From vlb at cfcl.com  Fri Feb  2 09:53:27 2007
From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:53:27 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] JOB: mod_perl and JavaScript
Message-ID: <p06240510c1e922f2e0dc@[192.168.1.206]>

A friend and former co-worker of mine is now doing high-tech recruiting.
She's looking for Perl developer who knows mod_perl and Javascript. The
company uses a Perl - PHP - JavaScript environment backed by MySQL.
Location: mid-peninsula.

Contact Beth Fox <bethfox53 at earthlink.net> and tell her you heard about
this from me via the SF Perl Users group.

Thanks.
-- 
- Vicki

     ZZZ
  zzZ                   San Francisco Bay Area, CA
 z  |\     _,,,---,,_   Books, Cats, Tech
zz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_  http://cfcl.com/vlb
  |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'  http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)      http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/

From extasia at extasia.org  Wed Feb  7 13:24:24 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:24:24 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Net::Domain and system()
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0701292038x5193a177hf6d91e3b8d678fa2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701291941m4e4bbe49ib1dd2f638e36fbab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130042408.GB7968@hank.org>
	<4c714a9c0701292038x5193a177hf6d91e3b8d678fa2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702071324o186790cdo88afdddcfc1ed86e@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, is there any kind of groovy symbol table or other trick I
can use in programs that use my module that will have the effect of
telling the compiler that any call like:

  system ... ;

is CORE::system(), and thus avoid having to type CORE::system in the
code every place "system" would normally be used?   I thought maybe
something like this would work:

  *system = CORE::system;

It didn't.  I still got the warning.  I tried this:

    sub system { &CORE::system; };
    system "ls";

and got:

Prototype mismatch: sub main::system () vs none at junk.perl line 10.
Subroutine system redefined at junk.perl line 10.
Ambiguous call resolved as CORE::system(), qualify as such or use & at
junk.perl line 12.

followed by a directory listing.

If not, are there any other fairly simple tricks I can tell users they
can use to avoid typing CORE::system all over the place?

Assume I can't upgrade the ancient perl we're using.

On 1/29/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> On 1/29/07, Bill Moseley <moseley at hank.org> wrote:
> > Isn't 5.8.0 from about 2002?  Maybe that's the problem?
>
> Quite possibly.  The code experiencing the problem is at work.  At
> home I fail, as you did, to reproduce the problem on mac os x running
> perl 5.8.6.
>
> O.K.  I'll just tell folks at work that they have to use:
>
>   CORE::system ...;
>
> when they use my module, if they don't want the error.
>
> Thanks.
>
> P.S.  system( ... ); didn't solve the problem on the work machine.
> Only adding CORE:: did.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From extasia at extasia.org  Wed Feb  7 13:27:33 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:27:33 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Net::Domain and system()
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702071324o186790cdo88afdddcfc1ed86e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701291941m4e4bbe49ib1dd2f638e36fbab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130042408.GB7968@hank.org>
	<4c714a9c0701292038x5193a177hf6d91e3b8d678fa2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c714a9c0702071324o186790cdo88afdddcfc1ed86e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702071327w3496b91bwf025e28a802b4daa@mail.gmail.com>

Or (it's ugly but...) I can tell them that after they finish testing
their program, to add:

  no warnings 'ambigous';

Yeah, scary.  I'd stil like to find a better solution.

On 2/7/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> Actually, is there any kind of groovy symbol table or other trick I
> can use in programs that use my module that will have the effect of
> telling the compiler that any call like:
>
>   system ... ;
>
> is CORE::system(), and thus avoid having to type CORE::system in the
> code every place "system" would normally be used?

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From james at actionmessage.com  Thu Feb  8 18:41:43 2007
From: james at actionmessage.com (James Briggs)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:41:43 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Job: Full-time Perl/PHP Programmer for Graphics Software
	Company
Message-ID: <20070209023427.M93592@actionmessage.com>

Hi Guys.

James Briggs here. I'm looking for a Perl/PHP web programmer
for a telecommute/SF opening.

FrameFree has several world-class programmers on staff with clue.
(I've been a Perl CPAN author since 1998.)

Please take a look and let me know if you're interested.

Please reply to james at framefree.us with a subject of
"WEB1: resume - your name".

Thanks, James.
Manager of Web Operations, FrameFree Technologies.


Job title: Full-time Perl/PHP Programmer for Graphics Software Company

Company name: FrameFree Technologies

Internal ID: WEB1

Location: United States, California, San Francisco or Telecommute

Pay rate: Market

Travel: 0%

Terms of employment: Salaried employee

Length of employment: Permanent

Hours: Full time

Onsite: some

Description:
FrameFree develops advanced graphics software and has offices in 3
countries. There is an open position in the Bay Area for a staff web
programmer for our online store and community. We use the usual LAMP stack.

Required skills:
- Expert in either Perl or PHP, knowledgeable in the other
- JavaScript programming experience
- experienced with database programming with MySQL and/or Oracle
- web programming experience on Linux/Unix
- web ecommerce experience, especially reporting
- reliable
- good communications skills
- either telecommute or in-office (both acceptable), but if telecommute
must be available on Skype chat daily and willing to meet at least one day
per week in the San Francisco area

Desired skills:
Nice to have optional skills (in order of decreasing importance):

- Familiar with reliable, high-performance web architectures
- Linux/Unix systems administration experience
- AJAX programming experience
- web scalability/load balancing
- web security experience
- SEO
- XML
- source revision control experience with Perforce, CVS or Subversion
- advanced SQL query experience
- i18n programming experience
- web design experience (HTML, CSS, JavaScript)
- C/C++ or Java experience
- release packaging experience
- Win32 programming experience

URL for more information: http://www.framefree.com/

end

From mkenley at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 10 02:40:06 2007
From: mkenley at yahoo.com (martin)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:40:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sf-perl] Job: Full-time Perl/PHP Programmer for Graphics
	Software Company
Message-ID: <20070210104006.43679.qmail@web51509.mail.yahoo.com>

James,

I have an opening at where I work - doing QA automation.
Let me know if  you are interested, we do network attached 
storage, and write our automation scripts using Perl. It's a good
environment, great company, it's in Sunnyvale. 

Cheers,

Martin

----- Original Message ----
From: James Briggs <james at actionmessage.com>
To: sanfrancisco-pm at pm.org
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:41:43 PM
Subject: [sf-perl] Job: Full-time Perl/PHP Programmer for Graphics Software Company

Hi Guys.

James Briggs here. I'm looking for a Perl/PHP web programmer
for a telecommute/SF opening.

FrameFree has several world-class programmers on staff with clue.
(I've been a Perl CPAN author since 1998.)

Please take a look and let me know if you're interested.

Please reply to james at framefree.us with a subject of
"WEB1: resume - your name".

Thanks, James.
Manager of Web Operations, FrameFree Technologies.


Job title: Full-time Perl/PHP Programmer for Graphics Software Company

Company name: FrameFree Technologies

Internal ID: WEB1

Location: United States, California, San Francisco or Telecommute

Pay rate: Market

Travel: 0%

Terms of employment: Salaried employee

Length of employment: Permanent

Hours: Full time

Onsite: some

Description:
FrameFree develops advanced graphics software and has offices in 3
countries. There is an open position in the Bay Area for a staff web
programmer for our online store and community. We use the usual LAMP stack.

