From selenamarie at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 20:18:24 2008 From: selenamarie at gmail.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:18:24 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: West-side Open Technology Center (WOTC) Reception: Tuesday, April 8, 6pm, OTBC In-Reply-To: <47F0E477.10802@pragmaticraft.com> References: <47F0E477.10802@pragmaticraft.com> Message-ID: <2b5e566d0804012018q114fcfa5r16258efb6b3ef474@mail.gmail.com> Heads up on new open source development space! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Igal Koshevoy Date: Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:17 AM Subject: [pdxfunc] West-side Open Technology Center (WOTC) Reception: Tuesday, April 8, 6pm, OTBC I'm forwarding along some exciting news from Steve Morris at the OTBC: WOTC is a facility at the OTBC in Beaverton (http://www.opentechcenter.com/) for open source and open technology developers to use without charge (i.e., not for proprietary development). We can use it as a quiet work environment or as a meeting place. The OTBC presentation room is also available when it's not scheduled for other uses. We are having an organizing meeting for WOTC on Tuesday, April 8, 2008, at 6:00pm at OTBC. Pizza and soft drinks will be served. Please RSVP so that we will have plenty of that available. ~~~~~~~~~~~ See http://www.opentechcenter.com/drupal/?q=contact for directions to OTBC. Topics for discussion include but are not limited to: - name - attracting interest/users - measuring success - usage guidelines - access/hours/security - what do we need in the lab - TBD/other Mass transit to OTBC/WOTC: Trimet bus 67 travels from Merlo MAX Station to PCC-Rock Creek (by Cornell Oaks business park). Walk from the corner of 158th Ave./Greenbrier Parkway to OTBC (0.1 mile). We have a very beginning wiki at http://wiki.cs.pdx.edu/ootc/ . The account creation password (just to inhibit spammers) is portlandia. The mailing list is at http://wiki.cs.pdx.edu/mailman/listinfo/ootc . Thanks. Hope to see lots of you there. Bart Massey, Randy Dunlap, Steve Morris --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pdxfunc" group. To post to this group, send email to pdxfunc at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pdxfunc-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pdxfunc?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 16:49:23 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:49:23 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Im in ur database -- April meeting next week Message-ID: <200804021649.24088.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Wed. April 9th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. Speaker: Selena Deckelmann Topic: Database Procedural Languages (invisible insert) Database procedural languages are a powerful tool. You can speed up your application, save network bandwidth, and impress your developer friends. And you can write the code in a language even your cat will understand. Come learn more about how to be a database hero with PL/LOLCODE: http://pllolcode.projects.postgresql.org/ This introduction to a procedural language will be offered by Selena Deckelmann. Her most recent accomplishment was running PostgreSQL Conference East, over in Washington DC. Also, Linux Magazine published her first article about PostgreSQL 8.3 in March 2008. She's also on the board of Legion of Tech http://www.legionoftech.org, and runs PDXPUG, the local PostgreSQL users group. Other stuff about her can be found at http://www.chesnok.com/daily/ -- http://pdx.pm.org From gabrielle.roth at xo.com Thu Apr 3 06:43:50 2008 From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:43:50 -0600 Subject: [Pdx-pm] FW: UG News: OSCON "Locals Only" Discount Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Marsee Henon [mailto:marsee at oreilly.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 5:25 PM To: Roth, Gabrielle Subject: UG News: OSCON "Locals Only" Discount Hi-- Thought you might like to share the following discount with your group members. Also, let me know if you will be attending OSCON this year and if there are some special UG related activities we should know about. Here's the discount you can pass along to your members through your mailing list or at your meetings: The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is returning to Portland, Oregon. Once again we're offering a special discount to the locals-- User Group members in Oregon and Washington. With this "locals only" discount, your members get 20% off the registration price for OSCON. Use code "os08pdxug" when you register. To register, go to: O'Reilly Open Source Convention Oregon Convention Center 777 NE Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd. Portland, Oregon 97232 July 21-25, 2008 Join the OSCON Facebook Group: Or Contribute to the OSCON 2008 Wiki: Hope to see you there, Marsee ================================================================ O'Reilly 1005 Gravenstein Highway North Sebastopol, CA 95472 ================================================================ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:34:14 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:34:14 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] TodoTracker - get money for fixing TODO tests Message-ID: <200804030934.14580.ewilhelm@cpan.org> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: [pm_groups] TodoTracker - get money for fixing TODO tests Date: Wednesday 02 April 2008 13:36 Hi! It took a bit (ok, a lot) longer than planned, but Vienna.pm [0] is proud to annouce the first working prototype of the Management System for TODO Test Bounties (aka Todo Tracker) as part of the Vienna.pm Winter^WSpring of Code [1]: http://todo.useperl.at> If you're a maintainer of a Perl project and have something that needs doing head to the the Todo Tracker and enter a TODO test for your project. Vienna.pm will review all submitted Todo tests. Accepted Todos will be published so that people willing to implement the features / fix the bugs can apply to do them. Providing the project maintainers agree, the implementor gets some time to do his/her work and will hopefully come back with a result that fulfils the test stated with the project. When this is done and the project maintainers verify that their Todo is fixed, Vienna.pm pays the specified amount into the implementor's bank account. The TODO Tracker was implemented by Matt S Trout, who donated the ?1,000 earmarked for the development back into the TODO Budget for Catalyst and DBIC related projects. It is still a bit work in progress, but we want to go ahead before this turns into a Summer of Code... Vienna.pm plans to spend up to ?4,000, plus ?1,000 more for Catalyst / DBIx::Class projects. We would again like to thank all Sponsors and Attendees of YAPC::Europe 2007 [2] who made this project possible by making the YAPC such a big success. You can find more information on how this project works in our wiki [3]. If you have any questions, suggestions or bug-reports, please send them to todo-tracker at rt.useperl.at, where a friendly RT will record them. 0: http://vienna.pm.org/ 1: http://woc.useperl.at/ 2: http://vienna.yapceurope.org/ye2007/sponsors.html 3: http://socialtext.useperl.at/vienna-pm/index.cgi?todo_tracker ------------------------------------------------------- -- http://pdx.pm.org From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:35:26 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] perl training deadline Message-ID: <200804030935.27026.ewilhelm@cpan.org> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: [pm_groups] perl training deadline Date: Wednesday 02 April 2008 12:36 From: Uri Guttman the perl college is scheduled for april 28 - may 2. if you plan to participate please submit your student or sponsorship application soon. there are still a few slots open for students and sponsors as well as training seats that can be purchased. this is a week of intermediate perl classes taught by damian conway, the foremost perl trainer on the planet. it is FREE to qualified students who are looking to go from a junior developer to the intermediate level. this is meant to train you up so that you are more likely to be hired in a better perl job. see this page on how to apply for a free seat at the perl college: http://perlhunter.com/students.html if you are a company looking to hire qualified perl developers, please apply to be a sponsor of the perl college. this will gain you access to about 20 well trained developers who are actively looking to take the next step in their perl career. the placement fees for students graduating the perl college are negotiable. for information on how to be a sponsor see this page: http://perlhunter.com/sponsors.html if you are already working and would like to attend this week of perl classes, you can buy a seat for $3000. please contact me at uri AT perlhunter.com to purchase a seat or to ask me any questions. thanx, uri, dean of the perl college. -- http://pdx.pm.org From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 18:15:42 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:15:42 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Registration Is Now Open! Message-ID: <200804031815.42177.ewilhelm@cpan.org> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: Registration Is Now Open! Date: Thursday 03 April 2008 17:26 From: "O'Reilly Open Source Convention" To: ewilhelm at cpan.org O'Reilly Open Source Convention - OSCON July 21-25, 2008 Oregon Convention Center Portland, OR http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon Registration for OSCON 2008 Is Now Open. Save $250 When You Register By June 2! https://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/register/ Join us in celebrating the 10th anniversary of open source, the software freedom that has enabled developer communities and businesses to work together for the greater good of all. Open source has helped to shape a decade of innovation, collaboration, and commerce, and as we celebrate the 10th year of O'Reilly's Open Source Convention (OSCON) July 21-25 in Portland, Oregon, we are looking ahead to the next decade. What are the ideas and innovations that will next shake up the open source world? Where are the seeds that will launch us into a new era of software freedom? Through in-depth tutorials taught by experts, revelatory sessions and enlightening keynotes, OSCON 2008 will address current developments in topics such as mobile devices, tools and techniques for multicore development, caching and performance, virtualization, Linux on the desktop, cloud computing, the next generation of VoIP, open source as a global phenomenon, community antipatterns, and open source in education, government, and politics. Make sure you're a part of all this. Register now to secure your place--and save $250 (until June 2) at: https://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/register/ Forty tutorials, more than 400 sessions in 14 tracks! Monday and Tuesday's three-hour expert-led tutorials go deep into technical skills, new features and applications, and best practices. Among the hands-on topics are: ="Python in 3 Hours" -- Steve Holden (Holden Web LLC) ="Extending Rails: Understanding and Building Plugins" -- Clinton R. Nixon (Viget Labs) ="Introduction to Django" -- Jacob Kaplan-Moss (World Online) ="Perl Security" -- Paul Fenwick (Perl Training Australia) ="PHP: Architecture, Scalability and Security" -- Rasmus Lerdorf (Yahoo! Inc.) ="Ubiquitous Multithreading for a MultiCore World" -- Sanjiv Shah (Intel Corporation) ="Advanced wxPython Nuts and Bolts" -- Robin Dunn (wxPROs) Fourteen tracks, including a new Fundamentals track, give you hundreds of 45-minute sessions to choose from. Here's just a peek at what you will see and hear: ="Going Open Source: The 20 Most Important Things To Do" -- Martin Aschoff (AGINITAS AG) ="MondoRescue: The GPL Disaster Recovery Solution" -- Bruno Cornec (Hewlett-Packard) ="Shipping Rates Estimation: A Tale from IKEA" -- Chunlou Yung (IKEA Direct) ="Maria, the New Transactional Storage Engine for MySQL" -- Michael Widenius (MySQL) ="Creating and Supporting Free Software in Africa: The African Virtual Open Initiatives and Resources (AVOIR) Experience" -- Derek Keats (University of the Western Cape) ="Groovy vs. JRuby" -- Rod Cope (OpenLogic, Inc.) ="Linux on the Corporate Desktop: We Did It, and You Can, Too" -- John Goerzen (Hustler Turf Equipment) ="The Effects of Stress on Programmers' and Groups' Performances" -- Alan Carter (consultant) ="Barely Legal XXX Perl" -- Jos Boumans (RIPE NCC) ="Caching and Performance: Lessons from Facebook" -- Lucas Nealan (Facebook) ="Code Reviews for Fun and Profit" -- Alex Martelli (Google) ="Ruby 1.9: What To Expect" -- Sam Ruby (IBM) ="Even Faster Web Sites" -- Steve Souders (Google) ="Hidden Treasures of the Zope 3 Community" -- Michael Bernstein (Rogue Mountain) For the complete conference schedule, check: http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/grid OSCON has an impressive list of sponsors, including: Atlassian Software, Disney, EnterpriseDB, Google, Intel, Microsoft, OpSource, Silicon Mechanics, and Sun Microsystems. To become a sponsor, email Sharon Cordesse at: scordesse at oreilly.com In addition, OSCON will offer an Expo Hall, OSCamp, fun evening events and receptions, Birds of a Feather sessions, awards ceremonies, late night parties, activities around Portland, and plenty of networking opportunities for all. Plus, Ubuntu Live 2008 will take place July 21-22, once again co-located with OSCON at the Oregon Convention Center. For information regarding Ubuntu Live please visit: www.ubuntulive.com OSCON has been described as "ground zero for the open source alpha geek tribe" (Jon Udell, Infoworld). We hope you'll join us to see where the tribe is going next. If you have ideas for speakers and topics that will make the convention a must attend event, send them to: oscon-idea at oreilly.com For exhibition and sponsorship opportunities, please email Sharon Cordesse at scordesse at oreilly.com For media and promotional partner opportunities, please email Avila Reese at mediapartners at oreilly.com See you in Portland in July! The OSCON 2008 Team P.S. Register by June 2 to save $250! It's fast and easy at: https://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/register/ ****************************************************** If you have a conference-related question, or do not wish to receive messages about this particular event in the future, please reply to this message. To unsubscribe from ALL O'Reilly conference announcements, send a message to: conferences-unsubscribe at oreilly.com O'Reilly Media, Inc. 1005 Gravenstein Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472 ******************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------- -- http://pdx.pm.org From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:44:44 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:44:44 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Im in ur database -- April meeting tonight Message-ID: <200804091444.44930.