From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Mar 6 16:07:44 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/14/2002 Message-ID: <3C869330.8080609@bpxinternet.com> Please note that this is not tomorrow! I've been sick this week, so I think we'll do the second and fourth Thursdays this month. Sorry for the inconvenience. We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday March 14th at 7:00PM. It will be held at The Willow House, which is located at 149 W. McDowell Rd., which is just West of Bowne on McDowell. This is a social meeting, so just show up, hang out, and have fun. The Willow House has coffee, and sandwiches, so bring some money if you are hungry. If you want more information, visit http://www.willowhouse.com/. See you there! -- For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3. From phaedrus at illogics.org Wed Mar 6 17:07:15 2002 From: phaedrus at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Job Hunting Saga Message-ID: This is ment to amuse. I'm lucky enough to have a first-page ranking on Google for search phrases as "computer programmer resume". Hungry for job leads, I hobbled together a quick script (thanks to Bill & O'Reilly for the regex) to parse my Apache access_log for Google search referals under the logic that a lot of people looking for resumes would search google while at work, and then click on mine, and I would get their domain name to follow up. The script is at the end for anyone interested. It's partially commented out - one behavior was just to dump a count of words that I got hits on. Right now, it only prints out instances from the log of searchhits from google for "resume" + other words. What I came up with surprised me: 1. Almost all of the hits are from dialups/dynip DNS/cable, and .edu's. 2. Of the real companies, most hits were from former employers (3). 3. "websensecache.tco.census.gov wants resume computer programmer" was one of the log entries. 4. About 5/100 appear to be valid hits from inside companies. 5. In the last 6 months, first page Google ranking has generated 0 non-spam emails. For the curious, the output is at http://www.illogics.org/google.html. #!/usr/bin/perl use CGI; use Socket; $ident = 'http://www.google.com/search?q='; open $f, '<', 'access_log' or die; WEBHIT: while(<$f>) { ($host, $ident_user, $auth_user, $date, $time, $time_zone, $method, $url, $protocol, $status, $bytes, $referer, $agent) = /^(\S+) (\S+) (\S+) \[([^:]+):(\d+:\d+:\d+) ([^\]]+)\] "(\S+) (.+?) (\S+)" (\S+) (\S+) "([^"]+)" "([^"]+)"$/; next WEBHIT unless(substr($referer, 0, length($ident)) eq $ident); $qs = substr($referer, length($ident)); $qs =~ s/&.*//; $qs = CGI::unescape($qs); $qs =~ s/[^ a-zA-Z0-9]//g; foreach my $i (split / /, lc($qs)) { $words{$i}++; } if($qs =~ m/resume/) { $host = gethostbyaddr(scalar inet_aton($host), AF_INET) or next WEBHIT; print qq{$hostwants$qs\n}; } } close $f; exit 0; foreach my $i (keys %words) { push @words, sprintf "%8d %s", $words{$i}, $i if $words{$i} > 1; } @words = sort @words; foreach my $i (@words) { print $i, "\n"; } From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Mar 7 11:21:37 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Job Hunting Saga References: Message-ID: <3C87A1A1.2050601@bpxinternet.com> Scott Walters wrote: > This is ment to amuse. > > I'm lucky enough to have a first-page ranking on Google for > search phrases as "computer programmer resume". Hungry for job leads, > I hobbled together a quick script (thanks to Bill & O'Reilly for > the regex) to parse my Apache access_log for Google search referals > under the logic that a lot of people looking for resumes would > search google while at work, and then click on mine, and I would get > their domain name to follow up. The script is at the end for anyone > interested. It's partially commented out - one behavior was just to > dump a count of words that I got hits on. Right now, it only prints > out instances from the log of searchhits from google for "resume" + > other words. This is pretty interesting. > What I came up with surprised me: > > 1. Almost all of the hits are from dialups/dynip DNS/cable, and .edu's. > 2. Of the real companies, most hits were from former employers (3). This is amusing! > 3. "websensecache.tco.census.gov wants resume computer programmer" was one > of the log entries. > 4. About 5/100 appear to be valid hits from inside companies. > 5. In the last 6 months, first page Google ranking has generated 0 non-spam > emails. > > For the curious, the output is at http://www.illogics.org/google.html. > > #!/usr/bin/perl > > use CGI; > use Socket; > > $ident = 'http://www.google.com/search?q='; > > open $f, '<', 'access_log' or die; > WEBHIT: while(<$f>) { > > ($host, $ident_user, $auth_user, $date, $time, > $time_zone, $method, $url, $protocol, $status, $bytes, > $referer, $agent) = > /^(\S+) (\S+) (\S+) \[([^:]+):(\d+:\d+:\d+) ([^\]]+)\] "(\S+) (.+?) (\S+)" (\S+) (\S+) "([^"]+)" "([^"]+)"$/; > > next WEBHIT unless(substr($referer, 0, length($ident)) eq $ident); > $qs = substr($referer, length($ident)); > $qs =~ s/&.*//; > $qs = CGI::unescape($qs); > $qs =~ s/[^ a-zA-Z0-9]//g; > foreach my $i (split / /, lc($qs)) { > $words{$i}++; > } > if($qs =~ m/resume/) { > $host = gethostbyaddr(scalar inet_aton($host), AF_INET) or next WEBHIT; > print qq{$hostwants$qs\n}; > } > } > close $f; > > exit 0; > > foreach my $i (keys %words) { > push @words, sprintf "%8d %s", $words{$i}, $i if $words{$i} > 1; > } > @words = sort @words; > > foreach my $i (@words) { > print $i, "\n"; > } > > > > > From mdearman at inficad.com Sun Mar 10 20:22:33 2002 From: mdearman at inficad.com (Michael Dearman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: I need an attorney / Restrictive Aggreements! Message-ID: <3C8C14E9.F3215ECD@inficad.com> Hi folks, Sorry I haven't been very sociable in quite a while. But I'd greatly appreciate any help on this. Could someone direct me to a local attorney who deals with Corporate Contracts and would be familiar with the issues that would be involved with a web hosting service's restrictive agreement, operating as an LLC, and using OpenSource code. Any links to pertinent info would also be very helpful. Thanks, M. Dearman From tran_fors at yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 13:13:22 2002 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: I need an attorney / Restrictive Aggreements! In-Reply-To: <3C8C14E9.F3215ECD@inficad.com> Message-ID: <20020311191322.28368.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com> Hmm.. you might try asking on AZIPA (AZ Internet Professionals); here's a link: http://www.azipa.org/mail.html Good luck, -Kurt --- Michael Dearman wrote: > Hi folks, > Sorry I haven't been very sociable in quite a while. > But I'd greatly > appreciate any help on this. > > Could someone direct me to a local attorney who > deals with Corporate > Contracts and would be familiar with the issues that > would be involved > with a web hosting service's restrictive agreement, > operating as an > LLC, and using OpenSource code. > > Any links to pertinent info would also be very > helpful. > > Thanks, > M. Dearman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From mdearman at inficad.com Mon Mar 11 14:01:46 2002 From: mdearman at inficad.com (Michael Dearman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: I need an attorney / Restrictive Aggreements! References: <20020311191322.28368.