From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Jun 1 19:25:02 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:25:02 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects Message-ID: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> This is the best news for the Open Source community I've heard in ages! Big money awards to the students too! ($4,500). Check it out: Google's Summer of Code posted by KM on Wednesday June 01, @12:12 (The Perl Foundation) http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1552221 Perhaps SPUG could qualify as a "mentoring organization"; it would be fun, and worth $500 to us per student! -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From dan at concolor.org Wed Jun 1 20:26:10 2005 From: dan at concolor.org (Daniel Sabath) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:26:10 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Trouble with DBD::Sybase In-Reply-To: <20050531051115.GI6036@ifokr.org> References: <20050531051115.GI6036@ifokr.org> Message-ID: <0a7397eff32084e6099b38debea26c21@concolor.org> On May 30, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Brian Hatch wrote: > Anyone use DBD::Sybase to talk to a MS SQL server and call > stored procedures with bind parameters? When I do this I was using DBD::Sybase, but I ran into the same kind of problems with bind parameters. Now, we're using unixODBC and freetds and no problem. Pamela (via dan's account) From allison at perl.org Wed Jun 1 21:25:16 2005 From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:25:16 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects In-Reply-To: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2005, at 19:25, Tim Maher wrote: > This is the best news for the Open Source community I've heard > in ages! Big money awards to the students too! ($4,500). > > Check it out: > > Google's Summer of Code > posted by KM on Wednesday June 01, @12:12 (The Perl Foundation) > http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1552221 > > Perhaps SPUG could qualify as a "mentoring organization"; it would > be fun, and worth $500 to us per student! Google wants one central group for each language, but TPF would certainly be happy to have volunteer mentors from SPUG, and distribute the organizational share accordingly. (I'd connect you with Baden Hughes, secretary of the grants committee, to work out the details. He's acting as our primary contact with Google too.) Allison -- Allison Randal President, The Perl Foundation From jay at scherrer.com Wed Jun 1 21:35:17 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:35:17 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects In-Reply-To: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <1117686917.5007.10.camel@gimly> I have a computer lab just waiting to be used as class room. It has about 10-15 boxes with Internet connection. Jay Scherrer On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 19:25 -0700, Tim Maher wrote: > This is the best news for the Open Source community I've heard > in ages! Big money awards to the students too! ($4,500). > > Check it out: > > Google's Summer of Code > posted by KM on Wednesday June 01, @12:12 (The Perl Foundation) > http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1552221 > > Perhaps SPUG could qualify as a "mentoring organization"; it would > be fun, and worth $500 to us per student! > > -Tim > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | > | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From haircut at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 21:49:46 2005 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:49:46 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects In-Reply-To: <1117686917.5007.10.camel@gimly> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <1117686917.5007.10.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <9ebd65110506012149327beec5@mail.gmail.com> I'd be happy to be a Perl mentor. I also tend to believe that Google giving nearly a million to fund FOSS projects is a Good Thing. On 6/1/05, Jay Scherrer wrote: > I have a computer lab just waiting to be used as class room. It has > about 10-15 boxes with Internet connection. > > Jay Scherrer [...] -- Adam Monsen http://adammonsen.com/ From allison at perl.org Wed Jun 1 22:16:01 2005 From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:16:01 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110506012149327beec5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <1117686917.5007.10.camel@gimly> <9ebd65110506012149327beec5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <86703c0e73185dcf94cdc8ec38073aae@perl.org> On Jun 1, 2005, at 21:49, Adam Monsen wrote: > I'd be happy to be a Perl mentor. I've passed Jay's and your information on to Baden. > I also tend to believe that Google giving nearly a million to fund > FOSS projects is a Good Thing. Definitely. Allison From jay at scherrer.com Fri Jun 3 10:23:16 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:23:16 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Google paying students for OpenSource Projects In-Reply-To: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> List, Is SPUG working on this? Dead line is June 14th 2005 Jay Scherrer On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 19:25 -0700, Tim Maher wrote: > This is the best news for the Open Source community I've heard > in ages! Big money awards to the students too! ($4,500). > > Check it out: > > Google's Summer of Code > posted by KM on Wednesday June 01, @12:12 (The Perl Foundation) > http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1552221 > > Perhaps SPUG could qualify as a "mentoring organization"; it would > be fun, and worth $500 to us per student! > > -Tim > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | > | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Mon Jun 6 13:47:32 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:47:32 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests In-Reply-To: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> References: <20050602022502.GA16714@jumpy.consultix-inc.com>, <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <2059380B-4648-4378-B2DB-D908069CB585@mimectl> List, I got a script I need to modify on the script is using Test::More module but on this cases I don't have output of if the OK() errors or nothing like that and I would like to implement Test::Simple tests module get a feel if is working or not but I haven't see much documentation about this. Any of you has experience implementing this modules or if you can point me to documentation where make this transition. Thanks, Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050606/1a68f681/attachment.html From cmeyer at helvella.org Mon Jun 6 14:03:40 2005 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:03:40 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests In-Reply-To: <2059380B-4648-4378-B2DB-D908069CB585@mimectl> References: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> <2059380B-4648-4378-B2DB-D908069CB585@mimectl> Message-ID: <20050606210340.GH31096@funpox.helvella.org> Hi Luis, On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 01:47:32PM -0700, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > List, > I got a script I need to modify on the script is using Test::More > module but on this cases I don't have output of if the OK() errors or > nothing like that and I would like to implement Test::Simple tests > module get a feel if is working or not but I haven't see much > documentation about this. Any of you has experience implementing this > modules or if you can point me to documentation where make this > transition. I am not sure if I am understanding your question correctly. Test::More and Test::Simple are compatible with eachother. They both produce output that can be consumed by Test::Harness, and are inline with the defacto testing style of nearly all CPAN modules. If you have some existing tests for your script, and would like to write additional tests using Test::Simple instead of Test::More, then yes, that will work fine. -Colin. From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Mon Jun 6 14:13:53 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:13:53 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests In-Reply-To: <20050606210340.GH31096@funpox.helvella.org> References: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> <2059380B-4648-4378-B2DB-D908069CB585@mimectl>, <20050606210340.GH31096@funpox.helvella.org> Message-ID: how can be implementing Test: more with Test::Harness? Thanks, Luis From: Colin Meyer Sent: Mon 6/6/2005 3:03 PM To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E Cc: spug-list at pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests Hi Luis, On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 01:47:32PM -0700, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > List, > I got a script I need to modify on the script is using Test::More > module but on this cases I don't have output of if the OK() errors or > nothing like that and I would like to implement Test::Simple tests > module get a feel if is working or not but I haven't see much > documentation about this. Any of you has experience implementing this > modules or if you can point me to documentation where make this > transition. I am not sure if I am understanding your question correctly. Test::More and Test::Simple are compatible with eachother. They both produce output that can be consumed by Test::Harness, and are inline with the defacto testing style of nearly all CPAN modules. If you have some existing tests for your script, and would like to write additional tests using Test::Simple instead of Test::More, then yes, that will work fine. -Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050606/2ce7dd8d/attachment.html From cmeyer at helvella.org Mon Jun 6 14:21:13 2005 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:21:13 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests In-Reply-To: References: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> <20050606210340.GH31096@funpox.helvella.org> Message-ID: <20050606212113.GI31096@funpox.helvella.org> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:13:53PM -0700, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > how can be implementing Test: more with Test::Harness? Test::Harness is a module that provides the ability to run tests (which need to be based on, or compatible with Test::Simple or Test::More), and summarize the results. If you have many different files, each with one or more tests in them, Test::Harness can help you run all of the tests in all of the files, and then present the results in a fashion that is easy to read. So, you write your tests with Test::Simple or Test::More, and then use Test::Harness to run them. For more information, see the fine documentation at: http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/Test-Harness-2.48/lib/Test/Harness.pm -Colin. From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Mon Jun 6 15:22:51 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:22:51 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests In-Reply-To: <20050606215540.GJ31096@funpox.helvella.org> References: <1117819396.4931.10.camel@gimly> <20050606210340.GH31096@funpox.helvella.org> <20050606212113.GI31096@funpox.helvella.org> <64B2BB69-3650-45D5-AD7C-294024A90219@mimectl>, <20050606215540.GJ31096@funpox.helvella.org> Message-ID: <4CBA1B49-BD67-4024-BCA5-02AAB5CC3EC2@mimectl> perl doesn't have have a module to write to a log?..or some thing like that? thanks, Luis From: Colin Meyer Sent: Mon 6/6/2005 3:55 PM To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E Subject: Re: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:41:25PM -0700, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Another question, how can I log into a file all the output from either > Test::Simple or from Test::more? If you have a file called my_test.pl, that uses Test::More, then try: perl my_test.pl >> some_log_file This will append the output of my_test.pl to some_log_file. (That's for a unix style system ... I can't help you for windows.) -Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050606/4fbe1654/attachment.html From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Mon Jun 6 15:40:47 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:40:47 -0700 Subject: SPUG: diference between Test::More and use Test::Simple tests Message-ID: > perl doesn't have have a module to write to a log?..or some thing like that? Lots of 'em: http://search.cpan.org/search?query=log&mode=module hth, -- Charles DeRykus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050606/4177b4bd/attachment.html From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Jun 8 12:42:31 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:42:31 -0700 Subject: SPUG: FW: Linux Opportunities with Volt Message-ID: FYI Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: McDonnell, Lindsay [mailto:lmcdonnell at Volt.