 432.611 ms 433.591 ms 5 fx3.wix.net.nz (202.7.1.175) 609.569 ms 610.548 ms 613.528 ms 6 catalyst (202.7.0.145) 81.515 ms 51.844 ms 52.757 ms 7 cpan.catalyst.net.nz (202.78.240.39) 55.792 ms 51.934 ms 54.957 ms The weird thing is, it's not as if my Internet connection is flaky. All other services have been available... Thanks Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at morphoss.com Wed May 5 16:05:55 2010 From: andrew at morphoss.com (Andrew McMillan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 11:05:55 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: (sfid-20100506_093904_399690_9004E049) References: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> (sfid-20100506_093904_399690_9004E049) Message-ID: <1273100755.25358.117.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 09:37 +1200, Dan Horne wrote: > Hmm, Maybe it's a Telecom problem - but it seems to be a reasonably > long standing one, but very intermittent. The weird thing is, I don't > encounter it say from the Auckland Uni repository > > On 6 May 2010 09:21, Grant McLean wrote: > > Can you perhaps do a tcptraceroute to see where things are > going wrong? > > > # tcptraceroute cpan.catalyst.net.nz > traceroute to cpan.catalyst.net.nz (36.4.1.48), 30 hops max, 40 byte > packets Why on earth was it telling you that cpan.catalyst.net.nz is at 36.4.1.48 ? > > But since typing the above, I tried again and now get > > # tcptraceroute cpan.catalyst.net.nz > traceroute to cpan.catalyst.net.nz (202.78.240.39), 30 hops max, 40 > byte packets > > The weird thing is, it's not as if my Internet connection is flaky. > All other services have been available... Check your DNS resolution, I would think. Cheers, Andrew. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ andrew (AT) morphoss (DOT) com +64(272)DEBIAN You will gain money by a speculation or lottery. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From grant at mclean.net.nz Wed May 5 16:11:34 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 11:11:34 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: <1273100755.25358.117.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> References: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> (sfid-20100506_093904_399690_9004E049) <1273100755.25358.117.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> Message-ID: <1273101094.9460.12.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 11:05 +1200, Andrew McMillan wrote: > On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 09:37 +1200, Dan Horne wrote: > > # tcptraceroute cpan.catalyst.net.nz > > traceroute to cpan.catalyst.net.nz (36.4.1.48), 30 hops max, 40 byte > > packets > > Why on earth was it telling you that cpan.catalyst.net.nz is at > 36.4.1.48 ? Well spotted Andrew. The IP address for cpan.catalyst.net.nz is 202.78.240.39 and it certainly hasn't been changing. I wonder if there's some funky transparent proxying going on. Or maybe even a DNS server with a corrupted cache. Very odd. Grant From dan.horne at redbone.co.nz Wed May 5 17:16:54 2010 From: dan.horne at redbone.co.nz (Dan Horne) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 12:16:54 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Connecting to Perl repository In-Reply-To: <1273101094.9460.12.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <1273094467.9460.7.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <1273100755.25358.117.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> <1273101094.9460.12.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: Yeah, I guess it is a cache corruption because the problem isn't consistent. Anyway, I've redirected to another dns server, and everything's working Thanks for all of your help. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Thu May 6 14:37:49 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:37:49 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] any small contracts around? Message-ID: hi, anyone aware of any small contracts? i have a bit of time at my hands in the moment that would suite a small project or helping out at a larger one. i am currently in the usual contractor waiting loop for some larger projects but as usual no one wants to decide anything and contractors are expected to be available when they finally make up their minds :-) happy to provide what ever is needed in terms of CV or references but most of you on this list should know me anyway :-) cheers lenz From grant at mclean.net.nz Sun May 9 15:49:30 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:49:30 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Meeting Tomorrow Evening Message-ID: <1273445370.31528.10.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Hi Mongers The next meeting of Wellington Perl Mongers is scheduled for tomorrow evening (Tuesday May 11th). We have three talks lined up: * Lenz Gschwendtner - Mojolicious [1] * Lars Wirzenius - Wellington.pm library in Koha [2] * Grant McLean - Intro to Clutter [3] Time and place are as normal: 6:00pm Tuesday 11 May 2010 Level 3, Catalyst House 150 Willis Street Wellington See you there. Cheers Grant [1] http://mojolicious.org/ [2] http://koha-community.org/ [3] http://search.cpan.org/dist/Clutter/ From grant at mclean.net.nz Mon May 10 19:04:43 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:04:43 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Meeting Tomorrow Evening In-Reply-To: <1273445370.31528.10.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <1273445370.31528.10.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <1273543483.14585.2.