From perlguy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 19:04:31 2005 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:04:31 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] Message-ID: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> -------- Original Message -------- We are starting our search for a full-time seasoned / multi-talented Linux Perl developer. Our company, Lariat Software, LLC., is located in Phoenix AZ. This is a list of some of the products we use for development and tracking purposes. mod_Perl Postgresql Debian Linux Apache CVS Bugzilla This project is 3 years in the making and we have both ASP customers and IP customers. It is a complete browser / web based debt collection system with lots of features and more that need to be added. You can check out the details at http://www.lariatcentral.com/ I will be putting a more detailed job description together in the next week and would like some recommendations of where to search for Perl developers. We are a small company but offer full benefits. Health / 401k / Paid Vacation / Sick days. Thank you for your time. Dennis Scholler Lariat Software, LLC. http://www.lariatsoftware.com/ Tel: 602.749.9933 Fax: 602.749.9966 From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Thu Jun 9 09:47:32 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:47:32 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] In-Reply-To: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> References: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> I'm sorry, but when did offering health insurance, 401K plans, and paid vacation and sick days get to be a special thing that had to be called out in a job posting? Isn't it still the case that a "full-time" job automatically comes with those benefits? I understand that many programming positions have become contract positions, and in that case it's all up to the contract what benefits are provided, but I can't imagine I'm so out-of-date as to have missed a change in what the "standard" benefits are. Am I? -- Mike On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > We are starting our search for a full-time seasoned / multi-talented > Linux > Perl developer. Our company, Lariat Software, LLC., is located in > Phoenix > AZ. > > This is a list of some of the products we use for development and > tracking > purposes. > > mod_Perl > Postgresql > Debian Linux > Apache > CVS > Bugzilla > > > This project is 3 years in the making and we have both ASP customers > and IP > customers. It is a complete browser / web based debt collection > system with > lots of features and more that need to be added. You can check out the > details at http://www.lariatcentral.com/ > > I will be putting a more detailed job description together in the next > week > and would like some recommendations of where to search for Perl > developers. > We are a small company but offer full benefits. Health / 401k / Paid > Vacation / Sick days. > > Thank you for your time. > > Dennis Scholler > Lariat Software, LLC. > http://www.lariatsoftware.com/ > Tel: 602.749.9933 > Fax: 602.749.9966 > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Thu Jun 9 16:31:24 2005 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:31:24 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] References: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <17064.53580.762435.233408@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Michael Friedman on 6/9/2005 09:47 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ I'm sorry, but when did offering health insurance, 401K plans, and paid \_ vacation and sick days get to be a special thing that had to be called \_ out in a job posting? Isn't it still the case that a "full-time" job \_ automatically comes with those benefits? Ha, no. It depends on the company size. Unless a smaller company has outsourced payroll (ala ADP, Checkmate, ...) then, as I understand it, even employee contribution only 401ks are a lot of paperwork and cost to implement. Well, I suppose the cost to implement is similar for large companies, it's just more painful to the company when it's smaller. :-) Presumably some of the message was added to prevent "small company, short job description == spam." Dunno. Regardless, I'm happy Lariat SW LLC is using Perl and seeking local help. David From ExtraMail at cox.net Thu Jun 9 19:15:55 2005 From: ExtraMail at cox.net (Joel) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:15:55 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] In-Reply-To: <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <42A8F7DB.2040503@cox.net> When ur trying to survive as a small company? Michael Friedman wrote: >I'm sorry, but when did offering health insurance, 401K plans, and paid >vacation and sick days get to be a special thing that had to be called >out in a job posting? Isn't it still the case that a "full-time" job >automatically comes with those benefits? > >I understand that many programming positions have become contract >positions, and in that case it's all up to the contract what benefits >are provided, but I can't imagine I'm so out-of-date as to have missed >a change in what the "standard" benefits are. > >Am I? > >-- Mike > >On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > > > >>-------- Original Message -------- >>We are starting our search for a full-time seasoned / multi-talented >>Linux >>Perl developer. Our company, Lariat Software, LLC., is located in >>Phoenix >>AZ. >> >>This is a list of some of the products we use for development and >>tracking >>purposes. >> >>mod_Perl >>Postgresql >>Debian Linux >>Apache >>CVS >>Bugzilla >> >> >>This project is 3 years in the making and we have both ASP customers >>and IP >>customers. It is a complete browser / web based debt collection >>system with >>lots of features and more that need to be added. You can check out the >>details at http://www.lariatcentral.com/ >> >>I will be putting a more detailed job description together in the next >>week >>and would like some recommendations of where to search for Perl >>developers. >>We are a small company but offer full benefits. Health / 401k / Paid >>Vacation / Sick days. >> >>Thank you for your time. >> >>Dennis Scholler >>Lariat Software, LLC. >>http://www.lariatsoftware.com/ >>Tel: 602.749.9933 >>Fax: 602.749.9966 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Phoenix-pm mailing list >>Phoenix-pm at pm.org >>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> >> >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest >Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona >FAX: 270-721-8034 >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > From billn at billn.net Thu Jun 9 23:41:10 2005 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] In-Reply-To: <42A8F7DB.2040503@cox.net> References: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> <42A8F7DB.2040503@cox.net> Message-ID: Keep in mind that some of the simple 'perks' aren't required by law, and are often quite expensive for a small business to offer. In many cases, the cost of a single employee can be 20% to 30% more than just their salary. Point of fact, many hourly employees aren't offered health insurance, to say little of their dependants. I'm a full time, salaried manager, and I won't see two weeks of paid vacation until my second anniversary. Not all companies are the same. - billn On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Joel wrote: > When ur trying to survive as a small company? > > Michael Friedman wrote: > >> I'm sorry, but when did offering health insurance, 401K plans, and paid >> vacation and sick days get to be a special thing that had to be called >> out in a job posting? Isn't it still the case that a "full-time" job >> automatically comes with those benefits? >> >> I understand that many programming positions have become contract >> positions, and in that case it's all up to the contract what benefits >> are provided, but I can't imagine I'm so out-of-date as to have missed >> a change in what the "standard" benefits are. >> >> Am I? >> >> -- Mike >> >> On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: >> >> >> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> We are starting our search for a full-time seasoned / multi-talented >>> Linux >>> Perl developer. Our company, Lariat Software, LLC., is located in >>> Phoenix >>> AZ. >>> >>> This is a list of some of the products we use for development and >>> tracking >>> purposes. >>> >>> mod_Perl >>> Postgresql >>> Debian Linux >>> Apache >>> CVS >>> Bugzilla >>> >>> >>> This project is 3 years in the making and we have both ASP customers >>> and IP >>> customers. It is a complete browser / web based debt collection >>> system with >>> lots of features and more that need to be added. You can check out the >>> details at http://www.lariatcentral.com/ >>> >>> I will be putting a more detailed job description together in the next >>> week >>> and would like some recommendations of where to search for Perl >>> developers. >>> We are a small company but offer full benefits. Health / 401k / Paid >>> Vacation / Sick days. >>> >>> Thank you for your time. >>> >>> Dennis Scholler >>> Lariat Software, LLC. >>> http://www.lariatsoftware.com/ >>> Tel: 602.749.9933 >>> Fax: 602.749.9966 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Phoenix-pm mailing list >>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >>> >>> >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest >> Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona >> FAX: 270-721-8034 >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From perlguy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 10 18:35:05 2005 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:35:05 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status Message-ID: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> All, I really should have sent this email a couple of months ago. I am not going to be able to run the group for an indeterminate amount of time. I would *love* to see the group continue, but I am just not able to head it up at this point. As you know, I've been working more jobs than one. Also, I have had a few health issues recently that are setting me back. I would like to pass the pumpkin to someone else now. :) If there isn't a single individual that wants the position, maybe a small group could take turns. I want the Perl community in Phoenix to thrive and grow. I've been running the group now for about 6 years, so this has not been an easy desicion for me. Doug Miles From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Fri Jun 10 21:20:08 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:20:08 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure out another venue? Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have a lot to thank you for. --Brock On 2005.06.10.18.35, Douglas E. Miles wrote: | All, | | I really should have sent this email a couple of months ago. I am not | going to be able to run the group for an indeterminate amount of time. | I would *love* to see the group continue, but I am just not able to head | it up at this point. As you know, I've been working more jobs than | one. Also, I have had a few health issues recently that are setting me | back. I would like to pass the pumpkin to someone else now. :) If | there isn't a single individual that wants the position, maybe a small | group could take turns. I want the Perl community in Phoenix to thrive | and grow. I've been running the group now for about 6 years, so this | has not been an easy desicion for me. | | Doug Miles | _______________________________________________ | Phoenix-pm mailing list | Phoenix-pm at pm.org | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From vodhner at cox.net Sat Jun 11 09:01:22 2005 From: vodhner at cox.net (Victor Odhner) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:01:22 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we should all check in with some profile information, including geography. I'll start. I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky Harbor airports. Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from 1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. I did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to do anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: ... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and Java and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar (folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. Thanks, Vic From ExtraMail at cox.net Sat Jun 11 11:54:10 2005 From: ExtraMail at cox.net (Joel) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:54:10 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> Message-ID: <42AB3352.5060702@cox.net> I am also on the list but have never been able to make it to any meetings. I also live in the north scottsdale area and could certainly attend if they were north of Dreamy Draw. Perhaps floating meetings around the valley? Are there enough attendees to do that? Joel Victor Odhner wrote: >Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? > >Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can >anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how >many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we >should all check in with some profile information, including geography. > I'll start. > >I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from >time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles >east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for >meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky >Harbor airports. > >Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot >XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from >1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and >shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with >bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. I >did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to do >anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" >according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: > > > >... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the >attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last >line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating >a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and Java >and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with >Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. > >I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX >just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do >build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I >have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar >(folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike >around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. > >Thanks, >Vic >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > From aj at exiledplanet.org Sat Jun 11 12:14:57 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:14:57 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AB3352.5060702@cox.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> <42AB3352.5060702@cox.net> Message-ID: <1118517297.16189.8.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> I think floating meetings around the valley would be a good idea. It's often hard for people "up north" to get "down south," and vice versa. We could even consider having multiple meetings like PLUG does. Of course, we don't have the membership PLUG does, but again, multiple "floating" meetings might help us increase overall attendance. DOUG: Thank you for being the Phoenix.pm pumpking. You did an excellent job! --aj On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 11:54 -0700, Joel wrote: > I am also on the list but have never been able to make it to any > meetings. I also live in the north > scottsdale area and could certainly attend if they were north of Dreamy > Draw. > > Perhaps floating meetings around the valley? Are there enough attendees > to do that? > > Joel > > Victor Odhner wrote: > > >Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? > > > >Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can > >anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how > >many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we > >should all check in with some profile information, including geography. > > I'll start. > > > >I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from > >time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles > >east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for > >meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky > >Harbor airports. > > > >Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot > >XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from > >1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and > >shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with > >bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. I > >did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to do > >anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" > >according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: > > > > > > > >... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the > >attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last > >line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating > >a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and Java > >and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with > >Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. > > > >I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX > >just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do > >build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I > >have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar > >(folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike > >around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. > > > >Thanks, > >Vic > >_______________________________________________ > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Sat Jun 11 15:13:18 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:13:18 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050611221318.GB24695@thelackthereof.org> I think it's a great idea to introduce ourselves. Like I mentioned, I haven't attended many Phoenix.PM meetings because until recently I lived in Flagstaff. Last July I got to go to one where I presented a crazy idea of mine, and had lots of fun and surely scared lots of people. Now I live in Tempe, and work off of Central and McDowell -- but I am willing to travel just about anywhere in the valley for meetings. Personal profile: I am a programmer of all sorts and have been since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. My favorite languages are Perl and OCaml, though I'm happy to discuss any programming language/technology at length. I am a frequentor of perlmonks.org, where you can find me as 'awwaiid' (which is also my screenname on AIM and all over the place if you'd like to get ahold of me). Lately in Perl land I've been doing some work in fancy web-application technology. I've also gotten to use Perl in a large data-management application. In my free time I program, play the harmonica, hang out with my wife at coffee shops, and help run a small non-profit webhosting company (epfarms.org). Oh, and I have a pet rabbit :) I'm interested in a leadership role here because 1) I like Perl 2) I like people who like Perl 3) I like communities, and there is no better way to encourage their existence than direct involvement in the organizational process --Brock http://thelackthereof.org/ On 2005.06.11.09.01, Victor Odhner wrote: | ... | Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can | anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how | many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we | should all check in with some profile information, including geography. | I'll start. | ... From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Sat Jun 11 15:26:56 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:26:56 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <1118517297.16189.8.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> <42AB3352.5060702@cox.net> <1118517297.16189.8.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> Message-ID: <20050611222656.GC24695@thelackthereof.org> Speaking of meetings, how about we have one? It often seems easier to organize and hear people's thoughts in-person. So lets set up a time and place! Anyone have a place to contribute? :) On another note, we used to have a wiki, but it seems that when we lost our phoenix.pm.org site we may have lots our wiki as well. Does anyone have it or a mirror set up? For now the content can be accessed through archive.org, see * http://web.archive.org/web/20041011082726/phoenix.pm.org/?page=welcome I would be happy to slurp all the info from archive.org into a new wiki for us if anyone hasn't already. I *heart* wiki. --Brock On 2005.06.11.12.14, Andrew Johnson wrote: | I think floating meetings around the valley would be a good idea. It's | often hard for people "up north" to get "down south," and vice versa. | We could even consider having multiple meetings like PLUG does. Of | course, we don't have the membership PLUG does, but again, multiple | "floating" meetings might help us increase overall attendance. | | DOUG: Thank you for being the Phoenix.pm pumpking. You did an | excellent job! | | --aj | | On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 11:54 -0700, Joel wrote: | > I am also on the list but have never been able to make it to any | > meetings. I also live in the north | > scottsdale area and could certainly attend if they were north of Dreamy | > Draw. | > | > Perhaps floating meetings around the valley? Are there enough attendees | > to do that? | > | > Joel | > | > Victor Odhner wrote: | > | > >Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? | > > | > >Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can | > >anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how | > >many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we | > >should all check in with some profile information, including geography. | > > I'll start. | > > | > >I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from | > >time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles | > >east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for | > >meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky | > >Harbor airports. | > > | > >Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot | > >XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from | > >1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and | > >shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with | > >bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. I | > >did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to do | > >anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" | > >according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: | > > | > > | > > | > >... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the | > >attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last | > >line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating | > >a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and Java | > >and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with | > >Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. | > > | > >I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX | > >just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do | > >build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I | > >have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar | > >(folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike | > >around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. | > > | > >Thanks, | > >Vic | > >_______________________________________________ | > >Phoenix-pm mailing list | > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org | > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm | > > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ | > Phoenix-pm mailing list | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm | | _______________________________________________ | Phoenix-pm mailing list | Phoenix-pm at pm.org | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From cakrum at cox.net Sat Jun 11 16:17:22 2005 From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:17:22 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> Message-ID: <8a2f4098d9f52e8adeecddd7cb1509ae@cox.net> Hi, I'm Chris Krum. I'm a long time lurker on this list. I've made it to one meeting. (Two if you count the time I accidentally showed up on Doug's birthday when we had that mix up about Feb. 31) The meeting was Scott's presentation about fuzzy logic. (Or was it fuzzy navel's, I forget?:-) I live around 23rd Ave. and Union Hills but I work at 3rd Ave. and Washington so I can make meetings at either end of the valley. However, my wife is rather ill so I usually come home and take over with the kids after work. I've been using perl since '95 and I love it. At work, we were using a WordPerfect for Unix installation to create all of our outgoing communications and it was a disaster. In '99 I talked my bosses into replacing the whole mess with some perl programs and it's been so reliable, we've been expanding it ever since. (My colleagues want to ring my neck though, since they all want to learn Java and don't like perl's syntax.) Anyway, that's me in a nutshell. Look forward to meeting people. Chris. On Jun 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Victor Odhner wrote: > Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? > > Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can > anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how > many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we > should all check in with some profile information, including geography. > I'll start. > > I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from > time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles > east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for > meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky > Harbor airports. > > Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot > XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from > 1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and > shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with > bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. > I > did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to > do > anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" > according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: > > > > ... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the > attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last > line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating > a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and > Java > and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with > Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. > > I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX > just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do > build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I > have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar > (folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike > around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. > > Thanks, > Vic > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From scott at illogics.org Sun Jun 12 13:41:44 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:41:44 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Opportunity [Fwd: Looking for Full Time Perl developer] In-Reply-To: <20050609180611.GC22909@illogics.org> References: <42A7A3AF.6090704@earthlink.net> <82c5d0a8a5d9620b028afc741071f682@highwire.stanford.edu> <20050609180611.GC22909@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050612204144.GA11737@illogics.org> Whooops... as usual, I was sending from the wrong address and then wondering why my messages aren't going through. Probably for the better as some of those were pretty nasty. Here are the nicer ones, resent. -scott On 0, Scott Walters wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Sorry I've been out of the loop, but I'm pissed at all of you about that > Slashdot review thing I begged and bribed for. Odd timing on seeing > your name in my inbox, though, Mike, I almost used you as a job reference > when I couldn't find Doug's phone number. > > And yup, the US tech economy is still bleak. > > I hope you're all miserable. > > -scott > > On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > > I'm sorry, but when did offering health insurance, 401K plans, and paid > > vacation and sick days get to be a special thing that had to be called > > out in a job posting? Isn't it still the case that a "full-time" job > > automatically comes with those benefits? > > > > I understand that many programming positions have become contract > > positions, and in that case it's all up to the contract what benefits > > are provided, but I can't imagine I'm so out-of-date as to have missed > > a change in what the "standard" benefits are. > > > > Am I? > > > > -- Mike > > > > On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > We are starting our search for a full-time seasoned / multi-talented > > > Linux > > > Perl developer. Our company, Lariat Software, LLC., is located in > > > Phoenix > > > AZ. > > > > > > This is a list of some of the products we use for development and > > > tracking > > > purposes. > > > > > > mod_Perl > > > Postgresql > > > Debian Linux > > > Apache > > > CVS > > > Bugzilla > > > > > > > > > This project is 3 years in the making and we have both ASP customers > > > and IP > > > customers. It is a complete browser / web based debt collection > > > system with > > > lots of features and more that need to be added. You can check out the > > > details at http://www.lariatcentral.com/ > > > > > > I will be putting a more detailed job description together in the next > > > week > > > and would like some recommendations of where to search for Perl > > > developers. > > > We are a small company but offer full benefits. Health / 401k / Paid > > > Vacation / Sick days. > > > > > > Thank you for your time. > > > > > > Dennis Scholler > > > Lariat Software, LLC. > > > http://www.lariatsoftware.com/ > > > Tel: 602.749.9933 > > > Fax: 602.749.9966 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > > FAX: 270-721-8034 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Sun Jun 12 13:42:37 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:42:37 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050611024145.GD25750@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611024145.GD25750@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050612204237.GB11737@illogics.org> Scott Walters wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I'll give ya $35 for the group. We can have meetings standing precariously > close to the edges of tarpits. Suiting, I think. Do we have a deal? I > promise not to push more than a few people in. > > -soctt > > On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > > All, > > > > I really should have sent this email a couple of months ago. I am not > > going to be able to run the group for an indeterminate amount of time. > > I would *love* to see the group continue, but I am just not able to head > > it up at this point. As you know, I've been working more jobs than > > one. Also, I have had a few health issues recently that are setting me > > back. I would like to pass the pumpkin to someone else now. :) If > > there isn't a single individual that wants the position, maybe a small > > group could take turns. I want the Perl community in Phoenix to thrive > > and grow. I've been running the group now for about 6 years, so this > > has not been an easy desicion for me. > > > > Doug Miles > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Sun Jun 12 13:43:11 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050611200641.GF25750@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> <20050611200641.GF25750@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050612204311.GC11737@illogics.org> On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? There's quite a queue of outstanding meeting ideas, but sadly they all came from a small set of people. Whomever takes this on will need to motivate people to present, find activities, and draw out the increasingly reclusive lurkers. I suggest we do more Python, Ruby, Pike, TCL, etc tie-ins, broaden the scope, and see if we can't get some life going thta way. I also suggest making mpegs of meetings and posting them online to draw interest and reach a wider audiance. More formally, the pm.org people need to know who the pumpking is, there are mailman passwords, passwords to the Website, user group club contacts at ORA, Apress, and Manning (I can help with the first two if needed), ... Location... or locations as has been suggested and I tend to agree with. Phoenix public library has meeting space for such things. I suggest a number of drinking meetings, and Four Peaks in Tempe is a good pick if you avoid the crowds (Bandersnach had wired and wireless Ethernet, god rest it's soul). Perhaps it would be best if everyone interested in attending meetings (not that there will be many until things are actually rolling again) suggest locations near themselves. Denny's is the only thing open even somewhat late in Fountain Hills. There's Nello's pizza in Scottsdale, which has a great beer selection and is never loud. > Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can > anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how > many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we > should all check in with some profile information, including geography. > I'll start. Yes. Geography would be good. That's the first step to organizing a van pool. I'm at 33.621780, -111.730860 (Fountain Hills, AZ). There were bios on the website. When they moved hosting, they completely broke everything and I couldn't get in to fix it... but maybe it's working again. In that case, I suggest bios be put on the Wiki. I'm afraid to look. Scott Walters in a Nutshell is http://slowass.net/phaedrus/. Have fun untangling that one. I got involved to make connections, socialize, unwind, learn from the community, and when I saw there was need, to help teach. I also liked having a group of people to bounce ideas off of, but I'm bad at creating things people actually want to use. -scott From scott at illogics.org Sun Jun 12 13:47:49 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:47:49 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050611224135.GG25750@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> <42AB3352.5060702@cox.net> <1118517297.16189.8.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> <20050611222656.GC24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050611224135.GG25750@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050612204749.GD11737@illogics.org> Rather than a resend, here's an update. I talked to David Cross. He still has the site but it's broken because it's CGI and CGI is now off. Seems silly not to allow Perl on Perl Mongers sites, but what do I know. Anyway, I'm going through the process of getting the files, putting the up on slowass.net, and getting phoenix.pm.org pointed over there. If anyone has any objections, well, hash it out among yourselves and then I'll see if I can still help after that. Regards, -scott > On 0, Brock wrote: > > > > Speaking of meetings, how about we have one? It often seems easier to > > organize and hear people's thoughts in-person. > > > > So lets set up a time and place! Anyone have a place to contribute? :) > > > > On another note, we used to have a wiki, but it seems that when we lost > > our phoenix.pm.org site we may have lots our wiki as well. Does anyone > > have it or a mirror set up? For now the content can be accessed through > > archive.org, see > > > > * http://web.archive.org/web/20041011082726/phoenix.pm.org/?page=welcome > > > > I would be happy to slurp all the info from archive.org into a new wiki > > for us if anyone hasn't already. I *heart* wiki. > > > > --Brock > > > > On 2005.06.11.12.14, Andrew Johnson wrote: > > | I think floating meetings around the valley would be a good idea. It's > > | often hard for people "up north" to get "down south," and vice versa. > > | We could even consider having multiple meetings like PLUG does. Of > > | course, we don't have the membership PLUG does, but again, multiple > > | "floating" meetings might help us increase overall attendance. > > | > > | DOUG: Thank you for being the Phoenix.pm pumpking. You did an > > | excellent job! > > | > > | --aj > > | > > | On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 11:54 -0700, Joel wrote: > > | > I am also on the list but have never been able to make it to any > > | > meetings. I also live in the north > > | > scottsdale area and could certainly attend if they were north of Dreamy > > | > Draw. > > | > > > | > Perhaps floating meetings around the valley? Are there enough attendees > > | > to do that? > > | > > > | > Joel > > | > > > | > Victor Odhner wrote: > > | > > > | > >Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? > > | > > > > | > >Also, it's probably time to review who we are and why we're here. Can > > | > >anyone tell us how many people have been subscribing to the list, how > > | > >many have been making it to meetings, and where they live? Maybe we > > | > >should all check in with some profile information, including geography. > > | > > I'll start. > > | > > > > | > >I have not made any meetings yet, but have benefited from the list from > > | > >time to time. I live at Thunderbird Rd. and the SR51 and work 8 miles > > | > >east of there at Raintree and the 101, so my convenient reach for > > | > >meetings and GTs is sort of an oval with foci at the Scottsdale and Sky > > | > >Harbor airports. > > | > > > > | > >Personal profile: I am a seasoned Unix programmer and use a dual boot > > | > >XP/Linux system at home. I programmed in Burroughs/Unisys ALGOL from > > | > >1968-1980, in Honeywell COBOL and PL/I from 1981-1995, in Unix C and > > | > >shells since 1988, and in Perl for 11 years. I'm now mostly in C with > > | > >bits of shell and Perl; anything ad hoc I will definitely do in Perl. I > > | > >did Perl CGIs almost exclusively during 2000-2003, and know enough to do > > | > >anything I need to do in Perl. But I only rank as a "Perl User" > > | > >according to Tom Christiansen's rankings: > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > >... with a touch of "Perl Adept"; but I do not aspire to most of the > > | > >attributes of a "Hacker", "Guru" or "Wizard". In response to the last > > | > >line of the "Wizard" definition, for me "the game" is always automating > > | > >a business process. Many of my co-workers, who specialize in C and Java > > | > >and VB, come to me with Perl questions; so apparently I do more with > > | > >Perl than most people. But I often Google for simple pointers. > > | > > > > | > >I wrote an object oriented inference engine in 1984 in Honeywell TEX > > | > >just for fun; but I have not done much with formal objects, though I do > > | > >build some three- and four-level object structures using references. I > > | > >have never programmed in modperl. For recreation I play the guitar > > | > >(folk, country and campfire Christian), and ride my recumbent bike > > | > >around the Valley. I'd like to teach English as a Second Language. > > | > > > > | > >Thanks, > > | > >Vic > > | > >_______________________________________________ > > | > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > > | > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > | > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > _______________________________________________ > > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > | > > | _______________________________________________ > > | Phoenix-pm mailing list > > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From perlguy at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 10:31:54 2005 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:31:54 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42AB0AD2.9030908@cox.net> Message-ID: <42ADC30A.80900@earthlink.net> Victor Odhner wrote: > Doug, could you jot down a quick list of chores needing doing? Organize meetings - Line up presenters - Set date, time, and location Organize event when Perl guru in town - Doesn't happen very often Manage mailing list - Not much work, just look into problems when they occur Interface with O'Reilly/other book publishers - Put banners on the website occasionally Forward job opportunities to the mailing list That's all I can think of right now. I'll add to the list if I remember something else. From perlguy at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 10:48:06 2005 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:48:06 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> Brock wrote: > I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it > further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. > Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure > out another venue? > > Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since > until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have > a lot to thank you for. > > --Brock Brock has thrown his hat in the ring. If no one else is interested, and there are no objections he's got my approval. Comments? From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Mon Jun 13 11:16:21 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:16:21 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Introductions and Good-byes In-Reply-To: <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In the spirit of introductions, I'm Mike Friedman, the red-headed guy who showed up to most of the meetings until his baby was born (last August, 10 monts ago). I live in Tempe, but am usually willing to drive to meetings. I am one of the lucky few who gets to write perl code all day at work, where I designed and maintain (with help) a huge perl installation with hundreds of Objects to handle putting scientific journal articles onto the web. My interests lie in 'getting things done' with Perl, but I try to keep up when Scott starts explaining Perl internals and I find architecture questions really interesting. I *love* Perl's object model and use it to great advantage when I can and think automated testing is the best thing ever. I also do Java programming and have been a long-time Macintosh fan/evangelist. Outside of computing, I have a 10-month-old daughter who takes up all my free time. :-) I've attended every Perlmongers meeting I could and would love to get the group back together. Most of the time there were 5-6 of us at meetings, which meant we fit well around a conference table. The only trouble I have with meeting at coffee shops or bars is that most presentations involved the computer & projector, which doesn't work so well w/o a screen. Perhaps we could all crowd around a laptop for presentations, but that seems uncomfortable. (And as for paper -- paper?? What's that?) Now for the sad/happy news. My wife, who teaches at ASU, has won a prestigious fellowship to do research at UC Santa Cruz this upcoming academic year, so we'll be moving to the Bay Area in about 5-6 weeks. We'll be back in AZ a year from August, a.k.a. as *late* in the summer as possible. :-) So if there's a meeting before I leave, I'd love to attend, but otherwise, I'm not going to be able to make them for a while. :-( I really enjoy Phoenix.pm, so I'll stay on the mailing list even though I'll be in CA. (There's no PerlMongers group in the Bay Area anyway. They're all defunct.) I hope you can get the physical meetings back together, they were always interesting and fun. (Thanks Doug!) I'm looking forward to seeing y'all either soon or in a year! -- Mike --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Mon Jun 13 15:03:46 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:03:46 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Introductions and Good-byes In-Reply-To: References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050613220346.GC22904@illogics.org> Yikes -- we'll miss you. I got exactly one suggestion on typesafety.pm and it came fro you (since then implemented, of course). For coffee shop/ bar meetings, I was thinking 802.11 networking and VNC in slave mode >=) There'd be some fuss while people set up their machines but other than that, it should work, in principle. But I was also thinking of recording mpeg versions of meetings and posting them to the 'net >=) Congrads to your wife on the research fellowship. -scott On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > In the spirit of introductions, I'm Mike Friedman, the red-headed guy > who showed up to most of the meetings until his baby was born (last > August, 10 monts ago). I live in Tempe, but am usually willing to drive > to meetings. I am one of the lucky few who gets to write perl code all > day at work, where I designed and maintain (with help) a huge perl > installation with hundreds of Objects to handle putting scientific > journal articles onto the web. > > My interests lie in 'getting things done' with Perl, but I try to keep > up when Scott starts explaining Perl internals and I find architecture > questions really interesting. I *love* Perl's object model and use it > to great advantage when I can and think automated testing is the best > thing ever. I also do Java programming and have been a long-time > Macintosh fan/evangelist. Outside of computing, I have a 10-month-old > daughter who takes up all my free time. :-) > > I've attended every Perlmongers meeting I could and would love to get > the group back together. Most of the time there were 5-6 of us at > meetings, which meant we fit well around a conference table. The only > trouble I have with meeting at coffee shops or bars is that most > presentations involved the computer & projector, which doesn't work so > well w/o a screen. Perhaps we could all crowd around a laptop for > presentations, but that seems uncomfortable. (And as for paper -- > paper?? What's that?) > > Now for the sad/happy news. My wife, who teaches at ASU, has won a > prestigious fellowship to do research at UC Santa Cruz this upcoming > academic year, so we'll be moving to the Bay Area in about 5-6 weeks. > We'll be back in AZ a year from August, a.k.a. as *late* in the summer > as possible. :-) So if there's a meeting before I leave, I'd love to > attend, but otherwise, I'm not going to be able to make them for a > while. :-( > > I really enjoy Phoenix.pm, so I'll stay on the mailing list even though > I'll be in CA. (There's no PerlMongers group in the Bay Area anyway. > They're all defunct.) I hope you can get the physical meetings back > together, they were always interesting and fun. (Thanks Doug!) > > I'm looking forward to seeing y'all either soon or in a year! > > -- Mike > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From perlguy at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 16:44:59 2005 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:44:59 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Introductions and Good-byes In-Reply-To: References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42AE1A7B.2070708@earthlink.net> Michael Friedman wrote: > In the spirit of introductions, I'm Mike Friedman, the red-headed guy > who showed up to most of the meetings until his baby was born (last > August, 10 monts ago). I live in Tempe, but am usually willing to drive > to meetings. I am one of the lucky few who gets to write perl code all > day at work, where I designed and maintain (with help) a huge perl > installation with hundreds of Objects to handle putting scientific > journal articles onto the web. > > My interests lie in 'getting things done' with Perl, but I try to keep > up when Scott starts explaining Perl internals and I find architecture > questions really interesting. I *love* Perl's object model and use it > to great advantage when I can and think automated testing is the best > thing ever. I also do Java programming and have been a long-time > Macintosh fan/evangelist. Outside of computing, I have a 10-month-old > daughter who takes up all my free time. :-) > > I've attended every Perlmongers meeting I could and would love to get > the group back together. Most of the time there were 5-6 of us at > meetings, which meant we fit well around a conference table. The only > trouble I have with meeting at coffee shops or bars is that most > presentations involved the computer & projector, which doesn't work so > well w/o a screen. Perhaps we could all crowd around a laptop for > presentations, but that seems uncomfortable. (And as for paper -- > paper?? What's that?) > > Now for the sad/happy news. My wife, who teaches at ASU, has won a > prestigious fellowship to do research at UC Santa Cruz this upcoming > academic year, so we'll be moving to the Bay Area in about 5-6 weeks. > We'll be back in AZ a year from August, a.k.a. as *late* in the summer > as possible. :-) So if there's a meeting before I leave, I'd love to > attend, but otherwise, I'm not going to be able to make them for a > while. :-( Good luck! We'll see you when you get back if not before. > I really enjoy Phoenix.pm, so I'll stay on the mailing list even though > I'll be in CA. (There's no PerlMongers group in the Bay Area anyway. > They're all defunct.) I hope you can get the physical meetings back > together, they were always interesting and fun. (Thanks Doug!) Wow. I can't believe there are no groups in the Bay Area. That definitely makes me appreciate the turnout we've had in the past that much more. > I'm looking forward to seeing y'all either soon or in a year! > > -- Mike > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Mon Jun 13 16:46:07 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:46:07 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn official to me. All heil Brock! -scott On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > Brock wrote: > > I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it > > further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. > > Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure > > out another venue? > > > > Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since > > until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have > > a lot to thank you for. > > > > --Brock > > Brock has thrown his hat in the ring. If no one else is interested, and > there are no objections he's got my approval. Comments? > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From aj at exiledplanet.org Mon Jun 13 19:26:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:26:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status Message-ID: <11750938.1118716096774.