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C8D0D2A.AB59CCBB@inficad.com> Tran Forsythe wrote: > > Hmm.. you might try asking on AZIPA (AZ Internet > Professionals); here's a link: > http://www.azipa.org/mail.html > Yea! Forgot about those guys! Thanks Kurt, MD > Good luck, > -Kurt > From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Fri Mar 15 15:01:10 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night Message-ID: <3C926116.9000703@bpxinternet.com> I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. Sorry, email technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that most people forgot about the meeting. Oh well. About the next meeting... If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, please let me know if you can present on the 28th. You know who you are... :) From Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM Fri Mar 15 15:56:49 2002 From: Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM (Bryan Lane) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night Message-ID: <219B26AF200FD411A11200805FE6EF2508CD3A74@tef00021.vitalps.com> I thought it was fun last night, but it was much quieter than normal.... -----Original Message----- From: doug.miles@bpxinternet.com [mailto:doug.miles@bpxinternet.com] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 2:01 PM To: Phoenix.pm Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. Sorry, email technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that most people forgot about the meeting. Oh well. About the next meeting... If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, please let me know if you can present on the 28th. You know who you are... :) From tran_fors at yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 19:54:33 2002 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <3C926116.9000703@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <20020316015433.29585.qmail@web14106.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry, Doug, I'm behind a deadline and working all sorts of hrs to meet it (heck, I'm at work as I write this now, and I usually take off at 5). It had absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be there, _trust_ me ;) -Kurt --- Doug Miles wrote: > I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. > Sorry, email > technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that > most people forgot > about the meeting. Oh well. > > About the next meeting... > > If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, > please let me know > if you can present on the 28th. You know who you > are... :) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Mon Mar 18 10:58:15 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night References: <20020316015433.29585.qmail@web14106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C961CA7.7010102@bpxinternet.com> Tran Forsythe wrote: > Sorry, Doug, I'm behind a deadline and working all > sorts of hrs to meet it (heck, I'm at work as I write > this now, and I usually take off at 5). It had > absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be there, > _trust_ me ;) You have *my* condolences, but I don't know about the unemployed guys. ;) > -Kurt > > --- Doug Miles wrote: > >>I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. >>Sorry, email >>technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that >>most people forgot >>about the meeting. Oh well. >> >>About the next meeting... >> >>If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, >>please let me know >>if you can present on the 28th. You know who you >>are... :) >> > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > From scott at imsa.edu Mon Mar 18 11:17:09 2002 From: scott at imsa.edu (scott@imsa.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: from "Doug Miles" at Mar 18, 2002 09:58:15 AM Message-ID: <200203181717.g2IHH9L23568@pollux.imsa.edu> > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know about the unemployed guys. ;) Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were trying to find jobs.... Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu "will hack for food" From lajandy at yahoo.com Mon Mar 18 16:13:28 2002 From: lajandy at yahoo.com (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <200203181717.g2IHH9L23568@pollux.imsa.edu> Message-ID: <20020318221328.71021.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know about the unemployed > guys. ;) > > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were trying to find > jobs.... > > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu > "will hack for food" Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was also still in the process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold off all their furniture and most other physical assets last week. (One guy brought a 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From John.Bennett at schwab.com Mon Mar 18 16:36:09 2002 From: John.Bennett at schwab.com (Bennett, John) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:40 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night Message-ID: <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA88814FCF5A0@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> OUCH! -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:lajandy@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:13 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know about the unemployed > guys. ;) > > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were trying to find > jobs.... > > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu > "will hack for food" Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was also still in the process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold off all their furniture and most other physical assets last week. (One guy brought a 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From tran_fors at yahoo.com Mon Mar 18 16:49:22 2002 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <20020318221328.71021.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020318224922.99510.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Andrew Johnson wrote: > > --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: > > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know > about the unemployed > > guys. ;) > > > > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were > trying to find > > jobs.... > > > > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu > > "will hack for food" > > Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was > also still in the > process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold > off all their > furniture and most other physical assets last week. > (One guy brought a > 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) You guys might wanna check out DHL.com ... apparently they're opening a datacenter here in Phoenix, and they have a rather obscene number of jobs listed on their site. -Kurt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From John.Bennett at schwab.com Mon Mar 18 17:51:18 2002 From: John.Bennett at schwab.com (Bennett, John) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night Message-ID: <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA88814FCF5A6@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> Confirm from the "friends in low places network". The data center in PHX is "moveing/growing". Source is pal of mine at work that has a pal at DHL... 2 cents. JB -----Original Message----- From: Tran Forsythe [mailto:tran_fors@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:49 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night --- Andrew Johnson wrote: > > --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: > > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know > about the unemployed > > guys. ;) > > > > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were > trying to find > > jobs.... > > > > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu > > "will hack for food" > > Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was > also still in the > process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold > off all their > furniture and most other physical assets last week. > (One guy brought a > 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) You guys might wanna check out DHL.com ... apparently they're opening a datacenter here in Phoenix, and they have a rather obscene number of jobs listed on their site. -Kurt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From brooksj at wildhorse.com Mon Mar 18 20:32:35 2002 From: brooksj at wildhorse.com (Desert Hawk) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:51:18 MST." <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA88814FCF5A6@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> Message-ID: <200203190229.g2J2TnwA004356@ns1.wildhorse.com> Yeah, I can confirm that they need the help because about 90% of their tech staff from SF isn't relocating here, and they still went and laid off a buncha people from the facility here, myself included (a Unix admin with over 15 years experience who came out here a year ago to take a DHL job only to get punted less than a year in). The hint I told a headhunter friend of mine here was that unless the person was strong HP first and anything else second, don't bother... a Sun/open source person is not going to fit in anymore. There was horrendously bad timing and bad judgement in all aspects of my going to work there. Let's just say that the manager who pushed to hire me was no longer a manager 6 months after I got there, which really added some spice to my situation... It's a long ugly story, and I'm just glad I was able to find something else before the end date they assigned me. Sad part is some of the people there are good people, but because of other situations which I'm not going to go into here, I'm willing to bet that once an upturn in the economy translates to a few more job openings in the Valley, most of the incumbent admins will run for the hills, leaving the new ones to founder with trying to figure it all out. My new job actually allows me a little bit more breathing room, so I may actually get to show up to meetings again. DHL details could be provided upon personal request ;) jo >Confirm from the "friends in low places network". The data center in PHX is >"moveing/growing". Source is pal of mine at work that has a pal at DHL... >2 cents. JB > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tran Forsythe [mailto:tran_fors@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:49 PM >To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night > > > >--- Andrew Johnson wrote: >> >> --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: >> > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know >> about the unemployed >> > guys. ;) >> > >> > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were >> trying to find >> > jobs.... >> > >> > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu >> > "will hack for food" >> >> Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was >> also still in the >> process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold >> off all their >> furniture and most other physical assets last week. >> (One guy brought a >> 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) > >You guys might wanna check out DHL.com ... apparently >they're opening a datacenter here in Phoenix, and they >have a rather obscene number of jobs listed on their >site. > >-Kurt > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ From macnaughtan at hotmail.com Tue Mar 19 10:21:22 2002 From: macnaughtan at hotmail.com (Heather Macnaughtan) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: jobs Message-ID: I worked at DHL's call center in Tempe for about 18 months and found it similarly "disorganized." I changed managers five times. I was hoping they'd improved since then. Still, a job's a job. Good luck to all. -H. > > >Yeah, I can confirm that they need the help because about 90% of their >tech staff from SF isn't relocating here, and they still went and laid >off a buncha people from the facility here, myself included (a Unix >admin with over 15 years experience who came out here a year ago to take >a DHL job only to get punted less than a year in). > >The hint I told a headhunter friend of mine here was that unless the >person was strong HP first and anything else second, don't bother... >a Sun/open source person is not going to fit in anymore. There was >horrendously bad timing and bad judgement in all aspects of my going >to work there. Let's just say that the manager who pushed to hire me >was no longer a manager 6 months after I got there, which really added >some spice to my situation... > >It's a long ugly story, and I'm just glad I was able to find something >else before the end date they assigned me. > >Sad part is some of the people there are good people, but because of >other situations which I'm not going to go into here, I'm willing to bet >that once an upturn in the economy translates to a few more job openings >in the Valley, most of the incumbent admins will run for the hills, >leaving the new ones to founder with trying to figure it all out. > >My new job actually allows me a little bit more breathing room, so I may >actually get to show up to meetings again. DHL details could be provided >upon personal request ;) > > >jo > > >Confirm from the "friends in low places network". The data center in PHX >is > >"moveing/growing". Source is pal of mine at work that has a pal at DHL... > >2 cents. JB > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Tran Forsythe [mailto:tran_fors@yahoo.com] > >Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:49 PM > >To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night > > > > > > > >--- Andrew Johnson wrote: > >> > >> --- scott@imsa.edu wrote: > >> > > You have *my* condolences, but I don't know > >> about the unemployed > >> > guys. ;) > >> > > >> > Heck, we didn't make the meetings because we were > >> trying to find > >> > jobs.... > >> > > >> > Scott Swanson / scott@imsa.edu > >> > "will hack for food" > >> > >> Actually, in addition to searching for a job, I was > >> also still in the > >> process of cleaning out my former employer, who sold > >> off all their > >> furniture and most other physical assets last week. > >> (One guy brought a > >> 19 ft. U-Haul truck.) > > > >You guys might wanna check out DHL.com ... apparently > >they're opening a datacenter here in Phoenix, and they > >have a rather obscene number of jobs listed on their > >site. > > > >-Kurt > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > >http://sports.