Required skills:
- Expert in either Perl or PHP, knowledgeable in the other
- JavaScript programming experience
- experienced with database programming with MySQL and/or Oracle
- web programming experience on Linux/Unix
- web ecommerce experience, especially reporting
- reliable
- good communications skills
- either telecommute or in-office (both acceptable), but if telecommute
must be available on Skype chat daily and willing to meet at least one day
per week in the San Francisco area

Desired skills:
Nice to have optional skills (in order of decreasing importance):

- Familiar with reliable, high-performance web architectures
- Linux/Unix systems administration experience
- AJAX programming experience
- web scalability/load balancing
- web security experience
- SEO
- XML
- source revision control experience with Perforce, CVS or Subversion
- advanced SQL query experience
- i18n programming experience
- web design experience (HTML, CSS, JavaScript)
- C/C++ or Java experience
- release packaging experience
- Win32 programming experience

URL for more information: http://www.framefree.com/

end
_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com

From cfcl at cfcl.com  Wed Feb 14 01:56:46 2007
From: cfcl at cfcl.com (Rich and Vicki)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:56:46 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] "A mini Mac Solution", by us...
Message-ID: <p062309acc1f88a839828@[192.168.1.205]>

Vicki and I are pleased to announce that we got an
article published in MacDevCenter:

  "A mini Mac Solution"
  http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2007/02/13/a-mini-mac-solution.html

It's a high-level overview of the move of cfcl.com
from an ailing FreeBSD 4.7 system to a Mac mini and
the latest version of Mac OS X.

-r
-- 
--                             ZZz
Vicki Brown <vlb at cfcl.com>   zZ                        P.O. Box 1269
Rich Morin <rdm at cfcl.com>  zz |\     _,,,---,,_        San Bruno, CA
Bebop, Squirrel,              /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_   94066     USA
Mezzaluna & Raven            |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
http://www.cfcl.com/        '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)     +1-650-873-7842

From rdm at cfcl.com  Fri Feb 16 08:56:55 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:56:55 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] In case you were wondering...
Message-ID: <p062309c4c1fb92396942@[192.168.1.205]>

http://xkcd.com/c224.html

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From david at fetter.org  Fri Feb 16 09:57:29 2007
From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:57:29 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] In case you were wondering...
In-Reply-To: <p062309c4c1fb92396942@[192.168.1.205]>
References: <p062309c4c1fb92396942@[192.168.1.205]>
Message-ID: <20070216175729.GF21379@fetter.org>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2007 at 08:56:55AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote:
> http://xkcd.com/c224.html

Outstanding!

Cheers,
D
-- 
David Fetter <david at fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 415 235 3778        AIM: dfetter666
                              Skype: davidfetter

Remember to vote!

From quinn at fairpath.com  Fri Feb 16 10:06:40 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:06:40 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] In case you were wondering...
In-Reply-To: <p062309c4c1fb92396942@[192.168.1.205]>
References: <p062309c4c1fb92396942@[192.168.1.205]>
Message-ID: <20070216180640.GA95736@fu.funkspiel.org>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2007 at 08:56:55AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote:
> http://xkcd.com/c224.html

bioperl? :)

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From extasia at extasia.org  Sat Feb 17 14:02:47 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:02:47 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] /usr/local/foo/ for cpan and locally grown modules
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701241953n510935dfub98888e94af90d9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701250923.l0P9N2SU023884@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070125193313.GA33310@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>

FYI, this didn't work:

  perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO

That is, using PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO didn't cause a cpan module to be
installed in the /usr/local/FOO tree such that I could include it
with:

    use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";
    use Some::Module;

But this does work (/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl is a symlink to perl5):

  perl Makefile.PL LIB=/usr/local/FOO/perl5

It caused, for example, Crypt::PasswdMD5 to be installed as:

  /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm

Which is the same location I'm putting home grown modules.

So now I have a single:

  use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";

statement that works both for home grown and installed-from-cpan modules.

Yay!

On 1/29/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> (Assume I'm not allowed to update the "live" perl installation, so I'm
> installing modules in the /usr/local/FOO tree.)  I have:
>
> $ find /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -type f
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Crypt/PasswdMD5/.packlist
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/perllocal.pod
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Log/Transcript.pm
>
> Crypt::PasswdMD5 is from CPAN.  I took Garth's suggestion and did:
>
>   $ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO
>
> and the files were installed as shown above.  Log::Transcript is the
> module I wrote.
>
> Ideally, I'd like to have users be able to include a single "use ..."
> statement in the code.[1]  I'd like it to be:
>
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>         # or /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl if I make the latter a symlink to
> the former
>
> Not two:
>
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl";
>
> Based on Quinn's suggestion, I thought the former might allow a
> program to pick up both Log::Transcript (or, home-grown modules) and
> Crypt::PasswdMD5 (or, cpan installed modules).  But it doesn't pick up
> the site_perl tree:
>
> $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -MCrypt::PasswdMD5 -e 1
> Can't locate Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm in @INC (@INC contains:
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0 /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0 .).
> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
>
> It's a little clearer here:
>
> $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -e 'print join "\n", @INC'
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>
> Am I missing something that I can use to get a single:
>
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>
> statement to work (i.e., to include the site_perl tree, too)?
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
> [1] There's no hope of getting them to set PERL5LIB in their environment
>
> On 1/25/07, Quinn Weaver <quinn at fairpath.com> wrote:
> > Right.  And in this case, you'd do
> >
> > export PERL5LIB=/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 # bash syntax
> >
> > ... then Perl automatically searches under there for site_perl,
> > site_perl/5.8.0, and all those other weirdly named subdirs that
> > Perl uses to install things.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From mbudash at sonic.net  Sat Feb 17 14:11:26 2007
From: mbudash at sonic.net (Michael Budash)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:11:26 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] /usr/local/foo/ for cpan and locally grown modules
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701241953n510935dfub98888e94af90d9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701250923.l0P9N2SU023884@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070125193313.GA33310@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BF9637A-0641-44E1-A636-3C96BD3F4197@sonic.net>

perldoc -q 'your question here' is your friend!

this is what comes back for "perldoc -q 'my own'":

Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/pod/perlfaq8.pod
        How do I keep my own module/library directory?

        When you build modules, use the PREFIX and LIB options when  
generating Makefiles:

            perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/mydir/perl LIB=/mydir/perl/lib

        then either set the PERL5LIB environment variable before you  
run scripts that use the modules/libraries (see
        perlrun) or say

            use lib ?/mydir/perl/lib?;

        This is almost the same as

            BEGIN {
                unshift(@INC, ?/mydir/perl/lib?);
            }

        except that the lib module checks for machine-dependent  
subdirectories.  See Perl?s lib for more information.


On Feb 17, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Alban wrote:

> FYI, this didn't work:
>
>   perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO
>
> That is, using PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO didn't cause a cpan module to be
> installed in the /usr/local/FOO tree such that I could include it
> with:
>
>     use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";
>     use Some::Module;
>
> But this does work (/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl is a symlink to perl5):
>
>   perl Makefile.PL LIB=/usr/local/FOO/perl5
>
> It caused, for example, Crypt::PasswdMD5 to be installed as:
>
>   /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
>
> Which is the same location I'm putting home grown modules.
>
> So now I have a single:
>
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";
>
> statement that works both for home grown and installed-from-cpan  
> modules.
>
> Yay!
>
> On 1/29/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
>> (Assume I'm not allowed to update the "live" perl installation, so  
>> I'm
>> installing modules in the /usr/local/FOO tree.)  I have:
>>
>> $ find /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -type f
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/ 
>> auto/Crypt/PasswdMD5/.packlist
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/ 
>> perllocal.pod
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Log/Transcript.pm
>>
>> Crypt::PasswdMD5 is from CPAN.  I took Garth's suggestion and did:
>>
>>   $ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO
>>
>> and the files were installed as shown above.  Log::Transcript is the
>> module I wrote.
>>
>> Ideally, I'd like to have users be able to include a single "use ..."
>> statement in the code.[1]  I'd like it to be:
>>
>>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>>         # or /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl if I make the latter a  
>> symlink to
>> the former
>>
>> Not two:
>>
>>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl";
>>
>> Based on Quinn's suggestion, I thought the former might allow a
>> program to pick up both Log::Transcript (or, home-grown modules) and
>> Crypt::PasswdMD5 (or, cpan installed modules).  But it doesn't  
>> pick up
>> the site_perl tree:
>>
>> $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 - 
>> MCrypt::PasswdMD5 -e 1
>> Can't locate Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm in @INC (@INC contains:
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0 /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
>> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0 .).
>> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
>>
>> It's a little clearer here:
>>
>> $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -e 'print join  
>> "\n", @INC'
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
>> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
>> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
>> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>>
>> Am I missing something that I can use to get a single:
>>
>>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
>>
>> statement to work (i.e., to include the site_perl tree, too)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David
>>
>> [1] There's no hope of getting them to set PERL5LIB in their  
>> environment
>>
>> On 1/25/07, Quinn Weaver <quinn at fairpath.com> wrote:
>>> Right.  And in this case, you'd do
>>>
>>> export PERL5LIB=/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 # bash syntax
>>>
>>> ... then Perl automatically searches under there for site_perl,
>>> site_perl/5.8.0, and all those other weirdly named subdirs that
>>> Perl uses to install things.
>
> -- 
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.