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> Though I really don't have time to help coordinate, I can possibly help out by doing some presentations. I've been putting together some programs and presentations for our .pm group at work that could be of interest to Phoenix.pm as well. (For those that remember my earlier presentation, rest assured these new talks are under 2 hours!) --aj Scott Walters wrote: __________ >I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn >official to me. All heil Brock! > >-scott > >On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: >> Brock wrote: >> > I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it >> > further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. >> > Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure >> > out another venue? >> > >> > Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since >> > until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have >> > a lot to thank you for. >> > >> > --Brock >> >> Brock has thrown his hat in the ring. If no one else is interested, and >> there are no objections he's got my approval. Comments? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From scott at illogics.org Tue Jun 14 08:07:38 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:07:38 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <11750938.1118716096774.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> References: <11750938.1118716096774.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> Message-ID: <20050614150737.GG22904@illogics.org> On 0, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: > Though I really don't have time to help coordinate, I can possibly help out by doing some presentations. I've been putting together some programs and presentations for our .pm group at work that could be of interest to Phoenix.pm as well. (For those that remember my earlier presentation, rest assured these new talks are under 2 hours!) > > --aj You're giving presentations and not inviting us? Speaking of work, icrossing.com, in Scottsdale Airpark, is looking for Perl programmers strong in OO, Webscraping, text processing, and SQL, especially Postgres. Java is a major plus. -scott > > Scott Walters wrote: > __________ > >I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn > >official to me. All heil Brock! > > > >-scott > > > >On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > >> Brock wrote: > >> > I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it > >> > further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. > >> > Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure > >> > out another venue? > >> > > >> > Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since > >> > until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have > >> > a lot to thank you for. > >> > > >> > --Brock > >> > >> Brock has thrown his hat in the ring. If no one else is interested, and > >> there are no objections he's got my approval. Comments? > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > >_______________________________________________ > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Tue Jun 14 09:50:19 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:50:19 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> Woot! Okay then. My evil plan is falling into place. So, on to the next stage -- meeting. We need a time, a place, and preferably a presentation. For the place, Scott, you mentioned the phoenix library as a potential spot, and that sounds like a good place to begin (for our presentation-based meetings, anyway). * http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/ Did anyone have further details on that, or shall I simply call and find out? The time and topic are also up for grabs :) --Brock On 2005.06.13.16.46, Scott Walters wrote: | I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn | official to me. All heil Brock! | | -scott From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Tue Jun 14 09:59:38 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:59:38 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <11750938.1118716096774.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> References: <11750938.1118716096774.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> Message-ID: <20050614165938.GI24695@thelackthereof.org> On 2005.06.13.19.26, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: Though I really don't have time to help coordinate, I can possibly help out by doing some presentations. I've been putting together some programs and presentations for our .pm group at work that could be of interest to Phoenix.pm as well. (For those that remember my earlier presentation, rest assured these new talks are under 2 hours!) What sort of programs and presentations have you been doing? --Brock From aj at exiledplanet.org Tue Jun 14 10:33:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status Message-ID: <1561332.1118770432068.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> The presentation I'm giving this week at The Day Job is an introduction to POD. It's simple, but a lot of people don't use it, often because they don't understand it. New/intermediate Perl programmers (hopefully) will find it useful; advanced users will probably yawn because it's old hat to them. I'm sure there would be no problem presenting it to Phoenix.pm if people are interested. I'm working on another presentation, but it may only be relevant to The Day Job: what to do when you have no DBD drivers for the quasi-open source database product your Day Job just bought. The programs I'm working on deal with podcasting (using Josh McAdams's XML::RAI::Enclosure module) and PDA file syncing (because syncing with PDAs on *nix platforms is often irritating). Neither of these are ready for presentation yet. I'm not sure the latter is "cool" enough to warrant a presentation, though the former might be, if only to discuss the options available on CPAN for RSS newsfeed publishing. --aj Brock wrote: __________ >On 2005.06.13.19.26, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: > Though I really don't have time to help coordinate, I can possibly > help out by doing some presentations. I've been putting together > some programs and presentations for our .pm group at work that could > be of interest to Phoenix.pm as well. (For those that remember my > earlier presentation, rest assured these new talks are under 2 > hours!) > > >What sort of programs and presentations have you been doing? > >--Brock > >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From aj at exiledplanet.org Tue Jun 14 10:33:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status Message-ID: <583245.1118770439855.JavaMail.teamon@b216.teamon.com> You're not invited because you don't work for "The Day Job." --aj Scott Walters wrote: __________ >On 0, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: >> Though I really don't have time to help coordinate, I can possibly help out by doing some presentations. I've been putting together some programs and presentations for our .pm group at work that could be of interest to Phoenix.pm as well. (For those that remember my earlier presentation, rest assured these new talks are under 2 hours!) >> >> --aj > >You're giving presentations and not inviting us? > >Speaking of work, icrossing.com, in Scottsdale Airpark, is looking for Perl >programmers strong in OO, Webscraping, text processing, and SQL, especially >Postgres. Java is a major plus. > >-scott > >> >> Scott Walters wrote: >> __________ >> >I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn >> >official to me. All heil Brock! >> > >> >-scott >> > >> >On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: >> >> Brock wrote: >> >> > I'd like to step up, if there are no objections. I'm happy to discuss it >> >> > further of course, especially if there is anyone else who is interested. >> >> > Doug, would we still be able to meet at your office or should we figure >> >> > out another venue? >> >> > >> >> > Best of luck, Doug. Though I've only had limited involvement (since >> >> > until recently I lived in Flagstaff :) ) I can clearly see that we have >> >> > a lot to thank you for. >> >> > >> >> > --Brock >> >> >> >> Brock has thrown his hat in the ring. If no one else is interested, and >> >> there are no objections he's got my approval. Comments? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Phoenix-pm mailing list >> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 16 13:32:18 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:32:18 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Good work, Michael! In-Reply-To: <42AE1A7B.2070708@earthlink.net> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <42AE1A7B.2070708@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050616203218.GG22904@illogics.org> "The Thomson Gale publishing group has put together a comprehensive review of Google Scholar, and they find it highly lacking compared with similar offerings from Highwire Press, Scopus, and The Web of Science. Will Google's overhyped offerings drive these superior services out of the market?" - http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/15/1447232&tid=217 Our own Michael Friedman is apparently whooping Google in at least one niche. -scott From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Thu Jun 16 13:56:47 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:56:47 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Good work, Michael! In-Reply-To: <20050616203218.GG22904@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <42AE1A7B.2070708@earthlink.net> <20050616203218.GG22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: <5dd58526098eb7a11a7cd4d1fea6ab9f@highwire.stanford.edu> Thanks Scott! More importantly, we got slashdotted and stayed up. Yay! That's why we've got a whole Sun E450 dedicated to our homepage. :-) Seriously, though, if you are at all interested in metadata searching, take a look at the Gale group review. It makes a lot of good points. For some things Google will be better, for others HighWire Press and other focused "portals". The reason it says we are "whooping" Google is that we work better for the way most serious academics look for articles -- using title, author, journal name, and other metadata. http://www.galegroup.com/free_resources/reference/peter/current.htm The silliest part about this is the idea that we're in competition with Google. We work with them constantly, nearly daily, on a variety of projects. They index all of our fulltext, which forms a large part of the base dataset for Google Scholar and they are working on scanning back issues of lots of our journals for us, since they've got the manpower and are willing to *donate* it (HWP, as part of Stanford University, is non-profit). They aren't trying to put anyone out of business, especially us, because HWP is not in the searching business -- we are in the web publishing business, as are most of their "competition" in this realm. We put up our "portal" searching site because we want to make all this research available to the world, not because it'd make money. Anyway, if anyone wants more info on HighWire Press, who we are, what we do, or how we work, just let me know. We've been hiring, but only if you already live in the Palo Alto, CA area. (Sorry, "non-profit" means "no paid moving expenses".) -- Mike On Jun 16, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > "The Thomson Gale publishing group has put together a comprehensive > review of > Google Scholar, and they find it highly lacking compared with similar > offerings > from Highwire Press, Scopus, and The Web of Science. Will Google's > overhyped > offerings drive these superior services out of the market?" > > - http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/15/1447232&tid=217 > > Our own Michael Friedman is apparently whooping Google in at least one > niche. > > -scott > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From glim at mycybernet.net Thu Jun 16 21:38:00 2005 From: glim at mycybernet.net (Gerard Lim) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:38 -0400 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Last-minute reminder -- YAPC::NA 2005 Message-ID: Here's a last reminder about Yet Another Perl Conference, North America (YAPC::NA 2005) http://yapc.org/America In case anyone out there has been sitting on the fence or has been meaning to register but has put it on the backburner until now, here is a final information package. Dates: Mon - Wed June 27 - 29, 2005 (11 days from now!) Location: 89 Chestnut Street, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Accommodations ============== Due to recent renegotiations with the conference facility and hotel, 89 Chestnut, there are still a few rooms left. For details on accommodations go to: http://www.yapc.org/America/accommodations-2005.shtml For quick and easy booking: 89 Chestnut Phone: +1-416-977-0707 Conference booking code: perl0626 The base rate is approx. CAD$80/night, which is *great* for downtown Toronto. Add in taxes and in-room high speed internet and it's up to about CAD$95/night. Book yourself to check-in on Sunday the 26th and check-out on the morning of Wednesday the 29th. Conference Registration ======================= Registration is easy and cheap - only USD$85 - see http://yapc.org/America/register-2005.shtml for details or register directly online at http://donate.perlfoundation.org/index.pl?node=registrant%20info&conference_id=423 The schedule is awesome - http://yapc.org/America/schedule-2005/day1.html >From here, click on the "Day 2" and "Day 3" spots near the top to go from page to page. Click on a talk name to get details regarding the talk. Speakers include Larry Wall, Allison Randal, Autrijus Tang, Brian Ingerson, Andy Lester, chromatic, brian d foy, Chip Salzenberg & Dan Sugalski... and many more! [ This message was sent by Gerard Lim on behalf of the YAPC::NA 2005 Conference organizing committee of the Toronto Perl Mongers. Thanks for your patience and support. ] From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Thu Jun 16 23:25:04 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:25:04 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> OK, scratch the library idea (at least the main branch)... they have meeting rooms for rent only. On to idea#2 -- lets get together at Nello's pizza in Scottsdale. Based on the responses to the recent thread that seems like a reasonable spot. I'm thinking two weeks from today, on thursday june 30th at 7:00pm. I think this will give everyone enough time to plan on attending. Send emails here if that time/place won't work. It is the thursday before fourth-of-july weekend so I could see possible conflicts there. At the meeting we will have meta-discussions, talking about good meeting places and topics. Though meta-discussions of topics could quite easily lead to actual discussion of topics and I won't discurage that :). And we'll eat drink and be merry. --Brock On 2005.06.14.09.50, Brock wrote: | | Woot! | | Okay then. My evil plan is falling into place. | | So, on to the next stage -- meeting. We need a time, a place, and | preferably a presentation. | | For the place, Scott, you mentioned the phoenix library as a potential | spot, and that sounds like a good place to begin (for our | presentation-based meetings, anyway). | | * http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/ | | Did anyone have further details on that, or shall I simply call and find | out? | | The time and topic are also up for grabs :) | | --Brock | | On 2005.06.13.16.46, Scott Walters wrote: | | I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn | | official to me. All heil Brock! | | | | -scott | | _______________________________________________ | Phoenix-pm mailing list | Phoenix-pm at pm.org | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Fri Jun 17 10:15:37 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:15:37 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> Cool. I'll ask Steph to save us the largest booth. I've been sitting on a promo copy (ORA sent it to me to review) of _CGI Programming with Perl_. It's a fantastic book (in my opinion). It isn't fluffy like most CGI books. It gets down and dirty with the HTTP model, and how CGI is built on top of that, and still stays concise. And it's packed with reference tables -- for form elements, HTTP status codes, SSI tags, CGI.pm stuff, etc, so it's a great quick reference to keep by your desk while you do CGI stuff, especially if you're beginning/intermediate. And it teaches good security practices throughout, something most CGI books completely miss. So everyone should come to the meeting because _CGI Programming with Perl_ is the door prize ;) -scott On 0, Brock wrote: > > OK, scratch the library idea (at least the main branch)... they have > meeting rooms for rent only. > > On to idea#2 -- lets get together at Nello's pizza in Scottsdale. Based > on the responses to the recent thread that seems like a reasonable spot. > I'm thinking two weeks from today, on thursday june 30th at 7:00pm. I > think this will give everyone enough time to plan on attending. Send > emails here if that time/place won't work. It is the thursday before > fourth-of-july weekend so I could see possible conflicts there. > > At the meeting we will have meta-discussions, talking about good meeting > places and topics. Though meta-discussions of topics could quite easily > lead to actual discussion of topics and I won't discurage that :). And > we'll eat drink and be merry. > > --Brock > > On 2005.06.14.09.50, Brock wrote: > | > | Woot! > | > | Okay then. My evil plan is falling into place. > | > | So, on to the next stage -- meeting. We need a time, a place, and > | preferably a presentation. > | > | For the place, Scott, you mentioned the phoenix library as a potential > | spot, and that sounds like a good place to begin (for our > | presentation-based meetings, anyway). > | > | * http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/ > | > | Did anyone have further details on that, or shall I simply call and find > | out? > | > | The time and topic are also up for grabs :) > | > | --Brock > | > | On 2005.06.13.16.46, Scott Walters wrote: > | | I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds pretty darn > | | official to me. All heil Brock! > | | > | | -scott > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Phoenix-pm mailing list > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Fri Jun 17 10:26:40 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:26:40 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: I should be able to be there too. And, since I'm moving, I don't have the fancy new book Scott does, but I'll be bringing at least a couple of things to foist off^w^w offer to the group, so I don't have to move them. The best of the lot is probably "Programming in Python" that I got from the PerlMongers' Christmas gift exchange a year and a half ago. So everyone come to the meeting! -- Mike PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. On Jun 17, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > Cool. I'll ask Steph to save us the largest booth. > > I've been sitting on a promo copy (ORA sent it to me to review) of > _CGI Programming with Perl_. It's a fantastic book (in my opinion). It > isn't fluffy like most CGI books. It gets down and dirty with the > HTTP model, and how CGI is built on top of that, and still stays > concise. And it's packed with reference tables -- for form > elements, HTTP status codes, SSI tags, CGI.pm stuff, etc, so it's > a great quick reference to keep by your desk while you do CGI stuff, > especially if you're beginning/intermediate. And it teaches good > security practices throughout, something most CGI books completely > miss. > > So everyone should come to the meeting because _CGI Programming > with Perl_ is the door prize ;) > > -scott > > > On 0, Brock wrote: >> >> OK, scratch the library idea (at least the main branch)... they have >> meeting rooms for rent only. >> >> On to idea#2 -- lets get together at Nello's pizza in Scottsdale. >> Based >> on the responses to the recent thread that seems like a reasonable >> spot. >> I'm thinking two weeks from today, on thursday june 30th at 7:00pm. I >> think this will give everyone enough time to plan on attending. Send >> emails here if that time/place won't work. It is the thursday before >> fourth-of-july weekend so I could see possible conflicts there. >> >> At the meeting we will have meta-discussions, talking about good >> meeting >> places and topics. Though meta-discussions of topics could quite >> easily >> lead to actual discussion of topics and I won't discurage that :). And >> we'll eat drink and be merry. >> >> --Brock >> >> On 2005.06.14.09.50, Brock wrote: >> | >> | Woot! >> | >> | Okay then. My evil plan is falling into place. >> | >> | So, on to the next stage -- meeting. We need a time, a place, and >> | preferably a presentation. >> | >> | For the place, Scott, you mentioned the phoenix library as a >> potential >> | spot, and that sounds like a good place to begin (for our >> | presentation-based meetings, anyway). >> | >> | * http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/ >> | >> | Did anyone have further details on that, or shall I simply call and >> find >> | out? >> | >> | The time and topic are also up for grabs :) >> | >> | --Brock >> | >> | On 2005.06.13.16.46, Scott Walters wrote: >> | | I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds >> pretty darn >> | | official to me. All heil Brock! >> | | >> | | -scott >> | >> | _______________________________________________ >> | Phoenix-pm mailing list >> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Fri Jun 17 11:23:32 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:23:32 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm Status In-Reply-To: References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050617182332.GK22904@illogics.org> Heh, I know _Programming in Python_. It's a real sleeper. I thought I wanted to learn Python. That book changed my mind. Now, why's Poignant Guide to Ruby, on the other hand, I can't stop reading... http://www.poignantguide.net/ruby/ -scott On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > I should be able to be there too. And, since I'm moving, I don't have > the fancy new book Scott does, but I'll be bringing at least a couple > of things to foist off^w^w offer to the group, so I don't have to move > them. The best of the lot is probably "Programming in Python" that I > got from the PerlMongers' Christmas gift exchange