From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Jul  1 08:16:36 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:16:36 -0400
Subject: [tpm] World fame at last!
Message-ID: <5d39102a3fbf6dc4ce2c3287c778b499.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


Olaf's blog post about our Google Hangout experiment earned a mention in
Gabor's "Perl Weekly" http://perlweekly.com/archive/101.html


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 20:01:52 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:01:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] July 25th, 2013 TPM Meeting
In-Reply-To: <B42CD556-B57F-42AA-88BF-38E152453A19@stok.ca>
References: <2c13f8b2d1edfdfd3b225e1fcc1bcd3b.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<1370636532.22584.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01ce6641$52126e10$f6374a30$@ca>
	<B42CD556-B57F-42AA-88BF-38E152453A19@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE9Lkt2MCziKLoS_3AsjiHXyX+pvjAK2R-odeGWzNvYEHw@mail.gmail.com>

Have we come to a consensus on the topic Michelle will be speaking about?
 I've setup a meetup.com profile and need to put a blurb for this meeting.
 We have that yet?
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 21:19:41 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:19:41 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
Message-ID: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>

I've just updated the site with the scheduled talks for 2013.  Here are the weak points:

The meetings proper:

1) Still waiting back for a confirmation from Jordan + synopsis of Michelle's talk in July
2) Still waiting for confirmation of a Damian talk in August
3) If you're giving a lightning talk, please fill in your talk's topic as it comes to you
4) The October meeting would normally fall on the 31st, but Hallowe'en seems like a really inconvenient night, so I've moved the meeting to the week before as a pre-emptive measure.  We can always move it back to the 31st if that's what people want to do
5) I don't have a synopsis for Tom's talk in October.  Tom, could you add that to the web site and push it to Github?  Let me know when it's done and I'll deploy the changes.

The web site:

1) It's not obvious to me how hrefs are supposed to work.  You can see here when the XML is parsed that it moves the embedded link to the beginning of the HTML: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/  i.e., it moves it outside of the <content> tags.

2) The app assumes that we'll never have it together enough to plan more than one meeting, so the last meeting is what it assumes is the upcoming one.  So, the site currently lists the December social as our upcoming meeting

I've already spent a great deal of time just filling in the talk info (thought it would be easier).  If anyone could help troubleshooting + updating content, that would be great.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 21:22:58 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:22:58 -0400
Subject: [tpm] web site + xml issues
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <085495B4-1BBC-4B56-8F07-2D53AF91ECD7@gmail.com>

As a follow-up to my point about the hrefs.  

The hosted data is at: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/
The xml data is at: https://github.com/toronto-perl-mongers/tpm-website/blob/master/data/meetings/2013/11.xml

Thanks,

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From mike at stok.ca  Wed Jul  3 04:31:13 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:31:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
In-Reply-To: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>


On 2013-07-03, at 12:19 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've just updated the site with the scheduled talks for 2013.  Here are the weak points:
> 
> The meetings proper:
> 
> 1) Still waiting back for a confirmation from Jordan + synopsis of Michelle's talk in July
> 2) Still waiting for confirmation of a Damian talk in August
> 3) If you're giving a lightning talk, please fill in your talk's topic as it comes to you
> 4) The October meeting would normally fall on the 31st, but Hallowe'en seems like a really inconvenient night, so I've moved the meeting to the week before as a pre-emptive measure.  We can always move it back to the 31st if that's what people want to do
> 5) I don't have a synopsis for Tom's talk in October.  Tom, could you add that to the web site and push it to Github?  Let me know when it's done and I'll deploy the changes.
> 
> The web site:
> 
> 1) It's not obvious to me how hrefs are supposed to work.  You can see here when the XML is parsed that it moves the embedded link to the beginning of the HTML: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/  i.e., it moves it outside of the <content> tags.
> 
> 2) The app assumes that we'll never have it together enough to plan more than one meeting, so the last meeting is what it assumes is the upcoming one.  So, the site currently lists the December social as our upcoming meeting

What I did with the old site was to re-generate the site after each meeting and each update, and my way of selecting the appropriate meeting to feature was to pick the next meeting from "now", or if there wasn't one then use the most recent one.

Of course that was very twentieth century, these days smart young kids would probably have something like a Star Wars crawl generated by javascript (or dart) and it would call back to the web site to get the json for the meetings every now and then, and as people moved the cursor over meetings the details would float up or dissolve in... a simple matter of programming ;-)

> 
> I've already spent a great deal of time just filling in the talk info (thought it would be easier).  If anyone could help troubleshooting + updating content, that would be great.
> 
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
> 
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
> 
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.







From michelle at michellewarren.ca  Wed Jul  3 06:47:02 2013
From: michelle at michellewarren.ca (Michelle Warren)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 09:47:02 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
In-Reply-To: <95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
	<95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <003101ce77f3$d18362d0$748a2870$@ca>

Hi everyone,

My apologies for not responding sooner.

I'm fine with Google Hangout for the 25th and I'll probably have some
questions in the meantime.

As for my talk - how does this sound? 

July Topic: Career Communications - A Practical Approach Michelle Warren
(michellewarren.ca)

The ability to communicate well is critical to success in any job. You must
be able to express yourself both confidently and effectively. Without that
winning combination, it can be almost impossible to understand different
cultures, navigate your career and distinguish yourself. It is one of the
key steps in demonstrating your value to an organization and to members of
your team. 

Michelle Warren will be presenting a dynamic, informative and interactive
mini-workshop to help you position yourself. As a professional
communications coach with over 10 years of leading workshops and seminars,
she uses her IT industry experience to help IT individuals to set and
achieve goals, communicate more effectively, and be more productive at work.
In addition, she is a pioneer in the use of social networking tools to help
individuals with marketing, branding, and self-promotion.  She is excited to
be working again with Pearl Mongers to help with career development and hone
their communication skills.

Thanks,
Michelle



-----Original Message-----
From: toronto-pm
[mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+michelle=michellewarren.ca at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Mike Stok
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:31 AM
To: Olaf Alders
Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org PerlMongers
Subject: Re: [tpm] Site updates: help required


On 2013-07-03, at 12:19 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've just updated the site with the scheduled talks for 2013.  Here are
the weak points:
> 
> The meetings proper:
> 
> 1) Still waiting back for a confirmation from Jordan + synopsis of
Michelle's talk in July
> 2) Still waiting for confirmation of a Damian talk in August
> 3) If you're giving a lightning talk, please fill in your talk's topic as
it comes to you
> 4) The October meeting would normally fall on the 31st, but Hallowe'en
seems like a really inconvenient night, so I've moved the meeting to the
week before as a pre-emptive measure.  We can always move it back to the
31st if that's what people want to do
> 5) I don't have a synopsis for Tom's talk in October.  Tom, could you add
that to the web site and push it to Github?  Let me know when it's done and
I'll deploy the changes.
> 
> The web site:
> 
> 1) It's not obvious to me how hrefs are supposed to work.  You can see
here when the XML is parsed that it moves the embedded link to the beginning
of the HTML: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/  i.e., it moves it outside of the
<content> tags.
> 
> 2) The app assumes that we'll never have it together enough to plan more
than one meeting, so the last meeting is what it assumes is the upcoming
one.  So, the site currently lists the December social as our upcoming
meeting

What I did with the old site was to re-generate the site after each meeting
and each update, and my way of selecting the appropriate meeting to feature
was to pick the next meeting from "now", or if there wasn't one then use the
most recent one.

Of course that was very twentieth century, these days smart young kids would
probably have something like a Star Wars crawl generated by javascript (or
dart) and it would call back to the web site to get the json for the
meetings every now and then, and as people moved the cursor over meetings
the details would float up or dissolve in... a simple matter of programming
;-)

> 
> I've already spent a great deal of time just filling in the talk info
(thought it would be easier).  If anyone could help troubleshooting +
updating content, that would be great.
> 
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
> 
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
> 
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.






_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 07:29:06 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:29:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
In-Reply-To: <003101ce77f3$d18362d0$748a2870$@ca>
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
	<95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
	<003101ce77f3$d18362d0$748a2870$@ca>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE9e7E7Tp8=2mi7ZCO=UkUjootncOZU+aW55U1-fUy5mUw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

The Meetup.com Toronto Perl Mongers group has been created. I'm hoping this
will alert others in the Toronto area to attend.  Please take the time to
join the group and click the RSVP.

I'll be incorporating Meetup.com into the TPM website soon.