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From sharding at ccbill.com Tue Mar 19 11:03:11 2002 From: sharding at ccbill.com (Shay Harding) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: jobs References: Message-ID: <027101c1cf67$f3953e70$de00000a@shayl> The company(ies) I work for are looking for some more programmers. We use Perl/MySQL pretty much exclusively. CCBill (http://www.ccbill.com) is a gateway that allows online merchants to accept credit cards and ACH (checks) transactions. Vscrub (http://www.vscrub.com) processes transactions to determine risk and links up to different payment gateways to process the transactions. These two companies are owned by the same people so I basically work for both. Currently we are in the process of getting all of our systems up to spec with the new VISA regulations just passed down. In the near future (6 mo. or so) we will be redesigning (basically upgrading) our current systems. I will also say (since this matters to some people) that probably 90% of CCBill's merchants are adult websites. So if that kind of thing bothers you, it's probably not a good idea to work here. I have worked here for almost 5 years and it's actually the best place I've worked at. We currently have around 14 programmers (just hired 1 or 2 more). If interested and have specific questions, you can email me at sharding@ccbill.com. You can also send a resume if interested to the same email address. Shay Harding sharding@ccbill.com From djmilesfamily at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 17:27:36 2002 From: djmilesfamily at earthlink.net (Doug and Julie Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SSSCA Petition Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020319162418.03663190@mail.earthlink.net> If you don't know what the SSSCA is, check here: http://www.eff.org/alerts/20010921_eff_sssca_alert.html I don't know if this will make a difference, but it is quick and painless to do: http://www.petitiononline.com/SSSCA/ From Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM Tue Mar 19 18:17:33 2002 From: Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM (Bryan Lane) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SSSCA Petition Message-ID: <219B26AF200FD411A11200805FE6EF2508CD3A88@tef00021.vitalps.com> Thanks Doug! -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Julie Miles [mailto:djmilesfamily@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:28 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Phoenix.pm: SSSCA Petition If you don't know what the SSSCA is, check here: http://www.eff.org/alerts/20010921_eff_sssca_alert.html I don't know if this will make a difference, but it is quick and painless to do: http://www.petitiononline.com/SSSCA/ From djmilesfamily at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 17:34:43 2002 From: djmilesfamily at earthlink.net (Doug and Julie Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <3C926116.9000703@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020320163031.04097ec0@mail.earthlink.net> At 02:01 PM 3/15/02 -0700, you wrote: >I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. Sorry, email >technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that most people forgot about >the meeting. Oh well. > >About the next meeting... > >If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, please let me know if >you can present on the 28th. You know who you are... :) OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm pretty sure that I talked to Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do either of you have something ready? I'm working on some things, but I don't have anything ready right now. Thanks! From djmilesfamily at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 17:40:32 2002 From: djmilesfamily at earthlink.net (Doug and Julie Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020320163031.04097ec0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3C926116.9000703@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020320163944.041010a0@mail.earthlink.net> At 04:34 PM 3/20/02 -0700, you wrote: >At 02:01 PM 3/15/02 -0700, you wrote: >>I sent a reminder yesterday, but it didn't make it. Sorry, email >>technical difficulties. :( So, I'm guessing that most people forgot >>about the meeting. Oh well. >> >>About the next meeting... >> >>If I have talked to you about doing a presentation, please let me know if >>you can present on the 28th. You know who you are... :) > >OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm pretty sure that I talked to >Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do either of you have >something ready? I'm working on some things, but I don't have anything >ready right now. Thanks! Oh, yeah. I just remembered Bill and his templating system. From Mark.Pease at motorola.com Thu Mar 21 10:40:53 2002 From: Mark.Pease at motorola.com (Mark Pease) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020320163031.04097ec0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9A0D15.121C10C0@motorola.com> Doug and Julie Miles wrote: > > OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm pretty sure that I talked to > Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do either of you have > something ready? I'm working on some things, but I don't have anything > ready right now. Thanks! Not now! I'm in depression. All three of my talks for the Perl 6.0 conference were rejected! (Boo hoo...) I'll do the VIM and VIGOR talk in May, though. -- Mark Pease Mark.Pease@motorola.com Motorola DigitalDNA(tm) Laboratories perl@perl.sps.mot.com 2200 W. Broadway Rd. Phone:(480)655-6950 Mail Stop: AZ09 M350 Mesa, AZ 85202 Pager:(800)381-3304 FAX:(480)655-6192 Co-Author (with Carl Dichter) of "Software Engineering with Perl" From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Mar 21 11:30:11 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020320163031.04097ec0@mail.earthlink.net> <3C9A0D15.121C10C0@motorola.com> Message-ID: <3C9A18A3.1030705@bpxinternet.com> Mark Pease wrote: > Doug and Julie Miles wrote: > >>OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm pretty sure that I talked to >>Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do either of you have >>something ready? I'm working on some things, but I don't have anything >>ready right now. Thanks! > > > Not now! I'm in depression. All three of my talks for the Perl 6.0 > conference were rejected! (Boo hoo...) > > I'll do the VIM and VIGOR talk in May, though. Cool. We won't reject your other talks either. :) From tran_fors at yahoo.com Thu Mar 21 14:07:15 2002 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night In-Reply-To: <3C9A18A3.1030705@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <20020321200715.39290.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Miles wrote: > Mark Pease wrote: > > Doug and Julie Miles wrote: > > > >>OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm > pretty sure that I talked to > >>Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do > either of you have > >>something ready? I'm working on some things, but > I don't have anything > >>ready right now. Thanks! > > > > > > Not now! I'm in depression. All three of my talks > for the Perl 6.0 > > conference were rejected! (Boo hoo...) > > > > I'll do the VIM and VIGOR talk in May, though. > > Cool. We won't reject your other talks either. :) > Not to your face, at any rate ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From Mark.Pease at motorola.com Thu Mar 21 14:12:09 2002 From: Mark.Pease at motorola.com (Mark Pease) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night References: <20020321200715.39290.