a year and a half > ago. > > So everyone come to the meeting! > > -- Mike > > PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & > Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. > > > On Jun 17, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > > >Cool. I'll ask Steph to save us the largest booth. > > > >I've been sitting on a promo copy (ORA sent it to me to review) of > >_CGI Programming with Perl_. It's a fantastic book (in my opinion). It > >isn't fluffy like most CGI books. It gets down and dirty with the > >HTTP model, and how CGI is built on top of that, and still stays > >concise. And it's packed with reference tables -- for form > >elements, HTTP status codes, SSI tags, CGI.pm stuff, etc, so it's > >a great quick reference to keep by your desk while you do CGI stuff, > >especially if you're beginning/intermediate. And it teaches good > >security practices throughout, something most CGI books completely > >miss. > > > >So everyone should come to the meeting because _CGI Programming > >with Perl_ is the door prize ;) > > > >-scott > > > > > >On 0, Brock wrote: > >> > >>OK, scratch the library idea (at least the main branch)... they have > >>meeting rooms for rent only. > >> > >>On to idea#2 -- lets get together at Nello's pizza in Scottsdale. > >>Based > >>on the responses to the recent thread that seems like a reasonable > >>spot. > >>I'm thinking two weeks from today, on thursday june 30th at 7:00pm. I > >>think this will give everyone enough time to plan on attending. Send > >>emails here if that time/place won't work. It is the thursday before > >>fourth-of-july weekend so I could see possible conflicts there. > >> > >>At the meeting we will have meta-discussions, talking about good > >>meeting > >>places and topics. Though meta-discussions of topics could quite > >>easily > >>lead to actual discussion of topics and I won't discurage that :). And > >>we'll eat drink and be merry. > >> > >>--Brock > >> > >>On 2005.06.14.09.50, Brock wrote: > >>| > >>| Woot! > >>| > >>| Okay then. My evil plan is falling into place. > >>| > >>| So, on to the next stage -- meeting. We need a time, a place, and > >>| preferably a presentation. > >>| > >>| For the place, Scott, you mentioned the phoenix library as a > >>potential > >>| spot, and that sounds like a good place to begin (for our > >>| presentation-based meetings, anyway). > >>| > >>| * http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/ > >>| > >>| Did anyone have further details on that, or shall I simply call and > >>find > >>| out? > >>| > >>| The time and topic are also up for grabs :) > >>| > >>| --Brock > >>| > >>| On 2005.06.13.16.46, Scott Walters wrote: > >>| | I didn't hear any objections or further nominations. Sounds > >>pretty darn > >>| | official to me. All heil Brock! > >>| | > >>| | -scott > >>| > >>| _______________________________________________ > >>| Phoenix-pm mailing list > >>| Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >>| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Phoenix-pm mailing list > >>Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > >_______________________________________________ > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Fri Jun 17 12:36:24 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:36:24 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: Phoenix.pm Meeting Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) --Brock From scott at illogics.org Fri Jun 17 13:53:44 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:53:44 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- YAPC goers? In-Reply-To: <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> In my experience, "meta-meetings" and social meetings in general do very poorly. What's there to decide with Perl Mongers? Nothing. We need presenters. We need entertainment and education. Are we just going to talk about needing these things? That would be silly. And unproductive. Remember, most people don't chare a whit about Perl Mongers, they're interested in Perl. There are far too many organizations in this world that exist for no reason other than to further their own existance. Here's a suggestion. Maybe someone in town was actually able to attend YAPC like I wanted to but couldn't afford. Maybe they could report back and even summerize a few talks and answer questions. -scott On 0, Brock wrote: > On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: > | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & > | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. > > Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: > > Phoenix.pm Meeting > Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics > When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm > Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) > 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ > > In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be > happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of > discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) > > --Brock > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Fri Jun 17 15:48:12 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:48:12 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- YAPC goers? In-Reply-To: <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> I agree completely, which is why I was going for the library meetingplace first. If someone is comming back from YAPC by that time I'd love to hear about it. Anyone? Barring the attendence of an attendee, lets look at the talks/topics presented at YAPC::NA and discuss ones of interest. I for one would love to hear others' thoughts about test-driven design (as Pugs is doing) -- techniques and effectiveness. I believe that Autrijus Tang will be discussing this during his talk. --Brock On 2005.06.17.13.53, Scott Walters wrote: | In my experience, "meta-meetings" and social meetings in general do very | poorly. What's there to decide with Perl Mongers? Nothing. We need | presenters. We need entertainment and education. Are we just going to | talk about needing these things? That would be silly. And | unproductive. Remember, most people don't chare a whit about Perl Mongers, | they're interested in Perl. There are far too many organizations in this | world that exist for no reason other than to further their own existance. | | Here's a suggestion. Maybe someone in town was actually able to attend | YAPC like I wanted to but couldn't afford. Maybe they could report back | and even summerize a few talks and answer questions. | | -scott | | | On 0, Brock wrote: | > On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: | > | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & | > | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. | > | > Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: | > | > Phoenix.pm Meeting | > Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics | > When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm | > Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) | > 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) | > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ | > | > In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be | > happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of | > discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) | > | > --Brock | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Phoenix-pm mailing list | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From ExtraMail at cox.net Fri Jun 17 16:42:38 2005 From: ExtraMail at cox.net (Joel) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:42:38 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- YAPC goers? In-Reply-To: <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <42B35FEE.2070108@cox.net> Wow, I will be able to attend for the first time after being on the list for 4 years....... :-) I'm just a hacker but I just converted a medium sized cgi project to mod_perl and I still can't figure out where I've created a closure that has the infamous variable that is remembered globally. It's just a user name and not the password but anything I can learn about properly scripting for mod_perl would be very cool. Joel Brock wrote: >I agree completely, which is why I was going for the library >meetingplace first. If someone is comming back from YAPC by that time >I'd love to hear about it. Anyone? > >Barring the attendence of an attendee, lets look at the talks/topics >presented at YAPC::NA and discuss ones of interest. I for one would love >to hear others' thoughts about test-driven design (as Pugs is doing) -- >techniques and effectiveness. I believe that Autrijus Tang will be >discussing this during his talk. > >--Brock > > >On 2005.06.17.13.53, Scott Walters wrote: >| In my experience, "meta-meetings" and social meetings in general do very >| poorly. What's there to decide with Perl Mongers? Nothing. We need >| presenters. We need entertainment and education. Are we just going to >| talk about needing these things? That would be silly. And >| unproductive. Remember, most people don't chare a whit about Perl Mongers, >| they're interested in Perl. There are far too many organizations in this >| world that exist for no reason other than to further their own existance. >| >| Here's a suggestion. Maybe someone in town was actually able to attend >| YAPC like I wanted to but couldn't afford. Maybe they could report back >| and even summerize a few talks and answer questions. >| >| -scott >| >| >| On 0, Brock wrote: >| > On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: >| > | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & >| > | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. >| > >| > Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: >| > >| > Phoenix.pm Meeting >| > Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics >| > When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm >| > Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) >| > 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) >| > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ >| > >| > In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be >| > happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of >| > discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) >| > >| > --Brock >| > >| > _______________________________________________ >| > Phoenix-pm mailing list >| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org >| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > From scott at illogics.org Fri Jun 17 20:12:19 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:12:19 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- YAPC goers? In-Reply-To: <42B35FEE.2070108@cox.net> References: <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> <42B35FEE.2070108@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050618031219.GN22904@illogics.org> Well, welcome. I don't know much about mod_perl but I'm sure *someone* does... -scott On 0, Joel wrote: > Wow, I will be able to attend for the first time after being on the list > for 4 years....... :-) > > I'm just a hacker but I just converted a medium sized cgi project to > mod_perl and I still can't figure out where I've created a closure that > has the infamous variable that is remembered globally. It's just a user > name and not the password but anything I can learn about properly > scripting for mod_perl would be very cool. > > Joel > > Brock wrote: > > >I agree completely, which is why I was going for the library > >meetingplace first. If someone is comming back from YAPC by that time > >I'd love to hear about it. Anyone? > > > >Barring the attendence of an attendee, lets look at the talks/topics > >presented at YAPC::NA and discuss ones of interest. I for one would love > >to hear others' thoughts about test-driven design (as Pugs is doing) -- > >techniques and effectiveness. I believe that Autrijus Tang will be > >discussing this during his talk. > > > >--Brock > > > > > >On 2005.06.17.13.53, Scott Walters wrote: > >| In my experience, "meta-meetings" and social meetings in general do very > >| poorly. What's there to decide with Perl Mongers? Nothing. We need > >| presenters. We need entertainment and education. Are we just going to > >| talk about needing these things? That would be silly. And > >| unproductive. Remember, most people don't chare a whit about Perl Mongers, > >| they're interested in Perl. There are far too many organizations in this > >| world that exist for no reason other than to further their own existance. > >| > >| Here's a suggestion. Maybe someone in town was actually able to attend > >| YAPC like I wanted to but couldn't afford. Maybe they could report back > >| and even summerize a few talks and answer questions. > >| > >| -scott > >| > >| > >| On 0, Brock wrote: > >| > On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: > >| > | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & > >| > | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. > >| > > >| > Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: > >| > > >| > Phoenix.pm Meeting > >| > Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics > >| > When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm > >| > Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) > >| > 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) > >| > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ > >| > > >| > In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be > >| > happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of > >| > discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) > >| > > >| > --Brock > >| > > >| > _______________________________________________ > >| > Phoenix-pm mailing list > >| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > >_______________________________________________ > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Tue Jun 21 13:59:11 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:59:11 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Message-ID: <20050621205911.GA3792@illogics.org> Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the same company. I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so I find it confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including jobs.perl.org. Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable programmers ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. -scott ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. Posted: June 21, 2005 Job title: Webbased Application Developer Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc Internal ID: 2346 Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Pay rate: 24-36K Travel: 0% Terms of employment: Salaried employee Length of employment: 2 years Hours: Full time Onsite: yes Description: Webbased Application Development Required skills: perl, sql Desired skills: perl, sql URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ Contact information at: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact ----- End forwarded message ----- From jobs-admin at perl.org Tue Jun 21 10:56:49 2005 From: jobs-admin at perl.org (Perl Jobs) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:56:49 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] mod_perl/DBI programmer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Message-ID: <200506211756.j5LHunuv026679@x3.develooper.com> Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2764 To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. Posted: June 21, 2005 Job title: mod_perl/DBI programmer Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc Internal ID: 2345 Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Pay rate: 24-36K Travel: 0% Terms of employment: Salaried employee Length of employment: unlimited Hours: Full time Onsite: yes Description: Webbased Application Development for the Insurance Industry Required skills: perl, sql, Linux Desired skills: perl, sql, Linux URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ Contact information at: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2764#contact From Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com Tue Jun 21 14:03:08 2005 From: Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com (Loo, Peter) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:03:08 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Message-ID: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F05@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> No wonder the development jobs are going to India and China. The pay sucks. Thank you. Peter -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:59 PM To: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite),Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the same company. I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so I find it confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including jobs.perl.org. Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable programmers ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. -scott ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. Posted: June 21, 2005 Job title: Webbased Application Developer Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc Internal ID: 2346 Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Pay rate: 24-36K Travel: 0% Terms of employment: Salaried employee Length of employment: 2 years Hours: Full time Onsite: yes Description: Webbased Application Development Required skills: perl, sql Desired skills: perl, sql URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ Contact information at: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 22 10:46:40 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:46:40 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A076B@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Is it just me, or is the pay range a bit low? Or is that what you meant by "pushover"? Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:59 PM To: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite),Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the same company. I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so I find it confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including jobs.perl.org. Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable programmers ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. -scott ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. Posted: June 21, 2005 Job title: Webbased Application Developer Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc Internal ID: 2346 Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Pay rate: 24-36K Travel: 0% Terms of employment: Salaried employee Length of employment: 2 years Hours: Full time Onsite: yes Description: Webbased Application Development Required skills: perl, sql Desired skills: perl, sql URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ Contact information at: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 11:05:04 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:05:04 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A076B@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A076B@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <20050622180504.GJ3792@illogics.org> Hi Bobby, Yes, the pay range is low, but I was refering to a more fundamental attitude towards programmers that the low pay is only symptomatic of. I was following up weekly on my hand-written cover letter. The second week, I wrote a brief note explaining that I'm particularly intersted in the job, I'd like to know that they got my coverletter, and even if they already selected someone, I'd like a quick, one minute reply. I get a reply, and it said, "never speak to me in that tone of voice again". Perhaps I'm paranoid, but to me, this says "programmers are plebians not worthy to wallow in my vacinity". So, when I say I think they're looking for a pushover, I mean to say that they're looking for someone completely subservient -- someone possessing no self-interest whatsoever. -scott On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > Is it just me, or is the pay range a bit low? Or is that what you meant > by "pushover"? > > Bobby > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:59 PM > To: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer > (onsite),Maricopa, AZ, Tempe > > > Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the > same company. > I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so > I find it > confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including > jobs.perl.org. > Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable > programmers > ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. > > -scott > > ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- > > Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 > > To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. > To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. > > Posted: June 21, 2005 > > Job title: Webbased Application Developer > > Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc > > Internal ID: 2346 > > Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe > > Pay rate: 24-36K > > Travel: 0% > > Terms of employment: Salaried employee > > Length of employment: 2 years > > Hours: Full time > > Onsite: yes > > Description: Webbased Application Development > > Required skills: perl, sql > > Desired skills: perl, sql > > URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ > > Contact information at: > http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 22 11:25:37 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:25:37 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A08C6@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> WOW! That's all I can say. of course, several other offending comments for them come to mind as well :) -----Original Message----- From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 11:05 AM To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe Hi Bobby, Yes, the pay range is low, but I was refering to a more fundamental attitude towards programmers that the low pay is only symptomatic of. I was following up weekly on my hand-written cover letter. The second week, I wrote a brief note explaining that I'm particularly intersted in the job, I'd like to know that they got my coverletter, and even if they already selected someone, I'd like a quick, one minute reply. I get a reply, and it said, "never speak to me in that tone of voice again". Perhaps I'm paranoid, but to me, this says "programmers are plebians not worthy to wallow in my vacinity". So, when I say I think they're looking for a pushover, I mean to say that they're looking for someone completely subservient -- someone possessing no self-interest whatsoever. -scott On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > Is it just me, or is the pay range a bit low? Or is that what you meant > by "pushover"? > > Bobby > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:59 PM > To: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer > (onsite),Maricopa, AZ, Tempe > > > Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the > same company. > I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so > I find it > confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including > jobs.perl.org. > Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable > programmers > ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. > > -scott > > ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- > > Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 > > To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. > To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. > > Posted: June 21, 2005 > > Job title: Webbased Application Developer > > Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc > > Internal ID: 2346 > > Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe > > Pay rate: 24-36K > > Travel: 0% > > Terms of employment: Salaried employee > > Length of employment: 2 years > > Hours: Full time > > Onsite: yes > > Description: Webbased Application Development > > Required skills: perl, sql > > Desired skills: perl, sql > > URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ > > Contact information at: > http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 11:53:00 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:53:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050622185300.GL3792@illogics.org> Hi everyone, I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise I'll just get a corner booth or something. I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side execute of Perl in user-edited pages) o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you want to cry o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine. Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about his work? Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 interpreter that came out of no-where? Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding my brains out. Thanks, -scott From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Wed Jun 22 12:11:56 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:11:56 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <20050622185300.GL3792@illogics.org> References: <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050622185300.GL3792@illogics.org> Message-ID: I'm more than happy to talk about my work and/or I could dust off my automated testing presentation that I gave a while ago. Personally, though, I'd like to hear the story of _Perl 6 Now_, since I still haven't been able to even find a copy at local bookstores to see what it even looks like. :-( Also, TinyWiki would definitely be worth a presentation. Perhaps we could do a couple of different things? -- Mike On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, > Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose > name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? > If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise > I'll just get a corner booth or something. > > I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right > now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal > account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand > up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: > > o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ > o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side > execute of Perl in user-edited pages) > o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites > o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you > want > to cry > o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- > adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts > to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced > suckiness. > This is another B::Generate hack of mine. > > Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should > we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about > his work? > > Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 > interpreter that came out of no-where? > > Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. > > http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ > > I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and > tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it > was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding > my brains out. > > Thanks, > -scott > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 12:45:11 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:45:11 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617205344.GL22904@illogics.org> <20050617224812.GO24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050622185300.GL3792@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050622194510.GM3792@illogics.org> Hrm. One request for the HTML parsing/scraping suggestion, but I think I'm going to put that off and cater to Michael since it's his last meeting for a while. Sorry. I'll organize it better and do it next time I get a chance. There should be plenty of time for me to talk about the conception, selling, production, etc of P6N and for Michael to talk about High Wire. Then we can have a couple of different things =) -scott On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > I'm more than happy to talk about my work and/or I could dust off my > automated testing presentation that I gave a while ago. > > Personally, though, I'd like to hear the story of _Perl 6 Now_, since I > still haven't been able to even find a copy at local bookstores to see > what it even looks like. :-( Also, TinyWiki would definitely be worth a > presentation. > > Perhaps we could do a couple of different things? > -- Mike > > > On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, > > Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose > > name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? > > If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise > > I'll just get a corner booth or something. > > > > I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right > > now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal > > account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand > > up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: > > > > o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ > > o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side > > execute of Perl in user-edited pages) > > o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites > > o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you > > want > > to cry > > o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- > > adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts > > to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced > > suckiness. > > This is another B::Generate hack of mine. > > > > Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should > > we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about > > his work? > > > > Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 > > interpreter that came out of no-where? > > > > Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. > > > > http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ > > > > I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and > > tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it > > was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding > > my brains out. > > > > Thanks, > > -scott > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com Wed Jun 22 12:42:33 2005 From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:42:33 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: I'm game this time, also, I would be interested in the HTML parsing/scraping. Another topic that would interesting is creating good objects in Perl. Anybody going to OSC this year? -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:45 PM To: Michael Friedman Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions Hrm. One request for the HTML parsing/scraping suggestion, but I think I'm going to put that off and cater to Michael since it's his last meeting for a while. Sorry. I'll organize it better and do it next time I get a chance. There should be plenty of time for me to talk about the conception, selling, production, etc of P6N and for Michael to talk about High Wire. Then we can have a couple of different things =) -scott On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > I'm more than happy to talk about my work and/or I could dust off my > automated testing presentation that I gave a while ago. > > Personally, though, I'd like to hear the story of _Perl 6 Now_, since I > still haven't been able to even find a copy at local bookstores to see > what it even looks like. :-( Also, TinyWiki would definitely be worth a > presentation. > > Perhaps we could do a couple of different things? > -- Mike > > > On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, > > Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose > > name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? > > If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise > > I'll just get a corner booth or something. > > > > I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right > > now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal > > account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand > > up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: > > > > o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ > > o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side > > execute of Perl in user-edited pages) > > o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites > > o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you > > want > > to cry > > o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- > > adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts > > to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced > > suckiness. > > This is another B::Generate hack of mine. > > > > Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should > > we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about > > his work? > > > > Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 > > interpreter that came out of no-where? > > > > Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. > > > > http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ > > > > I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and > > tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it > > was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding > > my brains out. > > > > Thanks, > > -scott > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm ********************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 12:55:34 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:55:34 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050622195534.GN3792@illogics.org> I'm hoping to do OSCON, but it depends how badly I'm stiffed by clients. I'd be at YAPC right now if this last new client actually paid. Grr. Okay. Two votes for HTML parsing/scraping. I have to do it, then. I'll have hand-outs. This is how *I* scrape sites -- it isn't the best way. In fact, I'm hoping people speak up with their own tips and techniques. I have a minimal HTML parser that builds a tree, that's a drop-in replacement for HTML::TreeBuilder that's just a few hundred lines, and I have code that scrapes email from Budweiser's free email service, the Library of Congress (bills, amendments, and votes), scrapes my wishlist off http://half.com, and code that scrapes http://bookcrossing.com to generate XML feeds of book releases per city. And if Michael is still agreeable, we'll do High Wire Press technology too. I'll try to keep it under an hour. -scott On 0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon wrote: > I'm game this time, also, I would be interested in the HTML > parsing/scraping. Another topic that would interesting is creating good > objects in Perl. > > Anybody going to OSC this year? > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:45 PM > To: Michael Friedman > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic > suggestions > > Hrm. One request for the HTML parsing/scraping suggestion, but I think > I'm > going to put that off and cater to Michael since it's his last meeting > for > a while. Sorry. I'll organize it better and do it next time I get a > chance. > There should be plenty of time for me to talk about the conception, > selling, > production, etc of P6N and for Michael to talk about High Wire. Then > we can have a couple of different things =) > > -scott > > > On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > > I'm more than happy to talk about my work and/or I could dust off my > > automated testing presentation that I gave a while ago. > > > > Personally, though, I'd like to hear the story of _Perl 6 Now_, since > I > > still haven't been able to even find a copy at local bookstores to see > > > what it even looks like. :-( Also, TinyWiki would definitely be worth > a > > presentation. > > > > Perhaps we could do a couple of different things? > > -- Mike > > > > > > On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, > > > Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose > > > name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? > > > If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise > > > I'll just get a corner booth or something. > > > > > > I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right > > > now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal > > > account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand > > > up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: > > > > > > o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ > > > o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure > server-side > > > execute of Perl in user-edited pages) > > > o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites > > > o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you > > > want > > > to cry > > > o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- > > > adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference > contexts > > > to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced > > > suckiness. > > > This is another B::Generate hack of mine. > > > > > > Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should > > > we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about > > > his work? > > > > > > Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 > > > interpreter that came out of no-where? > > > > > > Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. > > > > > > http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ > > > > > > I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and > > > tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it > > > was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding > > > my brains out. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -scott > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > > FAX: 270-721-8034 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > ********************************************************************** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient > named above, and may be legally privileged. > If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, > please re-send this communication to the sender and > delete the original message or any copy of it from your > computer system. Thank You. > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From billn at billn.net Wed Jun 22 13:30:46 2005 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer (onsite), Maricopa, AZ, Tempe In-Reply-To: <20050622180504.GJ3792@illogics.org> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A076B@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> <20050622180504.GJ3792@illogics.org> Message-ID: Or, it could just be a small company that can't afford to pay much more. - billn On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Scott Walters wrote: > Hi Bobby, > > Yes, the pay range is low, but I was refering to a more fundamental attitude > towards programmers that the low pay is only symptomatic of. I was following > up weekly on my hand-written cover letter. The second week, I wrote a brief > note explaining that I'm particularly intersted in the job, I'd like to know > that they got my coverletter, and even if they already selected someone, > I'd like a quick, one minute reply. I get a reply, and it said, "never speak > to me in that tone of voice again". Perhaps I'm paranoid, but to me, this says > "programmers are plebians not worthy to wallow in my vacinity". So, when I > say I think they're looking for a pushover, I mean to say that they're looking > for someone completely subservient -- someone possessing no self-interest > whatsoever. > > -scott > > > On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: >> Is it just me, or is the pay range a bit low? Or is that what you meant >> by "pushover"? >> >> Bobby >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On >> Behalf Of Scott Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:59 PM >> To: phoenix-pm at pm.org >> Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [Perl Jobs] Webbased Application Developer >> (onsite),Maricopa, AZ, Tempe >> >> >> Just in case anyone is interested... there's another position from the >> same company. >> I've already pissed these guys off trying to get a reply out of them, so >> I find it >> confusing they keep posting to the various job boards, including >> jobs.perl.org. >> Apparently they need one of those super-special ultra agreeable >> programmers >> ("pushovers"). Oh well. If anyone gets a job there, please report back. >> >> -scott >> >> ----- Forwarded message from Perl Jobs ----- >> >> Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765 >> >> To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe at perl.org. >> To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe at perl.org. >> >> Posted: June 21, 2005 >> >> Job title: Webbased Application Developer >> >> Company name: Xelia Wizard Systems Inc >> >> Internal ID: 2346 >> >> Location: Maricopa, AZ, Tempe >> >> Pay rate: 24-36K >> >> Travel: 0% >> >> Terms of employment: Salaried employee >> >> Length of employment: 2 years >> >> Hours: Full time >> >> Onsite: yes >> >> Description: Webbased Application Development >> >> Required skills: perl, sql >> >> Desired skills: perl, sql >> >> URL for more information: http://azxws.com/ >> >> Contact information at: >> http://jobs.perl.org/job/2765#contact >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 22 13:34:37 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:34:37 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A0D32@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the back and forth, I've lost track. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:56 PM To: Frooninckx Craig - cfroon Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions I'm hoping to do OSCON, but it depends how badly I'm stiffed by clients. I'd be at YAPC right now if this last new client actually paid. Grr. Okay. Two votes for HTML parsing/scraping. I have to do it, then. I'll have hand-outs. This is how *I* scrape sites -- it isn't the best way. In fact, I'm hoping people speak up with their own tips and techniques. I have a minimal HTML parser that builds a tree, that's a drop-in replacement for HTML::TreeBuilder that's just a few hundred lines, and I have code that scrapes email from Budweiser's free email service, the Library of Congress (bills, amendments, and votes), scrapes my wishlist off http://half.com, and code that scrapes http://bookcrossing.com to generate XML feeds of book releases per city. And if Michael is still agreeable, we'll do High Wire Press technology too. I'll try to keep it under an hour. -scott On 0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon wrote: > I'm game this time, also, I would be interested in the HTML > parsing/scraping. Another topic that would interesting is creating good > objects in Perl. > > Anybody going to OSC this year? > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:45 PM > To: Michael Friedman > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic > suggestions > > Hrm. One request for the HTML parsing/scraping suggestion, but I think > I'm > going to put that off and cater to Michael since it's his last meeting > for > a while. Sorry. I'll organize it better and do it next time I get a > chance. > There should be plenty of time for me to talk about the conception, > selling, > production, etc of P6N and for Michael to talk about High Wire. Then > we can have a couple of different things =) > > -scott > > > On 0, Michael Friedman wrote: > > I'm more than happy to talk about my work and/or I could dust off my > > automated testing presentation that I gave a while ago. > > > > Personally, though, I'd like to hear the story of _Perl 6 Now_, since > I > > still haven't been able to even find a copy at local bookstores to see > > > what it even looks like. :-( Also, TinyWiki would definitely be worth > a > > presentation. > > > > Perhaps we could do a couple of different things? > > -- Mike > > > > > > On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I'm getting ready to call Nello's and make a reservation. Brock, > > > Michael, that other fellow who was working with mod_perl whose > > > name I forgot, a companion of mine, and I are going -- who else? > > > If we have about 10 people or more, I can get the patio, otherwise > > > I'll just get a corner booth or something. > > > > > > I was wrong about YAPC's timing... everyone is flying off right > > > now and won't be back until after the weekend, so getting a verbal > > > account is impossible unless it's done by phone. I could stand > > > up and do something (or sit up, I suppose). Off the top of my head: > > > > > > o. The making of _Perl 6 Now_ > > > o. Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure > server-side > > > execute of Perl in user-edited pages) > > > o. How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites > > > o. A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you > > > want > > > to cry > > > o. Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) -- > > > adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference > contexts > > > to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced > > > suckiness. > > > This is another B::Generate hack of mine. > > > > > > Any requests from the short-lists or on anything at all? Or should > > > we make Michael Friedman stand up and give an impromptu talk about > > > his work? > > > > > > Anyone qualified to give an intro talk about Pugs, the Perl 6 > > > interpreter that came out of no-where? > > > > > > Also, ICFP programming contest starts in... oh, crud... two days. > > > > > > http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/ > > > > > > I've been meaning to put together a Phoenix Perl Mongers team and > > > tackling one of these. I've done it independantly in the past and it > > > was a lot of fun -- sleeping four hours in three days and coding > > > my brains out. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -scott > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > > FAX: 270-721-8034 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > ********************************************************************** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient > named above, and may be legally privileged. > If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, > please re-send this communication to the sender and > delete the original message or any copy of it from your > computer system. Thank You. > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Wed Jun 22 13:41:43 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A0D32@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A0D32@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <20050622204143.GX24695@thelackthereof.org> The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in Scottsdale --Brock On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the back | and forth, I've lost track. | | Bobby From Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com Wed Jun 22 13:50:31 2005 From: Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com (Loo, Peter) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:50:31 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F51@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> Hi All, My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in the past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? Thank you. Peter -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Brock Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in Scottsdale --Brock On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the | back and forth, I've lost track. | | Bobby _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 13:59:59 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:59:59 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 In-Reply-To: <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <42AA3FC9.8000303@earthlink.net> <20050611042008.GA24161@thelackthereof.org> <42ADC6D6.2030604@earthlink.net> <20050613234607.GE22904@illogics.org> <20050614165019.GH24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617062504.GK24695@thelackthereof.org> <20050617171537.GI22904@illogics.org> <20050617193624.GL24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050622205959.GQ3792@illogics.org> This was the original announcement. Ooh. It's a week away. I thought it was tomorrow for some resaon. Gah. I should be more organized. I hope everyone else has it straight. That makes it a touch early to call for an RSVP. Whoops. By the way, Nello's is on the north-west corner of the 101 & Shea exchange, in the strip mall, on the west side of the strip mall. There's a Rock Bottom out front whose beer is always infected but people seem to like it anyway for some bizarre reason. We'll figure out a location rotation... eventually. -scott On 0, Brock wrote: > On 2005.06.17.10.26, Michael Friedman wrote: > | PS - This is the Nello's at 8658 E. Shea Road (N.W. corner Shea & > | Pima)? Waaay up North? Oh, well, it's only one meeting. > > Yes, thats the one. Here's a nice block-version of the meeting: > > Phoenix.pm Meeting > Topic: Meta-discussion of meetings and topics > When: Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm > Where: Nello's Pizza (http://www.azeats.com/Nellos/) > 8658 E. Shea Blvd (N.W. Corner of Shea & Pima) > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8658+E+Shea+Blvd,+Scottsdale,+AZ > > In the future I hope to have some floating meetings so everyone will be > happy (or un-happy?) some of the time. But that is the topic of > discussion for the meeting, so I digress :) > > --Brock > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Wed Jun 22 13:55:57 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:55:57 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F51@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> References: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F51@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> Message-ID: Come one, come all! -- Mike On Jun 22, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Loo, Peter wrote: > > Hi All, > > My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in the > past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? > > Thank you. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Brock > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM > To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and > topic > suggestions > > > The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in > Scottsdale > > --Brock > > On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the > | back and forth, I've lost track. > | > | Bobby > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 22 14:06:03 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:06:03 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F51@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> References: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC2088F51@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com> Message-ID: <20050622210603.GS3792@illogics.org> Hi Peter, Yes, absolutely. The more, the merrier. I'm looking forward to meeting you. Regards, -scott On 0, "Loo, Peter" wrote: > > Hi All, > > My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in the > past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? > > Thank you. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Brock > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM > To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic > suggestions > > > The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in Scottsdale > > --Brock > > On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the > | back and forth, I've lost track. > | > | Bobby > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Wed Jun 22 14:40:05 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:40:05 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 Message-ID: <20050622214005.GZ24695@thelackthereof.org> On 2005.06.22.13.59, Scott Walters wrote: | This was the original announcement. Ooh. It's a week away. | I thought it was tomorrow for some resaon. Gah. I should | be more organized. I hope everyone else has it straight. | That makes it a touch early to call for an RSVP. Whoops. Maaannn... I was thinking "dang. this nelly's place must be damn cool" --Brock From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 22 14:48:39 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:48:39 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D4A0EE2@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> I hope to make this my first as well. -----Original Message----- From: Loo, Peter [mailto:Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:51 PM To: Brock; Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: RE: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions Hi All, My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in the past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? Thank you. Peter -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Brock Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in Scottsdale --Brock On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the | back and forth, I've lost track. | | Bobby _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Wed Jun 22 15:30:09 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:30:09 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 In-Reply-To: <20050622214005.GZ24695@thelackthereof.org> References: <20050622214005.GZ24695@thelackthereof.org> Message-ID: <20050622223009.GA24695@thelackthereof.org> er... Nello's. --Brock On 2005.06.22.14.40, Brock wrote: | | On 2005.06.22.13.59, Scott Walters wrote: | | This was the original announcement. Ooh. It's a week away. | | I thought it was tomorrow for some resaon. Gah. I should | | be more organized. I hope everyone else has it straight. | | That makes it a touch early to call for an RSVP. Whoops. | | Maaannn... I was thinking "dang. this nelly's place must be damn cool" | | --Brock | | _______________________________________________ | Phoenix-pm mailing list | Phoenix-pm at pm.org | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From benjamin.trussell at asu.edu Mon Jun 27 15:14:29 2005 From: benjamin.trussell at asu.edu (Benjamin Trussell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:14:29 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: I've been a loooong-time lurker on this list. I would like to finally come out and attend a meeting, so I would also like to RSVP. Thanks, Ben -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Michael Friedman Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:56 PM To: Loo, Peter Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic suggestions Come one, come all! -- Mike On Jun 22, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Loo, Peter wrote: > > Hi All, > > My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in the > past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? > > Thank you. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Brock > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM > To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and > topic > suggestions > > > The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in > Scottsdale > > --Brock > > On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the > | back and forth, I've lost track. > | > | Bobby > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Mon Jun 27 15:23:58 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:23:58 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050627222358.GI3792@illogics.org> Duly noted. Glad to have ya, Benjamin. -scott On 0, Benjamin Trussell wrote: > > I've been a loooong-time lurker on this list. I would like to finally > come out and attend a meeting, so I would also like to RSVP. > > Thanks, > Ben > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > Behalf Of Michael Friedman > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:56 PM > To: Loo, Peter > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and topic > suggestions > > Come one, come all! > -- Mike > > On Jun 22, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Loo, Peter wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > My name is Peter Loo. I have never attended any of the meetings in > the > > past, but would love to attend this one. Am I welcome to do so? > > > > Thank you. > > > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On > > Behalf Of Brock > > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:42 PM > > To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please,and > > topic > > suggestions > > > > > > The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in > > Scottsdale > > > > --Brock > > > > On 2005.06.22.15.34, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > | Sounds very interesting. When is the meeting again? With all the > > | back and forth, I've lost track. > > | > > | Bobby > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest > Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona > FAX: 270-721-8034 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From wlindley at wlindley.com Tue Jun 28 13:21:01 2005 From: wlindley at wlindley.com (Bill Lindley) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:21:01 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <20050627222358.GI3792@illogics.org> References: <20050627222358.GI3792@illogics.org> Message-ID: <42C1B12D.6050708@wlindley.com> My dad and I plan to attend. \\/ http://www.wlindley.com From aj at exiledplanet.org Tue Jun 28 23:43:06 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:43:06 +0000 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions Message-ID: <20050629064450.ZDKR8651.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@COM> Count me in too! --aj Bill Lindley wrote: __________ >My dad and I plan to attend. > >\\/ >http://www.wlindley.com > >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 29 17:51:01 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:51:01 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B0@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> All, I'm out of my comfort zone on this one and looking for extra ideas. I'm trying write a Perl prog from my users that kicks off interactive telnet sessions. During the session I want to spawn other tools based on user input and alter remote device output, e.g. color certain sections of the device output, based on patterns. I've tried this via pure Expect and not gotten where I wanted. I've been playing with Net:Telnet but don't see how to use it for true interactive user IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring me in the face, but right now it eludes me. Thanks, Bobby From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 29 17:54:51 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:54:51 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B4@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Ugh. Sorry for all the grammar errors...it's been a really long day. -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Metz, Bobby W, WCS Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:51 PM To: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor All, I'm out of my comfort zone on this one and looking for extra ideas. I'm trying write a Perl prog from my users that kicks off interactive telnet sessions. During the session I want to spawn other tools based on user input and alter remote device output, e.g. color certain sections of the device output, based on patterns. I've tried this via pure Expect and not gotten where I wanted. I've been playing with Net:Telnet but don't see how to use it for true interactive user IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring me in the face, but right now it eludes me. Thanks, Bobby _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From aj at exiledplanet.org Wed Jun 29 19:33:45 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:33:45 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B4@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B4@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <1120098825.22693.8.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > [snip] > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. Hope this helps. --aj From vodhner at cox.net Wed Jun 29 22:20:42 2005 From: vodhner at cox.net (Victor Odhner) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:20:42 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <20050629064450.ZDKR8651.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@COM> References: <20050629064450.ZDKR8651.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@COM> Message-ID: <42C3812A.50208@cox.net> I may make it. I'm real busy, but I work two miles from Nello's so I might combine it with supper ... From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 29 22:38:27 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:38:27 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting on 6/30/2005 -- RSVP, please, and topic suggestions In-Reply-To: <42C3812A.50208@cox.net> References: <20050629064450.ZDKR8651.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@COM> <42C3812A.50208@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050630053827.GO3792@illogics.org> Dinner will be served, and it would be a pleasure. -scott On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > I may make it. I'm real busy, but I work two miles from Nello's so I > might combine it with supper ... > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From vodhner at cox.net Wed Jun 29 23:09:59 2005 From: vodhner at cox.net (Victor Odhner) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:09:59 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B0@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B0@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <42C38CB7.4050607@cox.net> Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > I think you are stuck with having your client process every byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special functions. In some cases you might want two separate client processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. One trick in this process is that you need to know when you have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be some program out there on the remote host that will produce or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or curses, then it can be really easy. This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing commands to that system and then passing back the formatted results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that would prompt scripted responses by the client. Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, etc. Good luck, Vic From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 29 23:26:32 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:26:32 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <42C38CB7.4050607@cox.net> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B0@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> <42C38CB7.4050607@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050630062632.GP3792@illogics.org> Hi, I'm not in any condition to really comment on this, but being an old MUD player, I've seen a goodly number of telnet emulators written -- and MUD "front end" clients written. "telnet" has its own RFC describing operations (negotiate about window size, etc). It seems like you either want to implement the RFC with a front end or else you're really trying to do something more interesting. But I'm not clear on which case is the case. -scott On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > > > I think you are stuck with having your client process every > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. > > You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and > if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to > the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special > command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog > either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special > functions. In some cases you might want two separate client > processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another > to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a > common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. > > One trick in this process is that you need to know when you > have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you > can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can > carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but > cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. > > Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be > some program out there on the remote host that will produce > or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. > But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote > operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it > gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line > operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or > curses, then it can be really easy. > > This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control > the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or > you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you > won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still > can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. > > Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things > the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing > commands to that system and then passing back the formatted > results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff > received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. > That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's > presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on > the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that > would prompt scripted responses by the client. > > Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client > sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special > commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent > mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating > mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, > etc. > > Good luck, > > Vic > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From aj at exiledplanet.org Thu Jun 30 00:15:25 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:15:25 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <42C38CB7.4050607@cox.net> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A3B0@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> <42C38CB7.4050607@cox.net> Message-ID: <1120115725.22693.18.camel@silverfire.alphamatrix.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 23:09 -0700, Victor Odhner wrote: > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > > > I think you are stuck with having your client process every > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. > Actually, IPC::Open2 (and Open3) are about running a command on the local host and communicating bidirectionally with it via its STDIN and STDOUT (and in the case of Open3, STDERR). That sounded similar to what the original poster wanted to do. However, I have never tried to use IPC::Open* with telnet, so whether it can be used or not is an exercise left for the user. --aj From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 30 06:25:47 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:25:47 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A741@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate expect. :) -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > [snip] > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. Hope this helps. --aj From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 30 06:33:27 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:33:27 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A791@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Ah, to clarify a bit... Users all telnet from local server to remote devices. User interface is X-Term from local server. Certain user commands on remote device will be matched to kick-off other scripts, output to be displayed in second X-Window opened for that purpose. Certain remote device responses return via telnet to user will have X-Term control sequences added to highlight or colorize certain keywords. Hope that clarifies things a bit. I wasn't real clear last night. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:27 PM To: Victor Odhner Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Hi, I'm not in any condition to really comment on this, but being an old MUD player, I've seen a goodly number of telnet emulators written -- and MUD "front end" clients written. "telnet" has its own RFC describing operations (negotiate about window size, etc). It seems like you either want to implement the RFC with a front end or else you're really trying to do something more interesting. But I'm not clear on which case is the case. -scott On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > > > I think you are stuck with having your client process every > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. > > You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and > if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to > the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special > command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog > either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special > functions. In some cases you might want two separate client > processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another > to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a > common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. > > One trick in this process is that you need to know when you > have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you > can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can > carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but > cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. > > Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be > some program out there on the remote host that will produce > or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. > But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote > operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it > gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line > operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or > curses, then it can be really easy. > > This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control > the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or > you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you > won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still > can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. > > Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things > the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing > commands to that system and then passing back the formatted > results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff > received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. > That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's > presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on > the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that > would prompt scripted responses by the client. > > Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client > sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special > commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent > mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating > mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, > etc. > > Good luck, > > Vic > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 30 10:06:23 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:06:23 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A741@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A741@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <20050630170623.GS3792@illogics.org> Ahhh... okay, this is just a fragment, but it sounds like you're having the standard problem of needing to monitor multiple IO handles -- in this case, at least one user and one program launched for the user by the daemon. select() was designed for this, but it's painful for anything beyond trivial applications. All operations must be atomic and must return back to the "select loop". Hence things like POE were created. POE also has an event loop which is little more than a select loop, but you're still restricted to atomic operations that can't block or perform additional IO operations in response to the one that just completed and must instead schedule them for the future. You also don't get any variables that persist between these atomic operations -- all of your data must be instance data or else it's lost when you return back to the event handler. This is only marginally better than a plain select loop. Perl's threads are unusable for any case where the threads must share data or else they'd get the recommendation, but for applications like this, I strongly advocate the Coro module. In fact, there are two chapters on it in _Perl 6 Now_ [blatent self-plug alert]. Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. The structure would be something like this: a listener loop accepts connections and creates a coroutine (the command prompt) for each connection accepted. The command prompt accepts commands (obviously) and creates coroutines for each command that doesn't complete instantly. These command coroutines use IPC::Open2 or IPC::Open3 to open bi-directional or tri-directional pipes to whichever system command is to be run (use the syntax that avoids invoking the shell!). The command coroutines, after setting up the pipe, perform filtering on the data, applying any coloring or highlighting. If a -more- prompt is needed, a coroutine to manage (and filter) all of the command coroutines should be created. Coro::Channel would be used to pass text, objects, etc, between coroutines, but ultimately, one coroutine (the command prompt) would be reading user input and one or more (the command coroutines or the command-coroutine-manager-coroutine) coroutines would write to the user via their socket. I hope this helps. -scott On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a > similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate > expect. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM > To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > > > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > [snip] > > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. > > bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. > Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture > your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back > anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check > out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional > Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is > probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also > find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. > > Hope this helps. > > --aj > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 30 10:12:11 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:12:11 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A791@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A791@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Message-ID: <20050630171211.GT3792@illogics.org> I was assuming colorizing would happen in the original xterm. It would certainly be possible to create invoke xterms with a -display of whereever the user is at and to run a program inside of that xterm, but to run that program in a "wrapper" that colorizes its output. Then the daemon program might be doing something like... system 'xterm', '-display', $calling_host.':0.0', '-e', "goof_ball_wrapper.pl $actual_program_to_launch_in_xterm"; goof_ball_wrapper.pl would run whichever program was meant to be in the xterm. It would use IPC::Open2 and then either fork(), use POE, use threads, or use Coro to, both at the same time, listen for user input on STDIN, and to listen for output to the user from the pipe opened by IPC::Open2. Then it's just a matter of filtering data as it's copied. -scott On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > Ah, to clarify a bit... > > Users all telnet from local server to remote devices. > User interface is X-Term from local server. > Certain user commands on remote device will be matched to kick-off other > scripts, output to be displayed in second X-Window opened for that > purpose. > Certain remote device responses return via telnet to user will have > X-Term control sequences added to highlight or colorize certain > keywords. > > Hope that clarifies things a bit. I wasn't real clear last night. > > Bobby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:27 PM > To: Victor Odhner > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > > > Hi, > > I'm not in any condition to really comment on this, but being > an old MUD player, I've seen a goodly number of telnet emulators > written -- and MUD "front end" clients written. "telnet" has its > own RFC describing operations (negotiate about window size, etc). > It seems like you either want to implement the RFC with a > front end or else you're really trying to do something more > interesting. But I'm not clear on which case is the case. > > -scott > > On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > > > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > > > > > I think you are stuck with having your client process every > > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing > > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the > > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote > > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather > > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it > > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. > > > > You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and > > if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to > > the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special > > command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog > > either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special > > functions. In some cases you might want two separate client > > processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another > > to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a > > common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. > > > > One trick in this process is that you need to know when you > > have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you > > can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can > > carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but > > cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. > > > > Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be > > some program out there on the remote host that will produce > > or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. > > But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote > > operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it > > gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line > > operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or > > curses, then it can be really easy. > > > > This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control > > the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or > > you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you > > won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still > > can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. > > > > Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things > > the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing > > commands to that system and then passing back the formatted > > results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff > > received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. > > That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's > > presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on > > the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that > > would prompt scripted responses by the client. > > > > Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client > > sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special > > commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent > > mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating > > mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, > > etc. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Vic > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 30 10:50:46 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D64AB35@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Yep, that's how I'd planned to launch it. My users default to XTerm which isn't "colorful" on our boxen, so spawning a DTTerm does the trick. I pretty much had it licked in expect but either couldn't get expect to print the remote device prompt in interact mode when matching against full line output and then when I did, expect wouldn't let the user input appear while waiting for a pattern match. Appeared to be a buffering thing similar to Perl and I couldn't find info on it for Expect since the on-line resources for it are a bit thin and contrary to popular myth, the Don Libes "Exploring Expect" book by O'Reilly does NOT include the solution to every Expect issue, at least not in my opinion. I guess if I was a true Unix maven, I'd just write a Tcl/Tk solution. It'd be portable, but man I hated that stuff back in school. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:12 AM To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS Cc: Victor Odhner; phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor I was assuming colorizing would happen in the original xterm. It would certainly be possible to create invoke xterms with a -display of whereever the user is at and to run a program inside of that xterm, but to run that program in a "wrapper" that colorizes its output. Then the daemon program might be doing something like... system 'xterm', '-display', $calling_host.':0.0', '-e', "goof_ball_wrapper.pl $actual_program_to_launch_in_xterm"; goof_ball_wrapper.pl would run whichever program was meant to be in the xterm. It would use IPC::Open2 and then either fork(), use POE, use threads, or use Coro to, both at the same time, listen for user input on STDIN, and to listen for output to the user from the pipe opened by IPC::Open2. Then it's just a matter of filtering data as it's copied. -scott On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > Ah, to clarify a bit... > > Users all telnet from local server to remote devices. > User interface is X-Term from local server. > Certain user commands on remote device will be matched to kick-off other > scripts, output to be displayed in second X-Window opened for that > purpose. > Certain remote device responses return via telnet to user will have > X-Term control sequences added to highlight or colorize certain > keywords. > > Hope that clarifies things a bit. I wasn't real clear last night. > > Bobby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:27 PM > To: Victor Odhner > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > > > Hi, > > I'm not in any condition to really comment on this, but being > an old MUD player, I've seen a goodly number of telnet emulators > written -- and MUD "front end" clients written. "telnet" has its > own RFC describing operations (negotiate about window size, etc). > It seems like you either want to implement the RFC with a > front end or else you're really trying to do something more > interesting. But I'm not clear on which case is the case. > > -scott > > On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: > > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > > > > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... > > > > > I think you are stuck with having your client process every > > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing > > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the > > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote > > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather > > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it > > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. > > > > You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and > > if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to > > the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special > > command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog > > either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special > > functions. In some cases you might want two separate client > > processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another > > to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a > > common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. > > > > One trick in this process is that you need to know when you > > have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you > > can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can > > carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but > > cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. > > > > Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be > > some program out there on the remote host that will produce > > or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. > > But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote > > operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it > > gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line > > operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or > > curses, then it can be really easy. > > > > This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control > > the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or > > you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you > > won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still > > can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. > > > > Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things > > the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing > > commands to that system and then passing back the formatted > > results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff > > received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. > > That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's > > presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on > > the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that > > would prompt scripted responses by the client. > > > > Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client > > sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special > > commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent > > mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating > > mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, > > etc. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Vic > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phoenix-pm mailing list > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Thu Jun 30 10:57:58 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:57:58 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <20050630170623.GS3792@illogics.org> References: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D61A741@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> <20050630170623.GS3792@illogics.org> Message-ID: <20050630175758.GL20199@thelackthereof.org> On 2005.06.30.10.06, Scott Walters wrote: | ... | Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd | still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular | file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows | how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. | ... This is a very cool use for Coro. Thanks for pointing it out, Scott! On another note, did anyone else do the ICFP contest this year? It was all sorts of fun. I'll tell y'all about it tonight if I get a chance. --Brock From aj at exiledplanet.org Thu Jun 30 11:41:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:41:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <11005258.1120156962021.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com> Oh, I thought when you mentioned expect you meant the Expect module on CPAN. Did you try the Expect CPAN module? It's written in Perl (apparently a port from Tcl); it might help relieve some of the buffer problems. --aj "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: __________ >Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a >similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate >expect. :) From aj at exiledplanet.org Thu Jun 30 12:19:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:19:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <14674867.1120159293150.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com> Oh, wait a minute. Did you say you tried the IPC::Session CPAN module? The example it gives in its docs is similar to what you mentioned, but with ssh instead of telnet --aj "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: __________ >Yep, that's how I'd planned to launch it. My users default to XTerm >which isn't "colorful" on our boxen, so spawning a DTTerm does the >trick. I pretty much had it licked in expect but either couldn't get >expect to print the remote device prompt in interact mode when matching >against full line output and then when I did, expect wouldn't let the >user input appear while waiting for a pattern match. Appeared to be a >buffering thing similar to Perl and I couldn't find info on it for >Expect since the on-line resources for it are a bit thin and contrary to >popular myth, the Don Libes "Exploring Expect" book by O'Reilly does NOT >include the solution to every Expect issue, at least not in my opinion. >I guess if I was a true Unix maven, I'd just write a Tcl/Tk solution. >It'd be portable, but man I hated that stuff back in school. > >Bobby > >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] >Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:12 AM >To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS >Cc: Victor Odhner; phoenix-pm at pm.org >Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > > >I was assuming colorizing would happen in the original xterm. It would >certainly be possible to create invoke xterms with a -display of >whereever >the user is at and to run a program inside of that xterm, but to run >that >program in a "wrapper" that colorizes its output. Then the daemon >program might be doing something like... > > system 'xterm', '-display', $calling_host.':0.0', '-e', > "goof_ball_wrapper.pl $actual_program_to_launch_in_xterm"; > >goof_ball_wrapper.pl would run whichever program was meant to be in the >xterm. It would use IPC::Open2 and then either fork(), use POE, use >threads, >or use Coro to, both at the same time, listen for user input on STDIN, >and to >listen for output to the user from the pipe opened by IPC::Open2. Then >it's >just a matter of filtering data as it's copied. > >-scott > >On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: >> Ah, to clarify a bit... >> >> Users all telnet from local server to remote devices. >> User interface is X-Term from local server. >> Certain user commands on remote device will be matched to kick-off >other >> scripts, output to be displayed in second X-Window opened for that >> purpose. >> Certain remote device responses return via telnet to user will have >> X-Term control sequences added to highlight or colorize certain >> keywords. >> >> Hope that clarifies things a bit. I wasn't real clear last night. >> >> Bobby >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On >> Behalf Of Scott Walters >> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:27 PM >> To: Victor Odhner >> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org >> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm not in any condition to really comment on this, but being >> an old MUD player, I've seen a goodly number of telnet emulators >> written -- and MUD "front end" clients written. "telnet" has its >> own RFC describing operations (negotiate about window size, etc). >> It seems like you either want to implement the RFC with a >> front end or else you're really trying to do something more >> interesting. But I'm not clear on which case is the case. >> >> -scott >> >> On 0, Victor Odhner wrote: >> > Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: >> > >> > >During the session I want to spawn other tools ... >> > > >> > I think you are stuck with having your client process every >> > byte of input that passes through. I've done that sort of thing >> > but always at the remote end, i.e., using "system" calls to the >> > system that my agent was running on. Doing it on the remote >> > host system is what IPC::Open2 seems to be about, but I gather >> > you want to run your client program on a local PC, and have it >> > participate in a dialog with a remotely-connected host. >> > >> > You could write a client that accepts inputs from the user, and >> > if no special commands are recognized, just sends them on to >> > the telnet line. But it would scan the input line and if a special >> > command or macro were recognized, it could enter a dialog >> > either with the telnet session or with the user to execute special >> > functions. In some cases you might want two separate client >> > processes, one to send user input to the remote end, and another >> > to pass remote responses back to the user's screen. That is a >> > common design for "terminal emulator" type apps. >> > >> > One trick in this process is that you need to know when you >> > have a prompt from the remote system, so you know when you >> > can send; but some of the time you won't care because you can >> > carry on a full-duplex conversation, using two separate (but >> > cooperating) processes, and send whenever you want to. >> > >> > Something like this can't be fully general, since there will be >> > some program out there on the remote host that will produce >> > or expect a dialog that your program will manage to mess up. >> > But if you intend to control only a limited set of remote >> > operations, well, the fewer of them you want, the easier it >> > gets. For example, if you want to allow arbitrary command-line >> > operations but no screen-controlling software such as vi or >> > curses, then it can be really easy. >> > >> > This can get tricky if the remote processes are trying to control >> > the screen -- either you have to make that totally transparent, or >> > you have to understand a fair amount of what's going on so you >> > won't mess up screen positioning and cursor control but still >> > can distinguish commands that should be handled by your client. >> > >> > Operations like changing screen color, etc., if they were things >> > the remote system knew how to do, could be done by issuing >> > commands to that system and then passing back the formatted >> > results transparently; but otherwise, you could filter the stuff >> > received via telnet and superimpose your own formatting on it. >> > That's what a terminal emulator does on a PC when it's >> > presenting a terminal window combined with other objects on >> > the same screen, and maybe also watching for strings that >> > would prompt scripted responses by the client. >> > >> > Finally, if it's OK for the user to be conscious of your client >> > sitting in the middle of the dialog, then the user can use special >> > commands or keystrokes to put your client into transparent >> > mode to run something like vi, and then back into participating >> > mode to use macro commands, switch among remote systems, >> > etc. >> > >> > Good luck, >> > >> > Vic >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Phoenix-pm mailing list >> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From aj at exiledplanet.org Thu Jun 30 12:20:00 2005 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (aj@exiledplanet.org) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:20:00 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <15924723.1120159301940.