From extasia at extasia.org  Sat Feb 17 15:50:54 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:50:54 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] /usr/local/foo/ for cpan and locally grown modules
In-Reply-To: <7BF9637A-0641-44E1-A636-3C96BD3F4197@sonic.net>
References: <4c714a9c0701241953n510935dfub98888e94af90d9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701250923.l0P9N2SU023884@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070125193313.GA33310@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BF9637A-0641-44E1-A636-3C96BD3F4197@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702171550j3d8ec538u811b5444e01419c6@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent.  Thank you.

On 2/17/07, Michael Budash <mbudash at sonic.net> wrote:
> Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/pod/perlfaq8.pod
>         How do I keep my own module/library directory?
>
>         When you build modules, use the PREFIX and LIB options when
> generating Makefiles:
>
>             perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/mydir/perl LIB=/mydir/perl/lib
>
>         then either set the PERL5LIB environment variable before you
> run scripts that use the modules/libraries (see
>         perlrun) or say
>
>             use lib '/mydir/perl/lib';
>
>         This is almost the same as
>
>             BEGIN {
>                 unshift(@INC, '/mydir/perl/lib');
>             }
>
>         except that the lib module checks for machine-dependent
> subdirectories.  See Perl's lib for more information.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From garth.webb at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 16:42:38 2007
From: garth.webb at gmail.com (Garth Webb)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:42:38 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] /usr/local/foo/ for cpan and locally grown modules
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701241953n510935dfub98888e94af90d9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701250923.l0P9N2SU023884@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070125193313.GA33310@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0d982e10702191642i15921480p5aa98afbe1aa93a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/17/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
>
> FYI, this didn't work:
>
>   perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO
>
> That is, using PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO didn't cause a cpan module to be
> installed in the /usr/local/FOO tree such that I could include it
> with:
>
>     use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";
>     use Some::Module;


You don't need to include it as "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl".  If you use
PREFIX just use that same value for 'use lib', ie:

  $ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX /usr/local/FOO
  ...
  $ cat yourprog.pl
  #!/usr/bin/perl -w

  use lib qw(/usr/local/FOO);
  ...

'lib' knows how to find your modules.

Garth


But this does work (/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl is a symlink to perl5):
>
>   perl Makefile.PL LIB=/usr/local/FOO/perl5
>
> It caused, for example, Crypt::PasswdMD5 to be installed as:
>
>   /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
>
> Which is the same location I'm putting home grown modules.
>
> So now I have a single:
>
>   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl";
>
> statement that works both for home grown and installed-from-cpan modules.
>
> Yay!
>
> On 1/29/07, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> > (Assume I'm not allowed to update the "live" perl installation, so I'm
> > installing modules in the /usr/local/FOO tree.)  I have:
> >
> > $ find /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -type f
> >
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Crypt/PasswdMD5/.packlist
> >
> /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/perllocal.pod
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/Log/Transcript.pm
> >
> > Crypt::PasswdMD5 is from CPAN.  I took Garth's suggestion and did:
> >
> >   $ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=/usr/local/FOO
> >
> > and the files were installed as shown above.  Log::Transcript is the
> > module I wrote.
> >
> > Ideally, I'd like to have users be able to include a single "use ..."
> > statement in the code.[1]  I'd like it to be:
> >
> >   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
> >         # or /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl if I make the latter a symlink to
> > the former
> >
> > Not two:
> >
> >   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
> >   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/site_perl";
> >
> > Based on Quinn's suggestion, I thought the former might allow a
> > program to pick up both Log::Transcript (or, home-grown modules) and
> > Crypt::PasswdMD5 (or, cpan installed modules).  But it doesn't pick up
> > the site_perl tree:
> >
> > $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -MCrypt::PasswdMD5 -e
> 1
> > Can't locate Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm in @INC (@INC contains:
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0 /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0 .).
> > BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
> >
> > It's a little clearer here:
> >
> > $ unset PERL5LIB; perl -I/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 -e 'print join "\n",
> @INC'
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> > /usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> >
> > Am I missing something that I can use to get a single:
> >
> >   use lib "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5";
> >
> > statement to work (i.e., to include the site_perl tree, too)?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
> >
> > [1] There's no hope of getting them to set PERL5LIB in their environment
> >
> > On 1/25/07, Quinn Weaver <quinn at fairpath.com> wrote:
> > > Right.  And in this case, you'd do
> > >
> > > export PERL5LIB=/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl5 # bash syntax
> > >
> > > ... then Perl automatically searches under there for site_perl,
> > > site_perl/5.8.0, and all those other weirdly named subdirs that
> > > Perl uses to install things.
>
> --
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>
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From moseley at hank.org  Mon Feb 19 16:59:49 2007
From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:59:49 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] /usr/local/foo/ for cpan and locally grown modules
In-Reply-To: <c0d982e10702191642i15921480p5aa98afbe1aa93a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0701241953n510935dfub98888e94af90d9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701250923.l0P9N2SU023884@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070125193313.GA33310@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<4c714a9c0701291801h2d0ba3aemba3ed6e91529a699@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c714a9c0702171402m1d09e3fci6d06eda23076b979@mail.gmail.com>
	<c0d982e10702191642i15921480p5aa98afbe1aa93a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070220005948.GA10096@hank.org>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 04:42:38PM -0800, Garth Webb wrote:
> You don't need to include it as "/usr/local/FOO/lib/perl".  If you use
> PREFIX just use that same value for 'use lib', ie:
> 
>  $ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX /usr/local/FOO
>  ...
>  $ cat yourprog.pl
>  #!/usr/bin/perl -w
> 
>  use lib qw(/usr/local/FOO);
>  ...
> 
> 'lib' knows how to find your modules.

Not that I've seen.  Either have to specify LIB or add additional
paths to @INC.

$ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=$HOME/crypt

$ make install
Installing /home/moseley/crypt/share/perl/5.8.8/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm
Installing /home/moseley/crypt/man/man3/Crypt::PasswdMD5.3pm
Writing
/home/moseley/crypt/lib/perl/5.8.8/auto/Crypt/PasswdMD5/.packlist
Appending installation info to
/home/moseley/crypt/lib/perl/5.8.8/perllocal.pod


$ PERL5LIB=$HOME/crypt perl -MCrypt::PasswdMD5
Can't locate Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm in @INC (@INC contains:
/home/moseley/crypt /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8
/usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5
/usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl
/usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.7 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.7
/usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.4 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.4
/usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.2
/usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.1
/usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.0 .).
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.




$ perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=$HOME/crypt LIB=$HOME/crypt

$ make install
Manifying blib/man3/Crypt::PasswdMD5.3pm
Installing /home/moseley/crypt/Crypt/PasswdMD5.pm



$ PERL5LIB=$HOME/crypt perl -MCrypt::PasswdMD5  -e 1


-- 
Bill Moseley
moseley at hank.org


From quinn at fairpath.com  Tue Feb 20 12:31:15 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:31:15 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Wednesday, February 28:  Beer and Scripting SIG
Message-ID: <20070220203115.GA41210@fu.funkspiel.org>

Once again we're merging with Rich's excellent Beer and Scripting SIG
(BASS).  More people + more perspectives = better meeting.  In fact,
last month's meeting was so successful that I'm making this the
default for dinner meetings. Thanks, Rich!

All the details are here:  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/  RSVPs
are appreciated.

Thanks,

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From quinn at fairpath.com  Tue Feb 20 12:40:17 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:40:17 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] TWiki talk March 27
Message-ID: <20070220204017.GB41210@fu.funkspiel.org>

Mark your calendars:  Peter Thoeny, author of TWiki, has agreed to
speak in March.  TWiki is a professional-quality, GPL'ed Perl wiki;
Peter has built a company around it.

I still need to get venue confirmation, but I thought I'd mention
it now so y'all can mark your calendars.

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From quinn at fairpath.com  Wed Feb 21 11:10:40 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:10:40 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [george@metaart.org: [oak perl] Fwd: [conspire] RMS
	speaking at Berkley]
Message-ID: <20070221191040.GA50438@fu.funkspiel.org>

Sorry for the late notice, but... RMS is speaking at Berkeley today and
again on Friday (they're different talks).  It's probably nothing
we haven't heard before, but it never hurts to go to the tent
and get some revival. ;)

----- Forwarded message from George Woolley <george at metaart.org> -----

From: George Woolley <george at metaart.org>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:29:29 -0800
To: oakland at pm.org
Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: [conspire] RMS speaking at Berkley



----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: [conspire] RMS speaking at Berkley
Date: Monday 19 February 2007 13:18
From: "Steve Bibayoff" <bibayoff at gmail.com>
To: conspire at linuxmafia.com

Hello,

I just noticed that the BALUG mailing list is down. Could someone, if
they don't mind, forward this info to any and all of the UG's that are
in the area that may be interested. Thanks, Steve.

If anyone is interested, Richard Stallman will be giving a couple of
talks at Berkley this week. There both suppose to be open to the
public.

The first talk is titled "Copyright vs. Community in the Age of
Computer Networks" and is on Wed, Feb. 21 from 4:00-5:00pm at
University of California - Berkeley, HP Auditorium, 306 Soda Hall,
Berkeley CA 91720. Information here:
http://www.fsf.org/events/universityofcaliforniaberkeleyspeech
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Colloquium/Archives/06-07/Spring2007/stallman.sh
tml

The second talk is titled "The Free Software Movement and the
GNU/Linux Operating System" and is on Fri, Feb 23 from 5:00-6:30pm at
same hall and place, University of California Berkeley, HP Auditorium,
306 Soda Hall, Berkeley CA 91720. More information is here:
http://www.fsf.org/events/ucberkeleyspeech2

And, if anybody interested that will be UC Davis area, he will be
giving a talk there on Thursday, Feb 22 from 3:00-4:00pm at University
of California, Davis, 1065 Kemper Hall, 1 Shields Avenue, Davis CA
95616. More information about this talk is here:
http://www.fsf.org/events/ucdavisspeech
http://thistle.cs.ucdavis.edu:8080/seminars/?type=1&talkid=70

Please forward to anyone(or group) who may be interested. Any other
questions, please ask them at rms-assist at gnu.org ,as I don't know any
more info than what I have just posted.


Thanks,

Steve

_______________________________________________
conspire mailing list
conspire at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire

-------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Oakland mailing list
Oakland at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From nheller at silcon.com  Wed Feb 21 21:20:53 2007
From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:20:53 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <20070221191040.GA50438@fu.funkspiel.org>
Message-ID: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>


I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation for an IDE
or an editor for writing Perl scripts?

Any comments are appreciated.




From andy at petdance.com  Wed Feb 21 21:27:29 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:27:29 -0600
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
Message-ID: <12737175-3DEE-4C30-AB64-CE6757E3B2D5@petdance.com>


On Feb 21, 2007, at 11:20 PM, Neil Heller wrote:

>
> I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation  
> for an IDE
> or an editor for writing Perl scripts?

perldoc -q searches the Perl FAQ for words, if you don't want to use  
Google to search the Perl FAQ.

$ perlfaq -q ide

Found in /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/pods/perlfaq3.pod
        Is there an IDE or Windows Perl Editor?
...

and it goes from there.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Wed Feb 21 21:42:37 2007
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:42:37 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
Message-ID: <A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>

If you're on a Mac, I've found that TextMate is a fantastic editor  
for Perl. (And nearly any other language I can think of...) It also  
has compile, run, and debugger support built in, as long as you're  
doing the compiling, running, and debugging on your local machine.  
(You can add remote compile and run support using scripts, but remote  
debugging is harder.)

	http://www.macromates.com/

Personally, I use TextMate instead of using separate Perl, SQL, Java,  
and XML/XSLT IDEs. I have one interface and don't have to keep  
switching tools during my day. That said -- it's not quite as good as  
IntelliJ IDEA for Java or some of the custom SQL IDEs -- but it's  
good enough.

If you're using a Windows OS, there is now a "version" of TextMate  
for Windows: "E Text Editor". I haven't used it, but it seems to be  
nearly the same thing. See the website for details.
	http://e-texteditor.com/blog/2006/textmate_on_windows

On Unix systems, well, there's always emacs or vim. Both can be  
reasonably good IDEs, with a little customization. I had one coworker  
who had emacs set up to do everything you'd possibly expect from a  
Perl IDE and another coworker who did the same for vim.

-- Mike

On Feb 21, 2007, at 9:20 PM, Neil Heller wrote:

>
> I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation  
> for an IDE
> or an editor for writing Perl scripts?
>
> Any comments are appreciated.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Wed Feb 21 21:48:51 2007
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:48:51 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <12737175-3DEE-4C30-AB64-CE6757E3B2D5@petdance.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<12737175-3DEE-4C30-AB64-CE6757E3B2D5@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <D6F4BDDD-E286-4DF9-AD6A-642C8429287F@highwire.stanford.edu>

Wow. That was a trip down memory lane... One of these days I'm going  
to have to go back and read the rest of the perlfaq.

If you do try Eclipse, be sure you have *lots* of free memory. It's  
also a multi-language IDE with great features, but it's a bit of a pig.

-- Mike

On Feb 21, 2007, at 9:27 PM, Andy Lester wrote:

>
> On Feb 21, 2007, at 11:20 PM, Neil Heller wrote:
>
>>
>> I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation
>> for an IDE
>> or an editor for writing Perl scripts?
>
> perldoc -q searches the Perl FAQ for words, if you don't want to use
> Google to search the Perl FAQ.
>
> $ perlfaq -q ide
>
> Found in /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/pods/perlfaq3.pod
>         Is there an IDE or Windows Perl Editor?
> ...
>
> and it goes from there.
>
> xoxo,
> Andy
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Feb 21 22:54:57 2007
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:54:57 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070222065456.GE18594@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Michael Friedman (friedman at highwire.stanford.edu):

> On Unix systems, well, there's always emacs or vim. Both can be  
> reasonably good IDEs, with a little customization. 

In addition, my "IDEs" page on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Devtools/
lists these for Perl development:

   ActiveState's Komodo
   PerlComposer
   WideStudio
   wxPerl

Some in the "General/Editors" category probably also qualify.

-- 
Cheers,              "Here, sanity ... niiiiiice sanity, come to daddy ... okay,
Rick Moen            that's a good sanity ... {*THWONK!*}  _Got_ the bastard." 
rick at linuxmafia.com                                    --AdB

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 22 13:08:40 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:08:40 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu> 
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>


Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:

> Neil Heller wrote:

> > I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation  
> > for an IDE
> > or an editor for writing Perl scripts?