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C9A3E99.690059D7@motorola.com> Tran Forsythe wrote: > > --- Doug Miles wrote: > > Mark Pease wrote: > > > Doug and Julie Miles wrote: > > > > > >>OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm > > pretty sure that I talked to > > >>Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do > > either of you have > > >>something ready? I'm working on some things, but > > I don't have anything > > >>ready right now. Thanks! > > > > > > > > > Not now! I'm in depression. All three of my talks > > for the Perl 6.0 > > > conference were rejected! (Boo hoo...) > > > > > > I'll do the VIM and VIGOR talk in May, though. > > > > Cool. We won't reject your other talks either. :) > > > > Not to your face, at any rate ;) > Argggg!!!! Rejected twice in the same week! Good thing I don't work for the post office :-) -- Mark Pease Mark.Pease@motorola.com Motorola DigitalDNA(tm) Laboratories perl@perl.sps.mot.com 2200 W. Broadway Rd. Phone:(480)655-6950 Mail Stop: AZ09 M350 Mesa, AZ 85202 Pager:(800)381-3304 FAX:(480)655-6192 Co-Author (with Carl Dichter) of "Software Engineering with Perl" From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Mar 21 15:09:17 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting last night References: <20020321200715.39290.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com> <3C9A3E99.690059D7@motorola.com> Message-ID: <3C9A4BFD.3020904@bpxinternet.com> Mark Pease wrote: > Tran Forsythe wrote: > >>--- Doug Miles wrote: >> >>>Mark Pease wrote: >>> >>>>Doug and Julie Miles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>OK, maybe you don't know who you are. :) I'm >>>> >>>pretty sure that I talked to >>> >>>>>Mark Pease and Scott Walters. Anyone else? Do >>>> >>>either of you have >>> >>>>>something ready? I'm working on some things, but >>>> >>>I don't have anything >>> >>>>>ready right now. Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>>Not now! I'm in depression. All three of my talks >>> >>>for the Perl 6.0 >>> >>>>conference were rejected! (Boo hoo...) >>>> >>>>I'll do the VIM and VIGOR talk in May, though. >>> >>>Cool. We won't reject your other talks either. :) >>> >> >>Not to your face, at any rate ;) >> > > > Argggg!!!! Rejected twice in the same week! Good thing I don't work for > the post office :-) Harsh! There go the IQ points. :D http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/18/0548217&mode=nested From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Tue Mar 26 14:24:48 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 Message-ID: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March 28th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, and using Test::Harness. -- - Doug From Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM Tue Mar 26 14:36:24 2002 From: Bryan.Lane at VITALPS.COM (Bryan Lane) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 Message-ID: <219B26AF200FD411A11200805FE6EF2508CD3AA9@tef00021.vitalps.com> I don't think I'll be able to go this time. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: doug.miles@bpxinternet.com [mailto:doug.miles@bpxinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:25 PM To: Phoenix.pm Cc: Rose Keys Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March 28th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, and using Test::Harness. -- - Doug From syz at broken-bit.com Tue Mar 26 14:35:57 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 In-Reply-To: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> References: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <1017174957.16130.255.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> Woohoo I get to go to one! See ya there Lowell -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl : On Tue, 2002-03-26 at 13:24, Doug Miles wrote: > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March 28th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, and using Test::Harness. > > -- > - Doug > > > > > > > > > From tran_fors at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 16:06:21 2002 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 In-Reply-To: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <20020326220621.73191.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Miles wrote: > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March > 28th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 > N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and > McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the > intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl > meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the > South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed > to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, > and using Test::Harness. > > -- > - Doug There's a good chance I'll be able to make it to this one; amazing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From John.Bennett at schwab.com Tue Mar 26 16:10:20 2002 From: John.Bennett at schwab.com (Bennett, John) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 Message-ID: <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA88814FCF5ED@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> And for the 3rd time, JB will do his best! Coolness JB. -----Original Message----- From: Tran Forsythe [mailto:tran_fors@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 3:06 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 --- Doug Miles wrote: > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March > 28th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 > N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and > McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the > intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl > meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the > South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed > to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, > and using Test::Harness. > > -- > - Doug There's a good chance I'll be able to make it to this one; amazing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards? http://movies.yahoo.com/ From lajandy at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 19:19:19 2002 From: lajandy at yahoo.com (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 In-Reply-To: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <20020327011919.89751.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Miles wrote: > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March 28th at 7:00PM. I plan to attend. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From helody at jps.net Wed Mar 27 00:43:54 2002 From: helody at jps.net (James Durham) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl Message-ID: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly appreciated. James Durham From mpjbell at softhome.net Wed Mar 27 06:52:46 2002 From: mpjbell at softhome.net (Marty Bell) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 03/28/2002 In-Reply-To: <3CA0D910.30006@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020327065246.00a09f00@pop.SoftHome.net> I should be able to make it. At 01:24 PM 3/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: >We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, March 28th at 7:00PM. >It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, >which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking >lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the >receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot >that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. >Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, >which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > >I will be presenting the easy way to make modules, and using Test::Harness. > >-- >- Doug > > > > > > > > > > From erik.tank at bpxinternet.com Wed Mar 27 09:49:41 2002 From: erik.tank at bpxinternet.com (Erik Tank) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl In-Reply-To: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> References: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Message-ID: <20020327084941.54b7eced.erik.tank@bpxinternet.com> Are you looking for a class room experience or just a "directed" way to learn Perl? On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:43:54 -0700 James Durham wrote: > Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some > more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the > right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly > appreciated. > > James Durham Erik Tank Bowne of Phoenix Internet Services 602-817-4705 From syz at broken-bit.com Wed Mar 27 09:48:23 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl In-Reply-To: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> References: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Message-ID: <1017244103.19618.306.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> I have tried the class approach to learning programming and failed miserably (but that's probably just me). In a classroom they teach one specific way (which goes against much of what perl stands for), and it's often by a C/C++/java teacher that wants to make perl just an interpreted version of their language. The way learned is I went out and got learning perl and the perl cookbook and started building something. Fortunately the company I was working for was looking for something to build reports and print bills based on their 50mb/month long distance call report so I had my project and I just started at it. First I learned how to suck in a file and parse it, dump it into a mysql database.... then (by learning quite a bit of sql) grabbed the numbers I needed. Since these were customer calls, I figured out formats, templates, and other techniques to print out text reports .. then went grander and made a output qwest-ish looking bill via postscript. It took me forever to build, learning as I went, and had a couple full rewrites in there after I learned a new feature .. but I did it somehow without knowing the slighest bit about perl or programming at all. The internet is also teeming with example code. Just a skim through some programs like formmail or mojomail or sporum can be very enlightening, even if you don't fully understand what is going on. If you hit something you don't know, look it up and see what it's doing. Find a tiny regex?...take it apart to see what it does. While you may now learn the "proper" or "book" way of coding, you will definately learn the perl way of coding, and once you have that you can expand on it (going object oriented and modular, etc) Basically what I'm saying is that if you don't have something to actually do with a language, you can sit and booklearn and do little exersizes in a book or class all day long and not really learn much. Find a project you want to do, whether it's a simple CGI program or a little console application, and dive in with a couple good books at your side. (learning perl, the cookbook, and programming perl are all your friends). Lowell On Tue, 2002-03-26 at 23:43, James Durham wrote: > Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some > more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the > right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly > appreciated. > > James Durham -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl : From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com Wed Mar 27 09:53:27 2002 From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl Message-ID: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088E60C34@phxmx02.Corp.Acxiom.net> James, Perl is currently a self-taught language, with most of use building off of the C concepts that we had before (or some other language for that matter). The local community colleges offer a class in CGI, which are taught off of the Perl language (incidentally one of the southern valley instructors is a member of this list and quite good from what I understand to learn from). I learned in the traditional swim-or-sink strategy when I inherited code from some co-workers in London, I picked up several of the O'Reilly books, the best one (imho) to start with is Learning Perl. Perl is very large and flexible and at first can become very overwhelming, but the easy of speed of deploying applications makes it well worth learning. If you have specific questions, post them to this list, these guys are the best, unlike some PLUG lists that are always flaming anymore, we remember that we all started someplace and we all like challenges and to solve problems. Good luck. -Craig -----Original Message----- From: James Durham [mailto:helody@jps.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 11:44 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@pm.org Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly appreciated. James Durham ******************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From Mark.Pease at motorola.com Wed Mar 27 10:37:58 2002 From: Mark.Pease at motorola.com (Mark Pease) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl In-Reply-To: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Message-ID: On 3/26/02 11:43 PM, "James Durham" wrote: > Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some > more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the > right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly > appreciated. > > James Durham > I teach a 16 week Beginning Perl class at Chandler-Gilbert CC at the Pacos campus. This may not help you right now, because the next session will not start until next August. Mark. -- Mark Pease Mark.Pease@motorola.com Motorola DigitalDNA(tm) Laboratories perl@perl.sps.mot.com 2200 W. Broadway Rd. Phone:(480)655-6950 Mail Stop: AZ09 M350 Mesa, AZ 85202 Pager:(800)381-3304 FAX:(480)655-6192 Co-Author (with Carl Dichter) of "Software Engineering with Perl" From John.Bennett at schwab.com Wed Mar 27 10:44:24 2002 From: John.Bennett at schwab.com (Bennett, John) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl Message-ID: <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA88814FCF5F1@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> A pal of mine Jerry Pulley often said "The best way to learn is though the problem domain...". I have use this theory as a basis for mentoring people in perl. So far I have been successful, seeking a teacher are we? Drop me a direct note: john.bennett@schwab.com. Coolness JB. -----Original Message----- From: James Durham [mailto:helody@jps.