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: Linux Opportunities with Volt Hello Brian, Ken and Douglas! My name is Lindsay McDonnell, and I am a recruiter with Volt Technical Resources. A few Linux-related positions have just opened up, and I was wondering if anyone in the GSLUG was currently seeking employment. We are asking for Linux enthusiasts who also posses some Unix skills as well. They must have deep experience and not just be hobbyists. They Must know how to add/remove programs in a Linux Server environment. Some software dev on Linux or Unix is necessary; they need to know Perl, Python and shell scripting and have familiarity with C and Java. If you know of someone, please let me know! This is a great opportunity that has the potential for a lot of growth. Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions! Thanks for your help, and I look forward to hearing from you! Best Regards, Lindsay McDonnell Recruiter Volt Technical Resources 11261 Willows Road, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 lmcdonnell at volt.com t: 425.702.9000 tf: 800.253.9605 f: 425.702.0415 From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 9 15:59:45 2005 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:59:45 -0700 Subject: SPUG: 64 bit Perl Message-ID: Folks, I'm very ignorant about the internals of Perl, and I've run into a consideration that I just don't have a clue about. Is there likely to be any benefit to a 64 bit machine instead of a 32 bit one, in terms of speed of Perl on it, or is that just throwing money down the drain? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Peter Darley From sthoenna at efn.org Fri Jun 10 02:55:52 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:55:52 -0700 Subject: SPUG: 64 bit Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050610095552.GA3040@efn.org> On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 03:59:45PM -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > Folks, > I'm very ignorant about the internals of Perl, and I've run into a > consideration that I just don't have a clue about. > Is there likely to be any benefit to a 64 bit machine instead of a 32 bit > one, in terms of speed of Perl on it, or is that just throwing money down > the drain? Any input would be appreciated. WAG: just throwing money down the drain. From jay at scherrer.com Fri Jun 10 09:43:23 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:43:23 -0700 Subject: SPUG: 64 bit Perl In-Reply-To: <20050610095552.GA3040@efn.org> References: <20050610095552.GA3040@efn.org> Message-ID: <1118421803.5047.11.camel@gimly> Peter, I don't know yet if they have fixed Perl6's md5 test. But if you do any big functions the 64 bits help. I am learning to use the 128 bits for media. If you want I can send you the white papers describing the added registers. But from what I gather most operands default to 32 bit unless specified through the Rex prefix. If you know of some tests to base your decision let me know. Here's my version print of perl. Summary of my perl5 (revision 5 version 8 subversion 6) configuration: Platform: osname=linux, osvers=2.6.10-1.770_fc3, archname=x86_64-linux-multi- ld uname='linux gimly 2.6.10-1.770_fc3 #1 thu feb 24 18:09:38 est 2005 x86_64 x 86_64 x86_64 gnulinux ' config_args='' hint=recommended, useposix=true, d_sigaction=define usethreads=undef use5005threads=undef useithreads=undef usemultiplicity=defi ne useperlio=define d_sfio=undef uselargefiles=define usesocks=undef use64bitint=define use64bitall=define uselongdouble=define usemymalloc=n, bincompat5005=undef Compiler: cc='gcc', ccflags ='-fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -I/usr/local/include -D_LARGE FILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -I/usr/include/gdbm', optimize='-O2', cppflags='-fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -I/usr/local/include - I/usr/include/gdb m' ccversion='', gccversion='3.4.2 20041017 (Red Hat 3.4.2-6.fc3)', gccosandver s='' intsize=4, longsize=8, ptrsize=8, doublesize=8, byteorder=12345678 d_longlong=define, longlongsize=8, d_longdbl=define, longdblsize=16 ivtype='long', ivsize=8, nvtype='long double', nvsize=16, Off_t='off_t', lse eksize=8 alignbytes=16, prototype=define Linker and Libraries: ld='gcc', ldflags =' -L/usr/local/lib' libpth=/usr/local/lib /lib /usr/lib libs=-lbind -lnsl -ldl -lm -lcrypt -lutil -lc perllibs=-lbind -lnsl -ldl -lm -lcrypt -lutil -lc libc=/lib/libc-2.3.4.so, so=so, useshrplib=true, libperl=libperl.so gnulibc_version='2.3.4' Dynamic Linking: dlsrc=dl_dlopen.xs, dlext=so, d_dlsymun=undef, ccdlflags='-Wl,-E - Wl,-rpath, /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.6/x86_64-linux-multi-ld/CORE' cccdlflags='-fpic', lddlflags='-shared -L/usr/local/lib' Characteristics of this binary (from libperl): Compile-time options: MULTIPLICITY USE_64_BIT_INT USE_64_BIT_ALL USE_LONG_DOUB LE USE_LARGE_FILES PERL_IMPLICIT_CONTEXT Built under linux Compiled at Mar 18 2005 10:13:28 @INC: /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.6/x86_64-linux-multi-ld /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.6 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/x86_64-linux-multi-ld /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl . Jay Scherrer On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 02:55 -0700, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: > On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 03:59:45PM -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > > Folks, > > I'm very ignorant about the internals of Perl, and I've run into a > > consideration that I just don't have a clue about. > > Is there likely to be any benefit to a 64 bit machine instead of a 32 bit > > one, in terms of speed of Perl on it, or is that just throwing money down > > the drain? Any input would be appreciated. > > WAG: just throwing money down the drain. > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From mike at planetudes.com Sat Jun 11 19:21:06 2005 From: mike at planetudes.com (Mike McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> Imagine how much cheaper and quicker it would be if they didn't use MS-word. I am anouncing now that I refuse to deal with a publisher who not only uses MS-word but then complains that it takes too long and has to charge extra. Tim Maher said: > Fellow SPUGsters, > > Many have been wondering about the current status of my book called > "Minimal Perl: for UNIX & Linux people", so here's a quick update. > > The (multi-stage) review process was completed a while ago, the > final modifications have been made, and we're currently working > on the "typesetting". > > There have been some unexpected delays in this last phase, having to > do with the reluctance of documents based on a combination of POD, > troff, and tbl to being converted to MS-Word, but we expect the Ebook > (i.e., the electronic edition) to become available in late July, and > the paper version to be available in late August. > > The publisher has set up a mailing list for those who want to be notified > when the Ebook and paper editions become available, which you can join by > clicking on "Want to Stay in Touch" at the book's web site, > http://www.manning.com/maher > > -Tim > P.S. The price shown on the web-site is a "worst-case estimate", and > will probably come down once we determine the actual page-count, which > could be considerably smaller after the conversion to Word is finished. > > P.P.S. WE'RE TAKING REQUESTS! > If you or your colleagues are interested in any of our 2+ dozen courses > on UNIX, Linux, or Perl topics, let us know and we'll be happy to consider > presenting them in public or on-site offerings to suit your needs. > > ************************************************************ > > CONSULTIX ON-LINE RESOURCES > General Information: > http://www.consultix-inc.com > > On-Site Training: > http://www.consultix-inc.com/on-site.html > > Course Listings: > Perl, http://TeachMePerl.com/perllist.html > UNIX/Shell, http://TeachMeUnix.com/unixlist.html > > Instructor Evaluations: http://www.consultix-inc.com/evals.html > Course Evaluations: http://www.consultix-inc.com/course_evals.html > > -Tim > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX > | > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com > | > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" > | > | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup > | > *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 12 08:22:08 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:22:08 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> Message-ID: <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 07:21:06PM -0700, Mike McLaughlin wrote: > Imagine how much cheaper and quicker it would be if they didn't use > MS-word. And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the publishing industry. > I am announcing now that I refuse to deal with a publisher who > not only uses MS-word but then complains that it takes too long and has to > charge extra. The publisher is /not/ charging the readers extra because the author has to submit the manuscript in MS-Word format. The book's price is based on the estimated final page count, which is shrinking by 10-25% per chapter as I convert my Courier- font troff/tbl-based tables into MS-Word proportional-font tables. So if anything, the conversion to MS-Word is /diminishing/ the price of the book, compared to the format I've been using. My gripe is just that it's taking a lot of time to do the conversion, largely because the MS-Word "macro" facility is so lame that I can't automate very many of the necessary markup re-mappings. ============================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim(AT)TeachMePerl.com | | SPUG Leader Emeritus spug(AT)TeachMePerl.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group http://www.SeattlePerl.com | | SPUG Wiki Site http://Spugwiki.Perlocity.org | ============================================================== From bill at celestial.com Sun Jun 12 11:35:11 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:35:11 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20050612183511.GA42708@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Sun, Jun 12, 2005, Tim Maher wrote: >On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 07:21:06PM -0700, Mike McLaughlin wrote: >> Imagine how much cheaper and quicker it would be if they didn't use >> MS-word. > >And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, >standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the >publishing industry. That doesn't say much for the publishing industry as MS-Word isn't particularly suited for production of large documents in that it doesn't have the document wide macro and formatting capabilities of other publishing software (e.g. TeX, groff, Docbook XML/SGML). I imagine that Knuth, author of TeX, would have many interesting things to say about MS- Word. I do most of my documentation, writing for groff -mm macros, with a perl translator that converts this to Docbook XML (largely because I haven't found an editor for XML that I'm willing to use -- I don't do Emacs). I think there are technical publishers who have standardized on Docbook XML. I had a long conversation with Phil Hughes, owner of SSC, and publisher of Linux Journal, talking about the efficiency of MS-Word. A mutual friend, who was one of the original board members of the Seattle Unix Group and an employee in the early days of SSC, was called in by her boss at Microsoft and asked if she could explain why she was five or six times more productive than anybody else in his department. Her answer was that she wrote everything using ``vi'', and converted the final product into Word. Perhaps when MS-Word stores all its documents in XML, it will be reasonably easy to convert from open standard documents to Word. There certainly is growing pressure towards open data format standards, even from government agencies that don't want to get locked into proprietary systems. >> I am announcing now that I refuse to deal with a publisher who >> not only uses MS-word but then complains that it takes too long and has to >> charge extra. > >The publisher is /not/ charging the readers extra because the >author has to submit the manuscript in MS-Word format. > >The book's price is based on the estimated final page count, >which is shrinking by 10-25% per chapter as I convert my Courier- >font troff/tbl-based tables into MS-Word proportional-font >tables. So if anything, the conversion to MS-Word is /diminishing/ the >price of the book, compared to the format I've been using. > >My gripe is just that it's taking a lot of time to do the >conversion, largely because the MS-Word "macro" facility is so >lame that I can't automate very many of the necessary markup >re-mappings. The publisher isn't paying you for this extra work. It would be one thing if there were large profits for authors in writing technical books, but there's not enough to get me to deal with the frustration of dealing with Microsoft software. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.'' -James Madison, Federalist Paper #62 From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 12 14:06:06 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:06:06 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612183511.GA42708@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <20050612183511.GA42708@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <20050612210606.GA3375@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Sun, Jun 12, 2005 at 11:35:11AM -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: > >Like it or not, > >standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the > >publishing industry. > > That doesn't say much for the publishing industry as MS-Word isn't > particularly suited for production of large documents . . . That's certainly true, and FWIW, and I don't think many (if any) publishers actually /use/ Word for their layout, because it's clearly not up to the job. To clarify my situation, and my previous postings, Word is the standard format for /manuscript submission/, but AFAIK most publishers (like mine) import those Word documents into more sophisticated ones for doing the actual page layout, such as Quark Express and FrameMaker, and use output from those for printing. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From allison at perl.org Sun Jun 12 14:49:26 2005 From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:49:26 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <36659bbab4c8230d114a543533413c99@perl.org> On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:22, Tim Maher wrote: > On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 07:21:06PM -0700, Mike McLaughlin wrote: >> Imagine how much cheaper and quicker it would be if they didn't use >> MS-word. > > And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, > standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the > publishing industry. How about POD or Docbook XML? O'Reilly handles both, but I tend to encourage my authors to go with POD, because it's easier to work with. (Three cheers for source control on plain text formats. :) Oddly, some authors prefer Word. This I will never understand, but I work with it because it's important for authors to be comfortable with whatever format they're using. (Writing is hard enough without having to slug your way through tools you hate.) Ultimately, I think the tech publishing industry will move away from Word. Not tomorrow, not in the next 6 months, and probably not even in the next 6 years. But younger and hungrier publishers are coming along with innovative and agile publishing strategies that beat the pants off the established publishing industry (Pragmatic Bookshelf is one great example). They depend on text-based formats, source control, and automated build processes. It's about time tech publishers started using the technologies they're publishing about. :) Just my $0.02, Allison From allison at perl.org Sun Jun 12 14:54:42 2005 From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:54:42 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612210606.GA3375@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <20050612183511.GA42708@alexis.mi.celestial.com> <20050612210606.GA3375@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <4281ed4bfc19a3aac62055ff41fc6197@perl.org> On Jun 12, 2005, at 14:06, Tim Maher wrote: > On Sun, Jun 12, 2005 at 11:35:11AM -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: >> >> That doesn't say much for the publishing industry as MS-Word isn't >> particularly suited for production of large documents . . . > > That's certainly true, and FWIW, and I don't think many (if any) > publishers actually /use/ Word for their layout, because it's > clearly not up to the job. > > To clarify my situation, and my previous postings, Word is > the standard format for /manuscript submission/, but AFAIK > most publishers (like mine) import those Word documents into > more sophisticated ones for doing the actual page layout, > such as Quark Express and FrameMaker, and use output from > those for printing. Yup. You're right on target there. Allison From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 12 15:03:17 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:03:17 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <36659bbab4c8230d114a543533413c99@perl.org> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <36659bbab4c8230d114a543533413c99@perl.org> Message-ID: <20050612220317.GA4015@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Sun, Jun 12, 2005 at 02:49:26PM -0700, Allison Randal wrote: > On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:22, Tim Maher wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 07:21:06PM -0700, Mike McLaughlin wrote: > >> Imagine how much cheaper and quicker it would be if they didn't use > >> MS-word. > > > > And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, > > standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the > > publishing industry. > > How about POD or Docbook XML? O'Reilly handles both, but I tend to > encourage my authors to go with POD, because it's easier to work with. > (Three cheers for source control on plain text formats. :) FYI, I wrote my manuscript in a version of POD, enhanced to be able to extract, execute, and capture output from the embedded program examples, and with hooks to import tables from troff's tbl command. 8-} I was able to prepare the drafts very rapidly using vim, podspell, and other standard tools, without the time-intensive mousing around (I'm touch typist) that Word requires. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 12 15:05:07 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:05:07 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <4281ed4bfc19a3aac62055ff41fc6197@perl.org> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <20050612183511.GA42708@alexis.mi.celestial.com> <20050612210606.GA3375@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <4281ed4bfc19a3aac62055ff41fc6197@perl.org> Message-ID: <20050612220507.GB4015@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Sun, Jun 12, 2005 at 02:54:42PM -0700, Allison Randal wrote: > > Yup. You're right on target there. > > Allison Glad to hear you can corroborate my views; thanks! -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From allison at perl.org Mon Jun 13 17:04:16 2005 From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:04:16 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612220317.GA4015@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <36659bbab4c8230d114a543533413c99@perl.org> <20050612220317.GA4015@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <7df8b8b43be0a6cd3af242f679891584@perl.org> On Jun 12, 2005, at 15:03, Tim Maher wrote: > > FYI, I wrote my manuscript in a version of POD, enhanced to be able to > extract, execute, and capture output from the embedded program > examples, > and with hooks to import tables from troff's tbl command. 8-} I'd be interested in seeing your modifications to POD. I wrote Pod::PseudoPod, which parses and formats O'Reilly's variation, so I'm always interested in other variations. > I was able to prepare the drafts very rapidly using vim, podspell, and > other standard tools, without the time-intensive mousing around > (I'm touch typist) that Word requires. Aye. It just works. To me it's the nicest way possible to write a manuscript. Allison From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 13 18:00:10 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:00:10 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <7df8b8b43be0a6cd3af242f679891584@perl.org> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <36659bbab4c8230d114a543533413c99@perl.org> <20050612220317.GA4015@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <7df8b8b43be0a6cd3af242f679891584@perl.org> Message-ID: <20050614010010.GA11466@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Mon, Jun 13, 2005 at 05:04:16PM -0700, Allison Randal wrote: > On Jun 12, 2005, at 15:03, Tim Maher wrote: > > > >FYI, I wrote my manuscript in a version of POD, enhanced to be able to > >extract, execute, and capture output from the embedded program > >examples, > >and with hooks to import tables from troff's tbl command. 8-} > > I'd be interested in seeing your modifications to POD. I wrote > Pod::PseudoPod, which parses and formats O'Reilly's variation, so I'm > always interested in other variations. > > >I was able to prepare the drafts very rapidly using vim, podspell, and > >other standard tools, without the time-intensive mousing around > >(I'm touch typist) that Word requires. > > Aye. It just works. To me it's the nicest way possible to write a > manuscript. > > Allison The main program of the group, called "po2pod" (as in *.po -> *.pod -- it's a POD pre-processor), is another name linked to the executable that's known as "Magicpoint-EZ", because they're similar, I developed them simultaneously, and I ended up sharing a lot of code between them. This arrangement, of course, is sub- optimal for distribution, and may make it hard for you to make much sense out of the associated programs and modules. On the other hand, the programs work quite well, and have really made my life a lot simpler. I'll see if I can spend a few minutes to rework the code into a more digestible format, and send you something that might actually be worth looking at on your end 8-} In the meantime, you can take a gander at http://teachmeperl.com/magicpoint-ez.html to get an idea of how the "parent" program works, from which po2pod is excerpted. The main differences are that there's a much shorter chain of filters for po2pod than for mg2mgp (*.mg -> *.mgp): skipper -> include -> code_command -> add_newlines Or to put it Perlishly: elsif ($0 =~ /\bpo2pod$/) { # It's a pod preprocessor too! $REPORT and warn "Running $0\n"; no strict 'vars'; local $::nomgp=1; local $filename_line=0; use strict 'vars'; my @O = add_newlines (code_command(include(skipper( <>)))) ; print @O; exit; } You can read about the four functions named above in: http://teachmeperl.com/magicpoint-ez.html But ignore all comments about vertical spacing and color changes, because of course they're beyond the scope of PODly documents, and only apply to the mg2mgp invocations of these functions, not the po2pod ones. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From andrew at seattleperl.org Tue Jun 14 08:07:34 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: O'Reilly OSCON "Locals Only" UG Discount--Early Registration Ending Soon Message-ID: The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is returning to Portland, Oregon. Once again O'Reilly is offering a special discount to the local User Group members in Oregon and Washington. With this "locals only" discount, you get 20% off of OSCON registration. Anyone who registers by June 20 gets a double discount--20% off of the early registration price. After the June 20, you receive 20% off the regular conference pricing. Use code os05porug when you register online: To register, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Oregon Convention Center 777 N. E. Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Portland, Oregon 97212 August 1- 5, 2005 http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ They also need help getting the OSCON wiki up to speed. Now is your chance to share your projects, local hangouts & advice with other OSCON attendees. http://wiki.oreillynet.com/oscon/index.cgi -- Andrew B. Sweger | P.O. Box 33147 President | Seattle WA 98133 Seattle Perl Users Group | (206) 219-7119 andrew{at}seattleperl.org | http://seattleperl.org/ From jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org Tue Jun 14 15:57:23 2005 From: jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org (SPUG Jobs) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: JOB: Object-Oriented Perl/Windows Programmer Message-ID: Seeking Object-Oriented Perl/Windows Programmer. Company seeks a full-time, Perl programmer to develop and maintain enterprise level data acquisition applications in a Windows environment. The position will require taking full ownership of a complex and mission critical codebase. Must have 1-2 years of experience using Perl in a Windows-only environment. This is not a CGI web development position; a different team handles presentation of data. While strong Windows sysadmin skills are a plus, this is not a maintenance scripting position. The existing system is heavily object-oriented and candidates will be expected to work within the framework that has been constructed. We believe that Perl is 'real' programming language, not 'just' a scripting language, and we code accordingly. Perl Skills (required): DBI Object-oriented Perl Regular Expressions Perl Module Knowledge (good subset of): Archive::Zip HTTP::Daemon LWP MIME Net::POP3 Net::SMTP Net::Telnet PDF::API2 Text::MagicTemplate Win32::File Win32::Mutex Win32::OLE Win32::Process XML::Simple General Skills/Knowledge: HTML Internet protocols (general) PDF SQL (specifically SQL Server) Web robots Windows (specifically 2000) Also, if possible, experience with: Argus (www.ICENI.com) Doxygen (www.doxygen.org) WordPort (www.ACII.com) Job Details: permanent, no contracts no stock option incentive plans at this time candidate deals directly with employer W-2 only, with benefits located in Redmond, WA no telecommuting The company provides Internet subscription-based Case Law research access: http://www.versuslaw.com Contact: Fax/email resumes to 