> On Unix systems, well, there's always emacs or vim. Both can be  
> reasonably good IDEs, with a little customization. I had one coworker  
> who had emacs set up to do everything you'd possibly expect from a  
> Perl IDE and another coworker who did the same for vim.

If someone needs help getting emacs set-up for perl work I can probably 
help a little.  There are some vim fans around, also. 


From dave at wrightpopcorn.com  Thu Feb 22 13:37:38 2007
From: dave at wrightpopcorn.com (Dave Turner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:37:38 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>

If you're on a Windows system, look at context http://www.context.cx

In addition to being free, it has syntax highlighters for numerous
languages.




Joe Brenner wrote:
> Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>   
>> Neil Heller wrote:
>>     
>
>   
>>> I would like to find out if someone can offer me a recommendation  
>>> for an IDE
>>> or an editor for writing Perl scripts?
>>>       
>
>   
>> On Unix systems, well, there's always emacs or vim. Both can be  
>> reasonably good IDEs, with a little customization. I had one coworker  
>> who had emacs set up to do everything you'd possibly expect from a  
>> Perl IDE and another coworker who did the same for vim.
>>     
>
> If someone needs help getting emacs set-up for perl work I can probably 
> help a little.  There are some vim fans around, also. 
>
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>
>
>
>   
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From extasia at extasia.org  Thu Feb 22 15:45:37 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:45:37 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>

[with all due respect to those who like syntax highlighting]

I once stopped using speed dialing because it made me forget the phone
numbers eventually.  I wonder if using syntax highlighting can make
you less effective eventually if you have to use an editor that
doesn't have it...

I personally don't like syntax highlighting (but not for the reason
above).  I find the flashing changing colors annoying and distracting.
 I wonder if I'm in the minority...

On 2/22/07, Dave Turner <dave at wrightpopcorn.com> wrote:
>  In addition to being free, it has syntax highlighters for numerous
> languages.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From dave at wrightpopcorn.com  Thu Feb 22 16:04:58 2007
From: dave at wrightpopcorn.com (Dave Turner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:04:58 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DE2FAA.8030703@wrightpopcorn.com>

The time I really find it useful is when I've got mismatched parens,
brackets or curly braces. Then they're much easier to track down as
Context highlights pairs.

Other than that I could give a rip about highlighted syntax.

David Alban wrote:
> [with all due respect to those who like syntax highlighting]
>
> I once stopped using speed dialing because it made me forget the phone
> numbers eventually.  I wonder if using syntax highlighting can make
> you less effective eventually if you have to use an editor that
> doesn't have it...
>
> I personally don't like syntax highlighting (but not for the reason
> above).  I find the flashing changing colors annoying and distracting.
>  I wonder if I'm in the minority...
>
> On 2/22/07, Dave Turner <dave at wrightpopcorn.com> wrote:
>   
>>  In addition to being free, it has syntax highlighters for numerous
>> languages.
>>     
>
>   
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From quinn at fairpath.com  Thu Feb 22 16:48:15 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:48:15 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 03:45:37PM -0800, David Alban wrote:
> [with all due respect to those who like syntax highlighting]
> 
> I once stopped using speed dialing because it made me forget the phone
> numbers eventually.  I wonder if using syntax highlighting can make
> you less effective eventually if you have to use an editor that
> doesn't have it...
> 
> I personally don't like syntax highlighting (but not for the reason
> above).  I find the flashing changing colors annoying and distracting.
>  I wonder if I'm in the minority...

Dunno.  I go through phases with it; sometimes I use it and sometimes
I don't.

I find code position is more salient than color, so I try to
indent my code well.  If I do that, I don't really need syntax
highlighting (or sigils, braces, and semicolons, for that matter--
Python reads at least as well as Perl to me).

All this kinda matches the graphic design research on perceptual
primitives like value, size, and position... kinda.  I wonder if
anyone has ever researched the way these primitives work in the coding
domain.

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From andy at petdance.com  Thu Feb 22 16:54:45 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:54:45 -0600
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
Message-ID: <3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>


On Feb 22, 2007, at 6:48 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote:

> I find code position is more salient than color, so I try to
> indent my code well.  If I do that, I don't really need syntax
> highlighting (or sigils, braces, and semicolons, for that matter--
> Python reads at least as well as Perl to me).

For me, vim's color coding is part of everything I do.  If I do  
anything wrong, it just feels wrong.  For example, if I close a quote  
incorrectly, the rest of my code is purple.  Even if I can't tell  
exactly what's wrong, I just FEEL that there's a problem, and I stop  
until I figure it out.

xoa

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 22 17:03:36 2007
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:03:36 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <3F718A35-8ED6-46FD-A295-9C4C96C88BD3@highwire.stanford.edu>

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:54 PM, Andy Lester wrote:
> For me, vim's color coding is part of everything I do.  If I do
> anything wrong, it just feels wrong.  For example, if I close a quote
> incorrectly, the rest of my code is purple.  Even if I can't tell
> exactly what's wrong, I just FEEL that there's a problem, and I stop
> until I figure it out.

I use syntax coloring for the same reason. However, I'm now a big fan  
of perltidy, which automatically "fixes" any location-of-code errors  
I make accidentally. Between the two, it lets me both catch problems  
more quickly and understand someone else's code more easily.

Since I work in a group with about 20 people all writing their own  
idiosyncratic Perl code, quickly understanding someone else's code is  
extremely helpful. (And don't ask why we don't enforce some coding  
standards. I've tried, but the Boss refuses to let me use  
Perl::Critic or even forced-tidying. :-( )

To bring this back to IDEs, both TextMate and BBEdit on the Mac have  
shortcut key access to running perltidy on a file. You can set up a  
similar thing in any editor that can run outside scripts, if it  
doesn't already have it.

To me, integrated perltidy support is a Required Feature of any Perl  
IDE.

-- Mike


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From dan at keller.com  Thu Feb 22 17:09:29 2007
From: dan at keller.com (Dan Keller)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:09:29 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070222170215.02759170@mail.keller.com>

At 04:54 PM 2/22/2007, Andy Lester wrote:

>For me, vim's color coding is part of everything I do.  If I do  
>anything wrong, it just feels wrong.  For example, if I close a quote  
>incorrectly, the rest of my code is purple.  Even if I can't tell  
>exactly what's wrong, I just FEEL that there's a problem, and I stop  
>until I figure it out.

I agree, when the colors look funny I know something's mismatched
and I better look harder.  Truly a productivity boost, at least for me.

What drives me nuts (and I'm sure it's just a misconfiguration but I
haven't figured it out yet) is vim's "smart" indenting.  Good old vi had
a much more rudimentary auto-indent -- it just indented the same as
the previous line -- but vim tries to be clever, and screws up my
own indents.  So here's my question for you vim wizards:  is there a
way to tell vim to just be vi?  Or at least to just auto-indent the old-
fashioned way?  :-)

Dan Keller
dan at keller.com
http://www.keller.com/dan
+1 415 861-4500 (voice)
+1 415 861-4593 (fax)


From Adam.Morgan at safeway.com  Thu Feb 22 17:42:12 2007
From: Adam.Morgan at safeway.com (Adam Morgan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:42:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070222170215.02759170@mail.keller.com>
Message-ID: <5113C869AE8FD844B3589414188D35A9AD9B13@PHITPR05EXC01.safeway01.ad.safeway.com>

You could try setting the indentexpr="", which takes away any special
routines for handling the indentation, then you want to set autoindent
so that it behaves in the way you like it. If this works then you should
add it to your vimrc file so it is used on every invocation.