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Wed. April 9th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. Speaker: Selena Deckelmann Topic: Database Procedural Languages (invisible insert) Database procedural languages are a powerful tool. You can speed up your application, save network bandwidth, and impress your developer friends. And you can write the code in a language even your cat will understand. Come learn more about how to be a database hero with PL/LOLCODE: http://pllolcode.projects.postgresql.org/ This introduction to a procedural language will be offered by Selena Deckelmann. Her most recent accomplishment was running PostgreSQL Conference East, over in Washington DC. Also, Linux Magazine published her first article about PostgreSQL 8.3 in March 2008. She's also on the board of Legion of Tech http://www.legionoftech.org, and runs PDXPUG, the local PostgreSQL users group. Other stuff about her can be found at http://www.chesnok.com/daily/ -- http://pdx.pm.org From ben.hengst at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 21:33:02 2008 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:33:02 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? Message-ID: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting - games - interesting apps - parrot - make it know where perl is used - Make perl corporate/government safe - who do you call when something breaks? - show those around you how neat perl is - we have this community for a reason - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need - release Perl6 - inter-mingle with other groups -- benh~ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 01:09:01 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:09:01 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The fake.pm challenge Message-ID: <200804100109.01270.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Hi all, Some of you missed the challenge (and chance to win schwag) from last month's meeting, so I figured I would just post the urls. No: you don't get any schwag for it -- and yes, you missed waffle night. The challenge: Some of these modules are real and some are not. Without using the internet, write down your real/not answers. http://scratchcomputing.com/tmp/pm_challenge.html (You may use the internet to fetch the above link, but obviously going beyond that, using your cpan client and/or running grep on 02packages.details.txt and such is cheating.) Now, the answers. Wait! Do the challenge first or it won't be challenging. http://scratchcomputing.com/tmp/pm_answers.html The ones at the bottom are fake (or at least, they were when I wrote it.) Disclaimer: items in my /tmp/ namespace may disappear whenever I feel like it. Yes, some of the "fake" ones might be worth writing. What are you waiting for? The hardest part is naming it, and I've already done that for you. --Eric -- perl -e 'srand; print join(" ",sort({rand() < 0.5} qw(sometimes it is important to be consistent)));' --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From kris at bosland.com Thu Apr 10 10:28:27 2008 From: kris at bosland.com (Kris Bosland) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:28:27 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <269469d50804101028k586d96beuc2c46504444efada@mail.gmail.com> Hey, I am working on a perl game, partly for fun and partly as a test vehicle for developing my testing-fu. I am hoping for it to be like Crossfire . Right now I am using Tkx and trying to get fileevent working for socket communication. -Kris On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:33 PM, benh wrote: > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > - games > - interesting apps > - parrot > - make it know where perl is used > - Make perl corporate/government safe > - who do you call when something breaks? > - show those around you how neat perl is > - we have this community for a reason > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > - release Perl6 > - inter-mingle with other groups > > -- > benh~ > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080410/0db19db0/attachment.html From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 10 13:37:50 2008 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Pdx-pm] The fake.pm challenge Message-ID: <925319.54221.qm@web56412.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Some of you missed the challenge (and chance to win schwag) from last > month's meeting, so I figured I would just post the urls. No: you > don't get any schwag for it -- and yes, you missed waffle night. > > The challenge: Some of these modules are real and some are not. > Without using the internet, write down your real/not answers. > > http://scratchcomputing.com/tmp/pm_challenge.html Nice one. This reminds me of a quiz night I ran at Sydney.pm last year: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=611993 The real versus fake CPAN module questions are in "Set 5: CPAN". Oh, and I just realised that Portland.pm members are mentioned in Set 1, questions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and Set 5, questions 2 and 6. :-) Cheers, /-\ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail From hollaway at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 00:45:21 2008 From: hollaway at gmail.com (Corey Hollaway) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:45:21 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <269469d50804101028k586d96beuc2c46504444efada@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> <269469d50804101028k586d96beuc2c46504444efada@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5e95cbe60804110045g5061ff8o18d4b655b9b785ea@mail.gmail.com> > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > - parrot I don't think parrot would make perl more exciting, as long as the word "parrot" is left out of the discussion. The reason is because I don't know what "parrot" is referring to. "parrot" is like a null pointer, and therefore might lead to a segmentation fault (and therefore a psychological negative response). It's like when Java people are talking about "JBoss" or when someone brings up "object patterns" or when someone says they have a PhD, or they won the Olympics. Since "JBoss" or "object patterns" don't (to me) have any defined way for how they can help me, they appear to make the speaker look pseudo-"superior", in which the speaker becomes quickly inferior and therefore I stop listening to them. It's equivalent to someone saying they're a Godly programmer, or showcasing themselves. If I started talking about parrot to Fred (and he has no idea what parrot is, but knows that it's something important about perl), is like saying I am a God -- in which case he'll stop listening since he senses my motives are to make myself look much better than he is. To help kids think perl is cool is to talk about things that can help them with stuff they already know about. Not to talk about words that lead to segmentation faults and false-intention-guessing and inferiority build-up. The only evidence I have is myself...I've been programming with perl for awhile now, but when someone brings up the world "parrot," anxiety and anger just burst out, for I feel the intention of the author is to showcase themselves with a buzzword (VS helping me get problems solved). I know, I could look the word up on Wikipedia, but that's not the point. The point is, if one wants to boost the popularity of perl (or anything), words like "parrot" need to be avoided so that the $target doesn't execute $target->feelings_of_inferior($src); we need to prove that our intentions is to make the $target feel empowered and powerful given the tools of perl, so that $target->likeability('perl')++, you know what I'm talkin' about? Our mission is to psychologically avoid all negative implications. That's my 2 cents. Sincerely, Corey -------------------------- assumption: 99.99% communication is subjective. assumption: Subjective is based on personal wants. Conclusion: Therefore everyone is selfish. -- Corey Hollaway Programmer / Web Developer E-mail: hollaway at gmail.com On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Kris Bosland wrote: > Hey, I am working on a perl game, partly for fun and partly as a test > vehicle for developing my testing-fu. I am hoping for it to be like > Crossfire. Right now I am using Tkx and trying to get fileevent working for > socket communication. > > -Kris > > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:33 PM, benh wrote: > > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > - games > > - interesting apps > > - parrot > > - make it know where perl is used > > - Make perl corporate/government safe > > - who do you call when something breaks? > > - show those around you how neat perl is > > - we have this community for a reason > > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > > - release Perl6 > > - inter-mingle with other groups > > > > -- > > benh~ > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From ben.hengst at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 09:48:41 2008 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:48:41 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <5e95cbe60804110045g5061ff8o18d4b655b9b785ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> <269469d50804101028k586d96beuc2c46504444efada@mail.gmail.com> <5e95cbe60804110045g5061ff8o18d4b655b9b785ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0804110948kd7bc624y693ee88b3db3053a@mail.gmail.com> Corey I understand to some extent, things that you do not know are confusing. But I have a problem with your post is that I think that you are taking the stance that to gain the masses we should not push the limits and reach for the least common denominator as the norm. I do not feel that this is the way for success on any level. The intent for this community is Learning, and Learning by its very nature requires that there be something unknown that becomes known. So at some point we have to force people to deal with something unknown and potentially scary. Where I think that we as a community do well is if the learner shows some initiative then we tend to give them the support that they need. Something that we could try and do more is to reach further down the line and try and pick up those that have interest but are not showing any initiative, though this is a very hard task and can not be done en-mass. It has to be done one person to one person one example at a time. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Corey Hollaway wrote: > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > > - parrot > I don't think parrot would make perl more exciting, as long as the > word "parrot" is left out of the discussion. The reason is because I > don't know what "parrot" is referring to. "parrot" is like a null > pointer, and therefore might lead to a segmentation fault (and > therefore a psychological negative response). It's like when Java > people are talking about "JBoss" or when someone brings up "object > patterns" or when someone says they have a PhD, or they won the > Olympics. Since "JBoss" or "object patterns" don't (to me) have any > defined way for how they can help me, they appear to make the speaker > look pseudo-"superior", in which the speaker becomes quickly inferior > and therefore I stop listening to them. It's equivalent to someone > saying they're a Godly programmer, or showcasing themselves. If I > started talking about parrot to Fred (and he has no idea what parrot > is, but knows that it's something important about perl), is like > saying I am a God -- in which case he'll stop listening since he > senses my motives are to make myself look much better than he is. > > To help kids think perl is cool is to talk about things that can help > them with stuff they already know about. Not to talk about words that > lead to segmentation faults and false-intention-guessing and > inferiority build-up. > > The only evidence I have is myself...I've been programming with perl > for awhile now, but when someone brings up the world "parrot," anxiety > and anger just burst out, for I feel the intention of the author is to > showcase themselves with a buzzword (VS helping me get problems > solved). I know, I could look the word up on Wikipedia, but that's > not the point. The point is, if one wants to boost the popularity of > perl (or anything), words like "parrot" need to be avoided so that the > $target doesn't execute $target->feelings_of_inferior($src); we need > to prove that our intentions is to make the $target feel empowered and > powerful given the tools of perl, so that > $target->likeability('perl')++, you