425.250.0157, jobs at versuslaw.com From itayf at u.washington.edu Tue Jun 14 23:18:30 2005 From: itayf at u.washington.edu (Itay Furman) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Tim Maher wrote: > And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, > standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the > publishing industry. > Do they actually use MS-word to _typeset_ the documents, or is it just a submission standard format? Is MS-word aware of things like ligatures and kerning? and hyphenation? These are the bread and butter of high quality typography; convenience macros for automating references, indexing, whatever, come next. >> I am announcing now that I refuse to deal with a publisher who >> not only uses MS-word but then complains that it takes too long and has to >> charge extra. > > The publisher is /not/ charging the readers extra because the > author has to submit the manuscript in MS-Word format. > Don't count on that. Since Word does not support automated high quality typography, and has lame macro facilities, someone _else_ has to do the job, and the customers will pay for this. Had you started with fonts and format similar to what the publisher uses, so the page count would not change significantly, I am sure there would have been an overhead due to the converstion to Word. ---------------------------------------------------------------- itayf at u.washington.edu / +1 (206) 543 9040 / Seattle, WA From andrew at seattleperl.org Wed Jun 15 08:23:41 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Using Amazon Web Services in Perl - 21 June 2005 Message-ID: June 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting ================================================= Title: Using Amazon Web Services in Perl Speaker: Jeff Barr Meeting Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med Building Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== Please join me Tuesday evening on 21 June 2005 at the regular monthly meeting of the Seattle Perl Users Group. Thanks go to Ali Rizvi for arranging the meeting location this month. We still need more Amazon.com Perl fans to join the group that can help make sure SPUG has a top-quality meeting location each month. I have a book or two to give away. Please RSVP as soon as you can. See below. See below for more information on... - Agenda - Speaker Background - Presentation Description - RSVP - Pre-meeting Dinner - Internet Access at Meeting (WiFi!) - PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange - Directions to Meeting - Directions from Meeting Agenda ====== 7:00 - Meeting begins Announcements PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange 7:15 - Presentation: Using Amazon Web Services in Perl 8:00 - Break, Book giveaways 8:10 - Presentation (cont.) & Questions 8:50 - Cleanup 9:00 - Adjourn Speaker Background ================== Jeff Barr --------- Jeff likes lots of questions. Presentation Description ======================== Come learn about using Amazon Web Services in Perl: - Introduction / My Background - What is Amazon? - Web Services Buzzwords - The Web Services Concept - What is Amazon Web Services - AWS Timeline - Why does Amazon offer AWS? - AWS Components - AWS Data Flow - REST vs. SOAP - Who Uses AWS? - ECS Data Types and Functions - ECS Demos - Alexa AWIS 1.0 - Amazon Simple Queue Service - AWS Zone - Using AWS with Perl - AWS Business Opportunities - Summary of our Offering - Getting Started with AWS RSVP ==== Please send email to rsvp-june-2005 at seattleperl.org if there's a 50% chance or better that you will show up at the meeting. We need this information to let building security know how many guest badges to prepare (they are dated for the event). Wow, email. Now that's hi-tech! Pre-meeting Dinner ================== No plans. Feel free to instantiate an instance via the mailing list. Internet Access at Meeting ========================== A link to the Internet will be provided at the meeting (provided you have suitable equipment). Tables, power strips, and Ethernet hubs will be available in limited quantity. 802.11g WiFi will be available. Please use the SSID: SPUG. The beacon will be broadcasting. No WEP/WPA. Please note that the provided network services are _not_ secure. As I'm sure most of you know, it is a trivial matter to "sniff" network traffic. Please use a secure application encryption protocol or other secure VPN solution to protect sensitive information. Use of the the provided network services is at your own risk. Be a good network citizen. The network services are provided gratis by our hosts. Access can be revoked at any time without prior notification. PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange ====================== If you want to exchange PGP/GnuPG signatures, please contact me directly with your public key (now!) and I'll bring fingerprint checklists for participants. Contact me if you want to know more. Oh, and you have to show up at the meeting to exchange ID's and all that, please. Otherwise this whole key exchange thing doesn't work. Directions to Meeting ===================== Our meeting will take place at the Amazon.com headquarters at 1200 12th Ave S, Seattle, Washington. Please let me know if you find errors or a better route. Thanks. I-5 (from North or South) ------------------------- On I-5, take the S Dearborn St exit and turn West on Dearborn (I-5 Southbound: turn right; I-5 Northbound: turn left) and proceed approximately one or two blocks. Turn right on 8th Ave S (the first light) and proceed North for three blocks. Turn right on S King St and proceed East for approximately five blocks. You will pass under I-5. Turn right on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. At this point, notice that you have been going in a circle. Skip to Pac-Med Building below. I-90 (from East) ---------------- On I-90, take the Rainier Ave S (hwy 900) exit Northbound and proceed approximately six blocks. Turn left on S King St and proceed West for approximately two blocks. Turn left on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. Pac-Med Building ---------------- Turn right at Charles St (the light after the bridge). The Amazon.com Pac-Med building is visible ahead and on the left as you make the turn and proceed South on Charles (Charles borders the West side of the building). The North parking lot entrance will be the second drive way on the left (the first has a Do Not Enter sign). The parking lot is on the left just past the parking attendant booth. The "carpool only" spaces should be okay to park in after 6:30. Walk to the South entrance of the tower. There is stair next to the parking garage structure that leads to a convenient path that goes around the building to the main entrance on the South side of the building. Enter building and go to the security desk. Sign in and wait to be escorted to the meeting room (just like when we met at Safeco in the U-district, more or less). Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1200%2012th%20ave%20s%2C%20seattle%2C%20wa&spn=0.017365%2C0.032945 Directions from Meeting ======================= Getting Back Onto I-5 Southbound -------------------------------- Although there is an I-5 northbound exit at S Dearborn St, there is no entrance back onto southbound I-5 at Dearborn. So don't bother trying to simply go back the same way you came. Exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the East side of building (this is Golf Dr S) and turn right. Bear left onto 15th Ave S (the right fork is 14th Ave S. Proceed approximately 1.5 miles. Turn right on S Spokane St and go down steep hill. Turn right at light and follow signs to I-5 southbound. If you exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the West side of the building, turn right on 12th Ave S and then right again on Golf Dr S (the light is the one at the South end of the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge). Continue as above. Technically, there's another way onto I-5 SB, but it involves some other crazy route that I'm not going to provide here. From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Jun 15 13:00:04 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:00:04 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: References: <20050530160510.GA12284@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <47606.24.113.101.31.1118542866.squirrel@24.113.101.31> <20050612152208.GA1047@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20050615200004.GA25233@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 11:18:30PM -0700, Itay Furman wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Tim Maher wrote: > > >And used what other "standard format" instead? Like it or not, > >standards are important, and MS-Word is the current standard for the > >publishing industry. > > > > Do they actually use MS-word to _typeset_ the documents, or is it > just a submission standard format? It's the latter, as I stated in a different message in this thread. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From glim at mycybernet.net Thu Jun 16 21:54:00 2005 From: glim at mycybernet.net (Gerard Lim) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:54 -0400 Subject: SPUG: Last-minute reminder -- YAPC::NA 2005 Message-ID: Here's a last reminder about Yet Another Perl Conference, North America (YAPC::NA 2005) http://yapc.org/America In case anyone out there has been sitting on the fence or has been meaning to register but has put it on the backburner until now, here is a final information package. Dates: Mon - Wed June 27 - 29, 2005 (11 days from now!) Location: 89 Chestnut Street, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Accommodations ============== Due to recent renegotiations with the conference facility and hotel, 89 Chestnut, there are still a few rooms left. For details on accommodations go to: http://www.yapc.org/America/accommodations-2005.shtml For quick and easy booking: 89 Chestnut Phone: +1-416-977-0707 Conference booking code: perl0626 The base rate is approx. CAD$80/night, which is *great* for downtown Toronto. Add in taxes and in-room high speed internet and it's up to about CAD$95/night. Book yourself to check-in on Sunday the 26th and check-out on the morning of Wednesday the 29th. Conference Registration ======================= Registration is easy and cheap - only USD$85 - see http://yapc.org/America/register-2005.shtml for details or register directly online at http://donate.perlfoundation.org/index.pl?node=registrant%20info&conference_id=423 The schedule is awesome - http://yapc.org/America/schedule-2005/day1.html >From here, click on the "Day 2" and "Day 3" spots near the top to go from page to page. Click on a talk name to get details regarding the talk. Speakers include Larry Wall, Allison Randal, Autrijus Tang, Brian Ingerson, Andy Lester, chromatic, brian d foy, Chip Salzenberg & Dan Sugalski... and many more! [ This message was sent by Gerard Lim on behalf of the YAPC::NA 2005 Conference organizing committee of the Toronto Perl Mongers. Thanks for your patience and support. ] From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 17 10:22:55 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:22:55 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202B3005C@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202B3005C@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050617172255.GA5437@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 09:08:29AM -0700, Uri London wrote: > > Bill Campbell mentioned a friend of him was 6 (six!!!) times > more productive than her colleagues just by using vi! Are you > claiming that given everything else is equal, vi would be 6 > times faster than ms-word? As a touch typist, it's a /lot/ faster for me to type I in vim (which is POD markup), than to type "italicized" in Word, then grab the mouse, highlight the word, and click the [I] button to italicize it. Multiply that effort differential by a gajillion times or so, for a book of 400+ pages, and you'll understand why I chose not to write my manuscript in Word. Also, I can use grep, sed, and Perl to massage the text, and do mass substitutions using regular expressions that are much more sophisticated than what Word's "find/replace" facility provides. > Second, many people complain about the "primitive" Microsoft macro. > This is weird claim given the richness of Office Automation. You can > basically control every aspect of Word from virtually any other > language. That's an apples retort to an oranges gripe. Macros are accessible even to the most Bozoid user (although IMHO they can't be trusted to function properly). Win32::OLE, on the other hand, is a big obstacle even to long-time programmers like me, because when I read the documentation all I hear about are wacky things like "apartment models", and I have no idea how to do what I want with it. For example, to italicize all the comments in my code samples, I need to search for a "#" in style3 that's either at the beginning of a line or at the start of a new word (but not in quotes), and convert all the characters from the # to the end of the line to italic. (Those comments were of course marked as italic when I imported them into Word from HTML, but the