-----Original Message-----
From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+adam.morgan=safeway.com at pm.org
[mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+adam.morgan=safeway.com at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Keller
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:09 PM
To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group
Subject: Re: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors

At 04:54 PM 2/22/2007, Andy Lester wrote:

>For me, vim's color coding is part of everything I do.  If I do 
>anything wrong, it just feels wrong.  For example, if I close a quote 
>incorrectly, the rest of my code is purple.  Even if I can't tell 
>exactly what's wrong, I just FEEL that there's a problem, and I stop 
>until I figure it out.

I agree, when the colors look funny I know something's mismatched and I
better look harder.  Truly a productivity boost, at least for me.

What drives me nuts (and I'm sure it's just a misconfiguration but I
haven't figured it out yet) is vim's "smart" indenting.  Good old vi had
a much more rudimentary auto-indent -- it just indented the same as the
previous line -- but vim tries to be clever, and screws up my own
indents.  So here's my question for you vim wizards:  is there a way to
tell vim to just be vi?  Or at least to just auto-indent the old-
fashioned way?  :-)

Dan Keller
dan at keller.com
http://www.keller.com/dan
+1 415 861-4500 (voice)
+1 415 861-4593 (fax)

_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


"MMS <safeway.com>" made the following annotations.
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Warning: 
All e-mail sent to this address will be received by the Safeway corporate e-mail system, and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient.  This e-mail may contain information proprietary to Safeway and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s).  If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient(s), you are notified that you have received this message in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. 
  
==============================================================================


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Feb 22 18:00:59 2007
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:00:59 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <5113C869AE8FD844B3589414188D35A9AD9B13@PHITPR05EXC01.safeway01.ad.safeway.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070222170215.02759170@mail.keller.com>
	<5113C869AE8FD844B3589414188D35A9AD9B13@PHITPR05EXC01.safeway01.ad.safeway.com>
Message-ID: <20070223020059.GM18594@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Adam Morgan (Adam.Morgan at safeway.com):

> You could try setting the indentexpr="", which takes away any special
> routines for handling the indentation, then you want to set autoindent
> so that it behaves in the way you like it. If this works then you should
> add it to your vimrc file so it is used on every invocation.

If, OTOH, the desire is full bug-for-bug compatibility with nvi, just 
$ echo "set nocp" >> ~/.vimrc

-- 
Cheers,              "If these walls could talk... they'd probably say 'No! 
Rick Moen            Not the nails again!  Not the hammer!  NOT THE HAMMER!!!!'"
rick at linuxmafia.com                                -- Jennifer A. Ford

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Feb 22 18:02:47 2007
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:02:47 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <20070223020059.GM18594@linuxmafia.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070222170215.02759170@mail.keller.com>
	<5113C869AE8FD844B3589414188D35A9AD9B13@PHITPR05EXC01.safeway01.ad.safeway.com>
	<20070223020059.GM18594@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20070223020247.GN18594@linuxmafia.com>

I wrote;

> If, OTOH, the desire is full bug-for-bug compatibility with nvi, just 
> $ echo "set nocp" >> ~/.vimrc
 
Er, without the "no" would be more a propos, in this case.  ;->



From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 22 18:09:41 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:09:41 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <3F718A35-8ED6-46FD-A295-9C4C96C88BD3@highwire.stanford.edu> 
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
	<3F718A35-8ED6-46FD-A295-9C4C96C88BD3@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200702230209.l1N29fac094639@kzsu.stanford.edu>


Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:

> Andy Lester wrote:

> > For me, vim's color coding is part of everything I do.  If I do
> > anything wrong, it just feels wrong.  For example, if I close a quote
> > incorrectly, the rest of my code is purple.  Even if I can't tell
> > exactly what's wrong, I just FEEL that there's a problem, and I stop
> > until I figure it out.
> 
> I use syntax coloring for the same reason. 

I've gotten used to emacs' syntax coloring of late, and I suppose it
does help me fix some errors sooner... for example, I like to intermix
pod and code (contra-Conway), but pod has some annoying white-space
sensitivity to it (you're supposed to bracket pod tags with *empty*
lines, not just blank ones).  Syntax highlighting helps a lot with this:
I don't often run podchecker any more.

On the other hand, there's a suprising number of cases where I don't 
get what the syntax coloring is trying to tell me until after I figure
it out ("Oh, *duh* that's a reserved word...").

I do find that emacs' auto-indentation features often highlight simple 
syntax problems (dropped semi-colons, etc)...

> However, I'm now a big fan of perltidy, which automatically "fixes"
> any location-of-code errors I make accidentally. Between the two, it
> lets me both catch problems more quickly and understand someone else's
> code more easily.

perltidy essentially performs the same job as the emacs/cperl-mode 
indent features.

> To me, integrated perltidy support is a Required Feature of any Perl IDE.

I don't think the need is as great in the emacs world, but there 
are methods of doing anything like this you might imagine...

Heh, just stumbled across a new "perltidy-mode":

  http://search.cpan.org/dist/perltidy-mode/

This guy is doing some interesting stuff...

  http://use.perl.org/~jjore/journal/30321


From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 22 18:16:11 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:16:11 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200702230216.l1N2GBxZ094753@kzsu.stanford.edu>


David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:

> [with all due respect to those who like syntax highlighting]
> 
> I once stopped using speed dialing because it made me forget the phone
> numbers eventually.  I wonder if using syntax highlighting can make
> you less effective eventually if you have to use an editor that
> doesn't have it...

I know the sort of problem you're talking about, but syntax highlighting 
isn't likely to do it to you.

On the other hand, I'm a fan of using templates for things of late, 
and they genuinely can make it harder to remember the details of things
I've got in my templates... I personally just don't care very much.
I've always got the templates, and I know how to look the stuff up 
if need be. (But I can imagine it could be embarrassing on a job 
interview: "I thought you said you know how to use this").

> I personally don't like syntax highlighting (but not for the reason
> above).  I find the flashing changing colors annoying and distracting.

I can sympathize, but it probably just means you need to use *different* 
syntax highlighting.  For example, I like cperl-mode in emacs well 
enough, but there's a *really* stupid feature in it where by default 
it likes to highlight spaces at the end of a line with an underscore:
it's too irritating to be believed, (and figuring out how to make it go 
away isn't as easy as it should be, either)...


From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Thu Feb 22 18:20:36 2007
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:20:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <200702230209.l1N29fac094639@kzsu.stanford.edu>
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
	<3F718A35-8ED6-46FD-A295-9C4C96C88BD3@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702230209.l1N29fac094639@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702221815310.20567@app.redhotpenguin.com>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Joe Brenner wrote:
> Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> perltidy essentially performs the same job as the emacs/cperl-mode
> indent features.
>
>> To me, integrated perltidy support is a Required Feature of any Perl IDE.
>
> I don't think the need is as great in the emacs world, but there
> are methods of doing anything like this you might imagine...