http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/

Thanks,
D

--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com


On 3 July 2013 09:47, Michelle Warren <michelle at michellewarren.ca> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> My apologies for not responding sooner.
>
> I'm fine with Google Hangout for the 25th and I'll probably have some
> questions in the meantime.
>
> As for my talk - how does this sound?
>
> July Topic: Career Communications - A Practical Approach Michelle Warren
> (michellewarren.ca)
>
> The ability to communicate well is critical to success in any job. You must
> be able to express yourself both confidently and effectively. Without that
> winning combination, it can be almost impossible to understand different
> cultures, navigate your career and distinguish yourself. It is one of the
> key steps in demonstrating your value to an organization and to members of
> your team.
>
> Michelle Warren will be presenting a dynamic, informative and interactive
> mini-workshop to help you position yourself. As a professional
> communications coach with over 10 years of leading workshops and seminars,
> she uses her IT industry experience to help IT individuals to set and
> achieve goals, communicate more effectively, and be more productive at
> work.
> In addition, she is a pioneer in the use of social networking tools to help
> individuals with marketing, branding, and self-promotion.  She is excited
> to
> be working again with Pearl Mongers to help with career development and
> hone
> their communication skills.
>
> Thanks,
> Michelle
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: toronto-pm
> [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+michelle=michellewarren.ca at pm.org] On Behalf Of
> Mike Stok
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:31 AM
> To: Olaf Alders
> Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org PerlMongers
> Subject: Re: [tpm] Site updates: help required
>
>
> On 2013-07-03, at 12:19 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've just updated the site with the scheduled talks for 2013.  Here are
> the weak points:
> >
> > The meetings proper:
> >
> > 1) Still waiting back for a confirmation from Jordan + synopsis of
> Michelle's talk in July
> > 2) Still waiting for confirmation of a Damian talk in August
> > 3) If you're giving a lightning talk, please fill in your talk's topic as
> it comes to you
> > 4) The October meeting would normally fall on the 31st, but Hallowe'en
> seems like a really inconvenient night, so I've moved the meeting to the
> week before as a pre-emptive measure.  We can always move it back to the
> 31st if that's what people want to do
> > 5) I don't have a synopsis for Tom's talk in October.  Tom, could you add
> that to the web site and push it to Github?  Let me know when it's done and
> I'll deploy the changes.
> >
> > The web site:
> >
> > 1) It's not obvious to me how hrefs are supposed to work.  You can see
> here when the XML is parsed that it moves the embedded link to the
> beginning
> of the HTML: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/  i.e., it moves it outside of
> the
> <content> tags.
> >
> > 2) The app assumes that we'll never have it together enough to plan more
> than one meeting, so the last meeting is what it assumes is the upcoming
> one.  So, the site currently lists the December social as our upcoming
> meeting
>
> What I did with the old site was to re-generate the site after each meeting
> and each update, and my way of selecting the appropriate meeting to feature
> was to pick the next meeting from "now", or if there wasn't one then use
> the
> most recent one.
>
> Of course that was very twentieth century, these days smart young kids
> would
> probably have something like a Star Wars crawl generated by javascript (or
> dart) and it would call back to the web site to get the json for the
> meetings every now and then, and as people moved the cursor over meetings
> the details would float up or dissolve in... a simple matter of programming
> ;-)
>
> >
> > I've already spent a great deal of time just filling in the talk info
> (thought it would be easier).  If anyone could help troubleshooting +
> updating content, that would be great.
> >
> > Olaf
> > --
> > Olaf Alders
> > olaf.alders at gmail.com
> >
> > http://www.wundercounter.com
> > http://twitter.com/wundercounter
> >
> > 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> > 416 944 8306 (direct)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
> --
>
> Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
> http://www.stok.ca/~mike/
>
> The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 07:53:13 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:53:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
In-Reply-To: <003101ce77f3$d18362d0$748a2870$@ca>
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
	<95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
	<003101ce77f3$d18362d0$748a2870$@ca>
Message-ID: <375685AC-5ED9-45ED-A53E-5F0CFD92E0CC@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-03, at 9:47 AM, Michelle Warren wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> My apologies for not responding sooner.
> 
> I'm fine with Google Hangout for the 25th and I'll probably have some
> questions in the meantime.
> 
> As for my talk - how does this sound? 
> 
> July Topic: Career Communications - A Practical Approach Michelle Warren
> (michellewarren.ca)

Thanks, Michelle!  I've updated the site with the details: http://to.pm.org/meetings/40/ 

Best,

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From ioncache at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 08:04:08 2013
From: ioncache at gmail.com (Mark Jubenville)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 11:04:08 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Site updates: help required
In-Reply-To: <95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
References: <B5B810EC-0C42-4981-8EF3-D42233C96304@gmail.com>
	<95DE0DD2-8BD2-415A-8302-25F74F31C2D9@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <51D43D68.1090407@gmail.com>

I will take care of this in one way or another.

Either that or I'll just be showing up in December since apparently 
that's our next meeting =)

On 13-07-03 07:31 AM, Mike Stok wrote:
> On 2013-07-03, at 12:19 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've just updated the site with the scheduled talks for 2013.  Here are the weak points:
>>
>> The meetings proper:
>>
>> 1) Still waiting back for a confirmation from Jordan + synopsis of Michelle's talk in July
>> 2) Still waiting for confirmation of a Damian talk in August
>> 3) If you're giving a lightning talk, please fill in your talk's topic as it comes to you
>> 4) The October meeting would normally fall on the 31st, but Hallowe'en seems like a really inconvenient night, so I've moved the meeting to the week before as a pre-emptive measure.  We can always move it back to the 31st if that's what people want to do
>> 5) I don't have a synopsis for Tom's talk in October.  Tom, could you add that to the web site and push it to Github?  Let me know when it's done and I'll deploy the changes.
>>
>> The web site:
>>
>> 1) It's not obvious to me how hrefs are supposed to work.  You can see here when the XML is parsed that it moves the embedded link to the beginning of the HTML: http://to.pm.org/meetings/44/  i.e., it moves it outside of the <content> tags.
>>
>> 2) The app assumes that we'll never have it together enough to plan more than one meeting, so the last meeting is what it assumes is the upcoming one.  So, the site currently lists the December social as our upcoming meeting
> What I did with the old site was to re-generate the site after each meeting and each update, and my way of selecting the appropriate meeting to feature was to pick the next meeting from "now", or if there wasn't one then use the most recent one.
>
> Of course that was very twentieth century, these days smart young kids would probably have something like a Star Wars crawl generated by javascript (or dart) and it would call back to the web site to get the json for the meetings every now and then, and as people moved the cursor over meetings the details would float up or dissolve in... a simple matter of programming ;-)
>
>> I've already spent a great deal of time just filling in the talk info (thought it would be easier).  If anyone could help troubleshooting + updating content, that would be great.
>>
>> Olaf
>> --
>> Olaf Alders
>> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>>
>> http://www.wundercounter.com
>> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>>
>> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
>> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mark Jubenville - ioncache at gmail.com


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 13:36:50 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 16:36:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] we're on Twitter
Message-ID: <A456C370-0E3F-465D-8197-C869F56D7F97@gmail.com>

@TOperlmongers

https://twitter.com/TOperlmongers

Please follow, tweet, retweet etc.

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From ioncache at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 14:51:32 2013
From: ioncache at gmail.com (Mark Jubenville)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 17:51:32 -0400
Subject: [tpm] we're on Twitter
In-Reply-To: <A456C370-0E3F-465D-8197-C869F56D7F97@gmail.com>
References: <A456C370-0E3F-465D-8197-C869F56D7F97@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51D49CE4.4090503@gmail.com>

Man seeing that logo I made made me remember I that not only does it 
look like waves, it also looks like mustaches.

On 13-07-03 04:36 PM, Olaf Alders wrote:
> @TOperlmongers
>
> https://twitter.com/TOperlmongers
>
> Please follow, tweet, retweet etc.
>
> Olaf
>
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mark Jubenville - ioncache at gmail.com


From rdice at pobox.com  Thu Jul  4 06:08:05 2013
From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 09:08:05 -0400
Subject: [tpm] we're on Twitter
In-Reply-To: <51D49CE4.4090503@gmail.com>
References: <A456C370-0E3F-465D-8197-C869F56D7F97@gmail.com>
	<51D49CE4.4090503@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPPqpsrtxETDCfwaSD9sUhVjSXiknuu2REM7GCfKNkQ7LV8Sqw@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget the man from whom we all take inspiration...

http://www.litt.no/photoalbum/view4/L3Rvb2xzL3Bob3RvYWxidW1fdmlldy9jdXN0b21lci9pbWcvNDg5Ny9zbWFsbDMvNDg5NzkzLmpwZy9Dcm9wLz94PTU4Jnk9MCZ3aWR0aD0zMDAmaGVpZ2h0PTIyNQ



On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Mark Jubenville <ioncache at gmail.com> wrote:

> Man seeing that logo I made made me remember I that not only does it look
> like waves, it also looks like mustaches.
>
>
> On 13-07-03 04:36 PM, Olaf Alders wrote:
>
>> @TOperlmongers
>>
>> https://twitter.com/**TOperlmongers <https://twitter.com/TOperlmongers>
>>
>> Please follow, tweet, retweet etc.
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>> --
>> Olaf Alders
>> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>>
>> http://www.wundercounter.com
>> http://twitter.com/**wundercounter <http://twitter.com/wundercounter>
>>
>> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
>> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>>
>
> --
>
> Mark Jubenville - ioncache at gmail.com
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 12:25:57 2013
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 15:25:57 -0400
Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>

Here's another entry for my 'yet to be composed' meeting
presentation entitled 'Things I've Stubbed My Toe On ...'


I'm trying to use YAML modules to send structures across
pipes from children to parent processes (or sockets).
Although the YAML docs talk about Dump() and Load()
I haven't been able to find (or figure out) an adequate
example of 'exchanging' the data, only encoding and decoding.

Although YAML talks about documents, and documents are delimited
by '---' and '...' respectively, the YAML.pm doesn't (apparently)
directly provide this kind of 'document' support.  I would have
expected a module to have provided a 'document wrapper' support.

Although I can add the wrapper manually during transmission...

Then when it comes to the receiving end... what am I expected
to do?  I don't think I can do a simple newline delimited read.
[What happens to newlines that may have been in the variables
I was YAML sending ?]   Do I need to sit in a loop doing
newline-reads, accumulating stuff, till I see a line that starts
with the '---' or '...' ?

And, can all variables in a single exchange be sent within
the same document (example?) or do I have to send them
as individual documents within some kind of 'document of
document' wrapper?  Surely this can't be as hard as it seems?

Suggestions, examples or references ?
[PS. The same questions would apply to anyone who suggests
 JSON as an alternative.]

TIA
Fulko
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From mike at stok.ca  Mon Jul  8 16:15:30 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 19:15:30 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd:  delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BAA4F64-BFA8-4614-B930-1C623A1585F6@stok.ca>

Forgot to reply all.  Might as well be ignorant in public ??