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com> Aha! A possible solution emerges! Though I've forgotten what coroutines are. :-( --aj Scott Walters wrote: __________ >Ahhh... okay, this is just a fragment, but it sounds like you're having the >standard problem of needing to monitor multiple IO handles -- in this case, at >least one user and one program launched for the user by the daemon. > >select() was designed for this, but it's painful for anything beyond trivial >applications. All operations must be atomic and must return back to the >"select loop". Hence things like POE were created. POE also has an event >loop which is little more than a select loop, but you're still restricted >to atomic operations that can't block or perform additional IO operations >in response to the one that just completed and must instead schedule them >for the future. You also don't get any variables that persist between >these atomic operations -- all of your data must be instance data or else >it's lost when you return back to the event handler. This is only marginally >better than a plain select loop. Perl's threads are unusable for any >case where the threads must share data or else they'd get the recommendation, >but for applications like this, I strongly advocate the Coro module. In >fact, there are two chapters on it in _Perl 6 Now_ [blatent self-plug >alert]. > >Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd >still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular >file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows >how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. > >The structure would be something like this: a listener loop accepts connections >and creates a coroutine (the command prompt) for each connection accepted. The >command prompt accepts commands (obviously) and creates coroutines for each >command that doesn't complete instantly. These command coroutines use >IPC::Open2 or IPC::Open3 to open bi-directional or tri-directional pipes to >whichever system command is to be run (use the syntax that avoids invoking the >shell!). The command coroutines, after setting up the pipe, perform filtering >on the data, applying any coloring or highlighting. If a -more- prompt is >needed, a coroutine to manage (and filter) all of the command coroutines >should be created. Coro::Channel would be used to pass text, objects, etc, >between coroutines, but ultimately, one coroutine (the command prompt) would >be reading user input and one or more (the command coroutines or the >command-coroutine-manager-coroutine) coroutines would write to the user via >their socket. > >I hope this helps. > >-scott > >On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: >> Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a >> similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate >> expect. :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM >> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS >> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org >> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor >> >> >> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: >> > [snip] >> > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out >> > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to >> > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing >> > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring >> > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. >> >> bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. >> Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture >> your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back >> anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check >> out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional >> Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is >> probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also >> find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> --aj >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 30 12:32:07 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:32:07 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor In-Reply-To: <15924723.1120159301940.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com> References: <15924723.1120159301940.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com> Message-ID: <20050630193206.GW3792@illogics.org> No, I don't think I'm offering useful suggestions for the part he's actually having problems with. Expect stuff I can't help with. Left to myself with this project, I'd write the expect logic from scratch. But I think I missed a message or two. I don't even know where Expect is going wrong controlling the other program, or even what's being controlled. -scott On 0, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: > Aha! A possible solution emerges! Though I've forgotten what coroutines are. :-( > > --aj > > Scott Walters wrote: > __________ > >Ahhh... okay, this is just a fragment, but it sounds like you're having the > >standard problem of needing to monitor multiple IO handles -- in this case, at > >least one user and one program launched for the user by the daemon. > > > >select() was designed for this, but it's painful for anything beyond trivial > >applications. All operations must be atomic and must return back to the > >"select loop". Hence things like POE were created. POE also has an event > >loop which is little more than a select loop, but you're still restricted > >to atomic operations that can't block or perform additional IO operations > >in response to the one that just completed and must instead schedule them > >for the future. You also don't get any variables that persist between > >these atomic operations -- all of your data must be instance data or else > >it's lost when you return back to the event handler. This is only marginally > >better than a plain select loop. Perl's threads are unusable for any > >case where the threads must share data or else they'd get the recommendation, > >but for applications like this, I strongly advocate the Coro module. In > >fact, there are two chapters on it in _Perl 6 Now_ [blatent self-plug > >alert]. > > > >Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd > >still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular > >file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows > >how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. > > > >The structure would be something like this: a listener loop accepts connections > >and creates a coroutine (the command prompt) for each connection accepted. The > >command prompt accepts commands (obviously) and creates coroutines for each > >command that doesn't complete instantly. These command coroutines use > >IPC::Open2 or IPC::Open3 to open bi-directional or tri-directional pipes to > >whichever system command is to be run (use the syntax that avoids invoking the > >shell!). The command coroutines, after setting up the pipe, perform filtering > >on the data, applying any coloring or highlighting. If a -more- prompt is > >needed, a coroutine to manage (and filter) all of the command coroutines > >should be created. Coro::Channel would be used to pass text, objects, etc, > >between coroutines, but ultimately, one coroutine (the command prompt) would > >be reading user input and one or more (the command coroutines or the > >command-coroutine-manager-coroutine) coroutines would write to the user via > >their socket. > > > >I hope this helps. > > > >-scott > > > >On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > >> Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a > >> similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate > >> expect. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM > >> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > >> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > >> > [snip] > >> > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > >> > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > >> > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > >> > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > >> > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. > >> > >> bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. > >> Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture > >> your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back > >> anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check > >> out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional > >> Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is > >> probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also > >> find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> --aj > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 30 12:47:08 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:47:08 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D64AF4C@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Scott, I appreciated your insight nonetheless...made me realize how little I know Perl ;-). The Cookbook item Tom mentioned seems to meet my need so far for matching IO. I read it last night before e-mailing the group but it didn't gel. Once I get the STDOUT colorization done, I'll tackle the user input matching. Simple enough in the forked client. Fun part will be having the client spawn a second XTerm and continue to update that XTerm with output from various subroutines based on user input matches, but working against remote device output from the parent process. It's a telnet helper window or sorts. Ultimate goal is user types command (for you Cisco nerds, say "show ip accounting"). Remote device output is printed to STDOUT on parent process. Helper window shows that output processed by some other tools I've written in the past. Users normally have to collect command output to file and then manually run it tools against it. This, I hope, will allow live processing of output in the helper window based on pattern matching user commands that I have tools for. I guess step one will be just to open a second XTerm every time a user command is matched, then worry about the single window updating later. Have I confused everyone yet? Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:32 PM To: aj at exiledplanet.org Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor No, I don't think I'm offering useful suggestions for the part he's actually having problems with. Expect stuff I can't help with. Left to myself with this project, I'd write the expect logic from scratch. But I think I missed a message or two. I don't even know where Expect is going wrong controlling the other program, or even what's being controlled. -scott On 0, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: > Aha! A possible solution emerges! Though I've forgotten what coroutines are. :-( > > --aj > > Scott Walters wrote: > __________ > >Ahhh... okay, this is just a fragment, but it sounds like you're having the > >standard problem of needing to monitor multiple IO handles -- in this case, at > >least one user and one program launched for the user by the daemon. > > > >select() was designed for this, but it's painful for anything beyond trivial > >applications. All operations must be atomic and must return back to the > >"select loop". Hence things like POE were created. POE also has an event > >loop which is little more than a select loop, but you're still restricted > >to atomic operations that can't block or perform additional IO operations > >in response to the one that just completed and must instead schedule them > >for the future. You also don't get any variables that persist between > >these atomic operations -- all of your data must be instance data or else > >it's lost when you return back to the event handler. This is only marginally > >better than a plain select loop. Perl's threads are unusable for any > >case where the threads must share data or else they'd get the recommendation, > >but for applications like this, I strongly advocate the Coro module. In > >fact, there are two chapters on it in _Perl 6 Now_ [blatent self-plug > >alert]. > > > >Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd > >still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular > >file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows > >how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. > > > >The structure would be something like this: a listener loop accepts connections > >and creates a coroutine (the command prompt) for each connection accepted. The > >command prompt accepts commands (obviously) and creates coroutines for each > >command that doesn't complete instantly. These command coroutines use > >IPC::Open2 or IPC::Open3 to open bi-directional or tri-directional pipes to > >whichever system command is to be run (use the syntax that avoids invoking the > >shell!). The command coroutines, after setting up the pipe, perform filtering > >on the data, applying any coloring or highlighting. If a -more- prompt is > >needed, a coroutine to manage (and filter) all of the command coroutines > >should be created. Coro::Channel would be used to pass text, objects, etc, > >between coroutines, but ultimately, one coroutine (the command prompt) would > >be reading user input and one or more (the command coroutines or the > >command-coroutine-manager-coroutine) coroutines would write to the user via > >their socket. > > > >I hope this helps. > > > >-scott > > > >On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > >> Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a > >> similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate > >> expect. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM > >> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > >> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > >> > [snip] > >> > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > >> > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > >> > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > >> > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > >> > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. > >> > >> bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. > >> Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture > >> your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back > >> anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check > >> out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional > >> Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is > >> probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also > >> find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> --aj > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 30 12:53:25 2005 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:25 -0500 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Message-ID: <91EAC66F6B233644BCE69C40B97035790D64AF79@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> First, appreciate everyone jumping on this. I never expected so much feedback. Second, I was a bit too quick on my last e-mail. Just thought the single helper window should be simple enough. Have the parent proc spawn the XTerm then figure out the PTY device and open it as a filehandle. Instead of worry about interproc message passing for child to tell parent what command user typed, I'll just begin by pattern matching on the output since that's what my older scripts do anyway. Especially seeing how Cisco devices allow just shortened command notation. I really wasn't looking forward to the multi-word, longest match scenario. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Metz, Bobby W, WCS Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:47 PM To: Scott Walters; aj at exiledplanet.org Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor Scott, I appreciated your insight nonetheless...made me realize how little I know Perl ;-). The Cookbook item Tom mentioned seems to meet my need so far for matching IO. I read it last night before e-mailing the group but it didn't gel. Once I get the STDOUT colorization done, I'll tackle the user input matching. Simple enough in the forked client. Fun part will be having the client spawn a second XTerm and continue to update that XTerm with output from various subroutines based on user input matches, but working against remote device output from the parent process. It's a telnet helper window or sorts. Ultimate goal is user types command (for you Cisco nerds, say "show ip accounting"). Remote device output is printed to STDOUT on parent process. Helper window shows that output processed by some other tools I've written in the past. Users normally have to collect command output to file and then manually run it tools against it. This, I hope, will allow live processing of output in the helper window based on pattern matching user commands that I have tools for. I guess step one will be just to open a second XTerm every time a user command is matched, then worry about the single window updating later. Have I confused everyone yet? Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:32 PM To: aj at exiledplanet.org Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor No, I don't think I'm offering useful suggestions for the part he's actually having problems with. Expect stuff I can't help with. Left to myself with this project, I'd write the expect logic from scratch. But I think I missed a message or two. I don't even know where Expect is going wrong controlling the other program, or even what's being controlled. -scott On 0, aj at exiledplanet.org wrote: > Aha! A possible solution emerges! Though I've forgotten what coroutines are. :-( > > --aj > > Scott Walters wrote: > __________ > >Ahhh... okay, this is just a fragment, but it sounds like you're having the > >standard problem of needing to monitor multiple IO handles -- in this case, at > >least one user and one program launched for the user by the daemon. > > > >select() was designed for this, but it's painful for anything beyond trivial > >applications. All operations must be atomic and must return back to the > >"select loop". Hence things like POE were created. POE also has an event > >loop which is little more than a select loop, but you're still restricted > >to atomic operations that can't block or perform additional IO operations > >in response to the one that just completed and must instead schedule them > >for the future. You also don't get any variables that persist between > >these atomic operations -- all of your data must be instance data or else > >it's lost when you return back to the event handler. This is only marginally > >better than a plain select loop. Perl's threads are unusable for any > >case where the threads must share data or else they'd get the recommendation, > >but for applications like this, I strongly advocate the Coro module. In > >fact, there are two chapters on it in _Perl 6 Now_ [blatent self-plug > >alert]. > > > >Used like this, Coro provides essentially cooperative multithreading. You'd > >still need IPC::Open2/IPC::Open3. Coro has a method to convert regular > >file handles, such as those returned by IPC::Open2, into something that knows > >how to cede the CPU rather than block on data. > > > >The structure would be something like this: a listener loop accepts connections > >and creates a coroutine (the command prompt) for each connection accepted. The > >command prompt accepts commands (obviously) and creates coroutines for each > >command that doesn't complete instantly. These command coroutines use > >IPC::Open2 or IPC::Open3 to open bi-directional or tri-directional pipes to > >whichever system command is to be run (use the syntax that avoids invoking the > >shell!). The command coroutines, after setting up the pipe, perform filtering > >on the data, applying any coloring or highlighting. If a -more- prompt is > >needed, a coroutine to manage (and filter) all of the command coroutines > >should be created. Coro::Channel would be used to pass text, objects, etc, > >between coroutines, but ultimately, one coroutine (the command prompt) would > >be reading user input and one or more (the command coroutines or the > >command-coroutine-manager-coroutine) coroutines would write to the user via > >their socket. > > > >I hope this helps. > > > >-scott > > > >On 0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" wrote: > >> Yeh, I was looking at the buffer stuff last night. Believe expect has a > >> similar "problem"...that's why I canned that script...plus I hate > >> expect. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:34 PM > >> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS > >> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Looking for ideas - Perl Telnet Monitor > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:54 -0500, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote: > >> > [snip] > >> > IO, i.e. it looks like regular send/expect stuff to me. Anyone out > >> > there ever do anything like this or know of some easy Perl trick to > >> > monitor bi-dir IO on a TTY or Net:Telnet session without completing > >> > taking control from the user typing. I'm sure the solution is staring > >> > me in the face, but right now it eludes me. > >> > >> bidirectional IO that _doesn't_ take control from the user typing. > >> Well, no. But you might try IPC::Open2 (I suppose you could capture > >> your prog's STDIN and feed it to the telnet process, and pass back > >> anything that is read from the telnet process's stdout handle). Check > >> out Chapter 16 (Interprocess Communcation), section 3.3 (Bidirectional > >> Communication) of /Programming Perl/. Since standard I/O buffering is > >> probably going to "ruin your day" (the Camel's quote), you might also > >> find IO::Select and the IO::Pty (avail on CPAN) module useful. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> --aj > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From jksmith at lexsolutio.com Thu Jun 30 16:37:26 2005 From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:37:26 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie Message-ID: Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm had meetings and if so when and where they are located. Also I can't seem to log onto the site. Jonathan Smith Encore Lex Solutio www.lexsolutio.com 1-888-389-1658 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/phoenix-pm/attachments/20050630/500b6d1e/attachment.html From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Thu Jun 30 16:54:34 2005 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ab69bf111cede8c048dd31f3d7ef7be@highwire.stanford.edu> There's one tonight! The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in Scottsdale. (That's Shea & 101, more or less. Use the Google, young Skywalker.) The website is having some "issues" right now, but it should be up again soon. Why don't you come join us tonight, meet the crowd, and have some pizza? -- Mike (since I don't know how often Scott or Brock check mail) On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote: > Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm > had meetings and if so when and where they are located.? Also I can't > seem to log onto the site. > ? > ? > Jonathan Smith > Encore Lex Solutio > www.lexsolutio.com > 1-888-389-1658 > ?_______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 30 17:10:09 2005 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:10:09 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050701001009.GA3792@illogics.org> Hi Jonathan, Yeah, YAS moved the site to a server that doesn't have CGI and I need to go move it back to ap rivate server so it'll work again. Long story. Re: meetings, as lucky would have it, we're having one *today* at Nello's in Scottsdale (the north Scottsdale one, not the new old-town Scottsdale one). That's at 7:pm (though hungry programmers will probably show up early for social and food -- I'm starting to get hungry already). It's in the strip mall in the north-west corner of the 101 and Shea interchange. There are two entrance to the mall. Just go in and head for the west side and you can't miss it. The list is the only way to learn of new meetings (that's not exactly true, but close enough). Messages go out with the meeting date in the subject line for those who like to ignore most of the traffic. This one might be kind of short notice for you, but hopefully the next one will be no problem. By the way, we're moving meetings around town to try to accomodate everyone. Cheers, -scott On 0, "Jonathan K. Smith" wrote: > > Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm > had meetings and if so when and where they are located. Also I can't > seem to log onto the site. > > > > > > Jonathan Smith > > Encore Lex Solutio > > [1]www.lexsolutio.com > > 1-888-389-1658 > > References > > 1. http://www.lexsolutio.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org Thu Jun 30 17:16:10 2005 From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:16:10 -0700 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie In-Reply-To: <9ab69bf111cede8c048dd31f3d7ef7be@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <9ab69bf111cede8c048dd31f3d7ef7be@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20050701001609.GN20199@thelackthereof.org> Woot! See you all there :) --Brock On 2005.06.30.16.54, Michael Friedman wrote: | There's one tonight! | | The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in | Scottsdale. | (That's Shea & 101, more or less. Use the Google, young Skywalker.) | | The website is having some "issues" right now, but it should be up | again soon. | Why don't you come join us tonight, meet the crowd, and have some pizza? | | -- Mike | (since I don't know how often Scott or Brock check mail) | | | On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote: | | > Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm | > had meetings and if so when and where they are located.? Also I can't | > seem to log onto the site. | > ? | > ? | > Jonathan Smith | > Encore Lex Solutio | > www.lexsolutio.com | > 1-888-389-1658 | > ?_______________________________________________ | > Phoenix-pm mailing list | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest | Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona | FAX: 270-721-8034 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | | _______________________________________________ | Phoenix-pm mailing list | Phoenix-pm at pm.org | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm