From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Sun Jun 1 01:07:53 2003 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Perl unit testing FOLLOWUP In-Reply-To: <200305221421.16350.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> References: <200305221421.16350.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <200305312307.54386.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 22 May 2003 14:21, Jonathan Gardner wrote: > Are there any great modules anyone could recommend to do unit testing in > perl? I am now knee deep in perl testing, which is about as far as any developer wants to get into testing. I found Test::Simple, Test::More, combine with Test::Builder to be the most effective tools. I have written several tests, and more importantly, I have built testing into my development plan from here on out. I have also partially mastered writing Makefiles to run all the tests. (If anyone wants to see a sample, let me know!) - -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net (was jgardn@alumni.washington.edu) Live Free, Use Linux! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+2Zg5WgwF3QvpWNwRAnZRAJ4p33RaiW7EqSEl4QjOV5N1l7FHCACfQpcP EkZouKGBfqFNyrGwf4kNW0s= =FKuM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sun Jun 1 02:54:51 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Perl unit testing FOLLOWUP In-Reply-To: <200305312307.54386.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> (Jonathan Gardner's message of "Sat, 31 May 2003 23:07:53 -0700") References: <200305221421.16350.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <200305312307.54386.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: Jonathan Gardner writes: [...] > I have also partially mastered writing Makefiles to run all the > tests. (If anyone wants to see a sample, let me know!) Yes, please. How did you make the Makefies by hand Makefile.PL containing a "use ExtUtils::MakeMaker;" Makefile.PL containing a "use CPAN::MakeMaker;" Seems to me that Schwern was trying to eliminate ExtUtils::MakeMaker, but I'm not sure if I remember that his preference was CPAN::MakeMaker or something else. Anyone remember? -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sun Jun 1 03:16:33 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:running personal perl script through ActiveState perl from cygwin Message-ID: I guess I'm sitting in the stupid gas, I can't see my way out from here. I just want to run a perl script on ActiveState perl while in a cygwin bash. If it's a shebang line, I've missed the right one. I've failed by trying these: #! perl -w #! /usr/bin/perl -w #! /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl -w #! C:/Perl/bin/perl -w #! and no shebang line. I think it's a problem with the difference between how NT sees the file system and how cygwin sees the filesystem. I'm betting that cygwin finds the script in the Unix-like filesystem, but perl.exe sees the filesystem as NT-like. Just a guess, but if that guess is correct, is there a shebang line that can bridge them, or do I need some other kinda' magic? bash-2.05b$ mount C:\cygwin\usr\X11R6\lib\X11\fonts on /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts type system (binmode) C:\cygwin\bin on /usr/bin type system (binmode) C:\cygwin\lib on /usr/lib type system (binmode) C:\cygwin on / type system (binmode) c: on /cygdrive/c type user (binmode,noumount) m: on /cygdrive/m type user (binmode,noumount) r: on /cygdrive/r type user (binmode,noumount) bash-2.05b$ echo $PATH /home/toshiba/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/cygdrive/c/emacs-21.2/bin:/cygdrive/c/Perl/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/system32:/cygdrive/c/WINNT:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/System32/Wbem bash-2.05b$ pwd /home/toshiba/bin bash-2.05b$ ls mrw_ping.pl mrw_ping.pl bash-2.05b$ which mrw_ping.pl /home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl bash-2.05b$ which perl /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl bash-2.05b$ ls -l $(which perl) -rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ SYSTEM 20480 Dec 1 23:16 /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl bash-2.05b$ mrw_ping.pl Can't open perl script "/home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl": No such file or directory bash-2.05b$ Whadda' ya mean, "No such file"? Who "Can't open perl script..."? cygwin perl.exe NT she-bang loader -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sun Jun 1 04:16:42 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Confused field parser seeks... In-Reply-To: <20030525065624.19120.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> (Aaron Paul's message of "Sat, 24 May 2003 23:56:24 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20030525065624.19120.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Aaron Paul writes: > Thanks that worked great. Here's my get_newuid: > > sub get_newuid{ > my @lines; > my $lastline; > my $olduid; > my ($f1, $f2, $f3, $f4, $f5, $f6, $f7); > open (PASS, $draft); > > @lines = ; > close(PASS); > $lastline = pop(@lines); > ($f1,$f2,$f3,$f4,$f5,$f6,$f7)=split /:/, $lastline; > > $newuid = ++$f3; > > return $newuid; > } > > --- Brian Hatch wrote: >> >> >> > my $var="nobody:x:99:99:Nobody:/:/sbin/nologin"; >> > >> > $var=~ /(.+):(.+):(.+):(.+):(.+):(.+):(.+)/; >> >> Any reason you don't just want to use >> >> ($username,$uid,$gid.....) = split /:/, $var; But be sure to use the third argument to split if you are capturing it into an array, and there's a possibility of trailing empty fields. $six = "one:two:three:four:five:six" $five = "one:two:three:four:five:" @six = split /:/, $six; @five = split /:/, $five; # Caution, trailing "empty" field ignored. @six = split /:/, $five, -1; # -1 cures this The technique presented by previous posters gets around this by assigning the sixth captured field, or an undef for an uncaptured field) to the $shell variable. But watch out if you capture it in an array and expect that array to have a constant element count. The way I look at it is simply the difference between data and words. Use the -1 argument (to signify unlimited) for data, leave it out for words. @words = split /\s+/, $line; @data = split /:/, $line, -1; You want to throw away trailing delimiters when you're looking for natural language words, but not when you're looking for (possibly empty) delited data. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Sun Jun 1 11:25:45 2003 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Perl unit testing FOLLOWUP In-Reply-To: References: <200305221421.16350.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <200305312307.54386.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <200306010925.48326.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 01 June 2003 00:54, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Jonathan Gardner writes: > > [...] > > > I have also partially mastered writing Makefiles to run all the > > tests. (If anyone wants to see a sample, let me know!) > > Yes, please. > > How did you make the Makefies By hand. In my case, all I needed was the one rule for "make test". I didn't need any of the other steps. I actually copied what the output of Make::Maker would've been for make test. - -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net (was jgardn@alumni.washington.edu) Live Free, Use Linux! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+2ikJWgwF3QvpWNwRAsgOAJ9Htq1NCxOzJdq6117O6SMc5JkX6ACeKL6a SpRFuWBB3p3kDsa6/4btIaw= =MU4G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From creede at penguinsinthenight.com Sun Jun 1 12:06:42 2003 From: creede at penguinsinthenight.com (Creede Lambard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:running personal perl script through ActiveState perl from cygwin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1054487202.14654.39.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> Have you tried running which perl in bash to see whether bash knows about perl and where it thinks the interpreter might be? I was thinking that the shebang line is a Unix artifact that has no meaning in NT Perl -- at least I've been able to lead off Perl scripts with "#!/usr/bin/perl -w" on NT as long as I can remember with no ill effects -- but that's running them from the NT command line, not bash, and I have no idea what the differences between NT bash and Unix bash are. It's been a long time since I've used cygwin. On Sun, 2003-06-01 at 01:16, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > I guess I'm sitting in the stupid gas, I can't see my way out from > here. I just want to run a perl script on ActiveState perl while in a > cygwin bash. > > If it's a shebang line, I've missed the right one. I've failed by > trying these: > #! perl -w > #! /usr/bin/perl -w > #! /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl -w > #! C:/Perl/bin/perl -w > #! > and > no shebang line. > > I think it's a problem with the difference between how NT sees the > file system and how cygwin sees the filesystem. I'm betting that > cygwin finds the script in the Unix-like filesystem, but perl.exe sees > the filesystem as NT-like. Just a guess, but if that guess is correct, > is there a shebang line that can bridge them, or do I need some other > kinda' magic? > > > bash-2.05b$ mount > C:\cygwin\usr\X11R6\lib\X11\fonts on /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts type system (binmode) > C:\cygwin\bin on /usr/bin type system (binmode) > C:\cygwin\lib on /usr/lib type system (binmode) > C:\cygwin on / type system (binmode) > c: on /cygdrive/c type user (binmode,noumount) > m: on /cygdrive/m type user (binmode,noumount) > r: on /cygdrive/r type user (binmode,noumount) > bash-2.05b$ echo $PATH > /home/toshiba/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/cygdrive/c/emacs-21.2/bin:/cygdrive/c/Perl/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/system32:/cygdrive/c/WINNT:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/System32/Wbem > bash-2.05b$ pwd > /home/toshiba/bin > bash-2.05b$ ls mrw_ping.pl > mrw_ping.pl > bash-2.05b$ which mrw_ping.pl > /home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl > bash-2.05b$ which perl > /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl > bash-2.05b$ ls -l $(which perl) > -rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ SYSTEM 20480 Dec 1 23:16 /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl > bash-2.05b$ mrw_ping.pl > Can't open perl script "/home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl": No such file or directory > bash-2.05b$ > > > > > Whadda' ya mean, "No such file"? > > Who "Can't open perl script..."? > cygwin > perl.exe > NT > she-bang loader > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030601/801bb6ff/attachment.bin From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sun Jun 1 19:05:44 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:running personal perl script through ActiveState perl from cygwin In-Reply-To: <1054487202.14654.39.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> (Creede Lambard's message of "01 Jun 2003 10:06:42 -0700") References: <1054487202.14654.39.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> Message-ID: Creede Lambard writes: > Have you tried running > > which perl > > in bash to see whether bash knows about perl and where it thinks the > interpreter might be? Yes, it was part of the ouptut that I posted. bash-2.05b$ which perl /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl > I was thinking that the shebang line is a Unix artifact that has no > meaning in NT Perl -- at least I've been able to lead off Perl scripts > with "#!/usr/bin/perl -w" on NT as long as I can remember with no ill > effects -- but that's running them from the NT command line, not bash, > and I have no idea what the differences between NT bash and Unix bash > are. It's been a long time since I've used cygwin. I think that the WinDOS loader looks at the first line and behaves like this: # Look for a she-bang, ignore up to (but require) "perl", then capture # the flags in $1. if ( $first_line =~ m[^#!.*perl (.*) ] ) { $flags = $1; # probably Unix-ish (not DOS-ish) filename $filename = @ARGV[something_or_other]; # And here's the rub. It comes in Unix-ish from Cygwin, but needs # to be DOS-ish for ActiveState perl. system "perl.exe", $flags, $filename; } > > On Sun, 2003-06-01 at 01:16, Michael R. Wolf wrote: >> I guess I'm sitting in the stupid gas, I can't see my way out from >> here. I just want to run a perl script on ActiveState perl while in a >> cygwin bash. >> >> If it's a shebang line, I've missed the right one. I've failed by >> trying these: >> #! perl -w >> #! /usr/bin/perl -w >> #! /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl -w >> #! C:/Perl/bin/perl -w >> #! >> and >> no shebang line. >> >> I think it's a problem with the difference between how NT sees the >> file system and how cygwin sees the filesystem. I'm betting that >> cygwin finds the script in the Unix-like filesystem, but perl.exe sees >> the filesystem as NT-like. Just a guess, but if that guess is correct, >> is there a shebang line that can bridge them, or do I need some other >> kinda' magic? >> >> >> bash-2.05b$ mount >> C:\cygwin\usr\X11R6\lib\X11\fonts on /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts type system (binmode) >> C:\cygwin\bin on /usr/bin type system (binmode) >> C:\cygwin\lib on /usr/lib type system (binmode) >> C:\cygwin on / type system (binmode) >> c: on /cygdrive/c type user (binmode,noumount) >> m: on /cygdrive/m type user (binmode,noumount) >> r: on /cygdrive/r type user (binmode,noumount) >> bash-2.05b$ echo $PATH >> /home/toshiba/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/cygdrive/c/emacs-21.2/bin:/cygdrive/c/Perl/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/system32:/cygdrive/c/WINNT:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/System32/Wbem >> bash-2.05b$ pwd >> /home/toshiba/bin >> bash-2.05b$ ls mrw_ping.pl >> mrw_ping.pl >> bash-2.05b$ which mrw_ping.pl >> /home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl >> bash-2.05b$ which perl >> /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl >> bash-2.05b$ ls -l $(which perl) >> -rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ SYSTEM 20480 Dec 1 23:16 /cygdrive/c/Perl/bin/perl >> bash-2.05b$ mrw_ping.pl >> Can't open perl script "/home/toshiba/bin/mrw_ping.pl": No such file or directory >> bash-2.05b$ >> >> >> >> >> Whadda' ya mean, "No such file"? >> >> Who "Can't open perl script..."? >> cygwin >> perl.exe >> NT >> she-bang loader >> -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sun Jun 1 21:00:57 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:s/ActiveState Perl/Cygwin Perl/ works for shebang lines In-Reply-To: (Michael R. Wolf's message of "Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:16:33 -0700") References: Message-ID: Michael R. Wolf writes: > I guess I'm sitting in the stupid gas, I can't see my way out from > here. I just want to run a perl script on ActiveState perl while in a > cygwin bash. I guess I got smart (or lucky). I installed Cygwin Perl. The following she-bang line now works from bash, from inside emacs, and especially inside the perldb within emacs. #! /usr/bin/perl -w The world is good, let the debugging begin!!! Michael Wolf bash-2.05b$ which perl /usr/bin/perl bash-2.05b$ echo $PATH /home/toshiba/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/cygdrive/c/emacs-21.2/bin:/cygdrive/c/Perl/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/system32:/cygdrive/c/WINNT:/cygdrive/c/WINNT/System32/Wbem bash-2.05b$ perl -v This is perl, v5.8.0 built for cygwin-multi-64int Copyright 1987-2002, Larry Wall Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on this system using `man perl' or `perldoc perl'. If you have access to the Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.com/, the Perl Home Page. bash-2.05b$ -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From tnight at pobox.com Mon Jun 2 11:51:31 2003 From: tnight at pobox.com (Terry Nightingale) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Re: SPUG:s/ActiveState Perl/Cygwin Perl/ works for shebang lines] Message-ID: <3EDB8093.9080006@pobox.com> Forgot to Cc: the list... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: SPUG:s/ActiveState Perl/Cygwin Perl/ works for shebang lines Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:50:42 -0700 From: Terry Nightingale To: Michael R. Wolf References: Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Michael R. Wolf writes: > > >>I guess I'm sitting in the stupid gas, I can't see my way out from >>here. I just want to run a perl script on ActiveState perl while in a >>cygwin bash. > > > I guess I got smart (or lucky). I installed Cygwin Perl. The following > she-bang line now works from bash, from inside emacs, and especially > inside the perldb within emacs. > > #! /usr/bin/perl -w > > > The world is good, let the debugging begin!!! That works, with one caveat: the Perl at /usr/bin/perl is *not* your ActiveState Perl, but the Perl built against Cygwin. If you truly want to invoke ActiveState Perl, use a she-bang like like this: #!/cygdrive/x/Perl/bin/perl Substitute 'x/Perl' with the drive and folder where you've installed ActivePerl. If you want access to complex modules like the DBI and friends, I've found it's easier to use ActiveState's package manager tool to download and install pre-built modules, rather than try to figure out how to build them under Cygwin. Cheers! -- Terry Nightingale Web Developer, Philosopher, Geek "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." -- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut -- Terry Nightingale Web Developer, Philosopher, Geek "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." -- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3411 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030602/7ff4c843/smime.bin From jay at scherrer.com Mon Jun 2 13:00:24 2003 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Some Perl tuts Message-ID: <200306021100.24739.jay@scherrer.com> Great Tutorial links on the web: While sMurfing for tutorials, I ran into an old friend of mine. Here is a link to some essential Perl tuts provided by O'rielly at perl.com. -- From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 2 17:53:41 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Free Open-Source Promo by LJ Message-ID: <20030602155341.B5783@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, especially Fred ("The Thingy Guy") Morris, Check out the "Product announcement service" below. -Tim ======================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim(AT)timmaher.org | | JAWCAR ("Just Another White-Camel Award Recipient") | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug(AT)seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.org | ======================================================= Hi from your friends at Linux Journal, Today we launched a sister-web site, Worldwatch, an online publication that explores how Linux and Open Source software are specifically influencing social, economic and political changes worldwide. If you have a quick second, please check it out, http://worldwatch.linuxgazette.com . Additionally we wanted to remind you of two other LJ sites that we hope you'll take advantage of. Those are: Buyer's Guide, http://www.linuxjournal.com/bg List your products and services for free today! Thousands of readers daily. LJ's Product Announcement Service, http://pr.linuxjournal.com Post your press releases here -- we're constantly promoting the site to the mainstream press and analysts as the one-stop shopping center for all of their Linux and Open-Source product and service announcements. We have an active community of site visitors because of this. Make sure to take advantage of this free PR opportunity! Sincerely, Carlie Fairchild carlie@ssc.com VP Marketing and Sales SSC Publications -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 2 22:42:39 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:June Mtg, 6/11 (NOT 3rd Tuesday!) Message-ID: <20030602204239.A6869@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Note the 2nd Wednesday scheduling of our 6/11 meeting (it's usually the 3rd Tuesday). Please take advantage of this by inviting your friends who can't attend on Tuesdays to attend this meeting. Also, it seems likely that our July speaker will be none other than The Damian, entertaining us on July 2nd (the 1st Wednesday). (That's not certain yet, but I'll keep you posted.) I'll probably put together an Argosy cruise with him for Sunday, June 29th, so you might want to keep that afternoon open on your schedule. More details to follow when available. June 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting ----------------------------------------------------- Title: REdeparse: A Tool to Explain Perl Regexes Speaker: Michael Wolf Time-Permitting, a second, "bonus" topic: Title: Perl Certification Moderator: Tim Maher Time: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7-9pm Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St. Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public. Info: http://seattleperl.org/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This month's meeting will begin with Michael giving a sneak preview of his talk for The Perl Conference, by using REdecl to introduce both beginners and experts to the power of Perl's regular expressions (regexes). Even if you haven't yet used regexes, come learn some easy, practical ways to make Perl do your bidding. If you're already a user of Perl's regexes, come learn a few tricks that Michael's mastered over the years. The official announcement from The Perl Conference for the 45-minute version of this talk follows. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * REdeparse is a tool that explains a Perl regular expression, much like the cdecl tool does for C and C++ declarations. Like the Rosetta Stone, it provides multiple views of an expression in two languages--Perl and English. For beginners, REdeparse is a useful training device for learning a "structured English" that facilitates thinking about regular expressions. For more advanced users, REdeparse is a handy addition to a toolkit for code comprehension and debugging. Come watch it work its magic on Perl regular expressions, and take a look behind the user interface into some tricks of how to work with the internal representation of a Perl regular expression. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In whatever time Michael leaves unused, Tim Maher will lead an audience discussion on the controversial topic of Perl Certification, offering a sneak preview of yet another event from The Perl Conference. The official announcement from The Perl Conference for the 45-minute version of this session follows. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Perl community has thus far embraced the proposition of "Perl Certification" with all the zeal of a Trip to the Dentist. And that's understandable, because many certification tests are full of defective questions, short on correct answers, and blithely lacking in sensitivity to the programmer's actual talents. And nobody wants to risk a career opportunity on the verdict of an inadequate testing instrument. Worst of all, some test reports only provide one bit of information! And although a PASS/FAIL grade may be suitable for Gym class, it's certainly not adequate for a enterprise as complex as programming. But these are all arguments against bad tests, not against the notion of testing itself. Professionals specializing in other programming languages, from C to Visual Basic, can present certificates attesting to their knowledge, and many hiring managers expect to see them. Of course, we Perl programmers like to think Perl is fundamentally different from C, and that the skills underlying "PerlThink" are mystical qualities that can't be measured. But are we really so unique? Perhaps it's time to admit we aren't, and get some credentials! This panel will explore these ideas and their potential effects on our language and community, with input from a panel of professionals representing the Perl language, software publishing, software training, IS management, and the testing industry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities --------------------------------- The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time (5:30-5:45pm is recommended). TO BE FAIR, from now on only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore counted in the seating reservation) will be allowed to sit at the speaker's table. ====================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim@timmaher.org | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug@seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.org | ====================================================== From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Jun 3 11:59:44 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Cheap 4-* Hotel for Oscon Message-ID: <20030603095944.A8808@timji.consultix-inc.com> Hotel Scoop for Perl Conference attendees: I scored the 4-* Hotel Vintage Plaza in downtown Portland, within walking distance of the Conference's Marriott, last night for $55 on priceline.com. Its cheapest published price is $115, which is still cheaper than the Marriott conference rate of $129, but I prefer the $55! 8-} I'd rather be in the Marriott, because it's designed more for business travelers than romantic weekends, and I'd prefer a large functional desk over a room with a tiny one but 17 huge pillows on the bed. And, judging from my experience with the "free wine tasting" at the Seattle location of the same hotel, where they only pour two bottles of mediocre stuff to the assembled multitudes, and provide seating for only six, the Vintage Park's wine tasting is likely to be more of a tease than a treat. But I understand the tradeoffs I've made, and I'll be able to buy my own *good* wine and come to some arrangement with the pillow-forest for a savings of $416 over 5 nights (including taxes and priceline.com service fees). And this way I don't have to struggle with sleeping while the reverberations of Ingy's party are cascading through the walls! 