From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Nov 1 18:42:51 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Kontract Werk Offered Message-ID: <20011101164251.D1165@timji.consultix.wa.com> I have a web site that is using Perl (in cgi bin, and mysql, cron tabs) to do credit card processing, monthly re-billing, and issuing passwords (batch and expire) for customer access to the member's area. I'm hoping to find a Perl programmer who is familiar with Mastergate (Perl by Drew Star) as he is no longer available... since I probably won't find such a person, I hope to find someone familiar with such batch and expire systems. I have a number of things I'd like to add to it... but for now, I'd simply like to add a search function that will search the customer data base by full name, then if not found will continue searching by first name only, then last name only. (currently, the system only searches by username, email address, or credit card number). Thanks, Mac - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From brian at tangent.org Fri Nov 2 04:38:56 2001 From: brian at tangent.org (Brian Aker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: UW Perl Certifications courses in Bellevue Message-ID: <1004697542.30078.72.camel@avenger> Hi all. I know that Joel Grow points out UW Perl certifications courses from time to time on the list so I thought that I would mention that starting in the winter in addition to the classes taught downtown there will be an additional set of course (beginning with the Intro to Perl) taught in Bellevue. I will be instructing the spring Advenaced Topics in Perl course at the Bellevue location. Next week there will be two meetings where you can get more information on the program: * Tuesday, November 6, 2001, 6-7 PM., UW Educational Outreach, 2445 140th NE, Suite B-100, Bellevue. * Thursday, November 15, 2001, noon-12:45, UW Extension Downtown, 1325 Fourth Ave., Suite 400, Seattle. You can find out more about the UW Perl Extension course here: http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/per/per_main.asp Hope to see some of you. -Brian -- _______________________________________________________ Brian Aker, brian@tangent.org Slashdot Senior Developer Seattle, Washington http://tangent.org/~brian/ Email/Jabber brian@tangent.org _______________________________________________________ You can't grep a dead tree. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From BBrockha at starbucks.com Tue Nov 6 13:14:06 2001 From: BBrockha at starbucks.com (Bob Brockhausen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl Message-ID: Does anyone know of if a "diff" like module exists within Perl?? I have script that uses "-s" to do simple diff, but I've found that the files are same size BUT different in content (single char in date 5 vs 6). I'd like to use some kina "diff" utlity to verify if indeed the two files are identical of not (don't need to know the difference, just that they exist is good enought) If no module exists does anyone have utility that would work??? Thanks!! --- Hailing frequencies closed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Brockhausen Phone: 206-318-6413 PO Box 34067 S-IT2 Pager: 206-810-3707 Seattle Wash 98124-1067 Fax: 206-318-2371 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Tue Nov 6 13:38:33 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011106113833.C3640@hobart.helvella.org> Hi, Bob, On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:14:06AM -0800, Bob Brockhausen wrote: > Does anyone know of if a "diff" like module exists within > Perl?? I have script that uses "-s" to do simple diff, > but I've found that the files are same size BUT different > in content (single char in date 5 vs 6). I'd like to > use some kina "diff" utlity to verify if indeed the two files > are identical of not (don't need to know the difference, > just that they exist is good enought) If no module exists > does anyone have utility that would work??? If you aren't concerned with what the actual difference is, just whether two lines (strings) are equal or not, then just use string comparison (called 'eq' in Perl): #--------- my $line_a = ; my $line_b = ; print 'line_a and line_b differ' unless $line_a eq $line_b; #--------- Have fun, -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Tue Nov 6 13:20:01 2001 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl Message-ID: <200111061920.LAA02514@carios2.ca.boeing.com> > Does anyone know of if a "diff" like module exists within > Perl?? I have script that uses "-s" to do simple diff, > but I've found that the files are same size BUT different > in content (single char in date 5 vs 6). I'd like to > use some kina "diff" utlity to verify if indeed the two files > are identical of not (don't need to know the difference, > just that they exist is good enought) If no module exists > does anyone have utility that would work??? I have no experience here but String::DiffLine maybe: http://search.cpan.org/search?mode=module&query=diff -- Charles DeRykus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tuck at whistlingfish.net Tue Nov 6 15:49:20 2001 From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl In-Reply-To: <200111061920.LAA02514@carios2.ca.boeing.com> References: <200111061920.LAA02514@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <50300000.1005083359@benzene> -- ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com spake thusly: >> Does anyone know of if a "diff" like module exists within >> Perl?? I have script that uses "-s" to do simple diff, >> but I've found that the files are same size BUT different >> in content (single char in date 5 vs 6). I'd like to >> use some kina "diff" utlity to verify if indeed the two files >> are identical of not (don't need to know the difference, >> just that they exist is good enought) If no module exists >> does anyone have utility that would work??? > > I have no experience here but String::DiffLine maybe: > > http://search.cpan.org/search?mode=module&query=diff That same search also returns Algorithm::Diff, which offers quite a bit more power. For what you're doing, though, String::DiffLine is probably enough, although I had to patch it to get it to compile: ---- begin DiffLine.xs.patch ---- --- DiffLine.xs.orig Tue Nov 6 13:27:05 2001 +++ DiffLine.xs Tue Nov 6 13:27:18 2001 @@ -46,7 +46,7 @@ lines++,lpos=i+1; } if(l1==l2) - PUSHs(&sv_undef); + PUSHs(&PL_sv_undef); else PUSHs(sv_2mortal(newSViv(l))); PUSHs(sv_2mortal(newSViv(lines))); ---- end DiffLine.xs.patch ---- I did a bit of benchmarking, and for this purpose String::DiffLine is considerably faster, although perhaps I was going about things the wrong way. Splitting the file before passing it to A:D:diff slows things down considerably (~10x), so that's commented out for the benchmark. The main problem with A:D is that it parses the entire file rather than just looking for the first difference. I believe it's also working entirely in Perl, rather than in C. It does, however, have a much more general usefulness. Benchmark results and code follow: [70] src@benzene$ ~/projects/try/benchmark.pl 10000 Benchmark: timing 10000 iterations of algo_diff, diffline... algo_diff: 24 wallclock secs (23.07 usr + 0.95 sys = 24.02 CPU) @ 416.32/s (n=10000) diffline: 2 wallclock secs ( 1.57 usr + 0.00 sys = 1.57 CPU) @ 6369.43/s (n=10000) Rate algo_diff diffline algo_diff 416/s -- -93% diffline 6369/s 1430% -- ---- begin benchmark.pl ---- #!/usr/bin/perl use Benchmark qw(cmpthese); use Data::Dumper; use File::Slurp; use warnings; no warnings qw(uninitialized); use strict; main(); sub main { my $count = $ARGV[0] || 1000; cmpthese($count, benchmarkCode()); } sub benchmarkCode { use vars qw($file1 $file2); $file1 = read_file "/etc/apache/httpd.conf"; $file2 = read_file "/etc/apache/httpd.conf.0"; require Algorithm::Diff; my $algo_diff_split = sub { my @lines1 = split "\n", $file1; my @lines2 = split "\n", $file2; my @diffs = Algorithm::Diff::diff (\@lines1, \@lines2); return scalar @diffs; }; my $algo_diff_nosplit = sub { my @diffs = Algorithm::Diff::diff ([ $file1 ], [ $file2 ]); return scalar @diffs; }; require String::DiffLine; my $diffline = sub { my @result = String::DiffLine::diffline($file1, $file2); return defined $result[0]; }; my %subs = ( # algo_diff_split => $algo_diff_split, algo_diff_nosplit => $algo_diff_nosplit, diffline => $diffline, ); while (my ($name, $sub) = each %subs) { warn "$name: failed to differing files" unless $sub->(); { local $file2 = $file1; warn "$name: failed to detect matching files" if $sub->(); } } return \%subs;; } ---- end benchmark.pl ---- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011106/ed2922a6/attachment.bin From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Nov 6 17:02:11 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Need New Meeting Place Message-ID: <20011106150211.A9214@timji.consultix.wa.com> SPUGsters, With the recent departure from N2H2 of Andy Sweger, SPUG lost its last connection to the Union Bank of California's meeting space, and officially became homeless! 8-{ To deal with this problem, I have arranged a "moderately adequate" location for the next few meetings as a fall-back position, so our meeting schedule will be able to resume this month for sure, and continue at least through the end of this year. However, this space is definitely not optimal, so I encourage you all to ask your bosses if we could meet in your building's meeting room, if it's better. FYI, I've attached a list of the desirable properties below, culled from the many remarks made by members a few years back (the last time we were "evicted"). The "fall-back" location (which I'm keeping mum about for the time being, for "diplomatic" reasons), lacks the following: a computer projector, comfy chairs (they're hard plastic), and restaurant/bar facilities in neighborhood. So please consider what you've got for meeting space that we might be able to use (on 3rd Tuesdays, 6:30-9pm), and let me know about it! Tim P.S. Those new to this "begging for space" game tend to think that Public Libraries are the magic solution to this problem, but I've never seen one that could handle the long-term advance bookings for particular nights that we need, so they don't really work for us. ============================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX/8649 | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@consultix-inc.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.seattleperl.org | ============================================================= SPUG-HOME DESIDERATA Minimum Requirements: Easy highway access Accommodation for up to 25 persons Central to high-tech work locations (Seattle, Bellevue/Kirkland, or Mercer Island) Near restaurants/bars for post-meeting meetings Better: Free and ample parking Accommodation for up to 50 persons (for Damian talks, etc.) free access to meeting room (no escorts) Overhead Projector & screen White-Boards Telephone line access (for laptop/Internet connectivity) Low charge ($$) to use facility Even Better: Computer Projector Computer with Internet access (via DSL, etc.) Comfy chairs No charge ($$) to use facility - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From moonbeam at catmanor.com Tue Nov 6 21:40:36 2001 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Need New Meeting Place Message-ID: <200111070340.fA73eac02465@catmanor.com> Hi Tim. It's "vi Bill" here. I hold my Northwest Computing Measurement group conference at the UW Safeco auditorium. Great over head projector. We fly in speakers from all over the country, and many have commented that it was one of the best places they have presented. It is a bit large. Seating for 100, close it I5, no escorts, but a badge at the door is required by security. Lots of UW watering holes nearby. There is a hotel just across the street for those "out of town" speakers. The problem is finding a sponsor. NWCMG gets its space rent free from Safeco because our president is an employee. The key to booking this place is to find a Safeco SPUGite that is willing to sponsor (in other words, reserve the room and notify security) for SPUG. See http://www.catmanor.com/nwcmg/ to see my nwCMG conference listings. --- William Julien _,'| _.-''``-...___..--'; moonbeam@catmanor.com /, \'. _..-' , ,--...--''' vi is my shepherd; < \ .`--''' ` /| i shall not font. `-,;' ; ; ; __...--'' __...--_..' .;.' (,__....----''' (,..--'' perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);' perl -e '( $ ,, $ ")=("a".."z")[0,-1]; print "sh", $ ","m\n";;";;"' >From owner-spug-list@gocho.pm.org Tue Nov 6 19:16:49 2001 >X-Authentication-Warning: gocho.pm.org: majordomo set sender to owner-spug-list@pm.org using -f >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:02:11 -0800 >From: Tim Maher/CONSULTIX >To: spug-list@pm.org >Subject: SPUG: Need New Meeting Place >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6us >Sender: owner-spug-list@pm.org >Precedence: bulk >X-UIDL: m`U"!A;1!!024"!NCB!! > >SPUGsters, > >With the recent departure from N2H2 of Andy Sweger, SPUG lost >its last connection to the Union Bank of California's >meeting space, and officially became homeless! 8-{ > >To deal with this problem, I have arranged a "moderately adequate" >location for the next few meetings as a fall-back position, so our >meeting schedule will be able to resume this month for sure, and >continue at least through the end of this year. > >However, this space is definitely not optimal, so I encourage >you all to ask your bosses if we could meet in your building's >meeting room, if it's better. FYI, I've attached a list of >the desirable properties below, culled from the many remarks made >by members a few years back (the last time we were "evicted"). > >The "fall-back" location (which I'm keeping mum about for the time >being, for "diplomatic" reasons), lacks the following: a computer >projector, comfy chairs (they're hard plastic), and restaurant/bar >facilities in neighborhood. > >So please consider what you've got for meeting space that we might >be able to use (on 3rd Tuesdays, 6:30-9pm), and let me know about it! > >Tim >P.S. Those new to this "begging for space" game tend to think that >Public Libraries are the magic solution to this problem, but I've >never seen one that could handle the long-term advance bookings for >particular nights that we need, so they don't really work for us. > >============================================================= >| Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX/8649 | >| SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@consultix-inc.com | >| Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.seattleperl.org | >============================================================= > SPUG-HOME DESIDERATA > >Minimum Requirements: > Easy highway access > Accommodation for up to 25 persons > Central to high-tech work locations > (Seattle, Bellevue/Kirkland, or Mercer Island) > Near restaurants/bars for post-meeting meetings > >Better: > Free and ample parking > Accommodation for up to 50 persons (for Damian talks, etc.) > free access to meeting room (no escorts) > Overhead Projector & screen > White-Boards > Telephone line access (for laptop/Internet connectivity) > Low charge ($$) to use facility > >Even Better: > Computer Projector > Computer with Internet access (via DSL, etc.) > Comfy chairs > No charge ($$) to use facility > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Tue Nov 6 22:32:04 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: parsing Perl from Perl... Message-ID: So, I have a few applications in which I need to parse (but *not* compile or execute) Perl code. With all of Perl's built-in features for self-reflection, I would have thought that there would be a module that did this, but I can't seem to find one. If necessary, of course, it wouldn't be that difficult simply to code a Perl parser from scratch, using regexp's and event streams and all the rest of it... but I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel here. I kind of get this feeling that I'm missing something obvious here. Any suggestions? -jason P.S. Since it might not be exactly clear what I mean by "parsing", let me give a couple of examples of the sorts of applications I mean. 1. A syntax-coloring script, that turns Perl source into syntax-colored HTML. 2. A pre-processor that enforces slightly stricter syntax than that of the normal Perl compiler. (Specifically, not allowing named subroutines to be defined inside blocks of code.) And other stuff along those lines... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dcd at tc.fluke.com Tue Nov 6 23:32:27 2001 From: dcd at tc.fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: parsing Perl from Perl... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 at 20:32 -0800, dancerboy wrote: > 1. A syntax-coloring script, that turns Perl source into syntax-colored HTML. You might want to look at other editors that already do this. (perhaps vim, elvis, and emacs ) Also look at perltidy, and maybe B::Deparse > 2. A pre-processor that enforces slightly stricter syntax than that > of the normal Perl compiler. (Specifically, not allowing named > subroutines to be defined inside blocks of code.) Look at B::Lint The B:: modules use perl to parse the perl into intermediate code, and then extract information from the compiled code. There are quite a few B:: modules B::Asmdata B::CC.3 B::Flags.3 B::Terse.3 B::Assembler B::Concise.3 B::Lint.3 B::Xref.3 B::Bblock B::Debug.3 B::Showlex.3 B::Bytecode B::Deparse.3 B::Stackobj.3 B::C B::Disassembler.3 B::Stash.3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Wed Nov 7 01:48:59 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: parsing Perl from Perl... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:54 PM -0800 11/6/01, Tim Maher/CONSULTIX wrote: > > If necessary, of course, it wouldn't be that difficult simply to code >> a Perl parser from scratch, using regexp's and event streams and all > >You're not the first to underestimate the difficulty of this task, either! > Heh. Well, I didn't say it would be trivial :) Yeah, I noticed it would be at least somewhat tricky when I began on the "easier" project: detecting named sub definitions inside of code blocks (and carping about them). (If anyone wants to know why I think defining named subroutines inside of code blocks should be syntactically illegal, I would be happy to provide a very long rant on the subject... :) I mean, *all* I had to do was keep track of whether /\bsub\s+\w+\s+\{/ had an unmatched { somewhere in front of it, right?... Even the =pod syntax is stranger than I expected. Here's an interesting multiple-choice question that I bet NO ONE on SPUG will get right, unless they fire up the Perl interpreter and actually test it: Say you're parsing a Perl file one line at a time, storing each line in $_. You're currently parsing a section of POD documentation. Which of the following is the *correct* test to determine when the POD documentation should end, and normal Perl parsing should resume on the following line? /^=cut/ /^=cut\b/ /^=cut\s/ /^=cut\s*$/ /^=cut\n/ /^=\s*cut\s*$/ /^=\s*cut\s*/ /^=\s*cut\b/ Would you believe it's actually the first one? Yes, you can end a section of POD documentation with: =cuthulu is cute but poorly spelled (!) At 9:32 PM -0800 11/6/01, David Dyck wrote: >You might want to look at other editors that already do this. > (perhaps vim, elvis, and emacs ) Of course, most of the editors do it wrong :) (I usually use BBEdit -- which is generally considered one of the best source-code editors for the Mac -- and you wouldn't believe how easily it croaks on standard Perl syntax... My Perl code is full of comments that say "I know this looks weird: I wrote it this way so that BBEdit would get the syntax-coloring right for the rest of the file." ) > > > 2. A pre-processor that enforces slightly stricter syntax than that >> of the normal Perl compiler. (Specifically, not allowing named >> subroutines to be defined inside blocks of code.) > >Look at B::Lint Looked. Doesn't do what I want. >The B:: modules use perl to parse the perl into intermediate code, >and then extract information from the compiled code. I confess I didn't dig through the B:: modules all that thoroughly, but it looked to me like they were all meant for manipulating the opcodes, *after* compilation. I'm looking for something that will let me peek into the step *before* compilation: where the code is being split into tokens. I didn't see any B:: modules that appeared to do that. Am I missing something? Right now, cannibalizing perltidy looks like my best option. Thanks for the pointer to that! -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Nov 7 12:32:22 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Ballard UNIX SA/Perl Gig Message-ID: <20011107103222.A16117@timji.consultix.wa.com> Danube Technologies, Inc a Ballard based custom software applications development company, is looking for a part time (20-25 hrs/week) W2 status Unix System and Network Administrator: OS Knowledge: Unix?(FreeBSD) min. 2 years. Applications Dev: Perl, PHP, C Database Dev: MySOL, PostgreSQL, Strong Apache and BIND/DNS experience required. Special Skills: excellent problem solvers, friendly, a positive attitude, and a willingness to learn. We offer flexible schedules to meet your needs, however NO telecommuting You would be on a base salary with no initial stock incentives/etc, $15-20/hr dependent on skills. Job responsibilities include: Hosting account setup/troubleshooting, technical advise/support for staff. If interested in joining us in a fast paced atmosphere, please send your resumes to info@danubetech.com or check us out online at www.danubetech.com Best regards, Laszlo - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Nov 7 14:51:57 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: UW Perl Cert. Classes, Nov. meeting Message-ID: <20011107125157.B17151@timji.consultix.wa.com> The UW Perl Programming Certificate program begins in January and ends in August. It meets once a week on Wednesday evenings from 6-9 pm. The three courses are Beginning Perl, Advanced/Object Oriented Perl, and Perl and the WWW. The instructors are industry experts who share their professional experience and provide personal hands-on instruction. We start with the basics and go in-depth on many Perl topics, including data types, regular expressions, I/O, complex data structures, object oriented Perl, database access, CGI programming, and lots more. A free information session will be held on Thursday November 15th from noon-12:45 PM at the downtown Seattle UW Extension location (1325 4th Ave, suite 400). More information is available here: http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/per/per_main.asp Thanks! Rebecca Schmidt - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From manlungl at microsoft.com Wed Nov 7 17:48:38 2001 From: manlungl at microsoft.com (Man Lung Li) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl Message-ID: If you just want to know whether two files are identical, the simplest way is to compare their checksum. Man Lung Li > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Brockhausen [mailto:BBrockha@starbucks.