italicization gets lost somewhere along the way.) > I've never written Office automation before in my life, yet I > was able to open the online help, and in 5 minutes came up with quick (6 > lines) Perl scripts that demonstrate how Office can be automated using a > Perl script. I'd very much like to learn how to use this technology from Perl, if it can really help me. Is there a decent tutorial somewhere? > use Win32::OLE; > my $app = Win32::OLE->new('Word.Application'); > $app->{Visible} = 1; > $app->Documents->Add( ); > my $sel = $app->Selection; > $sel->TypeText( 'Hello Word' ); This example seems to just be assembling a Word doc. I need to know what facilities there are for /manipulating existing docs/. > And Office 2003 has excellent, extensively document, XML support. Give > it a try. > u. Really? I bought it on the understanding that Word docs would be /saved/ in XML, so that I could easily massage the raw data. But the storage format is still some inscrutable proprietary format, AFAIK. If XML is really in there somewhere, how do you get at it? -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From creede at penguinsinthenight.com Fri Jun 17 10:59:07 2005 From: creede at penguinsinthenight.com (Creede Lambard) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:59:07 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050617172255.GA5437@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202B3005C@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20050617172255.GA5437@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20050617175907.GR32363@boris.penguinsinthenight.com> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 10:22:55AM -0700, Tim Maher wrote: > As a touch typist, it's a /lot/ faster for me to type > I in vim (which is POD markup), than to type > "italicized" in Word, then grab the mouse, highlight the word, > and click the [I] button to italicize it. Multiply that effort > differential by a gajillion times or so, for a book of 400+ pages, > and you'll understand why I chose not to write my manuscript in Word. > Yes, but is it much faster than going into MS Word, typing some text, hitting control-I, typing the text you want to italicize, hitting control-I again to get out of "italics-mode," and then continuing on your way? I'm not disputing your claim that you're more productive in vim than you would be in Word, especially since you can tinker and massage vim (or emacs, or my personal favorite joe, or any other text editor) to make it work the way you want it to rather than the way someone else thinks it should. (And even more especially since I happen to agree with you.) My point is that many people don't realize that if you're a touch typist and you use a WYSIWYG program, using the touch-typist features of the program makes you much more productive. I used to be a professional word processor, making my living with WordPerfect, and I learned early on that the less my fingers left the home row, the more word processing I could get done, which would mean the more I got paid, which would mean the more I would get sent out on jobs. This is a powerful incentive to learn. But then again I came to word processing through Wordstar, PC-Write, Xywrite and WordPerfect 5.1, where a mouse was something that ran across your foot if you were typing too late at night, and I didn't have someone teaching me to use my computer who included the words, "Now move your mouse to . . . " in their lesson plan. -- Creede -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050617/79f9f48c/attachment.bin From bill at celestial.com Fri Jun 17 11:33:23 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:33:23 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202B3005C@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202B3005C@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050617183323.GB29958@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005, Uri London wrote: > >It is expected that a mailing list that is basically a Unix technology >(although Perl isn't technically Unix - it is still perceived as such), >wouldn't miss any opportunity to bash Microsoft. > >It shouldn't be surprise then that when such a list is located in >*Seattle* someone would reply. > >There were few assertions made in this thread that caught my eyes, and I >feel the urge to reply: > >Bill Campbell mentioned a friend of him was 6 (six!!!) times more >productive than her colleagues just by using vi! Are you claiming that >given everything else is equal, vi would be 6 times faster than ms-word? >Wow, that a serious claim beyond the regular Microsoft hatred. >I'm not a fast person myself, and I'm actually more of a vi person than >a Word person, yet I challenge anyone to do in 10 minutes with vi one >hour worth of work. I didn't make that observation myself, but cited Phil Hughes, publisher of Linux Journal, owner of SSC, and a person sometimes noted for hyperbole. I have had other professional writers, secretaries, and fast typists remark that using MS-Word is horribly inefficient. The office manager at the law firm where we installed our first mission-critical Linux system as a file/print server back in 1997 commented that her productivity dropped at least 50% when the firm required that they move from WordPerfect for DOS to MS-Windows. Professial grade typists and data entry people lose enormous amounts of time when they have to reach for a mouse or use other GUI ``features''. They also are very picky about keyboard layout. I was managing a Radio Shack Computer department at 19th and K Streets in Washington, D.C. when the IBM PC first came out. People would come in looking for systems to do word processing and spread sheets, and I would demonstrate Scripsit on the Radio Shack Model II which had a keyboard very similar to the IBM Selectric with a good numeric keypad with the arrow keys and ENTER by the keypad. Usually the firm's office manager/head secretary would be at the demonstration, and I would give a quick hands-on tutorial on Scripsit. Then I would send them around the corner to the IBM Product Center to try the new IBM PC. Invariably they would be back within the hour with the secretary screaming about the horrible keyboard on the PC. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Windows is a computer virus with a user interface!! From dleonard at dleonard.net Fri Jun 17 11:50:18 2005 From: dleonard at dleonard.net (dleonard@dleonard.net) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Minimal Perl web site & notification requests In-Reply-To: <20050617172255.GA5437@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tim Maher wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 09:08:29AM -0700, Uri London wrote: > > > > Bill Campbell mentioned a friend of him was 6 (six!!!) times > > more productive than her colleagues just by using vi! Are you > > claiming that given everything else is equal, vi would be 6 > > times faster than ms-word? > > As a touch typist, it's a /lot/ faster for me to type > I in vim (which is POD markup), than to type > "italicized" in Word, then grab the mouse, highlight the word, > and click the [I] button to italicize it. Multiply that effort > differential by a gajillion times or so, for a book of 400+ pages, > and you'll understand why I chose not to write my manuscript in Word. I'm a vi person myself but you are making Word seem worse than it is. There are ctrl based shortcut keys for pretty much any operation you can think of. Italics is turned off and on via ctrl+i. What makes vi speedier is not having to bother with ctrl and alt for most operations. -- From kahn at cpan.org Fri Jun 17 12:13:24 2005 From: kahn at cpan.org (Jeremy G. Kahn) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:13:24 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Please, enough about editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B320D4.6000204@cpan.org> We've gotten rather far of the putative topic of this thread (Tim's web site) and this list (Perl). Can we please keep it to Perl, and directly-related-to-Perl tangents? I'd be happy to hear about how various editors help me with POD -- or, even better: editing and debugging Perl, but carping (haha) about MS Word, or reopening the emacs/vi wars, is a recipe for a flurry of unsubscribes. Please. Perl. thanks, jeremy dleonard at dleonard.net wrote: >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tim Maher wrote: > > > >>On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 09:08:29AM -0700, Uri London wrote: >> >> >>>Bill Campbell mentioned a friend of him was 6 (six!!!) times >>>more productive than her colleagues just by using vi! Are you >>>claiming that given everything else is equal, vi would be 6 >>>times faster than ms-word? >>> >>> >>As a touch typist, it's a /lot/ faster for me to type >>I in vim (which is POD markup), than to type >>"italicized" in Word, then grab the mouse, highlight the word, >>and click the [I] button to italicize it. Multiply that effort >>differential by a gajillion times or so, for a book of 400+ pages, >>and you'll understand why I chose not to write my manuscript in Word. >> >> > > > >I'm a vi person myself but you are making Word seem worse than it is. There are ctrl based shortcut keys for pretty much any operation you can think of. Italics is turned off and on via ctrl+i. What makes vi speedier is not having to bother with ctrl and alt for most operations. > > > From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 17 17:13:03 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:13:03 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Win32::OLE help? Message-ID: <20050618001303.GA7727@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> (This is a retitled and edited re-posting of a previous message.) > Second, many people complain about the "primitive" Microsoft macro. > This is weird claim given the richness of Office Automation. You can > basically control every aspect of Word from virtually any other > language. That's an apples retort to an oranges gripe. Macros are accessible even to the most Bozoid user (although IMHO they can't be trusted to function properly). Win32::OLE, on the other hand, is a big obstacle even to long-time programmers like me, because when I read the documentation all I hear about are wacky things like "apartment models", and I have no idea how to do what I want with it. For example, to italicize all the comments in my code samples, I need to search for a "#" in style3 that's either at the beginning of a line or at the start of a new word (but not in quotes), and convert all the characters from the # to the end of the line to italic. (Those comments were of course marked as italic when I imported them into Word from HTML, but the italicization gets lost somewhere along the way.) > I've never written Office automation before in my life, yet I > was able to open the online help, and in 5 minutes came up with quick (6 > lines) Perl scripts that demonstrate how Office can be automated using a > Perl script. I'd very much like to learn how to use this technology from Perl, if it can really help me. Is there a decent tutorial somewhere? > use Win32::OLE; > my $app = Win32::OLE->new('Word.Application'); > $app->{Visible} = 1; > $app->Documents->Add( ); > my $sel = $app->Selection; > $sel->TypeText( 'Hello Word' ); This example seems to just be assembling a Word doc. I need to know what facilities there are for /manipulating existing docs/. > And Office 2003 has excellent, extensively document, XML support. > u. Really? I bought it on the understanding that Word docs would be /saved/ in XML, so that I could easily massage the raw data. But the storage format is still some inscrutable proprietary format, AFAIK. If XML is really in there somewhere, how do you get at it? -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Summer, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://manning.com/Maher for details, and email notification signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From andrew at sweger.net Fri Jun 17 18:51:01 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Please, enough about editors In-Reply-To: <42B320D4.6000204@cpan.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Jeremy G. Kahn wrote: > [sensitive subject] is a recipe for a flurry of unsubscribes. So far, no unsubscribe storm. The following isn't totally accurate (in fact, I'm sure it's a load of BS since I did it by hand). Think of it as just-for-fun. Date #Subd unsub(-) sub(+) eom(X) -------- ----- ------------------------------------------------------ Mar 2004: (384) --------------X+++++ Apr 2004: (375) --------X+++ May 2004: (370) -----X++++ Jun 2004: (369) -------X+++++++ Jul 2004: (369) --------X++++++++++++++ Aug 2004: (375) ----------X++++ Sep 2004: (369) ---X+++++++++++++ Oct 2004: (379) --------X+++++++ Nov 2004: (378) ----X++++ Dec 2004: (378) ----X++++++++++ Jan 2005: (384) --X+++++ Feb 2005: (387) ---X+++++++ Mar 2005: (391) ------X++++++++ Apr 2005: (393) --X+++++++++ May 2005: (400) ----------------X++++++++++ The surge of sub/unsubs last month were largely the result of subscribers at various AT&T domains swtiching over to Cingular, Comcast, etc. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From dora at namosi.com Fri Jun 17 19:10:56 2005 From: dora at namosi.com (Dora Choi) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Please, enough about editors In-Reply-To: <42B320D4.6000204@cpan.org> Message-ID: Maybe it's time to post about stick puzzles again. *Ducks* On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Jeremy G. Kahn wrote: > We've gotten rather far of the putative topic of this thread (Tim's web > site) and this list (Perl). > > Can we please keep it to Perl, and directly-related-to-Perl tangents? > > I'd be happy to hear about how various editors help me with POD -- or, > even better: editing and debugging Perl, but carping (haha) about MS > Word, or reopening the emacs/vi wars, is a recipe for a flurry of > unsubscribes. > > Please. Perl. > > thanks, > > jeremy > > dleonard at dleonard.net wrote: > > >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tim Maher wrote: > > > > > > > >>On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 09:08:29AM -0700, Uri London wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Bill Campbell mentioned a friend of him was 6 (six!!!) times > >>>more productive than her colleagues just by using vi! Are you > >>>claiming that given everything else is equal, vi would be 6 > >>>times faster than ms-word? > >>> > >>> > >>As a touch typist, it's a /lot/ faster for me to type > >>I in vim (which is POD markup), than to type > >>"italicized" in Word, then grab the mouse, highlight the word, > >>and click the [I] button to italicize it. Multiply that effort > >>differential by a gajillion times or so, for a book of 400+ pages, > >>and you'll understand why I chose not to write my manuscript in Word. > >> > >> > > > > > > > >I'm a vi person myself but you are making Word seem worse than it is. There are ctrl based shortcut keys for pretty much any operation you can think of. Italics is turned off and on via ctrl+i. What makes vi speedier is not having to bother with ctrl and alt for most operations. > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From Perl at Doorways.org Fri Jun 17 16:13:07 2005 From: Perl at Doorways.org (Marc M. Adkins) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:13:07 -0400 Subject: SPUG: Win32::OLE help? In-Reply-To: <20050618001303.GA7727@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <20050618001303.GA7727@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <42B35903.1060802@Doorways.org> > I'd very much like to learn how to use this technology from Perl, if > it can really help me. Is there a decent tutorial somewhere? I've personally gotten a lot of mileage out of Win32::OLE over the years. I've used it to disassemble Power Point documents, create Excel spreadsheets, convert Word documents to HTML in batch mode, open IE from an HTTP::Daemon server to point to the server itself, and scan Outlook messages sent by programs for specific error strings and then open the messages. And other stuff I don't remember right at the moment. But a good tutorial...that's a different matter. Seems like the Win32::OLE documentation refers to a TPJ article, but perhaps I saw that reference elsewhere. The main problem with generating a tutorial for this topic is that the first largish chunk of it ends up being an explanation of what COM/OLE is and how to get all of the data about the application you want to manipulate. The actual use of Win32::OLE is kind of anti-climactic. Once you know what properties to reference and what calls to make for a particular application the Win32::OLE package just works. Most of what I've figured out comes from (a) spending quality time writing COM code in VB and C++ some years back and (b) the OLE Browser that comes with ActiveState Perl. The former is just good background. It's helpful to have a clue what COM actually is, though I don't know that it is necessary. The latter is actually what I've used to figure out all of the Win32::OLE code that I've written (with occasional visits to Microsoft's web site to clarify particular calls). It's trial and error though, somewhat of a black art, takes a bit of time. There are these places where one just needs a magic cookie and they're not always obvious. The thing about the OLE Browser is that it shows what is actually available. COM interfaces are accessible so it just queries them. If it's available, you see it. Just without any useful documentation. mma From andrew at seattleperl.org Mon Jun 20 12:48:02 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting CANCELLED -- Using Amazon Web Services in Perl - 21 June 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Due to crossed communications, this month's meeting is CANCELLED. Sorry, folks. On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > June 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting > ================================================= > > Title: Using Amazon Web Services in Perl > Speaker: Jeff Barr > > Meeting Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 > Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) > Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med Building > > Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public > Info: http://seattleperl.org/ > > =========================================== From uril at exchange.microsoft.com Mon Jun 20 21:55:03 2005 From: uril at exchange.microsoft.com (Uri London) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:03 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Meeting CANCELLED -- Using Amazon Web Services in Perl - 21 June 2005 Message-ID: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202BAB170@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Are we going to have it next months? Alternatively, can we get the slides? p.s. The web site still has May 17 as the next spug meeting. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sweger Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:48 PM To: SPUG Members Subject: SPUG: Meeting CANCELLED -- Using Amazon Web Services in Perl - 21 June 2005 Due to crossed communications, this month's meeting is CANCELLED. Sorry, folks. On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > June 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting > ================================================= > > Title: Using Amazon Web Services in Perl > Speaker: Jeff Barr > > Meeting Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 > Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) > Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med Building > > Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public > Info: http://seattleperl.org/ > > =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From andrew at seattleperl.org Mon Jun 20 22:31:26 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting CANCELLED -- Using Amazon Web Services in Perl - 21 June 2005 In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202BAB170@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Uri London wrote: > Are we going to have it next months? Alternatively, can we get the > slides? Jeff will shoot for sometime later this year to give the presentation. I'm not sure just how technical it will be. > p.s. The web site still has May 17 as the next spug meeting. Ah, thanks. From uril at exchange.microsoft.com Tue Jun 28 15:00:38 2005 From: uril at exchange.microsoft.com (Uri London) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:00:38 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? Message-ID: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? For example: $path = `cd`; # 1. working, but I've been told not very efficient: $base = (split /\\/, $path)[-1]; # 2. this isn't working for me. Why??? $base = pop split /\\/, $path; # 3. This is similar to above, but does work. @tmp = split /\\/, $path; $base = pop @tmp; # 4. Work, but I believe slower: ($base) = $path =~ /.*\\([^\\])/; -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050628/e4823175/attachment.html From bill at celestial.com Tue Jun 28 15:14:39 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:14:39 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050628221439.GB78980@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: > > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? If I want the first and last items from a split, I would probably do it something like: my ($first, @rest) = split(...); my $last = pop(@rest); If working with file names, I'm more likely to use File::Basename and/or the tools in File::Path to do something that's not OS dependent. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``I have learned what some people are like. And if some people are like that, other people must have the means to shoot them.'' Donald Hamilton -- The Vanishers From cmeyer at helvella.org Tue Jun 28 15:20:24 2005 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:20:24 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? In-Reply-To: <20050628221439.GB78980@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20050628221439.GB78980@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <20050628222024.GJ3008@funpox.helvella.org> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:14:39PM -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: > > If working with file names, I'm more likely to use File::Basename and/or > the tools in File::Path to do something that's not OS dependent. Good suggestion. -Colin. From cmeyer at helvella.org Tue Jun 28 15:22:17 2005 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:22:17 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050628222217.GA16887@funpox.helvella.org> [I meant to send this reply to the list ...] On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:00:38PM -0700, Uri London wrote: > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > For example: > > $path = `cd`; > > > # 1. working, but I've been told not very efficient: > > $base = (split /\\/, $path)[-1]; > This is plenty efficient. To compare efficency, see the Benchmark module. > > # 2. this isn't working for me. Why??? > > $base = pop split /\\/, $path; pop only works on an array. An array variable stores a list, but a list isn't the same as an array. You could create an annonymous array reference, and dereference it, but it gets to look fairly ugly: $base = pop @{ [ split /\\/, $path ] }; > > # 3. This is similar to above, but does work. > > @tmp = split /\\/, $path; > > $base = pop @tmp; This works because your are storing the list in an array, which then works as expected with pop(). > > # 4. Work, but I believe slower: > > ($base) = $path =~ /.*\\([^\\])/; Try playing Benchmark. Then you can know instead of believing. You can believe me when I say that it's more satisfying to know. :) It really is well worth your time to do simple benchmarks. After using Perl heavily for more than 10 years, I am still sometimes surprised by benchmarking similar ways of doing things. Have fun, -Colin. From krahnj at telus.net Tue Jun 28 15:29:51 2005 From: krahnj at telus.net (John W. Krahn) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:29:51 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <42C1CF5F.5010608@telus.net> Uri London wrote: > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? my ( $first, $last ) = ( split )[ 0, -1 ]; > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > For example: > > $path = `cd`; You should use the Cwd module for that: use Cwd; my $path = getcwd; > # 1. working, but I've been told not very efficient: > $base = (split /\\/, $path)[-1]; Who told you that? Did you compare it to other methods with the Benchmark module? > # 2. this isn't working for me. Why??? > $base = pop split /\\/, $path; pop(), push(), shift(), unshift() and splice() require that the first argument is an array. They do not work with lists. perldoc -q "What is the difference between a list and an array" So if you convert that to an array: my $base = pop @{[ split /\\/, $path ]}; > # 3. This is similar to above, but does work. > @tmp = split /\\/, $path; > $base = pop @tmp; > > # 4. Work, but I believe slower: > ($base) = $path =~ /.*\\([^\\])/; If speed is your main goal then you should compare various methods using the Benchmark module. If compatibility and re-use is more important then have a look at the File::Spec module. perldoc File::Spec John -- use Perl; program fulfillment From jerry.gay at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 21:54:37 2005 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:37 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? In-Reply-To: <20050628221439.GB78980@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B583202C1FBE1@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20050628221439.GB78980@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <1d9a3f4005062821542d1d43aa@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: > > > > > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > If I want the first and last items from a split, I would probably do it > something like: > > my ($first, @rest) = split(...); > my $last = pop(@rest); > this might not work as one expects on a list of one, since @rest will be empty. ($last will contain undef after the pop.) it's unclear from the original poster's requirements what this edge case should return. ~jerry From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Wed Jun 29 10:37:35 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:35 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/lastitem after split? Message-ID: On 6/28/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: > > > > > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > If I want the first and last items from a split, I would probably do > it something like: > > my ($first, @rest) = split(...); > my $last = pop(@rest); > >> this might not work as one expects on a list of one, since @rest will be empty. ($last will contain undef >>after the pop.) it's unclear from the original poster's requirements what this edge case should return. True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Once the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. ($first,$last) = (split ...)