8-} Just thought somebody else might like to hear about this option, -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Tue Jun 3 18:15:29 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: OSCON (Perl)? Hackathon In-Reply-To: (Michael R. Wolf's message of "Sat, 31 May 2003 14:04:02 -0700") References: <20030513171048.GG9278@eli.net> <20030514052947.GA30511@shadowed.net> Message-ID: Pretty cool idea. Would be a great way to get your favorite bug killed forever, and meet some cool debuggers. There's an Perl Hackathon within an Open Source Hackathon. Michael Wolf > Allison Randal writes: > >> Joshua Keroes wrote: >>> >>> ***Hackathon July 6 & 7 >>> Pick an open source project, gather a group of hackers, and descend on >>> the Hackathon. We'll provide the room, bandwidth, tables, chairs, and >>> white boards--you provide the code. Space is limited. If you are >>> interested in participating, send email to oscon03hackathon@oreilly.com >>> by June 1, 2003. >>> >>> http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ >> >> People on this list might be particularly interested in the Perlbugathon >> within the Hackathon: >> >> http://www.perl.org/oscon/2003/perlbugathon/ >> >> Come, fix a bug, get a dollar donated to TPF. >> >> Allison >> _______________________________________________ >> Pdx-pm-list mailing list >> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list >> > > -- > Michael R. Wolf > All mammals learn by playing! > MichaelRunningWolf@att.net -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Jun 3 22:53:08 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:-s option doesn't always work! Message-ID: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, I don't use the -s invocation option very often, but for certain categories of students, I think it works well. So imagine my surprise when I learned today that -s on the shebang line seems to be ignored when the script is invoked as an argument to the perl command! None of the other invocation options I can think of works like that, except -T, and there are good reasons for that -- but not for this, AFAIK. I don't find any warning about this goofy behavior in the documentation. Can anybody shed some light on this? -Tim NOTE on session transcript: The edited output appears in the original file, where you can't see it. $ ./change_file5 -old=e -new=E motd Arguments are: motd (That's what I want) $ perl ./change_file5 -old=E -new=e motd Arguments are: -old=E -new=e motd (That's undesirable!) Usage: ./change_file5 -old='old' -new='new' f1 [f2...] BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ./change_file5 line 13. $ perl -s ./change_file5 -old=e -new=E motd Arguments are: motd (That's what I want, but not how I want to get it) $ perl -v This is perl, v5.8.0 built for i586-linux-thread-multi $ cat change_file5 #! /usr/bin/perl -wlps -i.bak BEGIN { $USE="Usage: $0 -old='old' -new='new' f1 [f2...]"; warn "Arguments are: @ARGV\n"; # to debug -s handling problem # Really need more stringent test, but students not ready yet defined $old and defined $new or die "$USE\n"; # must have strings @ARGV > 0 or die "$USE\n"; # mut have at least one filename } s/$old/$new/g; ----- End forwarded message ----- -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Jun 4 00:13:53 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:-s option doesn't always work! In-Reply-To: <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> Message-ID: <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 11:58:28PM -0500, Jeff Almeida wrote: > Also Sprach Tim Maher: > > > >I don't use the -s invocation option very often, but for certain > >categories of students, I think it works well. So imagine my surprise > >when I learned today that -s on the shebang line seems to be ignored > >when the script is invoked as an argument to the perl command! > >None of the other invocation options I can think of works like that, > >except -T, and there are good reasons for that -- but not for this, > >AFAIK. > > IIRC, if you pass the script as an argument to perl, the perl interpreter > is going to see the shebang line as a comment -- remember, the shebang > isn't for perl's benefit, it's to tell the shell what interpreter to > invoke in order to run a particular piece of code, and you've already > told the shell that in an explicit manner. I'm quite surprised > that any command line switches work from the shebang line when the script > is called as an argument -- obviously there is an explicit hack in the > interpreter to look for those... this leads me to be curious if you get Hi Jeff, haven't seen you since my Perl Mongers talk in Dallas some months back, when I advised you not to move to Seattle, due to the severe economic malaise here (more on this below). Funny as it may seem, shebang line switches are supposed to work, documented to work, and the other ones do work, in this way. That's because The Larry considers it proper to harvest the invocation options from the shebang line, so if you're invoking the script as perl's argument, or launching a script on a Windows box by clicking an icon, the interpreter can figure out how it's supposed to behave. As it is written in "man perlrun", The #! line is always examined for switches as the line is being parsed. Thus, if you're on a machine that allows only one argument with the #! line, or worse, doesn't even recognize the #! line, you still can get consistent switch behavior regardless of how Perl was invoked, even if -x was used to find the beginning of the program. > different behavior among different shells (tcsh v. ksh v. bash for > instance). I'll be quite interested to read what others have to say on > this. > > New question: it sounds like over the past several months, Portland has > made itself into quite the perl mecca (good place to point camels, I > suppose *grin*) with Schwern, Ingy, chromatic, et al moving there. What's > going on down there that's causing all the activity? Needless to say, > with my present (lack of a) job situation, moving has certainly moved up > in the list of things we could consider :) > jeff > Jeff D. "Spud (Zeppelin)" Almeida It can't be the economic situation that's drawing them, because Portland is right up there with Seattle in the top 3 nationwide for having the highest unemployment. And most of those folks aren't working too much these days, from what I've heard. By the way, Chris Nandor (pudge, of use.perl.org and Perl on Mac OSx fame), is moving to Washington soon, so we'll have one more guy on our team shortly! I've already talked to him about making a SPUGly presentation, which will be months off, but still something to look forward to. -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Wed Jun 4 01:40:23 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: Neither do I [was Re: SPUG:-s option doesn't always work!] In-Reply-To: <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> (SPUG-list-owner's message of "Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:13:53 -0700") References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: SPUG-list-owner writes: >> >I don't use the -s invocation option very often, but for certain >> >categories of students, I think it works well. I guess the -s sitting on the shebang line is getting more work than the whole rest of the shebang gang in the NW, sitting on our S... Heck, if Larry Wall can't get his "s" to work, what hope do the rest of us JAPH's have getting our "s" to work? That's my view in the NW, how out in the S or the E or elsewhere? [...] > It can't be the economic situation that's drawing them, because Portland > is right up there with Seattle in the top 3 nationwide for having the > highest unemployment. And most of those folks aren't working too much > these days, from what I've heard. Tim refers to OR, AK, and WA as the top 3 nationally ranked states for unemployment. Anyone seen that broken down by sector? (I surely am broken down by the IT sector [cue the rim shot -- ta-dum-dump].) > By the way, Chris Nandor (pudge, of use.perl.org and Perl on Mac OSx > fame), is moving to Washington soon, so we'll have one more guy on > our team shortly! I've already talked to him about making a SPUGly > presentation, which will be months off, but still something to look > forward to. There was a "Misery Loves Company" article in this weeks "Puget Sound Business Journal". -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Wed Jun 4 01:47:56 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:S (actually S-Plus) In-Reply-To: (Michael R. Wolf's message of "Tue, 03 Jun 2003 23:40:23 -0700") References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: Michael R. Wolf writes: > SPUG-list-owner writes: > >>> >I don't use the -s invocation option very often, but for certain >>> >categories of students, I think it works well. > > I guess the -s sitting on the shebang line is getting more work than > the whole rest of the shebang gang in the NW, sitting on our S... > > Heck, if Larry Wall can't get his "s" to work, what hope do the rest > of us JAPH's have getting our "s" to work? Actually, I was getting to research SPLUS (from Insightful, a Seattle company). Anyone know anyone who uses it? Or works there? [1] Thanks. P.S. Ingy had mentioned creating an Perl interface to S-Plus at the most recent MOSS meeting, and I'd been reading a bunch about it while researching some biotech companies. S-Plus and Perl seem to be good tools for bio folks - their head's so full of that life science that their computer science tools have to be easy to use -- for some definition of "easy" -- they don't need no stinkin C++ (it's got too many pluses). [1] If so, let's take it offline. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From djames at serv.net Wed Jun 4 02:14:54 2003 From: djames at serv.net (Daniel James) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:S (actually S-Plus) In-Reply-To: References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <4027.216.39.185.244.1054710894.squirrel@www.oz.net> > Actually, I was getting to research SPLUS (from Insightful, a Seattle > company). Anyone know anyone who uses it? Or works there? [1] I used to work there many moons ago (although as a DBA) as did Scott Blackowitz (another SPUGger) back when it was Mathsoft. I still have a few contacts over there as well (although they've layed off about half the people I used to work with a few years ago). From sthoenna at efn.org Wed Jun 4 02:08:32 2003 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: [PATCH] Re: SPUG:-s option doesn't always work! References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:53:08 -0700, tim@consultix-inc.com wrote: >I don't use the -s invocation option very often, but for certain >categories of students, I think it works well. So imagine my surprise >when I learned today that -s on the shebang line seems to be ignored >when the script is invoked as an argument to the perl command! >Can anybody shed some light on this? This is a bug. See: http://rt.perl.org/rt2//Ticket/Display.html?id=7876 which fixed it in most cases in 5.8.0. It appears to still be a problem when -p or -n is specified on the shebang line but not the actual command line. This should fix it (full test still running): --- perl/toke.c.orig Fri May 9 15:39:28 2003 +++ perl/toke.c Wed Jun 4 00:34:36 2003 @@ -2727,6 +2727,14 @@ Perl_yylex(pTHX) } d = moreswitches(d); } while (d); + if (PL_doswitches && !switches_done) { + int argc = PL_origargc; + char **argv = PL_origargv; + do { + argc--,argv++; + } while (argc && argv[0][0] == '-' && argv[0][1]); + init_argv_symbols(argc,argv); + } if ((PERLDB_LINE && !oldpdb) || ((PL_minus_n || PL_minus_p) && !(oldn || oldp))) /* if we have already added "LINE: while (<>) {", @@ -2740,14 +2748,6 @@ Perl_yylex(pTHX) if (PERLDB_LINE) (void)gv_fetchfile(PL_origfilename); goto retry; - } - if (PL_doswitches && !switches_done) { - int argc = PL_origargc; - char **argv = PL_origargv; - do { - argc--,argv++; - } while (argc && argv[0][0] == '-' && argv[0][1]); - init_argv_symbols(argc,argv); } } } --- perl/t/run/switches.t.orig Thu Oct 17 14:45:52 2002 +++ perl/t/run/switches.t Wed Jun 4 00:50:24 2003 @@ -126,12 +126,11 @@ SKIP: { open my $f, ">$filename" or skip( "Can't write temp file $filename: $!" ); print $f <<'SWTEST'; -#!perl -s -print $x +#!perl -sn +BEGIN { print $x; exit } SWTEST close $f or die "Could not close: $!"; $r = runperl( - switches => [ '-s' ], progfile => $filename, args => [ '-x=foo' ], ); End of Patch. From mkorb at systemsbiology.org Wed Jun 4 11:03:03 2003 From: mkorb at systemsbiology.org (mkorb) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:object in a hash Message-ID: <00aa01c32ab2$c7bcf2a0$4702000a@systemsbiology.net> Here is a script slice 1 $INFOHASH{$infoRecord = new RecordObject(\@columnArray,\@infoArray)}++;; 2 print "$infoRecord\n"; 3 print "$infoRecord->{comName1}\n"; 4 5 6 foreach my $key (keys %INFOHASH) 7 { 8 print "$key\n"; 9 print "$INFOHASH{$key}\n"; 10 print "$key->{comName1}\n"; 11 } Line 2 prints the same as line 8 Line 3 prints the correct value, so does line 9 Line 10 gives me the following error "can not use String RecordObject= Hash... as Hashref while strict refs in use. Isn't line 10 the same as Line 3, see Line 2 and 8 What am I overlooking? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030604/61260ef0/attachment.htm From ingy at ttul.org Wed Jun 4 12:16:22 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Cheap 4-* Hotel for Oscon In-Reply-To: <20030603095944.A8808@timji.consultix-inc.com>; from tim@consultix-inc.com on Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 09:59:44AM -0700 References: <20030603095944.A8808@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030604101622.I27614@ttul.org> On 03/06/03 09:59 -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > Hotel Scoop for Perl Conference attendees: > > I scored the 4-* Hotel Vintage Plaza in downtown Portland, > within walking distance of the Conference's Marriott, last > night for $55 on priceline.com. Its cheapest published price > is $115, which is still cheaper than the Marriott conference > rate of $129, but I prefer the $55! 8-} > > I'd rather be in the Marriott, because it's designed more for > business travelers than romantic weekends, and I'd prefer a > large functional desk over a room with a tiny one but 17 huge > pillows on the bed. And, judging from my experience with the > "free wine tasting" at the Seattle location of the same hotel, > where they only pour two bottles of mediocre stuff to the > assembled multitudes, and provide seating for only six, the > Vintage Park's wine tasting is likely to be more of a tease > than a treat. > > But I understand the tradeoffs I've made, and I'll be able to > buy my own *good* wine and come to some arrangement with the > pillow-forest for a savings of $416 over 5 nights (including > taxes and priceline.com service fees). > > And this way I don't have to struggle with sleeping while > the reverberations of Ingy's party are cascading through the > walls! 8-} TPC is in *my* town this year. There'll be no rest for you, wicked man. Cheers, Brian From kahn at cpan.org Wed Jun 4 12:14:17 2003 From: kahn at cpan.org (Jeremy Kahn) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:object in a hash In-Reply-To: <00aa01c32ab2$c7bcf2a0$4702000a@systemsbiology.net> References: <00aa01c32ab2$c7bcf2a0$4702000a@systemsbiology.net> Message-ID: <3EDE28E9.8060909@cpan.org> Hash keys are always strings. Below I (1) gloss the code you wrote in English, (2) provide some debugging pointers, and (3) provide a suggestion about where to find better documentation of the issues you're tangling with. (1) I gloss in English: Line 1: get a new RecordObject (with parameters), and store a reference to that object in $infoRecord, AND go to the %INFOHASH and increment the value associated with the stringified version of that reference ("RecordObject=Hash0x43debc3" or something similar). Note that INFOHASH now stores ( "RecordObject=Hash0x43debc3" => 1); There's nothing fancy about that value in %INFOHASH -- and it's JUST A STRING now. Note the real reference (in $infoRecord) is still the real reference. Line 2: print the stringified version of that reference Line 3: print the value associated with the key "comName1" within the hash that $infoRecord points to. This is sometimes called "dereferencing $infoRecord" line 8: prints the key (which, per line 1, is a stringified reference). line 9: prints the value (probably 1) line 10: tries to dereference "RecordObject=Hash0x43debc3" -- which ISN'T a reference, only a string. (2) Debugging pointers: You'll see the difference if (instead of print()) you try line 2.5: print ref($infoRecord), "\n" line 9.5: print ref($key), "\n"; My suggestion is that you not use print() as your debugging tool, but Data::Dumper. Data::Dumper does very different things with lines 3 and 10, I'll bet. If you learn the debugger (perldoc perldebug), you could use the 'x' command to dump out the contents of a scalar as well or instead of Data::Dumper. (3): Addressing the problem you're trying to solve, and provide doc pointers: As far as what you're *trying* to do here, I'm not sure, but I would suggest using the object as the *value* of the hash, not the key. It's also worth following up on perldoc perldsc. What I think you're aiming for is a "hash of complex records" (there's a section by that name). Hope that helps. --Jeremy mkorb wrote: > Here is a script slice > > 1 $INFOHASH{$infoRecord = new RecordObject(\@columnArray,\@infoArray)}++;; > > 2 print "$infoRecord\n"; > > 3 print "$infoRecord->{comName1}\n"; > > 4 > > 5 > > 6 foreach my $key (keys %INFOHASH) > > 7 { > > 8 print "$key\n"; > > 9 print "$INFOHASH{$key}\n"; > > 10 print "$key->{comName1}\n"; > > 11 } > > Line 2 prints the same as line 8 > > Line 3 prints the correct value, so does line 9 > > Line 10 gives me the following error ?can not use String RecordObject= > Hash?.. as Hashref while strict refs in use. > > Isn?t line 10 the same as Line 3, see Line 2 and 8 > > What am I overlooking? > > Thanks > From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Wed Jun 4 12:42:22 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Cheap 4-* Hotel for Oscon In-Reply-To: <20030604101622.I27614@ttul.org> (Brian Ingerson's message of "Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:16:22 -0700") References: <20030603095944.A8808@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030604101622.I27614@ttul.org> Message-ID: Brian Ingerson writes: [...] >> And this way I don't have to struggle with sleeping while >> the reverberations of Ingy's party are cascading through the >> walls! 8-} > > TPC is in *my* town this year. There'll be no rest for you, wicked > man. Will there be rest for your wicked neighbors, or are you leasing a suite for an Ingy-thon? I didn't know you did cascading party sheets. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Wed Jun 4 13:04:50 2003 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:object in a hash Message-ID: <200306041804.LAA16796@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Hash keys always get stringified and this morphing breaks the original object reference. There's probably an alternative (and better structure) you could use that'd avoid storing object ref's as hash keys. However, FreezeThaw is a possibility if you're stuck: use FreezeThaw qw( freeze thaw ); $INFOHASH{ freeze( my $obj = new Foo ) }++; ... foreach my $key ( keys %INFOHASH) { my( $obj ) = thaw( $key ); ... } Rgds, -- Charles DeRykus From cmeyer at helvella.org Wed Jun 4 13:26:33 2003 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:object in a hash In-Reply-To: <200306041804.LAA16796@carios2.ca.boeing.com>; from ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com on Wed, Jun 04, 2003 at 11:04:50AM -0700 References: <200306041804.LAA16796@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <20030604112633.A8183@hobart.helvella.org> On Wed, Jun 04, 2003 at 11:04:50AM -0700, ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote: > Hash keys always get stringified and this morphing breaks > the original object reference. There's probably an alternative > (and better structure) you could use that'd avoid storing > object ref's as hash keys. > > However, FreezeThaw is a possibility if you're stuck: > > use FreezeThaw qw( freeze thaw ); > > $INFOHASH{ freeze( my $obj = new Foo ) }++; > ... > > foreach my $key ( keys %INFOHASH) { > my( $obj ) = thaw( $key ); > ... > } Or if you don't feel like writing any extra freeze() and thaw()'s, use Tie::RefHash, which does all that for you. From the perldoc: DESCRIPTION This module provides the ability to use references as hash keys if you first "tie" the hash variable to this module. Normally, only the keys of the tied hash itself are preserved as references; to use references as keys in hashes-of-hashes, use Tie::RefHash::Nestable, included as part of Tie::RefHash. [...] Have fun, -Colin. From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com Wed Jun 4 15:40:19 2003 From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: S (actually S-Plus) In-Reply-To: <4027.216.39.185.244.1054710894.squirrel@www.oz.net> References: <20030603205308.A10630@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030603235828.A64409@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030603221353.A10803@timji.consultix-inc.com> <4027.216.39.185.244.1054710894.squirrel@www.oz.net> Message-ID: <200306042040.h54KePX09830@mail.pm.org> "Daniel James" wrote: > > Actually, I was getting to research SPLUS (from Insightful, a Seattle > > company). Anyone know anyone who uses it? Or works there? [1] > > I used to work there many moons ago (although as a DBA) as did Scott > Blackowitz (another SPUGger) back when it was Mathsoft. I still have a > few contacts over there as well (although they've layed off about half the > people I used to work with a few years ago). Yep...that'd be me (from about 1991-1997...when it was Statistical Sciences to when it became MathSoft). Scott From m3047 at inwa.net Thu Jun 5 13:23:15 2003 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:my server moved again, but the dust has settled Message-ID: My server moved again, but this time it should stay put... and my ever-so-cool ISP gave me 5 fixed IPs and they're still only charging me $20/month. :-) The server now does have a name, devil.m3047.inwa.net. So, the PNW IT SPUG calendar is here: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/calendar/pnwit/ ...or actually, here: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/calendar/pnwit/perl/report.cgi?username=public&m agic=0&report=spug_events and the firewall analyzer/editor tool ("very beta") is here: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/pub/fw-control/ As always, watch out for the 'bot motel: there are no 404s or 403s on this server! Both of those are written in Perl. Not really having much at all to do with Perl: Ben, the owner of my ISP, sues spammers, and being the kinda guy he is, he's put together a 'zine called _Zen and the Art of Small Claims: Suing telemarketers, junk faxers and email spammers for fun and profit_. I'll bring my copy (it's on paper, even) to the meet next Wednesday. (Michael: ok, no more Baywatch jokes.) -- Fred Morris m3047@inwa.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 9 00:31:25 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:59 2004 Subject: SPUG:New Mtg Info, for 6/11 Message-ID: <20030608223125.A28155@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Remember that this month's meeting is on the 2nd Wednesday, 6/11, not the 3rd Tuesday. Please take advantage of this situation by inviting your friends who can't attend on Tuesdays to attend this meeting. Also note that the main topic has changed from a talk about a new Regex-related program to a general Q & A session on Regexes. So please come armed with questions about how to construct regexes and use pattern matching techniques, and be prepared to be informed! Those wishing to dine with others at Cedars, please RSVP to the list with your projected arrival times. ************************************************************** June 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting ----------------------------------------------------- Talk 1: Regex Q & A Session Speaker: Michael Wolf Time-Permitting, a second, "bonus" topic: Talk 2: Perl Certification: Why, How, What? Moderator: Tim Maher Time-Permitting, a third, "super-sized" topic: Talk 3: mg2mgp: A Preprocessor for Magicpoint Moderator: Tim Maher Time: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7-9pm Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St. Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public. Info: http://seattleperl.org/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Talk 1: This month's meeting will begin with a "Question and Answer" session on Perl's Regular Expressions and associated operators (m//, s///, split, etc.). Questions from beginner to expert level will be welcomed, and answers will be attempted. 8-} Even if you haven't yet used regexes, and therefore don't have specific questions yet, come along to learn what's vexing other people, and the associated regexical antidotes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Talk 2: In whatever time Michael leaves unused, Tim Maher will lead an audience discussion on the controversial topic of Perl Certification, offering a sneak preview of yet another event from The Perl Conference. The official announcement from The Perl Conference for the 45-minute session on Perl Certification follows, after the section on Talk 3. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Talk 3: If there's still even more time, Tim will talk about his latest creation -- a preprocessor for the Magicpoint presentation package, that makes it much easier to compose presentations. It consists of 12 separate pure-Perl filters, most of which do heavy-duty text parsing and reformatting of some kind. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Perl community has thus far embraced the proposition of "Perl Certification" with all the zeal of a Trip to the Dentist. And that's understandable, because many certification tests are full of defective questions, short on correct answers, and blithely lacking in sensitivity to the programmer's actual talents. And nobody wants to risk a career opportunity on the verdict of an inadequate testing instrument. Worst of all, some test reports only provide one bit of information! And although a PASS/FAIL grade may be suitable for Gym class, it's certainly not adequate for a enterprise as complex as programming. But these are all arguments against bad tests, not against the notion of testing itself. Professionals specializing in other programming languages, from C to Visual Basic, can present certificates attesting to their knowledge, and many hiring managers expect to see them. Of course, we Perl programmers like to think Perl is fundamentally different from C, and that the skills underlying "PerlThink" are mystical qualities that can't be measured. But are we really so unique? Perhaps it's time to admit we aren't, and get some credentials! This panel will explore these ideas and their potential effects on our language and community, with input from a panel of professionals representing the Perl language, software publishing, software training, IS management, and the testing industry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities --------------------------------- The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time (5:30-5:45pm is recommended). TO BE FAIR, from now on only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore counted in the seating reservation) will be allowed to sit at the speaker's table. ====================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim@timmaher.org | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug@seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.org | ====================================================== From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 9 10:44:40 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? Message-ID: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, One user of my Shell::POSIX::Select module (see http://teachmeperl.com/Select.html) requested an enhancement that I found interesting. Specifically, instead of making a selection from a menu by its number, 1) SPUG 2) SPU 3) SPUD 4) SPUGADELIC he wanted to be able to type the minimal initial string that would uniquely identify a choice. So I whipped up the solution included below, which I rather like, and which (thus far, at least) seems to work also (I love it when that happens)! I landed on the "@choices" =~ /regex/ idea in a moment of inspiration, although I don't think I've ever seen anybody else do that in Perl code. Which probably means there's a better way. So, how would you write this program? #! /usr/bin/perl -w BEGIN { @choices = ( 'ball', 'ball', 'bald', 'balloon', 'ballroom', ); } OUTER: while (1) { print "Enter your choice: "; $input=; defined $input or last; chomp $input; foreach (@choices) { if ( "@choices" =~ /\b($input)\b/ or ( @matches = "@choices" =~ /\b(${input}\w+)\b/g) == 1 ) { $choice=$1; last OUTER; } elsif ($1) { print"Matched: @matches\n"; print "Too many matches; type more characters\n"; last; } else { print "No match\n"; next OUTER; } } } defined $choice and print "Your choice is $choice\n"; -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From legrady at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 11:35:21 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <1055176521.1050.24.camel@desktop> On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 11:44, Tim Maher wrote: > I landed on the > "@choices" =~ /regex/ > idea in a moment of inspiration, although I don't think I've ever > seen anybody else do that in Perl code. Which probably means > there's a better way. Of course, there's the possibility that this is the better way. Every "better way" has a first use. But what's the purpose of the loop? You're checking all the options at once in "@choices" =~ /regex/, and then checking it (scalar @choices) times, thanks to the loop. Or am I missing something? Tom From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 9 11:49:40 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <1055176521.1050.24.camel@desktop> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> <1055176521.1050.24.camel@desktop> Message-ID: <20030609094940.A30033@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:35:21PM -0400, Tom Legrady wrote: > On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 11:44, Tim Maher wrote: > > I landed on the > > "@choices" =~ /regex/ > > idea in a moment of inspiration, although I don't think I've ever > > seen anybody else do that in Perl code. Which probably means > > there's a better way. > > Of course, there's the possibility that this is the better way. Every > "better way" has a first use. > > But what's the purpose of the loop? You're checking all the options at > once in "@choices" =~ /regex/, and then checking it (scalar @choices) > times, thanks to the loop. Or am I missing something? > > Tom Yes, you're missing the historical baggage that left that extraneous loop as a remnant. 8-} While you were typing this message, I had some time for further testing, and I've arrived at the new version included below. #! /usr/bin/perl -w BEGIN { @choices = ( 'ball', 'ball', 'bald', 'balloon', 'ballroom', ); } OUTER: while (! defined $choice) { print "Enter your choice: "; $input=; # $choice undefined on input of ^D defined $input or last; chomp $input; if ( ( @matches = "@choices" =~ /\b(${input}\w*)\b/g ) == 1 ) { $choice=$1; } elsif (@matches > 1) { print"Matched: @matches\n"; print "Too many matches; type more characters\n"; } else { print "No match\n"; } } defined $choice and print "Your choice is $choice\n"; -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From acme at astray.com Mon Jun 9 11:53:50 2003 From: acme at astray.com (Leon Brocard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030609165350.GC22114@kanga.astray.com> Tim Maher sent the following bits through the ether: > 1) SPUG 2) SPU 3) SPUD 4) SPUGADELIC > he wanted to be able to type the minimal initial string that > would uniquely identify a choice. I'm not sure what you want, but does Text::Abbrev (in core) help? Leon -- Leon Brocard.............................http://www.astray.com/ scribot.................................http://www.scribot.com/ ... These are not the droids you're looking for From legrady at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 11:56:35 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] Message-ID: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> Will someone please tell Joe that I was irritated the first time his system responded to a message I sent the mailing list with the following, getting it over and over, each time I send a message, makes me very unhappy. Tom Legrady -----Forwarded Message----- > From: Joe Devlin > To: legrady@earthlink.net > Subject: Please stop sending me emails > Date: 09 Jun 2003 09:40:57 -0700 > > **** THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC REPLY **** > > Your e-mail message to me (see below) was not delivered. I > am no longer accepting mail from your address. > > This extreme measure was most likely taken in response > to unsolicited or unwanted e-mail from you. If you were > attempting to market a commercial product or service to me, > then please note that I am absolutely not interested in > it. I take a dim view of any form of UCE, and on principle > refuse to patronize any business that resorts to this > tactic. > > **** ESTA ES UNA RESPUESTA AUTOMATICA **** > > El mensaje de e-mail que usted me envi? (mostrado abajo) no > fue entregado. Mensajes provenientes de su direcci?n no > seran aceptados. > > Esta medida extrema ha sido todama en respuesta a e-mail no > solicitado ni deseado de su parte. Si usted esta intentando > anunciar un producto comercial o alg?n servicio, note que no > estoy intersado en lo absoluto en ?ste. No apoyo ningun tipo > de Email Comercial No Solicitado, y me rehuso a patrocinar o > promover cualquier negocio que emplee esta t?ctica. > > **** ESTA MENSAGEM FOI GERADA AUTOMATICAMENTE *** > > A sua mensagem (abaixo) n?o foi entregue. Emails vindos do > seu endere?o n?o ser?o mais aceitos. > > Esta medida extrema foi provavelmente tomada em resposta ? > email n?o solicitado de sua parte. Se voce est? tentando > promover um produto ou servi?o desta forma, saiba que n?o > possuo qualquer interesse. ? minha pol?tica pessoal n?o > fazer neg?cios com qualquer empresa ou indiv?duo que recorra > a SPAM para promover o seu neg?cio. > > **** DIES IST EINE AUTOMATISCH GENERIERTE ANTWORT **** > > Ihre Mail an mich (unten angehaengt) wurde nicht zugestellt. > Ich nehme keine Mail mehr von Ihrer Senderadresse entgegen. > > Diese einschneidende Massnahme wird im allgemeinen als Ab- > wehr gegen unerwuenschte oder sogenannte "Spam"-Mails er- > griffen, die von Ihnen an mich gesendet wurden. Wenn Sie mir > ein Produkt oder eine Dienstleistung verkaufen wollen, dann > tun Sie es bitte nicht mittels E-Mail. Ich lehne Vermarktung > von Waren oder Dienstleistungen mit Hilfe von unerwuenschten > E-Mails (UCE) prinzipiell ab. > > **** QUESTA E' UNA RISPOSTA AUTOMATICA**** > > L'E-Mail spedita (vedi sotto) non ? stata inoltrata. > Nessuna E-Mail sar? pi? accettata dal tuo indirizzo di posta > elettronica. > > Questa misura estrema ? stata presa in risposta alle tue > E-Mail non richieste e volute. Se speri di vendermi un > prodotto o servizio commerciale, per cortesia prendi nota > che non mi interessa assolutamente. Ho una cattiva opinione > a riguardo di ogni forma di spam, e rifiuto qualsiasi > rapporto commerciale con chi utilizza questo mezzo di > promozione. > > --- Original Message Follows --- > > Subject: Re: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? > From: Tom Legrady > To: Tim Maher , > Date: 09 Jun 2003 12:35:21 -0400 > > On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 11:44, Tim Maher wrote: > > I landed on the > > "@choices" =~ /regex/ > > idea in a moment of inspiration, although I don't think I've ever > > seen anybody else do that in Perl code. Which probably means > > there's a better way. > > Of course, there's the possibility that this is the better way. Every > "better way" has a first use. > > But what's the purpose of the loop? You're checking all the options at > once in "@choices" =~ /regex/, and then checking it (scalar @choices) > times, thanks to the loop. Or am I missing something? > > Tom > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > > > This email account is protected by: > Active Spam Killer (ASK) V2.0.2 - (C) 2001-2002 by Marco Paganini > For more information, visit http://www.paganini.net/ask -- Regime change begins at home. From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 9 12:20:21 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <20030609165350.GC22114@kanga.astray.com> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030609165350.GC22114@kanga.astray.com> Message-ID: <20030609102021.A30158@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 05:53:50PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: > Tim Maher sent the following bits through the ether: > > > 1) SPUG 2) SPU 3) SPUD 4) SPUGADELIC > > he wanted to be able to type the minimal initial string that > > would uniquely identify a choice. > > I'm not sure what you want, but does Text::Abbrev (in core) help? I'm pretty sure it could help, but it's hard to tell from the man page, which shows nothing more than the function calling syntax. At least an example of what a "unique, truncated initial string" *is* would have been nice. But if you wrote the module, all is forgiven 8-} But thanks for bringing this to my attention! Being a teacher, I'm always looking for simple code samples that succinctly demonstrate a feature, so I'm rather inclined in my own programming to reinvent existing wheels just to see if my implementation turns out to be useful for teaching. But it's nice to know what's in the core too. Will we see you at YAPC this year? Will you be perhaps even be my official "handler" for my tutorial presenation, as in Amsterdam? 8-} > > Leon > -- > Leon Brocard.............................http://www.astray.com/ > scribot.................................http://www.scribot.com/ > > ... These are not the droids you're looking for > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From david.dyck at fluke.com Mon Jun 9 12:21:55 2003 From: david.dyck at fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] In-Reply-To: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 at 12:56 -0400, Tom Legrady wrote: > Will someone please tell Joe that I was irritated the first time his > system responded to a message I sent the mailing list with the > following, getting it over and over, each time I send a message, makes > me very unhappy. > > Tom Legrady Tom, Perhaps it's your "earthlink" email address :-) I forwarded your email message It appears that Joe is running Active Spam Killer http://www.paganini.net/ask/ It looks like ask is a python tool, but perhaps Joe is bilingual :-) David From acme at astray.com Mon Jun 9 12:27:47 2003 From: acme at astray.com (Leon Brocard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <20030609102021.A30158@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030609165350.GC22114@kanga.astray.com> <20030609102021.A30158@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030609172747.GA22963@kanga.astray.com> SPUG-list-owner sent the following bits through the ether: > ... Yes, a lot of the core modules could do with better documentation. I agree. I just don't have the time to do it. > Will we see you at YAPC this year? Will you be perhaps even be > my official "handler" for my tutorial presenation, as in Amsterdam? 8-} My Perl conference world tour has already begun, but I'll also be at YAPC::NA, OSCON and YAPC::EU. I'm not helping organise YAPC::EU. Or at least, I don't *think* I am. I mean, the conference colour is pink. Pink! Not orange... Leon -- Leon Brocard.............................http://www.astray.com/ scribot.................................http://www.scribot.com/ ... As I said before, I never repeat myself From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com Mon Jun 9 15:53:17 2003 From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <20030609094940.A30033@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> <1055176521.1050.24.camel@desktop> <20030609094940.A30033@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <200306092053.h59KrNB04043@mail.pm.org> SPUG-list-owner wrote: > While you were typing this message, I had some time for further testing, > and I've arrived at the new version included below. > > #! /usr/bin/perl -w > BEGIN { > @choices = ( > 'ball', 'ball', 'bald', 'balloon', 'ballroom', > ); > } > > OUTER: while (! defined $choice) { > print "Enter your choice: "; $input=; # $choice undefined on input of ^D > defined $input or last; > chomp $input; > > if ( ( @matches = "@choices" =~ /\b(${input}\w*)\b/g ) == 1 ) { Do you want to enclose that "${input}" in \Q...\E (if I remember correctly) to quote the input for use in the regexp? Unless you want regexp matching chars to be typed in by the user. Also...are any of your choices likely to contain embedded white space? Maybe you could pick a character that'll never appear in your strings and use something like this (untested) type of logic: my $delim = "\001"; my @choices = ( ... ); my $choices = $delim . join($delim, @choices) . $delim; ...etc... if ((@matches = "${choices}" =~ /${delim}\Q${input}\E${delim}/g) == 1) { ...etc... Scott > $choice=$1; > } > elsif (@matches > 1) { > print"Matched: @matches\n"; > print "Too many matches; type more characters\n"; > } > else { > print "No match\n"; > } > } > defined $choice and print "Your choice is $choice\n"; > > -- > > -Tim From legrady at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 16:06:59 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: Minimal Typing for Selections; ideas? In-Reply-To: <200306092053.h59KrNB04043@mail.pm.org> References: <20030609084440.A29738@timji.consultix-inc.com> <1055176521.1050.24.camel@desktop> <20030609094940.A30033@timji.consultix-inc.com> <200306092053.h59KrNB04043@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <1055192818.2232.50.camel@desktop> On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 16:53, Scott Blachowicz wrote: > my $delim = "\001"; > my @choices = ( ... ); > my $choices = $delim . join($delim, @choices) . $delim; > Since 'local' is so rarely used, I hate to see you pass up the opportunity: { local $" = "\001"; if ( ( @matches = "@choices" =~ /\b(${input}\w*)\b/g ) == 1 ) { ... } To From jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com Tue Jun 10 01:34:26 2003 From: jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com (Stadium District) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> Message-ID: <003601c32f1a$57a08a60$5be84b43@oemcomputer> David and Tom, I am currently blocking all of the Earthlink e-mails because they seem to be allowing too many people to send as much spam as profitable. They don't seem to have a good outbound policy. Please call Earthlink and tell them how irritated you are that your e-mail is blocked for this reason. I will do the same. Currently Earthlink is my web access provider and and I have been happy with their high level of availability and good connections. However, I pay for my e-mail names separately out of my own pocket over $300 per year, and do not ever spam from my address to protect what's left of my good name. My web host is a local and reputable provider. I will look into this 'problem' and see if I can find a resolution. Thanks David for the heads up. My apologies Tom L. for the mess. Joe Devlin cc: Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyck" To: "Tom Legrady" Cc: "Seattle Perl Users Group" Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:21 AM Subject: Re: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 at 12:56 -0400, Tom Legrady wrote: > > > Will someone please tell Joe that I was irritated the first time his > > system responded to a message I sent the mailing list with the > > following, getting it over and over, each time I send a message, makes > > me very unhappy. > > > > Tom Legrady > > Tom, > Perhaps it's your "earthlink" email address :-) > I forwarded your email message > > It appears that Joe is running Active Spam Killer > http://www.paganini.net/ask/ > > It looks like ask is a python tool, but perhaps Joe is bilingual :-) > > David > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > > From aaron at activox.com Tue Jun 10 08:52:31 2003 From: aaron at activox.com (Aaron Salo) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] In-Reply-To: <003601c32f1a$57a08a60$5be84b43@oemcomputer> References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030610065231.017f36f8@mail.activox.com> At 11:34 PM 6/9/2003 -0700, Stadium District wrote: >They don't seem to have a good outbound policy. Please call Earthlink >and tell them how irritated you are that your e-mail is blocked for this >reason. I will do the same. ::SNIP:: >I will look into this 'problem' and see if I can find a resolution. FWIW my previous frustration with such things has dropped to virtually nil after installing SpamAssassin. Using the default settings, only a tiny handful get through now. Tiny, as in one or two a day. I have all the flagged spam put into a spambox for review, peek thru it on the server using pine to avoid the need to download it, and then flush it once a week. Last week, 877 pieces of spam got snagged. There have been weeks with more than 1300 pieces nailed. The half hour it took me to download it and install has been repaid many many times over. And I no longer have to blindly | /dev/null all the inbound mail from yahoo, hotmail, msn, earthlink or keep tweaking my procmail filters for new keywords as I was doing before. Give it a try. HTH. aaron From creede at penguinsinthenight.com Tue Jun 10 10:10:06 2003 From: creede at penguinsinthenight.com (Creede Lambard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20030610065231.017f36f8@mail.activox.com> References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> <3.0.5.32.20030610065231.017f36f8@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: <1055257805.13187.5.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> I just updated SpamAssassin from CPAN (obPerl) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to find out that they now offer an option for Bayesian filtering. (I don't know if this is old hat to everyone else, but it was news to me.) So, I've started saving up old spam to recycle through the Bayesian filter. I think when Paul Graham came up with the idea he seeded his filter with about 4,000 pieces. I figure it'll take me maybe six weeks, tops, to get that many from my primary spam source. -- Creede On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 06:52, Aaron Salo wrote: > FWIW my previous frustration with such things has dropped to virtually nil > after installing SpamAssassin. Using the default settings, only a tiny > handful get through now. Tiny, as in one or two a day. > > I have all the flagged spam put into a spambox for review, peek thru it on > the server using pine to avoid the need to download it, and then flush it > once a week. Last week, 877 pieces of spam got snagged. There have been > weeks with more than 1300 pieces nailed. The half hour it took me to > download it and install has been repaid many many times over. And I no > longer have to blindly | /dev/null all the inbound mail from yahoo, > hotmail, msn, earthlink or keep tweaking my procmail filters for new > keywords as I was doing before. > > Give it a try. HTH. > > aaron -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030610/a231a5e2/attachment.bin From spug at ifokr.org Tue Jun 10 10:30:12 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] In-Reply-To: <1055257805.13187.5.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> <3.0.5.32.20030610065231.017f36f8@mail.activox.com> <1055257805.13187.5.camel@svetlana.penguinsinthenight.com> Message-ID: <20030610153012.GB21310@ifokr.org> > I think when Paul Graham came up with the > idea he seeded his filter with about 4,000 pieces. I figure it'll take > me maybe six weeks, tops, to get that many from my primary spam source. 4000 pieces? That's one day for me. The hazards of having had the same email address before spammers learned to spam... -- Brian Hatch "I thought the purpose of filing Systems and these reports was to provide Security Engineer accurate intelligence." http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ "Vir, intelligence has nothing to do with politics." Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030610/fcebaeca/attachment.bin From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Tue Jun 10 16:45:27 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Talk change for Wednesday meeting Message-ID: I have retained the "Regex" flavor, but will be *not* be speaking about REdeparse. Here is the new announcement for my segment of the evening's meeting: Regular Expressions are powerful. Regular Expressions are complex. And Regular expressions can be simple, too. When I teach Regular Expressions to programmers at Fortune 500 companies, I like to use a "Rosetta Stone" analogy, starting from a language that we all know (English, data, written) and use that as a stepping stone to a language we're learning -- Perl Regular Expressions. In keeping with "SPUG beginner night", I will introduce regular expressions and show how some of them have been helpful to me. Apropos of Rosetta Stone, I will show you a "Structured English" that you can learn to translate from what you know into this new language. This will be an interactive session, involving the expertise in the audience, and soliciting problems (solved or unsolved) from the audience that we can work together as an aid to learning this new language called Regular Expressions. Perl is a language for getting your job done. -- Larry Wall What is your job? -- Michael Wolf Really! Let's do some *real* work on *real* problems. Enough already about phone numbers, zip codes, and URL's -- that's not what you need to do on your real job. Let's look at problems from your real job. If it involves data, parsing, or scanning of data, please bring in the hard problems that you haven't yet solved, and let's solve them together. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Jun 10 16:56:03 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:What lists to cross-post to? Message-ID: <20030610145603.A2516@timji.consultix-inc.com> Anybody have ideas on other lists (programming, linux, system-admin, etc.) that we should be posting our SPUG announcements to? I'm under the impression that Jeremy and others are cross-posting on their own, but maybe I should assemble a list of other sites, and subscribe to them under a special account, and post all our meeting announcements to them. Whaddya all think? Would I be arrested for Spamming, or is this a good idea? If so, name some lists. -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com Tue Jun 10 19:02:06 2003 From: jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com (Stadium District) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> Message-ID: <00a301c32fac$b2cbffe0$9fcb4b43@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 at 12:56 -0400, Tom Legrady wrote: > > Will someone please tell Joe that I was irritated the first time his > > system responded to a message I sent the mailing list with the > > following, getting it over and over, each time I send a message, makes > > me very unhappy. > > Tom Legrady I did talk to Earthlink and they have a zero tolerance policy for spam. Instead of blacklisting all Earthlink addresses, I will call them directly and report specific addresses, and that person will lose their privileges. Of course I want to receive mail from the list and those posting to the list I naturally do not consider as spam. To those who suggested spam-assasin on CPAN, thanks I will take a look at it. The blacklist e-mails should no longer be a problem for Tom with an earthlink e-mail address. Joe Devlin From legrady at earthlink.net Tue Jun 10 22:39:51 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re:[Fwd: Please stop sending me emails] In-Reply-To: <00a301c32fac$b2cbffe0$9fcb4b43@oemcomputer> References: <1055177794.1034.27.camel@desktop> <00a301c32fac$b2cbffe0$9fcb4b43@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <1055302791.25817.22.camel@desktop> My suggestion is that if Joe does not wish to receive mail from certain members of SPUG, he should be dropped from the list, and not have to tolerate ANY mail from the list. Tom On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 20:02, Stadium District wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 at 12:56 -0400, Tom Legrady wrote: > > > Will someone please tell Joe that I was irritated the first time his > > > system responded to a message I sent the mailing list with the > > > following, getting it over and over, each time I send a message, makes > > > me very unhappy. > > > Tom Legrady > > > I did talk to Earthlink and they have a zero tolerance policy for spam. Instead > of > blacklisting all Earthlink addresses, I will call them directly and report > specific addresses, > and that person will lose their privileges. Of course I want to receive mail > from the list > and those posting to the list I naturally do not consider as spam. > > To those who suggested spam-assasin on CPAN, thanks I will take a look at it. > > The blacklist e-mails should no longer be a problem for Tom with an earthlink > e-mail > address. > > Joe Devlin > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org -- Regime change begins at home. From kozmomann at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 03:34:41 2003 From: kozmomann at yahoo.com (cosmo king) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:RSVP for spug-meeting and dinner Message-ID: <20030611083441.57816.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com> I'd like to attend. Hope I'm replying to the right venue. Thanks, Cosmo King __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From m3047 at inwa.net Wed Jun 11 17:37:15 2003 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Cedars Message-ID: Between 5:30 and 5:45. -- FWM From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Thu Jun 12 13:27:34 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Networking Group Message-ID: Fellow networkers, employed or not, In order to polish my skills as a full-time networker[1], I've started attending meetings in West Seattle at the home office of my career coach. The evening meetings are 2 hours, every other week, with a $20 investment. Although I am working professionally with Sherri, it is not a requirement for attending the networking meetings. The next meeting is tonight (June 12, 7-9 pm). I'll be there. Because Sherri's background is in sales, marketing and staffing, I have learned a lot that has helped me move my job search forward. Especially, I'm learning informational interviewing techniques that are getting me information beyond the superficial level and sales techniques that give me more control of the hiring cycle. As a techie, these sales/marketing/staffing skills are not natural to me. They are hard, but become easier with practice. Although I'm not a big sports fan (participant or spectator), I see a big value in having an outside set of eyes to make observations and get me back on the court. If you're interested, let me know. I can connect you. Happy Hunting, Michael Wolf Notes- [1] an activity I'm working to move from full-time volunteer status to part-time paid status as other paid activities fill my schedule. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Thu Jun 12 14:25:46 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:What lists to cross-post to? In-Reply-To: <20030610145603.A2516@timji.consultix-inc.com> (Tim Maher's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:56:03 -0700") References: <20030610145603.A2516@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: Tim Maher writes: [...] > Whaddya all think? Would I be arrested for Spamming, or is this a > good idea? Cross-posting is good, excessive cross-posting is bad. I'd suggest these guidelines: - spug-list-owner should do all the cross postings. That lessens the load on others, by centralizing the marketing effort, and makes it more consistent. - Encourage folks that are currently posting to put in a good word as a follow up to the message. - Creat a great (short, descriptive) header to quickly give folks enough info to read or delete the message. Essentially: "SPUG Meeting Announcement for <<00/00>> -- <>" - A whole copy/paste of the 1-2 paragraph meeting announcement and a URL for further information. A question I'd ask you would be -- what kinds of announcements would you welcome on this board? Then "do unto others as you would have ndone unto you". I would welcome more announcements on SPUG. If I liked them, I'd subscribe over there, however. I wouldn't expect to receive all my info as a a cross-post. A cross-post should only be a teaser to the real magilla. As far as groups, how 'bout these (for various reasons)? pm.org -- general calendar for itinerant IT workers? array(bio) LRIG WSA WBBA ACM PHP User Group Python User Group Java User Group Data Base User Groups (Oracle, Informix, MySQL, DB2) bioperl www.perl.org -> perl.daily.news (any google search yeilding SPUG or these cross-posted groups) Some may accept a cross-posting, but some will have a closed door policy toward announcing outside meetings. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Thu Jun 12 14:27:47 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:What lists to cross-post to? In-Reply-To: <20030610145603.A2516@timji.consultix-inc.com> (Tim Maher's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:56:03 -0700") References: <20030610145603.A2516@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: Tim Maher writes: [...] > Whaddya all think? Would I be arrested for Spamming, or is this a > good idea? Cross-posting is good, excessive cross-posting is bad. I'd suggest these guidelines: - spug-list-owner should do all the cross postings. That lessens the load on others, by centralizing the marketing effort, and makes it more consistent. - Encourage folks that are currently posting to put in a good word as a follow up to the message. - Creat a great (short, descriptive) header to quickly give folks enough info to read or delete the message. Essentially: "SPUG Meeting Announcement for <<00/00>> -- <>" - A whole copy/paste of the 1-2 paragraph meeting announcement and a URL for further information. A question I'd ask you would be -- what kinds of announcements would you welcome on this board? Then "do unto others as you would have ndone unto you". I would welcome more announcements on SPUG. If I liked them, I'd subscribe over there, however. I wouldn't expect to receive all my info as a a cross-post. A cross-post should only be a teaser to the real magilla. As far as groups, how 'bout these (for various reasons)? pm.org -- general calendar for itinerant IT workers? array(bio) LRIG WSA WBBA ACM PHP User Group Python User Group Java User Group Data Base User Groups (Oracle, Informix, MySQL, DB2) bioperl www.perl.org -> perl.daily.news (any google search yeilding SPUG or these cross-posted groups) Some may accept a cross-posting, but some will have a closed door policy toward announcing outside meetings. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Fri Jun 13 19:19:00 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:SPUG_June_2003-1.00.tar.gz available Message-ID: I've rolled up a package of the files I used for my talk last Tuesday. Send me email if you'd like 'em. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 13 19:39:08 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site Message-ID: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com> For those interested in following the developments (and preparations) for next week's Florida YAPC conference, check out yapc.kwiki.org, a production of former SPUGster Brian "Ingy" Ingerson. As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software is way cool! -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From andrew at sweger.net Sat Jun 14 14:42:16 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > For those interested in following the developments (and > preparations) for next week's Florida YAPC conference, > check out yapc.kwiki.org, a production of former SPUGster > Brian "Ingy" Ingerson. "former?" I'd be willing to extended at least honorary lifetime membership to him. :) > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software > is way cool! And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here. http://www.kwiki.org/ -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Jun 14 15:40:13 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: References: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > > > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software > > is way cool! > > And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have > Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package > and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here. > > http://www.kwiki.org/ > -- > Andrew B. Sweger Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? ======================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim(AT)timmaher.org | | JAWCAR ("Just Another White-Camel Award Recipient") | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug(AT)seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.org | ======================================================= From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sat Jun 14 22:46:31 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> (SPUG-list-owner's message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:40:13 -0700") References: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: SPUG-list-owner writes: > On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: >> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: >> >> > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software >> > is way cool! >> >> And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have >> Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package >> and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here. >> >> http://www.kwiki.org/ >> -- >> Andrew B. Sweger > > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? [[Preface -- I know this is a tangent to the original post. Please bear with me and reply to my points, not my divergence from the original point.]] Call me old fashioned, but I have a *strong* preference for discussions to continue via email or news. "Click, drag, move, mouse" is significantly more annoying to me than using my home-key-based news/email environment. A mouse is an effecient beginning input device, but an inefficient advanced tool. (Don't believe it? Disable your keyboard, but enable a window with a keyboard image in it, then see how well you compose messages with a mouse.) WYSIWYG is a step backwards. Human labor is used to do that which the computer can do better. -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum I get that Wiki is an attempt at simple WYSIWYG, but it cuts off a whole lineage of news reading tools and requires folks to navigate themselves to the news rather than having the news come to them. In that respect, Wiki is counter to much of the culture of news reading. I get a newspaper delivered to my door, despite having a public library 2 blocks away. Call me wasteful! It just fits in with my routine, and I like my services to serve me, not me to cater to them. I think Wiki may be good for other things, however. But don't reinvent the flat tire (a recognition that a wheel is many iterations later) just to try a new technology. Use existing technology to compose, deliver, and view the content. The energy you save could be invested in the creativity of creating *content* not redeveloping *structure*. So, I'd prefer that we do *nog* explore Wiki for a *replacement* of this discussion. But if Wiki could be a *mirror* of this by using a SMTP or NNTP gateway, that would be better -- Add folks who perfer Wiki, without cutting off folks who don't. (That seems to be how many of the perl.org groups are. I read 'em with NNTP, but many folks read them with HTTP.) End rant, Michael Wolf P.S. I know my reply wasn't in direct response to the original post. It just triggered somethin for me. For instance, I do *NOT* read the newly created MOSS Wiki, but I *do* read email from the list. Call me lazy, but it cuts me out from a portion of what's going on in that community. Perhaps the net gain is better than the net loss, a decision all communities or groups must make, but at some basic level, I don't get Wiki. It seems to require that all posters be mini WYSIWYG-webmasters-in-training and all that readers must continually re-read content to discover what's changed. All seems like a waste of human time for what computers do better. P.P.S. I guess I've asked for it indirectly, so I'll ask dirctly -- Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite, familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute their favorite news/email reader and make the same point). An inquiring (underinformed) mind wants to know.... Yes, I have to admit my ignorance in order to satisfy my curiosity! -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From andrew at sweger.net Sat Jun 14 23:59:26 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email > lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite, > familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because > it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute > their favorite news/email reader and make the same point). Hello from the muggy mouth of the rat (Boca Raton). The short answer is that a Wiki is not better. It is different. It's more like the bulletin board at the local grocery store. But one with unlimited area and links dynamically created between relevant topics. And anyone can walk up and change it. A wiki is an excellent way to preserve knowledge that was learned by hard work so it's not lost to "future generations". And updating the information doesn't have to wait for some special person to update the information (a bottleneck). Wiki abhors control (although Kwiki will let you add control if you want it). A good example of preserving knowledge is this year's YAPC Wiki, yapc.kwiki.org. Instead of everyone asking on the mailing list for information, they can check the Wiki. It's a community driven FAQ, and then some. SeattleWireless has had an awesome Wiki running for years now. Tons of information there, seattlewireless.net. The entire site is essentially a Wiki. Heck, I just set up another Wiki this morning for LlamaCard. (Coming soon) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From andrew at sweger.net Sun Jun 15 00:03:58 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? Sure. But it only holds real value to the community if there is a body of knowledge related to SPUG that can be maintained by the community. So, I guess it's up to this community and its leader to decide what would go there. I suspect that much of the information on this mailing list is discussion oriented and transient. So, it doesn't necessarily fit with strengths offered by a Wiki. The SeattlePerl website could become a Wiki, but how much of that is really in need of community stewardship? We have you! :) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 15 00:45:16 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: References: <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030614224516.A20855@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 10:03:58PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > > > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? > > Sure. But it only holds real value to the community if there is a body of > knowledge related to SPUG that can be maintained by the community. So, I > guess it's up to this community and its leader to decide what would go > there. I think a SPUG Wiki could be good for: ideas for future talks, ideas for speakers to invite, mini reviews of recent talks, notices of other groups' meetings and upcoming conferences, cheap hotels for conferences (like my posts to the SPUG list for a $55 hotel for YAPC, which would be better preserved for easy access ona Wiki), and so forth. But my main impetus for trying this out is that I see the Wiki as a sort of "transformational technology" (not sure who I'm quoting there), that takes on a life of its own and ends up evolving to best serve whatever purposes it best supports. And a traditional web-page can't compete too well in that area. > The SeattlePerl website could become a Wiki, but how much of that is > really in need of community stewardship? We have you! :) > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several That's both good and bad 8-} Given my personal bandwidth, I'm sometimes more of a bottleneck than a conduit. 8-[ But I shudder to think of a Wiki as the sole presence for SPUG on the 'net. How long would it take for some renegade band of Python fanatics to deface our site with beautifully indented Perlistic blasphemy, and how many times a day would we have to scrape that kind of crap off the site? What's the Wiki track record in this area? The lack of security, that enables the bulletin board metaphor to work, concerns me. -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From andrew at sweger.net Sun Jun 15 02:42:10 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <20030614224516.A20855@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > I think a SPUG Wiki could be good for: ideas for future talks, ideas for > speakers to invite, mini reviews of recent talks, notices of > other groups' meetings and upcoming conferences, cheap hotels for > conferences (like my posts to the SPUG list for a $55 hotel for YAPC, > which would be better preserved for easy access ona Wiki), and so forth. Let's give it a shot. I'm happy to set it up and host it. I'll just need an appropriate name pointed at the right server (details in separate email). -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 15 03:38:45 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site Message-ID: <200306150838.h5F8cjd06750@catmanor.com> > >So, I'd prefer that we do *nog* explore Wiki for a *replacement* of >this discussion. But if Wiki could be a *mirror* of this by using a >SMTP or NNTP gateway, that would be better -- Add folks who perfer >Wiki, without cutting off folks who don't. (That seems to be how many >of the perl.org groups are. I read 'em with NNTP, but many folks read >them with HTTP.) > >End rant, >Michael Wolf I would agree that a wiki would not be a replacement of this mail list but I think would be a valuable enhacement. A person with a particular problem can post their code to the wiki and foster colabrative enhancement. Modern wiki's have full revision control and very powerful search capabilities. We use a wiki at work to provide a place for everyone to put all their bits of postit notes, scraps of email, unwritten knowlege, tips, techniques, diagrams, and howtos. The original wiki was a product of an extreme programming project by Ward Cunnimham of www.c2.com. I tried the code available from c2.com and I found it very limiting. Instead I used a "patched" version of "UseModWiki" called NeuroWiki. See http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PatchedScripts I have setup my domain to be a wiki. See http:/www.catmanor.com The page is dedicated to poems by T. S. Eloit. If you have any poetry of you own, I encourage you to contribute. Wiki's are not necesssary linear like smtp or threaded like nntp. Any page can reference any other page. In usemod, a click on the page name will provide a reference to the page and all other pages that reference it. > >P.S. I know my reply wasn't in direct response to the original post. >It just triggered somethin for me. For instance, I do *NOT* read the >newly created MOSS Wiki, but I *do* read email from the list. Call me >lazy, but it cuts me out from a portion of what's going on in that >community. Perhaps the net gain is better than the net loss, a >decision all communities or groups must make, but at some basic level, >I don't get Wiki. It seems to require that all posters be mini >WYSIWYG-webmasters-in-training and all that readers must continually >re-read content to discover what's changed. All seems like a waste of >human time for what computers do better. On one click on "recent changes" you can get a list of all the wiki pages that have been modified. You can do revision comparisons. > >P.P.S. I guess I've asked for it indirectly, so I'll ask dirctly -- >Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email >lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite, >familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because >it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute >their favorite news/email reader and make the same point). > >An inquiring (underinformed) mind wants to know.... I think the value is that of cooperative development with full version control. I can post some code and anyone can enhance it. Unlike mail and usenet, the lastest version is in one place. It is easy to perform diffs of previous versions to see what has changed. Try that with nntp. > >Yes, I have to admit my ignorance in order to satisfy my curiosity! Since the original wiki developed by Ward Cunninham, there have been over 200 versions implemented in many languages. It is a big place to explore and learn. William Julien _,'| _.-''``-...___..--'; moonbeam@catmanor.com /, \'. _..-' , ,--...--''' vi is my shepherd; < \ .`--''' ` /| i shall not font. `-,;' ; ; ; __...--'' __...--_..' .;.' (,__....----''' (,..--'' perl -e '( $ ,, $ ")=("a".."z")[0,-1]; print "sh", $ ","m\n";;";;"' > >-- >Michael R. Wolf > All mammals learn by playing! > MichaelRunningWolf@att.net > >_____________________________________________________________ >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List >POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org >ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list >MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA >WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 15 04:15:51 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site Message-ID: <200306150915.h5F9Fp006766@catmanor.com> > >But I shudder to think of a Wiki as the sole presence for SPUG on >the 'net. How long would it take for some renegade band of Python fanatics >to deface our site with beautifully indented Perlistic blasphemy, >and how many times a day would we have to scrape that kind of crap >off the site? There were a lot of security concerns at work regarding the capability of anyone editing any page. Fortunatly, the wiki I implemented has two levels of security. The "admin" is god, and can edit and delete any page. We have setup an "edit" password that enables those with "the magic word" to edit any page. Assuming the python fanantics don't subscribe to the list, the "authors" can be limited to the spuggers. If you are really concerned about the python fanatics, consider the wiki called "MoinMoin". It is written in (yuck) python. William > >What's the Wiki track record in this area? The lack of security, that >enables the bulletin board metaphor to work, concerns me. > >-Tim >*------------------------------------------------------------* >| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | >| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | >| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | >*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* >| Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | >*------------------------------------------------------------* >_____________________________________________________________ >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List >POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org >ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list >MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA >WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > From law at acm.org Sun Jun 15 10:45:14 2003 From: law at acm.org (lynn wilkins) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03061508451413.24288@maggie> After you install the Wiki what do I, a simple user, need know to participate in the new forum? -law On Sunday 15 June 2003 00:42, Andrew Sweger wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > > I think a SPUG Wiki could be good for: ideas for future talks, ideas for > > speakers to invite, mini reviews of recent talks, notices of > > other groups' meetings and upcoming conferences, cheap hotels for > > conferences (like my posts to the SPUG list for a $55 hotel for YAPC, > > which would be better preserved for easy access ona Wiki), and so forth. > > Let's give it a shot. I'm happy to set it up and host it. I'll just need > an appropriate name pointed at the right server (details in separate > email). From andrew at sweger.net Sun Jun 15 12:08:51 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <03061508451413.24288@maggie> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 2003, lynn wilkins wrote: > After you install the Wiki what do I, a simple user, need know to participate > in the new forum? If you're talking about the SPUG Wiki, an announcement will be made when it's ready. It will have details on where to go, etc. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From Marc.M.Adkins at Doorways.org Sun Jun 15 13:37:56 2003 From: Marc.M.Adkins at Doorways.org (Marc M. Adkins) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? +1 on using it as institutional memory for things like FAQs. That way newbie questions can be re-answered by an HTTP link to an existing page. The process might be to discuss once on the mailing list until an answer (or multiple answers) crystallizes and then move it (them) and subsequent discussion to the wiki, freeing up the mailing list for news. An email portal (address) to the wiki might make this easier, but it's not too hard without. -1 on things like announcements and news of various sorts. As noted elsewhere, the WIKI doesn't alert users to changes. Yes, they're available on the 'recent changes' page. But the 'newspaper delivered to your door' analogy is good, if it's news it should be on the list. mma From ingy at ttul.org Sun Jun 15 14:16:09 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: ; from MichaelRunningWolf@att.net on Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 08:46:31PM -0700 References: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030615121609.A32586@ttul.org> On 14/06/03 20:46 -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > SPUG-list-owner writes: > > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > >> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > >> > >> > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software > >> > is way cool! > >> > >> And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have > >> Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package > >> and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here. > >> > >> http://www.kwiki.org/ > >> -- > >> Andrew B. Sweger > > > > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes? > > [[Preface -- I know this is a tangent to the original post. Please > bear with me and reply to my points, not my divergence from the > original point.]] > > Call me old fashioned, but I have a *strong* preference for > discussions to continue via email or news. "Click, drag, move, mouse" > is significantly more annoying to me than using my home-key-based > news/email environment. A mouse is an effecient beginning input > device, but an inefficient advanced tool. (Don't believe it? Disable > your keyboard, but enable a window with a keyboard image in it, then > see how well you compose messages with a mouse.) Pure FUD. > WYSIWYG is a step backwards. Human labor is used to do that which the > computer can do better. > -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum Interesting quote, but what in the heck does WYSIWYG editing have to do with mouse-based GUI??? "If something sucks, fix it." -- Brian Ingerson 1) Use a text based browser. 2) I plan on implementing hot keys for wiki navigation, so that mouse usage can be minimal. 3) Wiki is not a replacement for mailing lists. They actually often work quite complimentary. If your ML has an archive, you can link wiki pages to mail threads too. 4) Don't knock until you've tried it. > I get that Wiki is an attempt at simple WYSIWYG, but it cuts off a > whole lineage of news reading tools and requires folks to navigate > themselves to the news rather than having the news come to them. In > that respect, Wiki is counter to much of the culture of news reading. > I get a newspaper delivered to my door, despite having a public > library 2 blocks away. Call me wasteful! It just fits in with my > routine, and I like my services to serve me, not me to cater to them. Sure. But you don't lobby against the usage of libraries, do you? > I think Wiki may be good for other things, however. But don't reinvent > the flat tire (a recognition that a wheel is many iterations later) > just to try a new technology. Use existing technology to compose, > deliver, and view the content. The energy you save could be invested > in the creativity of creating *content* not redeveloping *structure*. > > So, I'd prefer that we do *nog* explore Wiki for a *replacement* of > this discussion. But if Wiki could be a *mirror* of this by using a > SMTP or NNTP gateway, that would be better -- Add folks who perfer > Wiki, without cutting off folks who don't. (That seems to be how many > of the perl.org groups are. I read 'em with NNTP, but many folks read > them with HTTP.) > > End rant, > Michael Wolf > > P.S. I know my reply wasn't in direct response to the original post. > It just triggered somethin for me. For instance, I do *NOT* read the > newly created MOSS Wiki, but I *do* read email from the list. Call me > lazy, but it cuts me out from a portion of what's going on in that > community. Perhaps the net gain is better than the net loss, a > decision all communities or groups must make, but at some basic level, > I don't get Wiki. It seems to require that all posters be mini > WYSIWYG-webmasters-in-training and all that readers must continually > re-read content to discover what's changed. All seems like a waste of > human time for what computers do better. > > P.P.S. I guess I've asked for it indirectly, so I'll ask dirctly -- > Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email > lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite, > familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because > it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute > their favorite news/email reader and make the same point). Wiki is a way to refactor ideas over time. You can add to someone else's idea, but just as important, you can delete parts that are no longer relevant. It's a way for a community to collaboratively work through an issue and refine the findings to high signal, low noise. Mailing lists are important for duking it out, but in order for a casual reader to grok a thread, they need to read the whole thing. Wiki readers can just get right to the meat of a topic. I'm considering adding a feature to kwiki that will email recent changes to those who are interested. So you really can have the best of all worlds. Why don't you try participating in wiki culture for a while, before deciding whether you'd like it or not. I think you'll be surprised what a nice addition it is to SPUG collaboration. Cheers, Brian > An inquiring (underinformed) mind wants to know.... > > Yes, I have to admit my ignorance in order to satisfy my curiosity! > > -- > Michael R. Wolf > All mammals learn by playing! > MichaelRunningWolf@att.net > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org From ingy at ttul.org Sun Jun 15 14:22:22 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: <200306150838.h5F8cjd06750@catmanor.com>; from moonbeam@catmanor.com on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 01:38:45AM -0700 References: <200306150838.h5F8cjd06750@catmanor.com> Message-ID: <20030615122222.B32586@ttul.org> On 15/06/03 01:38 -0700, William Julien wrote: > > > > >So, I'd prefer that we do *nog* explore Wiki for a *replacement* of > >this discussion. But if Wiki could be a *mirror* of this by using a > >SMTP or NNTP gateway, that would be better -- Add folks who perfer > >Wiki, without cutting off folks who don't. (That seems to be how many > >of the perl.org groups are. I read 'em with NNTP, but many folks read > >them with HTTP.) > > > >End rant, > >Michael Wolf > > I would agree that a wiki would not be a replacement of this mail > list but I think would be a valuable enhacement. A person with > a particular problem can post their code to the wiki and foster > colabrative enhancement. Modern wiki's have full revision control and > very powerful search capabilities. We use a wiki at work to provide > a place for everyone to put all their bits of postit notes, scraps of > email, unwritten knowlege, tips, techniques, diagrams, and howtos. > > The original wiki was a product of an extreme programming project by Ward > Cunnimham of www.c2.com. I tried the code available from c2.com and I > found it very limiting. Instead I used a "patched" version of "UseModWiki" > called NeuroWiki. See http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PatchedScripts FWIW, Ward and I are considering collaborating an a project to reimplement his Wiki using the kwiki framework. It would work exactly as it currently does, but would be oh so much more extendable. And it would be available on CPAN. Cheers, Brian > I have setup my domain to be a wiki. See http:/www.catmanor.com > The page is dedicated to poems by T. S. Eloit. If you have any > poetry of you own, I encourage you to contribute. > > Wiki's are not necesssary linear like smtp or threaded like nntp. Any > page can reference any other page. In usemod, a click on the page name > will provide a reference to the page and all other pages that reference it. > > > > >P.S. I know my reply wasn't in direct response to the original post. > >It just triggered somethin for me. For instance, I do *NOT* read the > >newly created MOSS Wiki, but I *do* read email from the list. Call me > >lazy, but it cuts me out from a portion of what's going on in that > >community. Perhaps the net gain is better than the net loss, a > >decision all communities or groups must make, but at some basic level, > >I don't get Wiki. It seems to require that all posters be mini > >WYSIWYG-webmasters-in-training and all that readers must continually > >re-read content to discover what's changed. All seems like a waste of > >human time for what computers do better. > > On one click on "recent changes" you can get a list of all the wiki > pages that have been modified. You can do revision comparisons. > > > > >P.P.S. I guess I've asked for it indirectly, so I'll ask dirctly -- > >Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email > >lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite, > >familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because > >it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute > >their favorite news/email reader and make the same point). > > > >An inquiring (underinformed) mind wants to know.... > > I think the value is that of cooperative development with full version > control. I can post some code and anyone can enhance it. Unlike mail > and usenet, the lastest version is in one place. It is easy to perform > diffs of previous versions to see what has changed. Try that with nntp. > > > > >Yes, I have to admit my ignorance in order to satisfy my curiosity! > > Since the original wiki developed by Ward Cunninham, there have been > over 200 versions implemented in many languages. It is a big place > to explore and learn. > > William Julien _,'| _.-''``-...___..--'; > moonbeam@catmanor.com /, \'. _..-' , ,--...--''' > vi is my shepherd; < \ .`--''' ` /| > i shall not font. `-,;' ; ; ; > __...--'' __...--_..' .;.' > (,__....----''' (,..--'' > perl -e '( $ ,, $ ")=("a".."z")[0,-1]; print "sh", $ ","m\n";;";;"' > > > > >-- > >Michael R. Wolf > > All mammals learn by playing! > > MichaelRunningWolf@att.net > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > >POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > >ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > >MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > >WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 16 09:54:50 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Photos Message-ID: <20030616075450.A25698@timji.consultix-inc.com> Hullo folks, We've put some photos of yapc so far (and will be updating them as the conf goes) up here: http://www.fotango.com/cgi-bin/public_gallery.cgi?category=379&key= Leon -- Leon Brocard.............................http://www.astray.com/ scribot.................................http://www.scribot.com/ ... Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out _______________________________________________ yapc mailing list yapc@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc ----- End forwarded message ----- -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From jaygray at scn.org Mon Jun 16 15:09:31 2003 From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG: Are wikis hard to use? In-Reply-To: <03061508451413.24288@maggie> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun, 08:45:14, lynn wilkins said: > After you install the Wiki what do I, a simple user, need > to know to participate in the new forum? > -law As a reader, it works like a website: text, URLs, pictures. I'm not far into the learning curve, but it looks like a very simple HTML dialect -- bold, underline, italic, and auto-recognition of HTTP://. Wiki adds to this one special widget: [phoo-bhar] -- this, when clicked, takes the reader to the 'phoo-bhar' wiki page. Simple To learn how to write wiki pages is easy (I figured it out in around an hour, and I spent a lot of time reading the docs). Look at http://kwiki.llamacard.org/. These are the links: LlamaWiki ------> the default wiki page RecentChanges --> last-entry first list of changed files Preferences ----> Lets you tell (k)wiki what your name is Search window LlamaCard ------> link to http://llamacard.org. It's empty now, but when we start authoring content / borrowing wiki pages, it'll be interesting to read. KwikiHelpIndex -> the kwiki help index... I spent time reading through this, and picked up the rudimentary basics. It's really easy, even if you're not an author of scary CPAN modules (i.e. Ingy). Hope this helps. Jay Gray, Llama herder From jaygray at scn.org Mon Jun 16 15:17:31 2003 From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- Marc M. Adkins said: --- > +1 on using it as institutional memory for things like FAQs. > That way newbie questions can be re-answered by an HTTP > link to an existing page. +100 for the group sanity saved, if we had a 'stick wiki' (FYI, I avoided the stick riddle thread. But if there was a wiki...) From chuck.orr at attws.com Mon Jun 16 17:40:07 2003 From: chuck.orr at attws.com (Orr, Chuck (NOC)) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Message-ID: Hello All, I realize this is a rookie question, but I need a quick fix...or a pointer to the location where I can find a quick fix. I have a line that looks like this: $uniq - { map m|(^\w+)(\s)|,grep /^[A-Z]{4}MTA|^[A-Z]{4}MKT/,@facode }; If I wanted to eliminate the grep, which would make Tim Maher (of White Camel fame) happy, how would I do so? Thanks, Chuck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030616/dd91458e/attachment.htm From sthoenna at efn.org Mon Jun 16 18:30:59 2003 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:40:07 -0700, chuck.orr@attws.com wrote: >Hello All, >=20 >I realize this is a rookie question, but I need a quick fix...or a >pointer to the location where I can find a quick fix. I have a line >that looks like this: > >$uniq - { map m|(^\w+)(\s)|,grep /^[A-Z]{4}MTA|^[A-Z]{4}MKT/,@facode }; I assume $uniq is an object with subtraction overloaded to do something sensible when subtracting a hash ref :) Or maybe that was supposed to be =, not -. How about this (untested): $uniq = { map /(^[A-Z]{4}M(?:TA|KT)\w*)(\s)/, @facode }; From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Mon Jun 16 19:43:16 2003 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Message-ID: <200306170043.RAA29907@carios2.ca.boeing.com> > I realize this is a rookie question, but I need a quick fix...or a > pointer to the location where I can find a quick fix. I have a line > that looks like this: > $uniq - { map m|(^\w+)(\s)|,grep /^[A-Z]{4}MTA|^[A-Z]{4}MKT/,@facode }; > If I wanted to eliminate the grep, which would make Tim Maher (of White > Camel fame) happy, how would I do so? Hm, Tim doesn't like grep... I thought only Windows people scattered at the sound of that word. Maybe just if used in void context... like the subtraction you've shown :) -- Charles DeRykus From legrady at earthlink.net Mon Jun 16 20:32:04 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question In-Reply-To: <200306170043.RAA29907@carios2.ca.boeing.com> References: <200306170043.RAA29907@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <1055813479.1101.22.camel@desktop> That's not a void context... grep() returns the array which is the object of map(). The return value of map() is used as the key for an anonymous hash, which is then subtracted from $uniq. What is means to subtract a hash from a scalar is a mystery beyond the ken of mere programmers. It's the result of the subtraction which sees a void context and is discarded, but that doesn't affect map() or grep(). Tom Legrady On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 20:43, ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote: > > I realize this is a rookie question, but I need a quick fix...or a > > pointer to the location where I can find a quick fix. I have a line > > that looks like this: > > > $uniq - { map m|(^\w+)(\s)|,grep /^[A-Z]{4}MTA|^[A-Z]{4}MKT/,@facode }; > > If I wanted to eliminate the grep, which would make Tim Maher (of White > > Camel fame) happy, how would I do so? > > Maybe just if used in void context... like the subtraction > you've shown :) From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Mon Jun 16 20:58:14 2003 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Message-ID: <200306170158.SAA29942@carios2.ca.boeing.com> > That's not a void context... grep() returns the array which is the > object of map(). The return value of map() is used as the key for an > anonymous hash, which is then subtracted from $uniq. What is means to > subtract a hash from a scalar is a mystery beyond the ken of mere > programmers. It's the result of the subtraction which sees a void > context and is discarded, but that doesn't affect map() or grep(). I didn't say the context was void -- "Hm, Tim doesn't like grep... Maybe just if used in void context..." I was suggesting though that this might explain the perceived bias that was ascribed to Tim. Near violence can erupt in some quarters if map or grep or backticked commands are used in void context. Quick, Tim, straighten this mess out :) -- Charles DeRykus From legrady at earthlink.net Mon Jun 16 21:33:27 2003 From: legrady at earthlink.net (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question In-Reply-To: <200306170158.SAA29942@carios2.ca.boeing.com> References: <200306170158.SAA29942@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <1055817207.1102.27.camel@desktop> Oh definitely ... Have you seen the article on slashdot about modifying a game controller to shock the players? I'm coming up with a similar mod for keyboards, for just such situations. On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:58, ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote: > Near violence can erupt in some quarters if map or grep or > backticked commands are used in void context. From chuck.orr at attws.com Mon Jun 16 22:47:03 2003 From: chuck.orr at attws.com (Orr, Chuck (NOC)) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Message-ID: Yes, it is = not - So, many of you have identified that I cannot type. I have known this for years and in the past have tried to keep it to myself. The charade was ended today. However, only one person so far has offered an alternative to using grep and I am confident that there is more out there. I guess none of you have met my friends mroe and sl. Any other ideas that don't involve the differences between = and - would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help and humor, Chuck -----Original Message----- From: Orr, Chuck (NOC) [mailto:chuck.orr@attws.com] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:40 PM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question Hello All, I realize this is a rookie question, but I need a quick fix...or a pointer to the location where I can find a quick fix. I have a line that looks like this: $uniq - { map m|(^\w+)(\s)|,grep /^[A-Z]{4}MTA|^[A-Z]{4}MKT/,@facode }; If I wanted to eliminate the grep, which would make Tim Maher (of White Camel fame) happy, how would I do so? Thanks, Chuck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030616/b7b55cf4/attachment.htm From andrew at sweger.net Tue Jun 17 06:40:58 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:SPUG web site down temporarily Message-ID: In case anyone has noticed (or cares), two of the three "SeattlePerl" domains are out of order right now. Works: http://SeattlePerl.com/ Doesn't: http://SeattlePerl.org/ <-- basically the canonical domain http://SeattlePerl.net/ It's being worked on... I'm only mentioning it because I have a small role in triggering the problem. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Jun 17 22:46:09 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:Web site changed domains Message-ID: <20030617204609.A31596@timji.consultix-inc.com> The spug web-site is now at seattleperl.com, not seattleperl.org. After I return from YAPC, I'll update you on whether that change will be permanent. ======================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim(AT)timmaher.org | | JAWCAR ("Just Another White-Camel Award Recipient") | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug(AT)seattleperl.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.com | ======================================================= From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 10:52:27 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question Message-ID: Folks, Hopefully someone out there can give me a pointer here... I'm working on a project where I'm storing media (photos, sound files) in a database and serving them through a perl script. My image tags look like , which works fine. What I'm looking for advice on is that since this is a perl script browsers wont cache the result, so it wants to download the images again weither it is new or not. I can't find a way in the CGI module's header stuff to give a date or anything so the browser can decide weither it should be loaded from cache or from the server. Hope this makes some sence. Any help appreicated. :) Thanks, Peter Darley From aaron at activox.com Thu Jun 19 11:26:01 2003 From: aaron at activox.com (Aaron Salo) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> At 08:52 AM 6/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: > I'm working on a project where I'm storing media (photos, sound files) in a >database and serving them through a perl script. My image tags look like >, which works fine. What I'm looking for >advice on is that since this is a perl script browsers wont cache the >result, so it wants to download the images again weither it is new or not. Hi Peter, files belong in the *file system* data belongs in the *database* sorry, one of my pet peeves. forgive me in advance if this is one of those projects where these decisions were made for you and you're just trying to minimize the damage. seriously, if you store a pointer in the database to the image file, and leave the image file in the file system, and then roll up the IMG SRC tag in the page by deriving the path to the image from the db pointer, all normal browser caching mechanisms will perform as intended, thus averting the problem you're trying to correct. using your current method the browser cannot cache the stuff as you correctly point out, but by putting those images in the file system and rolling up those tags normally in your CGI output page this is no longer a problem. it has always seemed odd to me that people wish to store images in a database as blobs. why would you go through all the work to store, kick headers, emit streams of binary and contribute to the database equivalent of global warming (increased backup times, more overhead, etc) by bloating your tables with binary storage, when you can just keep it in the filesystem and store the information necessary to retrieve it from there? can someone tell me where I'm missing the point here?? hth aaron From spug at ifokr.org Thu Jun 19 11:43:48 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:00 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: <20030619164348.GD26599@ifokr.org> > > files belong in the *file system* > data belongs in the *database* > I agree with much of the rest of this comment. Apache is great at serving files, so why not let it serve the images directly. > this should be " instead of ' by the way. You can have perl include an 'expires' header for your CGI output, and then browsers will cache it. print header( -expires => +1d ); sets the result to be valid for 1 day, so browsers shouldn't re-check the file until tomorrow. Do a 'perldoc CGI' and look for the -expires option. You can specify dates/times in many different formats. -- Brian Hatch "There are 10 of us, all of family Systems and Zathras, each one named Zathras. Security Engineer Slight differences in how you http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ pronounce. You are seeing now?" Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030619/efdb4c00/attachment.bin From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Jun 19 11:48:27 2003 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 16:52, Peter Darley wrote: > I'm working on a project where I'm storing media (photos, sound files) in a > database and serving them through a perl script. My image tags look like > , which works fine. What I'm looking for > advice on is that since this is a perl script browsers wont cache the > result, so it wants to download the images again weither it is new or not. > I can't find a way in the CGI module's header stuff to give a date or > anything so the browser can decide weither it should be loaded from cache or > from the server. Hi Peter, Have a look at the headers the browsers are sending with their request. There should be one named If-Modified-Since. You can compare this date with the modified date of your image and return a 304 (Not Modified) status code instead of 200. This will cause the browser to use the cached image. Normally this happens automatically for images in the filesystem but you have to hand code it into CGI apps. You could also try setting the 'expires' option in CGI. From the man page: print $q->header(-type=>'image/gif',-expires=>'+3d'); That should allow the browser to cache it without an extra request. HTH, Simon. From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 11:56:48 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: Hi Aaron, A partial rebuttal :) I can see a lot of reasons to keep binary data in a database, some of which are: I want to have central data storage, meaning a single machine that servers all the data/files/etc. If I store stuff in the database I don't have to mess with other paths of data from my central storage to the web server(s). It may be easy to set up a nfs share or whatever (which isn't actually the case), but then I need to maintain twice as many services on the server, secure twice as many access points, and rely on systems that are harder to secure (NFS vs. database access). When performing backups I only have one thing to back up; the database. If data is stored in the FS and in the DB I have to back up both and it gets to be significantly more work backup and restore. I don't have to have extra functions/etc to work with/delete/whatever data. I can treat all data the same and have the same functions for working with them. There's nothing about binary data that is magically different from other data, so why have a whole second system to work with it? Database limits are far less restricting than file system limits. I don't know a lot about files systems, but it's my understanding that you are limited to the number of files in a single directory. I do know a lot about databases however, and I know that there's no problem storing millions and millions of records in a single table. If I exceeded the limits of the file system in a single directory I then have to start making trees of directories to hold all my files, which makes for a huge mess. I currently have directories for a system I wrote that didn't store stuff in the database, and I can't go into the directory and do a 'rm -rf *' because there are more files than rm can deal with. In general databases are far easier to work with. That's why people talk about 'making the file system work like a database' and never talk about 'making a database work like the file system'. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Aaron Salo Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:26 AM To: SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question At 08:52 AM 6/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: > I'm working on a project where I'm storing media (photos, sound files) in a >database and serving them through a perl script. My image tags look like >, which works fine. What I'm looking for >advice on is that since this is a perl script browsers wont cache the >result, so it wants to download the images again weither it is new or not. Hi Peter, files belong in the *file system* data belongs in the *database* sorry, one of my pet peeves. forgive me in advance if this is one of those projects where these decisions were made for you and you're just trying to minimize the damage. seriously, if you store a pointer in the database to the image file, and leave the image file in the file system, and then roll up the IMG SRC tag in the page by deriving the path to the image from the db pointer, all normal browser caching mechanisms will perform as intended, thus averting the problem you're trying to correct. using your current method the browser cannot cache the stuff as you correctly point out, but by putting those images in the file system and rolling up those tags normally in your CGI output page this is no longer a problem. it has always seemed odd to me that people wish to store images in a database as blobs. why would you go through all the work to store, kick headers, emit streams of binary and contribute to the database equivalent of global warming (increased backup times, more overhead, etc) by bloating your tables with binary storage, when you can just keep it in the filesystem and store the information necessary to retrieve it from there? can someone tell me where I'm missing the point here?? hth aaron _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 12:01:40 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619164348.GD26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: Brian, The problem with the expires thing is that I need to know beforehand when the file is going to change, and I can't know this. The system is to organize pictures coming out of a digital camera, and one of the functions is to spin the picture 90 degrees so it's oriented correctly if the camera was held on it's side. Since this could be done at any time I can't predict when the image will change. :( Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hatch Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:44 AM To: Aaron Salo Cc: SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question > > files belong in the *file system* > data belongs in the *database* > I agree with much of the rest of this comment. Apache is great at serving files, so why not let it serve the images directly. > this should be " instead of ' by the way. You can have perl include an 'expires' header for your CGI output, and then browsers will cache it. print header( -expires => +1d ); sets the result to be valid for 1 day, so browsers shouldn't re-check the file until tomorrow. Do a 'perldoc CGI' and look for the -expires option. You can specify dates/times in many different formats. -- Brian Hatch "There are 10 of us, all of family Systems and Zathras, each one named Zathras. Security Engineer Slight differences in how you http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ pronounce. You are seeing now?" Every message PGP signed From spug at ifokr.org Thu Jun 19 12:04:23 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: <20030619164348.GD26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: <20030619170423.GE26599@ifokr.org> > The problem with the expires thing is that I need to know beforehand when > the file is going to change, and I can't know this. The system is to > organize pictures coming out of a digital camera, and one of the functions > is to spin the picture 90 degrees so it's oriented correctly if the camera > was held on it's side. Since this could be done at any time I can't predict > when the image will change. :( So, you want the browser to cache the file until it changes, but you don't know when it's going to change. So, how do you expect the browser to know when it'll change? It's obviously going to need to check each time. Unless you're using a new "Psychic::Timestamp::Foretell" module I don't know about. -- Brian Hatch It takes 43 muscles to Systems and frown, and 17 to smile, Security Engineer but it doesn't take any http://www.onsight.com/ to just sit there with a dumb look on your face. Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030619/295ac06f/attachment.bin From spug at ifokr.org Thu Jun 19 12:06:33 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> References: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> Message-ID: <20030619170633.GF26599@ifokr.org> > Have a look at the headers the browsers are sending with their request. > > There should be one named If-Modified-Since. You can compare this date > with the modified date of your image and return a 304 (Not Modified) > status code instead of 200. This will cause the browser to use the > cached image. > > Normally this happens automatically for images in the filesystem but you > have to hand code it into CGI apps. Of course, this still requires that the CGI is being run, and that it queries the database to check the image timestamp. It's less overhead than actually grabbing and returning the image, but the browser still needs to query the image each time, and the CGI must run each time. -- Brian Hatch To strive, to seek, to find, Systems and and not to yield. Security Engineer http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030619/9cc4430f/attachment.bin From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:22 2003 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619170633.GF26599@ifokr.org> References: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> <20030619170633.GF26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: <1056043102.21144.177.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 18:06, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > > Have a look at the headers the browsers are sending with their request. > > > > There should be one named If-Modified-Since. You can compare this date > > with the modified date of your image and return a 304 (Not Modified) > > status code instead of 200. This will cause the browser to use the > > cached image. > > > > Normally this happens automatically for images in the filesystem but you > > have to hand code it into CGI apps. > > Of course, this still requires that the CGI is being run, and that it > queries the database to check the image timestamp. It's less overhead > than actually grabbing and returning the image, but the browser still > needs to query the image each time, and the CGI must run each time. Very true. I did also suggest the '-expires' header as you did although the 304 route provides better granularity, particularly if you want the browser to always have the latest version of the file. It's a trade off between computation and bandwidth. If you're moving large files, it's worth the computational overhead to save repeatedly sending the file. If it's tiny navigation gifs then you might just as well send the file anyway. As always, TIMTOWTDI :) Simon. From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Jun 19 12:22:05 2003 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056043325.21040.181.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 18:01, Peter Darley wrote: > The problem with the expires thing is that I need to know beforehand when > the file is going to change, and I can't know this. Of course, that's one reason why storing files in a filesystem is a good idea, it's a very low cost operation to find the modified time ;-) Simon. From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 12:33:43 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> Message-ID: Simon, That's exactly what I was looking for. :) So, just to confirm, I would get this from the post or get request, compare it to the timestamp of my image, and either return the image as normal or return a header with status of 304 and no associated data. A couple of questions: I can't find a way to get this info out of CGI. It seems like the documentation isn't complete for CGI... I use the function virtual_host() from CGI, but I'll be darned if I can find any documentation of it, and I have a feeling that there will be a similar function to get the if-modified-since request header. I'm sure I'm just missing something obvious; if someone could direct me to some documentation that would be grand. The second question is, does anyone know if this header is filled with the date from the browser, or does it store a server generated date from the returned header or something? What will happen if the browser and server don't agree on the time? Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: Simon Wilcox [mailto:essuu@ourshack.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:48 AM To: Peter Darley Cc: SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 16:52, Peter Darley wrote: > I'm working on a project where I'm storing media (photos, sound files) in a > database and serving them through a perl script. My image tags look like > , which works fine. What I'm looking for > advice on is that since this is a perl script browsers wont cache the > result, so it wants to download the images again weither it is new or not. > I can't find a way in the CGI module's header stuff to give a date or > anything so the browser can decide weither it should be loaded from cache or > from the server. Hi Peter, Have a look at the headers the browsers are sending with their request. There should be one named If-Modified-Since. You can compare this date with the modified date of your image and return a 304 (Not Modified) status code instead of 200. This will cause the browser to use the cached image. Normally this happens automatically for images in the filesystem but you have to hand code it into CGI apps. You could also try setting the 'expires' option in CGI. From the man page: print $q->header(-type=>'image/gif',-expires=>'+3d'); That should allow the browser to cache it without an extra request. HTH, Simon. From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 12:41:42 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619170423.GE26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: Brian, It was my assumption, born out by what Simon said, that there was some mechanism for the browser to ask if the file has changed. Obviously Apache does this already and checks timestamps on files to see if it should send a new version. It turns out there is a mechanism to do this, the 304 no change header and the if-modified-since request header item. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hatch Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:04 AM To: Peter Darley Cc: Aaron Salo; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question > The problem with the expires thing is that I need to know beforehand when > the file is going to change, and I can't know this. The system is to > organize pictures coming out of a digital camera, and one of the functions > is to spin the picture 90 degrees so it's oriented correctly if the camera > was held on it's side. Since this could be done at any time I can't predict > when the image will change. :( So, you want the browser to cache the file until it changes, but you don't know when it's going to change. So, how do you expect the browser to know when it'll change? It's obviously going to need to check each time. Unless you're using a new "Psychic::Timestamp::Foretell" module I don't know about. -- Brian Hatch It takes 43 muscles to Systems and frown, and 17 to smile, Security Engineer but it doesn't take any http://www.onsight.com/ to just sit there with a dumb look on your face. Every message PGP signed From aaron at activox.com Thu Jun 19 12:46:08 2003 From: aaron at activox.com (Aaron Salo) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030619104608.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> At 09:56 AM 6/19/2003 -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > A partial rebuttal :) Much appreciated. I am open-minded to changing my opinion, just have never heard a compelling argument to do so. Let the discussion begin! > I want to have central data storage, meaning a single machine that servers >all the data/files/etc. If I store stuff in the database I don't have to >mess with other paths of data from my central storage to the web server(s). >It may be easy to set up a nfs share or whatever (which isn't actually the >case), but then I need to maintain twice as many services on the server, >secure twice as many access points, and rely on systems that are harder to >secure (NFS vs. database access). Understood, hypothetically, but in the instance we're talking about I'm having trouble getting traction here. The only way you could gain a benefit from this would be to eliminate the file system based content entirely, thereby removing the need for a place to store files completely. We are talking about a web application, right? Are you also going to store all HTML static content in the database as CLOBs? What about your CGI scripts? Probably not unless you are the most awesome mod_rewrite god of all times and you're dynamically generating your perl scripts from database calls and mod_rewrite skullduggery of Damianesque proportions. That stuff is in a filesystem. So by definition you already have a filesystem and a database. Even in a load balanced distributed front end system with a central database, you either have a central place for your static content to reside (NFS) or you're replicating it out to each of the front end systems from a staging server. Either way you have content in a filesystem already. Putting the images into the filesystem where they can be served up by apache along with the HTML and other static content is no stretch, and no increase in services or security concerns beyond the status quo. The only exception would be if you had a fully database driven system with ALL content in the database and NO content in a file system, and that is highly unlikely. Even fully dynamic CMS systems have content in file systems, even if that content consists of templates. > When performing backups I only have one thing to back up; the database. >If data is stored in the FS and in the DB I have to back up both and it gets >to be significantly more work backup and restore. Not sure I agree with you here, given the fact that if you're a prudent sort you're backing up your filesystem and your database anyhow, your server has files on it you're already backing up. I hope. If you need to restore, because you had disk failure and you need to get some missing files, do you want to go through the entire database volume and find your restore point to get those blobs back, or do you want to granularly (word?) untar the missing files out of the filesystem backup? > I don't have to have extra functions/etc to work with/delete/whatever >data. I can treat all data the same and have the same functions for working >with them. There's nothing about binary data that is magically different >from other data, so why have a whole second system to work with it? Actually, depending on your database, there are some arcane and proprietary ops you need to do to work with blobs in a general sense. Let's skip that for now. I don't >know a lot about files systems, but it's my understanding that you are >limited to the number of files in a single directory. I do know a lot about >databases however, and I know that there's no problem storing millions and >millions of records in a single table. If I exceeded the limits of the file >system in a single directory I then have to start making trees of >directories to hold all my files, which makes for a huge mess. I currently >have directories for a system I wrote that didn't store stuff in the >database, and I can't go into the directory and do a 'rm -rf *' because >there are more files than rm can deal with. I'll presume that you are being the devil's advocate here and have your tongue firmly in cheek. > In general databases are far easier to work with. That's why people talk >about 'making the file system work like a database' and never talk about >'making a database work like the file system'. I have a hammer and a screwdriver. The reason why is that they are suited to different tasks. Although I have occasionally used the handle of a screwdriver to pound in a nail, or used the blade to pry one out, the hammer is best suited to those jobs. I don't remember ever wishing that I had a "hammer that worked like a screwdriver". That's why I have both. From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 12:47:52 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619170633.GF26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: Brian, In this case the CGI script takes almost no CPU and well under a second of real time to execute, but then I'm sending out close to a meg of data over my crappy 128K up DSL, so not having to send the image again would be a significant win. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: Brian Hatch [mailto:spug@ifokr.org] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM To: Simon Wilcox Cc: Peter Darley; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question > Have a look at the headers the browsers are sending with their request. > > There should be one named If-Modified-Since. You can compare this date > with the modified date of your image and return a 304 (Not Modified) > status code instead of 200. This will cause the browser to use the > cached image. > > Normally this happens automatically for images in the filesystem but you > have to hand code it into CGI apps. Of course, this still requires that the CGI is being run, and that it queries the database to check the image timestamp. It's less overhead than actually grabbing and returning the image, but the browser still needs to query the image each time, and the CGI must run each time. -- Brian Hatch To strive, to seek, to find, Systems and and not to yield. Security Engineer http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ Every message PGP signed From jmates at sial.org Thu Jun 19 13:12:45 2003 From: jmates at sial.org (Jeremy Mates) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: <20030619170423.GE26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: <20030619181245.GC12454@darkness.sial.org> * Peter Darley > It turns out there is a mechanism to do this, the 304 no change header > and the if-modified-since request header item. Another option would be to make the image URL unique to the image (and any transformations done), then place a caching proxy in front of the webserver running the perl scripts. If the image content does not change, nor does the user rotate the image, subsequent requests should hit the proxy. Some proxies can also do gzip compression, which may save on bandwidth. From spug at ifokr.org Thu Jun 19 13:34:17 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: <1056041307.21144.170.camel@dozer.city.digitalcraftsmen.net> Message-ID: <20030619183417.GL26599@ifokr.org> > So, just to confirm, I would get this from the post or get request, compare > it to the timestamp of my image, and either return the image as normal or > return a header with status of 304 and no associated data. yup. > A couple of questions: I can't find a way to get this info out of CGI. It > seems like the documentation isn't complete for CGI... $something = $cgi->http('header-i-am-interested-in'); So you'd want $rawmod = $cgi->http('If-Modified-Since'); I'm sure it's in the CGI man page somewhere. -- Brian Hatch Being a UNIX administrator Systems and is not an entry level Security Engineer skill, but it can be an http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ exit level skill. Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030619/083e59f4/attachment.bin From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 13:46:20 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20030619104608.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: Aaron, Good points... It's true that I don't store my CGI scripts in the database. :) I do however use CVS to distribute my scripts to the web servers. I wasn't thinking about these when I was talking about data. I guess I think of the system as having two components, scripts and data. I don't have any static content that's not stored in the database. So, I guess I've got two things to backup (The CVS Repository which should really be stored in a database too, and the database), which is still better than having three things to back up (CVS, Database, File System stored data) I don't know about you, but when I get an error on a drive I throw it out and get a new one. :) I don't really plan for losing part of the data on a drive, so I only am prepared to deal with recovering entire machines at once. It is easier to pull a file from a .tar than restore an entire database into a temp space so you can pull out one image, but I do far more backups than restores, so it seems like a good trade off to me. I'm not sure what your devils advocate remark is referencing. Which part do you disagree with? That file systems have limits to number of files in a directory? That I have directories with too many files in them to do a rm -rf *? That you can have millions of records in a database table? That it's a pain in the butt to have to deal with trees of directories to store files that really should be in the same place? I believe that all of these are true, with the possible exception of the limited number of files in a single directory, which is just something I've been told. I wasn't being toung in cheek. I understand what you're saying about the hammer and screwdriver, but I think we're talking more about hand cranked drills vs. power drills. Both the file system and the database are tools for organizing and manipulating data. I never work with a database and think, "If only the db would do thing X that file systems do", but often when I'm looking for files in the file system, screwing with piping file names and data round to grep or whatnot, I think "If only I could write a nice query to get this information it would make my life so much easier!" What are the benefits to storing the data in the file system, other than the two you mentioned (it's easier to restore partial backups, don't have to mess with telling a browser that a file has changed because Apache will take care of it)? These two don't seem so compelling to me, but I'm sure there are benefits that I don't know about. I admit that I'm far more familiar with databases than I am with unix (or windows or macos) system tools, so I find it far easier to work within. I concede that I might find the system tools/file system rout as, or more, satisfying if I was more familiar with them, but there's a lot of value in using what you're comfortable with. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Aaron Salo Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:46 AM To: SPUG Subject: RE: SPUG:CGI header question At 09:56 AM 6/19/2003 -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > A partial rebuttal :) Much appreciated. I am open-minded to changing my opinion, just have never heard a compelling argument to do so. Let the discussion begin! > I want to have central data storage, meaning a single machine that servers >all the data/files/etc. If I store stuff in the database I don't have to >mess with other paths of data from my central storage to the web server(s). >It may be easy to set up a nfs share or whatever (which isn't actually the >case), but then I need to maintain twice as many services on the server, >secure twice as many access points, and rely on systems that are harder to >secure (NFS vs. database access). Understood, hypothetically, but in the instance we're talking about I'm having trouble getting traction here. The only way you could gain a benefit from this would be to eliminate the file system based content entirely, thereby removing the need for a place to store files completely. We are talking about a web application, right? Are you also going to store all HTML static content in the database as CLOBs? What about your CGI scripts? Probably not unless you are the most awesome mod_rewrite god of all times and you're dynamically generating your perl scripts from database calls and mod_rewrite skullduggery of Damianesque proportions. That stuff is in a filesystem. So by definition you already have a filesystem and a database. Even in a load balanced distributed front end system with a central database, you either have a central place for your static content to reside (NFS) or you're replicating it out to each of the front end systems from a staging server. Either way you have content in a filesystem already. Putting the images into the filesystem where they can be served up by apache along with the HTML and other static content is no stretch, and no increase in services or security concerns beyond the status quo. The only exception would be if you had a fully database driven system with ALL content in the database and NO content in a file system, and that is highly unlikely. Even fully dynamic CMS systems have content in file systems, even if that content consists of templates. > When performing backups I only have one thing to back up; the database. >If data is stored in the FS and in the DB I have to back up both and it gets >to be significantly more work backup and restore. Not sure I agree with you here, given the fact that if you're a prudent sort you're backing up your filesystem and your database anyhow, your server has files on it you're already backing up. I hope. If you need to restore, because you had disk failure and you need to get some missing files, do you want to go through the entire database volume and find your restore point to get those blobs back, or do you want to granularly (word?) untar the missing files out of the filesystem backup? > I don't have to have extra functions/etc to work with/delete/whatever >data. I can treat all data the same and have the same functions for working >with them. There's nothing about binary data that is magically different >from other data, so why have a whole second system to work with it? Actually, depending on your database, there are some arcane and proprietary ops you need to do to work with blobs in a general sense. Let's skip that for now. I don't >know a lot about files systems, but it's my understanding that you are >limited to the number of files in a single directory. I do know a lot about >databases however, and I know that there's no problem storing millions and >millions of records in a single table. If I exceeded the limits of the file >system in a single directory I then have to start making trees of >directories to hold all my files, which makes for a huge mess. I currently >have directories for a system I wrote that didn't store stuff in the >database, and I can't go into the directory and do a 'rm -rf *' because >there are more files than rm can deal with. I'll presume that you are being the devil's advocate here and have your tongue firmly in cheek. > In general databases are far easier to work with. That's why people talk >about 'making the file system work like a database' and never talk about >'making a database work like the file system'. I have a hammer and a screwdriver. The reason why is that they are suited to different tasks. Although I have occasionally used the handle of a screwdriver to pound in a nail, or used the blade to pry one out, the hammer is best suited to those jobs. I don't remember ever wishing that I had a "hammer that worked like a screwdriver". That's why I have both. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Thu Jun 19 13:50:10 2003 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619183417.GL26599@ifokr.org> Message-ID: Brian, There it is in the documentation, right under virtual_host() which I didn't see earlier either. Thanks to everyone for their help. As always, you guys rock. :) Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hatch Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:34 AM To: Peter Darley Cc: Simon Wilcox; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG:CGI header question > So, just to confirm, I would get this from the post or get request, compare > it to the timestamp of my image, and either return the image as normal or > return a header with status of 304 and no associated data. yup. > A couple of questions: I can't find a way to get this info out of CGI. It > seems like the documentation isn't complete for CGI... $something = $cgi->http('header-i-am-interested-in'); So you'd want $rawmod = $cgi->http('If-Modified-Since'); I'm sure it's in the CGI man page somewhere. -- Brian Hatch Being a UNIX administrator Systems and is not an entry level Security Engineer skill, but it can be an http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ exit level skill. Every message PGP signed From cpw at catenoid.com Thu Jun 19 15:28:46 2003 From: cpw at catenoid.com (Chris Whip) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> Message-ID: <20030619202846.GA9201@drizzle.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 09:56:48AM -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > Database limits are far less restricting than file system limits. I don't > know a lot about files systems, but it's my understanding that you are > limited to the number of files in a single directory. This is mostly untrue for modern operating systems. I do know a lot about > databases however, and I know that there's no problem storing millions and > millions of records in a single table. If I exceeded the limits of the file > system in a single directory I then have to start making trees of > directories to hold all my files, which makes for a huge mess. I currently > have directories for a system I wrote that didn't store stuff in the > database, and I can't go into the directory and do a 'rm -rf *' because > there are more files than rm can deal with. I've seen this problem, and the issue wasn't with rm or the file system. It was with the shell. It runs out of space to expand *. Solutions I've used include deleting with ls and xargs, find, and perl. This was about four years ago now. It may have gotten better. If anyone knows why shells don't/didn't do dynamic allocation of memory for big * expansions, I'd be curious. >In general databases are far easier to work with. Well, no. But you can do queries, and use transactions. It's a richer model. That has benefits and costs. -- Chris Whip From spug at ifokr.org Thu Jun 19 16:09:14 2003 From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619202846.GA9201@drizzle.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20030619092601.01217dd0@mail.activox.com> <20030619202846.GA9201@drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20030619210914.GQ26599@ifokr.org> > This was about four years ago now. It may have gotten better. If anyone knows > why shells don't/didn't do dynamic allocation of memory for big * expansions, > I'd be curious. Denial of service. You don't want processes taking up all the memory on a machine. And there are many non-shell workarounds: $ find . -maxdepth 1 -print | xargs -n 100 -P 20 rm Would run 20 copies of rm simultaneously, with 100 files to be deleted at a time. Drop the '-maxdepth 1' if you want it to recurse all subdirs too. Now many filesystems do slow down as your directory gets too big. However the kernel also should be caching in memory those files that are accessed most recently, so those should be faster to respond anyway. -- Brian Hatch I admire your bad Systems and qualities and I Security Engineer wouldn't have you http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ part with a single one Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030619/bdef2180/attachment.bin From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Jun 19 16:42:44 2003 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:CGI header question In-Reply-To: <20030619202846.GA9201@drizzle.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Chris Whip wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 09:56:48AM -0700, Peter Darley wrote: > > Database limits are far less restricting than file system limits. I don't > > know a lot about files systems, but it's my understanding that you are > > limited to the number of files in a single directory. > > This is mostly untrue for modern operating systems. My understanding is that the ext2 filesystem on Linux has a practical limit after which it switches from a tree search to a linear search and the performance goes through the floor. Sadly I don't remember what the limit is and I'd be interested to hear if that is still the case. Simon. From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 20 15:07:31 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian avail for Corp. Visits, 6/30-7/2 Message-ID: <20030620130731.A2217@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Dr. Damian Conway, celebrated OOP-meister, Perl-6 Architect, and writer of *really cool Modules* with +scary Perl code+ is coming to Seattle! As of this writing, he's got some availability during the 6/30-7/3 period for corporate visits, to give highly entertaining yet educational talks, to engage in technical consultations, to answer questions on Perl 5 and Perl 6, and more! I highly recommend his services to you. He's a uniquely talented guy with a wealth of knowledge and a charming personality, whose visit to your company could really boost employee morale during these difficult times. For more details on the content of "corporate visits", please see the attached note from The Damian himself. Parties interested in booking Damian for periods of one hour or more should contact tim@teachmeperl.com. -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* -------------- next part -------------- What's a Corporate Visit? Pretty much whatever the paying customer wants. I can give inspirational and/or mind-altering talks to the troops (e.g. extended versions of SelfGOL or Quantum::Superpositions), I can teach practical half-day or day-long courses, I can do Q&A or brainstorming sessions, discuss programming techniques, lecture on presentation/communication techniques, advise on software engineering problems and solutions, take people very deeply into Perl 6, and into the principles of good design we're attempting to apply to its development, run master-classes in coding and algorithmic design, talk them through my own mental processes as I design and code ad-lib programs, bring a unique perspective to code reviews or design sessions, and tell scandalous stories about the leaders of the Perl community. I can be a reviewer, a reference, or a resource. But I suspect that I'm *best* used as a de-furrower of the en-rutted mind. That is, to shake a programming team up mentally, throw them off balance, wake them to different ways of looking at the world, of thinking about programming, challenge their assumptions and expectations, help them regain that sense of wonder and discovery than first drew them into IT. It might be by pushing their limits in my Advanced Module Development class, or by showing them the remarkable elegance with which we're fitting the pieces of Perl 6 together, or just in the simple act of inventing on the spur of the moment a cleaner way to code a particular loop. Whatever it takes to bounce them out of their everyday grind, and get them excited about their work again. It sounds a bit nebulous, I know, but it really works. Companies like Morgan Stanley and Amazon.com have me do a day or two of that kind of training every time I visit them, and generally rate it higher than anything else I do for them. -Damian Conway From pudge at pobox.com Wed Jun 25 10:30:39 2003 From: pudge at pobox.com (Chris Nandor) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian on July 2 Message-ID: Is this still on? -- Chris Nandor pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/ Open Source Development Network pudge@osdn.com http://osdn.com/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Jun 25 19:30:14 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Tim's YAPC talks on-line now Message-ID: <20030625173014.A12609@timji.consultix-inc.com> I'm slowly putting my materials on-line from the 4 talks I gave at last-week's YAPC. SPUGsters will be especially interested in "5+ Years of SPUGgery", which looks back on SPUG's history and finally reveals the *real reason* why it's the biggest and best Perl group in the "New World". You'll find that and more at teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From asimjalis at acm.org Thu Jun 26 12:40:04 2003 From: asimjalis at acm.org (Asim Jalis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Tim's YAPC talks on-line now In-Reply-To: <20030625173014.A12609@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030625173014.A12609@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030626174004.GA37777@wokkil.pair.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 05:30:14PM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > I'm slowly putting my materials on-line from the 4 talks I gave at > last-week's YAPC. SPUGsters will be especially interested > in "5+ Years of SPUGgery", which looks back on SPUG's history and > finally reveals the *real reason* why it's the biggest and best Perl > group in the "New World". > > You'll find that and more at teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html I just saw the slides: That's a spugging good talk, Tim. Asim From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Jun 26 13:07:57 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Tim's YAPC talks on-line now In-Reply-To: <20030626174004.GA37777@wokkil.pair.com> References: <20030625173014.A12609@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030626174004.GA37777@wokkil.pair.com> Message-ID: <20030626110757.A15499@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 01:40:04PM -0400, Asim Jalis wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 05:30:14PM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > > I'm slowly putting my materials on-line from the 4 talks I gave at > > last-week's YAPC. SPUGsters will be especially interested > > in "5+ Years of SPUGgery", which looks back on SPUG's history and > > finally reveals the *real reason* why it's the biggest and best Perl > > group in the "New World". > > > > You'll find that and more at teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html > > I just saw the slides: That's a spugging good talk, Tim. > > Asim That's nice to hear, from a reSPUGted SPUGster like you 8-} Glad you liked it! -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com Thu Jun 26 14:49:19 2003 From: christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com (Cantrall, Christopher W) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian on July 2 and call for North Sound carpooling. Message-ID: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87046D@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com> Tim's very good about getting bad news out, (Hmm, that doesn't sound right.) so I'd assume it's on. Right up till the night in question, when you're the only one in the lobby at Safeco. Is anyone interested in carpooling from Everett/Lynnwood/Marysville/Canada? I'd be willing to drive, but some company would be nice. ____________________________________________ Chris Cantrall Structural Engineer, 767 Fuselage, Boeing Christopher.W.Cantrall@Boeing.com http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=Louis_Wu chris@cantrall.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nandor [mailto:pudge@pobox.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:31 AM > To: spug-list@mail.pm.org > Subject: SPUG:Damian on July 2 > > > Is this still on? > > -- > Chris Nandor pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/ > Open Source Development Network pudge@osdn.com http://osdn.com/ > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > > From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Jun 26 16:37:49 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:July/Aug Mtgs Message-ID: <20030626143749.B16011@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Remember that next week's meeting is on the 1st Wednesday, 7/2, not the 3rd Tuesday, as usual. (We'll resume our normal schedule in August.) Please take advantage of this situation by inviting your friends who are usually otherwise occupied on Tuesdays to attend this meeting. Also, FYI Ingy will be our speaker on 8/19, talking about his (very impressive) new CGI::Kwiki module. Hope to see you all next Wednesday! -Tim July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting ----------------------------------------------------- Title: "Small Miracles" Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway, Perl 6 Team, OOP Author, etc. Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St. Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public. Info: http://seattleperl.org/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities --------------------------------- The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time (5:30-5:45pm is recommended). Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the speaker's table. ====================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim@timmaher.org | | SPUG Founder & Leader spug@seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group www.seattleperl.org | ====================================================== From jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com Fri Jun 27 02:44:59 2003 From: jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com (Joe Devlin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Compiling source of a package: How To? Message-ID: <200306270044.59942.jdevlin@stadiumdistrict.com> I am trying to install a perl module XML::LibXML which requires the the updated version of libxml2. I tried to update to the latestest version with the 'rpm -U' command. so tried this: rpm -U ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/i386/RedHat/RPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.i386.rpm and found error: failed dependencies: libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by libxml2-2.5.7-3 libpthread.so.0(GLIBC_2.3.2) is needed by libxml2-2.5.7-3 libxml2 = 2.4.23 is needed by libxml2-devel-2.4.23-91 I googled for error messages like this and found that I should try compiling the source. so I made a wild guess and tried this: rpm -bb ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/SRPMS/SRPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm and got the response: File ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/SRPMS/SRPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm does not appear to be a specfile. My question is, how do I compile the source for libxml2 (for that matter, any package)? Joe Devlin ------------------------------------------------------- From adamm at wazamatta.com Fri Jun 27 10:28:33 2003 From: adamm at wazamatta.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: [OFFTOPIC] Re: SPUG:Compiling source of a package: How To? In-Reply-To: <200306270044.59942.jdevlin@stadiumdistrict.com> References: <200306270044.59942.jdevlin@stadiumdistrict.com> Message-ID: <3EFC62A1.80702@wazamatta.com> Hello! This is a package management issue, so sorry if I drift offtopic in my response. Joe Devlin wrote: > I am trying to install a perl module XML::LibXML which requires the > the updated version of libxml2. > > I tried to update to the latestest version with the 'rpm -U' command. > > so tried this: > rpm -U > ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/i386/RedHat/RPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.i386.rpm You went to the right place (rpmfind.net) but 'rawhide' is Redhat's development tree. These packages often break dependencies by requiring other rawhide-specific RPMs. Find the 'libxml2' module appropriate for your exact architecture (Mandrake, Redhat 9, Redhat 8.0, etc.) at your distro's site or rpmfind.net. > and found > error: failed dependencies: > libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by libxml2-2.5.7-3 > libpthread.so.0(GLIBC_2.3.2) is needed by libxml2-2.5.7-3 > libxml2 = 2.4.23 is needed by libxml2-devel-2.4.23-91 > > I googled for error messages like this and found that I should try compiling > the source. You probably don't have to compile this package from source, but see below for how to do it. > so I made a wild guess and tried this: > rpm -bb > ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/SRPMS/SRPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm > > and got the response: > File > ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/rawhide/1.0/SRPMS/SRPMS/libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm does > not appear to be a specfile. > > My question is, how do I compile the source for libxml2 > (for that matter, any package)? If you have the src.rpm, you can do rpm --rebuild libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm or rpmbuild --rebuild libxml2-2.5.7-3.src.rpm if you have a newer version of Redhat GNU/Linux (like 8.0 or 9). Tarballs usually include an INSTALL or README file explaining how to compile them. I'd check out http://www.rpm.org to get an overview and tips on managing RPMs. I'd also recommend apt4rpm, a wrapper for rpm that finds and installs dependencies automatically. It *greatly* simplifies package management. http://apt4rpm.sourceforge.net/ is the home page, http://freshrpms.net/ has Redhat 7.3, 8.0, and 9-specific apt binaries built that point to the correct files. Good luck! -- Adam Monsen From damian at conway.org Fri Jun 27 16:10:57 2003 From: damian at conway.org (Damian Conway) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian on July 2 and call for North Sound carpooling. In-Reply-To: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87046D@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87046D@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <3EFCB2E1.3080300@conway.org> Christopher W Cantrall wrote: >>Is this still on? > > Tim's very good about getting bad news out, (Hmm, that doesn't sound right.) > so I'd assume it's on. Right up till the night in question, when you're the > only one in the lobby at Safeco. I'm certainly going to *be* in Seattle next week, so I'll definitely be one of those standing in the Safeco lobby. ;-) Damian From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 27 19:36:23 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? Message-ID: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Crikey! Who's that fair dinkum Aussie I see approaching across the billabong? Ain't he a little beauty! Just look at those bulgy muscles, shiny coat, and wonderfully convoluted brains! It's none other than our good friend and Guru, "The Damian", who will be arriving at SeaTac tomorrow evening. I'll be driving down from Ballard to collect him and drop him at his downtown hotel, so I figure we might as well make a SPUGly party out of it! So here's the deal: anybody who wants to come along check with me in advance for carpool-seating availability, and then show up at my house (1753 NW 62nd St., 98107) by 5:30pm, and we'll get The Damian together, and possibly have some dinner and drinks afterwards (although be forewarned, the Big D, who will be on East-coast time and possibly cranky 8-}, may beg off a bit early). If anybody wants to meet up with us at the airport, he'll be arriving on American 2889 from Dallas, slated for 6:30pm, but of course you can't exactly wait at the gate these days; on the other hand, he'll have checked baggage, so it's probably best to meet us at the carousel. If we know far enough in advance, I'll announce our wining/dining location to the list, so others might try to meet up with us there. I'm guessing that the Rock Bottom tavern on 5th and University migiht be a suitable location, but I'm not sure what hotel Damian's booked in yet. What say you on that point, Mate? D'ya reckon you'll be in that part of downtown, like last time? -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Jun 27 20:09:13 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> > > I'm guessing that the Rock Bottom tavern on 5th and University > migiht be a suitable location, but I'm not sure what hotel > Damian's booked in yet. > > What say you on that point, Mate? D'ya reckon you'll be in > that part of downtown, like last time? Damian tells me he'll be staying near the Key Arena, so can somebody recommend a good geekly restaurant in that vicinity for a SPUGly rendezvous around 7:15pm Saturday ? -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From jimfl at tensegrity.net Fri Jun 27 20:26:37 2003 From: jimfl at tensegrity.net (Jim Flanagan) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > Damian tells me he'll be staying near the Key Arena, so > can somebody recommend a good geekly restaurant in that > vicinity for a SPUGly rendezvous around 7:15pm Saturday ? Mediterranean Kitchen. Garlic for Geeks. -- ::jimfl http://jimfl.tensegrity.net mailto:jimfl%40t%65ns%65gr%69ty.n%65t From m3047 at inwa.net Fri Jun 27 20:47:51 2003 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? Message-ID: >> >> I'm guessing that the Rock Bottom tavern on 5th and University >> migiht be a suitable location, but I'm not sure what hotel >> Damian's booked in yet. >> >> What say you on that point, Mate? D'ya reckon you'll be in >> that part of downtown, like last time? > >Damian tells me he'll be staying near the Key Arena, so can somebody >recommend a good geekly restaurant in that vicinity for a SPUGly >rendezvous around 7:15pm Saturday ? > Wait a sec, was that "geekly" or "greekly"? No matter: The Blob is gone. Of course, Paul's homage to plastic soldiers and bic lighters has arisen in its place... or near enough. Well, lessee... there is of course the Starlight Lounge (or whatever that is), obviously. Or, the Tiki (or whatever) 80s retro lounge. Or, the pizza place at the top of the counterbalance (or any number of alternatives... easy hiking if you make it up the hill). Afraid to say, he's in the middle of one of those gentrified slums... Not sure it was to begin with, but now there's just the former armory and wotnot... terrorist magnets all, I'm sure... Nawwwp, I am *not* going to the Melting Pot, or anything in close proximity to it. Best bet is to beat a hasty retreat into Belltown... uncertain ground. I recall some pizza warehouse kinda place from my childhood, which appears to still be there. Well, there's the DogHouse nee Hurricane... a true Seattle landmark and the stuff of detective novels. How about grilling steaks in a park? You know if you bring a kite, you will not be busted for drinking from an open container... don't ask me how I know! -- FWM m3047@inwa.net From SEYMOUR at gluon.npl.washington.edu Fri Jun 27 21:21:32 2003 From: SEYMOUR at gluon.npl.washington.edu (SEYMOUR@gluon.npl.washington.edu) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? Message-ID: <030627192132.2520789f@gluon.npl.washington.edu> Won Tup Thai is quite pleasant. On Mercer, a little west of Queen Anne itself. --dick From damian at conway.org Fri Jun 27 22:08:34 2003 From: damian at conway.org (Damian Conway) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <3EFD06B2.8070201@conway.org> Jim Flanagan wrote: > Mediterranean Kitchen. Garlic for Geeks. We have a winner! :-) Damian From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Jun 28 11:11:01 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? Message-ID: <20030628091101.A22639@timji.consultix-inc.com> SPUGgles, In order to package my conference slides (http://teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html) more conveniently for downloading, I'd like to be able to bundle the 30+ JPEGs of each talk into a single PDF file. I know this won't save me any storage 8-}, but it would allow people to download a single file, that they can page through using Acrobat Reader (or GhostView). I've looked at a few PDF* modules, but none of them seems to have a method for incorporating images; all they talk about is text. Can anybody give me some pointers in how to accomplish this goal, or give me a better alternative? -Tim P.S. Although I compose my presentations using a modified Magicpoint system (see http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html), and there is ostensibly a Magicpoint to PDF converter, it rarely works. Although it can create working PDFs for small or simple presentations, for my large and complicated ones, the PDFs generate inscrutable errors ("/undefined", etc.) when you try to view them, which is why I've given up on distributing in that format. *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From asimjalis at acm.org Sat Jun 28 12:20:11 2003 From: asimjalis at acm.org (Asim Jalis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: <3EFD06B2.8070201@conway.org> References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> <3EFD06B2.8070201@conway.org> Message-ID: <20030628172011.GA89914@wokkil.pair.com> On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 11:08:34PM -0400, Damian Conway wrote: > Jim Flanagan wrote: > > > Mediterranean Kitchen. Garlic for Geeks. > > We have a winner! :-) Can you extract a module from their menu? From MichaelRWolf at att.net Mon Jun 23 19:02:31 2003 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Amazon interviewing at OSCON Message-ID: Amazon will be interviewing at OSCON (in Portland, OR) this year. You 'da Monster.... http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18259696&AVSDM=2003%2D06%2D20+10%3A21%3A00&CCD=my%2Emonster%2Ecom&JSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom&HD=company%2Emonster%2Ecom&AD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fq%3DOSCON%26sort%3Drv%26vw%3Db%26cy%3DUS%26brd%3D1%252C1862%252C1863&Logo=1&col=dltci&cy=US&brd=1%2C1862%2C1863&lid=&fn=&q=OSCON -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Jun 28 13:46:45 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030628114645.A23138@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 06:26:37PM -0700, Jim Flanagan wrote: > On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > > > Damian tells me he'll be staying near the Key Arena, so > > can somebody recommend a good geekly restaurant in that > > vicinity for a SPUGly rendezvous around 7:15pm Saturday ? > > Mediterranean Kitchen. Garlic for Geeks. I can't confirm the existence of this restaurant, at either of the Seattle addresses listed on the internet (4 West Roy St., and 366 Roy St.), by calling their only apparent phone number, 285-6713, which never gets answered. Are you sure it's still in business? -Tim > > -- > ::jimfl > > http://jimfl.tensegrity.net > mailto:jimfl%40t%65ns%65gr%69ty.n%65t -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Jun 28 16:06:33 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: <3EFD06B2.8070201@conway.org> References: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030627180913.B20295@timji.consultix-inc.com> <3EFD06B2.8070201@conway.org> Message-ID: <20030628140633.A23490@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 11:08:34PM -0400, Damian Conway wrote: > Jim Flanagan wrote: > > > Mediterranean Kitchen. Garlic for Geeks. > > We have a winner! :-) > -Damian Okay, the airport welcome party will plan on arriving there between 7:15 and 7:30, and others wishing to join up with us can look for us there. The restaurant is at 366 Roy St., near 4th avenue, in the vicinity of the Opera House. The web site says it's "inexpensive". The phone number is (206) 285-6713. Please let me know ASAP if you're planning to come, so we can pre-dimension the table accordingly. -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From dan at concolor.org Sat Jun 28 19:29:56 2003 From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Damian Welcome Party? In-Reply-To: <20030627173623.A20221@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: A quick check of AA.com at 5:30pm shows an estimated arrival time of 7pm for flight 2889 from Dallas gate C18 baggage claim 9. -dan On Friday, Jun 27, 2003, at 17:36 US/Pacific, Tim Maher wrote: > SPUGsters, > > Crikey! Who's that fair dinkum Aussie I see approaching across > the billabong? Ain't he a little beauty! Just look at those > bulgy muscles, shiny coat, and wonderfully convoluted brains! > > It's none other than our good friend and Guru, "The Damian", > who will be arriving at SeaTac tomorrow evening. I'll be driving > down from Ballard to collect him and drop him at his downtown > hotel, so I figure we might as well make a SPUGly party out > of it! > > So here's the deal: anybody who wants to come along check > with me in advance for carpool-seating availability, and then > show up at my house (1753 NW 62nd St., 98107) by 5:30pm, and > we'll get The Damian together, and possibly have some dinner > and drinks afterwards (although be forewarned, the Big D, > who will be on East-coast time and possibly cranky 8-}, may > beg off a bit early). > > If anybody wants to meet up with us at the airport, he'll be > arriving on American 2889 from Dallas, slated for 6:30pm, > but of course you can't exactly wait at the gate these days; > on the other hand, he'll have checked baggage, so it's probably > best to meet us at the carousel. > > If we know far enough in advance, I'll announce our > wining/dining location to the list, so others might try to > meet up with us there. > > I'm guessing that the Rock Bottom tavern on 5th and University > migiht be a suitable location, but I'm not sure what hotel > Damian's booked in yet. > > What say you on that point, Mate? D'ya reckon you'll be in > that part of downtown, like last time? > > -Tim > *------------------------------------------------------------* > | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | > | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | > *------------------------------------------------------------* > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > > From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 29 15:28:06 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? Message-ID: <200306292028.h5TKS6u11734@catmanor.com> There is an open source package called imagemagik with a program called 'montage' that can combine several images into a single pdf file. It is a bit tricky to use. I can combine your slides on my apple powerbook using iphoto. Unlike the montage program it scales each image to a single page and produces a multi page pdf. It is very easy to use. I simply select all the image and click on "save as pdf". If you send me a tarball of images, I'll send you back a pdf. William Julien vi bill From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Jun 29 16:41:30 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? In-Reply-To: <200306292028.h5TKS6u11734@catmanor.com> References: <200306292028.h5TKS6u11734@catmanor.com> Message-ID: <20030629144130.A26766@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:28:06PM -0700, William Julien wrote: > There is an open source package called imagemagik with a program > called 'montage' that can combine several images into a single > pdf file. It is a bit tricky to use. I use ImageMagick all the time, but only through custom scripts that I've created, because I find it *extremely difficult* to decipher the manual pages about how to use the different features. But I didn't know about the montage program, so thanks for mentioning that. However, the PDF::API2-based solution that Jeff Almeida posted is already working fine for me, so I'm all set. (Thanks again, Jeff!) > William Julien > vi bill > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org -- -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | *------------------------------------------------------------* From jay at scherrer.com Sun Jun 29 17:15:53 2003 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? In-Reply-To: <20030628091101.A22639@timji.consultix-inc.com> References: <20030628091101.A22639@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <200306291515.53532.jay@scherrer.com> I'm suprized to see you use anything but Perl while presenting Perl. I've been using PDF::Create for most all my PDFness. It helps to write PDF files on the fly (and works rather nice). If you check the perldoc's PDF::Create it provides for a media box, but I haven't used it yet. Jay On Saturday 28 June 2003 09:11 am, Tim Maher wrote: > SPUGgles, > > In order to package my conference slides > (http://teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html) more conveniently > for downloading, I'd like to be able to bundle the 30+ JPEGs > of each talk into a single PDF file. I know this won't save > me any storage 8-}, but it would allow people to download a > single file, that they can page through using Acrobat Reader > (or GhostView). > > I've looked at a few PDF* modules, but none of them seems to > have a method for incorporating images; all they talk about > is text. > > Can anybody give me some pointers in how to accomplish this > goal, or give me a better alternative? > > > -Tim > P.S. Although I compose my presentations using a modified > Magicpoint system (see http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html), > and there is ostensibly a Magicpoint to PDF converter, it > rarely works. Although it can create working PDFs for small > or simple presentations, for my large and complicated ones, > the PDFs generate inscrutable errors ("/undefined", etc.) when > you try to view them, which is why I've given up on distributing > in that format. > *------------------------------------------------------------* > > | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | > | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | > > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > > | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | > > *------------------------------------------------------------* > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org -- Personalized e-mail and domain names: Message-ID: At our August SPUG meeting, I will be providing a server and WiFi (802.11b) access point, courtesy of Addnorya [1]. This is an early heads-up to anyone wishing to try out the Kwiki during the meeting. You may bring a laptop with suitable WiFi equipment to connect. Of course, one can try out the Kwiki right now on the Internet. What's the difference? We'll get to play with Brian's presentation *while* he's talking. Now that interactive! The rumor that we will have access to the Internet is simple fantasy. I may have other features to offer on the server (such as shell access and a CPAN mirror), but it's too early to say what I'll have ready. I'm hoping to make the equipment a regular feature at future SPUG meetings as a resource. Please send me suggestions or ideas. I will make another announcement in early August. [1] http://addnorya.com/ On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > Also, FYI Ingy will be our speaker on 8/19, talking about his (very > impressive) new CGI::Kwiki module. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 29 19:17:07 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki Message-ID: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> > >At our August SPUG meeting, I will be providing a server and WiFi >(802.11b) access point, courtesy of Addnorya [1]. This is an early >heads-up to anyone wishing to try out the Kwiki during the meeting. You >may bring a laptop with suitable WiFi equipment to connect. > >Of course, one can try out the Kwiki right now on the Internet. What's the >difference? We'll get to play with Brian's presentation *while* he's >talking. Now that interactive! What's the url again? I seem to have lost it. I had kept it in my inbox for a while as I reminder to myself to respond to the various problems I had encountered. But I must have zapped it. Problems: It depends heavily on stylesheets. These did not work on my linux, solaris and irix systems. I hadn't had a chance to test it yet on mac OS/X. William Julien vi bill > >The rumor that we will have access to the Internet is simple fantasy. I >may have other features to offer on the server (such as shell access and a >CPAN mirror), but it's too early to say what I'll have ready. I'm hoping >to make the equipment a regular feature at future SPUG meetings as a >resource. Please send me suggestions or ideas. I will make another >announcement in early August. > >[1] http://addnorya.com/ > >On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote: > >> Also, FYI Ingy will be our speaker on 8/19, talking about his (very >> impressive) new CGI::Kwiki module. > >-- >Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. > > > >_____________________________________________________________ >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List >POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org >ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list >MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA >WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org > From hydo at mac.com Sun Jun 29 19:36:53 2003 From: hydo at mac.com (Clint Moore) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki In-Reply-To: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> References: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, June 29, 2003, at 5:17PM, William Julien wrote: >> >> Of course, one can try out the Kwiki right now on the Internet. >> What's the >> difference? We'll get to play with Brian's presentation *while* he's >> talking. Now that interactive! > > Problems: It depends heavily on stylesheets. These did not work on my > linux, solaris and irix systems. I hadn't had a chance to test it yet > on mac OS/X. It works great for me with FireBird and Safari on osx and mozilla on linux. In fact, if my memory serves me right, Ingy was using mozilla to test last time I was over at his place. I could be wrong about that though. -cm From andrew at sweger.net Sun Jun 29 19:45:37 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki In-Reply-To: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, William Julien wrote: > What's the url again? I seem to have lost it. I had kept it in my > inbox for a while as I reminder to myself to respond to the various > problems I had encountered. But I must have zapped it. For the CGI::Kwiki software? http://www.kwiki.org/ > Problems: It depends heavily on stylesheets. These did not work on my > linux, solaris and irix systems. I hadn't had a chance to test it yet > on mac OS/X. That can be true. Part of Brian's design makes it easy to override things such as stylesheets on a site-by-site basis (to the point you can eliminate stylesheets altogether). -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 29 19:54:57 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki Message-ID: <200306300054.h5U0svi11914@catmanor.com> >From hydo@mac.com Sun Jun 29 17:37:27 2003 >In-Reply-To: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> >References: <200306300017.h5U0H7j11855@catmanor.com> >Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v578) >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Cc: William Julien >From: Clint Moore >Subject: Re: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:36:53 -0700 >To: spug-list@mail.pm.org >X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.578) >X-UIDL: IG%!!$54"!X>[!!ce-"! > >On Sunday, June 29, 2003, at 5:17PM, William Julien wrote: >>> >>> Of course, one can try out the Kwiki right now on the Internet. >>> What's the >>> difference? We'll get to play with Brian's presentation *while* he's >>> talking. Now that interactive! >> >> Problems: It depends heavily on stylesheets. These did not work on my >> linux, solaris and irix systems. I hadn't had a chance to test it yet >> on mac OS/X. > > It works great for me with FireBird and Safari on osx and mozilla on >linux. In fact, if my memory serves me right, Ingy was using mozilla >to test last time I was over at his place. I could be wrong about that >though. > >-cm > For the record, I'm using netscape 4.8 on irix and netscape 4.7 on solaris and linux. I guess my point is that the use of stylesheets is a very system dependant choice. I run a wiki. I use a patched versions of usemod called nu_wiki. See . The use of style sheets is very system dependant because of the fuzzy specs provided by 3c.org. It allowed a lot of "interpretation" by developers. It is a *bad* choice to imbed into a wiki. So far, my impression of kwiwi is that is limited in capability and highly dependant on the client's browser. Drop all this stylesheet crap and all that goes away. William Julien By the way... What's the URL? From moonbeam at catmanor.com Sun Jun 29 19:57:27 2003 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki Message-ID: <200306300057.h5U0vRL11919@catmanor.com> oops... make that William From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Jun 30 00:03:44 2003 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? In-Reply-To: <200306291515.53532.jay@scherrer.com> References: <20030628091101.A22639@timji.consultix-inc.com> <200306291515.53532.jay@scherrer.com> Message-ID: <20030629220344.A27788@timji.consultix-inc.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 03:15:53PM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > I'm suprized to see you use anything but Perl while presenting > Perl. I've been using PDF::Create for most all my PDFness. It > helps to write PDF files on the fly (and works rather nice). If > you check the perldoc's PDF::Create it provides for a media > box, but I haven't used it yet. > Jay Well, there is a 3,000 line program I wrote that's involved in creating my presentation slides (http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html), but I don't agree with your logic, which according to my understanding, seems to dictate that when I'm writing about UNIX, I should be limited to using troff to create my presentations! 8-} > On Saturday 28 June 2003 09:11 am, Tim Maher wrote: > > SPUGgles, > > > > In order to package my conference slides > > (http://teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html) more conveniently > > for downloading, I'd like to be able to bundle the 30+ JPEGs > > of each talk into a single PDF file. > > -Tim > > P.S. Although I compose my presentations using a modified > > Magicpoint system (see http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html), > > and there is ostensibly a Magicpoint to PDF converter, it > > rarely works. Although it can create working PDFs for small > > or simple presentations, for my large and complicated ones, > > the PDFs generate inscrutable errors ("/undefined", etc.) when > > you try to view them, which is why I've given up on distributing > > in that format. (What I meant to say here is that I've given up on using mgp2pdf to create PDF files of my slides from the original text files that describe them. Instead, I'm now using mgp2html, which reliably generates JPEGs of my slides, and I'm looking for a way to bundle those into a PDF.) > > *------------------------------------------------------------* > > > > | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | > > | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient") | > > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com TeachMeUnix.Com TeachMePerl.Com | > > > > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* > > > > | Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers" | > > From andrew at sweger.net Mon Jun 30 01:24:20 2003 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki In-Reply-To: <200306300054.h5U0svi11914@catmanor.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, William Julien wrote: > For the record, I'm using netscape 4.8 on irix and netscape 4.7 on solaris > and linux. I guess my point is that the use of stylesheets is a very > system dependant choice. Depends on the user population you're concerned with. Yes, some people will be left in the cold. That's the price we pay for standards that battle in a pseudo-commercial market on the Internet. > I run a wiki. I use a patched versions of usemod called nu_wiki. See > . The use of style sheets is very system > dependant because of the fuzzy specs provided by 3c.org. It allowed > a lot of "interpretation" by developers. It is a *bad* choice to imbed > into a wiki. Again (as in my earlier reply), Kwiki is very easily modified to avoid stylesheets. > So far, my impression of kwiwi is that is limited in capability and > highly dependant on the client's browser. Drop all this stylesheet crap > and all that goes away. Kwiki is but a foundation to build on. It only appears limited if you insist on running it stock. I think Kwiki will lead to a forest of very creative plug-ins that will make it a very rich environment. The design promotes simple extensibility where different plug-ins can work side-by-side without having to dig through a tangle of code. Don't find what you need? Whip up a plug-in. Can't? Ask, nicely. Take a look under the hood and compare it to UseMod Wiki, Twiki, and CGI::Wiki. > By the way... What's the URL? http://www.kwiki.org/ (If that's not what you're looking for, please specify for what URL you're interested in.) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From bill at celestial.com Mon Jun 30 02:01:31 2003 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? In-Reply-To: <20030629220344.A27788@timji.consultix-inc.com>; from tim@consultix-inc.com on Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 10:03:44PM -0700 References: <20030628091101.A22639@timji.consultix-inc.com> <200306291515.53532.jay@scherrer.com> <20030629220344.A27788@timji.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20030630000130.A5442@barryg.mi.celestial.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 10:03:44PM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote: >On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 03:15:53PM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: >> I'm suprized to see you use anything but Perl while presenting >> Perl. I've been using PDF::Create for most all my PDFness. It >> helps to write PDF files on the fly (and works rather nice). If >> you check the perldoc's PDF::Create it provides for a media >> box, but I haven't used it yet. >> Jay > >Well, there is a 3,000 line program I wrote >that's involved in creating my presentation slides >(http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html), but I don't agree with >your logic, which according to my understanding, seems to >dictate that when I'm writing about UNIX, I should be limited >to using troff to create my presentations! 8-} Don't laugh. I've written an mm2docbook filter that translaters from -mm macros to docbook xml since I find it easier to write that way. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins.'' -- H.L. Mencken, 1923 From spud at spudzeppelin.com Mon Jun 30 08:59:38 2003 From: spud at spudzeppelin.com (Jeff Almeida) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? Message-ID: <20030630085938.B86223@brighton.offwhite.net> Tim was talking about this solution I sent him Saturday morning, but I don't think I actually sent it to the list, so here goes: Also Sprach Tim Maher: >Can anybody give me some pointers in how to accomplish this >goal, or give me a better alternative? use PDF::API2; my $pdf = PDF::API2->new(); my @slides = (file1.jpg,file2.jpg,file3.jpg); foreach (@slides) { my ($img) = $pdf->image_jpeg($_); my ($page) = $pdf->page(); my ($gfx) = $page->gfx(); $gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury); } my ($output) = $pdf->stringify(); print "$output"; and indirect accordingly :) (n.b. llx, lly, urx, ury are the coordinates of the lower left corner and upper right corner you want the image on the page (where the lower left corner of the global context is 0,0, and there are 72 ppi). You can set the page size with $pdf->mediabox($x,$y). For example, landscape 8 1/2 x 11, no automatic margins is $pdf->mediabox(792,612); ) -- ************************************************************ Jeff D. "Spud (Zeppelin)" Almeida Little Elm, TX spud@spudzeppelin.com From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Mon Jun 30 19:19:51 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki In-Reply-To: (Andrew Sweger's message of "Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT)") References: Message-ID: Andrew Sweger writes: > At our August SPUG meeting, I will be providing a server and WiFi > (802.11b) access point, courtesy of Addnorya [1]. [...] > Please send me suggestions or ideas. Perhaps you could drop the access point into one pocket of a fishing/camara jacket and a battery pack in another and have a wearable computing fashion show. Still wouldn't compete with my previous mobile computing platform -- Chevy 354 V8, a picture window, a fold out awning, and a fridge. Some called it an RV, but I knew better. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From dan at concolor.org Mon Jun 30 20:48:59 2003 From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:37:01 2004 Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG Aug mtg w/ CGI::Kwiki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F00BEB2-AB66-11D7-8814-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org> On Monday, Jun 30, 2003, at 17:19 US/Pacific, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Andrew Sweger writes: > >> At our August SPUG meeting, I will be providing a server and WiFi >> (802.11b) access point, courtesy of Addnorya [1]. > > [...] > >> Please send me suggestions or ideas. > > Perhaps you could drop the access point into one pocket of a > fishing/camara jacket and a battery pack in another and have a > wearable computing fashion show. > I almost hate to mention this...but I saw one actually being worn at LINUXFest NW. http://www.scottevest.com/ -dan