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:14 AM > To: 'spug-list@pm.org' > Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl > > > Does anyone know of if a "diff" like module exists within > Perl?? I have script that uses "-s" to do simple diff, but > I've found that the files are same size BUT different in > content (single char in date 5 vs 6). I'd like to use some > kina "diff" utlity to verify if indeed the two files are > identical of not (don't need to know the difference, > just that they exist is good enought) If no module exists > does anyone have utility that would work??? > > Thanks!! > > --- Hailing frequencies closed > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > Bob Brockhausen Phone: 206-318-6413 > PO Box 34067 S-IT2 Pager: 206-810-3707 > > Seattle Wash 98124-1067 Fax: 206-318-2371 > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your > Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; > for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From beckyls at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 7 18:36:31 2001 From: beckyls at u.washington.edu (Rebecca L. Schmidt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: UW Perl Cert. Classes, Nov. meeting In-Reply-To: <20011107125157.B17151@timji.consultix.wa.com> Message-ID: Thanks for posting this message, Tim. I'll add one more detail about the UW Perl Programming Certificate Program that starts in January: * Classes meet at our UW Bellevue location, 2445 140th Ave. N.E., Suite B-100. Interested people are welcome to contact me directly for more information. Take care, Rebecca Schmidt University of Washington Extension rschmidt@ese.washington.edu; beckyls@u.washington.edu (206) 221-6243 On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Tim Maher/CONSULTIX wrote: > > The UW Perl Programming Certificate program begins in January and ends in > August. It meets once a week on Wednesday evenings from 6-9 pm. The three > courses are Beginning Perl, Advanced/Object Oriented Perl, and Perl and > the WWW. The instructors are industry experts who share their professional > experience and provide personal hands-on instruction. We start with the > basics and go in-depth on many Perl topics, including data types, regular > expressions, I/O, complex data structures, object oriented Perl, database > access, CGI programming, and lots more. > > A free information session will be held on Thursday November 15th from > noon-12:45 PM at the downtown Seattle UW Extension location (1325 4th Ave, > suite 400). > > More information is available here: > http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/per/per_main.asp > > Thanks! > Rebecca Schmidt > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dcd at tc.fluke.com Wed Nov 7 18:50:31 2001 From: dcd at tc.fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl (really "cmp" / File::Compare) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 at 11:14 -0800, Bob Brockhausen ...: wanted to > ... verify if indeed the two files are identical or not ... searching for compare in the CPAN database found Module File::Compare (G/GS/GSAR/perl-5.6.1.tar.gz) Looks like this module is part of the standare perl 5.6.1 distribution. NAME File::Compare - Compare files or filehandles SYNOPSIS use File::Compare; if (compare("file1","file2") == 0) { print "They're equal\n"; } DESCRIPTION The File::Compare::compare function compares the contents of two sources, each of which can be a file or a file han? dle. It is exported from File::Compare by default. File::Compare::cmp is a synonym for File::Compare::compare. It is exported from File::Compare only by request. .... RETURN File::Compare::compare return 0 if the files are equal, 1 if the files are unequal, or -1 if an error was encoun? tered. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tuck at whistlingfish.net Wed Nov 7 21:50:26 2001 From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: "diff" utility within Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27930000.1005191426@benzene> -- Man Lung Li spake thusly: > If you just want to know whether two files are identical, the simplest > way is to compare their checksum. In simple cases this is probably true, but not if you're dealing with extremely large files. Comparing checksums requires reading in the entire file. Using diff --brief (or similar) will stop reading after the first difference. Of course, the methods mentioned already involving the *Diff* modules required reading in the entire file, although presumably this process could be altered to read the file in chunks instead. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011107/67e57338/attachment.bin From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Nov 9 17:51:22 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Cobalt Group Gig Perl/Java Message-ID: <20011109155122.A5563@timji.consultix.wa.com> Sr. PERL/Java Developer The Cobalt Group, Inc. Job Duties: Primary responsibilities include creation of custom solutions and support of high-profile applications for major clients. Cobalt is looking for a self-starter who has strong collaborative skills and is driven by delivering custom client solutions and work with parts data inventory for PartsVoice portal. Position involves Object-oriented PERL development to start and moves to J2EE development. Requirements: 5+ solid years of software development, including strong Object-oriented PERL development experience and use of DBI/DBD. Development experience must include design and architecture of distributed systems or multi-tier client/server applications. Prefer Java experience including focuses on J2EE, EJB, Servlets and JSP. Strong relational database (Oracle) skills. Experience with BEA WebLogic or TopLink is a definite plus. Knowledge of RUP, UML and XML is highly desirable. Experience working with inventory systems and email parsing. Candidate must also have strong problem solving and issue resolution skills. Candidate must be a team player, able to work with cross-functional teams, and highly leading-edge technology. Products/Services: The Cobalt Group, Inc. a leading provider of e-business products and services for the automotive industry. With more than 8,900 website clients and approximately 8,700 parts locator clients, Cobalt is helping dealerships and manufacturers maximize their profitability online. Cobalt offers complete, cost-effective e-business packages that are endorsed by the National Automobile Dealers Association. With five packages to choose from, you'll get everything you need to meet your dealership's specific online profit goals. Cobalt owns and operates PartsVoice, the nation's leading automotive OEM parts locating and marketing company, and IntegraLink Corporation, the auto industry's premier provider of automotive data collection and reporting services. Cobalt is the only e-business provider ever to endorsed by the National Automobile Dealers' Association. Benefits: Paid vacation and sick leave Personal Days Up to 10 paid holidays per year Medical, dental and vision benefits 401(k) plan Flex Pass/Discounted Parking Onsite exercise facility Casual Work Environment Life Insurance & Supplemental Life Insurance Long/Short Term Disability Flexible Spending Account Group Home, Auto and Renters Insurance Pet Insurance Onsite Training Facility Manufacturers Discount on New Car Purchase Cell Phone Discounts Location: Seattle, WA Duration: Regular, Full-time Job ID: 9885 Submit resumes from the website http://www.cobaltgroup.com/inside.html for job 9885-510 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mbcpro at hanmir.com Sat Nov 10 00:57:13 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?TUJD?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dTUJDvsbEq7Wlucy/obytILmrt+Egv7XIrUNEuKYguejG98fPsO0gwNa9wLTPtNku?= Message-ID: <200111100650.fAA6oFmP015584@bomul2.kornet.net> MBC ?? ???? ?????? MBC?????????. MBC??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? M-PEG? ???? ??????. ???? ?? ??? ????(????, ????, ???)??? DICTAION ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ? ??? ???????. MBC ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??, SK? ??????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ? ????, ????? ???? ??? ?? ????. ?? ????? ??? ??? ???, ?? ?? CD? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????. ?????. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011110/590a5ccf/attachment.htm From andrew at sweger.net Mon Nov 12 23:50:24 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Looking for SPUGers working at SAFECO In-Reply-To: <200111070340.fA73eac02465@catmanor.com> Message-ID: Are there any SPUGers out there working at SAFECO (there aren't any obvious ones on the SPUG distribution list)? Do any of you know a SAFECO employee that's ready to throw off the shackles of COBOL or VB and embrace the power of the dark... oops. Uh, I mean Perl. I checked out the auditorium and it would be a pretty sweet deal. However, we must have a SAFECO employee in attendence as our sponsor (they're the key to getting past the guards). Other than that, it's free. - Andy (your former SPUG host) On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, William Julien wrote: > It's "vi Bill" here. I hold my Northwest Computing Measurement group > conference at the UW Safeco auditorium. Great over head projector. > We fly in speakers from all over the country, and many have commented > that it was one of the best places they have presented. It is a bit large. > Seating for 100, close it I5, no escorts, but a badge at the door > is required by security. Lots of UW watering holes nearby. There is > a hotel just across the street for those "out of town" speakers. > > The problem is finding a sponsor. NWCMG gets its space rent free from > Safeco because our president is an employee. The key to booking this > place is to find a Safeco SPUGite that is willing to sponsor (in other > words, reserve the room and notify security) for SPUG. > > See http://www.catmanor.com/nwcmg/ to see my nwCMG conference listings. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mbcpro at hanmir.com Tue Nov 13 01:53:19 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?sK2w5sjx?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dv7XIrbW1uriw7b+1vu6w+LrOtbXHz7Dt?= Message-ID: <200111130751.fAD7pFL03711@mail.kornet.net> MBC ?? ???? ?????? MBC?????????. MBC??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? M-PEG? ???? ??????. ???? ?? ??? ????(????, ????, ???)??? DICTAION ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ? ??? ???????. MBC ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??, SK? ??????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ? ????, ????? ???? ??? ?? ????. ?? ????? ??? ??? ???, ?? ?? CD? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????. ?????. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011113/cb515aa1/attachment.htm From starfire at zipcon.net Tue Nov 13 14:01:49 2001 From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Another SPUG Survey References: Message-ID: <008201c16c7e$22d2e450$2288ddd1@aciwin> While reading Dilbert the other day I became curious about what kinds of workspaces SPUGgers inhabit. (Software developers working in private offices are alleged to be more productive than developers working in cubes, but this idea has yet to catch on.) How about replying to me (NOT the SPUG list) and telling me whether you work in a: 1. Private cubicle 2. Shared cubicle 3. Private office 4. Shared office 5. Open bullpen or lab 6. Other and whether you 7. Have a window as part of your workspace 8. Are close to a window 9. Have no window I will tabulate the answers and publish the results to the list. (All names / emails held in confidence.) Richard (occasional SPUG speaker) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From thasone at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 17:34:22 2001 From: thasone at yahoo.com (c k) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <008201c16c7e$22d2e450$2288ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle sometime now and after using for some time one of the online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions month after month. Is it that hard for them to find someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some one else who's more qualified is present, and why aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. For those in the know, I would enjoy hearing your experienced input. Thank you! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jimfl at colltech.com Wed Nov 14 17:59:37 2001 From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1702305.1005753577@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> --On Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:34 PM -0800 c k wrote: > I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle > sometime now and after using for some time one of the > online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to > wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't > hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions > month after month. Is it that hard for them to find > someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some > one else who's more qualified is present, and why > aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm > just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. > > For those in the know, I would enjoy hearing your > experienced input. Thank you! Sometimes, when hiring people who do not have US citizenship, an employer must demonstrate that they tried to find an equally qualified US citizen for the position, and so they must advertize positions for which they have no intention of hiring. Also, some organizations, particularly government agencies must advertise a position where they already have someone internally they want to hire. -- Jim Flanagan jimfl@colltech.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From memoria at memoria.com Wed Nov 14 18:01:36 2001 From: memoria at memoria.com (Al Billings) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Why aren't they hiring? References: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f401c16d68$b21ff630$9216379d@redmond.corp.microsoft.com> ck wrote: > I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle > sometime now and after using for some time one of the > online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to > wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't > hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions > month after month. Is it that hard for them to find > someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some > one else who's more qualified is present, and why > aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm > just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. I expect that they aren't real jobs. My girlfriend has been looking for a test job for two months and can't find anything. I've heard from several groups that were hiring people that 20+ people are showing up to interview for most tech jobs. The market is extremely tight right now. If jobs have been up for that long, they can't be real. Al - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Wed Nov 14 18:36:36 2001 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:25 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I used to work for a company that did a lot of recruiting using web job boards, and we found that they didn't take our postings off even after we told them they were closed. The perceived value of the job boards is the number of postings they have, so they have an incentive to keep old jobs up after they are filled. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of c k Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:34 PM To: Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle sometime now and after using for some time one of the online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions month after month. Is it that hard for them to find someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some one else who's more qualified is present, and why aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. For those in the know, I would enjoy hearing your experienced input. Thank you! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From aalgard at whitepages.com Wed Nov 14 18:42:04 2001 From: aalgard at whitepages.com (Alex Algard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Why aren't they hiring? Message-ID: <663BFEF390D00A40BF9CA710C29110B9066638@kiwi.intra.whitepages.com> Actually, I know that we'll be hiring at least in the near future. We'll soon be looking to fill several positions. I'm affiliated with two companies (WhitePages.com and CarDomain Networks), both of which are Perl shops and are solidly profitable. I'd expect that an email will be sent to this list when the recruiting for any of these positions begins. - Alex Algard -----Original Message----- From: Al Billings [mailto:memoria@memoria.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:02 PM To: c k; Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: SPUG: Re: Why aren't they hiring? ck wrote: > I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle > sometime now and after using for some time one of the > online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to > wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't > hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions > month after month. Is it that hard for them to find > someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some > one else who's more qualified is present, and why > aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm > just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. I expect that they aren't real jobs. My girlfriend has been looking for a test job for two months and can't find anything. I've heard from several groups that were hiring people that 20+ people are showing up to interview for most tech jobs. The market is extremely tight right now. If jobs have been up for that long, they can't be real. Al - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011114/3299603c/attachment.htm From warner at oz.net Wed Nov 14 19:10:32 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring Message-ID: <3BF31608.EBBD8A38@oz.net> Gee, maybe we should build our own web site. We could call it: realjobs.com, or actualjobs.com, or we_really_have_jobs.com, We will require that employers provide the names of those they have interviewed for verification. :) Anyone up for collaborative projects? Anyone worked in niche industries that need e-commerce automation? That is my problem. I have no specific industry background, so I do not know what is needed where. I have a VA-Linux server and Penguin Computing server getting dusty. I was thinking backoffice automation for small business. The web based SAP for the little guy. My problem is the cost to get a decent speed connection to the Internet is more than rent or a mortgage. Just isn't going to happen on my zero income budget. Perhaps a fate worse than death awaits me. Back to drinking Budweiser, on second thought, maybe I should be making my own. This is off topic. but what do you all think about the impending peak in Oil production around 2006? After that, there is no cheap oil and less and less oil from then on out . You think terrorist are a problem? Hey, I won't share Osama Bin Dickheads picture here again. Yes. it's true, half of all Perl programmers have no sense of humor or a very limited sense of humor. Ciao Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Wed Nov 14 19:44:36 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl programmers are humor impaired In-Reply-To: <3BF31608.EBBD8A38@oz.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Marion Scott Warner wrote: > Yes. it's true, half of all Perl programmers have no sense of humor or > a very limited sense of humor. Now _that's_ the funniest thing I've read in a while. :) Guilty as charged! -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Thu Nov 15 04:11:33 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011114233422.71747.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:34 PM -0800 11/14/01, c k wrote: >I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle >sometime now and after using for some time one of the >online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to >wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't >hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions >month after month. Is it that hard for them to find >someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some >one else who's more qualified is present, and why >aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm >just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. > >For those in the know, I would enjoy hearing your >experienced input. Thank you! > It could be that many of these are large, inefficient corporations that are stupidly delegating their hiring process to an HR department that has no clue how to fill a tech position. I've been to way too many interviews in which I get grilled by some HR peon who has *no* clue what the questions they're asking actually mean. They're usually just going down a list of buzzwords asking "Do you know ? Do you know ? Do you know ?..." I guess whoever answers "yes" to the most questions wins. I don't know. I've never gotten called back after one of those sorts of interviews. (The interview seems to go a bit sour around the point where the recruiter is explaining to me that, while admittedly I am quite experienced at coding for Linux, IRIX, and Solaris, because I don't have any experience actually coding for UNIX, I am probably not suitable for the position. When I try to explain... um, the obvious... the recruiter gets suspicious, like I'm trying to pull some sort of snow job on them. *sigh*) I get the impression from many of the job postings that the hiring manager hands HR a detailed list of the specific technologies that the candidate will be using in the job, which HR interprets as a list *experience* requirements. As such, the list is so incredibly specific and detailed that the odds of finding anyone with *exactly* that background are minuscule. Most of the required skills are things that a competent developer is going to be able to pick up in a few days, but HR doesn't understand that, so they keep searching for that "ideal" candidate that doesn't exist. And that's not even getting into HR's tendency to embellish the list to the point of creating utterly nonsensical requirements ("Minimum 6 years experience in XML application development...") The last time I got interviewed by an actual developer, they asked me such basic questions that I don't know how they could possibly have differentiated my answers from those of any of the other candidates. They had me write a "hello world" CGI script in Perl. (Literally: #!/usr/bin/perl print "Content-type: text/html\n\n"; print "Hello, World!"; __END__ And it turned out their server was configured to add the HTTP headers automatically, so I had to go back and take out the first print statement to make it work correctly.) Then they had me write an "insert" statement in SQL. That was about as technical as it got. (It wasn't until after I was driving home that I realized how stupid I had been for not volunteering to demonstrate more technical knowledge than they had asked me to. At the end of the interview I should have said: "What? That's it? Don't you want me to explain how to instantiate an object in Perl? or do multiple inheritance? or explain the difference between lexical and package variables? or explain normalization, what 3rd Normal Form is, and why it's a Good Thing? or... or... or..." If I'd just taken a little more initiative, I'd probably have a job right now, instead of sitting here on my unemployed ass airing my opinions on SPUG...) -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From showell at zipcon.com Thu Nov 15 11:42:31 2001 From: showell at zipcon.com (Steve Howell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: yet another SPUG survey Message-ID: <3BF3FE87.CF92E401@zipcon.com> I think the job market is on a lot of our minds. Here are some questions I have: 1) Has anybody found a job in the last four months? 