I've been using the perltidy macro in Perlnow and have been really happy 
with it - http://obsidianrook.com/perlnow/emacs_as_perl_ide.html#perltidy
(note shameless plug of Joe's emacs ide, which I've been quite happy with)

One other killer feature I've found that I can't live without is 
auto-complete.  There's a vim autocomplete feature in the vim scripts 
archive, but I've been in emacs mode lately and managed to hack in 
autocomplete (well, more like hack in someone else's solution to my .emacs 
file :) ) - http://use.perl.org/~Phred/journal/32324

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 22 20:13:06 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:13:06 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] IDEs and/or Editors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702221815310.20567@app.redhotpenguin.com> 
References: <000601c75641$3c99e4d0$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<A9B244D6-432F-4A5E-9E0E-150912E1A24C@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702222108.l1ML8eM5089953@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<45DE0D22.3060601@wrightpopcorn.com>
	<4c714a9c0702221545o50849151naff296acd255155b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070223004815.GA60943@fu.funkspiel.org>
	<3ABDFF6B-1FCF-485C-AC36-CC5472972970@petdance.com>
	<3F718A35-8ED6-46FD-A295-9C4C96C88BD3@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<200702230209.l1N29fac094639@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0702221815310.20567@app.redhotpenguin.com>
Message-ID: <200702230413.l1N4D6nq096377@kzsu.stanford.edu>

Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com> wrote:

> Joe Brenner wrote:
> > Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > perltidy essentially performs the same job as the emacs/cperl-mode
> > indent features.
> >
> >> To me, integrated perltidy support is a Required Feature of any Perl IDE.
> >
> > I don't think the need is as great in the emacs world, but there
> > are methods of doing anything like this you might imagine...
> 
> I've been using the perltidy macro in Perlnow and have been really happy 
> with it - http://obsidianrook.com/perlnow/emacs_as_perl_ide.html#perltidy
> (note shameless plug of Joe's emacs ide, which I've been quite happy with)

Thanks, I was wondering where I put that note.

I was thinking about adding minimal perltidy support like that to the 
next version of perlnow.el... but if there's a perltidy minor mode 
maybe it's not needed. 

> One other killer feature I've found that I can't live without is 
> auto-complete.  

Which in emacs is essentially just 

  M-C /

without any setup needed. 

Myself, I've never gotten into using that, though... I'm more inclinced to
use the emacs "registers" a lot.  Any long identifier I expect to need to
re-use, I stash in a register.  For example, to save the region to register
"1", you do a "C-x r s 1" and to insert it somewhere else you do a " C-x r i
1" (though myself, I keep the "insert" key bound to "insert-register" because
it's not good for much else).

> I've been in emacs mode lately and managed to hack in 
> autocomplete (well, more like hack in someone else's solution to my .emacs 
> file :) ) - http://use.perl.org/~Phred/journal/32324

Ah, I think I see... you seed the autocomplete system with a list of words 
you expect to be using.  Otherwise I guess it just uses the current buffer 
as a source of completions.


From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 24 01:54:14 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:54:14 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
Message-ID: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>


I found a reason to use a goto!

  if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
    DO_OVER: do { 
      $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
      $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
      unless( $REFLEXIVE ) { 
        if ($i == $j) { 
          goto DO_OVER;
        }
      }
    };


My first thought was to just say "redo", but that's a runtime 
error: you can't use redo outside of a loop.  Not even inside a 
"do" block... which I think counts as another perl oddity.

Of course, this could be re-written something like this, but I 
wouldn't call it an improvement:

  if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
    do { 
      $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
      $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
      } until ( not( $REFLEXIVE ) && ($i != $j) )
    } 


From quinn at fairpath.com  Sat Feb 24 09:07:33 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:07:33 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
References: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070224170733.GA77688@fu.funkspiel.org>

On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 01:54:14AM -0800, Joe Brenner wrote:
> 
> I found a reason to use a goto!
> 
>   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
>     DO_OVER: do { 
>       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) { 
>         if ($i == $j) { 
>           goto DO_OVER;
>         }
>       }
>     };

Hmmn!

> My first thought was to just say "redo", but that's a runtime 
> error: you can't use redo outside of a loop.  Not even inside a 
> "do" block... which I think counts as another perl oddity.
> 
> Of course, this could be re-written something like this, but I 
> wouldn't call it an improvement:
> 
>   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
>     do { 
>       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       } until ( not( $REFLEXIVE ) && ($i != $j) )
>     } 

Furthermore, wouldn't this cause an infinite loop if $REFLEXIVE is true?

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 24 10:48:32 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:48:32 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <20070224170733.GA77688@fu.funkspiel.org> 
References: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
	<20070224170733.GA77688@fu.funkspiel.org>
Message-ID: <200702241848.l1OImWAn071324@kzsu.stanford.edu>

Quinn Weaver <quinn at fairpath.com> wrote:

> Joe Brenner wrote:
> > 
> > I found a reason to use a goto!
> > 
> >   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
> >     DO_OVER: do { 
> >       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
> >       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
> >       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) { 
> >         if ($i == $j) { 
> >           goto DO_OVER;
> >         }
> >       }
> >     };
> 
> Hmmn!
> 
> > My first thought was to just say "redo", but that's a runtime 
> > error: you can't use redo outside of a loop.  Not even inside a 
> > "do" block... which I think counts as another perl oddity.
> > 
> > Of course, this could be re-written something like this, but I 
> > wouldn't call it an improvement:
> > 
> >   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
> >     do { 
> >       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
> >       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
> >       } until ( not( $REFLEXIVE ) && ($i != $j) )
> >     } 
> 
> Furthermore, wouldn't this cause an infinite loop if $REFLEXIVE is true?

Well you know, I said "*something* like this", not "exactly".  

None of my booleans are to be trusted without extensive testing.  
(I should put that in a .sig file.)

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 24 11:09:43 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:09:43 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu> 
References: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200702241909.l1OJ9h9P071626@kzsu.stanford.edu>


Joe Brenner <doom at kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:

> I found a reason to use a goto!
> 
>   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
>     DO_OVER: do { 
>       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) { 
>         if ($i == $j) { 
>           goto DO_OVER;
>         }
>       }
>     };
> 
> 
> My first thought was to just say "redo", but that's a runtime 
> error: you can't use redo outside of a loop.  Not even inside a 
> "do" block... which I think counts as another perl oddity.

Reviewing the docs, this looks like the correct way of saying "I've
never needed to use a goto in my life":

   my $count = 0;
   if ($RANDOMIZE) { 
     {{ 
       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) { 
         if ($i == $j) { 
           redo;
         }
       }
     }}
   }
   
The extra brackets create a loop which is excuted only once. 
That's clear, right? 


From extasia at extasia.org  Sat Feb 24 13:09:35 2007
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:09:35 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
References: <200702240954.l1O9sExN065612@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0702241309n4fff27a8v192c4906abf2e938@mail.gmail.com>

What about making a subroutine out of it, to which you pass $REFLEXIVE
(and maybe $i and $j)?  If after calling pick_numeric( ... )
$REFLEXIVE doesn't have the value you want, you recursively call the
subroutine?  I know some folks don't like recursion, and if you
anticipate a large number of recursive calls it could be a performance
issue, but I thought I'd ask.

On 2/24/07, Joe Brenner <doom at kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:
> I found a reason to use a goto!
>
>   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
>     DO_OVER: do {
>       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) {
>         if ($i == $j) {
>           goto DO_OVER;
>         }
>       }
>     };

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From nheller at silcon.com  Sat Feb 24 18:55:15 2007
From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:55:15 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0702241309n4fff27a8v192c4906abf2e938@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>

In addition to a performance hit (which can be significant, depending on the
memory requirements of the recursive function) you might also run into a
trashing scenario.  Buying new hard disks can get expensive and reinstalling
all your software can suck.


Neil Heller
nheller at silcon.com


-----Original Message-----
From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org
[mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of
David Alban
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:10 PM
To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group
Subject: Re: [sf-perl] a reason to goto


What about making a subroutine out of it, to which you pass $REFLEXIVE (and
maybe $i and $j)?  If after calling pick_numeric( ... ) $REFLEXIVE doesn't
have the value you want, you recursively call the subroutine?  I know some
folks don't like recursion, and if you anticipate a large number of
recursive calls it could be a performance issue, but I thought I'd ask.

On 2/24/07, Joe Brenner <doom at kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:
> I found a reason to use a goto!
>
>   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
>     DO_OVER: do {
>       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) {
>         if ($i == $j) {
>           goto DO_OVER;
>         }
>       }
>     };

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm




From quinn at fairpath.com  Sat Feb 24 20:39:00 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:39:00 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
References: <4c714a9c0702241309n4fff27a8v192c4906abf2e938@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
Message-ID: <20070225043900.GA79944@fu.funkspiel.org>

On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 06:55:15PM -0800, Neil Heller wrote:
> In addition to a performance hit (which can be significant, depending on the
> memory requirements of the recursive function) you might also run into a
> trashing scenario.  Buying new hard disks can get expensive and reinstalling
> all your software can suck.