know what I'm talkin' about? Our > mission is to psychologically avoid all negative implications. > > That's my 2 cents. > > Sincerely, > Corey > > -------------------------- > assumption: 99.99% communication is subjective. > assumption: Subjective is based on personal wants. > Conclusion: Therefore everyone is selfish. > > -- > Corey Hollaway > Programmer / Web Developer > E-mail: hollaway at gmail.com > > > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Kris Bosland wrote: > > Hey, I am working on a perl game, partly for fun and partly as a test > > vehicle for developing my testing-fu. I am hoping for it to be like > > Crossfire. Right now I am using Tkx and trying to get fileevent working for > > socket communication. > > > > -Kris > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:33 PM, benh wrote: > > > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > > > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > > > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > > - games > > > - interesting apps > > > - parrot > > > - make it know where perl is used > > > - Make perl corporate/government safe > > > - who do you call when something breaks? > > > - show those around you how neat perl is > > > - we have this community for a reason > > > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > > > - release Perl6 > > > - inter-mingle with other groups > > > > > > -- > > > benh~ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From kaskach at usgs.gov Fri Apr 11 10:14:07 2008 From: kaskach at usgs.gov (Kenneth A Skach) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:14:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0804110948kd7bc624y693ee88b3db3053a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ben, I think Corey has a valid point. When I read Portland Perl Mongers (PPM) messages, I often have no idea what you're talking about. There's a lot of jargon, acronyms & software names. I could look everything up, as Corey says, but frankly, I rarely do so because I'm busy doing my job. And I am a "perl programmer" (since I make tools using perl), although I don't feel like one when I don't "speak your language". To be fair, not ALL postings to PPM have been unintelligibly cryptic... just quite a few. At the same time, I am convinced that PPM folks are a very helpful, smart and cool group. I am repeatedly impressed at the generous sharing that goes on, and the genuine helpfullness that permeates this group. That's what has kept me signed onto PPM for the past year & a half. But if we write only to the clique of well-versed perl masters who are "as smart as us", the rest of the audience won't benefit from our post. Ben, I don't think it takes reaching for the least common denominator, but I do think we can consider our audience more. I bet a lot of people read PPM who don't post there (like me). If we want to attract more students to perl (and to PPM), we can try to write with them more in mind as our audience. Ken Skach benh To Sent by: "Corey Hollaway" pdx-pm-list-bounc es+kaskach=usgs.g cc ov at pm.org Portland Perl Mongers Subject 04/11/2008 09:48 Re: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What AM can we do about the low student SoC turn out? Corey I understand to some extent, things that you do not know are confusing. But I have a problem with your post is that I think that you are taking the stance that to gain the masses we should not push the limits and reach for the least common denominator as the norm. I do not feel that this is the way for success on any level. The intent for this community is Learning, and Learning by its very nature requires that there be something unknown that becomes known. So at some point we have to force people to deal with something unknown and potentially scary. Where I think that we as a community do well is if the learner shows some initiative then we tend to give them the support that they need. Something that we could try and do more is to reach further down the line and try and pick up those that have interest but are not showing any initiative, though this is a very hard task and can not be done en-mass. It has to be done one person to one person one example at a time. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Corey Hollaway wrote: > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > > - parrot > I don't think parrot would make perl more exciting, as long as the > word "parrot" is left out of the discussion. The reason is because I > don't know what "parrot" is referring to. "parrot" is like a null > pointer, and therefore might lead to a segmentation fault (and > therefore a psychological negative response). It's like when Java > people are talking about "JBoss" or when someone brings up "object > patterns" or when someone says they have a PhD, or they won the > Olympics. Since "JBoss" or "object patterns" don't (to me) have any > defined way for how they can help me, they appear to make the speaker > look pseudo-"superior", in which the speaker becomes quickly inferior > and therefore I stop listening to them. It's equivalent to someone > saying they're a Godly programmer, or showcasing themselves. If I > started talking about parrot to Fred (and he has no idea what parrot > is, but knows that it's something important about perl), is like > saying I am a God -- in which case he'll stop listening since he > senses my motives are to make myself look much better than he is. > > To help kids think perl is cool is to talk about things that can help > them with stuff they already know about. Not to talk about words that > lead to segmentation faults and false-intention-guessing and > inferiority build-up. > > The only evidence I have is myself...I've been programming with perl > for awhile now, but when someone brings up the world "parrot," anxiety > and anger just burst out, for I feel the intention of the author is to > showcase themselves with a buzzword (VS helping me get problems > solved). I know, I could look the word up on Wikipedia, but that's > not the point. The point is, if one wants to boost the popularity of > perl (or anything), words like "parrot" need to be avoided so that the > $target doesn't execute $target->feelings_of_inferior($src); we need > to prove that our intentions is to make the $target feel empowered and > powerful given the tools of perl, so that > $target->likeability('perl')++, you know what I'm talkin' about? Our > mission is to psychologically avoid all negative implications. > > That's my 2 cents. > > Sincerely, > Corey > > -------------------------- > assumption: 99.99% communication is subjective. > assumption: Subjective is based on personal wants. > Conclusion: Therefore everyone is selfish. > > -- > Corey Hollaway > Programmer / Web Developer > E-mail: hollaway at gmail.com > > > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Kris Bosland wrote: > > Hey, I am working on a perl game, partly for fun and partly as a test > > vehicle for developing my testing-fu. I am hoping for it to be like > > Crossfire. Right now I am using Tkx and trying to get fileevent working for > > socket communication. > > > > -Kris > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:33 PM, benh wrote: > > > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > > > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > > > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > > - games > > > - interesting apps > > > - parrot > > > - make it know where perl is used > > > - Make perl corporate/government safe > > > - who do you call when something breaks? > > > - show those around you how neat perl is > > > - we have this community for a reason > > > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > > > - release Perl6 > > > - inter-mingle with other groups > > > > > > -- > > > benh~ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ _______________________________________________ Pdx-pm-list mailing list Pdx-pm-list at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From jerry.gay at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 10:44:56 2008 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:44:56 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: References: <85ddf48b0804110948kd7bc624y693ee88b3db3053a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d9a3f400804111044y28b8518l4957f0ef1c1439c1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Kenneth A Skach wrote: > Ben, I think Corey has a valid point. > > When I read Portland Perl Mongers (PPM) messages, I often have no idea what > you're talking about. There's a lot of jargon, acronyms & software names. > I could look everything up, as Corey says, but frankly, I rarely do so > because I'm busy doing my job. And I am a "perl programmer" (since I make > tools using perl), although I don't feel like one when I don't "speak your > language". To be fair, not ALL postings to PPM have been unintelligibly > cryptic... just quite a few. > > At the same time, I am convinced that PPM folks are a very helpful, smart > and cool group. I am repeatedly impressed at the generous sharing that > goes on, and the genuine helpfullness that permeates this group. That's > what has kept me signed onto PPM for the past year & a half. But if we > write only to the clique of well-versed perl masters who are "as smart as > us", the rest of the audience won't benefit from our post. > i don' think there's anybody on this list that will fail to respond to a message asking for clarification or elucidation... but you won't get any unless you ask for it! ~jerry From chromatic at wgz.org Fri Apr 11 11:05:51 2008 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:05:51 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <1d9a3f400804111044y28b8518l4957f0ef1c1439c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0804110948kd7bc624y693ee88b3db3053a@mail.gmail.com> <1d9a3f400804111044y28b8518l4957f0ef1c1439c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804111105.51548.chromatic@wgz.org> On Friday 11 April 2008 10:44:56 jerry gay wrote: > i don' think there's anybody on this list that will fail to respond to > a message asking for clarification or elucidation... but you won't get > any unless you ask for it! There's the lurker paradox, though. If you subscribe to a list of smart people talking about smart things you don't necessarily understand, do you really want to interrupt the conversation and ask for explanation of everything you don't understand? Even if there are a dozen lurkers for every poster who want the same thing, you can't see any of the others, and you don't know if you're the only person confused or wanting more information. I don't know how to break that dilemma, but I've seen it many times, and I suspect it's happened on this list often. -- c From colin.kuskie at maxim-ic.com Fri Apr 11 11:09:31 2008 From: colin.kuskie at maxim-ic.com (Colin Kuskie) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:09:31 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <200804111105.51548.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <85ddf48b0804110948kd7bc624y693ee88b3db3053a@mail.gmail.com> <1d9a3f400804111044y28b8518l4957f0ef1c1439c1@mail.gmail.com> <200804111105.51548.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <200804111109.31747.colin.kuskie@maxim-ic.com> On Friday 11 April 2008 11:05, chromatic wrote: > On Friday 11 April 2008 10:44:56 jerry gay wrote: > > > i don' think there's anybody on this list that will fail to respond to > > a message asking for clarification or elucidation... but you won't get > > any unless you ask for it! > > There's the lurker paradox, though. If you subscribe to a list of smart > people talking about smart things you don't necessarily understand, do you > really want to interrupt the conversation and ask for explanation of > everything you don't understand? Even if there are a dozen lurkers for every > poster who want the same thing, you can't see any of the others, and you > don't know if you're the only person confused or wanting more information. > > I don't know how to break that dilemma, but I've seen it many times, and I > suspect it's happened on this list often. Yup Colin From shlomif at iglu.org.il Fri Apr 11 12:03:35 2008 From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:03:35 +0300 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804112203.35587.shlomif@iglu.org.il> On Thursday 10 April 2008, benh wrote: > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > - games Game development frameworks like Squeak's E-Toys will be nice, I think. The default perl 5 distribution, while usable for doing sys-admin tasks, is too serious and not useful for anything else. If we had a Task::PerlToys (tentative name) which will grab a nice environment like Squeak's EToys or PLT Dr Scheme that would be nice. Back when I started programming, I used BASIC on an XT ROM BASIC, which was very cool. I got to writing simple games that ran on my XT very quickly. Now, as opposed to LOGO, which was another pedagogical language, BASIC was actually very useful. Larry Wall tells here on how he wrote a compiler in BASIC: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/12/06/soto-11.html {{{{{{{ But you could do extreme programming. In fact, I had a college buddy I did pair programming with. We took a compiler writing class together and studied all that fancy stuff from the dragon book. Then of course the professor announced we would be implementing our own language, called PL/0. After thinking about it a while, we announced that we were going to do our project in BASIC. The professor looked at us like were insane. Nobody else in the class was using BASIC. And you know what? Nobody else in the class finished their compiler either. We not only finished but added I/O extensions, and called it PL 0.5. That's rapid prototyping. }}}}}}} BASIC was so cool, that there's BASIC code still used in