Mike

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com>
> Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
> Date: 8 July, 2013 3:25:57 PM EDT
> To: toronto-pm at pm.org
> 
> Here's another entry for my 'yet to be composed' meeting
> presentation entitled 'Things I've Stubbed My Toe On ...'
> 
> 
> I'm trying to use YAML modules to send structures across
> pipes from children to parent processes (or sockets).
> Although the YAML docs talk about Dump() and Load()
> I haven't been able to find (or figure out) an adequate
> example of 'exchanging' the data, only encoding and decoding.
> 
> Although YAML talks about documents, and documents are delimited
> by '---' and '...' respectively, the YAML.pm doesn't (apparently)
> directly provide this kind of 'document' support.  I would have
> expected a module to have provided a 'document wrapper' support.
> 
> Although I can add the wrapper manually during transmission...
> 
> Then when it comes to the receiving end... what am I expected
> to do?  I don't think I can do a simple newline delimited read.
> [What happens to newlines that may have been in the variables
> I was YAML sending ?]   Do I need to sit in a loop doing
> newline-reads, accumulating stuff, till I see a line that starts
> with the '---' or '...' ?
> 
> And, can all variables in a single exchange be sent within
> the same document (example?) or do I have to send them
> as individual documents within some kind of 'document of
> document' wrapper?  Surely this can't be as hard as it seems?
> 
> Suggestions, examples or references ?
> [PS. The same questions would apply to anyone who suggests
>  JSON as an alternative.]
> 
> TIA
> Fulko
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.






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From uri at stemsystems.com  Mon Jul  8 16:32:22 2013
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:32:22 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd:  delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
In-Reply-To: <3BAA4F64-BFA8-4614-B930-1C623A1585F6@stok.ca>
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BAA4F64-BFA8-4614-B930-1C623A1585F6@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <51DB4C06.9060308@stemsystems.com>

On 07/08/2013 07:15 PM, Mike Stok wrote:
> Forgot to reply all.  Might as well be ignorant in public ??
>

>>
>> I'm trying to use YAML modules to send structures across
>> pipes from children to parent processes (or sockets).
>> Although the YAML docs talk about Dump() and Load()
>> I haven't been able to find (or figure out) an adequate
>> example of 'exchanging' the data, only encoding and decoding.
>>
>> Although I can add the wrapper manually during transmission...

>>
>> And, can all variables in a single exchange be sent within
>> the same document (example?) or do I have to send them
>> as individual documents within some kind of 'document of
>> document' wrapper?  Surely this can't be as hard as it seems?
>>
>> Suggestions, examples or references ?
>> [PS. The same questions would apply to anyone who suggests
>>   JSON as an alternative.]
>>

you should separate encoding from packeting. you can choose any encoding 
and then wrap it in a common packet format for sending on the wire. what 
i did years ago was to create a trivial packet header/trailer. the 
header is one line with a size of the packet (only the packet, not 
including the header/trailer) in ascii digits. the trailer isn't really 
needed but i added a fixed line there. so generating this packet is 
easy. reading isn't much harder. you read until you have at least one 
line which will be the header. parse out the size and delete the header 
or similar. then keep reading until you have size bytes read. read the 
trailer if you have one. then decode the packet. it isn't much code on 
either side. i did it with async (event loop) i/o so i kept a read 
packet buffer and expected size around. when the buffer was larger than 
the expected size, i knew i had a packet to decode. i kept trailing data 
as it could be from the next packet.

if you wrap all this into a nice layer it becomes a simple send packet 
or callback when a packet is read and decoded. assuming your 
encode/decode can handle nested hashes/arrays, you can send most any 
normal perl data. stay away from code and blessed objects as they can be 
annoying and IMO shouldn't need to be send over the wire.

thanx,

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
http://PerlHunter.com

From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 19:17:56 2013
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:17:56 -0400
Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
In-Reply-To: <B751B055-123A-4DF2-A1AD-F31D717EC256@stok.ca>
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<B751B055-123A-4DF2-A1AD-F31D717EC256@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hOAxXokC+8DEP5-xVWCGS_UwE8HdD+7+jdvMBP9J69DgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca> wrote:

> On 2013-07-08, at 3:25 PM, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Here's another entry for my 'yet to be composed' meeting
> > presentation entitled 'Things I've Stubbed My Toe On ...'
> >
> >
> > I'm trying to use YAML modules to send structures across
> > pipes from children to parent processes (or sockets).

...snip ...

> Doesn't YAML.pm do that automatically?

No, apparently it doesn't.

> Maybe https://metacpan.org/module/IO::YAML would be helpful?

I just stumbled across that, and yes it seems like it might be the ticket.

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Uri Guttman <uri at stemsystems.com> added:

> you should separate encoding from packeting. you can choose any
> encoding and then wrap it in a common packet format for sending on
> the wire. what i did years ago was to create a trivial packet header/trailer.

... snip ...

That's what I was afraid of.
Not that its hard, but I would have expected an exchange specification to
have been included as part of the encoding specification regardless of
the transport mechanism.

I'll check out IO::YAML, and if not sufficient (or easy to understand) then
I'll make my own as Uri suggested.  I was prepared to do that, I just
wasn't expecting to have to (in this day and age).

Fulko

From uri at stemsystems.com  Mon Jul  8 20:17:27 2013
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 23:17:27 -0400
Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hOAxXokC+8DEP5-xVWCGS_UwE8HdD+7+jdvMBP9J69DgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<B751B055-123A-4DF2-A1AD-F31D717EC256@stok.ca>
	<CAGuV3hOAxXokC+8DEP5-xVWCGS_UwE8HdD+7+jdvMBP9J69DgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51DB80C7.7000805@stemsystems.com>

On 07/08/2013 10:17 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Uri Guttman <uri at stemsystems.com> added:
>
>> you should separate encoding from packeting. you can choose any
>> encoding and then wrap it in a common packet format for sending on
>> the wire. what i did years ago was to create a trivial packet header/trailer.
>
> ... snip ...
>
> That's what I was afraid of.
> Not that its hard, but I would have expected an exchange specification to
> have been included as part of the encoding specification regardless of
> the transport mechanism.
>
> I'll check out IO::YAML, and if not sufficient (or easy to understand) then
> I'll make my own as Uri suggested.  I was prepared to do that, I just
> wasn't expecting to have to (in this day and age).

well, as i said, the two things, encoding and packetizing are very 
different things and shouldn't be in the same module. detecting when a 
packet is recieved can be simple or complex and can require a lot of 
buffering and solid i/o coding. that has nothing to do with an 
encode/decode module. adding cruft like that is what can ruin a good 
module. keep it simple, stupid! :)

thanx,

uri


-- 
Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
http://PerlHunter.com

From uri at stemsystems.com  Mon Jul  8 20:46:42 2013
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 23:46:42 -0400
Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hOAxXokC+8DEP5-xVWCGS_UwE8HdD+7+jdvMBP9J69DgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<B751B055-123A-4DF2-A1AD-F31D717EC256@stok.ca>
	<CAGuV3hOAxXokC+8DEP5-xVWCGS_UwE8HdD+7+jdvMBP9J69DgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51DB87A2.2080009@stemsystems.com>

On 07/08/2013 10:17 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:

>
> I'll check out IO::YAML, and if not sufficient (or easy to understand) then
> I'll make my own as Uri suggested.  I was prepared to do that, I just
> wasn't expecting to have to (in this day and age).

here is my code for doing that. it should be easy to rip out the parts 
you want and to modify it for your needs. as you can see it isn't much 
code and it would be hard to make it super general as people have 
different ways they want to mark packets on the wire. that is one reason 
you don't see this type of code already done in a general module. there 
is no really good way to handle it that isn't very specific to the project.

https://metacpan.org/source/URI/Stem-0.11/lib/Stem/Packet.pm#PStem%3A%3APacket

that supports different codecs which is nice to have. also the OO is not 
typical so change that. the major thing you need is the to-data() sub 
which is passed stuff read from the wire and will return the decoded 
packet when it sees one (it also handles callbacks as this is an async 
system).

thanx,

uri
-- 
Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
http://PerlHunter.com

From stuart at morungos.com  Tue Jul  9 07:39:50 2013
From: stuart at morungos.com (Stuart Watt)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:39:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] delimiting/reading YAML documents across sockets
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hN05F7C57dVW55-KJ8SqCf7RrjFUvKjmeLt1YPTaUR43Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <650D53B2-16EC-4E5B-9403-D846F6A82829@morungos.com>

Personally, I would suggest JSON, or even XML. YAML is fairly complex (it's advantage is human readability, not performance), and I'd suggest too complex, for network data. JSON, especially with JSON::XS, is fast, east, and handles newlines fine, apart from the packet-detection issue. 

I'd agree that separating packetizing from encoding is ideal, but if you don't want to do that, you could try a streaming parser, e.g., JSON::Streaming::Reader. For sending, you can then just dump the data out. For receiving, in theory this gives you an event-based API which might be a more natural fit. XML uses technique much more -- it's the basis for XMPP for example. I use streaming XML a lot for handling very large, even continuous, data, and it's not really too bad, although it does push some of the encoding/decoding back to you. 

Using indentation IMO makes the point of a streaming parser very dubious, which is another reason if you want to do streaming event-based reading to use either JSON, or even XML::Stream for reading and XML::Writer for sending. Personally, I doubt if there is ever going to be a safe application for streaming YAML. 

All the best
Stuart

On 2013-07-08, at 3:25 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:

> [PS. The same questions would apply to anyone who suggests
>  JSON as an alternative.]