What do you mean by "trashing scenario"?  Do you mean "thrashing", as
in swapping memory to disk, which could overstress the hard drive
(I guess)?

http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/T/thrash.html

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 24 23:25:23 2007
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:25:23 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i> 
References: <000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
Message-ID: <200702250725.l1P7PN29006277@kzsu.stanford.edu>


David Alban wrote:

> What about making a subroutine out of it, to which you pass $REFLEXIVE (and
> maybe $i and $j)?  If after calling pick_numeric( ... ) $REFLEXIVE doesn't
> have the value you want, you recursively call the subroutine?  I know some
> folks don't like recursion, and if you anticipate a large number of
> recursive calls it could be a performance issue, but I thought I'd ask.

I don't have any particular dislike of recursion [1] -- except that I find
that it *still* takes me forever to debug recursive code -- but I
probably wouldn't resort to it for something like this.  The code as 
written strikes me as fairly straight-forward, it's just that perl's 
quirks were getting in the way of getting it working. 

In case it's not clear, the idea is simply that I want to randomly
choose two integers, but under normal conditions I'd rather that 
they not be the same numbers (however if $REFLEXIVE is set, then 
two identical picks are okay).  

I don't know if it made it out to the list (I think my mail is acting
flaky at the moment) but the perlish way of doing it is probably this:

   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
     {{
       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) {
         if ($i == $j) {
           redo;
         }
       }
     }}
   }

Though if "pick_numeric" were an expensive function, I might prefer
not to redo both picks, and I'd go for *something* like this:

   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
     {
       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       do { 
          $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);       
       } until ($j != $i) || ($REFLEXIVE);
     }
   }



[1] As for worrying about disk thrashing: it's not particuarly difficult
to use a counter to error out if you've exceeded 10000 levels of recursion
or so. 


From quinn at fairpath.com  Sun Feb 25 11:19:01 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:19:01 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <200702250725.l1P7PN29006277@kzsu.stanford.edu>
References: <000001c75888$6535f520$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>
	<200702250725.l1P7PN29006277@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070225191901.GA87926@fu.funkspiel.org>

On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 11:25:23PM -0800, Joe Brenner wrote:

> [...]

> I don't know if it made it out to the list (I think my mail is acting
> flaky at the moment) but the perlish way of doing it is probably this:
> 
>    if ($RANDOMIZE) {
>      {{
>        $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>        $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
>        unless( $REFLEXIVE ) {
>          if ($i == $j) {
>            redo;
>          }
>        }
>      }}
>    }

FYI, it did make it to the list.

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

From nheller at silcon.com  Sun Feb 25 15:00:03 2007
From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:00:03 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <200702250725.l1P7PN29006277@kzsu.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <000301c75930$afb9a530$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>


If I remember correctly (and I may be wrong) this discussion came up with
reference to using "goto" to break out of recursive algorithm.  If I'm
right, what would be the remaining state of the program's internal stack?


Neil Heller
nheller at silcon.com
(510) 862-4387


-----Original Message-----
From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org
[mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Joe
Brenner
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:25 PM
To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group
Subject: Re: [sf-perl] a reason to goto



David Alban wrote:

> What about making a subroutine out of it, to which you pass $REFLEXIVE 
> (and maybe $i and $j)?  If after calling pick_numeric( ... ) 
> $REFLEXIVE doesn't have the value you want, you recursively call the 
> subroutine?  I know some folks don't like recursion, and if you 
> anticipate a large number of recursive calls it could be a performance 
> issue, but I thought I'd ask.

I don't have any particular dislike of recursion [1] -- except that I find
that it *still* takes me forever to debug recursive code -- but I probably
wouldn't resort to it for something like this.  The code as 
written strikes me as fairly straight-forward, it's just that perl's 
quirks were getting in the way of getting it working. 

In case it's not clear, the idea is simply that I want to randomly choose
two integers, but under normal conditions I'd rather that 
they not be the same numbers (however if $REFLEXIVE is set, then 
two identical picks are okay).  

I don't know if it made it out to the list (I think my mail is acting flaky
at the moment) but the perlish way of doing it is probably this:

   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
     {{
       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       unless( $REFLEXIVE ) {
         if ($i == $j) {
           redo;
         }
       }
     }}
   }

Though if "pick_numeric" were an expensive function, I might prefer not to
redo both picks, and I'd go for *something* like this:

   if ($RANDOMIZE) {
     {
       $i = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);
       do { 
          $j = pick_numeric(0, $numb_cards-1);       
       } until ($j != $i) || ($REFLEXIVE);
     }
   }



[1] As for worrying about disk thrashing: it's not particuarly difficult to
use a counter to error out if you've exceeded 10000 levels of recursion or
so. 

_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm




From nheller at silcon.com  Sun Feb 25 15:00:03 2007
From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:00:03 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] a reason to goto
In-Reply-To: <20070225043900.GA79944@fu.funkspiel.org>
Message-ID: <000401c75930$b2da6d30$27130618@your0agqlnep7i>

Yes, exactly.

The only time I use recursion is when traversing trees.

Neil Heller
nheller at silcon.com



-----Original Message-----
From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org
[mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Quinn Weaver
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:39 PM
To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group
Subject: Re: [sf-perl] a reason to goto


On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 06:55:15PM -0800, Neil Heller wrote:
> In addition to a performance hit (which can be significant, depending 
> on the memory requirements of the recursive function) you might also 
> run into a trashing scenario.  Buying new hard disks can get expensive 
> and reinstalling all your software can suck.

What do you mean by "trashing scenario"?  Do you mean "thrashing", as in
swapping memory to disk, which could overstress the hard drive (I guess)?

http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/T/thrash.html

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl
Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/
_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm




From rdm at cfcl.com  Mon Feb 26 19:41:39 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:41:39 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Fwd: Technology and Developing World: Peace Corps,
 Geekcorps, and the One Laptop
Message-ID: <p06230912c209584e27ff@[192.168.1.205]>

This could be interesting...

-r

> Your Organizer, Bosco So, sent the following message to the
> members of The San Francisco Ruby Meetup Group:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry for the late notice...
>
> Wayan Vota, director of Geekcorps, is in town and will be
> talking informally about Technology and the Developing World -
> from Peace Corps, Geekcorps, to the One Laptop.
>
> Date - Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007
> Time - 6:30 PM
> Venue - 21st Amendment, at 563 2nd St, San Francisco.
>
> Come on by, have a drink, and chat with Wayan.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To visit The San Francisco Ruby Meetup Group, go here:
> http://ruby.meetup.com/6/

-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From quinn at fairpath.com  Wed Feb 28 11:58:50 2007
From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:58:50 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [quinn@fairpath.com: Wednesday,
	February 28:  Beer and Scripting SIG]
Message-ID: <20070228195849.GA18181@fu.funkspiel.org>

Hi, everyone,

This is a reminder that we have a Perl Mongers/BASS dinner meeting
tonight.  Unfortunately, I won't be there, as I'm sick. :(

----- Forwarded message from Quinn Weaver <quinn at fairpath.com> -----

Once again we're merging with Rich's excellent Beer and Scripting SIG
(BASS).  More people + more perspectives = better meeting.  In fact,
last month's meeting was so successful that I'm making this the
default for dinner meetings. Thanks, Rich!

All the details are here:  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/  RSVPs
are appreciated.

Thanks,

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Quinn Weaver, independent contractor  |  President, San Francisco Perl Mongers
http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/     |  http://sf.pm.org/