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 11:44 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@pm.org Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly appreciated. James Durham From helody at jps.net Wed Mar 27 11:48:16 2002 From: helody at jps.net (James Durham) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl In-Reply-To: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> References: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Message-ID: <20020327174128.B92DE1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Thanks for all the great Replies. I will keep all the ideas in mind as I continue to learn perl. On Tuesday 26 March 2002 11:43 pm, you wrote: > Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some > more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me > the right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be > greatly appreciated. > > James Durham From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Mar 27 13:12:40 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Learning Perl References: <20020327063709.E491F1BD82@autumn.unitywave.com> Message-ID: <3CA219A8.6050506@bpxinternet.com> James Durham wrote: > Lately I have been trying to teach myself perl. Now I am looking for some > more formal classes on the subject and was hoping someone could direct me the > right way. Any ideas, suggestions or info on this subject would be greatly > appreciated. > > James Durham > If you are interested in Perl/CGI, you can try these guys: http://uaii.arizona.edu/ I'm supposed to teach the class, but they've been off to a slow start (what with the economy and all that). Also, I was just thinking about asking for people interested in me presenting perl 101 and 201. If anyone is interested, let me know, and I'll present them again. From syz at broken-bit.com Wed Mar 27 13:44:59 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl Message-ID: <1017258299.19618.396.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> I have a big stack of web applications that are just straight CGI.pm/DBI built a year or so ago .. now with site traffic peaking they're running slow as mud. Anyone have a good resource for modifying existing apps to run smoothly under mod_perl? (unfortunately there isn't a book with a camel and an indian riding it). Google has failed me on this one and I've done almost no mod_perl development except for Apache::DBI before so I don't know really where to start. -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl : From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Mar 27 14:23:31 2002 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl References: <1017258299.19618.396.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> Message-ID: <3CA22A43.8020101@bpxinternet.com> Lowell Hamilton wrote: > I have a big stack of web applications that are just straight CGI.pm/DBI > built a year or so ago .. now with site traffic peaking they're running > slow as mud. > > Anyone have a good resource for modifying existing apps to run smoothly > under mod_perl? (unfortunately there isn't a book with a camel and an > indian riding it). Google has failed me on this one and I've done > almost no mod_perl development except for Apache::DBI before so I don't > know really where to start. > There is "Writing Apache Modules with Perl and C" from O'Reilly. I don't know if it will answer your questions though. From lajandy at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 14:26:15 2002 From: lajandy at yahoo.com (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl In-Reply-To: <1017258299.19618.396.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> Message-ID: <20020327202615.82480.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lowell Hamilton wrote: > I have a big stack of web applications that are just straight > CGI.pm/DBI > built a year or so ago .. now with site traffic peaking they're > running > slow as mud. > > Anyone have a good resource for modifying existing apps to run > smoothly > under mod_perl? (unfortunately there isn't a book with a camel and > an > indian riding it). Actually, the book has an eagle on it. _Writing Apache Modules in Perl and C_ by Lincoln Stein and Doug MacEachern (aka the mod_perl book, aka the Eagle book). There's now also a mod_perl Cookbook (http://www.modperlcookbook.org), though it's not published by O'Reilly > Google has failed me on this one and I've done > almost no mod_perl development except for Apache::DBI before so I > don't > know really where to start. http://perl.apache.org is the official site, though you'd probably specifically want the Quick Guide for moving from CGI to mod_perl: http://perl.apache.org/dist/cgi_to_mod_perl.html There links to many other resources at perl.apache.org. I would also like to issue a STERN WARNING: Mod_perl is not CGI. Mod_perl provides access to the entire Apache API via Perl, and enables one to write web applications that run _inside the server itself_, not in a relatively protected separate process like CGI scripts. If you write bad code, you will crash the daemon it's running in, and you may crash the whole server. If you write sloppy code, you will have memory leaks. And although Apache::Registry will run your properly prepared CGI scripts, you will still be running those scripts inside the server, and if your code is bad, you will have a web server that runs badly. I know this sounds somewhat condescending, but I can't tell you how many times I've been told (by people that should know better) that mod_perl is unstable, and it runs so slowly, and it can't do xyz. And then I'll ask them about their setup, and find out they didn't bother to clean up the CGIs, or didn't bother to do any tuning, or used globals that "leaked" into packages where they shouldn't be, and 10,000 different other things. This always boiled down to "I just wanted it run my dirty old CGI scripts, and didn't bother to consider the consequences." You simply cannot do that with mod_perl and have good performance. Read the books, read the docs linked to on the perl.apache.org site, and use proper coding techniques, though, and you'll be golden. We now return you to your regularly scheduled lives. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From syz at broken-bit.com Wed Mar 27 16:20:50 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl In-Reply-To: <20020327202615.82480.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020327202615.82480.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1017267650.19618.450.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> > Actually, the book has an eagle on it. _Writing Apache Modules in Perl > and C_ by Lincoln Stein and Doug MacEachern (aka the mod_perl book, aka > the Eagle book). There's now also a mod_perl Cookbook > (http://www.modperlcookbook.org), though it's not published by O'Reilly > is the official site, though you'd probably specifically want the Quick > Guide for moving from CGI to mod_perl: I hadn't seen the modperl cookbook .. thanks a bunch. > http://perl.apache.org/dist/cgi_to_mod_perl.html Yeah but that's just basic stuff > I would also like to issue a STERN WARNING: Nah I'm not aiming for just a "change two lines and go" approach .. I aiming for moving a large portion of the code out to apache modules. I've just heard so many horror stories from people about it and am looking for resources for _good_ mod_perl code design (there isn't much to find outside of CPAN and apache) from the standpoint of taking an existing app and optimizing speed. 50% of it is pretty clean homebrew CGI::Application-ish style code currently running under Apache::PerlRun with Apache::DBI connection pooling on a dedicated application-only mod_perl box proxied through the static servers on the outside .. but at peaks when receiving over 50 script hits a second, the app server starts getting behind due to compilation waiting, even using the built-in intrepeter of PerlRun. I'm benchmarked the scripts down as small as they will go but still about 25% of total execution time is compilation. -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl : From lajandy at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 23:05:08 2002 From: lajandy at yahoo.com (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl In-Reply-To: <1017267650.19618.450.