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> The meeting is this evening. Expect last-minute changes to the lineup :-) Cheers Grant On Mon, 2010-05-10 at 10:49 +1200, Grant McLean wrote: > Hi Mongers > > The next meeting of Wellington Perl Mongers is scheduled for tomorrow > evening (Tuesday May 11th). We have three talks lined up: > > * Lenz Gschwendtner - Mojolicious [1] > * Lars Wirzenius - Wellington.pm library in Koha [2] > * Grant McLean - Intro to Clutter [3] > > Time and place are as normal: > > 6:00pm Tuesday 11 May 2010 > Level 3, Catalyst House > 150 Willis Street > Wellington > > See you there. > > Cheers > Grant > > [1] http://mojolicious.org/ > [2] http://koha-community.org/ > [3] http://search.cpan.org/dist/Clutter/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Tue May 11 14:39:35 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:39:35 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] slides from yesterday Message-ID: hi, my slides from yesterday are online as usual on my blog: http://norbu09.org/2010/05/12/slides-from-mojolicious-talk.html cheers lenz From grant at mclean.net.nz Tue May 11 15:12:49 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 10:12:49 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] slides from yesterday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1273615969.3807.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Thanks Lenz My slides are up on the web site now too and I'm sure you'll all be thrilled to hear that I fixed my segfault problem :-) http://wellington.pm.org/archive/ The next meeting will be on June the 8th. Let me know if you'd like to book a slot to speak. Cheers Grant On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 09:39 +1200, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote: > hi, > > my slides from yesterday are online as usual on my blog: http://norbu09.org/2010/05/12/slides-from-mojolicious-talk.html > > cheers > lenz > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From grant at mclean.net.nz Thu May 20 14:14:18 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 09:14:18 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] [Fwd: The Perl Survey 2010 is now live] Message-ID: <1274390058.17358.0.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Kieren Diment > > The Perl Survey 2010 is now live. Its purpose is to better understand > the demographics and opinions of the Perl community. You can complete > the survey at http://survey.perlfoundation.org - it should take about > 10 to 15 minutes. Once you've done that, please let your relevant > friends and colleagues know about the survey so they can coplete it as > well. My aim is to get a response of over 1000 individuals, and to > run the survey (lightly adapted) every two or three years so we can > see how the community changes over time. The official announcement of > the survey is here: > http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/05/grant-update-the-perl-survey-1.html From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Tue May 25 16:43:14 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:43:14 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] NoSQL erm ... winter Message-ID: <4C08759B-F3B0-412B-8032-036549111EDF@gschwendtner.eu> hi mongers, thought there might be some interest in the perl community as well: http://nosqlsummer.org/city/wellington the whole summer thing does not really work out but i figured there is a fair amount of NoSQL interest in Wellington so feel free to sign up. once i know rough numbers i try to find a venue that suites. feel free to share on other lists as well, forward to friends and family, make it a NoSQL event we never saw before (kids under 18 might need the approval of a parent for various venues that serve beer) cheers lenz From grant at mclean.net.nz Thu May 27 15:23:41 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:23:41 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed Message-ID: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Hi Mongers Catalyst are on the lookout for at least one full time Perl developer (permanent, not contract). If you're interested, send me your CV and I'll forward it on to the right people. Cheers Grant From LRW at clear.net.nz Fri May 28 15:41:10 2010 From: LRW at clear.net.nz (Lesley Longhurst) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 10:41:10 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed In-Reply-To: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: Unlikely, but just in case - you probably DON'T want to hire my former colleague, Dave Mason, unless you're up for teaching old dogs new tricks. Nice guy, bad programmer. On 28/05/2010, at 10:23 AM, Grant McLean wrote: > Hi Mongers > > Catalyst are on the lookout for at least one full time Perl developer > (permanent, not contract). If you're interested, send me your CV and > I'll forward it on to the right people. > > Cheers > Grant > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From dale.durose at gmail.com Sat May 29 00:44:57 2010 From: dale.durose at gmail.com (dale.durose) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 19:44:57 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? Message-ID: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Hello Mongers I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system administrators out there? ~ Dale From nick at dunlopia.com Sat May 29 02:24:31 2010 From: nick at dunlopia.com (Nick Dunlop) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:24:31 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: I suspect there is a lot of it sitting in the background. In my role looking after Redhat Linux systems for a govt agency we have a lot of it in the form of utility scripts around system administration. Esp for backup related stuff. I also tend to use it a lot for quick and dirty adhoc scripts for munging data - because i'm more comfortable with it than shell scripting and its easier than writing stuff in java. Although I have been using python and groovy a bit recently.. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 7:44 PM, dale.durose wrote: > Hello Mongers > > I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand IT > industry? I know in the past it was used for most web applications. So i > imagine its holding strong with the system administrators out there? > > > ~ Dale > > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grant at mclean.net.nz Sat May 29 04:24:20 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 23:24:20 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1275132260.6444.198.