--
Stuart Watt
stuart at morungos.com / twitter.com/morungos


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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 06:07:46 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 09:07:46 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Meetup Group
Message-ID: <01219C66-8116-4E32-8C77-A2B5ED9CBB88@gmail.com>

I see that a lot of us have already joined the new meetup group.  I'd encourage anyone who hasn't, to do so.  It helps us put faces to names and I think it looks better for the Meetup group in general to have some decent number:

http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/

If you don't already have an account, you can log in with Facebook, so it's quite painless to get started.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From rdice at pobox.com  Fri Jul 19 08:42:25 2013
From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:42:25 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Damian Conway talk details! Tue 6 and Thu 8 August, 2013
Message-ID: <CAPPqpsrv_wVXxDL-wqoCxHWCVL9FJ4yjkn0j04mgwpTnVgGC_A@mail.gmail.com>

*Good news, everyone!*

Dr. Damian Conway will be coming to visit the computer tech community of
Toronto during the first week of August 2013.  Damian is a Master Hacker
and fantastic, entertaining presenter.  The Perl community has known and
loved him for decades but he has something to offer anyone who is
interested in programming and computer science regardless of your language
of choice.  His talks are both educational and entertaining!  And, they're
free.  *(But we are taking donations.  See details below.)*

*Tuesday Aug 6 @ 7pm (please enter the room approx. 6:45pm)*
*Mozilla Offices, Suite 500, 366 Adelaide Street West (just east of Spadina)
*
*"Fun With Dead Languages" --
http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/DeadLanguages.html*

Watch in mesmerized terror as Damian hacks code in several unrelated
programming languages (none of them Perl). Along the way, you'll also
discover what's wrong with modern CS education, why programmers shouldn't
frequent casinos, the power of Thor's Law, the language of moisture
vaporators, C++ mysticism, how to use the three shells, state machines on
steroids, programming without variables or subroutines, a cheap and
eco-friendly alternative for distributed persistent computation, what the
Romans used instead of braces, the ancient probabilistic wisdom of bodkins,
and the price of fish.


(Ed.: This is going to be the more outlandish of his talks this year.  It
is a new-and-improved version of a talk Damian last gave in Toronto seven
years ago where he demonstrates his virtuosity -- and insanity -- in many
programming languages and paradigms.  Computer geeks from all language
backgrounds should enjoy this thoroughly.)


*Thursday Aug 8 @ 7pm (please enter the room approx. 6:45pm)*
*University of Toronto, St. George Campus (downtown), Bahen Centre for IT
(40 St. George Street, just north of College St.), Room # BA-1160*
*Talk # 1 - "A Few Of My Favorite Things"--
http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/FavoriteThings.html*

(Go to the URL, read the description.  It will be Perl 5 Madness, Damian
style.)


*Talk #2 - "Sex and Violence: Social and Technical Lessons from the Perl 6
Project" -- http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/SexViolence.html*

In June 2000, Larry Wall announced a new four-month Open Source development
effort: the reinvention of Perl. In this keynote, Damian Conway will unfold
the twisting and sordid tale of what happened over the next ten years of
the project, highlighting the sexy new language that has been created, the
extreme violence that was sometimes necessary to make it happen, and the
dozen or so harsh-but-invaluable lessons that the development team learned
along the way.



*About Damian*

For those of you who don't already know...

  * http://damian.conway.org/About_us/Bio_formal.html
  * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Conway
  * http://fyi.oreilly.com/2008/08/the-mind-of-damian-conway-scie.html
  * What the Internet thinks of him! --
http://www.googlism.com/who_is/d/damian_conway/

Damian has given talks in Toronto most years since 2001 and they are widely
enjoyed, even by IT people who don't normally "do the Perl thing."  Think
of it as the Toronto IT community's annual party.


*I can has donation plz?*

Damian's trip to Toronto is un-funded... that is, as of right now it's
coming out of his own pocketbook.  However, as I have done for the past 13
years I am organizing a community pass-'round-the-hat donation to help
cover the expenses (i.e. a plane ticket, roughly a week of hotel rooms, and
meals and other incidentals while he is here).  If you would like to help
out with these expenses, please get in touch with me off-list.  Donations
from companies are gladly welcomed, too!  Any funds raised in excess of
what is needed to cover his expenses will be given to him as an honorarium
for his visit.

Please circulate this email announcement!  Forward to any one / any company
you think might be interested.  We always have a great crowd come out for
Damian's events and getting the word out widely is a big part of that.

Did I omit any important information?  Please ask me, and when I send out
reminder emails I will include that info in them.

Looking forward to seeing you soon...

Cheers,
 - Richard

P.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D1cap6yETA
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From mike at stok.ca  Tue Jul 23 04:42:17 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 07:42:17 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of Aging
	Perlers"
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>

The linked article was interesting reading for me, and seems in tune with conversations I have had over the past few years.

Mike

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Bill Ricker <bill.n1vux at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of Aging Perlers"
> Date: 22 July, 2013 7:14:43 PM EDT
> To: Boston Perl Mongers <boston-pm at pm.org>
> 
> Three-part article by VM Brasseur @vmbrasseur
> "The Rising Costs of Aging Perlers"
> Part 1, The Data
> http://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2013/07/22/the-rising-costs-of-aging-perlers-part-1-the-data/
> also "Part 2, The Business"; "Part 3, The Suggestions" linked from there.
> 
> -- 
> Bill
> @n1vux bill.n1vux at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Boston-pm mailing list
> Boston-pm at mail.pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.






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From jztam at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 23 06:16:01 2013
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 06:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Fw: [pm_groups] XML history grokker
In-Reply-To: <7F5D4ECE-AF49-4BAA-AD59-F42C21DDCD16@jays.net>
References: <7F5D4ECE-AF49-4BAA-AD59-F42C21DDCD16@jays.net>
Message-ID: <1374585361.84057.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

??? 
? Forwarded as a courtesy to sender and receivers.? /jordan



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Jay Hannah <jay at jays.net>
To: PM Groups <pm_groups at pm.org> 
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 3:27:10 PM
Subject: [pm_groups] XML history grokker
 

Volunteers welcome:

? https://github.com/perlorg/www.pm.org/issues/29

:)

jhannah
Omaha.pm
Perl Monger Group Leader FAQ: http://www.pm.org/faq/hosting_faq.html




-- 
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Jul 23 07:59:09 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:59:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> The linked article was interesting reading for me, and seems in tune with
> conversations I have had over the past few years.
>
> Mike
>
I agree with the article. I'd like to know how Python manages to attract
new recruits, because it doesn't seem to have the same problems.

I'd be happy to train new recruits, (preferably for money), but apart from
India, where are they? (Frankly, given the current job market, it's hard
to justify recommending anyone become a programmer.)

There's also the problem that it's better to be paid a modest salary than
not hired at a higher one. $50,000 or so/year would look very attractive
at the moment.


From mike at stok.ca  Tue Jul 23 08:38:14 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:38:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
	Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <4B651971-EB33-4686-91C7-AA5BB2D34311@stok.ca>


On 2013-07-23, at 10:59 AM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> 
>> The linked article was interesting reading for me, and seems in tune with
>> conversations I have had over the past few years.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
> I agree with the article. I'd like to know how Python manages to attract
> new recruits, because it doesn't seem to have the same problems.

Python is a useful teaching language, so you can look at it as the Java of scripting languages where there are lots of projects (e.g. software carpentry) and many people building useful numerical libraries (e.g. numpy) which make it popular with engineers. Those add up to build its momentum, particularly among people who really don't care which language they use as long as they can solve the problem they are facing.

> I'd be happy to train new recruits, (preferably for money), but apart from
> India, where are they? (Frankly, given the current job market, it's hard
> to justify recommending anyone become a programmer.)
> 
> There's also the problem that it's better to be paid a modest salary than
> not hired at a higher one. $50,000 or so/year would look very attractive
> at the moment.

I don't think people want to be recruited to a language any more, unless they are into languages (in which case they probably want to be dabbling in many.)

Maybe one approach is to learn Python? Python's OK as a language, not earth-shatteringly well or poorly designed, and one to which most of the software engineering picked up in Perl can be used (imperative, object-oriented-ish language).

If I ever look for another Perl related job then I think I would qualify as a novice again - it has been too long since I wrote Perl at any scale day-to-day, and my Perl style is likely to seem antiquated. These days in terms of coding I am a programmer who mainly uses Ruby, and occasionally dabbles with Perl, and who is most likely to be interested in metaprogrammable languages which compile down to some popular and proven VM bytecode (JVM, BEAM).

Mike

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.







From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Jul 23 09:15:08 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 12:15:08 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>

On 13-07-23 10:59 AM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
> I agree with the article. I'd like to know how Python manages to attract
> new recruits, because it doesn't seem to have the same problems.
>
> I'd be happy to train new recruits, (preferably for money), but apart from
> India, where are they? (Frankly, given the current job market, it's hard
> to justify recommending anyone become a programmer.)
>
> There's also the problem that it's better to be paid a modest salary than
> not hired at a higher one. $50,000 or so/year would look very attractive
> at the moment.

 From a hiring perspective, it's not easy to find "intermediate" "perl" 
people. It's pretty easy to find smart people with little to no perl. 
It's a little harder to find people in that camp that are interested 
and/or willing to learn perl. It's somewhat challenging to find people 
that are strong in perl and "senior", and it's even more difficult to 
find people like that that are actually looking for a job.

There are tons of people hiring programmers in toronto right now, but 
many of them are very particular about the kind of people they are 
hiring. If you're a well rounded web programmer with a few years 
experience, I don't think you should have much trouble finding a job 
right now.  I may have a skewed opinion about what 'well rounded' means 
though.  Also, outside if web, i have no idea.  Jobs writing crons for 
banks are probably pretty hard to come by these days.

Adam

From abram.hindle at softwareprocess.es  Tue Jul 23 10:21:28 2013
From: abram.hindle at softwareprocess.es (Abram Hindle)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:21:28 -0600
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	(sfid-20130723_111403_519848_3B64EA8C)
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca> (sfid-20130723_111403_519848_3B64EA8C)
Message-ID: <51EEBB98.1060706@softwareprocess.es>

On 13-07-23 10:15 AM, Adam Prime wrote:
> On 13-07-23 10:59 AM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>> I agree with the article. I'd like to know how Python manages to attract
>> new recruits, because it doesn't seem to have the same problems.
>>
> From a hiring perspective, it's not easy to find "intermediate" "perl"
> people. It's pretty easy to find smart people with little to no perl.
> It's a little harder to find people in that camp that are interested
> and/or willing to learn perl. It's somewhat challenging to find people
> that are strong in perl and "senior", and it's even more difficult to
> find people like that that are actually looking for a job.

