Software Developer Needed

Bill Nash billn at
Fri Oct 31 11:41:16 CST 2003

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote:

> Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =)
> Tony

Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings.

You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to
keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general.

- billn

> Scott Walters wrote:
> >billn,
> >
> >Good advice.
> >
> >My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under
> >the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways,
> >including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this
> >experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they
> >were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an
> >interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition
> >with them. The job was offered because because of the experience
> >I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided
> >by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from
> >things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves
> >in competition with my work.
> >
> >My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries
> >and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client
> >needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic
> >design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that
> >the project would ever meet.
> >
> >I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts
> >are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me
> >draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots
> >of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your
> >clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill
> >people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have
> >no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers
> >are so universally threatening to established development (as free
> >software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear
> >bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe.
> >
> >I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released
> >things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the
> >problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it.
> >
> >For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software
> >programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is
> >good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable
> >to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally
> >available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers
> >are suspicious of people who are still in school.
> >
> >I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is
> >for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is
> >established that free software development can be done while playing by the
> >same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope),
> >and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the
> >commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software
> >developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably
> >honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because
> >dishonesty doesn't pay).
> >
> >-scott
> >
> >
> >On  0, Bill Nash <billn at> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail at wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>><my 2 cents>
> >>>
> >>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have
> >>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me
> >>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that
> >>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it.
> >>>
> >>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place.
> >>>
> >>></my 2 cents>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all
> >>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with
> >>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't.
> >>
> >>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get
> >>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I
> >>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be
> >>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been
> >>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see
> >>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want
> >>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella.
> >>
> >>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep
> >>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please
> >>consult yours.):
> >>
> >>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in
> >>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary)
> >>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign
> >>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting /
> >>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview
> >>process.
> >>
> >>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet.
> >>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and
> >>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for
> >>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the
> >>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work
> >>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock.
> >>
> >>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open
> >>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless
> >>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing
> >>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt
> >>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset
> >>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by
> >>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would
> >>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's
> >>entirely possible it could be kosher.
> >>
> >>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself.
> >>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to
> >>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions
> >>to employment will often save you.
> >>
> >>- billn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt -
> >>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted
> >>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property,
> >>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because
> >>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this,
> >>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I
> >>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement,
> >>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released.
> >>>>
> >>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts
> >>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut,
> >>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like
> >>>>being "owned".
> >>>>
> >>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well
> >>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the
> >>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on
> >>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone
> >>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side.
> >>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry
> >>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts
> >>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay
> >>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for)
> >>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including
> >>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself
> >>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at.
> >>>>
> >>>>2 cents and that.
> >>>>
> >>>>Cheers,
> >>>>-scott
> >>>>
> >>>>On  0, Jacob Powers <jpowers at> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D
> >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> >>>>>	charset="us-ascii"
> >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Software Developer
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking
> >>>>>for a Software Developer.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification
> >>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team
> >>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal
> >>>>>and external clients.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>Requirements:
> >>>>>*	Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices.
> >>>>>*	Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills.
> >>>>>*	Object oriented PERL knowledge.
> >>>>>*	Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor.
> >>>>>*	Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code.
> >>>>>*	Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>Following Skills a Plus:
> >>>>>*	Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge.
> >>>>>*	Apache experience.
> >>>>>*	MySQL experience.
> >>>>>*	Database design.
> >>>>>*	Shell scripting.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual
> >>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume,
> >>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers at
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>For more information please see our website or email us
> >>>>>at the above address.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>Jacob Powers
> >>>>>Project Manager
> >>>>>
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >

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