[0,-1]; # $last undefined if list of 1 -- Charles DeRykus From bill at celestial.com Wed Jun 29 10:58:16 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:58:16 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/lastitem after split? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050629175816.GC22381@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: >On 6/28/05, Bill Campbell wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: ... >>> this might not work as one expects on a list of one, since @rest will be empty. ($last will contain undef >>>after the pop.) it's unclear from the original poster's requirements what this edge case should return. > >True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Once >the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. When I posted my example, it was meant as that, an example. Error checking and bounds conditions were left as an exercise for the student. It's a lot easier to read the example if it isn't hidden in the middle of exception handling code. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Windows is a computer virus with a user interface!! From rick.croote at philips.com Wed Jun 29 11:09:22 2005 From: rick.croote at philips.com (Rick Croote) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:09:22 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > On 6/28/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: > > > > > > > > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > > > > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > > > If I want the first and last items from a split, I would probably do > > it something like: > > > > my ($first, @rest) = split(...); > > my $last = pop(@rest); > > > > >> this might not work as one expects on a list of one, since @rest > will be empty. ($last will contain undef > >>after the pop.) it's unclear from the original poster's > requirements what this edge case should return. > > True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Once > the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. > > ($first,$last) = (split ...)[0,-1]; # $last undefined if list of 1 > > -- > Charles DeRykus Not true, the slice "[0,-1]" does not "drain", but just reuses the same element in the case of one element after the split. This then creates the appropriate 2 elements to initialize $first and $last. Of course, $string must be initialized to something other than what it would split on. I lost track of who posted this solution, you say J. Krahn, I say, very nice solution J. Krahn. You gotta love elegant one line solutions :) my $string = "one"; my ($first,$last) = (split /\s+/, $string)[0,-1]; print "$first\n"; print "$last\n"; -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050629/3f18f79d/attachment.html From bill at celestial.com Wed Jun 29 11:25:03 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:25:03 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050629182503.GA25747@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005, Rick Croote wrote: ... > Not true, the slice "[0,-1]" does not "drain", but just reuses the > same element in the case of one element after the split. This then > creates the appropriate 2 elements to initialize $first and $last. Of > course, $string must be initialized to something other than what it > would split on. I lost track of who posted this solution, you say J. > Krahn, I say, very nice solution J. Krahn. You gotta love elegant one > line solutions :) ``Elegant one-line solutions'' are fine -- if it's evident what it is you're doing. The problem is when one is looking at code that somebody else wrote to figure out what they're doing (and that includes my own code if I haven't looked at it recently :-). One of the problems with perl is that it has lots of magic, and it's not always evident what is being done unless the code is well commented. Even with good comments, it can be confusing. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``the purpose of government is to reign in the rights of the people'' -Bill Clinton during an interview on MTV in 1993 From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Wed Jun 29 11:41:25 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:41:25 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? Message-ID: > On 6/28/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005, Uri London wrote: > > > > > > > > > What is the idiomatic way to extract first/last item after split? > > > > > > More interestingly, why #2 doesn't work, while #3 does? > > > > If I want the first and last items from a split, I would probably do > > it something like: > > > > my ($first, @rest) = split(...); > > my $last = pop(@rest); > > > > >> this might not work as one expects on a list of one, since @rest > will be empty. ($last will contain undef > >>after the pop.) it's unclear from the original poster's > requirements what this edge case should return. > > True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Once > the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. > > ($first,$last) = (split ...)[0,-1]; # $last undefined if list of 1 > >> Not true, the slice "[0,-1]" does not "drain", but just reuses the same element >> in the case of one element after the split. This then creates the appropriate >> 2 elements to initialize $first and $last. Of course, $string must be initialized >> to something other than what it would split onmy $string = "one"; >> my ($first,$last) = (split /\s+/, $string)[0,-1]; >> print "$first\n"; >> print "$last\n"; True, but that's very much semantic overkill in my opinion. I'd have to argue that the result is certainly the same as a "drain" even ,if technically, split is orchestrating the effect. -- Charles DeRykus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050629/ab5d16b7/attachment.html From jay at scherrer.com Wed Jun 29 17:57:18 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:57:18 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Impromptu Linux Lunch Message-ID: <1120093038.5776.97.camel@gimly.SCHERCO.local> Group, I don't know if we still do impromptu Linux lunches, But I have a place, and they serve great lunches. The place is at the Seattle Senior Center 525 N 85th Seattle, Wa. . The cost of the lunch is only $3.00 please call ahead if your coming. But thats not all, We have been trying to set up a central file server using Samba on Fedora core 3. I am having a heck of a time figuring wins and winbind. If we could get some advice on my configurations it would be most appreciative. The Greenwood Senior Center is a designated public Internet access point and is complete with a computer lab set up for the public use (Thats us). The only problem is that they all run windows 95 - 2000's. If I don't get this server up they are thinking of installing WIN 2003. So if you can Help out and can stay for a good lunch I'll be there at about 9:30AM. Below is some ideas they have that need to be addressed. Greenwood Senior Center ? Computing - Director?s Task List 1. Get Computer Lab printer working so the lab users can use it. 2. Arrange more computer classes for the members. 3. Come up with plan for spending $2000. Technology budget this year. 4. Arrange for some one with computer skills to provide assistance in computer lab to members. 5. Upgrade website. 6. Come up with plan for new membership cards. 7. Acquire and setup two new office computers in the reception area. 8. Build an inventory database to inventory the center property. 9. Build a computing inventory (hardware, software). 10. Extend membership database to support reporting to city and county on usage and demographics. 11. Come up with a data collection method for center and program attendance such as bar codes or magnetic stripe. In addition, other computing tasks 1. Finish setting up Samba to allow central login, file sharing, and print serving. 2. Mount computers and net gear in rack. 3. Configure second Linux machine as backup. 4. Setup file backup and recovery system and procedures. 5. Document system and passwords. 6. Setup office windows machines to use common login and file sharing. Train users. From bill at celestial.com Wed Jun 29 18:22:18 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:22:18 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Impromptu Linux Lunch In-Reply-To: <1120093038.5776.97.camel@gimly.SCHERCO.local> References: <1120093038.5776.97.camel@gimly.SCHERCO.local> Message-ID: <20050630012218.GA66437@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005, Jay Scherrer wrote: >Group, >I don't know if we still do impromptu Linux lunches, But I have a place, >and they serve great lunches. >The place is at the Seattle Senior Center >525 N 85th Seattle, Wa. . The cost of >the lunch is only $3.00 please call ahead if your coming. But thats not >all, We have been trying to set up a central file server using Samba on >Fedora core 3. I am having a heck of a time figuring wins and winbind. >If we could get some advice on my configurations it would be most >appreciative... I *STRONGLY* recommend getting copies of John Terpstra's Samba How-To and Samba by Example books (I think PDFs are available for download from samba.org). John has excellent, real-world, examples that address all aspects of Samba configuration, integration with Win2k/XP domains, etc. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. -- Will Rogers From jay at scherrer.com Wed Jun 29 18:43:50 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:43:50 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Impromptu Linux Lunch In-Reply-To: <20050630012218.GA66437@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <1120093038.5776.97.camel@gimly.SCHERCO.local> <20050630012218.GA66437@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <1120095830.5776.112.camel@gimly.SCHERCO.local> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 18:22 -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2005, Jay Scherrer wrote: > >Group, > >I don't know if we still do impromptu Linux lunches, But I have a place, > >and they serve great lunches. > >The place is at the Seattle Senior Center > >525 N 85th Seattle, Wa. . The cost of > >the lunch is only $3.00 please call ahead if your coming. But thats not > >all, We have been trying to set up a central file server using Samba on > >Fedora core 3. I am having a heck of a time figuring wins and winbind. > >If we could get some advice on my configurations it would be most > >appreciative... > > I *STRONGLY* recommend getting copies of John Terpstra's Samba How-To and > Samba by Example books (I think PDFs are available for download from > samba.org). John has excellent, real-world, examples that address all > aspects of Samba configuration, integration with Win2k/XP domains, etc. > > Bill > -- Thanks, I have modeled the setup after Samba by Example "Secure setup" from . But for some reason I am having trouble with the winbindb or the passdb sections authenticating the windows machines. But I did find a good perl script that helped me with DNS "dnswalk". uses Net::DNS. Are you up for lunch? Jay Scherrer From bri at ifokr.org Wed Jun 29 23:33:57 2005 From: bri at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:33:57 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extract first/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: <20050629182503.GA25747@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <20050629182503.GA25747@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <20050630063357.GH20738@ifokr.org> > One of the problems with perl is that it has lots of magic, and > it's not always evident what is being done unless the code is > well commented. Even with good comments, it can be confusing. If it's still confusing, then it's not a good comment now is it? -- Brian Hatch "We're always one bridge Systems and away from destruction." Security Engineer --Christian http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050630/60828071/attachment.bin From sthoenna at efn.org Thu Jun 30 01:09:06 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:09:06 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050630080906.GC2796@efn.org> (somewhat reformatted for better readability and attribution) On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 11:41:25AM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: > Rick Croote wrote: > > DeRykus, Charles E wrote: > > > True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Once > > > the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. > > > > > > ($first,$last) = (split ...)[0,-1]; # $last undefined if list of 1 > > > > Not true, the slice "[0,-1]" does not "drain", but just reuses > > the same element in the case of one element after the split. > > This then creates the appropriate 2 elements to initialize > > $first and $last. Of course, $string must be initialized to > > something other than what it would split on. > > my $string = "one"; > > my ($first,$last) = (split /\s+/, $string)[0,-1]; > > print "$first\n"; > > print "$last\n"; > > True, but that's very much semantic overkill in my opinion. I'd > have to argue that the result is certainly the same as a "drain" > even ,if technically, split is orchestrating the effect. Can you expand on that? Using a list slice on [0,-1] is an idiom to get the first and last elements; sometimes it looks like this: my ($min, $max) = (sort { $a <=> $b } @values)[0, -1]; While there is an argument for writing completely or almost completely idiom free perl, I don't see how using an idiom like this could be described as "semantic overkill". And split's role is just creating the list; I don't understand what you mean by orchestrating. It sounds to me like you have an interesting point to make, but I'm completely failing to understand you; I'd appreciate it if you could make another attempt. From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Thu Jun 30 09:28:06 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:28:06 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 11:41:25AM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: Rick: Rick Croote wrote: Rick: DeRykus, Charles E wrote: Charles:True and the same thing applies to J. Krahn's elegant solution. Charles: Once Charles:the output's drained, the rest of the list will be undefined. Charles: ($first,$last) = (split ...)[0,-1]; # $last undefined if list of 1 Rick: Not true, the slice "[0,-1]" does not "drain", but just reuses the Rick: same element in the case of one element after the split. This then Rick: creates the appropriate 2 elements to initialize $first and $last. Rick: Of course, $string must be initialized to something other than what Rick: it would split on. Rick: my $string = "one"; Rick: my ($first,$last) = (split /\s+/, $string)[0,-1]; Rick: print "$first\n"; Rick: print "$last\n"; Charles: True, but that's very much semantic overkill in my opinion. I'd have Charles: to argue that the result is certainly the same as a "drain" even ,if Charles: technically, split is orchestrating the effect. Yitzchak:Can you expand on that? Using a list slice on [0,-1] is an idiom to get the first and last elements; Yitzchak: sometimes it looks like this: Yitzchak: my ($min, $max) = (sort { $a <=> $b } @values)[0, -1]; Yitzchak: While there is an argument for writing completely or almost completely idiom free perl, Yitzchak: I don't see how using an idiom like this could be described as "semantic overkill". A Yitzchak: and split's role is just creating the list; I don't understand what you mean by orchestrating. Ok, I characterized this as a "drain" because, superficially at least, you're filling a bigger bucket with a smaller one. The split output consists of a single item but the Action of the function split populates $first with that single item; and then backfills $last with an undef. Here's what I assume Rick was referring to in claiming that no "drain" occurred: perdoc -f split: When assigning to a list, if LIMIT is omitted, Perl supplies a LIMIT one larger than the number of variables in the list, to avoid unnecessary work. perl -MO=Deparse -e '($first,$last) = split(" ","foo");' ($first, $last) = split(" ", 'foo', 3); The split really generates only 1 element; behind the scenes, split orchestrates output so $first gets populated with that 1 element and then $last gets backfilled with an 'undef' because the original list is exhausted. Maybe that seat-of-the-pants explanation is flawed somehow... I assume Rick felt that because split generates values for both $first and $last this shouldn't be thought of as a "drain". To me, it just seems natural to call it a "drain" because there's really a 1 item output and that's trying to fill 2 slots. -- Charles DeRykus From sthoenna at efn.org Thu Jun 30 10:49:41 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:49:41 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050630174941.GC3104@efn.org> On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 09:28:06AM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: > Ok, I characterized this as a "drain" because, superficially at > least, you're filling a bigger bucket with a smaller one. The split > output consists of a single item but the Action of the function > split populates $first with that single item; and then backfills > $last with an undef. Here's what I assume Rick was referring to in > claiming that no "drain" occurred: > > perdoc -f split: > > When assigning to a list, if LIMIT is omitted, Perl supplies a LIMIT > one larger than the number of variables in the list, to avoid > unnecessary work. > > > perl -MO=Deparse -e '($first,$last) = split(" ","foo");' > ($first, $last) = split(" ", 'foo', 3); > > > The split really generates only 1 element; behind the scenes, split > orchestrates output so $first gets populated with that 1 element and > then $last gets backfilled with an 'undef' because the original list > is exhausted. Maybe that seat-of-the-pants explanation is flawed > somehow... > > I assume Rick felt that because split generates values for both > $first and $last this shouldn't be thought of as a "drain". To me, > it just seems natural to call it a "drain" because there's really a > 1 item output and that's trying to fill 2 slots. But the case under consideration isn't ($first, $last) = split ...;, it's ($first, $last) = ( split ... )[0, -1]; which indeed never leaves $last undefined. If only one element is produced by split, both $first and $last get assigned that value. From cmeyer at helvella.org Thu Jun 30 10:52:51 2005 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:52:51 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: <20050630174941.GC3104@efn.org> References: <20050630174941.GC3104@efn.org> Message-ID: <20050630175251.GO5652@funpox.helvella.org> On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 10:49:41AM -0700, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: > > But the case under consideration isn't ($first, $last) = split ...;, > it's ($first, $last) = ( split ... )[0, -1]; which indeed never leaves > $last undefined. If only one element is produced by split, both > $first and $last get assigned that value. $last (and $first) will be undefined if split returns an empty list. :) -Colin. From rick.croote at philips.com Thu Jun 30 11:09:52 2005 From: rick.croote at philips.com (Rick Croote) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:09:52 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way toextractfirst/lastitemafter split? In-Reply-To: <20050630174941.GC3104@efn.org> Message-ID: We are having way too much fun with this. Good comment on commenting Brian! Yitzchak has appropriately responded for me. But I think the term "drain", that I did not use first, but, none the less has now been twisted. The first use of the word "drain" in the context of this discussion came from the shift/pop solution, where the array was prematurely "drain"ed from the shift, leaving nothing to pop, causing $last to be undefined. So the term drain was someone else used to describe the emptying of an array through the use of shift and pop. I pointed out that the slice solution does not drain anything because it merely accesses two elements, nondestructively to the array, which in this case was anonymous and lost anyway. The split, as others have pointed out, had nothing to do with it, as it only created the array from a string, and was not being used directly to populate $first and $last. --- Rick Croote Software Engineer Environment and Tools Team Philips Medical Systems Bothell, WA Rick.Croote at Philips.com Phone: 425-487-7834 Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes Sent by: spug-list-bounces at pm.org 2005-06-30 10:49 AM To "DeRykus, Charles E" cc spug-list at mail.pm.org Subject Re: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way toextractfirst/lastitemafter split? Classification On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 09:28:06AM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: > Ok, I characterized this as a "drain" because, superficially at > least, you're filling a bigger bucket with a smaller one. The split > output consists of a single item but the Action of the function > split populates $first with that single item; and then backfills > $last with an undef. Here's what I assume Rick was referring to in > claiming that no "drain" occurred: > > perdoc -f split: > > When assigning to a list, if LIMIT is omitted, Perl supplies a LIMIT > one larger than the number of variables in the list, to avoid > unnecessary work. > > > perl -MO=Deparse -e '($first,$last) = split(" ","foo");' > ($first, $last) = split(" ", 'foo', 3); > > > The split really generates only 1 element; behind the scenes, split > orchestrates output so $first gets populated with that 1 element and > then $last gets backfilled with an 'undef' because the original list > is exhausted. Maybe that seat-of-the-pants explanation is flawed > somehow... > > I assume Rick felt that because split generates values for both > $first and $last this shouldn't be thought of as a "drain". To me, > it just seems natural to call it a "drain" because there's really a > 1 item output and that's trying to fill 2 slots. But the case under consideration isn't ($first, $last) = split ...;, it's ($first, $last) = ( split ... )[0, -1]; which indeed never leaves $last undefined. If only one element is produced by split, both $first and $last get assigned that value. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050630/7cd79e1e/attachment.html From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Thu Jun 30 12:54:04 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:54:04 -0700 Subject: SPUG: spug: What is the idiomatic way to extractfirst/lastitemafter split? Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 09:28:06AM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: >> Ok, I characterized this as a "drain" because, superficially at least, >> you're filling a bigger bucket with a smaller one. The split output >> consists of a single item but the Action of the function split >> populates $first with that single item; and then backfills $last with >> an undef. Here's what I assume Rick was referring to in claiming that >> no "drain" occurred: >> >> perdoc -f split: >> >> When assigning to a list, if LIMIT is omitted, Perl supplies a LIMIT >> one larger than the number of variables in the list, to avoid >> unnecessary work. >> >> >> perl -MO=Deparse -e '($first,$last) = split(" ","foo");' >> ($first, $last) = split(" ", 'foo', 3); >> >> >> The split really generates only 1 element; behind the scenes, split >> orchestrates output so $first gets populated with that 1 element and >> then $last gets backfilled with an 'undef' because the original list >> is exhausted. Maybe that seat-of-the-pants explanation is flawed >> somehow... >> >> I assume Rick felt that because split generates values for both $first >> and $last this shouldn't be thought of as a "drain". To me, it just >> seems natural to call it a "drain" because there's really a >> 1 item output and that's trying to fill 2 slots. >But the case under consideration isn't ($first, $last) = split >...;, it's ($first, $last) = ( split ... )[0, -1]; which indeed >never leaves $last undefined. If only one element is produced by > > split, both $first and $last get assigned that value. Oops, right. I lost consciousness somwhere during the thread. -- Charles DeRykus From james at banshee.com Thu Jun 30 19:48:15 2005 From: james at banshee.com (James Moore) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:48:15 -0700 Subject: SPUG: system() eating STDIN, how to avoid? Message-ID: <200507010247.j612l1qg023931@server2.banshee.com> I've got some code that reads from STDIN. Occasionally this code needs to call system() to generate an audio file. Something in the system() call seems to be eating from standard input, though. If I stop in the debugger right before the system() call, and do an: x I see all the remaining input that I expect. And at this point I understand that that input has been eaten, so I restart. If I step through the system() call, then do the same x I see DB<89> x empty array DB<90> I've tried things like replacing the command I intend to run inside system() with system('ls') and get the same results, which surprised me. I tried it with system('ls < /dev/null > /dev/null') and also got the same results (nothing left in STDIN after system(). What am I missing here? What's the right way to protect STDIN? Note that I don't want the thing run in the system() call to have access to this input. - James