Last year I was lucky enough to hire an undergraduate research assistant
who knew perl and did some good perl work. This summer I hired two
undergraduate research assistants and one week after I hired them I had
to travel to a conference. The next day their commits consisted of them
porting the code base to python without asking me.

Now it is the main codebase and there is little I can do about it. It's
too late and the port allowed them to fix some issues that would've been
awkward in the old codebase. Thus I can't really complain. One of the
nice things is that they are using more OO in the design of the codebase
then with Perl. I think most Perl people don't know moose enough and
thus avoid the OO cruft because it is far too verbose without moose.

It will be very hard for me in the future to find undergraduates with
Perl experience, especially modern idiomatic perl,  at my institution,
so the python port from a people angle makes sense.

I just wish Python had the good sense to implement lexical scope and use
strict;

*sigh*

abram

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From mike at stok.ca  Tue Jul 23 10:31:09 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
	Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EEBB98.1060706@softwareprocess.es>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca> (sfid-20130723_111403_519848_3B64EA8C)
	<51EEBB98.1060706@softwareprocess.es>
Message-ID: <C4FA0832-1E67-488C-A4E1-0FED26E4E458@stok.ca>


On 2013-07-23, at 1:21 PM, Abram Hindle <abram.hindle at softwareprocess.es> wrote:

> I just wish Python had the good sense to implement lexical scope and use
> strict;

It's not the language, it's the people it attracts. Python hasn't changed the way I think about programming (like a useful new-to-me language should), but my experience with Pythonistas has changed the way I think about whether I want a job which involves Python.

Mike

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.







From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Jul 23 10:40:00 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:40:00 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> It's somewhat challenging to find people that are strong in perl and
> "senior", and it's even more difficult to find people like that that are
> actually looking for a job.

Really? I'd like to think I fit that category, and I've given up expecting
responses.

> There are tons of people hiring programmers in toronto right now,
See above. Actually, they're not "hiring"; they're posting advertisements
describing people who probably don't exist.

> but many of them are very particular about the kind of people they are
> hiring.

I think that's the problem. I fear becoming boring about the ludicrously
specific requirements in job descriptions. (See my postings about purple
unicorns.)






From liam at holoweb.net  Tue Jul 23 10:59:23 2013
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:59:23 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <1374602363.15669.466.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 13:40 -0400, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
> I fear becoming boring about the ludicrously
> specific requirements in job descriptions. (See my postings about purple
> unicorns.)

There are several reasons why a job posting might be really specific:
. you've already got a specific candidate, maybe you need to advertise
for canada immigration rules, for example
. it can be hard to get a job posting past HR people without specific
requirements
. most often, you put into the list everything you want and know you'll
have to accept less.

It's actually worth applying in all three cases - even where there's a
specific candidate already chosen, if someone better comes along the
firm might hire both of you.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml


From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Jul 23 11:24:34 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:24:34 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>

On 13-07-23 01:40 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>
>> It's somewhat challenging to find people that are strong in perl and
>> "senior", and it's even more difficult to find people like that that are
>> actually looking for a job.
>
> Really? I'd like to think I fit that category, and I've given up expecting
> responses.
>

I don't know what the jobs you've been looking at are, or what your 
experience and skill are, but it should be noted that I'm talking 
specifically about web. To me this means you have a good handle on XHTML 
and/or HTML5, CSS, JS to start. Knowing about responsive design, web 
performance optimization and semantic markup are also good things to 
have. This stuff is all of equal importance to me as your actual skills 
with whatever language your familiar with on the backend.

For the senior positions that we're hiring for you need to have all of 
that stuff, not just 5 years or more of perl (or python, or whatever). 
If your experience is years of writing fabulously complicated cron jobs 
leverage all sorts of perl wizardry, you aren't going to get the jobs 
I'm talking about.

These people do exist, they are all just working already, or very 
happily freelancing.

Adam





From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Jul 23 11:57:47 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:57:47 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


>
> I don't know what the jobs you've been looking at are, or what your
> experience and skill are, but it should be noted that I'm talking
> specifically about web. To me this means you have a good handle on XHTML
> and/or HTML5, CSS, JS to start. Knowing about responsive design, web
> performance optimization and semantic markup are also good things to
> have.

The data processing world seems to have "solved" the problem by breaking
the development process into (rather too many) specialisations. Instead of
a systems analyst investigating a business problem, writing a
specification, and letting programmers code and test it, now we have
business analysts and data architects and "software engineers" and QA
testers and probably other categories I haven't noticed. Specialisation
can be good, (thank you, Adam Smith), but if done badly or to excess, it
simply substitutes communications problems for whatever the original task
was.

Perhaps companies developing Web applications should look at dividing the
tasks sensibly. There's certainly no reason to expect technical people to
make good aesthetic or interface design decisions, for example.


From jbl at jbldata.com  Tue Jul 23 12:19:10 2013
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:19:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CRM for small business or personal use?
Message-ID: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>

I'm looking at some CRM solutions for personal use, as I'm trying to 
find a way to keep track of multiple contacts and leads, along with next 
actions associated with them.

I came across Fat Free CRM ( http://www.fatfreecrm.com/). Looks 
feature-full, but the interface seems a bit heavy.

Of course it's crossed my mind to write my own (very simple) one to 
leverage jQuery auto-complete functionality, etc. in order to make input 
as fast and out-of-the-way as possible.

If you know of any CRM-ish tools that helps you keep track of people, 
and how you interact with them, I'd love to hear about them.

-Bobby

-- 
https://www.jbldata.com/

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From faisal at akber.net  Tue Jul 23 12:47:04 2013
From: faisal at akber.net (Syed Faisal Akber)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:47:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CRM for small business or personal use?
In-Reply-To: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>
Message-ID: <20130723194704.5984397.8683.10270@akber.net>

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http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Tue Jul 23 12:47:44 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:47:44 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CRM for small business or personal use?
In-Reply-To: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>
References: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE_VJH-vpWjdRwrxNZ43ef20qSa1ivLgCENjMCCc3UnLFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think SugarCRM is the big open source one:
http://www.sugarcrm.com/download

They hide their "community" version well though.

You can also get a free Highrise account (from the makers of basecamp):
http://highrisehq.com/signup

(Look under the three plans and you'll see a VERY small link to the free
version that maxes out at 250 contacts)

That being said, having now worked on two proprietary CRM's: They're all
heavy interfaces. All of 'em.

--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com


On 23 July 2013 15:19, J. Bobby Lopez <jbl at jbldata.com> wrote:

>  I'm looking at some CRM solutions for personal use, as I'm trying to find
> a way to keep track of multiple contacts and leads, along with next actions
> associated with them.
>
> I came across Fat Free CRM ( http://www.fatfreecrm.com/).  Looks
> feature-full, but the interface seems a bit heavy.
>
> Of course it's crossed my mind to write my own (very simple) one to
> leverage jQuery auto-complete functionality, etc. in order to make input as
> fast and out-of-the-way as possible.
>
> If you know of any CRM-ish tools that helps you keep track of people, and
> how you interact with them, I'd love to hear about them.
>
> -Bobby
>
> -- https://www.jbldata.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Jul 23 13:10:07 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:10:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CRM for small business or personal use?
In-Reply-To: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>
References: <51EED72E.6010203@jbldata.com>
Message-ID: <ecdbd735eed6a99777e93a116d9adab1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


You might want to take a look at this: https://www.openerp.com/apps
It's an open-source ERP package, with a CRM module.

(I have no personal experience with it, so take this as a hint, not a
suggestion.)



From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Jul 23 14:36:50 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:36:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca>

On 13-07-23 02:57 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>
> The data processing world seems to have "solved" the problem by breaking
> the development process into (rather too many) specialisations. Instead of
> a systems analyst investigating a business problem, writing a
> specification, and letting programmers code and test it, now we have
> business analysts and data architects and "software engineers" and QA
> testers and probably other categories I haven't noticed. Specialisation
> can be good, (thank you, Adam Smith), but if done badly or to excess, it
> simply substitutes communications problems for whatever the original task
> was.
>
> Perhaps companies developing Web applications should look at dividing the
> tasks sensibly. There's certainly no reason to expect technical people to
> make good aesthetic or interface design decisions, for example.

I absolutely agree that technical people should not be doing real design 
work. Not if you want the design to be any good anyway.

I don't think you're going to find many jobs working for companies 
developing web applications where you can get away with not knowing a 
large subset of the technologies I mentioned. You don't need to be an 
expert in all of them, but you can't be afraid of any of them.

I suppose it's possible to find "back end engineer" jobs that are 
basically "publish this database via REST", but I'd get bored of that 
kind of quick.

Adam

From ioncache at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 08:08:25 2013
From: ioncache at gmail.com (Mark Jubenville)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:08:25 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>

On 2013-07-23 5:36 PM, Adam Prime wrote:
> On 13-07-23 02:57 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>>
>> The data processing world seems to have "solved" the problem by breaking
>> the development process into (rather too many) specialisations. 
>> Instead of
>> a systems analyst investigating a business problem, writing a
>> specification, and letting programmers code and test it, now we have
>> business analysts and data architects and "software engineers" and QA
>> testers and probably other categories I haven't noticed. Specialisation
>> can be good, (thank you, Adam Smith), but if done badly or to excess, it
>> simply substitutes communications problems for whatever the original 
>> task
>> was.
>>
>> Perhaps companies developing Web applications should look at dividing 
>> the
>> tasks sensibly. There's certainly no reason to expect technical 
>> people to
>> make good aesthetic or interface design decisions, for example.
>
> I absolutely agree that technical people should not be doing real 
> design work. Not if you want the design to be any good anyway.
>
> I don't think you're going to find many jobs working for companies 
> developing web applications where you can get away with not knowing a 
> large subset of the technologies I mentioned. You don't need to be an 
> expert in all of them, but you can't be afraid of any of them.
>
> I suppose it's possible to find "back end engineer" jobs that are 
> basically "publish this database via REST", but I'd get bored of that 
> kind of quick.
>
> Adam
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

Also, knowing all of those technologies does not by any stretch of the 
imagination mean you are a designer.  You need to know them so that you 
can implement a design properly.  That's why we look for them when 
hiring new web developers.

