Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed

[intertwingled]

That does it.  I'm starting my own Tempe Perlmongers.  And billn is not 
invited!!  =P

Tony

Scott Walters wrote:

>Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? 
>
>I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony
>for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom
>attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out.
>Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't
>know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things.
>
>-scott
>
>
>On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =)
>>>
>>>Tony
>>>      
>>>
>>Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings.
>>
>>You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to
>>keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general.
>>
>>- billn
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Scott Walters wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>billn,
>>>>
>>>>Good advice.
>>>>
>>>>My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under
>>>>the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways,
>>>>including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this
>>>>experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they
>>>>were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an
>>>>interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition
>>>>with them. The job was offered because because of the experience
>>>>I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided
>>>>by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from
>>>>things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves
>>>>in competition with my work.
>>>>
>>>>My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries
>>>>and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client
>>>>needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic
>>>>design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that
>>>>the project would ever meet.
>>>>
>>>>I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts
>>>>are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me
>>>>draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots
>>>>of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your
>>>>clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill
>>>>people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have
>>>>no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers
>>>>are so universally threatening to established development (as free
>>>>software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear
>>>>bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe.
>>>>
>>>>I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released
>>>>things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the
>>>>problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it.
>>>>
>>>>For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software
>>>>programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is
>>>>good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable
>>>>to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally
>>>>available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers
>>>>are suspicious of people who are still in school.
>>>>
>>>>I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is
>>>>for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is
>>>>established that free software development can be done while playing by the
>>>>same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope),
>>>>and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the
>>>>commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software
>>>>developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably
>>>>honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because
>>>>dishonesty doesn't pay).
>>>>
>>>>-scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail at cox.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>><my 2 cents>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have
>>>>>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me
>>>>>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that
>>>>>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>></my 2 cents>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all
>>>>>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with
>>>>>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get
>>>>>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I
>>>>>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be
>>>>>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been
>>>>>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see
>>>>>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want
>>>>>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella.
>>>>>
>>>>>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep
>>>>>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please
>>>>>consult yours.):
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in
>>>>>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary)
>>>>>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign
>>>>>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting /
>>>>>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview
>>>>>process.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet.
>>>>>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and
>>>>>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for
>>>>>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the
>>>>>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work
>>>>>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open
>>>>>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless
>>>>>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing
>>>>>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt
>>>>>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset
>>>>>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by
>>>>>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would
>>>>>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's
>>>>>entirely possible it could be kosher.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself.
>>>>>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to
>>>>>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions
>>>>>to employment will often save you.
>>>>>
>>>>>- billn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt -
>>>>>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted
>>>>>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property,
>>>>>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because
>>>>>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this,
>>>>>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I
>>>>>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement,
>>>>>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts
>>>>>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut,
>>>>>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like
>>>>>>>being "owned".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well
>>>>>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the
>>>>>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on
>>>>>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone
>>>>>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side.
>>>>>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry
>>>>>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts
>>>>>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay
>>>>>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for)
>>>>>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including
>>>>>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself
>>>>>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2 cents and that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>-scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On  0, Jacob Powers <jpowers at ccbill.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D
>>>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>>>>>>>	charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Software Developer
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking
>>>>>>>>for a Software Developer.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification
>>>>>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team
>>>>>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal
>>>>>>>>and external clients.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Requirements:
>>>>>>>>*	Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices.
>>>>>>>>*	Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills.
>>>>>>>>*	Object oriented PERL knowledge.
>>>>>>>>*	Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor.
>>>>>>>>*	Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code.
>>>>>>>>*	Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Following Skills a Plus:
>>>>>>>>*	Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge.
>>>>>>>>*	Apache experience.
>>>>>>>>*	MySQL experience.
>>>>>>>>*	Database design.
>>>>>>>>*	Shell scripting.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual
>>>>>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume,
>>>>>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers at ccbill.com=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us
>>>>>>>>at the above address.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Jacob Powers
>>>>>>>>Project Manager
>>>>>>>>CCBill.com
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>  
>