2) How long does a typical job search take? 3) How many people work at companies that have done layoffs? 4) How are the independent contractors perceiving the market? 5) Is there any good news? 6) What are things to watch out for in the job search? Thanks, Steve Howell - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From banshee at banshee.com Thu Nov 15 11:54:36 2001 From: banshee at banshee.com (James Moore) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c16dfe$bb6a2120$697ba8c0@banshee.com> > The last time I got interviewed by an actual developer, they asked me > such basic questions that I don't know how they could possibly have > differentiated my answers from those of any of the other candidates. > They had me write a "hello world" CGI script in Perl. I'm guessing you haven't done a whole lot of interviewing as in hiring, not looking for a job. You'd be completely astonished at how often people can't solve the most trivial programming questions in interviews. When I ask people to write basic code in an interview (things like write ls -R in perl or something similar) I'm looking for two things. Can they write any code at all? People who can usually look at me like "you want me to write what?" and then I explain that what I want them to do is take the opportunity to talk about how they do code development and this is a good hook to do it with. The actual code written is meaningless and instantly forgotten. - James - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From davidpa at avaya.com Thu Nov 15 12:29:57 2001 From: davidpa at avaya.com (Patterson, David S (Pat)) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? Message-ID: <34D5B8848AEDE44ABAED1C52C1F04DC21590C6@WA2005AVEXU1.global.avaya.com> I've done quite a bit of technical interviewing (ending about 9 months ago, sadly). Personally I don't like to give programming problems. I've found that the only thing this accomplishes is to induce a great deal of anxiety in the interviewee. I prefer to give debug problems instead, and have them verbalize the debug process. I also ask them about what their "pet peeves" are in debugging others code. To get at design capability, I instead have them describe in detail the development process they went through on a past project, and what their top design concerns would be in tackling an abstract problem or two. This approach is gentler and gives a very good indication of a person's experience, interests, skills, and temperment. --- "There are three ways to get things done: do it yourself, hire someone to do it, or forbid your kids to do it..." D. S. "Pat" Patterson Software Engineer Avaya, Inc. davidpa@avaya.com -----Original Message----- From: James Moore [mailto:banshee@banshee.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:55 AM To: 'Seattle Perl Users Group' Subject: RE: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? > The last time I got interviewed by an actual developer, they asked me > such basic questions that I don't know how they could possibly have > differentiated my answers from those of any of the other candidates. > They had me write a "hello world" CGI script in Perl. I'm guessing you haven't done a whole lot of interviewing as in hiring, not looking for a job. You'd be completely astonished at how often people can't solve the most trivial programming questions in interviews. When I ask people to write basic code in an interview (things like write ls -R in perl or something similar) I'm looking for two things. Can they write any code at all? People who can usually look at me like "you want me to write what?" and then I explain that what I want them to do is take the opportunity to talk about how they do code development and this is a good hook to do it with. The actual code written is meaningless and instantly forgotten. - James - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From phil at hivnet.fhcrc.org Thu Nov 15 14:23:18 2001 From: phil at hivnet.fhcrc.org (Phil Kirsch) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? Message-ID: <200111152023.MAA13505@scharp.fhcrc.org> I interviewed several people for a job 2 to 3 months ago. At least 8 of the applicants were highly qualified. We still havn't filled the position for internal bureaucratic reasons. Similar things are probably going on in other organizations, and probably always have. It just feels worse when you're on the street. Phil - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From starfire at zipcon.net Thu Nov 15 16:19:57 2001 From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey Message-ID: <018d01c16e23$d3d5cf00$1e88ddd1@aciwin> Thanks for taking time to participate. The actual results (below) aren't too surprising, but some of the comments (excerpts below) were enlightening. I'd be interested in seeing some discussion (on the list) on questions like: * What would your ideal workspace look like? * How did your workspace at your previous employer contribute to or hinder your productivity? * If you did not communicate this to management at your previous employer, why not? * If you did, what was the response / action? Survey results (41 respondents): Workspace: 1. Private cubicle 49% 2. Shared cubicle 12% 3. Private office 24% 4. Shared office 15% 5. Open bullpen or lab 0% 6. Other 0% Window: 7. Have a window as part of your workspace 30% 8. Are close to a window 32.5% 9. Have no window 37.5% Excerpted comments from survey responses: my theory is that shared offices are best, as long as they're big enough that you've got enough room for two people- then you have an instant code review partner. (: private office w/ windows, monitors facing away from hallway, so I can be very productive or very not. seriously, i find it pretty productive, and the other lead developer has the office next to me, so we just talk through the wall. I worked in a cube at my last job and it sucked. It was so noisy from people talking, shooting off Nerf guns, etc.., that it was a major factor in my decision to leave. For what it's worth, I had a private office when I used to work at and I was much more productive because there was no distracting noise of neighboring conversations. I think I've been most productive at home where I could work in my own office with little interruption (while kids were in school, anyways :)). I find cubicles way too distracting - I distract myself well enough and don't need others to help me :). AT IDEAL It was one big long room, and everyone had his/her own private workstation, chair, desk, storage area, but they weren't really "cubicles" because they all opened into the long wide center isle. One of the long walls was a huge window, and yes, I sat right next to it, but even when I was first hired (and sat across the room from the window) it was easy to look out the window (I crave that natural lighting, even if it is through glass). There was no "piped in" music. The place was quiet as a library when everyone was working hard. Many employees listened to music with headphones. When the workload wasn't as great, there was more occasional chatting across the room, and no one complained as long as it wasn't too constant or too loud: At LESS THAN IDEAL , I had a shared, VERY TINY office (2 people), no window. Yes, I did like my officemate. I brought a rotating fish lamp to replace the window I didn't have so that when my eyes got tired of the monitor I would have something to look away at, and I brought in an incandescent lamp to replace the sunlight I would miss (the overhead was - YUCK - fluorescent). Cheers, Richard Anderson - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Thu Nov 15 21:45:15 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Programming questions at an interview Message-ID: <3BF48BCB.75B78285@oz.net> On the occasions that I have been the Interviewer I have tended to stick with very basic programming questions, and in the language that the person is most familiar with. I remember when I was interviewed at Microsoft a number of years ago and the interviewer asked me to write quicksort in 'C' using typedefs. Well, I had been out of school long enough that I could not remember the algorithm for quick sort and the interview was all down hill from there. By the way the "Cobalt Group" is hiring. I interviewed with them yesterday and was able to answer about 2/3s of their Perl related questions. Quite honestly it had a lot to do with the context in which I last used Perl, DBD/DBI in CGI scripts to several databases. So the bulk of the work really ended up being SQL statements. The question I really blew it on was with regular expressions, since in the context of what I was last doing I really had no occasion to use that part of PERL. Since the regular expression syntax in PERL is not the same as the Unix shell , I always end up getting confused about the syntax and end up looking it up in the 'Little Black Book'(plug for my favorite PERL quick reference). Oh Well, I guess I will not be working at Cobalt, and it actually sounded like a very interesting position. When interviewing someone, what I want to determine is whether that person is capable and hard working. If someone already knows a couple of languages, I assume they can pick up a new one in short order. Just my 2 cents. Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Fri Nov 16 03:55:18 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <000001c16dfe$bb6a2120$697ba8c0@banshee.com> References: <000001c16dfe$bb6a2120$697ba8c0@banshee.com> Message-ID: At 9:54 AM -0800 11/15/01, James Moore wrote: > > The last time I got interviewed by an actual developer, they asked me >> such basic questions that I don't know how they could possibly have >> differentiated my answers from those of any of the other candidates. >> They had me write a "hello world" CGI script in Perl. > >I'm guessing you haven't done a whole lot of interviewing as in hiring, not >looking for a job. You'd be completely astonished at how often people can't >solve the most trivial programming questions in interviews. Don't get me wrong: I completely understand *starting* with simple questions. My gripe was that, after demonstrating minimal technical competence, I felt that the interview didn't give me an opportunity to differentiate myself from any of the other minimally-competent candidates that they interviewed. (Though again, I acknowledge partial responsibility for not taking the initiative to do that differentiating on my own, regardless of what questions I got asked.) At 10:29 AM -0800 11/15/01, Patterson, David S (Pat) wrote: >I've done quite a bit of technical interviewing >(ending about 9 months ago, sadly). Personally >I don't like to give programming problems. I've >found that the only thing this accomplishes is to >induce a great deal of anxiety in the interviewee. As an interviewer, I think the key to reducing the anxiety-level in an interview is to explain as carefully as possible, with every question, *why* you're asking that question, what sort of things you're looking for, and especially what sort of things you're *not* looking for. For me, when I'm being interviewed, the anxiety usually comes from being given vague questions which could be answered in many different ways, and not knowing what sort of information the interviewer is actually looking for. For example, if I'm given a programming problem and no other information, I have no idea whether I'm being judged simply on my ability to understand the spec, or on the efficiency of my code, or its legibility, or on just how much of the perldoc I know by heart, or whether I can find the most "perl-ish" solutions (e.g. using map() instead of foreach() in situations where either will work just as well), or my ability to explain what I'm doing in plain English, or my willingness to ask for further guidance, or... what? If I were going to ask a candidate to write some code, for example, I would first ask them what their preferred Perl reference works were: the Camel book? typing perldoc at a shell prompt? www.perl.com? I would then try to make as many of those resources available as I could, and make it very clear that I didn't expect them to have the perldoc memorized, only that they know how to look up whatever information they need. *Then* I would ask them to code quicksort using nothing but scalars, or whatever. (And I would explain the quicksort algorithm, too: that's not something I would expect a candidate to have memorized either.) It's also important to keep in mind that even very experienced programmers may have very different backgrounds than you: you may be surprised how many things that you consider "basic" and that "any Perl programmer would know" are in fact fairly obscure, and only seem ubiquitous because of the peculiarities of the development work you yourself have done. In fact, certain kinds of ignorance are a sign of *greater* experience, not less: I've been doing web dev for years and years now. But interviewers often have a hard time believing that I'm a competent web developer, because I know very little about using CGI.pm. The fact is, when I started doing web dev, there *was* no CGI.pm -- or at least it wasn't part of the standard Perl distribution -- so I had to roll my own solutions, solutions which I still use in lieu of CGI.pm (whose API I really dislike, but that's another thread). -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From brianmaddux at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 07:57:17 2001 From: brianmaddux at yahoo.com (Brian Maddux) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Programming questions at an interview In-Reply-To: <3BF48BCB.75B78285@oz.net> Message-ID: <20011116135717.16262.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> I'm one of those people that just doesn't do that well in an interview where I have to come up with code on the spot. I'm a relatively fast coder, especially in Perl, but I tend to write little test programs, look stuff up in my library of Perl books, and in general think about the problem. I absolutely *hate* to have someone sit and stare at me while I work through a problem. One of the problems is that a fairly simple program to you, might be something new to me (ie. 'ls -R' in Perl). Give me a book and 10 minutes or so with a computer, and I'll have it. Give me a pencil and paper, and forget it. Its just not something I normally do, so I'd probably get it wrong the first time around. I do a great job for my employer, and my clients, but in too many technical interviews, I feel like a bumbling fool. They just don't portray reality. At the same time, I know people who interview great. They come off as very knowledgable, technically skilled and energetic. But when they actual sit down to work, they are horrible. They don't work hard, they talk too much, and they know the buzzwords and concepts, but can't write a program to save their life! As someone who's interviewed, and been interviewed, I don't like to do either. I have never been in an interview (either side) that I think any of the real abilities of the applicant have been discovered. So, here's a possible suggest for an upcoming meeting. Does anyone know an "expert" in technical interviews? I'm not talking about a self-proclaimed expert, but someone you know, possibly have seen at work, and feel they were able to get to the heart of the matter. I think enough of us have been on both sides of the table to be interested in a talk both sides. Brian Maddux ASIX, Inc. --- Marion Scott Warner wrote: > On the occasions that I have been the Interviewer I > have tended to stick > with very basic programming questions, and in the > language that the > person is most familiar with. I remember when I was > interviewed > at Microsoft a number of years ago and the > interviewer asked me to write > quicksort in 'C' using typedefs. > Well, I had been out of school long enough that I > could not remember the > algorithm for quick sort and the interview was all > down hill from there. > > By the way the "Cobalt Group" is hiring. I > interviewed with them > yesterday and was able to answer about 2/3s of their > Perl related > questions. Quite honestly it had a lot to do with > the context in which I > last used Perl, DBD/DBI in CGI scripts to several > databases. So the bulk > of the work really ended up being SQL statements. > The question I really > blew it on was with regular expressions, since in > the context of what I > was last doing I really had no occasion to use that > part of PERL. Since > the regular expression syntax in PERL is not the > same as the Unix shell > , I always end up getting confused about the syntax > and end up looking > it up in the 'Little Black Book'(plug for my > favorite PERL quick > reference). Oh Well, I guess I will not be working > at Cobalt, and it > actually sounded like a very interesting position. > > When interviewing someone, what I want to determine > is whether that > person is capable and hard working. > If someone already knows a couple of languages, I > assume they can pick > up a new one in short order. > Just my 2 cents. > > Scott W. > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: > owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: > ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL > by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for > weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: > http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From showell at zipcon.com Fri Nov 16 09:07:18 2001 From: showell at zipcon.com (Steve Howell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: interviewing coders References: <20011116135717.16262.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF52BA6.BD6F0EA8@zipcon.com> Here is a suggestion for interviewing coders. Pull up a project that you're working on. Let the interviewee pull their chair around to your side of the desk. Drive for a while, explaining your role on the project. Show the interviewee a few data files, or let them run the interface a couple times, to get their head around it. Once they're comfortable, pull up some code. Find a module in your code that is relatively clean. Demonstrate to the interviewee how you add a feature. Let them drive as you put your change through the paces. Let them get comfortable with your environment. Once they're completely comfortable with the environment, ask them to make a similar small change. See how well they handle it. But, realize that they're still battling the environment. Walk them through any rough spots, so that they get all the way through that. After that warmup, a candidate should be able to open up and have a more meaningful conversation. They have seen you do your actual job, so they now has the correct reference point. If they are clearly unqualified, you'll probably have scared them away with your own code. If they are qualified, they might be able to say things like, oh, I used that exact same module, but in a much different way... And so on. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From banshee at banshee.com Fri Nov 16 14:15:13 2001 From: banshee at banshee.com (James Moore) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002301c16edb$67b51b60$697ba8c0@banshee.com> > The fact is, when I started doing web dev, there *was* > no CGI.pm -- or at least it wasn't part of the standard Perl > distribution -- so I had to roll my own solutions, solutions which I > still use in lieu of CGI.pm (whose API I really dislike, but that's > another thread). > Interesting - that's exactly the kind of thing that I would love to have come up in an interview. Unfortunately, I'd put it in the "case of not-invented-here syndrome" category. In any case, though, talking about it would certainly give both of us a fair amount of information, and would hopefully let us decide if we could work together effectively. It's the kind of thing where a decision to hire or not to hire may be based more on differences in technical philosophy than in coding competence. That's not a bad thing, though - interviews are mostly about deciding whether or not you can work with this group of people, from both sides. You may not be happy in a situation where people would haul you out into a dark alley if you won't use CGI.pm :-). Someone else suggested that simple programming questions are bad because they may not know the material suggested. I'm not likely to ask anything that you couldn't do in raw perl, without any modules. I'm also likely to cut you a huge amount of slack for things like routine names - writing "routine_to_get_the_next_directory_entry" is fine, since I'm going to assume you can read perl doc if you forget about opendir/readdir. I want to know your thought processes, not whether or not you remember particular routines. If you're not able to write simple code, immediately, and under a little bit of pressure, though, that's a strike against you. And as for reducing the stress level in interviews, maybe I'm too harsh, but I'm not sure I'm concerned about that. You're going to be dealing with stress on the job sometimes, and if you're a basket case in an interview I'm probably going to think the same thing's going to happen in other situations. I find when I'm looking for a job, the single thing that makes the most difference in my stress level is remembering that I'm interviewing them every bit as much as they're interviewing me. I want to know if I'm going to enjoy working with them, and I'm perfectly willing to grill the people on the other side of the table. And always remember to ask the person giving the interview whether or not they like working there. Most of the time you'll get some sort of stock answer, but occasionally you'll be surprised. I had someone tell me once several years ago that the company was a horrible place to work, with a fairly credible explanation as to why. It was sort of awkward turning down the job when they offered it to me, since I couldn't exactly tell the hiring manager that Joe Schmoe explained why the place sucked. - James - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From humbaba9 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 19:20:18 2001 From: humbaba9 at yahoo.com (Meryll Larkin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: HR problems & solutions (off topic) In-Reply-To: <000001c16dfe$bb6a2120$697ba8c0@banshee.com> Message-ID: <20011117012018.5467.qmail@web12801.mail.yahoo.com> 11/16/01 Hi James & All, I haven't been getting many interviews, but when I do, I find I have the *WORST* time dealing with HRs, but I have learned some things that might be worth sharing since it seems many of us are in the same boat (I guess I can risk reducing my "competitive edge" if I'm benefiting my fellow SPUGsters). HRs don't think like I do. I'm very literal. So if some HR said this to me: "write some basic code like ls -R in perl". I'd first need clarification and I'd say "ls - R is Unix or Linux. Would you like me to write the equivalent in a Perl script or fork it into a Perl script?" At which point the HR gets pissed off because I've pointed out a shortcoming of his or hers (either that he/she doesn't know the difference between Unix/Linux and Perl or that he/she doesn't know how to use precise language). Either way, I have now become a "smart ass" and I'm not going to get the job. Had I said exactly the same thing in exactly the same tone to a programmer, he/she would have answered "Good! What I'd like you to do is this:...." And I would have done it and all would be fine - I'd probably get the job. Here's what I do. I try my best to relate to HR people as though they are the absolute experts in corporate culture for their companies (and keep them so busy telling me how much they know about the company that they leave the skill screening to the people who can really do it - my future supervisor and/or coworkers). If they ask me "where do I see myself in 5 years?" I give them a short safe answer and then ask them what opportunities I might have in the company in 5 years. Etc, etc. My worst mistake is that I am often too honest with HR people (these people want to see the salesperson in you) and give them too much information about myself (and they have no idea how to deal with a person with multiple facets, interests, and personal complexity). For HR people, KIS. HR people think they are trying to match personalities. Personally, I have found (with the exception of a few programmers who have incredibly swelled egos) that almost all programmers are similar to myself: in the work place I can get along with anyone (A-N-Y-O-N-E) who codes to good standards and isn't trying to make my job more difficult. In fact, the more I respect someone's abilities at work, the more I tend to like that person, even if we don't have much in common in other ways. Comments? Meryll Larkin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From james at banshee.com Fri Nov 16 20:01:04 2001 From: james at banshee.com (James Moore) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: HR problems & solutions (off topic) References: <20011117012018.5467.qmail@web12801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF5C4E0.3010400@banshee.com> I've never worked for a non-high-tech company, so your mileage may vary. HR people have little or no impact on the hiring process once you've got an interview. Be completely innocuous with them. No one cares about their opinion, and they have virtually no say in whether or not you get hired. In fact, I don't ever recall them even having an opinion to care about or not. Their job is to go through fairly simple checklists like "are you actually willing to move to the city where the job is located?" and to push paper around to make sure everyone's 401k money goes to the right place. It's useful paper pushing, and I'm glad someone other than me likes to do it, but don't think they're the reason you're going to get a job or not. Some places they're heavily involved in the salary negotiations, but that's only after other people decided they want you. In a large company, they can slow down or speed up the actual hiring process once someone else has made a decision. They're the people who do things like make sure there's actually an open rec for you to fill. But they're only going to turn you down for internal business reasons (i.e., someone yanked the budget for your position without telling the hiring manager), not because they think you're (in)competent. - James - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From scott at sabmail.rresearch.com Fri Nov 16 22:04:54 2001 From: scott at sabmail.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <002301c16edb$67b51b60$697ba8c0@banshee.com>; from banshee@banshee.com on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:15:13PM -0800 References: <002301c16edb$67b51b60$697ba8c0@banshee.com> Message-ID: <20011116200453.A12622@sabami.seaslug.org> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:15:13PM -0800, James Moore wrote: > And as for reducing the stress level in interviews, maybe I'm too harsh, but > I'm not sure I'm concerned about that. You're going to be dealing with > stress on the job sometimes, and if you're a basket case in an interview I'm > probably going to think the same thing's going to happen in other > situations. Well...that depends on the temperament of the poeple involved. I tend to be a lot more at ease with people I know, so working as a team under a stressful deadline is a lot different than being in a stressful situation focused on me. > I find when I'm looking for a job, the single thing that makes the most > difference in my stress level is remembering that I'm interviewing them > every bit as much as they're interviewing me. I want to know if I'm going > to enjoy working with them, and I'm perfectly willing to grill the people > on the other side of the table. I've never really had to find a job in a tight market, so I've never gone into an interview thinking "I really have to have THIS job". Between that and having reasonable communications skills, I haven't had any problems. I still hate interviews, though (from either side)...never have really figured out a good approach to being the interviewer. Ah well... Scott - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mbcpro at hanmir.com Sat Nov 17 05:07:01 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMzFw7Gz?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIHNwdWctbGlzdLTUIL7Is+fHz73KtM+x7j8=?= Message-ID: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????! ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????. ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????. ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???????. Copyright 2001 www.missnude.co.kr Allright Reserved ? ??? ?????? ??? ???????. ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ( * ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011117/2ad03524/attachment.htm From jason at strangelight.com Sat Nov 17 08:57:58 2001 From: jason at strangelight.com (Jason Lamport) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Why aren't they hiring? In-Reply-To: <002301c16edb$67b51b60$697ba8c0@banshee.com> References: <002301c16edb$67b51b60$697ba8c0@banshee.com> Message-ID: At 12:15 PM -0800 11/16/01, James Moore wrote: > > The fact is, when I started doing web dev, there *was* >> no CGI.pm -- or at least it wasn't part of the standard Perl >> distribution -- so I had to roll my own solutions, solutions which I >> still use in lieu of CGI.pm (whose API I really dislike, but that's >> another thread). >> > >Interesting - that's exactly the kind of thing that I would love to have >come up in an interview. Unfortunately, I'd put it in the "case of >not-invented-here syndrome" category. In any case, though, talking about it >would certainly give both of us a fair amount of information, and would >hopefully let us decide if we could work together effectively. It's the >kind of thing where a decision to hire or not to hire may be based more on >differences in technical philosophy than in coding competence. That's not a >bad thing, though - interviews are mostly about deciding whether or not you >can work with this group of people, from both sides. You may not be happy >in a situation where people would haul you out into a dark alley if you >won't use CGI.pm :-). Note: I only said that I disliked the API, not that I'd refuse to use it. And I should have clarified: "...solutions which I still use in lieu of CGI.pm *when working on my own solo projects.*" The few times that I've collaborated with another developer on a CGI script, we *have* used CGI.pm. I'm not the sort who's going to try to impose my preferences on other members of a development team. (Ironically, perhaps, I think this is one case where a bit of cockiness on my part actually makes me more agreeable to work with: while I would never state this so bluntly to my co-workers, I personally consider myself a better programmer than 98% of the other programmers out there. Because of this, I just assume that it will be much easier for me to adapt my coding style to accommodate other developers than for other developers to adapt their coding style to accommodate me. Again, I would never state this so bluntly in a work situation: I think my colleagues are likely to perceive only that I'm very willing to do whatever I can to make their jobs easier. They don't need to know that that willingness comes from my secret belief that they need all the help they can get... ;) > > I'm also likely to >cut you a huge amount of slack for things like routine names - writing >"routine_to_get_the_next_directory_entry" is fine, since I'm going to assume >you can read perl doc if you forget about opendir/readdir. But I think you should make that explicit at the beginning, otherwise the interviewee is likely to waste a lot of brain cycles worrying about their ignorance of the syntax for opendir/readdir, rather than focusing on the real problem and giving you the information that you're actually looking for. Remember that the good candidates are the ones who honestly believe that they are the best candidate for the position, and so are going to be *eager* to give you the information that you need to make a good decision. Whatever you can do to *help* those candidates provide you with that information (without giving the bullshitters too much fodder for bluffing their way through) is going to help you as well. (And personally, I wouldn't just assume that someone can read perldoc. It's far more important to me that a candidate know how to find and then use information that they don't already have than that they know everything already. I might ask them some extremely arcane question about Perl syntax just to see how they go about finding the answer... but again, I would try to make it clear that that was what I was doing.) > >And as for reducing the stress level in interviews, maybe I'm too harsh, but >I'm not sure I'm concerned about that. You're going to be dealing with >stress on the job sometimes, and if you're a basket case in an interview I'm >probably going to think the same thing's going to happen in other >situations. The problem with that attitude is that the sorts of stresses one encounters during a tough interview are *completely* different from the sorts of stresses one encounters in an actual work situation. How often in an actual work situation do you have a supervisor looking over your shoulder, examining every single line of code you write *as you write it*; and all the while you know that your continued employment at that company is largely contingent on whether that supervisor likes what they see, based on some set of criteria of which you are only vaguely cognizant? It sounds more like a Dilbert-esque nightmare than a normal work day -- yet that's approximately the situation into which the average job interview puts the candidate. Just because a candidate performs poorly in that sort of an interview situation does not mean that they will perform poorly on the job. I'm all for "stress-testing" a candidate, provided that the stresses are *realistic*, i.e. that they are significantly similar to the sorts of stresses that the person will be facing on the job. But I think that, the way interviews are usually conducted, they rarely are. -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Sat Nov 17 09:37:37 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: spam on SPUG: ?[??] spug-list? ??????? In-Reply-To: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> References: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> Message-ID: Is it my imagination, or has SPUG been getting a lot more spam recently? Is there anything that can be done about this? E.g. what about making SPUG a closed list so that non-members can't post? I know this causes problems for people with multiple addresses, but I also know that at least some listserv software allows members to register multiple aliases. Does the software we use (majordomo?) allow this? If not, how difficult would it be to switch? -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Nov 18 12:21:30 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: spam on SPUG: ?[??] spug-list? ??????? In-Reply-To: ; from dancerboy on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:37:37AM -0800 References: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> Message-ID: <20011118102130.A4331@timji.consultix.wa.com> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:37:37AM -0800, dancerboy wrote: > Is it my imagination, or has SPUG been getting a lot more spam > recently? Is there anything that can be done about this? What SPUG-spam have you seen? I haven't noticed anything in ages, so unless I've overlooked something, I'd have to say it's just your imagination, as you suggest. > E.g. what about making SPUG a closed list so that non-members can't > post? I know this causes problems for people with multiple > addresses, but I also know that at least some listserv software > allows members to register multiple aliases. Does the software we > use (majordomo?) allow this? If not, how difficult would it be to > switch? > > -jason In response to some spam messages last year, I proposed closing the list, and the consensus was that the subscribers would rather have a little spam than give up their ability to easily manage multiple addresses. The maintenance of the SPUG-list is provided for free by the Perl Mongers folks (pm.org), who handle all the Perl mongers lists identically, so we'd have to run it ourselves to use listserv. Personally, I think we need all the free help we can get, and that the SPUG list is doing okay as it is, with no compelling reason to change anything at this time. -Tim *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | EMAIL: tim@consultix-inc.com WEB: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: UNIX/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl COLIN MEYER: Perl CGI/DBI | |UPCOMING CLASSES: "Perl Programing, plus Modules", 12/3-12/6/01, Kirkland| | /etc/cotd: find /earth -follow -name bin_laden -print | xargs rm -rf | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From bill at celestial.com Sun Nov 18 12:45:49 2001 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: spam on SPUG: ?[??] spug-list? ??????? In-Reply-To: <20011118102130.A4331@timji.consultix.wa.com>; from tim@consultix-inc.com on Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:21:30AM -0800 References: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> <20011118102130.A4331@timji.consultix.wa.com> Message-ID: <20011118104549.A10194@barryg.mi.celestial.com> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:21:30AM -0800, Tim Maher/CONSULTIX wrote: >On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:37:37AM -0800, dancerboy wrote: >> Is it my imagination, or has SPUG been getting a lot more spam >> recently? Is there anything that can be done about this? > >What SPUG-spam have you seen? I haven't noticed anything in >ages, so unless I've overlooked something, I'd have to say it's >just your imagination, as you suggest. I've seen a few things come through, most recently something in one of the oriental languages that didn't make much sense. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.'' - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Sun Nov 18 17:05:55 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Spam Message-ID: <3BF83ED3.DA32EB2F@oz.net> Well, have not seen enough spam to be too disturbed about it. What was that Korean porno site all about? I couldn't read any of it, but some of the pictures were sort of nice :) Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Sun Nov 18 17:44:55 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: spam on SPUG: ?[??] spug-list? ??????? References: <200111171105.fAHB5OW15441@gocho.pm.org> <20011118102130.A4331@timji.consultix.wa.com> Message-ID: <87adxj3aq0.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Tim Maher/CONSULTIX writes: | What SPUG-spam have you seen? I haven't noticed anything in ages, so unless | I've overlooked something, I'd have to say it's just your imagination, as you | suggest. >From the last 500 spams I've received: 2001/08/07: SPUG: VENTURE CAPITAL 2001/08/20: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters 2001/09/11: SPUG: [??????spug-list??????????[m t? ? 2001/09/11: SPUG: [??????spug-list??????????[m t? ? 2001/09/28: SPUG: Conference calls/best quality/$.18 per minute! 2001/10/09: SPUG: [??????????????????? 2001/10/11: SPUG: Iper1 per l'e-commerce 2001/10/27: SPUG: SEXWEB NO.1 .. MEGAWEB-SEX ! 2001/10/31: SPUG: ????????? 7?????9???... 2001/11/10: SPUG: [??????BC?????????????? ?????????CD??? ???????4?? 2001/11/13: SPUG: [???????????????????????????????m 2001/11/17: SPUG: [??????spug-list??????????[m 6.47]> The pace does seem to be picking up a little (two in August, three in September, four in October, and three halfway through November). I do wish the pm.org lists would show the full Received headers so that proper complaints could be made; without those, I don't even have the satisfaction of trying to get them shut down. In fact, I've been getting so much spam from Chinese and South Korean servers with unresponsive and incompetent sysadmins that I've just been banning .cn and .kr from my email server on a wholesale basis lately. My rejection message lists alternative contact information for cases of legitimate traffic, but truthfully, I've never gotten any legitimate traffic from .kr or .cn. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From pfarrall at gis.usu.edu Sun Nov 18 17:47:08 2001 From: pfarrall at gis.usu.edu (Paul Farrall) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?SPAM!_SPUG=3A_=5B=B1=A4=B0=ED=5D_spug-list=B4=D4_?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?=BE=C8=B3=E7=C7=CF=BD=CA=B4=CF=B1=EE=3F_=28fwd=29?= Message-ID: Tim, It's not just his imagination. The message below came yesterday. That said, it doesn't seem like it's a big enough problem to bother changing the list config over. Paul Farrall ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:07:01 +0900 From: "[ks_c_5601-1987] 이택교" To: spug-list@pm.org Subject: SPUG: [ks_c_5601-1987] [광고] spug-list님 안녕하십니까? ★☆★ 순수국내모델 직접찍는 ◎미스누드◎ ★☆★ 안녕하세요! 불쑥 이렇게 메일을 드려서 죄송합니다. 저희 미스누드가 패티쉬 명예를 내걸고 이렇게 오픈하게 되었습니다. 아슬아슬한 묘미를 즐길수 있는 컨덴츠로 여러분께 다가가겠습니다. Copyright 2001 www.missnude.co.kr Allright Reserved 이 메일은 미스누드에서 드리는 광고메일입니다. 앞으로 이런 광고메일 수신을 원치않으시면 메일수신거부 메일을 보내주세요 ( * 메일수신을 원치 않으시면 버튼을 눌러주세요 ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Sun Nov 18 18:28:37 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Nov. Meeting: Tim's "Intro. to OO Perl" Message-ID: <20011118162837.A6769@timji.consultix.wa.com> NOVEMBER SPUG TALK Title: Intro. to Object Oriented Perl Speaker: Tim Maher, CONSULTIX (tim@consultix-inc.com) Time: November 20th, 2001 (Third Tuesday), 7pm-9pm Location: Safeco Auditorium, Safeco Building Cost: Free! ** NOTE: New location! See details below ** - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DESCRIPTION Unlike other programming languages, Perl doesn't require its users to employ a particular method of programming. Instead, it accommodates both the classic "Procedural" and newer "Object-Oriented" approaches. In this talk, Tim will cover the basics of OO Perl, using excerpts from the 1.5 day CONSULTIX course on the subject. Covered topics will include: Constructors, Destructors, Encapsulation, Data Hiding, Inheritance, and Polymorphism. All interested parties are welcome to attend, but Intermediate-level Perl knowledge (hashes, references, complex data structures, map/grep, etc.) will be required to understand the details of the talk. ABOUT THE SPEAKER During the last two decades, Dr. Tim Maher has taught programming to thousands of high-tech professionals. As a Professor of Computer Science, and later as a Software Instructor for AT&T, Sun, DEC, HP, and CONSULTIX, Dr. Maher has consistently earned acclaim for his highly effective and entertaining style of course development and presentation. LOCATION Thanks to the generous efforts of the always helpful Andy and Dora Sweger (Andy's the en-hat'ed one in: seattleperl.org/n2h2.html), we'll be trying out a new meeting location this month: the SAFECO building at the corner of Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St. The SAFECO Tower is the largest structure in this area, near the Univ. of Washington, and as such is easy to spot once you get close. For those unfamiliar with this location, look for the label "Safeco Plaza Tower" in the top/center portion of this map: http://transit.metrokc.gov/uw/muw_routes.html There's a convenient (paid) parking lot just South of the building with entrances from Broadway and University Way streets, and street parking if you're lucky. Driving from Points North of the University District: Take I-5 south bound, exit at NE 45th Street. Turn left (east) on NE 45th Street. You should easily see the SAFECO building ahead on the right. When you reach Brooklyn Ave NE, you're there. Find a convenient parking space. Driving Prom Points East of Seattle: Take highway 520 or I-90 west, exit to north bound I-5. Follow directions for downtown Seattle below. Driving Prom Downtown Seattle: Take I-5 north bound, exit at NE 45th Street (keep right). Turn right (east) on NE 45th Street. You should easily see the SAFECO building ahead on the right. When you reach Brooklyn Ave NE, you're there. Find a convenient parking space. Finding the Meeting Room The entrance is on the Brooklyn side of the large SAFECO tower (near the NE corner of building, close to Brooklyn Ave NE & NE 45th ST). Enter through the glass revolving doors. Just inside the doors, you should see the security desk. Inform the guard that you are there for the SPUG meeting in the auditorium. The guard will have you sign the log book and give you a visitor badge or sticker. You will be directed to the mezzanine level (fourth floor) where the auditorium is located. PRE/POST MEETING GATHERING PLACE For those who can arrive early and wish to socialize with other SPUGsters before the meeting, we have designated a nearby eatery/drinkery as a gathering place: The Big Time Brewery and Alehouse (bigtimebrewery.com), at 4133 University Way NE, Seattle WA 98105. Expect SPUGsters to start trickling in about 6pm, and heading over to the meeting place at about 6:40. ============================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX/8649 | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.seattleperl.org | ============================================================= *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | EMAIL: tim@consultix-inc.com WEB: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | UPCOMING CLASSES: "Perl Prog., plus Modules", 12/3-12/6/01, Kirkland | | /etc/cotd: find /earth -follow -name bin_laden -print | xargs rm -rf | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Sun Nov 18 23:18:30 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Any work at nonprofits? Message-ID: <3BF89626.B29ACBEF@oz.net> OK, the longer I'm out of work, the more programming skills I forget. Our there any non-profit organizations in Seattle that use open source platforms, web based systems, and Perl. I may as well be doing something constructive in the programming department while I wait for the employment outlook to improve. Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From humbaba9 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 00:01:04 2001 From: humbaba9 at yahoo.com (Meryll Larkin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Any work at nonprofits? In-Reply-To: <3BF89626.B29ACBEF@oz.net> Message-ID: <20011119060104.670.qmail@web12806.mail.yahoo.com> 11/18/01 Hi Scott & All, Seattle is going to have the fanciest .org Web sites in the world (if we don't already)! I just did some volunteer work for Seattle National Organization for Women (they could probably use more help), and I'm doing some pieces of work for a few environmental sites. My thoughts were exactly the same as yours: I'd rather be beefing up my portfolio with free and nearly free work than let my skills get stale. I wouldn't mind hearing about more 501C3 or 501C4 opportunities, either. At least I can use the "donation" to lower my taxes! Meryll Larkin --- Marion Scott Warner wrote: > OK, the longer I'm out of work, the more programming > skills I forget. > Our there any non-profit organizations in Seattle > that use open source > platforms, web based systems, and Perl. I may as > well be doing something > constructive in the programming department while I > wait for the > employment outlook to improve. > > Scott W. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From thasone at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 11:35:45 2001 From: thasone at yahoo.com (c k) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Nov. Meeting: Tim's "Intro. to OO Perl" In-Reply-To: <20011118162837.A6769@timji.consultix.wa.com> Message-ID: <20011119173545.51205.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Is the pre-gathering at the alehouse before the meeting, still going on? I realized times are tight and not everyone may be game for this. --- Tim Maher/CONSULTIX wrote: > > NOVEMBER SPUG TALK > > Title: Intro. to Object Oriented Perl > Speaker: Tim Maher, CONSULTIX > (tim@consultix-inc.com) > > Time: November 20th, 2001 (Third Tuesday), > 7pm-9pm > Location: Safeco Auditorium, Safeco Building > Cost: Free! > > ** NOTE: New location! See details below ** > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - - > DESCRIPTION > > Unlike other programming languages, Perl doesn't > require its > users to employ a particular method of programming. > Instead, > it accommodates both the classic "Procedural" and > newer > "Object-Oriented" approaches. In this talk, Tim > will cover the > basics of OO Perl, using excerpts from the 1.5 day > CONSULTIX > course on the subject. > > Covered topics will include: Constructors, > Destructors, > Encapsulation, Data Hiding, Inheritance, and > Polymorphism. > > All interested parties are welcome to attend, but > Intermediate-level > Perl knowledge (hashes, references, complex data > structures, map/grep, > etc.) will be required to understand the details of > the talk. > > > ABOUT THE SPEAKER > > During the last two decades, Dr. Tim Maher has > taught programming to > thousands of high-tech professionals. As a > Professor of Computer > Science, and later as a Software Instructor for > AT&T, Sun, DEC, HP, > and CONSULTIX, Dr. Maher has consistently earned > acclaim for his > highly effective and entertaining style of course > development and > presentation. > > > LOCATION > > Thanks to the generous efforts of the always helpful > Andy and Dora > Sweger (Andy's the en-hat'ed one in: > seattleperl.org/n2h2.html), > we'll be trying out a new meeting location this > month: the SAFECO > building at the corner of Brooklyn St. and NE 45th > St. The SAFECO > Tower is the largest structure in this area, near > the Univ. of > Washington, and as such is easy to spot once you get > close. > > For those unfamiliar with this location, look for > the label > "Safeco Plaza Tower" in the top/center portion of > this map: > > http://transit.metrokc.gov/uw/muw_routes.html > > There's a convenient (paid) parking lot just South > of the building > with entrances from Broadway and University Way > streets, and street > parking if you're lucky. > > Driving from Points North of the University > District: > > Take I-5 south bound, exit at NE 45th > Street. > Turn left (east) on NE 45th Street. You > should > easily see the SAFECO building ahead on the > right. When you reach Brooklyn Ave NE, > you're > there. Find a convenient parking space. > > > Driving Prom Points East of Seattle: > > Take highway 520 or I-90 west, exit to north > bound > I-5. Follow directions for downtown Seattle > below. > > > Driving Prom Downtown Seattle: > > Take I-5 north bound, exit at NE 45th Street > (keep right). Turn right (east) on NE 45th > Street. You should easily see the SAFECO > building ahead on the right. When you reach > Brooklyn Ave NE, you're there. Find a > convenient > parking space. > > Finding the Meeting Room > > The entrance is on the Brooklyn side of the > large SAFECO tower (near the NE corner of > building, close to Brooklyn Ave NE & NE 45th > ST). Enter through the glass revolving > doors. > Just inside the doors, you should see the > security desk. Inform the guard that you are > there for the SPUG meeting in the > auditorium. > The guard will have you sign the log book > and > give you a visitor badge or sticker. You > will be > directed to the mezzanine level (fourth > floor) > where the auditorium is located. > > PRE/POST MEETING GATHERING PLACE > > For those who can arrive early and wish to socialize > with other > SPUGsters before the meeting, we have designated a > nearby > eatery/drinkery as a gathering place: > > The Big Time Brewery and Alehouse > (bigtimebrewery.com), > at 4133 University Way NE, Seattle WA 98105. > > > Expect SPUGsters to start trickling in about 6pm, > and heading > over to the meeting place at about 6:40. > > > ============================================================= > | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) > 781-UNIX/8649 | > | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: > spug@seattleperl.org | > | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: > www.seattleperl.org | > ============================================================= > > *=========================================================================* > | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) > 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | > | EMAIL: tim@consultix-inc.com WEB: > http://www.consultix-inc.com | > | UPCOMING CLASSES: "Perl Prog., plus Modules", > 12/3-12/6/01, Kirkland | > | /etc/cotd: find /earth -follow -name bin_laden > -print | xargs rm -rf | > *=========================================================================* > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: > owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: > ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL > by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for > weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: > http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Mon Nov 19 13:08:36 2001 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey Message-ID: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> Thanks for the summary! > 3. Private office 24% > 4. Shared office 15% Interesting to know that 40% of folks can still close a door on whoever's not in their office. That's not been *my* _recent_ experience, so it's good to hear that quite concentration time is still valued (as shown by the increased cost of offices) in the IT market place. I seem to remember that Demarco & Lister (in "Peopleware") suggested about 150 square feet for folks. That resonated with me. I bought a huge desk (by todays standards) just so I could spread out all my paper (specs, references, scrap paper, notes) to help me move toward the "paperless" world in my computer. I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let me work. I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time reshuffling my papers than I do putting work into the code. Any thoughts on that front? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From bill at celestial.com Mon Nov 19 13:24:25 2001 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default>; from MichaelRunningWolf@att.net on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 02:08:36PM -0500 References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> Message-ID: <20011119112425.A23977@barryg.mi.celestial.com> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 02:08:36PM -0500, Michael R. Wolf wrote: ... >I seem to remember that Demarco & Lister (in "Peopleware") suggested about >150 square feet for folks. That resonated with me. I bought a huge desk >(by todays standards) just so I could spread out all my paper (specs, >references, scrap paper, notes) to help me move toward the "paperless" world >in my computer. I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of >other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let me work. >I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time reshuffling my >papers than I do putting work into the code. The best office I had for spreading out was when I was D.P. Manager for a Navy contractor back in Silver Spring, Md. My office had a normal desk with two 6ft work tables on either side, and two 6 ft work tables behind me. In those days, everything was done on 11x14 continuous forms with punch cards for input so it was very nice to be able to spread paper all over the place. It's amazing how much paper you can spew from a 1,000 LPM printer on a main frame (and more so when I missed a period in a COBOL page-end routine that sent continuous form feeds to the printer :-). Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Government is the great fiction, through which everbody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. -- Frederic Bastiat - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Nov 19 13:47:03 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Nov. Meeting: Tim's "Intro. to OO Perl" In-Reply-To: <20011119173545.51205.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com>; from c k on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:35:45AM -0800 References: <20011118162837.A6769@timji.consultix.wa.com> <20011119173545.51205.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011119114703.B6526@timji.consultix.wa.com> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:35:45AM -0800, c k wrote: > Is the pre-gathering at the alehouse before the > meeting, still going on? I realized times are tight > and not everyone may be game for this. That pre-meeting gathering is entirely optional (as is the meeting itself). In the past, some people (whose buses arrived early, or car arrived unexpectedly early due to light traffic, etc.) have enjoyed passing the time with fellow SPUGsters, so we like to designate a meeting place. For those worried about finding other SPUGsters, I'll be there, and I'm one of the more "distinctively rendered" members, so just look for me (a cross between these two guys): www.consultix-inc.com/contact.html www.consultix-inc.com/tim_pro.html *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | EMAIL: tim@consultix-inc.com WEB: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: UNIX/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl COLIN MEYER: Perl CGI/DBI | | UPCOMING CLASSES: "Perl Prog., plus Modules", 12/3-12/6/01, Kirkland | | /etc/cotd: find /earth -follow -name bin_laden -print | xargs rm -rf | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jimfl at colltech.com Mon Nov 19 14:50:14 2001 From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> Message-ID: <996838.1006174214@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> --On Monday, November 19, 2001 2:08 PM -0500 "Michael R. Wolf" wrote: > I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of > other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let > me work. I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time > reshuffling my papers than I do putting work into the code. > > Any thoughts on that front? I think the main issue is that not all spaces are appropriate for all types of work, and the high-tech worker generally does lots of different kinds of work. For development type tasks, an office is great for "research" (i.e. web surfing) and coding binges, but sucks for code review, or smoke testing, or any collaborative sorts of tasks. Sometimes you want to be in a room full of the people you're working with, and you're in a mode where the NERF darts are kinda fun. Sometimes, you need some serious isolation. An open bullpen with tables in the center for collaborative work, and stations along the wall has a great dynamic, and you can just shout out questions and anyone who cares can answer or just ignore you. I think if I desgined a work environment, there would be several levels of oppenness. The bullpen would be the main work area, with stations assigned to individuals, common equipment in the center. Informal meetings off to the side of the same space, where the comfy chairs, couches and coffee tables and several huge whiteboards are. Nobody should think the less of you if you spend all day in the comfy chairs reading or with a laptop, as long as you get the work done. There are offices and closed meeting rooms, but they don't "belong" to anyone. You can check them out for short periods, or pop into an unoccupied one for private phone conversations. -- Jim Flanagan jimfl@colltech.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Nov 19 15:05:15 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Lightning Talks, and URL Confusion Message-ID: <20011119130515.C7219@timji.consultix.wa.com> CALL FOR LIGHTNING TALKS At our last meeting, we had a very successful launch of our new "Lightning Talks" agenda item, so we should try to keep that as a standard feature of every meeting. So anybody who wants to take a few minutes to talk about something Perlish, feel free to do so. If you want to bring projectable materials, bring them on a 3.5" diskette (or Email them to me in advance) in text, HTML, PostScript, or PDF format. (If the Internet hookup works as expected, you might not have to bring anything except your URL, but given that this is our first use of the room, I recommend bringing the diskette.) SPUG URL WEIRDNESS Allow me to clear up some confusion about the official SPUG web site(s)! 8-{ The official URL is www.seattleperl.org, or simply seattleperl.org (but *.net and *.com also work, because they point to the same place). Unfortunately, the .sig for SPUG postings shows a different URL, zipcon.net/spug, and I'm unable to change it because the PM Majordomo is still goofy. (I've asked the Perl Mongers (PM) SA to look into this, and am waiting to hear from him.) The URLs (www\.)?zipcon.net/spug and (www\.)?seattleperl.(com|org|net) are all currently being redirected to 63.249.21.144, which is a site provided for free (Hooray!) by Dan Pewzner at zipcon (but that's *not* the same as zipcon.net/spug!). John Cokos is managing the DNS service for seattleperl.*, and eventually (his email is giving a Thanksgiving Vacation reply at the moment), he'll change those sites to point to the zipcon IP as they should, so we can dispense with the current redirection. Anyway, all the different variations currently work (AFAIK), and they all show the same accurate info about tomorrow's meeting. Hope to see lots of you at tomorrow's meeting! -Tim ============================================================= | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX/8649 | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@seattleperl.org | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.seattleperl.org | ============================================================= - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From starfire at zipcon.net Mon Nov 19 17:10:47 2001 From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> Message-ID: <004501c1714f$6d4c3330$1788ddd1@aciwin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael R. Wolf" To: "SPUG" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey > I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of > other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let me work. > I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time reshuffling my > papers than I do putting work into the code. I find white boards invaluable for software work of any kind, be it requirements analysis, design, coding or whatever. I'm surprised by the number of work spaces I have seen that do not provide development teams with this obvious resource. Putting them out in the hallways encourages team interaction better than having them in offices or meeting rooms. A handy substitute is to use erasable dry markers on a window, but this is not as legible and may be frowned upon for security or other reasons. Cheers, Richard - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Mon Nov 19 21:42:18 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: <996838.1006174214@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> <996838.1006174214@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> Message-ID: At 12:50 PM -0800 11/19/01, Jim Flanagan wrote: >--On Monday, November 19, 2001 2:08 PM -0500 "Michael R. Wolf" > wrote: > > > I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of > > other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let > > me work. I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time > > reshuffling my papers than I do putting work into the code. > > > > Any thoughts on that front? > > I think the main issue is that not all spaces are appropriate for all > types of work, Or for all types of workers: what's optimal for one person may not be optimal for another, even if the two people are doing the same type of work. For example: I'm very easily distracted by conversations and other activities going on near me. I think the bullpen environment you describe wouldn't work very well for me -- I mean, I could find ways to *make* it work (a discman, noise-cancelling headphones, and a stack of good ambient CDs comes to mind) but it would not be ideal. This raises all sorts of interesting cost/benefit problems, in terms of trying to accommodate the different work-styles of a diverse group of developers; and more general questions of just how diverse a development team should be, ideally. There are obvious advantages to having a development team made up of people who all have similar work-styles: it's easier to set up all the different aspects of the development effort -- from the physical layout of the office to general procedures and guidelines -- in a way that works well for everyone, and the more similar people are, in general, the more easily and efficiently they can communicate with one another. OTOH, there are significant problems with having an overly-homogenous team as well: it can be especially difficult in such a situation to "think outside of the box", and it's extremely easy for a group of very similar people to develop collective blind-spots. > There are offices and > closed meeting rooms, but they don't "belong" to anyone. You can check > them out for short periods, or pop into an unoccupied one for private > phone conversations. One potential advantage to this that intrigues me is that one could probably equip a "collective" office much more lavishly than would be practical with most private offices. E.g. there was some talk on this thread about the importance of physical desk space. For me, I would gladly trade physical desk space for screen real-estate. I think I waste much more time shuffling the windows and icons on my desktop than I do shuffling physical objects. I just recently got a second monitor for my home office, and not only do I believe that this has made a huge improvement in my productivity, but I don't think I've even come close to maxing out the improvements that increased screen real-estate *could* make. I think I could have 4 or 5 monitors on my desk before I started seeing diminishing returns. But I'm guessing that, at most companies, it might be difficult to justify equipping each developer with a 5-monitor workstation... -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Mon Nov 19 20:40:28 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: <004501c1714f$6d4c3330$1788ddd1@aciwin> References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> <004501c1714f$6d4c3330$1788ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: At 3:10 PM -0800 11/19/01, Richard Anderson wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael R. Wolf" >To: "SPUG" >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:08 AM >Subject: Re: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey > >> I use white boards, stickeys, colored markers, and lots of >> other visuals to help solve a problem. A standard desk doesn't let me >work. >> I get into a "thrashing" problem where I spend more time reshuffling my >> papers than I do putting work into the code. > >I find white boards invaluable for software work of any kind, be it >requirements analysis, design, coding or whatever. I'm surprised by the >number of work spaces I have seen that do not provide development teams with >this obvious resource. Putting them out in the hallways encourages team >interaction better than having them in offices or meeting rooms. > >A handy substitute is to use erasable dry markers on a window, but this is >not as legible and may be frowned upon for security or other reasons. > >Cheers, >Richard > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From starfire at zipcon.net Tue Nov 20 07:28:59 2001 From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> <996838.1006174214@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> Message-ID: <00de01c171c7$684dbc00$1788ddd1@aciwin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "dancerboy" To: "Jim Flanagan" ; "SPUG" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:42 PM Subject: Re: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey > For example: I'm very easily distracted by conversations and other > activities going on near me. I think the bullpen environment you > describe wouldn't work very well for me -- I mean, I could find ways > to *make* it work (a discman, noise-cancelling headphones, and a > stack of good ambient CDs comes to mind) but it would not be ideal. > That's what I thought, until I actually worked in a large bullpen area. I found it quite nice for several reasons. First of all, one-half of the wall space were windows looking out onto a nice view of Elliot Bay. Secondly, I was able to see if my other team members were at their work stations and available for discussions simply by turning my head, instead of having to drop what I was doing and walk down the hall. The noise thing was an issue - I handled it by wearing both earplugs (the soft waxy kind work best for me) AND headphones tuned to my favorite CDs or radio stations. > For me, I > would gladly trade physical desk space for screen real-estate. I > think I waste much more time shuffling the windows and icons on my > desktop than I do shuffling physical objects. I just recently got a > second monitor for my home office, and not only do I believe that > this has made a huge improvement in my productivity, but I don't > think I've even come close to maxing out the improvements that > increased screen real-estate *could* make. I think I could have 4 or > 5 monitors on my desk before I started seeing diminishing returns. > Interesting idea. I generally address this concern by using the multiple desktops that Gnome and CDE provide (and Windows has yet to provide - grrr!). Wouldn't you get neck strain from swivelling your head to look at 5 different monitors? Or are you talking about a long table with 5 workstations and 5 chairs? I agree that the current monitors are too small and don't have enough resolution. Also, they are too bulky and difficult to position easily. But desktop ergonomics are improving, and I look forward to lightweight flat-panel displays that are large, high-res, easy on the eyes and easy to position. I'd also like to be able to code in other positions other than this straight-backed sitting one and input code in other ways besides typing. Cheers, Richard - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Tue Nov 20 09:59:25 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: getting filesystem info? (a la File::Spec) Message-ID: So, I'm trying to create a module that will, in effect, tell you everything you could possibly want to know about how to construct legal file- and path-names on the current filesystem. Specifically: 1) the directory-separator 2) maximum filename length 3) whether filenames are case-sensitive 4) if not, whether filenames are case-preserving (e.g. MacOS) 5) what characters are or are not legal in filenames 6) other restrictions on filenames (e.g. DOS filenames can have only a single period, and the file extension after the period is limited to 3 characters) Maybe some other things that I'm not thinking of at the moment. File::Spec does some of this, but not all. I'd also like to do this in a more platform-independent way than File::Spec (i.e., as much as possible, I'd like the module to figure these things by directly querying the OS/filesystem, rather than relying on a database of how different OS's "should" behave. For one thing, remote volumes may not behave as expected based on the local OS's filesystem conventions.) So, my questions are: 1) Does a module exist that already does this? I didn't see anything on CPAN, but I confess my CPAN searches are not always thorough (mostly because the cpan.org website is SLOW as F***. I just don't have the patience to wait 5-minutes for each search result... are there any good mirrors out there?) 2) Any suggestions for platform-independent ways of doing #1 and #6 from my list above? 3) Any suggestions for *better* ways of doing #2-5? My idea now is simply to do a completely empirical test: attempting to create and then stat a series of dummy files, whose names are generated so as to discover the filesystem limitations as efficiently as possible. 4) Any other suggestions about what this module ought to do, or issues that I'm not seeing? (I'm considering submitting this to CPAN once I'm done...) Some issues that I *am* aware of: 1) The main purpose of this module is to assist in the creation of files in specific locations, so I'm not all that concerned with volumes/directories which the current process cannot write to, for whatever reason. 2) I'm deliberately *not* worrying about finding general info about *volume* specification, because, as I said, the file-naming rules can change from one volume to another. The purpose of the module is to answer the question: what filenames can I use *here* (in a particular volume/directory). 3) I'm not really sure what the best way of dealing with #6 is. My current plan is simply to check whether there is a limit to how long file extensions can be, and whether periods can appear in other parts of the filename. There are probably other things I could/should check, but these seem to me to be the most important. 4) My algorithm is probably going to assume that any pre-existing files have completely legal filenames: this could potentially cause problems on filesystems in which "special" files can have names that aren't legal for normal files. (E.g. I'll obviously have to make a special exception for the filenames "." and "..") So... comments? -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Tue Nov 20 10:47:54 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: <00de01c171c7$684dbc00$1788ddd1@aciwin> References: <023901c1712e$1727c080$e5db4d0c@default> <996838.1006174214@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> <00de01c171c7$684dbc00$1788ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: At 5:28 AM -0800 11/20/01, Richard Anderson wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "dancerboy" > > >> For me, I >> would gladly trade physical desk space for screen real-estate. I >> think I waste much more time shuffling the windows and icons on my >> desktop than I do shuffling physical objects. I just recently got a >> second monitor for my home office, and not only do I believe that >> this has made a huge improvement in my productivity, but I don't >> think I've even come close to maxing out the improvements that >> increased screen real-estate *could* make. I think I could have 4 or >> 5 monitors on my desk before I started seeing diminishing returns. >> >Interesting idea. I generally address this concern by using the multiple >desktops that Gnome and CDE provide (and Windows has yet to provide - >grrr!). I don't think that multiple virtual desktops are nearly as helpful for me as actual monitors: when working on complex coding projects, I find it extremely helpful to have the source-code windows of different, interacting parts of the system all visible at the same time. This lets me see the interactions immediately, at a glance, instead of having to piece things together mentally bit-by-bit. Not only is it quicker, but it's much less error-prone: whenever I minimize or otherwise hide a source-code window, and then refer back to it mentally, there's always the danger that I will be remembering what's *supposed* to be there, rather than what actually *is* there. I think a significant portion of the bugs in my code come from errors in the way that distant sections of code interact with each other -- errors that would most likely have been obvious if I had actually looked at the sections of code side-by-side. Add to this the usefulness of also having a couple of pages of perldoc, a page out of CPAN, some sample-code, and a helpful posting or three from usenet or SPUG *also* visible, and I think I could quite easily put 6 monitors to good use. > Wouldn't you get neck strain from swivelling your head to look at 5 >different monitors? Or are you talking about a long table with 5 >workstations and 5 chairs? No, I mean a single workstation with 4-5 monitors. My desk at home has several tiers, so I can stack monitors vertically as well as horizontally. Even with 6 monitors (oh, how I wish!) my desktop wouldn't need to be more than 3 monitors wide. I also try to sit as far back from the monitors as practical, to avoid eye-strain -- which also reduces the amount I have to swivel my head to view multiple monitors. > >I agree that the current monitors are too small and don't have enough >resolution. Also, they are too bulky and difficult to position easily. But >desktop ergonomics are improving, and I look forward to lightweight >flat-panel displays that are large, high-res, easy on the eyes and easy to >position. Have you seen the (relatively) new Apple cinema-displays? *drool* If only I had an extra $2500 laying around... -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Tue Nov 20 12:17:46 2001 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Friends, Just to weigh in with my 2c, My workspace at work has three monitors, two attached to one computer, and a third for a different computer, and I gotta say that the times I have to work on a colleagues computer with only one monitor are hell for me. I would have a really tough time going back to only having a single monitor, as it's so nice to be able to have my code, system output (in a browser), error logs, design/specs documents, etc. all open at the same time. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of dancerboy Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:48 AM To: Richard Anderson; Jim Flanagan; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey I don't think that multiple virtual desktops are nearly as helpful for me as actual monitors: when working on complex coding projects, I find it extremely helpful to have the source-code windows of different, interacting parts of the system all visible at the same time. This lets me see the interactions immediately, at a glance, instead of having to piece things together mentally bit-by-bit. Not only is it quicker, but it's much less error-prone: whenever I minimize or otherwise hide a source-code window, and then refer back to it mentally, there's always the danger that I will be remembering what's *supposed* to be there, rather than what actually *is* there. I think a significant portion of the bugs in my code come from errors in the way that distant sections of code interact with each other -- errors that would most likely have been obvious if I had actually looked at the sections of code side-by-side. Add to this the usefulness of also having a couple of pages of perldoc, a page out of CPAN, some sample-code, and a helpful posting or three from usenet or SPUG *also* visible, and I think I could quite easily put 6 monitors to good use. -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of dancerboy Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:48 AM To: Richard Anderson; Jim Flanagan; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG: Results of Work Space Survey At 5:28 AM -0800 11/20/01, Richard Anderson wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "dancerboy" > > >> For me, I >> would gladly trade physical desk space for screen real-estate. I >> think I waste much more time shuffling the windows and icons on my >> desktop than I do shuffling physical objects. I just recently got a >> second monitor for my home office, and not only do I believe that >> this has made a huge improvement in my productivity, but I don't >> think I've even come close to maxing out the improvements that >> increased screen real-estate *could* make. I think I could have 4 or >> 5 monitors on my desk before I started seeing diminishing returns. >> >Interesting idea. I generally address this concern by using the multiple >desktops that Gnome and CDE provide (and Windows has yet to provide - >grrr!). I don't think that multiple virtual desktops are nearly as helpful for me as actual monitors: when working on complex coding projects, I find it extremely helpful to have the source-code windows of different, interacting parts of the system all visible at the same time. This lets me see the interactions immediately, at a glance, instead of having to piece things together mentally bit-by-bit. Not only is it quicker, but it's much less error-prone: whenever I minimize or otherwise hide a source-code window, and then refer back to it mentally, there's always the danger that I will be remembering what's *supposed* to be there, rather than what actually *is* there. I think a significant portion of the bugs in my code come from errors in the way that distant sections of code interact with each other -- errors that would most likely have been obvious if I had actually looked at the sections of code side-by-side. Add to this the usefulness of also having a couple of pages of perldoc, a page out of CPAN, some sample-code, and a helpful posting or three from usenet or SPUG *also* visible, and I think I could quite easily put 6 monitors to good use. > Wouldn't you get neck strain from swivelling your head to look at 5 >different monitors? Or are you talking about a long table with 5 >workstations and 5 chairs? No, I mean a single workstation with 4-5 monitors. My desk at home has several tiers, so I can stack monitors vertically as well as horizontally. Even with 6 monitors (oh, how I wish!) my desktop wouldn't need to be more than 3 monitors wide. I also try to sit as far back from the monitors as practical, to avoid eye-strain -- which also reduces the amount I have to swivel my head to view multiple monitors. > >I agree that the current monitors are too small and don't have enough >resolution. Also, they are too bulky and difficult to position easily. But >desktop ergonomics are improving, and I look forward to lightweight >flat-panel displays that are large, high-res, easy on the eyes and easy to >position. Have you seen the (relatively) new Apple cinema-displays? *drool* If only I had an extra $2500 laying around... -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Tue Nov 20 13:02:15 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML Message-ID: <20011120110215.D28162@hobart.helvella.org> SPUGsters, Amidst 90% the offtopic messages on this list recently, here's a question about dealing with XML from Perl. I've done a fair bit of work with XML in Perl, but typically it has had to do with receiving information formatted in XML, with the task of having to decipher the contents and sift the groolly bits of data out. My current project adds another task: generating XML to match particular DTDs. I'll receive Perl data structures, and need to translate them into valid XML. I've two thoughts on how to do this. In my simple proof-of-concept program sketches, they seem to be approximately equal. One is to use a template file, and fill in the changing pieces, and the other is to create a DOM structure, and then call its $d->toString() method. Does anyone on the list have experience with either of these styles of generating XML? A third style that I haven't tried would be to create a system that would interpret the Perl data structure, and then generate SAX events. This also seems easy enough, but I haven't played with it yet. A SAX style pipeline for all processing from input to output won't work in this case, as the data from the querying doc is quite different than the data of the replying doc. The tricky bit that I haven't solved is complying to the DTD in such a manner that I'll be sure that my generated doc is correct. Thanks for any advice, -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tuck at whistlingfish.net Tue Nov 20 13:09:03 2001 From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: getting filesystem info? (a la File::Spec) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9550000.1006283343@flashingchance> -- dancerboy spake thusly: > File::Spec does some of this, but not all. I'd also like to do this > in a more platform-independent way than File::Spec (i.e., as much as > possible, I'd like the module to figure these things by directly > querying the OS/filesystem, rather than relying on a database of how > different OS's "should" behave. For one thing, remote volumes may > not behave as expected based on the local OS's filesystem > conventions.) I'm not sure I really see the value in this. You're going to take a performance hit because you'll have to figure this out every single time you start up, and if you want to properly deal with remote volumes you'll take the hit again every time you write to a different directory. Also, some of what you're trying to figure out seems difficult or impossible to do in a platform independent way. For instance, how could you figure out the various functionality of updir on Dos/Windows vs. Mac without some preconceived notions about their existence? And if you program in knowledge of behavior like that, why bother trying to figure it out on the fly? I would say that your development efforts would be better spent adding functionality to File::Spec, rather than writing another module that does the same thing in a different way. In addition to the added knowledge you're proposing (legal filename characters, etc.), you could add a feature that tests each assumption against the current filesystem (or even specified directory) to determine empirically whether the assumptions are correct. That way, the performance hit is only incurred for those who want it, and it's optimized as well. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From humbaba9 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 13:10:55 2001 From: humbaba9 at yahoo.com (Meryll Larkin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: nonprofits - research URLs In-Reply-To: <3BF89626.B29ACBEF@oz.net> Message-ID: <20011120191055.24938.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com> 11/20/01 At the risk of giving you info you already have.... Here are a few URLs I use to start my research on non-profits (other than going to Google and typing in nonprofit org seattle). http://www.bridgewaycareer.com/seattle-nonprofits.htm http://www.idealist.org/ http://www.inom.org/links2.htm http://www.ncnb.org/links.htm http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/ What's that site running? - tells me what platform they (or their ISP) are using on their Web server, sometimes the volunteer who answers the phone doesn't know. Of course, if they are using IIS, this DOESN'T tell me if they use Active Perl and a pseudo cgi-bin, and it also DOESN'T tell me about their servers OTHER than their Web server. And, under Netblock owner, you might find the name of their ISP or parent company. Meryll Larkin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jay at Scherrer.com Tue Nov 20 14:31:46 2001 From: jay at Scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML In-Reply-To: <20011120110215.D28162@hobart.helvella.org> References: <20011120110215.D28162@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <200111202031.fAKKVlr02000@localhost.localdomain> I've been using XML::Writer. Although very basic it can also produce the dtd's needed. It used to be included in the XML Bundle but for some reason left out. Jay On Tuesday 20 November 2001 11:02 am, you wrote: > SPUGsters, > > Amidst 90% the offtopic messages on this list recently, here's a > question about dealing with XML from Perl. > > I've done a fair bit of work with XML in Perl, but typically it has had > to do with receiving information formatted in XML, with the task of > having to decipher the contents and sift the groolly bits of data out. > My current project adds another task: generating XML to match particular > DTDs. I'll receive Perl data structures, and need to translate them into > valid XML. > > I've two thoughts on how to do this. In my simple proof-of-concept > program sketches, they seem to be approximately equal. One is to use a > template file, and fill in the changing pieces, and the other is to > create a DOM structure, and then call its $d->toString() method. Does > anyone on the list have experience with either of these styles of > generating XML? A third style that I haven't tried would be to create > a system that would interpret the Perl data structure, and then > generate SAX events. This also seems easy enough, but I haven't played > with it yet. > > A SAX style pipeline for all processing from input to output won't work > in this case, as the data from the querying doc is quite different than > the data of the replying doc. > > The tricky bit that I haven't solved is complying to the DTD in such > a manner that I'll be sure that my generated doc is correct. > > Thanks for any advice, > -C. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jeeprv21 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 20 14:30:56 2001 From: jeeprv21 at hotmail.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x9HDpL/B?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIHNwdWctbGlzdLTUIL7Is+fHz73KtM+x7j8=?= Message-ID: <200111202032.fAKKWEW02518@gocho.pm.org> ?????? ??? ') i++; if (i ') i++; } dest += src.substring(mark, i); if (i >= src.length) break; dest += ''; mark = i; while (i '; wordi++; } el.innerHTML = dest; el.posLeft = 0; el.style.visibility = 'visible'; list[index] = namosw_new_animation_object(el.name+'word1', el.startCondObj, el.startCondTime, el.startXPos, el.startYPos, el.pathType, false, el.zoom, el.stepNum); for (i = 1; i 0) { el.countDown = (0 0 ? -1:1)); cosv = Math.cos(Math.PI*el.step/el.stepNum); newx = ((cosv*(el.sx-x) - sinv*(el.sy-y) + x) + linex) / 2; newy = ((sinv*(el.sx-x) + cosv*(el.sy-y) + y) + liney) / 2; } else if (el.pathType == 'spiral') { sinv = Math.sin(2*Math.PI*el.step/el.stepNum); cosv = Math.cos(2*Math.PI*el.step/el.stepNum); r = (el.stepNum-el.step)/el.stepNum; newx = el.ex + (cosv*(el.sx-el.ex) - sinv*(el.sy-el.ey))*r; newy = el.ey + (sinv*(el.sx-el.ex) + cosv*(el.sy-el.ey))*r; } if (el.style) { if (el.zoom == 'zoomin') el.style.fontSize = 50+50*el.step/el.stepNum + '%'; else if (el.zoom == 'zoomout') el.style.fontSize = 200-100*el.step/el.stepNum + '%'; } namosw_set_pos(el, newx, newy); namosw_set_visible(el, true); if (el.step++ == el.stepNum) { namosw_set_pos(el, el.ex, el.ey); el.step = 0; el.countDown = -1; // trigger other object(self can be trigger) for (var j = 0; j 0) window.setTimeout("namosw_animate();", 10);}function namosw_init_animation(){ var i = 0; var list = new Array; list[i++] = namosw_new_animation_object('alayer1', null, 0, 'right', 'bottom', 'spiral', false, null, 70); document.NamoAnimationObjects = list; var length = list.length; for (i = 0; i ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???. document.write(month + "?"); document.write( myweekday + "?" + day); ????? ???? | ??????? | ?? ???? | ??????? ? ??? ? ???? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????. ????? JEEPRV?? 1,000??? ??? ???????. ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ? ???? ?? ??? ? ??? ???????. ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ?????. ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????. ?? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? jeep??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? RV? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? | ??????? | ?? ???? | ??????? ? ???? ???????. ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????. Copyright 2001 by ??????. All right reserved. Tel. 031-962-7651 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011121/6c84e6d0/attachment.htm From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Tue Nov 20 14:54:18 2001 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML Message-ID: <200111202054.MAA15032@carios2.ca.boeing.com> >My current project adds another task: generating XML to match particular >DTDs. I'll receive Perl data structures, and need to translate them into >valid XML. >I've two thoughts on how to do this. In my simple proof-of-concept > program sketches, they seem to be approximately equal. One is to use a > template file, and fill in the changing pieces, and the other is to >.. >The tricky bit that I haven't solved is complying to the DTD in such >a manner that I'll be sure that my generated doc is correct. I haven't used it but XML::AutoWriter may be worth a peek as well as XML::Writer which was mentioned. The bundled XML::Doctype and XML::ValidWriter appear to offer some added flexibility. Rgds, -- Charles DeRykus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Tue Nov 20 15:23:30 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: getting filesystem info? (a la File::Spec) In-Reply-To: <9550000.1006283343@flashingchance> References: <9550000.1006283343@flashingchance> Message-ID: At 11:09 AM -0800 11/20/01, Matt Tucker wrote: >-- dancerboy spake thusly: > >> File::Spec does some of this, but not all. I'd also like to do this >> in a more platform-independent way than File::Spec (i.e., as much as >> possible, I'd like the module to figure these things by directly >> querying the OS/filesystem, rather than relying on a database of how >> different OS's "should" behave. For one thing, remote volumes may >> not behave as expected based on the local OS's filesystem >> conventions.) > >I'm not sure I really see the value in this. You're going to take a >performance hit because you'll have to figure this out every single >time you start up, No: I'll only take the performance hit when a client requests information that the module doesn't already have. > and if you want to properly deal with remote volumes >you'll take the hit again every time you write to a different directory. True, but I think this module will be mostly useful to programs that need to write large numbers of files into a few directories, so the performance hit shouldn't be too bad, relative to the tasks for which the module is useful. > >Also, some of what you're trying to figure out seems difficult or >impossible to do in a platform independent way. True. That's why I said "as much as possible" and not "completely". Also, I should have been more clear: because I asked these questions as part of preliminary research, I was listing my more ambitious feature-set. Not all of these features have the same priority. E.g.: I think maximum file-name length and case-sensitivity are much higher priority than getting an exhaustive list of legal characters. (The latter is problematic because, as I think you were perhaps hinting at, it will be difficult to differentiate characters from meta-characters in a platform-independent way.) > >I would say that your development efforts would be better spent adding >functionality to File::Spec, rather than writing another module that >does the same thing in a different way. Well, folding the functionality into File::Spec or not is mostly a matter of what namespace I decide to place my API into -- it doesn't really change the development effort in any significant way. One problem with adding the functionality to File::Spec is that File::Spec isn't OO, whereas I think it makes sense for my module to use an OO interface. My idea now is that each object will encapsulate information about a specific directory. > In addition to the added >knowledge you're proposing (legal filename characters, etc.), you could >add a feature that tests each assumption against the current filesystem >(or even specified directory) to determine empirically whether the >assumptions are correct. That way, the performance hit is only incurred >for those who want it, and it's optimized as well. Not sure what advantage this has over just doing the tests when the client requests the information. I don't see any advantage to an API with two different methods, one for getting an answer, the other for getting a *correct* answer. If a client cares enough to request the information in the first place, they probably care enough to want information that's actually useful... -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From asimjalis at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 16:26:50 2001 From: asimjalis at yahoo.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML In-Reply-To: <20011120110215.D28162@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <20011120222650.89011.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> A fourth style is to just use string concatenation: my $xml = ""; for my $x (@list) { $xml .= "$x"; } $xml .= ""; The advantages are: it is simple, easy to understand, and probably faster than the other alternatives. Separating code from formatting using templates is useful with HTML because the formatting changes so much. With XML layout is usually pretty stable. If your schema or DTD changes you will probably have to change your code anyway. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From meonkeys at hotmail.com Tue Nov 20 22:46:48 2001 From: meonkeys at hotmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML -- XML::Generator, XML::XPath, nsgmls, etc. Message-ID: Here's a quick demo of XML::Generator, one I haven't seen mentioned yet. I've found XML::Writer runs faster, but I like the syntax of XML::Generator. --BEGIN xml_gen_test.pl---------------------------- #!/usr/bin/perl -w use XML::Generator; use strict; my $xml = XML::Generator->new(escape => 'always', pretty => 2, conformance => 'strict'); print $xml->DataTribe( $xml->SendFunc( $xml->AcknowledgeAddrs( $xml->EmailAddress('amonsen@example.com'), $xml->EmailAddress('meonkeys@hotmail.com'), ), $xml->ClientName('MarketSuckemdry & Buy, INC.'), $xml->ImportData( $xml->Row( $xml->UserID('0157H7'), $xml->Column({ Name => 'Car'}, 'Honda'), $xml->Column({ Name => 'Sex'}, 'Female'), ), ), ), ); --END xml_gen_test.pl---------------------------- Close all your parens properly and you're guaranteed well-formed XML! This is basically a compile-time check for well-formedness. It also has easy ways to handle namespaces, CDATA, comments, amonsen@example.com meonkeys@hotmail.com MarketSuckemdry & Buy, INC. 0157H7 Honda Female --END xml_output--------------------------------- For checking XML validity against a DTD, I use nsgmls. I don't know an easy way to validate XML with Perl. For Retrieving data, XML::XPath is a great way to get at a specific piece of data. I ran this script on xml_output above... --BEGIN XML-XPath_test.pl-------------------------- #!/usr/bin/perl -w use XML::XPath; use XML::XPath::XMLParser; use strict; my $xml; while (<>) { $xml .= $_; } my $parser = XML::XPath::XMLParser->new(xml => $xml); my $root_node = $parser->parse; my $xpath = XML::XPath->new(context => $root_node); my $clientname = $xpath->find('/DataTribe/SendFunc/ClientName/text()'); print "Client is $clientname for this transaction\n"; --END XML-XPath_test.pl-------------------------- And here is the result. --BEGIN xpath test output-------------------------- Client is MarketSuckemdry & Buy, INC. for this transaction --END xpath test output-------------------------- Notice how the amperstand was conveniently un-escaped. Not sure if I made any dumb mistakes above, but anyway, Good luck! Please let me (and spug-list) know what you find out. -Adam >From: Colin Meyer >To: spug-list@pm.org >Subject: SPUG: Generating XML >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:02:15 -0800 > >SPUGsters, > >Amidst 90% the offtopic messages on this list recently, here's a >question about dealing with XML from Perl. > >I've done a fair bit of work with XML in Perl, but typically it has had >to do with receiving information formatted in XML, with the task of >having to decipher the contents and sift the groolly bits of data out. >My current project adds another task: generating XML to match particular >DTDs. I'll receive Perl data structures, and need to translate them into >valid XML. > >I've two thoughts on how to do this. In my simple proof-of-concept >program sketches, they seem to be approximately equal. One is to use a >template file, and fill in the changing pieces, and the other is to >create a DOM structure, and then call its $d->toString() method. Does >anyone on the list have experience with either of these styles of >generating XML? A third style that I haven't tried would be to create >a system that would interpret the Perl data structure, and then >generate SAX events. This also seems easy enough, but I haven't played >with it yet. > >A SAX style pipeline for all processing from input to output won't work >in this case, as the data from the querying doc is quite different than >the data of the replying doc. > >The tricky bit that I haven't solved is complying to the DTD in such >a manner that I'll be sure that my generated doc is correct. > >Thanks for any advice, >-C. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From Ryan.Parr at wwireless.com Tue Nov 20 22:58:17 2001 From: Ryan.Parr at wwireless.com (Parr, Ryan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Generating XML Message-ID: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C60F@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> What I ended up doing in my own project was working up a module that traversed a data structure and created the XML from that. For instance: { "PS" => [ { "PROCESS" => [ { "TIME" => "0:00.56", "TTY" => "??", "STIME" => "2Nov01", "C" => 0, "COMMAND" => "(swapper)", "UID" => 0, "PID" => 0, "PPID" => 0 }, } ]; } becomes: ?? 2Nov01 0 (swapper) 0 0 0 Easy to use, and not terribly slow. It encodes all non-word characters properly and indents for human readibility. It doesn't support tag meta data or parameters, but that would be easy enough to implement I think. If you think this could help you let me know and I'll send the mod. -- Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Asim Jalis [mailto:asimjalis@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:27 PM To: spug-list@pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Generating XML A fourth style is to just use string concatenation: my $xml = ""; for my $x (@list) { $xml .= "$x"; } $xml .= ""; The advantages are: it is simple, easy to understand, and probably faster than the other alternatives. Separating code from formatting using templates is useful with HTML because the formatting changes so much. With XML layout is usually pretty stable. If your schema or DTD changes you will probably have to change your code anyway. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From thasone at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 15:38:27 2001 From: thasone at yahoo.com (c k) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager In-Reply-To: <20011120110215.D28162@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <20011121213827.35577.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Anybody have suggestions for creating a download manager in perl? I've done work before using libwww (to download stuff), but I don't know how to got about resuming a broken download. I'm stumped on that and I don't know why. Maybe I haven't read the libwww docs enough or haven't searched long and hard enough for free available source code. I'm using Go!Zilla, a "free" download manager right now, but it's spyware. I don't like that. I keep using it because I haven't found another program that can replace it (that also isn't spyware and is free). Any suggestions is greatly appreciated. Thanks! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From Ryan.Parr at wwireless.com Wed Nov 21 16:15:26 2001 From: Ryan.Parr at wwireless.com (Parr, Ryan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager Message-ID: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> I was always under the impression that downloads can be resumed only if it comes from an FTP site which supports resumable downloads. Perhaps your download manager should utilise Net::FTP as well which supports resumable downloads: $ftp->get('/pub/download.gif','/tmp/download1234.gif',(stat '/tmp/download1234.gif')[7]); I could just be behind the times on this though. -- Ryan -----Original Message----- From: c k [mailto:thasone@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:38 PM To: spug-list@pm.org Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager Anybody have suggestions for creating a download manager in perl? I've done work before using libwww (to download stuff), but I don't know how to got about resuming a broken download. I'm stumped on that and I don't know why. Maybe I haven't read the libwww docs enough or haven't searched long and hard enough for free available source code. I'm using Go!Zilla, a "free" download manager right now, but it's spyware. I don't like that. I keep using it because I haven't found another program that can replace it (that also isn't spyware and is free). Any suggestions is greatly appreciated. Thanks! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jope-spug at jope.net Wed Nov 21 18:04:19 2001 From: jope-spug at jope.net (El JoPe Magnifico) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager In-Reply-To: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> Message-ID: If this is for downloads over HTTP, add a "Content-Range" header to your follow-up request(s). On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Parr, Ryan wrote: > I was always under the impression that downloads can be resumed only > if it comes from an FTP site which supports resumable downloads. [...] > -----Original Message----- > From: c k [mailto:thasone@yahoo.com] > Anybody have suggestions for creating a download > manager in perl? > > I've done work before using libwww (to download > stuff), but I don't know how to got about resuming a > broken download. I'm stumped on that and I don't know > why. Maybe I haven't read the libwww docs enough or > haven't searched long and hard enough for free > available source code. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jope-spug at jope.net Wed Nov 21 18:10:58 2001 From: jope-spug at jope.net (El JoPe Magnifico) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: RE(x2): SPUG: Perl Download Manager In-Reply-To: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> Message-ID: Whoops, ignore last message. Should be the "Range" header that you add to the request; "Content-Range" is for the response header. Obviously I've never actually used these. =) > From: c k [mailto:thasone@yahoo.com] > Anybody have suggestions for creating a download > manager in perl? > > I've done work before using libwww (to download > stuff), but I don't know how to got about resuming a > broken download. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tuck at whistlingfish.net Wed Nov 21 18:19:39 2001 From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager In-Reply-To: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> References: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwirele ss.com> Message-ID: <32460000.1006388378@benzene> -- "Parr, Ryan" spake thusly: > I was always under the impression that downloads can be resumed only > if it comes from an FTP site which supports resumable downloads. > Perhaps your download manager should utilise Net::FTP as well which > supports resumable downloads: >From the HTTP/1.1 spec : The semantics of the GET method change to a "partial GET" if the request message includes a Range header field. A partial GET requests that only part of the entity be transferred, as described in section 14.36. The partial GET method is intended to reduce unnecessary network usage by allowing partially-retrieved entities to be completed without transferring data already held by the client. In other words, it looks like it's possible to do resumes using HTTP. I have no idea whether LWP supports this easily, but it shouldn't be difficult to implement. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011121/2b0d6102/attachment.bin From kenslinux at home.com Wed Nov 21 22:03:49 2001 From: kenslinux at home.com (Ken Clarke) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager References: <6D6F0541E2B1D411A75B0002A513016D04D5C6A9@wacorpml03.wwireless.com> Message-ID: <013d01c1730a$b219ff80$94c54618@gv.shawcable.net> RFC 2616 (http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html) replaces RFC 2068. Maybe start with something like this: use HTTP::Request::Common; $ua = LWP::UserAgent->new(); $res = $ua -> get($URL); $body = $res -> content(); $offset = 0; while ($res -> code() == 206) { $offset += $ua -> content_length; $res = $ua -> get($URL, Range => $offset.':bytes'); $body .= $res -> content(); } >> Ken Clarke >> Contract Web Programmer / E-commerce Technologist >> www.perlprogrammer.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parr, Ryan" To: Sent: November 21, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: SPUG: Perl Download Manager > I was always under the impression that downloads can be resumed only if it > comes from an FTP site which supports resumable downloads. Perhaps your > download manager should utilise Net::FTP as well which supports resumable > downloads: > > $ftp->get('/pub/download.gif','/tmp/download1234.gif',(stat > '/tmp/download1234.gif')[7]); > > I could just be behind the times on this though. > > -- Ryan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: c k [mailto:thasone@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:38 PM > To: spug-list@pm.org > Subject: SPUG: Perl Download Manager > > > Anybody have suggestions for creating a download > manager in perl? > > I've done work before using libwww (to download > stuff), but I don't know how to got about resuming a > broken download. I'm stumped on that and I don't know > why. Maybe I haven't read the libwww docs enough or > haven't searched long and hard enough for free > available source code. > > I'm using Go!Zilla, a "free" download manager right > now, but it's spyware. I don't like that. I keep > using it because I haven't found another program that > can replace it (that also isn't spyware and is free). > > Any suggestions is greatly appreciated. Thanks! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From lifecareshop at lifecareshop.com Thu Nov 22 14:53:49 2001 From: lifecareshop at lifecareshop.com (라이프케어샵) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: 와우! 꽝없는 경품 대잔치잖아.. Message-ID: <20011122205427.0B4DA8EDD@mail2.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011123/68fc4516/attachment.htm From online13 at firenze.net Sat Nov 24 14:28:32 2001 From: online13 at firenze.net (la tipografia on line) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: per i vostri stampati Message-ID: <200111242028.fAOKSWW17166@gocho.pm.org> AUGURI PERSONALIZZATI con il Vostro logo e testi stampati a colori completi di buste neutre formato cm 21 x cm 10,5 su cartoncino gr. 300 minimo 100 pezzi Consegna al corriere in 48 ore lire 900 cd. (iva e trasporto escluso) per vedere un esempio: http://stampa48ore.supereva.it/ inoltre vi ricordiamo alcune nostre lavorazioni tradizionali: 4000 biglietti da visita in cartoncino gr. 300 (stampa ambo a colori) Lire 199.000 1000 biglietti da visita PVC 400 micon (stampa a colori) Lire 199.000 10.000 depliant formato 21 x 29,7 (stampa ambo a colori) lire 1.350.000 1.000 Carte intestate stampate in digitale (stampa a colori) da lire 140.000 per visionare le nostre offerte http://tipografia27.supereva.it/ Distinti Saluti La tipografia on line Via Marco Aurelio 47 00184 Roma 06 7005285 SE NON VOLETE RICEVERE PIU' I NOSTRI MESSAGGI premete mailto:remove1@inwind.it?subject=RIMUOVI - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From asimjalis at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 19:52:04 2001 From: asimjalis at yahoo.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Arrestare lo Spamming In-Reply-To: <200111242028.fAOKSWW17166@gocho.pm.org> Message-ID: <20011125015204.56192.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Arrestare prego lo Spamming la nostra sped-lista meravigliosa di SPUG. Se dovete prego Spam farlo in inglese. Potreste trovare quello pi� efficace. Asim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cjcollier at sinclair.net Sat Nov 24 20:26:49 2001 From: cjcollier at sinclair.net (C.J. Collier) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Social Get Together 11/30 Message-ID: Hey All, It's been a while since I've announced that I was looking to set up a get together for the group. We don't do enough socializing, and it might be fun to have a time to just relax and talk perl in a social environment. My homebrew finished up a few weeks ago, and I've been looking for a good time to have an event. It looks like Friday November 30th is good for my people, so I thought I'd verify with you all. If you're interested in attending, please RSVP and I'll give you directions, etc. The plan is to start after people get off work and stay 'til 10 or so. I look forward to hearing from you and seeing those of you who can come, C.J. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From m94510 at dreamwiz.com Tue Nov 27 08:11:17 2001 From: m94510 at dreamwiz.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wKW5zLXwvu69usTw?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIMCvv+vH0SDBpLq4wNS0z7TZISEh?= Message-ID: <200111271414.fAREErW29762@gocho.pm.org> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011127/54df4c1c/attachment.htm From aalgard at whitepages.com Tue Nov 27 18:04:45 2001 From: aalgard at whitepages.com (Alex Algard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: seeking: experienced, Perl-savvy developer Message-ID: <663BFEF390D00A40BF9CA710C29110B9066672@kiwi.intra.whitepages.com> Following up on my previous email regarding hiring, we are now seeking an experienced, Perl-savvy developer. Although our web site has been around for a long time, we are still in the very early stages in terms of the software development for our online services. Please go here for more info: http://www.whitepages.com/jobs . _____________________ Alex Algard -----Original Message----- From: Alex Algard Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:42 PM To: Al Billings; c k; Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: RE: SPUG: Re: Why aren't they hiring? Actually, I know that we'll be hiring at least in the near future. We'll soon be looking to fill several positions. I'm affiliated with two companies (WhitePages.com and CarDomain Networks), both of which are Perl shops and are solidly profitable. I'd expect that an email will be sent to this list when the recruiting for any of these positions begins. - Alex Algard -----Original Message----- From: Al Billings [ mailto:memoria@memoria.com ] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:02 PM To: c k; Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: SPUG: Re: Why aren't they hiring? ck wrote: > I've been looking for a perl position in Seattle > sometime now and after using for some time one of the > online job sites, www.dice.com, I'm beginning to > wonder why some of the recruiters or employers haven't > hired anybody yet. They're posting the same positions > month after month. Is it that hard for them to find > someone? Sometimes I feel like I'm present or some > one else who's more qualified is present, and why > aren't these positions being taken up. I guess I'm > just frustrated, in dealing with recruiters. I expect that they aren't real jobs. My girlfriend has been looking for a test job for two months and can't find anything. I've heard from several groups that were hiring people that 20+ people are showing up to interview for most tech jobs. The market is extremely tight right now. If jobs have been up for that long, they can't be real. Al - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011127/41971f8e/attachment.htm From asa.martin at attws.com Thu Nov 29 14:14:44 2001 From: asa.martin at attws.com (Martin, Asa) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? Message-ID: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com> Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create a reference to an anonymous array: $ cat /tmp/a #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; my $aref = qw[one two three four]; if (ref($aref) eq 'ARRAY') { print "yes\n"; } Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. To get it to work, I have to use: my $aref = ['one', 'two', 'three', 'four']; Then the script prints yes. Anyone care to enlighten me on what's happening? Thanks, Asa Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011129/d59339cd/attachment.htm From benjamin at golly.com Thu Nov 29 14:25:40 2001 From: benjamin at golly.com (Benjamin Franks) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: references, subroutines, fork Message-ID: <20011129202540.47B9036FB@sitemail.everyone.net> I pass a subroutine a reference to a array. The subroutine forks off a child and then makes use of the reference to the hash. However, in the parent branch of the fork, I empty/delete the underlying array elements. Even if I put the child to sleep until well after the parent has deleted the array, I can still access the data the reference use to point to. I would have imagined if you destroy the underlying data the reference would reflect that change. What's happening...how does perl handle this situation? Here's some rough code as an example: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; push my @alpha, { 'test' => ['a','b','c','d'], 'test1' => 2 }; while (@alpha) { &child($alpha[$#alpha]); @alpha=(); print "PARENT: ",$#alpha,"\n"; } exit; sub child { my $x=shift; warn ("can't fork: $!") unless defined (my $child=fork()); if ($child) { print "PARENT: ",%{$x}->{test1},"\n"; } else { sleep(10); print "CHILD: ",%{$x}->{test1},"\n"; exit; } } _____________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mars at www.alaskashops.net Thu Nov 29 14:54:13 2001 From: mars at www.alaskashops.net (Jennifer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Social Get Together 11/30 Message-ID: Perl Programmers, I wanted to remind you that in a day and a half, my home will be opened to perl programmers near and far. This was originally CJ's homebrew event but we decided that my house is bigger and better suited to social gatherings so I am now the co-sponsor. You may think that this is only a beer party, but this is not the case. I am sure that the real fun will be in all the wonderfully nerdy conversations. Since I am unemployed, the one thing I miss most is office lunch time conversation of bombs, strange perl hacks and theorizing about recent breakthroughs in science. I will see you tomorrow, Jennifer McMillan To Get Here: http://colliertech.opensoft.org/~cjcollier/spug/directions/ On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, C.J. Collier wrote: > Hey All, > > It's been a while since I've announced that I was looking to set up a > get together for the group. We don't do enough socializing, and it > might be fun to have a time to just relax and talk perl in a social > environment. My homebrew finished up a few weeks ago, and I've been > looking for a good time to have an event. It looks like Friday November > 30th is good for my people, so I thought I'd verify with you all. The > plan is to start after people get off work and stay 'til 10 or so. > > I look forward to hearing from you and seeing those of you who can > come, > > C.J. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From dcd at tc.fluke.com Thu Nov 29 14:54:45 2001 From: dcd at tc.fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? In-Reply-To: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 at 12:14 -0800, Martin, Asa wrote: > Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create a > reference to an anonymous array: > > $ cat /tmp/a > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > use strict; > > my $aref = qw[one two three four]; Change this to my $aref = [ qw[one two three four] ]; > if (ref($aref) eq 'ARRAY') { > print "yes\n"; > } Then the script prints yes. The [] in my $aref = qw[one two three four]; are just quoting qw/STRING/ Generalized quotes. See "Regexp Quote-Like Operators" in perlop. No array reference is created the outer square braces around the qw() are what create the reference - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Nov 29 14:56:37 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? In-Reply-To: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com>; from Martin, Asa on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:14:44PM -0800 References: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com> Message-ID: <20011129125637.A23968@timji.consultix.wa.com> On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:14:44PM -0800, Martin, Asa wrote: > Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create a > reference to an anonymous array: > > $ cat /tmp/a > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > use strict; > > my $aref = qw[one two three four]; All that does is use the [] symbols as the delimiters for quoting the enclosed words; you need to add the anonymous array constructor []'s too: my $aref = [ qw[one two three four] ]; Or, less "confusingly": my $aref = [ qw(one two three four) ]; > > if (ref($aref) eq 'ARRAY') { > print "yes\n"; > } > . . . > Thanks, > > Asa Martin > > > -Tim *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | EMAIL: tim@consultix-inc.com WEB: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: UNIX/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl COLIN MEYER: Perl CGI/DBI | | UPCOMING CLASSES: "Perl Prog., plus Modules", 12/3-12/6/01, Kirkland | | /etc/cotd: find /earth -follow -name bin_laden -print | xargs rm -rf | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From toddw at wrq.com Thu Nov 29 15:00:08 2001 From: toddw at wrq.com (Todd Wells) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? Message-ID: <1654BC972546D31189DA00508B318AC80343EFC2@charmander.wrq.com> It will work if you do this: my $aref = [qw(one two three four)]; -----Original Message----- From: Martin, Asa [mailto:asa.martin@attws.com] Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:15 PM To: 'spug-list@pm.org' Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create a reference to an anonymous array: $ cat /tmp/a #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; my $aref = qw[one two three four]; if (ref($aref) eq 'ARRAY') { print "yes\n"; } Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. To get it to work, I have to use: my $aref = ['one', 'two', 'three', 'four']; Then the script prints yes. Anyone care to enlighten me on what's happening? Thanks, Asa Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011129/26b4daee/attachment.htm From jimfl at colltech.com Thu Nov 29 15:06:55 2001 From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? In-Reply-To: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com> References: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.co m> Message-ID: <1291941.1007039213@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> --On Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:14 PM -0800 "Martin, Asa" wrote: > Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create > a reference to an anonymous array: Yes, this shouldn't work. :^) The qw operator creates an array, not an arrayref. The qw operator is magical in that you can use a delimiter that is part of an open/close pair, like {}, [], (), or a 'unary' delimiter, like $$, %%, ##, //, ||, whatever. They all mean the same thing. You could use the following: $aref = [qw(these are the elements of my arrarref)]; -- Jim Flanagan jimfl@colltech.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jimfl at colltech.com Thu Nov 29 15:12:38 2001 From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: references, subroutines, fork In-Reply-To: <20011129202540.47B9036FB@sitemail.everyone.net> References: <20011129202540.47B9036FB@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <1312594.1007039557@erd-s.nwest.attws.com> --On Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:25 PM -0800 Benjamin Franks wrote: > I pass a subroutine a reference to a array. The subroutine forks > off a child and then makes use of the reference to the hash. > However, in the parent branch of the fork, I empty/delete the > underlying array elements. Even if I put the child to sleep until > well after the parent has deleted the array, I can still access the > data the reference use to point to. I would have imagined if you > destroy the underlying data the reference would reflect that change. > What's happening...how does perl handle this situation? Once you fork, you have two distinct copies of all the program data. What happens in one process does not effect what happens in the other. It would be nice if things worked this way....sometimes. It is possible to arrange shared memory within perl, but not particularly portable. You might want to take a look at the IPC::Sharable module from CPAN http://search.cpan.org/search?dist=IPC-Shareable -- Jim Flanagan jimfl@colltech.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cjcollier at sinclair.net Thu Nov 29 15:22:07 2001 From: cjcollier at sinclair.net (C.J. Collier) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? In-Reply-To: <67FC0E2A32D0D31194500008C7CF2E6F05528EF9@wa-msg09.entp.attws.com> Message-ID: Heya Asa, You'll want to put square brackets around your qw(). qw can use quite a few delimiters, in this case, the [] act just like :: would, so if you'd like, you can use my $aref = [ qw[one two three four] ]; and get the desired effect. Hope this helps, C.J. On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Martin, Asa wrote: > Am I missing something, or shouldn't this syntax be valid to create a > reference to an anonymous array: > > $ cat /tmp/a > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > use strict; > > my $aref = qw[one two three four]; > > if (ref($aref) eq 'ARRAY') { > print "yes\n"; > } > > Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. > Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. > Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/a line 4. > > To get it to work, I have to use: > > my $aref = ['one', 'two', 'three', 'four']; > > Then the script prints yes. > > Anyone care to enlighten me on what's happening? > > Thanks, > > Asa Martin > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Thu Nov 29 15:24:05 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: references, subroutines, fork In-Reply-To: <20011129202540.47B9036FB@sitemail.everyone.net> References: <20011129202540.47B9036FB@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20011129132405.S7553@hobart.helvella.org> Hi, Benjamin, On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:25:40PM -0800, Benjamin Franks wrote: > I pass a subroutine a reference to a array. The subroutine forks off a > child and then makes use of the reference to the hash. However, in the > parent branch of the fork, I empty/delete the underlying array > elements. Even if I put the child to sleep until well after the parent > has deleted the array, I can still access the data the reference use > to point to. I would have imagined if you destroy the underlying data > the reference would reflect that change. What's happening...how does > perl handle this situation? When a process forks, the child gets a unique copy of the parent's memory. Thus when the parent modifies a variable, the child's copy of that same variable doesn't get modified. (Actually, your operating system uses "copy-on-write" memory handling so that the processes' memory remain shared until one of them writes to it.) Thanks for posting code! Have fun, -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Thu Nov 29 15:23:12 2001 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Shouldn't this work? Message-ID: <200111292123.NAA19108@carios2.ca.boeing.com> > The qw operator creates an array, not an arrayref. The qw operator is > magical in that you can use a delimiter that is part of an open/close > pair, like {}, [], (), or a 'unary' delimiter, like $$, %%, ##, //, ||, > whatever. They all mean the same thing. Just an slight term clarification (to remind myself mostly) but "array" may be a confusing word in this context. The qw operator creates a list rather than an actual Perl array. In other words, if an actual array had been created the $aref below would have been an array in scalar context and $aref would be 4 and there wouldn't have been a -w warning. Instead, the original: my $aref = qw[one two three four]; is equivalent to: my $aref = ("one","two","three","four"); $aref now becomes "four" and you see the warnings: "Useless use of a constant in void context" because the initial list members are just being discarded by by the comma operator. Rgds, -- Charles DeRykus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From BBrockha at starbucks.com Thu Nov 29 15:51:50 2001 From: BBrockha at starbucks.com (Bob Brockhausen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Anyone used Net::Telnet perl module to interact with NT?? Message-ID: I'm looking for some off-line help in implementing a telnet (or like) tcp/ip port interaction script. I'm not having difficulty implementing this to work against a unix box, I'm struggling to get this to work w/NT. I need to be able to "query" file status on the NT box and the only service running is "telnet". This will be run from a Unix server on our VPN network. Thanks in advance... --- Hailing frequencies closed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Brockhausen Phone: 206-318-6413 PO Box 34067 S-IT2 Pager: 206-810-3707 Seattle Wash 98124-1067 Fax: 206-318-2371 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Nov 29 23:15:31 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: OO Perl Developer Needed Message-ID: <20011129211531.A27894@timji.consultix.wa.com> Sr. PERL/Java Developer The Cobalt Group, Inc. Job Duties: Primary responsibilities include creation of custom solutions and support of high-profile applications for major clients. Cobalt is looking for a self-starter who has strong collaborative skills and is driven by delivering custom client solutions and work with parts data inventory for PartsVoice portal. Position involves Object-oriented PERL development to start and moves to J2EE development. Requirements: 5+ solid years of software development, including strong Object-oriented PERL development experience and use of DBI/DBD. Development experience must include design and architecture of distributed systems or multi-tier client/server applications. Prefer Java experience including focuses on J2EE, EJB, Servlets and JSP. Strong relational database (Oracle) skills. Experience with BEA WebLogic or TopLink is a definite plus. Knowledge of RUP, UML and XML is highly desirable. Experience working with inventory systems and email parsing. Candidate must also have strong problem solving and issue resolution skills. Candidate must be a team player, able to work with cross-functional teams, and highly leading-edge technology. Products/Services: The Cobalt Group, Inc. a leading provider of e-business products and services for the automotive industry. With more than 8,900 website clients and approximately 8,700 parts locator clients, Cobalt is helping dealerships and manufacturers maximize their profitability online. Cobalt offers complete, cost-effective e-business packages that are endorsed by the National Automobile Dealers Association. With five packages to choose from, you'll get everything you need to meet your dealership's specific online profit goals. Cobalt owns and operates PartsVoice, the nation's leading automotive OEM parts locating and marketing company, and IntegraLink Corporation, the auto industry's premier provider of automotive data collection and reporting services. Cobalt is the only e-business provider ever to endorsed by the National Automobile Dealers' Association. Benefits: Paid vacation and sick leave Personal Days Up to 10 paid holidays per year Medical, dental and vision benefits 401(k) plan Flex Pass/Discounted Parking Onsite exercise facility Casual Work Environment Life Insurance & Supplemental Life Insurance Long/Short Term Disability Flexible Spending Account Group Home, Auto and Renters Insurance Pet Insurance Onsite Training Facility Manufacturers Discount on New Car Purchase Cell Phone Discounts Location: Seattle, WA Duration: Regular, Full-time Job ID: 9885 Submit resumes to nnelson@cobaltgroup.com Nicole R. Nelson Sr. Technical Recruiter The Cobalt Group, Inc. 2200 First Avenue South Seattle, WA 98134 e. nnelson@cobaltgroup.com http://www.cobaltgroup.com If it's automotive and it's Internet, It's Cobalt. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From moonbeam at catmanor.com Thu Nov 29 23:26:23 2001 From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Anyone used Net::Telnet perl module to interact with NT?? Message-ID: <200111300526.fAU5QNG02104@catmanor.com> > >I'm looking for some off-line help in implementing >a telnet (or like) tcp/ip port interaction script. I'm >not having difficulty implementing this to work against >a unix box, I'm struggling to get this to work w/NT. >I need to be able to "query" file status on the NT box >and the only service running is "telnet". This will >be run from a Unix server on our VPN network. >Thanks in advance... > > --- Hailing frequencies closed >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bob Brockhausen Phone: 206-318-6413 A fun program to write. Can't say if it will work on NT, I don't do windows. But I tested the following on linux and irix. But it is all "standard" perl, so I would should work anywhere. Here is the server code... #!/usr/bin/perl -Tw # # server to listen on port 1999 and return a stat of a file # ### # # modules # use strict; use IO::Socket; # # secure environment # $ENV{PATH}=""; # # declare variables # my ($socket, # client socket connection $client, # client handle @stat, # file stat data ); # # make a socket connection to port 1999 # $socket = IO::Socket::INET->new(Proto=>"tcp", LocalPort=>"1999", Listen=>1 ) or die "Cannot create server socket: $!\n"; # # loop forever for client connections # while (1) { $client = $socket->accept; $client->autoflush(1); while (<$client>) { chomp; s/\r//; # client is done if ( "$_" eq "." ) { close $client; last; } # say hello (we are a friendly server) if ( "$_" eq "hello" ) { print $client "Hello. Nice to meet you.\n"; print $client "Please enter a file name.\n"; next; } # server kill command if ( "$_" eq "kill" ) { close $client; close $socket; exit; } # stat a file if ( -f "$_" ) { @stat = stat("$_"); print $client "$_: @stat\n"; } else { print $client "File Not Found: $_\n"; } next; } } *** It works well with telnet. Here is a sample. (start the server) -->stat_server.pl & [1] 37230 (telnet to the deamon) -->telnet localhost 1999 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. hello Hello. Nice to meet you. Please enter a file name. c:/command.com File Not Found: c:/command.com /usr/bin/perl /usr/bin/perl: 90 25217292 33261 1 0 0 0 19180 1007095503 1004175156 1004582967 65536 40 /unix /unix: 90 51240 33256 1 0 0 0 7120528 1006242696 1005722055 1005722471 65536 13912 . Connection closed by foreign host. (do a remote server shutdown) -->telnet localhost 1999 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. kill Connection closed by foreign host. [1] + Done stat_server.pl & Well... That was fun! I suspect that you might want to not use the "kill" server command. I did it only to see if it would work. Using telnet on the remote side is not very useful, and very interactive. It would be much better if the client could batch a set of requests to the server. The following perl client will take whatever is on STDIN and send that to the server and copy the output to STDOUT. To handle bi-directional interaction, the parent process handles the sending of the data and a child process handles the server responses. -->cat biclient.pl #!/usr/bin/perl -w # # biclient - bidirectional forking client use strict; use IO::Socket; my($port, $host, $handle, $line, $kidpid); $port = "1999"; $host = "localhost"; # create a tcp connection to the specified host and port $handle = IO::Socket::INET->new(Proto => "tcp", PeerAddr => $host, PeerPort => $port) or die "can't connect to port $port on $host: $!"; $handle->autoflush(1); # so output gets there right away print "[Connected to $host:$port]\n"; # split the program into two processes, identical twins die "can't fork: $!" unless defined($kidpid = fork()); if ($kidpid) { # parent copies the socket to standard output while (defined ($line = <$handle>)) { print $line; } kill("TERM" => $kidpid); # send SIGTERM to child } else { # child copies standard input to the socket while (defined ($line = <>)) { print $handle $line; } } *** Note -- The remote host is hardcoded in the client code! It is left for the reader to getopt this parameter. Here is an "interactive" sample run... -->biclient.pl [Connected to localhost:1999] hello Hello. Nice to meet you. Please enter a file name. /bin/sh /bin/sh: 90 25182522 33261 1 0 0 0 606808 1007095506 1004173275 1004173275 65536 1192 . This works just like telnet!. But the fun part is that the input can be now batched and can be embedded in a shell script, client code, or available for automation via cron. For example... -->cat tt /unix /bin/sh /command.com /usr/bin/perl . note - the trailing "." is important. Otherwise, the server hold onto the client connection. -->cat tt | biclient.pl [Connected to localhost:1999] /unix: 90 51240 33256 1 0 0 0 7120528 1006242696 1005722055 1005722471 65536 13912 /bin/sh: 90 25182522 33261 1 0 0 0 606808 1007096586 1004173275 1004173275 65536 1192 File Not Found: /command.com /usr/bin/perl: 90 25217292 33261 1 0 0 0 19180 1007096609 1004175156 1004582967 65536 40 Have Fun. --- William Julien _,'| _.-''``-...___..--'; moonbeam@catmanor.com /, \'. _..-' , ,--...--''' vi is my shepherd; < \ .`--''' ` /| i shall not font. `-,;' ; ; ; __...--'' __...--_..' .;.' (,__....----''' (,..--'' perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);' perl -e '( $ ,, $ ")=("a".."z")[0,-1]; print "sh", $ ","m\n";;";;"' - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From thasone at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 18:27:38 2001 From: thasone at yahoo.com (c k) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: SPUG Singles Night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011201002739.4739.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Has there ever been a SPUG singles night? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Fri Nov 30 22:51:35 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: SPUG Singles Night In-Reply-To: <20011201002739.4739.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: None officially. Wouldn't that discriminate against us non-singles? That would be contrary to the open nature of SPUG. :) Knock yourselves out with a singles night if you want, but I'll bet everyone would have more fun if they showed up for C.J. and Jennifer's SPUG social tonight. Alas, I'm in Spokane (but the car accident, flat tire, dead battery, and robbery were much more exciting I think). On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, c k wrote: > Has there ever been a SPUG singles night? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tuck at whistlingfish.net Fri Nov 30 23:07:41 2001 From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: SPUG Singles Night In-Reply-To: <20011201002739.4739.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011201002739.4739.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <23450000.1007183256@flashingchance> -- c k spake thusly: > Has there ever been a SPUG singles night? No offense, but that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Unless you plan on combining it with the Seattle Webgrrls singles night. ;-) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20011130/ca555efb/attachment.bin From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Nov 7 12:32:22 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:35 2004 Subject: SPUG: Ballard UNIX SA/Perl Gig Message-ID: <20011107103222.A16117@timji.consultix.wa.com> Danube Technologies, Inc a Ballard based custom software applications development company, is looking for a part time (20-25 hrs/week) W2 status Unix System and Network Administrator: OS Knowledge: Unix?(FreeBSD) min. 2 years. Applications Dev: Perl, PHP, C Database Dev: MySOL, PostgreSQL, Strong Apache and BIND/DNS experience required. Special Skills: excellent problem solvers, friendly, a positive attitude, and a willingness to learn. We offer flexible schedules to meet your needs, however NO telecommuting You would be on a base salary with no initial stock incentives/etc, $15-20/hr dependent on skills. Job responsibilities include: Hosting account setup/troubleshooting, technical advise/support for staff. If interested in joining us in a fast paced atmosphere, please send your resumes to info@danubetech.com or check us out online at www.danubetech.com Best regards, Laszlo - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/