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 19:44 +1200, dale.durose wrote: > Hello Mongers > > I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand > IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web applications. > So i imagine its holding strong with the system administrators out there? That's a tough question to answer. I can really only speak from my own experience and say that it's very common for people at my place of work to use Perl. However there's nothing terribly typical about my place of work so take that with a grain of salt :-) We use Perl for all sorts of application development. Much of it with a strong leaning towards web technologies, but Perl is and always has been a great glue language for integrating disparate systems. Cheers Grant From andychilton at gmail.com Sat May 29 04:34:52 2010 From: andychilton at gmail.com (Andrew Chilton) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 23:34:52 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <1275132260.6444.198.camel@localhost> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <1275132260.6444.198.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Dale, On 29 May 2010 23:24, Grant McLean wrote: > We use Perl for all sorts of application development. ?Much of it with a > strong leaning towards web technologies, but Perl is and always has been > a great glue language for integrating disparate systems. Might I add to this also. Not only do we use it for many projects at work (I work at the same place as Grant), I also find it is the language to go to (personal experience) for pretty much all of my own command line tools too, whether they be 100 lines long or thousands of lines long. And the odd one liner too. As always, Perl is probably used more than what is under-represented in all those new funky surveys people tend to see these days. I almost want to change that classical T-Shirt "Open Source runs your business" to "Perl runs your business". :) Andy -- contact: Andrew Chilton website: http://www.chilts.org/blog/ From jethro.carr at jethrocarr.com Sat May 29 04:41:07 2010 From: jethro.carr at jethrocarr.com (Jethro Carr) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 23:41:07 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1275133267.10996.1836.camel@laptop-jethro.local.amberdms.com> On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 19:44 +1200, dale.durose wrote: > Hello Mongers > > I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand > IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web applications. > So i imagine its holding strong with the system administrators out there? hi Dale, I'm not doing so much Perl these days, most of our work is PHP-based web applications. But it's certainly still around and I'm still using it in some new projects, mainly: * System-side applications * Things involving lots of regex, * Where there is a specific module that will make life easier. regards, jethro -- Jethro Carr www.jethrocarr.com/index.php?cms=blog www.amberdms.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From enkidu at cliffp.com Sat May 29 15:44:11 2010 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliff Pratt) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:44:11 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: > > I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new > zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web > applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system > administrators out there? > I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something like PHP would be more likely used for that. We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. Cheers, Cliff From dale.durose at gmail.com Sat May 29 18:05:04 2010 From: dale.durose at gmail.com (Dale DuRose) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 13:05:04 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> Message-ID: <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even longer than 10. On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: > On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >> >> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new >> zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >> administrators out there? >> > I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". > Something like PHP would be more likely used for that. > > We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. > > Cheers, > > Cliff > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From daniel at rimspace.net Sat May 29 18:30:27 2010 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:30:27 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> (Dale DuRose's message of "Sun, 30 May 2010 13:05:04 +1200") References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> Dale DuRose writes: > On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: >> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >>> >>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new >>> zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>> administrators out there? >>> >> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something like >> PHP would be more likely used for that. >> >> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. > > About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even longer > than 10. Heh. History. You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation that PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI things that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't believe you. Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was up-hill both ways. Daniel Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. These days? Big in a whole bunch of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a serious one. It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer the cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work done. -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel at rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From dale.durose at gmail.com Sat May 29 18:46:13 2010 From: dale.durose at gmail.com (Dale DuRose) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 13:46:13 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> Whats the cool languages these days? I've away just adapted to what the organization I'm working for is using. I dont really have any favorite language. I hate every language for its bad quirks. But i really hate python big time. On 30/05/2010 1:30 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: > Dale DuRose writes: > >> On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: >> >>> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >>> >>>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new >>>> zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>>> administrators out there? >>>> >>>> >>> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something like >>> PHP would be more likely used for that. >>> >>> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. >>> >> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even longer >> than 10. >> > Heh. History. You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation that > PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI things > that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't believe > you. > > Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was > up-hill both ways. > > Daniel > > Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. These days? Big in a whole bunch > of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a serious > one. > > It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer the > cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work done. > From msh.computing at gmail.com Sat May 29 18:49:24 2010 From: msh.computing at gmail.com (Steve Kieu) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:49:24 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ruby looks promising. I have been learning it for several days and feel that I has the power of most of others (perl, python, java, etc..) The downside of it is that it does not get installed by default in my Lucid desktop :-( On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Dale DuRose wrote: > Whats the cool languages these days? > > I've away just adapted to what the organization I'm working for is using. I > dont really have any favorite language. I hate every language for its bad > quirks. But i really hate python big time. > > > > On 30/05/2010 1:30 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: > >> Dale DuRose writes: >> >> >>> On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new >>>>> zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>>>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>>>> administrators out there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something >>>> like >>>> PHP would be more likely used for that. >>>> >>>> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. >>>> >>>> >>> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even >>> longer >>> than 10. >>> >>> >> Heh. History. You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation >> that >> PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI >> things >> that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't >> believe >> you. >> >> Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was >> up-hill both ways. >> >> Daniel >> >> Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. These days? Big in a whole >> bunch >> of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a >> serious >> one. >> >> It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer >> the >> cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work >> done. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm > -- SK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at rimspace.net Sat May 29 19:19:19 2010 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:19:19 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: (Steve Kieu's message of "Sun, 30 May 2010 11:49:24 +1000") References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <876326gmhk.fsf@rimspace.net> Steve Kieu writes: Ruby (and/or Rails, which might be enough to count as a different language, depending on how you look at it). PHP. Was that even in question? Go, Scala, and Groovy also look to be fairly high on the hype scale, though none have really made that breakthrough. > Ruby looks promising. I have been learning it for several days and feel that > I has the power of most of others (perl, python, java, etc..) Just don't fall for their "objects all the way" and "meta-programming" bollocks; when you start to poke at it each interpreter is randomly different, but they pretty much all make it impossible to do serious meta-programming because the internals are randomly incoherent and contain strange bundles of oddly thrown together code. It isn't terrible, I grant you, but it surely is not as impressive as their marketing makes out. (Not, really, that any language is. :) > The downside of it is that it does not get installed by default in my Lucid > desktop :-( > > On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Dale DuRose wrote: > >> Whats the cool languages these days? >> >> I've away just adapted to what the organization I'm working for is using. I >> dont really have any favorite language. I hate every language for its bad >> quirks. But i really hate python big time. >> >> On 30/05/2010 1:30 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: >> >>> Dale DuRose ?writes: ? >>> >>>> On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: ? ? >>>> >>>>> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: ? ? ? >>>>> >>>>>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand >>>>>> IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>>>>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>>>>> administrators out there? >>>>>> >>>>>> ? ? ? ? >>>>> >>>>> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something >>>>> like PHP would be more likely used for that. >>>>> >>>>> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. ? ? ? >>>> >>>> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even >>>> longer than 10. ? ? >>> >>> Heh. ?History. ?You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation >>> that PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI >>> things that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't >>> believe you. >>> >>> Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was >>> up-hill both ways. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? Daniel >>> >>> Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. ?These days? ?Big in a whole >>> bunch of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a >>> serious one. >>> >>> It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer >>> the cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work >>> done. ? >> >> _______________________________________________ Wellington-pm mailing list >> Wellington-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm >> -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel at rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From dale.durose at gmail.com Sat May 29 19:33:11 2010 From: dale.durose at gmail.com (Dale DuRose) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 14:33:11 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <876326gmhk.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> <876326gmhk.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4C01CE67.3000300@gmail.com> I found ruby to be a nice toy but i've never wanted to use it for any projects i'm working on. I've meet programmers who think is its just wonderful but only do one project in it then just move onto something else or go back to there old languages. But being a freebsd guy i've seen ruby being used more and more used for sysadmin tools. The bottom line is if the language get the job done then its worth while. On 30/05/2010 2:19 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: > Steve Kieu writes: > > Ruby (and/or Rails, which might be enough to count as a different language, > depending on how you look at it). PHP. Was that even in question? > > Go, Scala, and Groovy also look to be fairly high on the hype scale, though > none have really made that breakthrough. > > >> Ruby looks promising. I have been learning it for several days and feel that >> I has the power of most of others (perl, python, java, etc..) >> > Just don't fall for their "objects all the way" and "meta-programming" > bollocks; when you start to poke at it each interpreter is randomly different, > but they pretty much all make it impossible to do serious meta-programming > because the internals are randomly incoherent and contain strange bundles of > oddly thrown together code. > > It isn't terrible, I grant you, but it surely is not as impressive as their > marketing makes out. (Not, really, that any language is. :) > > >> The downside of it is that it does not get installed by default in my Lucid >> desktop :-( >> >> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Dale DuRose wrote: >> >> >>> Whats the cool languages these days? >>> >>> I've away just adapted to what the organization I'm working for is using. I >>> dont really have any favorite language. I hate every language for its bad >>> quirks. But i really hate python big time. >>> >>> On 30/05/2010 1:30 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dale DuRose writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand >>>>>>> IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>>>>>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>>>>>> administrators out there? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something >>>>>> like PHP would be more likely used for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. >>>>>> >>>>> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even >>>>> longer than 10. >>>>> >>>> Heh. History. You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation >>>> that PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI >>>> things that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't >>>> believe you. >>>> >>>> Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was >>>> up-hill both ways. >>>> >>>> Daniel >>>> >>>> Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. These days? Big in a whole >>>> bunch of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a >>>> serious one. >>>> >>>> It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer >>>> the cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work >>>> done. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ Wellington-pm mailing list >>> Wellington-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm >>> >>> > From dan.horne at redbone.co.nz Sun May 30 11:10:19 2010 From: dan.horne at redbone.co.nz (Dan Horne) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 06:10:19 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C01CE67.3000300@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> <876326gmhk.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01CE67.3000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 30/05/2010 2:19 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: > >> Ruby looks promising. I have been learning it for several days and feel >>> that >>> I has the power of most of others (perl, python, java, etc..) >>> >>> >> Just don't fall for their "objects all the way" and "meta-programming" >> bollocks; when you start to poke at it each interpreter is randomly >> different, >> but they pretty much all make it impossible to do serious meta-programming >> because the internals are randomly incoherent and contain strange bundles >> of >> oddly thrown together code. >> >> It isn't terrible, I grant you, but it surely is not as impressive as >> their >> marketing makes out. (Not, really, that any language is. :) >> >> Perl provides fab Meta Programming functionality via Moose (or more specifically, Class::MOP). It's complete and elegant, and abstracts away Perl's crufty bits ... so you don't have to wonder about whether "the internals are randomly incoherent and contain strange bundles of oddly thrown together code." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Sun May 30 14:11:32 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:11:32 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> to come back to your initial question; we use perl for all our frontend development which is either catalyst or more recently for some small trials mojolicious. backend wise we use perl and erlang and especially erlang is always worth a look at :-) perl is far from dead it only grew from a hyped scripting language to a working major language. you'll most probably see not to much c++ hype or someone overly excited about java. in terms of active developers in the space perl is quite well set i think. there are some really neat frameworks for web development and i see no real need to pick up any of the currently hyped languages for my day-to-day development. learning a new language is always worth it though but i would go for a functional language in that case. it stretches your mind way more and improves your day-to-day programming - in whatever language that is - remarkably. cheers lenz On 29/05/2010, at 7:44 PM, dale.durose wrote: > Hello Mongers > > I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system administrators out there? > > > ~ Dale > > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From enkidu at cliffp.com Sun May 30 14:28:53 2010 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliff Pratt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:28:53 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4C02D895.30405@cliffp.com> On 30/05/10 13:30, Daniel Pittman wrote: > Dale DuRose writes: >> On 30/05/2010 10:44 a.m., Cliff Pratt wrote: >>> On 29/05/10 19:44, dale.durose wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a question is perl still being used commonly in the new >>>> zealand IT industry? I know in the past it was used for most web >>>> applications. So i imagine its holding strong with the system >>>> administrators out there? >>>> >>> I'd be surprised if it were "used for most web applications". Something like >>> PHP would be more likely used for that. >>> >>> We use it mostly for sysadmin stuff. >> >> About 10 years ago it was used for most web applications. Maybe even longer >> than 10. > > Heh. History. You tell the kids today that Perl once had the reputation that > PHP has, that it was used for all those awful throw-away one-shot CGI things > that were the bane of security administrators lives, and they don't believe > you. > Cheeky sod! My first Web Server was downloaded from NCSA. It came with one or two shell scripts to demonstrate CGI, but, so far as I can remember, no Perl. > > Back then we had to hand-code our requests out of CGI.pm, too, and it was > up-hill both ways. > Well, originally (and it is still the case) CGI programs read Standard Input and wrote to Standard Output. Arguably Perl CGI.pm obscures much of the detail. > > Seriously: Perl was, once, the king of CGI. These days? Big in a whole bunch > of places, mostly by virtue of graduating from a "cool" language to a serious > one. > > It joins FORTRAN, COBOL, C, C++, and other luminaries that are no longer the > cool way to do exciting new things, but which get plenty of real work done. > No doubt. I still use Perl CGI on a daily basis. Cheers, Cliff From enkidu at cliffp.com Sun May 30 14:34:32 2010 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliff Pratt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:34:32 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> Message-ID: <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> On 31/05/10 09:11, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote: > > learning a new language is always worth it though but i would go for > a functional language in that case. it stretches your mind way more > and improves your day-to-day programming - in whatever language that > is - remarkably. > Functional? In what sense? One that works properly ('is functional') or one that use functions ('procedural')? I'm not sure that I'd agree with the last meaning. I'd always go for an Object Oriented language over a procedural one, if possible. Cheers, Cliff From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Sun May 30 14:42:40 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:42:40 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> Message-ID: <9819D9CF-0AB2-4FA8-830E-D1F5A9B8624C@gschwendtner.eu> On 31/05/2010, at 9:34 AM, Cliff Pratt wrote: > Functional? In what sense? One that works properly ('is functional') or one that use functions ('procedural')? > > I'm not sure that I'd agree with the last meaning. I'd always go for an Object Oriented language over a procedural one, if possible. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming erlang or haskell are a good start here :-) cheers lenz From grant at mclean.net.nz Sun May 30 14:43:59 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:43:59 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> Message-ID: <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> On Mon, 2010-05-31 at 09:34 +1200, Cliff Pratt wrote: > On 31/05/10 09:11, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote: > > > > learning a new language is always worth it though but i would go for > > a functional language in that case. it stretches your mind way more > > and improves your day-to-day programming - in whatever language that > > is - remarkably. > > > Functional? In what sense? One that works properly ('is functional') or > one that use functions ('procedural')? > > I'm not sure that I'd agree with the last meaning. I'd always go for an > Object Oriented language over a procedural one, if possible. I don't know that I'd 'always' go for OO over procedural (aka 'imperative'), but Lenz was actually talking about functional as in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming Functional languages include Lisp, Scheme, Haskell Erlang etc. There are numerous advantages to the functional programming approach and Perl has borrowed a number of the features. Arguably the fact that Perl allows elements of imperative, object oriented and functional styles (all in the same program) is one of the things that makes it seem alien to say Java coders. Cheers Grant From lenz at gschwendtner.eu Sun May 30 14:49:33 2010 From: lenz at gschwendtner.eu (Lenz Gschwendtner) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:49:33 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <13FD0C13-2EFF-495A-9572-6430E0EE01FC@gschwendtner.eu> actually ... simply reading "higher order perl" helps looking down that track quite a bit as well ... perl can be used in a quite functional way (as in functional programming). cheers lenz From grant at mclean.net.nz Sun May 30 14:55:50 2010 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:55:50 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <13FD0C13-2EFF-495A-9572-6430E0EE01FC@gschwendtner.eu> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <13FD0C13-2EFF-495A-9572-6430E0EE01FC@gschwendtner.eu> Message-ID: <1275256550.5628.10.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> On Mon, 2010-05-31 at 09:49 +1200, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote: > actually ... simply reading "higher order perl" helps looking down > that track quite a bit as well ... perl can be used in a quite > functional way (as in functional programming). Yeah that's a great book - which we have in the Wellington.pm library. And of course 'the other' programming paradigm which I omitted to mention was declarative (ala Prolog). Once again Perl has incorporated elements of this style too with regular expressions being a core part of the language. Perl 6 junctions move further in that direction. And of course many Perl programs include chunks of SQL which is very much a declarative language. Cheers Grant From lrw at clear.net.nz Sun May 30 17:59:21 2010 From: lrw at clear.net.nz (Lesley Longhurst) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 12:59:21 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed In-Reply-To: References: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <4C0309E9.6080403@clear.net.nz> On 29/05/10 10:41, Lesley Longhurst wrote: > [stuff that should have been kept private] Dammit, I did not intend that to go to the list. I thought I had sent it only to Grant. Sorry for broadcasting it. Lesley. From daniel at rimspace.net Sun May 30 18:19:58 2010 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 11:19:58 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: (Dan Horne's message of "Mon, 31 May 2010 06:10:19 +1200") References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <4C0198BB.5040003@cliffp.com> <4C01B9C0.6050408@gmail.com> <87r5kugor0.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01C365.8060107@gmail.com> <876326gmhk.fsf@rimspace.net> <4C01CE67.3000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87ljb0kgu9.fsf@rimspace.net> Dan Horne writes: >> On 30/05/2010 2:19 p.m., Daniel Pittman wrote: >> >>>> Ruby looks promising. I have been learning it for several days and feel >>>> that I has the power of most of others (perl, python, java, etc..) ? ? >>> >>> Just don't fall for their "objects all the way" and "meta-programming" >>> bollocks; when you start to poke at it each interpreter is randomly >>> different, but they pretty much all make it impossible to do serious >>> meta-programming because the internals are randomly incoherent and contain >>> strange bundles of oddly thrown together code. >>> >>> It isn't terrible, I grant you, but it surely is not as impressive as their >>> marketing makes out. ?(Not, really, that any language is. :) > > Perl provides fab Meta Programming functionality via Moose (or more > specifically, Class::MOP). It's complete and elegant, and abstracts away > Perl's crufty bits ... Hah. Tell me how I use a non-standard method combination, or what a decent API to one would look like, and I will be less reluctant to agree. ;) It does a great job of being a reasonable meta-programming environment that is absolutely compatible with the stock Perl OO model, though. > so you don't have to wonder about whether "the internals are randomly > incoherent and contain strange bundles of oddly thrown together code." Seriously, though, the "Perl Enlightenment", of which Moose is a part, is doing a lot to improve Perl5. The new release schedule upstream, also, is helping move it forward quickly and see more enhancements. Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel at rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From dave at thinktank.co.nz Sun May 30 18:23:15 2010 From: dave at thinktank.co.nz (Dave Moskovitz) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 13:23:15 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed In-Reply-To: <4C0309E9.6080403@clear.net.nz> References: =?US-ASCII?Q?=3C1274999021=2E31861=2E3=2Ecamel=40putnam?= =?US-ASCII?Q?=2Ewgtn=2Ecat-it=2Eco=2Enz=3E=0D=0A=09=3CE11CFD1F-639?= =?US-ASCII?Q?2-4861-8E8E-4A97465BB26F=40clear=2Enet?= =?US-ASCII?Q?=2Enz=3E_=3C4C0309E9=2E6080403=40clear=2Enet=2Enz=3E?= Message-ID: <07260557-cfd0-401c-b19f-7ed73ea9c913@email.android.com> Such an infraction contributed to a friend's suicide just over 10 years ago. Please be careful when using lists, people! "Lesley Longhurst" wrote: >On 29/05/10 10:41, Lesley Longhurst wrote: >> [stuff that should have been kept private] > >Dammit, I did not intend that to go to the list. I thought I had sent it >only to Grant. Sorry for broadcasting it. > >Lesley. > >_______________________________________________ >Wellington-pm mailing list >Wellington-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm From daniel at rimspace.net Sun May 30 18:26:13 2010 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 11:26:13 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> (Grant McLean's message of "Mon, 31 May 2010 09:43:59 +1200") References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> <4C02D9E8.4050809@cliffp.com> <1275255839.5628.6.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <87hblokgju.fsf@rimspace.net> Grant McLean writes: > On Mon, 2010-05-31 at 09:34 +1200, Cliff Pratt wrote: >> On 31/05/10 09:11, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote: >> > >> > learning a new language is always worth it though but i would go for >> > a functional language in that case. it stretches your mind way more >> > and improves your day-to-day programming - in whatever language that >> > is - remarkably. >> >> Functional? In what sense? One that works properly ('is functional') or one >> that use functions ('procedural')? >> >> I'm not sure that I'd agree with the last meaning. I'd always go for an >> Object Oriented language over a procedural one, if possible. > > I don't know that I'd 'always' go for OO over procedural (aka > 'imperative'), but Lenz was actually talking about functional as in: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming > > Functional languages include Lisp, Scheme, Haskell Erlang etc. There are > numerous advantages to the functional programming approach and Perl has > borrowed a number of the features. For what it is worth, my list of "languages every developer should learn" is: Learn C, and then an assembly language, to teach you the fine details of how machines work inside ? and because knowing something at that level is going to be of ongoing value to you over the years. When you understand how to implement your own thread library you probably know it well enough to get by. Learn a functional programming language, ideally a Lisp or Scheme, including their macro transformation languages and styles. You probably know it well enough when you look at languages adding syntax for something and die a little bit inside. (Writing your own meta-object protocol is a good step, too.) Learn a stack-based language, like PostScript or Forth; the later is a better choice, since it is the same idea as Lisp but the literal opposite implementation decision. You probably know it well enough when you understand exactly why Forth and Lisp are the same idea, differently spelled. Learn JavaScript; you know it well enough when you understand why a prototype based object system is cool, since it is the third of the two OO styles. > Arguably the fact that Perl allows elements of imperative, object oriented > and functional styles (all in the same program) is one of the things that > makes it seem alien to say Java coders. *nod* Though, recent Java has moved to introduce more features like closures, so they are not /entirely/ blind to the attraction... Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel at rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From BFDnowayfu2aDM4VF5 at perform.nospymail.com Sun May 30 18:46:13 2010 From: BFDnowayfu2aDM4VF5 at perform.nospymail.com (BFDnowayfu2aDM4VF5 at perform.nospymail.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:46:13 -0400 Subject: [Wellington-pm] How much perl is out there? In-Reply-To: <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> References: <4C00C5F9.4080504@gmail.com> <9AB7308A-E9A6-47E6-AAD1-6CAB50C046FB@gschwendtner.eu> Message-ID: what ever happened that I missed, that stream of mongering was poetry to observe and listen to ... From andrew at morphoss.com Sun May 30 19:08:58 2010 From: andrew at morphoss.com (Andrew McMillan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:08:58 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed In-Reply-To: <4C0309E9.6080403@clear.net.nz> (sfid-20100531_130017_319077_AE5BC78E) References: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <4C0309E9.6080403@clear.net.nz> (sfid-20100531_130017_319077_AE5BC78E) Message-ID: <1275271738.3820.1178.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> On Mon, 2010-05-31 at 12:59 +1200, Lesley Longhurst wrote: > On 29/05/10 10:41, Lesley Longhurst wrote: > > [stuff that should have been kept private] > > Dammit, I did not intend that to go to the list. I thought I had sent it > only to Grant. Sorry for broadcasting it. Yet another illustration of why reply-to munging is braindead, and should be banned from the intarwebs. Commiserations, Andrew, who has also been bitten by the same problem in the last month, on a list run by InternetNZ... though not in *quite* such an explicit manner. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ andrew (AT) morphoss (DOT) co (DOT) nz +64(272)DEBIAN Building more free and open source software for New Zealanders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sam at vilain.net Sun May 30 20:23:01 2010 From: sam at vilain.net (Sam Vilain) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 15:23:01 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Perl developer(s) needed In-Reply-To: <1275271738.3820.1178.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> References: <1274999021.31861.3.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <4C0309E9.6080403@clear.net.nz> (sfid-20100531_130017_319077_AE5BC78E) <1275271738.3820.1178.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz> Message-ID: <4C032B95.9050808@vilain.net> Andrew McMillan wrote: > Yet another illustration of why reply-to munging is braindead, and > should be banned from the intarwebs. > > Commiserations, > > Andrew, who has also been bitten by the same problem in the last month, > on a list run by InternetNZ... though not in *quite* such an explicit > manner. Come on, surely if you are doing something bad and you don't want people to find out then you just shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Seriously though: those sorts of remarks have a shelf-life, and it should be quite short. It is not in the benefits of the community at large to be spreading rumours - however well founded in fact - about perceived problems with others. And sometimes people change. Sam