-- 

Mark Jubenville | ioncache at gmail.com


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 08:15:00 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:15:00 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
	Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca> <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-24, at 11:08 AM, Mark Jubenville wrote:
>>> Perhaps companies developing Web applications should look at dividing the
>>> tasks sensibly. There's certainly no reason to expect technical people to
>>> make good aesthetic or interface design decisions, for example.
>> 
>> I absolutely agree that technical people should not be doing real design work. Not if you want the design to be any good anyway.
>> 
>> I don't think you're going to find many jobs working for companies developing web applications where you can get away with not knowing a large subset of the technologies I mentioned. You don't need to be an expert in all of them, but you can't be afraid of any of them.
>> 
>> I suppose it's possible to find "back end engineer" jobs that are basically "publish this database via REST", but I'd get bored of that kind of quick.
>> 
>> Adam
>> _______________________________________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> 
> Also, knowing all of those technologies does not by any stretch of the imagination mean you are a designer.  You need to know them so that you can implement a design properly.  That's why we look for them when hiring new web developers.


At my $work all of the initial design for our site was contracted out to a design firm, but now that they're out of the picture we have to maintain it.  So, even though I'm not a front end designer, I still need to know enough about how it all works to add new pages, tweak existing design etc.  Knowing enough about these things (CSS, JS, Bootstrap) to be dangerous is good enough in a lot of cases.

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From arocker at Vex.Net  Wed Jul 24 08:35:37 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:37 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca> <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
	<F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
>  Knowing enough about these things (CSS, JS, Bootstrap) to be dangerous is
> good enough in a lot of cases.
>

With the rate at which the flavour-of-the-month in Web techniques changes,
it's sheer coincidence if one finishes a project with a detailed knowledge
of the tools and processes favoured for the next one.

Surely, the real skill is knowing how to pick up and learn use new tools,
without having to sit passively in front of an instructor? That's what the
schooling industry claims to teach, and conspicuously doesn't.
Unfortunately, this skill doesn't seem to have a name that a recruiter
will recognise.


From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 08:53:18 2013
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:53:18 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
	Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca> <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
	<F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>
	<f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hMpKhnnEhrs6MdFG=xpiR1qmEWRkEUmOR-xDXgk5JP8Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> >
> >  Knowing enough about these things (CSS, JS, Bootstrap) to be dangerous
> is
> > good enough in a lot of cases.
> >
>
> With the rate at which the flavour-of-the-month in Web techniques changes,
> it's sheer coincidence if one finishes a project with a detailed knowledge
> of the tools and processes favoured for the next one.
>
> Surely, the real skill is knowing how to pick up and learn use new tools,
> without having to sit passively in front of an instructor? That's what the
> schooling industry claims to teach, and conspicuously doesn't.
> Unfortunately, this skill doesn't seem to have a name that a recruiter
> will recognise.


I call that skill 'being smart',  and its the second criteria I have, just
following:
'can I understand your speech'.  My third most important criteria is 'what
is your
previous experience'.  But your right... how do you get that past a
recruiter?
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From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Wed Jul 24 08:56:28 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:56:28 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of
 Aging Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <10841_1374680156_r6OFZuEo012896_f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca> <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
	<F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>
	<10841_1374680156_r6OFZuEo012896_f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <51EFF92C.2050302@utoronto.ca>

On 13-07-24 11:35 AM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>
> With the rate at which the flavour-of-the-month in Web techniques changes,
> it's sheer coincidence if one finishes a project with a detailed knowledge
> of the tools and processes favoured for the next one.
>
> Surely, the real skill is knowing how to pick up and learn use new tools,
> without having to sit passively in front of an instructor? That's what the
> schooling industry claims to teach, and conspicuously doesn't.
> Unfortunately, this skill doesn't seem to have a name that a recruiter
> will recognise.

Yes. Web moves fast. Perl is moving fast these days too. When we're 
hiring we're looking less for resume's with the right list of tools and 
languages on them, and more for people that are smart, adaptable, and 
interesting in learning the tools we use, as well as the tools we don't 
use yet.

That said, I wouldn't learn any tool explicitly unless you have a use 
for them personally. Instead, I'd learn enough JS to be dangerous, as 
Olaf put it. I'd suggest starting with "Javascript: The Good Parts", 
because I like books that have animals on them.

The vast majority of "flavour of the month" tools these days are front 
end JS frameworks (at least imo). If you know JS, and are a competent 
developer you should be able to pick up any of the various frameworks 
out there in a few days to a few weeks.

Adam


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 09:03:06 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:03:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] [Boston.pm] Perl community "The Rising Costs of Aging
	Perlers"
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hMpKhnnEhrs6MdFG=xpiR1qmEWRkEUmOR-xDXgk5JP8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3XpaN7d1+4nzsJ=NrrQfUqkgNnkJ06r7N9OWdoZmZfp2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<41F6EB43-98B9-47A0-82F8-B2AC0A186F05@stok.ca>
	<30299_1374591566_r6NExPLN031822_de820eb9c79fcd1c68f068c4c1753996.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEAC0C.40407@utoronto.ca>
	<2497_1374601216_r6NHeF3j004754_ad0d014694ff9bd6cabff7f3dd0ccfba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EECA62.7010601@utoronto.ca>
	<23d0cd6519ef6041e19053080d4fb619.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<51EEF772.4030301@utoronto.ca> <51EFEDE9.7040903@gmail.com>
	<F96DE56C-CCBF-4A9A-94E9-48887B0F72FA@gmail.com>
	<f208dde749de172c7e3289a9ffe2981d.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hMpKhnnEhrs6MdFG=xpiR1qmEWRkEUmOR-xDXgk5JP8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40503389-1EA0-4B02-883C-1A96FE76561C@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-24, at 11:53 AM, Fulko Hew wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:
> >
> >  Knowing enough about these things (CSS, JS, Bootstrap) to be dangerous is
> > good enough in a lot of cases.
> >
> 
> With the rate at which the flavour-of-the-month in Web techniques changes,
> it's sheer coincidence if one finishes a project with a detailed knowledge
> of the tools and processes favoured for the next one.
> 
> Surely, the real skill is knowing how to pick up and learn use new tools,
> without having to sit passively in front of an instructor? That's what the
> schooling industry claims to teach, and conspicuously doesn't.
> Unfortunately, this skill doesn't seem to have a name that a recruiter
> will recognise.
> 
> I call that skill 'being smart',  and its the second criteria I have, just following:
> 'can I understand your speech'.  My third most important criteria is 'what is your
> previous experience'.  But your right... how do you get that past a recruiter?

Having a portfolio of your Open Source work on github/CPAN/etc goes a long way to solving this problem.  When I've been involved in hiring decisions, if someone is already familiar to me because of their Open Source contributions, they already have a distinct advantage over those who don't.  If I don't know them but can see the work they've contributed to projects, that's still very helpful.

If I can see that you do well with X and Y, I might be inclined to believe that you can also cope with Z, even if you haven't worked with it before.  If that work isn't out there, it's harder for me to judge.  There's also the peer review aspect of Open Source that is very important.  If I see you've contributed to projects and that you've met their standards of code quality, it tells me about the quality of your work and also how well you work with other people.  I could go on about this for a while, but basically it comes down to people who get involved in Open Source being more of a known quantity.  This can be both good and bad, of course.  If you're a jerk in your dealings with other Open Source authors, that will work against you.  It's just a very simple way of opening up your work to the world and showing what you can do.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 12:59:54 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:59:54 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Gathering meetup.com attendees
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE_ybVukhG_253RRNYcPkg7fFksUJNZdpU3cMvt+N-dfMg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

We have our meeting tomorrow.  This is good.  We're getting some good
response from Meetup.com.  This is better.

Looks like there's going to be a number of newcomers as a result of this so
I'm hoping we can be a bit proactive on grabbing them in the Lobby.  If you
see any confused folk milling about tomorrow, please introduce yourself and
let them know the way of things.

Alan: I'll pre-volunteer to be the cell # you give to security:
416-993-4411.  Just want to have that in place so I can send out a message
via meetup.com with that info in it.

See you all tomorrow!

D
--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 13:03:40 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:03:40 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Gathering meetup.com attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE_ybVukhG_253RRNYcPkg7fFksUJNZdpU3cMvt+N-dfMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE_ybVukhG_253RRNYcPkg7fFksUJNZdpU3cMvt+N-dfMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AF4A51FA-6671-475A-B171-6E45485D3BC2@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-24, at 3:59 PM, Dave Doyle wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> We have our meeting tomorrow.  This is good.  We're getting some good response from Meetup.com.  This is better.
> 
> Looks like there's going to be a number of newcomers as a result of this so I'm hoping we can be a bit proactive on grabbing them in the Lobby.  If you see any confused folk milling about tomorrow, please introduce yourself and let them know the way of things.

This is a very good idea.  If anyone feels motivated to wait in the lobby (rather than upstairs) before the meeting, we could have a presence down there make sure nobody gets lost/confused.  To newcomers, I think it's kind of a confusing way to get to a meeting.

Olaf 
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 13:09:50 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:09:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Gathering meetup.com attendees
In-Reply-To: <AF4A51FA-6671-475A-B171-6E45485D3BC2@gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE_ybVukhG_253RRNYcPkg7fFksUJNZdpU3cMvt+N-dfMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF4A51FA-6671-475A-B171-6E45485D3BC2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE_379jPM_TgePNUCgPqPsB9pMx+YA-U4gp68ZKxLoXNUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 July 2013 16:03, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a very good idea.  If anyone feels motivated to wait in the lobby
> (rather than upstairs) before the meeting, we could have a presence down
> there make sure nobody gets lost/confused.  To newcomers, I think it's kind
> of a confusing way to get to a meeting.
>

Sadly, it is confusing.  From what I've seen of any tech groups though, we
have something very special: a rock solid reliable place to meet.  I know
of many groups that have expired because of the lack.  Amusingly, I've
noticed the Toronto Python meetup group has been abandoned by it's
organizer.  Gotta keep regular meetings going or face extinction, even the
"cool kids" are susceptible.