production now in many obscure places. You can still see various influences of BASIC in modern languages such as Perl, Python, Ruby, etc. and it probably also made some influences on the Lisps too. (Java is too little BASIC-like if you ask me.) > - interesting apps The problem is that most Perl code is used "in-house" or pseudo-in-house. While true for most other technologies (see http://catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron-3.html ). There are some commercial, FOSS or both Perl apps out there: http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_applications The question is naturally, what kinds will interest kids. Games, naturally. But they may also like the give-me-my-own-web-site-in-5-minutes that PHP is famous for. I started the Fullperl effort to facilitate this: http://web-cpan.berlios.de/Fullperl/ I lost interest relatively quickly, though, but the idea still seems sound to me. They also like writing desktop apps. I think Perl has good support for Gtk+, but Perl/Qt and Perl/KDE have been unmaintained. > - parrot Yes. > - make it know where perl is used > - Make perl corporate/government safe > - who do you call when something breaks? Who do you call when Python breaks? Or PHP? I also know that support for proprietary technologies is often lacking. In any case, some people and companies sell you Perl support, either per-perl or as part of the OS distribution. I suppose creating a registry of Perl contractors/supporters/trainers/etc. would be a good idea as a complementary to jobs.perl.org and jobs.perl.com. I used to have a simple meta-data-database-driven CGI::App application, with two config files - one for tracking (Linux-related) jobs and one for tracking consultant in Israel. It since went offline (though I hope at least the jobs tracker will return), but you can find its source code here: http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/web-cpan/WWW-OneTable-MiniReporter/ You can probably do something better using one of them modern web-application development frameworks (Catalyst, RoR, etc.) or alternatively just using a wiki. > - show those around you how neat perl is > - we have this community for a reason > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > - release Perl6 I think Perl 5 is cool enough. Some people are waiting for Perl 6, but we need to explain how learning Perl 5 won't be time-wasted, and how it will be used and maintained for years to come (and other reasons that make people afraid of learning Perl in the first place.) > - inter-mingle with other groups Right. In Israel, I jump-started the Israeli Python group, and also gave some advice to the Ruby-ILers. I started learning Ruby and it seems interesting. I'll give my own take of this issue later on, because KMail is misbehaving in this message, for the first time ever. (A Heisenbug probably). Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080411/215faf60/attachment.html From kellert at ohsu.edu Fri Apr 11 12:39:29 2008 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <200804112203.35587.shlomif@iglu.org.il> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> <200804112203.35587.shlomif@iglu.org.il> Message-ID: <68A26322-998C-4526-A430-3132899B8543@ohsu.edu> Here's a second for Slomi's idea of job posting. Perhaps this could be incorporated into the pdxpm wiki (?). Cool apps are fun, but even young people think about their employment prospects, and the effort/return ratio. Tom MMI Shared Resource Facility 4-2442 kellert at ohsu.edu BSc 6339b On Apr 11, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote: > On Thursday 10 April 2008, benh wrote: > > > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > > > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > > > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > > - games > > > Game development frameworks like Squeak's E-Toys will be nice, I > think. The default perl 5 distribution, while usable for doing sys- > admin tasks, is too serious and not useful for anything else. If we > had a Task::PerlToys (tentative name) which will grab a nice > environment like Squeak's EToys or PLT Dr Scheme that would be nice. > > > Back when I started programming, I used BASIC on an XT ROM BASIC, > which was very cool. I got to writing simple games that ran on my > XT very quickly. Now, as opposed to LOGO, which was another > pedagogical language, BASIC was actually very useful. Larry Wall > tells here on how he wrote a compiler in BASIC: > > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/12/06/soto-11.html > > > {{{{{{{ > > But you could do extreme programming. In fact, I had a college > buddy I did pair programming with. We took a compiler writing class > together and studied all that fancy stuff from the dragon book. > Then of course the professor announced we would be implementing our > own language, called PL/0. After thinking about it a while, we > announced that we were going to do our project in BASIC. The > professor looked at us like were insane. Nobody else in the class > was using BASIC. And you know what? Nobody else in the class > finished their compiler either. We not only finished but added I/O > extensions, and called it PL 0.5. That's rapid prototyping. > > }}}}}}} > > > BASIC was so cool, that there's BASIC code still used in production > now in many obscure places. You can still see various influences of > BASIC in modern languages such as Perl, Python, Ruby, etc. and it > probably also made some influences on the Lisps too. (Java is too > little BASIC-like if you ask me.) > > > > - interesting apps > > > The problem is that most Perl code is used "in-house" or pseudo-in- > house. While true for most other technologies (see http://catb.org/ > ~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron-3.html ). There are > some commercial, FOSS or both Perl apps out there: > > > http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_applications > > > The question is naturally, what kinds will interest kids. Games, > naturally. But they may also like the give-me-my-own-web-site-in-5- > minutes that PHP is famous for. I started the Fullperl effort to > facilitate this: > > > http://web-cpan.berlios.de/Fullperl/ > > > I lost interest relatively quickly, though, but the idea still > seems sound to me. > > > They also like writing desktop apps. I think Perl has good support > for Gtk+, but Perl/Qt and Perl/KDE have been unmaintained. > > > - parrot > > > Yes. > > > > - make it know where perl is used > > > > - Make perl corporate/government safe > > > - who do you call when something breaks? > > > Who do you call when Python breaks? Or PHP? I also know that > support for proprietary technologies is often lacking. > > > In any case, some people and companies sell you Perl support, > either per-perl or as part of the OS distribution. I suppose > creating a registry of Perl contractors/supporters/trainers/etc. > would be a good idea as a complementary to jobs.perl.org and > jobs.perl.com. > > > I used to have a simple meta-data-database-driven CGI::App > application, with two config files - one for tracking (Linux- > related) jobs and one for tracking consultant in Israel. It since > went offline (though I hope at least the jobs tracker will return), > but you can find its source code here: > > > http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/web-cpan/WWW-OneTable- > MiniReporter/ > > > You can probably do something better using one of them modern web- > application development frameworks (Catalyst, RoR, etc.) or > alternatively just using a wiki. > > > - show those around you how neat perl is > > > - we have this community for a reason > > > - share the love, Tom(?) is creating parsers for others in need > > > - release Perl6 > > > I think Perl 5 is cool enough. Some people are waiting for Perl 6, > but we need to explain how learning Perl 5 won't be time-wasted, > and how it will be used and maintained for years to come (and other > reasons that make people afraid of learning Perl in the first place.) > > > - inter-mingle with other groups > > > Right. In Israel, I jump-started the Israeli Python group, and also > gave some advice to the Ruby-ILers. I started learning Ruby and it > seems interesting. > > > I'll give my own take of this issue later on, because KMail is > misbehaving in this message, for the first time ever. (A Heisenbug > probably). > > > Regards, > > > Shlomi Fish > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il > > Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ > > > I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080411/6efc40f6/attachment-0001.html From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 12:56:31 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:56:31 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5Bmeeting_notes=5D_What_can_we_do_about_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?the_low_student=09SoC_turn_out=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200804111256.31423.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Kenneth A Skach # on Friday 11 April 2008 10:14: >But if we >write only to the clique of well-versed perl masters who are "as smart > as us", the rest of the audience won't benefit from our post. I think this is a classic issue of diversity. The Perl community has a lot of diversity both in mastery of the language and in specific domains or interests. A sysadmin, a web developer, and a gui designer walk into a problem ... (end of joke is left as an exercise for the reader, but likely involves NFS, mysql, and dcop (or maybe regedit, SOAP, and ActiveX.)) > I do think we can consider our audience more. Who is our audience? The experienced user cannot correctly remember his own inexperienced point of view because the memory is filtered through experience. Add to that the "beforehand" diversity of experience from elsewhere (e.g. assembly/C/Java, network/threads, etc) and you have a big pile of people capable of fluently talking past each other on a wide range of subjects and levels. The involvement of the new user is helped by the contribution of the nearly-new user. But if you don't see someone who appears to be one rung above you probably forgot to look left and right. I think Perl is much more like an upside-down pyramid than a ladder -- well really, there aren't any sharp corners or well-defined insides and outsides so it is probably an oblique cone of trajectories within one sigma (or possibly a hypercone.) That is: I can't write for an audience without knowing (or imagining) their point of view. This has another factor when discussing a mailing list (vs a meeting topic or article on a website) in that, on a mailing list, I'm not likely to write an answer to an un-asked question and I'm not likely to ask a question which I have already answered. So, to generate some empathy (and entropy), let's take parrot for instance: 1. parrot will be a perl 6 interpreter 2. parrot is a multi-language dynamic virtual machine 3. parrot provides an object-oriented dynamic assembly language 4. parrot has tools for writing compilers and performing syntax tree transformation (or something like that) I've listed those in the order which *I* understand them, and the likelyhood that I'm getting it wrong increases as we go. But, even at #1, some readers might be thinking "'_a_ perl 6 interpreter'? are there more?" or "what is this 'will be'!? do not want vaporware!". Well, for those who came to Perl after 2000, "the whole Perl 6 thing" has probably been filed under "call me when it is done" for various reasons. But this is not apple, so we don't have a bunch of programmers in the back working on it while Larry just chooses the best of 10,000 black turtlenecks to wear to the unveiling. It didn't work that way with Perl 5 either, but the best parallel is probably the 1.0 - 5.0 (1987-1994) period (hmm, better ask someone who was there.) Except, a lot of what we know as "Perl" today is 5.6, which didn't get here until 2000. The point here: the Perl community needs the Perl community to care about parrot. They also need to be patient, but they also need to get involved. The tricky part: parrot broadens the spectrum of diversity in multiple dimensions simultaneously. It is not just about Perl 6, but also Perl 5, lisp, php, tcl, python, smalltalk, lolcode, Perl 1, etc. It is not a simple interpreter, but a vast landscape of compiler tools and a cross-language highly parallel dynamic runtime which is about to grow a tri-color garbage collector. It has lots of interests ranging from the very academic to the very practical. Ok, I barely understand most of that paragraph and half of it is probably wrong (or incomplete or partially correct.) So why should I be thinking about parrot today and how do I even get started understanding what I can do with it which is not (personally perceived as) an exercise in futility and/or how do I define a personal goal which is fulfilling, visibly reachable on a scale of days or weeks, and fits my skills+interests within the time available? That is, how do I get involved without losing my patience? How do I keep it interesting, learn something, and not go insane? Yes that is a difficult jumble of question. (Likely more on this in another thread.) So, that's what happens to me when I look at http://parrotcode.org. Others might have the same difficulty approaching Moose, Catalyst, mod_perl, wxPerl, or even Perl in general. The point is that you are probably not alone, and the only way to discover your virtual boatmates is to ask. This is not a nice rectangular swimming pool with a deep end and a shallow end -- it is sometimes murky and usually random, with streams, waterfalls, icebergs, sinkholes, and various shark-infested puddles -- but you can surf the icebergs and drive your submarine up the waterfall if you want to learn how. We have meetings once a month, and the topics are typically generated by the people who attend those meetings. But I am always looking for new topics and new speakers. If ten people who aren't currently coming to meetings told me that they would come given X or Y topic I would at least have something to go on. If you can't make the meeting because of schedule, let's start some coffee groups, westside lunches or whatever. I can read your Perl, but not your mind ;-) --Eric -- Speak softly and carry a big carrot. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From hollaway at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 19:32:40 2008 From: hollaway at gmail.com (Corey Hollaway) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:32:40 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <200804111256.31423.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200804111256.31423.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <5e95cbe60804111932i76d9f9f8l4800ab14d8ece2a@mail.gmail.com> > ...be thinking about parrot today and how do I even get started > understanding what I can do with it which is not (personally perceived > as) an exercise in futility and/or how do I define a personal goal > which is fulfilling, visibly reachable on a scale of days or weeks, and > fits my skills+interests within the time available? That is, how do I > get involved without losing my patience? How do I keep it interesting, > learn something, and not go insane? Just keep executing this script ($self means ourselves, the GOTO label is suppose to be at the top of the file, == is intentional, and the 3rd line in the script has to do with encapsulation to a more specific object, and I didn't use if brackets): #!/bin/life # Goal Seeker my $possibility = (A_Possibility)$self->creativity(); $self->ask("What if $possibility became true in 24-hours?"); if($self->feelings() == "doubtful, negative-based, disappointing, hesitant") # the next creative possibility may just be a more # specific or different version of the last # $possibility # if the next possibility is related to this one and # gives feelings of "whoa, cool, heck yeah!", then I call # that possibility (i.e., "the next") a "backdoor" # to take on the same goal as its predecessor, but # with a different emotional response/interpretation goto NEXT_CREATIVE_POSSIBILITY; elsif($self->feelings() == "whoa, cool, heck yeah!") $self->focus_energy($possibility); The goal is to totally focus on $possibility, and constantly thinking about how each of my actions will affect the probability that the $possibility will come true. The goal is to increase the probability to 100%, and think of nothing else as important (to avoid a psychological change in what is important), except for making sure the probability is as high as possible. An example run: What if I read Bill Clinton's book called _Life_? @SIG_FEELINGS = [disinterest, unimportant] What if I dressed up like a bunny and hopped across the street? @SIG_FEELINGS = [embarrassment, anxiety] What if I read a programming book right now? @SIG_FEELINGS = [anxiety, struggle, emptiness] What if I quickly went through a perl book and added a cool/neat idea to my perl reference sheet? @SIG_FEELINGS = [sweet!, cool!] So then I choose to add a neat idea QUICKLY to my perl reference sheet. The probability of the possibility occurring is initially 67% (i.e., an internal estimate), and if I distract myself the probability lowers (which is one of many countless actions I could perform that would affect the probability of the goal completing more or less successfully). So my goal would be to seek a plan and execute it as quickly as possible (e.g., open a PDF perl book, quickly go to the index, and find some keywords that sound interesting). Ya gotta be fast or the mind starts to give you signals of doubt or hesitation, which will only jeopardize your probability of making the $possibility come true. I was reading a psychology book, and it did say that our ability to know or expect to feel in the future is not accurate about how we will feel during the actual experience... So it might be best to use the above program logic only for short-term goals...? Or is that speculation even related to the length of a goal..I'm not sure... So to apply the above to the subject of this thread... I think trying to give out @ideas/@goals to kids that can force them yield feelings of "sweet! awesome! cool!" that can ___appeal to as many people as we can___, then that would be yield more people to try some perl! ;) Example @goals would be like... [ "How Parrot can help you right now", "How Catalyst can help you make a small Web site in a few steps", "How to let perl exploit a buffer overrun in a sample server program with packet injection by using module Net::RawIP", "How to make perl seem like a monolithic language like PHP? (i.e., in terms of documentation/function quality and finding/remembering functions/documentation you used in the past)" "How to let perl $do_something_cool [by using $a_specific_module]" ] The automatic it is (for example, copying and pasting), the higher the probability of perl popularity success. The more the goal appeals to the $target's interests, the higher the probability of perl popularity success. Now that's what I'm talkin' about ;) Moreover, the Web site that hosts these articles would need to be attractive, professional-looking, and all negative energy (e.g., the where-is-perl-6 pandemic, which is being used as a weapon in language warfare) needs to be crushed. Attractiveness is an illogical but highly-effective way of making something more valuable. Speaking of value...I sense a negative cloud reigning over all of the CPAN packages, like 'low quality,' 'poor documentation,' and the pesky 'created by a 3rd party' negative-associator. We could tackle each of these points of attack on perl with statistics, graphs, comparisons to other language's documentation, quality, bugs, etc...and just have a huge campaign. On the main perl.org page there could be group of images that link to the pages of evidence: Why does perl have the best documentation for the core and its modules? What language did Samy use the most? (this was a joke ;P) Why does perl have the highest quality modules? Why is perl the best choice to rip mp3s off of a web site? (and yet another joke, but still kinda-true) I say we have a campaign and call it "The Community Golden-Age for Perl," and heck, we might as well change the camel to a camel with twin machine guns and a smoke hangin' out. Who's with me!? I don't know about you, but I'm ready to shoot my ego straight to the stars. Sincerely, Corey On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Kenneth A Skach > # on Friday 11 April 2008 10:14: > > > >But if we > >write only to the clique of well-versed perl masters who are "as smart > > as us", the rest of the audience won't benefit from our post. > > I think this is a classic issue of diversity. The Perl community has a > lot of diversity both in mastery of the language and in specific > domains or interests. > > A sysadmin, a web developer, and a gui designer walk into a problem ... > (end of joke is left as an exercise for the reader, but likely involves > NFS, mysql, and dcop (or maybe regedit, SOAP, and ActiveX.)) > > > > I do think we can consider our audience more. > > Who is our audience? > > The experienced user cannot correctly remember his own inexperienced > point of view because the memory is filtered through experience. Add > to that the "beforehand" diversity of experience from elsewhere (e.g. > assembly/C/Java, network/threads, etc) and you have a big pile of > people capable of fluently talking past each other on a wide range of > subjects and levels. > > The involvement of the new user is helped by the contribution of the > nearly-new user. But if you don't see someone who appears to be one > rung above you probably forgot to look left and right. I think Perl is > much more like an upside-down pyramid than a ladder -- well really, > there aren't any sharp corners or well-defined insides and outsides so > it is probably an oblique cone of trajectories within one sigma (or > possibly a hypercone.) > > That is: I can't write for an audience without knowing (or imagining) > their point of view. This has another factor when discussing a mailing > list (vs a meeting topic or article on a website) in that, on a mailing > list, I'm not likely to write an answer to an un-asked question and I'm > not likely to ask a question which I have already answered. > > So, to generate some empathy (and entropy), let's take parrot for > instance: > > 1. parrot will be a perl 6 interpreter > 2. parrot is a multi-language dynamic virtual machine > 3. parrot provides an object-oriented dynamic assembly language > 4. parrot has tools for writing compilers and performing syntax > tree transformation (or something like that) > > I've listed those in the order which *I* understand them, and the > likelyhood that I'm getting it wrong increases as we go. But, even at > #1, some readers might be thinking "'_a_ perl 6 interpreter'? are there > more?" or "what is this 'will be'!? do not want vaporware!". > > Well, for those who came to Perl after 2000, "the whole Perl 6 thing" > has probably been filed under "call me when it is done" for various > reasons. But this is not apple, so we don't have a bunch of > programmers in the back working on it while Larry just chooses the best > of 10,000 black turtlenecks to wear to the unveiling. It didn't work > that way with Perl 5 either, but the best parallel is probably the > 1.0 - 5.0 (1987-1994) period (hmm, better ask someone who was there.) > Except, a lot of what we know as "Perl" today is 5.6, which didn't get > here until 2000. The point here: the Perl community needs the Perl > community to care about parrot. They also need to be patient, but they > also need to get involved. > > The tricky part: parrot broadens the spectrum of diversity in multiple > dimensions simultaneously. It is not just about Perl 6, but also Perl > 5, lisp, php, tcl, python, smalltalk, lolcode, Perl 1, etc. It is not > a simple interpreter, but a vast landscape of compiler tools and a > cross-language highly parallel dynamic runtime which is about to grow a > tri-color garbage collector. It has lots of interests ranging from the > very academic to the very practical. > > Ok, I barely understand most of that paragraph and half of it is > probably wrong (or incomplete or partially correct.) So why should I > be thinking about parrot today and how do I even get started > understanding what I can do with it which is not (personally perceived > as) an exercise in futility and/or how do I define a personal goal > which is fulfilling, visibly reachable on a scale of days or weeks, and > fits my skills+interests within the time available? That is, how do I > get involved without losing my patience? How do I keep it interesting, > learn something, and not go insane? Yes that is a difficult jumble of > question. (Likely more on this in another thread.) > > So, that's what happens to me when I look at http://parrotcode.org. > > Others might have the same difficulty approaching Moose, Catalyst, > mod_perl, wxPerl, or even Perl in general. The point is that you are > probably not alone, and the only way to discover your virtual boatmates > is to ask. This is not a nice rectangular swimming pool with a deep > end and a shallow end -- it is sometimes murky and usually random, with > streams, waterfalls, icebergs, sinkholes, and various shark-infested > puddles -- but you can surf the icebergs and drive your submarine up > the waterfall if you want to learn how. > > We have meetings once a month, and the topics are typically generated by > the people who attend those meetings. But I am always looking for new > topics and new speakers. If ten people who aren't currently coming to > meetings told me that they would come given X or Y topic I would at > least have something to go on. If you can't make the meeting because > of schedule, let's start some coffee groups, westside lunches or > whatever. I can read your Perl, but not your mind ;-) > > --Eric > -- > Speak softly and carry a big carrot. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From shlomif at iglu.org.il Fri Apr 11 23:29:54 2008 From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:29:54 +0300 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [meeting notes] What can we do about the low student SoC turn out? In-Reply-To: <200804112203.35587.shlomif@iglu.org.il> References: <85ddf48b0804092133g4ae65696x8c144cd8e7afaf5b@mail.gmail.com> <200804112203.35587.shlomif@iglu.org.il> Message-ID: <200804120929.54876.shlomif@iglu.org.il> On Friday 11 April 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote: > On Thursday 10 April 2008, benh wrote: > > Here are all the things that I scribbled down from the meeting > > tonight, add and comment as you feel necessary. > > > > - Make perl 'cool' so that the kids think that it's exciting > > - games > [Snipped] > > Right. In Israel, I jump-started the Israeli Python group, and also gave > some advice to the Ruby-ILers. I started learning Ruby and it seems > interesting. > > I'll give my own take of this issue later on, because KMail is misbehaving > in this message, for the first time ever. (A Heisenbug probably). > One of the presentations I attended an made the most sense is this one: http://www.sparkthis.com/2006/02/slides_the_hack.html ("The Hacker's Guide to Marketing"). You can try to see how well the first hits in http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=perl&btnG=Search fare according to it. (Though perl.com and perl.org has improved since last I saw), and from what I can see now at least perl.org is now the first hit instead of perl.com. I tried to take the marketing approach into account when working on http://perl-begin.org/ , but the testimonials part could use more work, and I could really use the help of a professional graphics designer (And probably a professional web-stylist.), but probably cannot really afford them. Another problem I see is that Perl has become somewhat of a legacy technology. Joel on Software describes what happened to OLE/COM here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html <<<<< That's a huge difference, and when I talked to some friends from Microsoft Consulting Services about this they admitted that Microsoft had lost a whole generation of developers. The reason it takes $130,000 to hire someone with COM experience is because nobody bothered learning COM programming in the last eight years or so, so you have to find somebody really senior, usually they're already in management, and convince them to take a job as a grunt programmer, dealing with (God help me) marshalling and monikers and apartment threading and aggregates and tearoffs and a million other things that, basically, only Don Box ever understood, and even Don Box can't bear to look at them any more. >>>>> Obviously Perl is still actively developed, loved by many people, and still attracts some developers, is not as hard as COM or OLE, and in a better shape. However, it still has the same problem that it's not what all the cool kids hear about, and is the latest trend. Ruby had some buzz due to Ruby-on-Rails, but from what people told me the buzz is now largely over, and the cool kids have moved to greener pastures. Perl is also controversial: it was not meant to be likable by anyone, or particularly aesthetic, or a "small language", nor was a serious corporate attempt was done to hype it, like Java was. It happened to be there at the right moment when the web revolution started, became popular and since then probably lost some of its popularity. Where was I? I'm not sure if we should try to renew a new hyper-buzz about Perl. But it should be doable to counter a lot of the negative hype surrounding Perl and the fact that many people feel they shouldn't bother learning it. Another aspect is to convince workplaces that they should train capable and promising programmers in Perl. While the project head probably needs to have quite a lot of experience in Perl (see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LordPalmerston.html ), some of his underlings can be new Perl programmers. I've heard that several workplaces now are desperately looking for Perl programmers, and some even consider switching to something else (Java, PHP or .NET are usually considered good candidates by them) because they cannot find good programmers. Perhaps an article about it would be a good idea. As strange as it sounds, I had problems finding a Perl job. I didn't see anything of relevance in http://jobs.perl.org.il/ for a long time, or on the Linux-IL mailing list. Some companies include Perl as part of a general sys-admin, web-programming or QA requirements, but I wasn't accepted there.[1] At the moment, I'm working as a Linux server C++ programmer. The code that originated from Win32 gives me a lot of problem, mostly due to portability problems that are manifested at run-time (the worst kind), but the work is mostly OK and the people are nice. I may feel I'm over-qualified to work purely in Perl, because I have a B.Sc. in Electrical Engineering, and because I know C/C++ and Assembler in and out. The job I thought idea was to do something between software and hardware, like programming Embedded Systems, Signal Processing or kernel or drivers' development. But Perl is still my favourite language, the one I'm most productive with, and the one most of my FOSS code is written. I'm not alone as many experienced Perl programmers ended up taking jobs in other technologies so they'll have some change. On Freenode's #perl , we often get people asking us on help how to learn Perl, or how to fix a Perl script[1] - some of them are young and some of them even know PHP, Python, etc. We don't have many people looking for Perl hackers to hire, but I was sometimes told it's a bit prevalent in irc.perl.org's #perl. Perhaps a site for employers looking to hire Perl programmers would be good as well as sites for helping people learn Perl. {{ [1] - the Frenode channel's policy is that if someone wants us to help him with his Perl code, he should either learn Perl himself (at least enough to understand and be able to tweak the code.), or pay someone to do his work for him. Sometimes people who come to the channel feel it's unfair, but one should realise that even in the FOSS world, there aren't any free lunches. }} One thing I noticed is that many people who frequent #perl6 (including some Perl "big-names") don't frequeny #perl. This is naturally expected because they often don't care about the chat and random Q&A that we have on #perl, but I still feel we could use a more active endoresement of the Perl "leadership". I think I'll stop now as I feel this is just a braindump. I'm sorry that this message was so long, but like Blaise Pascal, I didn't have time to write a shorter one. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 08:58:17 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Registration open for NPW 2008 Message-ID: <200804150858.17356.ewilhelm@cpan.org> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: [pm_groups] Registration open for NPW 2008 Date: Tuesday 15 April 2008 00:55 From: Claes Jakobsson ---- The website for Nordic Perl Workshop 2008 is now online and registration is open at http://conferences.yapceurope.org/npw2008/ Workshop fee is 500 SEK (~ 55 EUR) or 250 SEK (~ 28 EUR) if you're a student. And as usual speakers (not lightning talks) are exempted from the fee. Talk proposals can be done online and should be in no later than May 2nd. So visit now and register for the workshop! See you in Stockholm, Claes Jakobsson on behalf of the Nordic Perl Workshop 2008 organization team. -- http://pdx.pm.org From selenamarie at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 10:51:44 2008 From: selenamarie at gmail.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:51:44 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Barcamp sponsorship Message-ID: <2b5e566d0804151051p7090be50tf46cd0bd97ef9909@mail.gmail.com> I mentioned it during the meeting last week, but we're having Portland BarCamp on May 2-4, 2008. Get updates on the latest at: http://www.barcamp.org/BarCampPortland We're also running short on sponsorships for food, tshirts and conference badges. If you, or someone you know, is interested in sponsoring this year -- please contact me for details!! -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Apr 15 15:57:29 2008 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:57:29 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] bioperl Message-ID: Hi, A very active area of utilization of perl is in bioinformatics. Here's one example: http://ensembl.blogspot.com/2008/04/high-dimensions-hetreogenity- statistics.html cheers, Tom MMI Shared Resource Facility 4-2442 kellert at ohsu.edu BSc 6339b -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080415/7c7489c6/attachment.html From scott+pdx.pm at konobi.co.uk Wed Apr 16 22:48:47 2008 From: scott+pdx.pm at konobi.co.uk (Scott McWhirter) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! Message-ID: Hey all, It appears that I'll be hitting up Portland next week for a few days, so if anyone would like to give a tour of some of your fine local microbrews, please drop me a line. Ta! -- -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- From jshirley at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 07:39:15 2008 From: jshirley at gmail.com (J. Shirley) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:39:15 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Scott McWhirter wrote: > Hey all, > > It appears that I'll be hitting up Portland next week for a few days, > so if anyone would like to give a tour of some of your fine local > microbrews, please drop me a line. > > Ta! > > > -- > -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- Count me in! From randall at sonofhans.net Thu Apr 17 08:37:28 2008 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:37:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] segfault: Carp::Heavy's fault? Message-ID: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> hi folks ~ i have a segfault; i think it's related to Carp. in the test file: throws_ok{ $one->process_remittance_advice } qr/required/; that gives me this: # found: Modification of a read-only value attempted at /opt/local/lib/ perl5/5.8.8/Carp/Heavy.pm line 51. and a couple lines later it segfaults. the segfault is in vanilla perl, between the time sub A `return`s a value and Sub B sees it. if i replace "throws_ok" with "eval" the segfault does not occur. i've googled this and not found much; it seems rare, but people have been talking about it since at least 2004. i haven't narrowed it down to the simplest repeatable case yet. has anyone else seen this? any ideas? tia, r ---- i'm running leopard, with MacPort's perl: 08:27 banana-9000 |> port installed | ack perl mod_perl2 @2.0.3_0 (active) perl5.8 @5.8.8_2 (active) vim @7.1.270_0+perl (active) 08:28 banana-9000 |> perl -v This is perl, v5.8.8 built for darwin-2level Carp::Heavy is the same version as Carp, which is 1.04. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 08:52:10 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:52:10 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] segfault: Carp::Heavy's fault? In-Reply-To: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> References: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> Message-ID: <200804170852.10540.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Randall Hansen # on Thursday 17 April 2008 08:37: ># found: Modification of a read-only value attempted at > /opt/local/lib/ perl5/5.8.8/Carp/Heavy.pm line 51. My Carp::Heavy (debian etch, perl 5.8.8, Carp 1.04) has a comment at line 51. --Eric -- "...the bourgeoisie were hated from both ends: by the proles, because they had all the money, and by the intelligentsia, because of their tendency to spend it on lawn ornaments." --Neal Stephenson --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From randall at sonofhans.net Thu Apr 17 09:23:09 2008 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:23:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] segfault: Carp::Heavy's fault? In-Reply-To: <200804170852.10540.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> <200804170852.10540.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > My Carp::Heavy (debian etch, perl 5.8.8, Carp 1.04) has a comment at > line 51. ah, good point. here's the entire routine, with line numbers: 43 # Transform an argument to a function into a string. 44 sub format_arg { 45 my $arg = shift; 46 if (ref($arg)) { 47 $arg = defined($overload::VERSION) ? overload::StrVal($arg) : "$arg"; 48 }elsif (not defined($arg)) { 49 $arg = 'undef'; 50 } 51 $arg =~ s/'/\\'/g; 52 $arg = str_len_trim($arg, $MaxArgLen); 53 54 # Quote it? 55 $arg = "'$arg'" unless $arg =~ /^-?[\d.]+\z/; 56 57 # The following handling of "control chars" is direct from 58 # the original code - it is broken on Unicode though. 59 # Suggestions? 60 utf8::is_utf8($arg) 61 or $arg =~ s/([[:cntrl:]]|[[:^ascii:]])/sprintf("\ \x{%x}",ord($1))/eg; 62 return $arg; 63 } r From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 10:29:50 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:29:50 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] segfault: Carp::Heavy's fault? In-Reply-To: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> References: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> Message-ID: <200804171029.50594.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Randall Hansen # on Thursday 17 April 2008 08:37: >? ? ?throws_ok{ $one->process_remittance_advice } qr/required/; Can you replicate this with some standalone code? It sounds like process_remittance_advice() is calling croak(), possibly with an object and then... ># found: Modification of a read-only value attempted at > /opt/local/lib/ perl5/5.8.8/Carp/Heavy.pm line 51. We land in format_arg() presumably from caller_info(), where there is a map() involving @DB::args. >and a couple lines later it segfaults. ?the segfault is in vanilla ? >perl, between the time sub A `return`s a value and Sub B sees it. A couple of lines later in Carp::Heavy, or in the test file? >if i replace "throws_ok" with "eval" the segfault does not occur. I suspect it is something with Carp trying to acquire the arguments in the call stack. An eval {} has a different call stack than a "sub foo (&) {...}". The block (aka subref) is being passed into Test::Exception's functions, where it gets eval'd inside of (I think) _try_as_caller(), and that involves Sub::Uplevel, which is doing some fun stuff with *CORE::GLOBAL::caller. If you write your own sub, does it still segfault? If not, it probably involves uplevel. sub my_eval (&) { my $sub = shift; eval {$sub->()}; } my_eval { $one->process_remittance_advice }; --Eric -- So malloc calls a timeout and starts rummaging around the free chain, sorting things out, and merging adjacent small free blocks into larger blocks. This takes 3 1/2 days. --Joel Spolsky --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From jshirley at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 10:29:27 2008 From: jshirley at gmail.com (J. Shirley) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:29:27 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 AM, J. Shirley wrote: > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Scott McWhirter > wrote: > > Hey all, > > > > It appears that I'll be hitting up Portland next week for a few days, > > so if anyone would like to give a tour of some of your fine local > > microbrews, please drop me a line. > > > > Ta! > > > > > > -- > > -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- > > Count me in! > Nobody else? How about a casual geek outing to one of the microbrews? We can make Eric talk about FileFu! To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max Line. Any suggestions? I don't make it into downtown frequent enough to know the breweries, and tend to just go to Rock Bottom if I take the max. Henry's has a good selection of beers, but not a local brewery. Alternatively there is always the Lucky Lab, or we can hit up a McMenamin's somewhere. From michael at jamhome.us Sun Apr 20 11:00:46 2008 From: michael at jamhome.us (Michael Rasmussen) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:00:46 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080420180046.GE27623@jamhome.us> On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:29:27AM -0700, J. Shirley wrote: > To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max Line. > Any suggestions? Widmer is on the Interstate Max line. Bridgeport is on the trolley line. > I don't make it into downtown frequent enough to > know the breweries, and tend to just go to Rock Bottom if I take the > max. Henry's has a good selection of beers, but not a local brewery. Jax has a rotating 5 tap selection of micros that usually includes Terminal Gravity and a Hales. The Green Dragon, a couple blocks south of Belmont on 9th, has an great selection of micros. For that matter a pub crawl of Roots, Lucky Lab, Green Dragon and Basement Pub would feature easy walks from site to site and a good variety of beers. -- Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity The fortune cookie says: Time to be aggressive. Go after a tattooed Virgo. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 11:13:05 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:13:05 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from J. Shirley # on Sunday 20 April 2008 10:29: >Nobody else? ?How about a casual geek outing to one of the microbrews? >?We can make Eric talk about FileFu! Sure. Who is picking the day? Scott - what days are you here? >To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max Line. +1. We should maybe shoot for something handy to the area in which Scott is staying. Also note: #pdx.pm on irc.perl.org --Eric -- The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30 shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64. --Don Lancaster (1991) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scott+pdx.pm at konobi.co.uk Sun Apr 20 11:23:39 2008 From: scott+pdx.pm at konobi.co.uk (Scott McWhirter) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:23:39 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the week. Not got many plans so any time is good =0) -- -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from J. Shirley > # on Sunday 20 April 2008 10:29: > > > >Nobody else? How about a casual geek outing to one of the microbrews? > > We can make Eric talk about FileFu! > > Sure. Who is picking the day? Scott - what days are you here? > > > >To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max Line. > > +1. > > We should maybe shoot for something handy to the area in which Scott is > staying. > > Also note: #pdx.pm on irc.perl.org > > --Eric > -- > The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30 > shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64. > --Don Lancaster (1991) > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From jshirley at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 16:41:27 2008 From: jshirley at gmail.com (J. Shirley) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:41:27 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <756703690804201641g783d9bbarab994864ed65cfff@mail.gmail.com> I'm free every night except Tuesday. Monday and Wednesday are equally good for me. Michael's posting of the bar crawl sounds very good to me. I'm excited as quite a few of the pubs listed are ones I've wanted to visit and haven't yet. On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Scott McWhirter wrote: > I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the week. > > Not got many plans so any time is good =0) > > > -- > -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- > > > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Eric Wilhelm > wrote: > > # from J. Shirley > > # on Sunday 20 April 2008 10:29: > > > > > > >Nobody else? How about a casual geek outing to one of the microbrews? > > > We can make Eric talk about FileFu! > > > > Sure. Who is picking the day? Scott - what days are you here? > > > > > > >To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max Line. > > > > +1. > > > > We should maybe shoot for something handy to the area in which Scott is > > staying. > > > > Also note: #pdx.pm on irc.perl.org > > > > --Eric > > -- > > The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30 > > shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64. > > --Don Lancaster (1991) > > --------------------------------------------------- > > http://scratchcomputing.com > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From joshua at keroes.com Sun Apr 20 16:53:38 2008 From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:53:38 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <756703690804201641g783d9bbarab994864ed65cfff@mail.gmail.com> References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <756703690804201641g783d9bbarab994864ed65cfff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If you do that pub crawl and finish at the Basement Pub, well, consider spending an hour there and heading one block north to A Roadside Attraction. They only have three taps but they're good. And the place is utterly fascinating. And it has Wifi. And the courtyard is conducive to talking if you can score a bigger table. On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, J. Shirley wrote: > I'm free every night except Tuesday. Monday and Wednesday are equally > good for me. > > Michael's posting of the bar crawl sounds very good to me. I'm > excited as quite a few of the pubs listed are ones I've wanted to > visit and haven't yet. > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Scott McWhirter > > wrote: > > I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the week. > > > > Not got many plans so any time is good =0) > > > > > > -- > > -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Eric Wilhelm > > wrote: > > > # from J. Shirley > > > # on Sunday 20 April 2008 10:29: > > > > > > > > > >Nobody else? How about a casual geek outing to one of the > microbrews? > > > > We can make Eric talk about FileFu! > > > > > > Sure. Who is picking the day? Scott - what days are you here? > > > > > > > > > >To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max > Line. > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > We should maybe shoot for something handy to the area in which Scott > is > > > staying. > > > > > > Also note: #pdx.pm on irc.perl.org > > > > > > --Eric > > > -- > > > The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new > $30 > > > shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64. > > > --Don Lancaster (1991) > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > http://scratchcomputing.com > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080420/0f056cdc/attachment.html From selenamarie at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 17:03:27 2008 From: selenamarie at gmail.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:03:27 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <756703690804201641g783d9bbarab994864ed65cfff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5e566d0804201703o7f8e6bdeg637ef34e2c3fab32@mail.gmail.com> thumbs up on the Basement Pub!! And Roadside Attraction. :) On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote: > If you do that pub crawl and finish at the Basement Pub, well, consider > spending an hour there and heading one block north to A Roadside Attraction. > They only have three taps but they're good. And the place is utterly > fascinating. And it has Wifi. And the courtyard is conducive to talking if > you can score a bigger table. > > > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, J. Shirley wrote: > > I'm free every night except Tuesday. Monday and Wednesday are equally > > good for me. > > > > Michael's posting of the bar crawl sounds very good to me. I'm > > excited as quite a few of the pubs listed are ones I've wanted to > > visit and haven't yet. > > > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Scott McWhirter > > wrote: > > > I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the week. > > > > > > Not got many plans so any time is good =0) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -Scott McWhirter- | -konobi- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Eric Wilhelm > > > wrote: > > > > # from J. Shirley > > > > # on Sunday 20 April 2008 10:29: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nobody else? How about a casual geek outing to one of the > microbrews? > > > > > We can make Eric talk about FileFu! > > > > > > > > Sure. Who is picking the day? Scott - what days are you here? > > > > > > > > > > > > >To make it easy, lets pick one that is reasonably close to a Max > Line. > > > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > > > We should maybe shoot for something handy to the area in which Scott > is > > > > staying. > > > > > > > > Also note: #pdx.pm on irc.perl.org > > > > > > > > --Eric > > > > -- > > > > The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new > $30 > > > > shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64. > > > > --Don Lancaster (1991) > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > http://scratchcomputing.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily From schwern at pobox.com Mon Apr 21 11:31:40 2008 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: References: <756703690804170739y22a16aafi2e89f139fab8d321@mail.gmail.com> <756703690804201029r566e01dci36e19467dc430a41@mail.gmail.com> <200804201113.06224.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> Scott McWhirter wrote: > I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the week. > > Not got many plans so any time is good =0) Count me in on whatever gets decided. Was something decided? -- 52. Not allowed to yell ?Take that Cobra? at the rifle range. -- The 213 Things Skippy Is No Longer Allowed To Do In The U.S. Army http://skippyslist.com/list/ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 14:26:22 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:26:22 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Visiting! In-Reply-To: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> References: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200804211426.22550.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Michael G Schwern # on Monday 21 April 2008 11:31: >> I'll be in portland/vancouver tonight onto towards the end of the >> week. >> >> Not got many plans so any time is good =0) > >Count me in on whatever gets decided. ?Was something decided? Wednesday was decided! Yay. We need to map the starting point and such still... --Eric -- "If you dig it, it's yours." --An old village poet (via Al Pacino) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 16:18:17 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:18:17 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] emergency social on Wednesday night In-Reply-To: <200804211426.22550.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> <200804211426.22550.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200804211618.17502.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Eric Wilhelm # on Monday 21 April 2008 14:26: >Wednesday was decided! ?Yay. > >We need to map the starting point and such still... 6:00(ish) at the Lucky lab. I don't know where we're going from there when, so if you miss us, I guess try the irc channel and/or my cell. --Eric -- To a database person, every nail looks like a thumb. --Jamie Zawinski --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From joshua at keroes.com Mon Apr 21 17:32:03 2008 From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:32:03 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] emergency social on Wednesday night In-Reply-To: <200804211618.17502.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> <200804211426.22550.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200804211618.17502.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: I can't make it until later. Who's on twitter that I can follow? On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Eric Wilhelm > # on Monday 21 April 2008 14:26: > > >Wednesday was decided! Yay. > > > >We need to map the starting point and such still... > > 6:00(ish) at the Lucky lab. I don't know where we're going from there > when, so if you miss us, I guess try the irc channel and/or my cell. > > --Eric > -- > To a database person, every nail looks like a thumb. > --Jamie Zawinski > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080421/08421d76/attachment.html From randall at sonofhans.net Tue Apr 22 13:25:53 2008 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:25:53 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] segfault: Carp::Heavy's fault? In-Reply-To: <200804171029.50594.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <0AD16423-E22F-459E-8FAC-BCD2AD94F99E@sonofhans.net> <200804171029.50594.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > If you write your own sub, does it still segfault? If not, it > probably involves uplevel. > > sub my_eval (&) { > my $sub = shift; > eval {$sub->()}; > } > my_eval { $one->process_remittance_advice }; ooh, that's a nice test. thanks! as you suspected, it works fine. i still don't know why this is happening (been digging around in Test::Exception, Sub::Uplevel, etc). what i did find is an apparent solution: removing the custom die handler in the parent Test object: $SIG{__DIE__} = sub { confess @_ }; r From schwern at pobox.com Wed Apr 23 12:22:48 2008 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:22:48 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] emergency social on Wednesday night In-Reply-To: References: <480CDD8C.9010205@pobox.com> <200804211426.22550.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200804211618.17502.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <480F8C88.1040701@pobox.com> Joshua Keroes wrote: > I can't make it until later. Who's on twitter that I can follow? I'll twitter the progress of the crawl. -- Being faith-based doesn't trump reality. -- Bruce Sterling From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 16:13:35 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:13:35 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt Message-ID: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Hi all, The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) Back: " Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README To install this shirt, execute the following steps: 1. Place arms in arm holes. 2. Insert head through neck hole. This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer should be made in all derived shirts. This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants named COPYING for more details. To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" The latest version of this shirt is always available at http://pdx.pm.org/. " I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on black. Short-sleeved. Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? --Eric -- If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, please send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From xrdawson at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 16:15:28 2008 From: xrdawson at gmail.com (Chris Dawson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:15:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <659b9ea30804291615q65c38454ta042a210e6d91e19@mail.gmail.com> Hilarious. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Hi all, > > The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: > > Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) > Back: " > Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README > > To install this shirt, execute the following steps: > > 1. Place arms in arm holes. > 2. Insert head through neck hole. > > This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically > modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable > form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains > all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer > should be made in all derived shirts. > > This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants > named COPYING for more details. > > To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around > screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" > > The latest version of this shirt is always available at > http://pdx.pm.org/. > " > > I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on black. > Short-sleeved. > > Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? > > --Eric > -- > If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, please > send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20080429/af5db87f/attachment.html From ben.hengst at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 16:29:03 2008 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0804291629ka05f868n1e2a5aa91f3844a9@mail.gmail.com> Ha that's hilarious. I'll take 2. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Hi all, > > The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: > > Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) > Back: " > Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README > > To install this shirt, execute the following steps: > > 1. Place arms in arm holes. > 2. Insert head through neck hole. > > This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically > modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable > form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains > all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer > should be made in all derived shirts. > > This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants > named COPYING for more details. > > To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around > screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" > > The latest version of this shirt is always available at > http://pdx.pm.org/. > " > > I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on black. > Short-sleeved. > > Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? > > --Eric > -- > If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, please > send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 02:32:25 2008 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <801868.16403.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> That's frickin' awesome. How do I get my grubby little hands on a couple of those? Cheers, Ovid --- Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Hi all, > > The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: > > Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) > Back: " > Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README > > To install this shirt, execute the following steps: > > 1. Place arms in arm holes. > 2. Insert head through neck hole. > > This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically > modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable > form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains > all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer > should be made in all derived shirts. > > This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants > named COPYING for more details. > > To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around > screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" > > The latest version of this shirt is always available at > http://pdx.pm.org/. > " > > I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on > black. > Short-sleeved. > > Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? > > --Eric > -- > If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, > please > send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Perl and CGI - http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ Personal blog - http://publius-ovidius.livejournal.com/ Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ From ben.hengst at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 07:35:42 2008 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: <801868.16403.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <801868.16403.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0804300735u6fa3d4b1oc1e3c89503f18bc3@mail.gmail.com> The more that I think about it we might want to wording so that the print is not all tiny letters that fall apart after two washings... but I cant find any bits to trim away. On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Ovid wrote: > That's frickin' awesome. How do I get my grubby little hands on a > couple of those? > > Cheers, > Ovid > > > --- Eric Wilhelm wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: > > > > Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) > > Back: " > > Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README > > > > To install this shirt, execute the following steps: > > > > 1. Place arms in arm holes. > > 2. Insert head through neck hole. > > > > This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically > > modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable > > form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains > > all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer > > should be made in all derived shirts. > > > > This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > > WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants > > named COPYING for more details. > > > > To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around > > screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" > > > > The latest version of this shirt is always available at > > http://pdx.pm.org/. > > " > > > > I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on > > black. > > Short-sleeved. > > > > Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? > > > > --Eric > > -- > > If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, > > please > > send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > http://scratchcomputing.com > > --------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > -- > Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ > Perl and CGI - http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ > Personal blog - http://publius-ovidius.livejournal.com/ > Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From selenamarie at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 07:46:18 2008 From: selenamarie at gmail.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:46:18 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0804300735u6fa3d4b1oc1e3c89503f18bc3@mail.gmail.com> References: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <801868.16403.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <85ddf48b0804300735u6fa3d4b1oc1e3c89503f18bc3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5e566d0804300746j71c907d4x6effe30a3a9fdb01@mail.gmail.com> When we're ready to print shirts, pls get in touch. I may have a vendor that can do a better job with the tiny printing. Or they can maybe suggest a print method that would make it last longer. -selena On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 7:35 AM, benh wrote: > The more that I think about it we might want to wording so that the > print is not all tiny letters that fall apart after two washings... > but I cant find any bits to trim away. > > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Ovid wrote: > > That's frickin' awesome. How do I get my grubby little hands on a > > couple of those? > > > > Cheers, > > Ovid > > > > > > --- Eric Wilhelm wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > The following is my suggestion for the 2008 pdx.pm shirt: > > > > > > Front: "README" (about 3"x8", centered on chest) > > > Back: " > > > Portland Perl Mongers t-shirt Version 2.008 README > > > > > > To install this shirt, execute the following steps: > > > > > > 1. Place arms in arm holes. > > > 2. Insert head through neck hole. > > > > > > This t-shirt is open source softwear. You may physically > > > modify this shirt and/or redistribute it in machine-washable > > > form under the same terms as Perl itself. The wearer retains > > > all rights to this textile. Attribution to the original wearer > > > should be made in all derived shirts. > > > > > > This t-shirt is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > > > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > > > WASHABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. See the pants > > > named COPYING for more details. > > > > > > To report bugs in this shirt, flail your arms and jump around > > > screaming "HEY THERE ARE BUGS IN MY SHIRT!" > > > > > > The latest version of this shirt is always available at > > > http://pdx.pm.org/. > > > " > > > > > > I'm thinking perhaps black on grey or white. Possibly white on > > > black. > > > Short-sleeved. > > > > > > Suggestions? Comments? Alternatives? > > > > > > --Eric > > > -- > > > If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, > > > please > > > send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > http://scratchcomputing.com > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > > > > > -- > > Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ > > Perl and CGI - http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ > > Personal blog - http://publius-ovidius.livejournal.com/ > > Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > > -- > benh~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 09:45:12 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:45:12 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] 2008 shirt In-Reply-To: References: <200804291613.35192.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200804300945.12292.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from David E. Wheeler # on Wednesday 30 April 2008: >About 80% of my t-shirts are black, white, or grey. How about a little > ? color? Hmm, color... The nice thing about choosing between black and white is you only have a 50% chance of being wrong - with color it is infinite :-D We'll probably be discussing it at the next meeting. --Eric -- We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals. --Quarry worker's creed --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 16:46:53 2008 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:46:53 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] IMAP -- May meeting in 2 weeks Message-ID: <200804301646.53953.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Wed. May 14th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. Speaker: Wil Cooley Topic: IMAP: everything you ever wanted to do with mail except send it In the open standards world, centralized remote mail stores are usually reached through the magic of IMAP, the Internet Mail Access Protocol. The convenience of using common tools like grep and procmail, however, is lost when relocating one's mail from a local, Berkeley-style mailbox to an IMAP server. With a little scripting (and the right IMAP server), these conveniences can be regained. Wil will present an overview of IMAP covering the following topics: o Anatomy of an IMAP server o On the Wire: The protocol itself o Sieve, a special-purpose scripting language for mail filtering o Scripting on-line mail processing with Perl -- http://pdx.pm.org