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> Message-ID: <20020328050508.23373.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lowell Hamilton wrote: [snip] > > > http://perl.apache.org/dist/cgi_to_mod_perl.html > Yeah but that's just basic stuff Have you also checked the mod_perl Guide? (Oh, wait, they moved it.) Here you go: http://take23.org/docs/guide/ The Guide used to be the only documentation, then Doug Mac wrote the mod_perl O'Reilly book. I haven't checked it in awhile, but it should have some valuable info in there. > > I would also like to issue a STERN WARNING: > > Yeah, sorry 'bout that; I just get a bit defensive because some people still sneer at mod_perl and its users, mostly based on their own (failed) attempts at trying to make it work. In fact, I recently had (another) argument with my former boss about mod_perl (and I don't even work for him anymore)! > Nah I'm not aiming for just a "change two lines and go" approach .. I > aiming for moving a large portion of the code out to apache modules. > I've just heard so many horror stories from people about it and am > looking for resources for _good_ mod_perl code design (there isn't > much > to find outside of CPAN and apache) from the standpoint of taking an > existing app and optimizing speed. > I think this part of the mod_perl Guide should be helpful then: http://take23.org/docs/guide/porting.xml This will make some people in the audience have stomach discomfort, but my general rule for mod_perl programming is *put everything in a module.* Use the 'use strict' pragma *at all times.* Only use package globals unless all the programs for all the sites on the server need to see a particular variable (because globals in mod_perl are just that: global to every daemon and every site being served!). An added benefit to putting all code in Perl modules (besides memory protection) is pre-compilation. Any modules used in your startup.pl file (or equivalent) are compiled at startup time into the main server process, and are shared amongst all the child processes. This saves both compilation time and memory, since you can make sure the modules you want are compiled in memory only once and stay there until the server is shutdown. > 50% of it is pretty clean homebrew CGI::Application-ish style code > currently running under Apache::PerlRun with Apache::DBI connection > pooling on a dedicated application-only mod_perl box proxied through > the > static servers on the outside .. but at peaks when receiving over 50 > script hits a second, the app server starts getting behind due to > compilation waiting, even using the built-in intrepeter of PerlRun. > I'm > benchmarked the scripts down as small as they will go but still about > 25% of total execution time is compilation. > Interesting...I never played much with Apache::PerlRun. I'd check out rewriting the code into Perl modules and pre-loading them at startup (that should at _least_ cut down on compilation time). Also try using Apache::Registry or even writing your app as full Apache modules (scripts running in Apache::Registry and Apache::PerlRun are always going to be slower and consume more memory than full Apache modules). Definitely check out the mod_perl Guide; I bet it'll have some info to help you out! ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From syz at broken-bit.com Wed Mar 27 23:30:10 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mod_perl In-Reply-To: <20020328050508.23373.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020328050508.23373.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1017293410.23770.21.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> On Wed, 2002-03-27 at 22:05, Andrew Johnson wrote: > http://take23.org/docs/guide/ Highly groovy =) Exactly what I was looking for ... I saw it before but only references to it and never the actual doc. > Yeah, sorry 'bout that; I just get a bit defensive because some people > still sneer at mod_perl and its users, mostly based on their own > (failed) attempts at trying to make it work. In fact, I recently had > (another) argument with my former boss about mod_perl (and I don't even > work for him anymore)! Hehe ..gotta love it .. From my experience so far, mod_perl is a beautiful thing, but you have to know what it's doing before you start (which is documented well), and follow the rules .. (but people should be doing that in regular code anyway if it anything more than a one liner). Mod_perl seems to be a buzzword everywhere .. "Wow this is neet tell your CTO" but when it comes to implementing it, people chicken out and go to php. > Interesting...I never played much with Apache::PerlRun. PerlRun just stuffs the perl intrepter in the apache process, so instead of launching the perl executable (expensive and memory intensive on most platforms) it uses the apache process which is already running to execute the script. It cuts the startup time to about 1/4 in a script with dbi/cgi and a bunch of other big modules in it. It compiles the script on invocation, but it executes like Apache::Registry, so the Apache::* modules work (especially connection pooling .. spawning new db connections and authenticating can chew up a good 50-100ms even to a local mysql db. and is also great for avoiding lock contention on a berkley db).. but the compiled script isn't cached and all variables are dumped between executions. > I'd check out > rewriting the code into Perl modules and pre-loading them at startup > (that should at _least_ cut down on compilation time). Also try using > Apache::Registry or even writing your app as full Apache modules > (scripts running in Apache::Registry and Apache::PerlRun are always > going to be slower and consume more memory than full Apache modules). > Definitely check out the mod_perl Guide; I bet it'll have some info to > help you out! Thanks for the help! I'm just starting to go from a cut/paste world to chopping everything into oo modules (too many projects to do in too short a timeframe so I never got to learn). -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl : From syz at broken-bit.com Thu Mar 28 03:42:09 2002 From: syz at broken-bit.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:16:41 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: re: mod_perl thanks Message-ID: <1017308529.23769.42.camel@syz.broken-bit.com> Thanks a bunch for the input all... converted a couple scripts over with great success. In reality, to make a cgi into an apache module, it's 5 lines of cut/paste and a regex to change the $q->parm('') to $param{''} (not using CGI at all), installing into site_perl and a quick edit to httpd.conf. Excellent performance as well (This is a p3 1ghz linux box using apache bench locally, 10 concurrent requests, total of 1000 requests) Straight CGI: Requests per second: 2.78 [#/sec] (mean) Apache::PerlRun: Requests per second: 9.50 [#/sec] (mean) Registry script: Requests per second: 61.40 [#/sec] (mean) Apache module: Requests per second: 80.84 [#/sec] (mean) I'll take the 5 minutes of work to get 8x the speed :> Lowell -- : Lowell Hamilton syz@b r o k e n - b i t . c o m : : Linux OpenBSD IDS/firewall Security QMail Perl :