Also, of interest, we have 13 confirmed attendees via the meetup.com.  Not
all of you have signed up to meetup.com, so I'd encourage others to do so.
 The visibility in there really helps.

http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/

D
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From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Wed Jul 24 14:09:43 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:09:43 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Gathering meetup.com attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE_379jPM_TgePNUCgPqPsB9pMx+YA-U4gp68ZKxLoXNUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE_ybVukhG_253RRNYcPkg7fFksUJNZdpU3cMvt+N-dfMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF4A51FA-6671-475A-B171-6E45485D3BC2@gmail.com>
	<CAAyyWE_379jPM_TgePNUCgPqPsB9pMx+YA-U4gp68ZKxLoXNUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F04297.60204@utoronto.ca>

OANDA summer party is tomorrow, which may skewer a few regulars (or 
maybe not). Not that I need that excuse since I'm such a terrible 
attendee in general.

Adam

On 13-07-24 04:09 PM, Dave Doyle wrote:
> On 24 July 2013 16:03, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com
> <mailto:olaf.alders at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     This is a very good idea.  If anyone feels motivated to wait in the
>     lobby (rather than upstairs) before the meeting, we could have a
>     presence down there make sure nobody gets lost/confused.  To
>     newcomers, I think it's kind of a confusing way to get to a meeting.
>
>
> Sadly, it is confusing.  From what I've seen of any tech groups though,
> we have something very special: a rock solid reliable place to meet.  I
> know of many groups that have expired because of the lack.  Amusingly,
> I've noticed the Toronto Python meetup group has been abandoned by it's
> organizer.  Gotta keep regular meetings going or face extinction, even
> the "cool kids" are susceptible.
>
> Also, of interest, we have 13 confirmed attendees via the meetup.com
> <http://meetup.com>.  Not all of you have signed up to meetup.com
> <http://meetup.com>, so I'd encourage others to do so.  The visibility
> in there really helps.
>
> http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/
>
> D
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>


From jztam at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 24 16:51:56 2013
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] (s pam) Looking for a Camping Stove to borrow/own. Offers?
Message-ID: <1374709916.34244.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

?Sorry for the S PAM mongeren, 
? Just wondering if anyone can lend or sell me a camping stove.? Tommorrow being a perfect time to deal, if you have one.
Please hit me offlist. 
</spammish>
jordan
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 17:50:50 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:50:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Toronto.pm G+ profile
Message-ID: <800E5F57-7746-4A9B-A747-262FD2C79EE1@gmail.com>

I've created a G+ profile for TPM so that we can have an account for Hangouts that more than one person has access to.  Please add TPM to your circles so that we can track everyone and share Hangout info etc.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 17:51:38 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:51:38 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Fwd:  Toronto.pm G+ profile
References: <800E5F57-7746-4A9B-A747-262FD2C79EE1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AEADF818-BFD2-4781-92F4-4459C5578E33@gmail.com>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com>
> Subject: [tpm] Toronto.pm G+ profile
> Date: 24 July, 2013 8:50:50 PM EDT
> To: toronto-pm at pm.org
> 
> I've created a G+ profile for TPM so that we can have an account for Hangouts that more than one person has access to.  Please add TPM to your circles so that we can track everyone and share Hangout info etc.

Would have been even more helpful with an URL: https://plus.google.com/109254968433340573766/posts  

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 18:16:03 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:03 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Tomorrow's Google Hangout
Message-ID: <783E56B9-47A1-4CB4-AFEB-4D9A68C6D845@gmail.com>

Tomorrow's meeting will also be broadcast as a Google Hangout.  We've decided to try a "Hangout on Air".  If I understand correctly, we can start the Hangout at the meeting from the TPM G+ account and then invite people in our circles.  Up to 9 people can join in the Hangout directly.  Once we've got people in the Hangout, we'll click the broadcast button and then a stream will be available for anyone else who wishes to watch.  We can then archive the stream on Youtube for posterity, assuming the speaker is on board with this.

The rules for how Hangouts on Air work are posted here:

https://support.google.com/plus/answer/2459411?hl=en&ref_topic=2553242

Maybe a few of us can try a demo hangout earlier in the day tomorrow to make sure it's a smooth process.

So, basically, if you want to get a G+ notification when the hangout starts, add Toronto PerlMongers to your G+ circles (see my earlier email).  If you miss the first cutoff and want to watch a stream we'll post the hangout URL on our G+ page, Twitter and via email once we've gotten started.  This should all take place around 7 PM tomorrow evening.

OLaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From faisal at akber.net  Thu Jul 25 07:04:21 2013
From: faisal at akber.net (Syed Faisal Akber)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 10:04:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Tomorrow's Google Hangout
In-Reply-To: <783E56B9-47A1-4CB4-AFEB-4D9A68C6D845@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130725140421.5984397.11218.10520@akber.net>

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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Thu Jul 25 12:42:21 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 15:42:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Tomorrow's Google Hangout
In-Reply-To: <20130725140421.5984397.11218.10520@akber.net>
References: <20130725140421.5984397.11218.10520@akber.net>
Message-ID: <F9762640-6C52-4000-AE76-300D6108C408@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-25, at 10:04 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote:

> Is the meeting going to be recorded? 

It will be streamed and the stream will then be available in the TPM YouTube channel.  It's up to the speaker to decide whether she'd like the stream to be archived permanently, temporarily or not at all.  We'll discuss that this evening. :)

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From jbl at jbldata.com  Mon Jul 29 06:11:09 2013
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:11:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Anyone using something other than Google Calendar?
Message-ID: <51F669ED.9080809@jbldata.com>

Right now I'm using WebCalendar (http://www.k5n.us/webcalendar.php). 
Although it works, it's showing its age, and has no mobile client, so 
I'm relying on it's e-mail notifications.

I know there are many alternatives online, along with several 
self-hosted solutions like Zimbra.  I'm curious what everyone else is using?

Cheers,
-Bobby

-- 
J. Bobby Lopez
http://www.jbldata.com/


From faisal at akber.net  Mon Jul 29 08:16:53 2013
From: faisal at akber.net (Syed Faisal Akber)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:16:53 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Anyone using something other than Google Calendar?
In-Reply-To: <51F669ED.9080809@jbldata.com>
Message-ID: <20130729151653.5984397.77257.10864@akber.net>

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From jbl at jbldata.com  Mon Jul 29 10:08:28 2013
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:08:28 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Anyone using something other than Google Calendar?
In-Reply-To: <20130729151653.5984397.77257.10864@akber.net>
References: <20130729151653.5984397.77257.10864@akber.net>
Message-ID: <51F6A18C.3070904@jbldata.com>

Faisal, have you heard anything about Zimbra being able to do 
replication?  For example keeping two remote instances in sync?

On 13-07-29 11:16 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote:
> I am considering setting up a zimbra instance myself.   I am using 
> OwnCloud right now and it's not bad.
>
> I want something more robust and includes mail.
>
> Faisal
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> *From: *J. Bobby Lopez
> *Sent: *Monday, July 29, 2013 09:11
> *To: *toronto-pm at pm.org
> *Reply To: *jbl at jbldata.com
> *Subject: *[tpm] Anyone using something other than Google Calendar?
>
>
> Right now I'm using WebCalendar (http://www.k5n.us/webcalendar.php).
> Although it works, it's showing its age, and has no mobile client, so
> I'm relying on it's e-mail notifications.
>
> I know there are many alternatives online, along with several
> self-hosted solutions like Zimbra. I'm curious what everyone else is 
> using?
>
> Cheers,
> -Bobby
>
> -- 
> J. Bobby Lopez
> http://www.jbldata.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm


-- 
J. Bobby Lopez
http://www.jbldata.com/

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From jbl at jbldata.com  Mon Jul 29 12:23:37 2013
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:23:37 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Check out "CPAN Sidekick"
Message-ID: <CAGcmr9ZJAi0565mz5zuUPw7FL5AEM-Xn7y8uwF1nMxbjh0RSpg@mail.gmail.com>

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qubling.sidekick

Haven't tried it cause it non-free.  Seems like its just an android client
for MetaCPAN. Anyone using this?
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 12:30:26 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:30:26 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Check out "CPAN Sidekick"
In-Reply-To: <CAGcmr9ZJAi0565mz5zuUPw7FL5AEM-Xn7y8uwF1nMxbjh0RSpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGcmr9ZJAi0565mz5zuUPw7FL5AEM-Xn7y8uwF1nMxbjh0RSpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <091A2A00-F7A0-42EF-95D7-2890B7521F7A@gmail.com>


On 2013-07-29, at 3:23 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote:

> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qubling.sidekick
> 
> Haven't tried it cause it non-free.  Seems like its just an android client for MetaCPAN. Anyone using this?

I haven't used it, but the code is here: https://github.com/zostay/CPAN-Sidekick  Unlike iCPAN, CPAN Sidekick uses the MetaCPAN API directly to fetch results etc.  It looks decent, but I gave up my Android devices.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From faisal at akber.net  Mon Jul 29 15:13:31 2013
From: faisal at akber.net (Syed Faisal Akber)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:13:31 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Anyone using something other than Google Calendar?
In-Reply-To: <51F6A18C.3070904@jbldata.com>
References: <20130729151653.5984397.77257.10864@akber.net>
	<51F6A18C.3070904@jbldata.com>
Message-ID: <20130729221331.5984397.77309.10904@akber.net>

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From michelle at michellewarren.ca  Fri Jul 26 14:04:39 2013
From: michelle at michellewarren.ca (Michelle Warren)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:04:39 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Last night's career discussion
In-Reply-To: <F9762640-6C52-4000-AE76-300D6108C408@gmail.com>
References: <20130725140421.5984397.11218.10520@akber.net>
	<F9762640-6C52-4000-AE76-300D6108C408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401ce8a43$beaa0b20$3bfe2160$@ca>

Hi Toronto Perl Mongers,

 

Thanks a bunch for the insightful conversation last night. I enjoyed hanging
out with you and discussing career planning, networking, job interviews and
communication tips.

 

Attached is a PDF of my slides, which we didn't tackle as a prezi but did in
our workshop discussion.

 

My apologies for the Google Plus/PC battery mishap!

 

I wish you all lots of luck and success!  If you have any questions, please
feel free to contact me. 

 

(I also offer individual and group career/communication coaching programs,
as well as workshops to help address workplace communications and
productivity. Let me know if you would like further information. J)

 

Enjoy your weekends, Michelle

 

--

Michelle Warren

Dir: 416.436.0870

E-mail: Michelle at MichelleWarren.ca

 

"You don't have to be great to get started, you have to get started to be
great." ~ Les Brown

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From bulk at blit.ca  Wed Jul 31 11:10:27 2013
From: bulk at blit.ca (Chris Reuter)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:10:27 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
Message-ID: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>

Hi Folks,

I seem to have gotten a small contract with an American company.
Since a lot of people here do cross-border contracting, I was hoping
to get some advice.

My specific questions are (in no particular order):

1. Should I incorporate?

2. Is it true that I can operate a sole proprietorship in my own name
without needing to register anything?

3. Will I need to charge the customer (who is American) HST?  (The
point is moot right now because it's not enough money to qualify, but
I'm curious.)

4. Is there a preferred method of payment?

5. Do I need insurance?

6. Are there any tax gotchas I need to watch out for?

7. Do you have any other advice and/or pointers to resources?

Thanks in advance,


                               --Chris



From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Wed Jul 31 11:22:41 2013
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:22:41 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
Message-ID: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
future customers.

3. You do not charge US customers HST.

4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca

From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Wed Jul 31 11:22:41 2013
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:22:41 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
Message-ID: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
future customers.

3. You do not charge US customers HST.

4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca

From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 11:23:16 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:23:16 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
Message-ID: <4EA7FA77-08F1-4991-83FB-1709B7F0B8EA@gmail.com>

Hi Chris,

Congrats on the gig.  :)

On 2013-07-31, at 2:10 PM, Chris Reuter wrote:

> Hi Folks,
> 
> I seem to have gotten a small contract with an American company.
> Since a lot of people here do cross-border contracting, I was hoping
> to get some advice.
> 
> My specific questions are (in no particular order):
> 
> 1. Should I incorporate?

I think that may be a question for your accountant and/or lawyer.  I've done lots of work for US clients and have never incorporated, but if there are issues of liability, incorporation might be right for you.

> 
> 2. Is it true that I can operate a sole proprietorship in my own name
> without needing to register anything?

I registered a business name and listed it as a sole proprietorship, but I don't know if there's a requirement for that.  It might make it easier to get a business bank account etc.

> 
> 3. Will I need to charge the customer (who is American) HST?  (The
> point is moot right now because it's not enough money to qualify, but
> I'm curious.)

Generally, no.  If the client doesn't have a presence in Canada, then you wouldn't charge them HST.


> 
> 4. Is there a preferred method of payment?

Cheques can be slow to clear cross border (at least that's what your bank will tell you when the put an arbitrary hold on it) but if you're dealing with larger amounts, the PayPal % gets to be significant.  i.e., it might cost you $30 to accept a $1000 payment.  In my case, I have my employer pay a 3rd party HR firm which pays me via direct deposit.

> 
> 5. Do I need insurance?
> 
> 6. Are there any tax gotchas I need to watch out for?
> 
> 7. Do you have any other advice and/or pointers to resources?

If it's a short contract and you haven't dealt with them before, you can see about getting a good % of the money up front and then make sure you get paid at regular intervals throughout the job.  The simple act of getting paid on time can be excruciating, depending on whom you're dealing with, so getting something before you even start can be a motivator for both parties.

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From lists at alteeve.ca  Wed Jul 31 11:32:40 2013
From: lists at alteeve.ca (Digimer)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:32:40 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
Message-ID: <51F95848.4060602@alteeve.ca>

You *really* need to speak to a certified accountant. These are not 
small questions and the answers have non-trivial legal implications. You 
should not rely on the advice of lay-public for this, no matter how 
otherwise-talented the giver of advice may be.

If you don't have a CA, I can give you the name of my CA. Alternatively, 
ask anyone in business who you trust for their CA's contact information.

Good luck and congrats on the contract!

digimer

On 31/07/13 14:10, Chris Reuter wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I seem to have gotten a small contract with an American company.
> Since a lot of people here do cross-border contracting, I was hoping
> to get some advice.
>
> My specific questions are (in no particular order):
>
> 1. Should I incorporate?
>
> 2. Is it true that I can operate a sole proprietorship in my own name
> without needing to register anything?
>
> 3. Will I need to charge the customer (who is American) HST?  (The
> point is moot right now because it's not enough money to qualify, but
> I'm curious.)
>
> 4. Is there a preferred method of payment?
>
> 5. Do I need insurance?
>
> 6. Are there any tax gotchas I need to watch out for?
>
> 7. Do you have any other advice and/or pointers to resources?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>                                --Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm


-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/
What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without 
access to education?

From liam at holoweb.net  Wed Jul 31 11:46:09 2013
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:46:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1375296369.3723.274.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2013-07-31 at 14:22 -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> 1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
> future customers.

As s sole proprietor you'll need to fill in W8BEN US tax withholding
forms for every supplier/client.

> 3. You do not charge US customers HST.

Right.

> 
> 4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
> business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

This depends on the bank and the names on the cheque. For RBC you can
get a message on your account not to hold cheques from a specific
"trusted" source, and then the money is usually available immediately.

You can also get paid by bank transfer - TD and RBC both have US banks,
and you can transfer money using internet banking (I've done this for
RBC, not TD, though).

> 
> 7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
> you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

Yes. You are there for sales meetings. They are not paying you for your
time while you are there. Do not lie - don't charge the client for that
time unless you have a work permit.

Hope this helps.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml


From liam at holoweb.net  Wed Jul 31 11:46:09 2013
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:46:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1375296369.3723.274.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2013-07-31 at 14:22 -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> 1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
> future customers.

As s sole proprietor you'll need to fill in W8BEN US tax withholding
forms for every supplier/client.

> 3. You do not charge US customers HST.

Right.

> 
> 4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
> business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

This depends on the bank and the names on the cheque. For RBC you can
get a message on your account not to hold cheques from a specific
"trusted" source, and then the money is usually available immediately.

You can also get paid by bank transfer - TD and RBC both have US banks,
and you can transfer money using internet banking (I've done this for
RBC, not TD, though).

> 
> 7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
> you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

Yes. You are there for sales meetings. They are not paying you for your
time while you are there. Do not lie - don't charge the client for that
time unless you have a work permit.

Hope this helps.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml


From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Wed Jul 31 12:11:43 2013
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:11:43 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <1375296369.3723.274.camel@localhost>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	<1375296369.3723.274.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20130731191143.GA13117@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 02:46:09PM -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote:
>> 7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
>> you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.
>
>Yes. You are there for sales meetings. They are not paying you for your
>time while you are there. Do not lie - don't charge the client for that
>time unless you have a work permit.

This is where it gets muddy. If you are incorporated, the client is
paying your company. Your company pays you. From a certain view point
you are not working in the US for a US corporation even if you are
billing for the trip.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca

From mike_sivec at yahoo.ca  Wed Jul 31 12:37:06 2013
From: mike_sivec at yahoo.ca (Sivec Mike)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1375299426.11132.YahooMailNeo@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

<<?do not charge US customers HST.?>>
?

but CRA will want their cut... regardless. ?yes?
so on every $100 you invoice, 11.50 is HST. ?(88.50 * 1.13% = $100.)



________________________________
 From: Neil Watson <pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca>
To: toronto-pm at pm.org; Toronto PerlMongers <tpm at to.pm.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:22:41 PM
Subject: Re: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
 

1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
future customers.

3. You do not charge US customers HST.

4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From mike_sivec at yahoo.ca  Wed Jul 31 12:37:06 2013
From: mike_sivec at yahoo.ca (Sivec Mike)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1375299426.11132.YahooMailNeo@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

<<?do not charge US customers HST.?>>
?

but CRA will want their cut... regardless. ?yes?
so on every $100 you invoice, 11.50 is HST. ?(88.50 * 1.13% = $100.)



________________________________
 From: Neil Watson <pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca>
To: toronto-pm at pm.org; Toronto PerlMongers <tpm at to.pm.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:22:41 PM
Subject: Re: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
 

1. Incorporation is expensive, but will make you more attractive to
future customers.

3. You do not charge US customers HST.

4. Get your payment via wire transfers. International cheques take 30
business days to clear. Wire's are available immediately.

7. If you travel to the US on business always tell immigration that
you are there to meet with clients rather than to work.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Wed Jul 31 12:43:40 2013
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:43:40 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cross-border contracting
In-Reply-To: <1375299426.11132.YahooMailNeo@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <51F95313.3070608@blit.ca>
	<20130731182241.GB6729@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	<1375299426.11132.YahooMailNeo@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20130731194340.GA17169@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:37:06PM -0700, Sivec Mike wrote:
>
>
>   <<?do not charge US customers HST.?>>
>   ?
>   but CRA will want their cut... regardless. ?yes?
>   so on every $100 you invoice, 11.50 is HST. ?(88.50 * 1.13% = $100.)

I do not think so. I got a big HST refund a few years ago because most
of my business was with the US that year. Talk to a CA.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca