From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 06:06:59 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 06:06:59 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] O'Reilly UG Program Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <200705312203.33441.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200705312203.33441.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0706010606u16579fc8t1f0b5b292c21ef44@mail.gmail.com>

Mastering Perl was on there:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527242/

I wouldn't mind writing something up on it.


On 5/31/07, The Dread Parrot <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like bash cookbook, restful web services, and a whole pile of ruby
> books.  I guess everything that ever needed to be said about Perl has
> already been written.
>
>   http://www.oreillynet.com/oreilly/ug/newsletter.csp
>
> Anyway, remember you can request a review copy and there are pdf's.
>
> --Eric
> --
>
>         http://pdx.pm.org
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 11:46:25 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:46:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] O'Reilly UG Program Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0706010606u16579fc8t1f0b5b292c21ef44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200705312203.33441.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<85ddf48b0706010606u16579fc8t1f0b5b292c21ef44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706011146.26273.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from benh
# on Friday 01 June 2007 06:06 am:

>On 5/31/07, The Dread Parrot <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>I guess everything that ever needed to be said about
>> Perl has already been written.
>   http://www.oreillynet.com/oreilly/ug/newsletter.csp

>Mastering Perl was on there:
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527242/

I stand corrected.  Must not have been operating my browser correctly.  
Lesson:  should have used LWP.

--Eric
-- 
Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory
almost as soon as you feel it.
--Paul Graham
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From wickman at halfangle.com  Fri Jun  1 13:13:15 2007
From: wickman at halfangle.com (Stephen Wickman)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:13:15 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] $dbh->{LongReadLen}
In-Reply-To: <465F5B9D.8070302@vpservices.com>
References: <465F2860.7020900@halfangle.com> <465F5B9D.8070302@vpservices.com>
Message-ID: <46607DDB.9020607@halfangle.com>

Setting a static value of $dbh->{LongReadLen}=2000000000 sends perl to a dark place so I have to drop it to max needed. Turns out I accidentally placed the dynamic allocation within the fetch loop so I'm not sure what size was actually in play per fetch. Setting the size needed per statement before the prepare did the trick.

[FROM] Jeff Zucker [DATE] 2007-05-31 04:34 P:
> $dbh->{LongReadLen} = 2000000001; ? :-)
> 
> Stephen Wickman wrote:
>> Anyone know the fuzzy math to capture the data in long varchar
>> 2000000000 column?
>> Setting $dbh->{LongReadLen} = $dbh->selectrow_array(qq(select
>> length(col) from tbl)) doesn't quite suffice. Per "Programming the
>> DBI", there is some addl overhead, but I'd prefer numbers in lieu of
>> "slightly more than the length of the longest column".
>> --thx, Steve
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
>> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>>
>>
>>   
> 
> 

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 02:04:02 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 02:04:02 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] too late to run INIT (Class::Trait)
In-Reply-To: <855013.82216.qm@web60818.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <855013.82216.qm@web60818.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200706030204.02855.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

Is there any reliable way to tell if it is "Too late to run INIT"?  All 
I can think of is $^S, but that doesn't seem to be any use.  The 
warning appears to come from op.c, but AFAICT it is playing with some 
"do not touch" bits.

We could all do the local $SIG{__WARN__} dance, but I'm thinking there 
has to be a better way for Class::Trait to make the compile-time 
checking optional.  There's "no warnings 'void'", but it wouldn't be 
able to be conditional.  Can't put the $SIG{__WARN__} in Class::Trait 
because local won't work there.

Could put just the INIT block in Class::Trait::Strict, but that wouldn't 
default to compile-time checking the integrity (though it could maybe 
be made to die (thus being actually strict) but now we're back to the 
same question of whether or not compile-time is done.)

hmm...

  BEGIN {
      our $shutup;
      local $SIG{__WARN__} = sub {
          warn "we had a warning @_\n";
      };
      require Class::Trait::Init unless($shutup);
  }
  sub _do_init {
      initialize() if scalar keys %TRAITS_TO_CHECK;
  }

  # Class::Trait::Strict
  use warnings;
  use strict;
  INIT {
      Class::Trait::_do_init();
  }
  1;

...
  $ perl -e '$Class::Trait::shutup = 1;
  require Class::Trait; print "yay\n"'
  yay
  $ perl -e 'require Class::Trait;'
  we had a warning Too late to run INIT block at Class/Trait/Init.pm
  line 5.

So, we can catch the warning and use qr/^Too late to run INIT/ as a 
flag, possibly then using Class::Trait::Strict::import() (or caller()) 
as an indicator of whether strict trait-checking was explicitly 
requested (thus making runtime use of a trait-bearing class an optional 
fatal error (for the real sticklers))  but still be able to set the 
no-noise variable.  Err, probably just be quiet by default and die if 
anyone explicitly requested that we *must* do compile-time checks.  
OTOH, could we just do the init bit when the SIG{__WARN__} fires?  :-D

Thoughts?   e.g. we have to re-juggle the $SIG{__WARN__} in case some 
warning happens during the _do_init() :-/

Thanks,
Eric

# from Ovid
# on Thursday 31 May 2007 08:57 am:

>You mentioned that you don't use Class::Trait due to the "too late to
> run INIT" warning. ?It's an unfortunate problem, but it's one which
> is virtually impossible to avoid due to the way that Perl works.
> ?Unfortunately, due to the nature of traits, moving it into
> Class::Trait::Strict isn't an option (the compile-time safety is
> something I need to guarantee). ?However, I have the following
> snippet of code in my Test::Class base class and it should give you
> an idea of one way to deal with the problem:
>
>? sub startup : Test(startup) {
>? ? ? my $test = shift;
>
>? ? ? # If there are any tests in this class using the db, set it up:
>? ? ? if($test->_pkg_has_attribute('DB')) {
>? ? ? ? ? $test->_database( TEST::Database->new );
>? ? ? }
>
>? ? ? {
>? ? ? ? ? my $using_traits = 0;
>
>? ? ? ? ? # Because of how traits work, they need to be loaded at
> compile time # or else their integrity checks fail. ?This skips their
> warning and # runs the integrity checks manually if traits are used.
> local $SIG{__WARN__} = sub {
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? my $warning = shift;
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? if ( $warning =~ /Too late to run INIT
> block.*Class\/Trait.pm/ ) { $using_traits = 1;
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? return;
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? }
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? CORE::warn($warning);
>? ? ? ? ? };
>? ? ? ? ? my $class = $test->_class;
>? ? ? ? ? $class->require or $test->FAIL_ALL("Could not require
> $class: $@"); Class::Trait->initialize if $using_traits;
>? ? ? }
>? }
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com>
>To: Ovid <curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:16:10 PM
>Subject: Class::Trait INIT thingy
>
>Hi Ovid,
>
>I have to admit that I ended up not using traits mainly because of the
>"too late to run INIT" warning. ?I know it's a nit, but it makes my
>"silence" tests fail :-( ?So, I'm using the *idea* of traits, but
> doing it with Exporter.
>
>The unfortunate thing about INIT is that once you mention it, there is
>no way to ignore it.
>
>I wonder if it would be better to put just that INIT block in
>Class::Trait::Strict or something?

-- 
Turns out the optimal technique is to put it in reverse and gun it.
--Steven Squyres (on challenges in interplanetary robot navigation)
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 10:01:49 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:01:49 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] =?iso-8859-1?q?perlcast=2Ecom_=BB_Interview_with_Ovid_on?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?_TAP?=
Message-ID: <200706031001.50122.ewilhelm@cpan.org>


http://perlcast.com/2007/06/03/interview-with-curtis-ovid-poe-on-perl-testing/

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Jun  6 09:27:06 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:27:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] semiautomatic module downloader
Message-ID: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com>


One of the "pleasures" of running many Perl applications and modules
are the repeated trips to CPAN to acquire the needed dependencies. 

Is there some method that simplifies the process?  I was thinking 
a scanner that looks at the Perl app at either download or runtime,
finds the modules that aren't already downloaded, and generates a
script that can be run afterwards that interactively downloads the
new modules from CPAN.  

Or is heading for CPAN one of life's joys for most, and I am foolishly
demonstrating my lack of enlightenment?

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Jun  6 09:42:13 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:42:13 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] semiautomatic module downloader
In-Reply-To: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com> (Keith Lofstrom's message
	of "Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:27:06 -0700")
References: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <866461m3ve.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> writes:

Keith> Is there some method that simplifies the process?  I was thinking 
Keith> a scanner that looks at the Perl app at either download or runtime,
Keith> finds the modules that aren't already downloaded, and generates a
Keith> script that can be run afterwards that interactively downloads the
Keith> new modules from CPAN.  

Yes, it's called "CPAN.pm" or "CPANPLUS.pm", and is smart enough to run a
Makefile.PL or Build.PL that is bundled with your properly created
installation's .tar.gz.  From there, the right CPAN modules are downloaded if
necessary, and your scripts, libs, and docs are installed according to local
policy.

Now, if the tool you want to install didn't get created properly and
includes a Makefile.PL/Build.PL, then shame on them.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 10:03:33 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:03:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] semiautomatic module downloader
In-Reply-To: <866461m3ve.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<866461m3ve.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <200706061003.33618.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Randal L. Schwartz
# on Wednesday 06 June 2007 09:42 am:

>Yes, it's called "CPAN.pm" or "CPANPLUS.pm", and is smart enough to
> run a Makefile.PL or Build.PL that is bundled with your properly
> created installation's .tar.gz. ?From there, the right CPAN modules
> are downloaded if necessary

Iff you're running the install starting from the CPAN(PLUS) shell.

What about installing a local tarball that doesn't live on CPAN? (or 
isn't there yet)  That is, how do you install from 
file:///tmp/Some-Dist.tar.gz without reconstructing a cpan mirror?

But, I think Keith is talking about an even less organized situation 
like some_random_script.pl which ships without any packaging.  In that 
case, Module::ScanDeps would probably be what you need.

--Eric
-- 
So malloc calls a timeout and starts rummaging around the free chain,
sorting things out, and merging adjacent small free blocks into larger
blocks. This takes 3 1/2 days.
--Joel Spolsky
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From andy at petdance.com  Wed Jun  6 10:13:41 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:13:41 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] semiautomatic module downloader
In-Reply-To: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070606162706.GB19144@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <6E04C071-AC4A-4B6D-845C-AD9F57E80B62@petdance.com>


On Jun 6, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> Or is heading for CPAN one of life's joys for most, and I am foolishly
> demonstrating my lack of enlightenment?

You want the CPAN shell.

$ perl -MCPAN -eshell

or

$ cpan

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 18:25:41 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 18:25:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New Speaker - Meeting next Wed June 13th
Message-ID: <200706071825.41554.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave.

speaker:  Jaap Karssenberg
topic:    Gtk-Perl + Zim (an "un-collaborative wiki")

  * an example program in Gtk,to demonstrate the basics
  * the freedesktop mime and application bindings
    (programming for the desktop (as opposed to the web))
  * a quick Zim demo
  * advanced Gtk slides at the end if everyone behaves themselves

Followed by beer at the Lucky Lab.

(Note:  gtk is the "gimp toolkit" GUI widget set/API (e.g. gimp, gnome, 
most gui programs starting with 'g', etc.))

(Also note:  freedesktop is an open standards initiative for things 
like .desktop files, thumbnails, and various other interoperability 
bits on linux (and anywhere else they can get away with it.))

(Also also note:  The originally scheduled talk "my first CPAN 
module(s)" has been rescheduled for July.)

--Eric
-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From mark at acerbate.org  Fri Jun  8 10:37:11 2007
From: mark at acerbate.org (Mark Harris)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 10:37:11 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Building DBD::mysql on Mac OS X
Message-ID: <F697D558-A8E3-4C91-B05D-B075C0F22558@acerbate.org>

I did a CPAN install DBD::mysql, and the install aborted because of  
multiple test failures.  I'd appreciate advise from anyone who has  
successfully installed this on a Mac OS X system.  (My version is  
10.4.9)

TIA,

Mark Harris
Tigard, OR

From Dan at edgelink.com  Fri Jun  8 10:56:56 2007
From: Dan at edgelink.com (Dan Iverson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 10:56:56 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] 3 Month Contract Opening in Downtown Portland
Message-ID: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812E9E5@server1.edgelink.local>

Hello,

 

My name is Dan Iverson and I am a recruiter with Edgelink, a technical
staffing firm in Portland.  I have a three month contract position that
I am recruiting for at this time.  I am looking for a Perl Programmer
with 2-3 years of experience in programming in Perl.  This individual
should also have experience with Linux and/or Free BSD.  This person
will be doing 100% new development on an existing project for one of our
clients located in the downtown area.  We are looking for someone to
start this position in the next week or two so they would have to be
available immediately and work must be done onsite working with a few
other team members.  If you are interested in this position please
contact me as soon as possible.  Thanks and I look forward to hearing
from you.  

 

Dan Iverson 
Technical Recruiter 
EdgeLink 
503-246-3989 ext 119 
503-246-4375 fax 
dan at edgelink.com 
www.edgelink.com 

 

 

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From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com  Fri Jun  8 11:19:08 2007
From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 11:19:08 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Building DBD::mysql on Mac OS X
In-Reply-To: <F697D558-A8E3-4C91-B05D-B075C0F22558@acerbate.org>
References: <F697D558-A8E3-4C91-B05D-B075C0F22558@acerbate.org>
Message-ID: <DED38B22-FEDE-4A6E-B1D5-C6D3876AA83D@chrisking.com>


Have a look here and see if that fixes your problem:

http://jayallen.org/journey/2006/04/dbd-mysql-build-problems-on-mac- 
book-pro

Hard to say without more information what your specific issue is, but  
it generally comes down to where your socket file is located, and  
then, perhaps, ignoring the test results.

-selena


On Jun 8, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Mark Harris wrote:

> I did a CPAN install DBD::mysql, and the install aborted because of
> multiple test failures.  I'd appreciate advise from anyone who has
> successfully installed this on a Mac OS X system.  (My version is
> 10.4.9)
>
> TIA,
>
> Mark Harris
> Tigard, OR
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

-- 
Selena Deckelmann
Information Systems Manager
Chris King Precision Components
Made in Portland, Oregon
www.chrisking.com / 503.972.4050 x230




From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 18:02:53 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 18:02:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] TPF boot at OSCON
Message-ID: <200706081802.54055.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] TPF boot at OSCON
Date: Friday 08 June 2007 10:55 am
From: "David H. Adler"

The Perl Foundation is looking for volunteers to man (or woman) our
booth at OSCON.

If any of your members are attending OSCON and would like to volunteer,
they can send an email to volunteer at perlfoundation.org.
-------------------------------------------------------

From nojunkster at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 19:32:04 2007
From: nojunkster at gmail.com (Noj)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:32:04 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfc61080706111932u3cc7fa33q9b29da6b87a65eb2@mail.gmail.com>

I've messed around with Perl for awhile, but I keep running into Perl
Module Hell.  I'll spend a few hours/days trying to figure out CPAN,
but it always seems less trouble to rewrite stuff from scratch than
find that initial foothold on the CPAN climbing wall.  Frustratingly,
all the material on it seems to take for granted that you already know
CPAN and/or how to customize a makefile.  I want to do things the
'right' way, but I can't find a path up.

I keep seeing the phrase (sarcastic?) 'an easy install from CPAN', but
when I tried running CPAN (most recently on a vanilla MacOS X Tiger),
typed something like 'install XML::Parser' at the 'cpan>' prompt, it
just keep saying things like 'depends on [some other module],
prepend?', then lots of stuff scrolls by, and it asks to prepend
another module, sometimes a newer version of the same packages, and
finally wraps it up with a 'install failed' after 5+ minutes of this.
Then I see some reference to using sudo, and warnings some packages
would clobber existing stuff in /usr/bin if there was a name conflict,
so change the default directory in the makefile, etc etc.  Seems
pretty dodgy.

Is there any reference page on how to just get something like
XML::Parser working on a vanilla MacOS X Tiger?  Can I get some advice
on how to learn CPAN without already knowing how to use CPAN?

Most immediately, I'm trying to open a UTF-8 XML file.  If I read it
using 'while (<>)', I get junk.  This is perl, v5.8.6 built for
darwin-thread-multi-2level.  Am I on the right track trying to use
XML::Parser?

Thanks in Advance.

Noj

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 12:00:59 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:00:59 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN (on mac)
In-Reply-To: <bfc61080706111932u3cc7fa33q9b29da6b87a65eb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<bfc61080706111932u3cc7fa33q9b29da6b87a65eb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706121200.59709.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Noj
# on Monday 11 June 2007 07:32 pm:

>Can I get some advice
>on how to learn CPAN without already knowing how to use CPAN?

I think the important fact is that the mac cpan is rather broken.  IIRC, 
it is configured to install into /usr/ instead of /usr/local, but that 
might also include "the mac perl is broken" in that they don't give you 
any @INC paths in /usr/local.

The important thing to know about CPAN is that it is a recursive 
installer.  If you're seeing "install failed" but the error isn't more 
obvious, try scrolling back through the output.  Also, take note of the 
prerequisite modules -- possibly installing them one at a time.  
Particularly in the XML::Parser case you're going to be dealing with 
some compiled modules and it's possible that the requisite binary 
libraries (.dylib or whatever) aren't on your system.  Do you have 
XML::Parser::Expat?  Try installing that first.

You might have to reconfigure cpan's settings ("o conf init") and 
"install Bundle::CPAN" is probably a good idea.

--Eric
-- 
"But as to modern architecture, let us drop it and let us take
modernistic out and shoot it at sunrise."
--F.L. Wright
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From me at donaldrichardson.net  Tue Jun 12 15:00:39 2007
From: me at donaldrichardson.net (Donald Richardson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:00:39 -0400
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Pdx-pm-list Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.37.1181674837.6739.pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
References: <mailman.37.1181674837.6739.pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Message-ID: <20070612220039.GA25952@donaldrichardson.net>

Noj.I don't know about Tiger, but whenever I get failure to install
XML::Parser it's because, for some reason unknown to me, it fails to compile
the Expat libs. I usually just do an apt-get (probably fink for you) for
lib-expat1 (I can't remember if you also need the lib-expat1-dev package).  

If I'm totally off-base with this, then you'll have to provide some
additional info.

Donny
> I've messed around with Perl for awhile, but I keep running into Perl
> Module Hell.  I'll spend a few hours/days trying to figure out CPAN,
> but it always seems less trouble to rewrite stuff from scratch than
> find that initial foothold on the CPAN climbing wall.  Frustratingly,
> all the material on it seems to take for granted that you already know
> CPAN and/or how to customize a makefile.  I want to do things the
> 'right' way, but I can't find a path up.
> 
> I keep seeing the phrase (sarcastic?) 'an easy install from CPAN', but
> when I tried running CPAN (most recently on a vanilla MacOS X Tiger),
> typed something like 'install XML::Parser' at the 'cpan>' prompt, it
> just keep saying things like 'depends on [some other module],
> prepend?', then lots of stuff scrolls by, and it asks to prepend
> another module, sometimes a newer version of the same packages, and
> finally wraps it up with a 'install failed' after 5+ minutes of this.
> Then I see some reference to using sudo, and warnings some packages
> would clobber existing stuff in /usr/bin if there was a name conflict,
> so change the default directory in the makefile, etc etc.  Seems
> pretty dodgy.
> 
> Is there any reference page on how to just get something like
> XML::Parser working on a vanilla MacOS X Tiger?  Can I get some advice
> on how to learn CPAN without already knowing how to use CPAN?
> 
> Most immediately, I'm trying to open a UTF-8 XML file.  If I read it
> using 'while (<>)', I get junk.  This is perl, v5.8.6 built for
> darwin-thread-multi-2level.  Am I on the right track trying to use
> XML::Parser?
> 
> Thanks in Advance.
> 
> Noj

From nojunkster at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 16:23:08 2007
From: nojunkster at gmail.com (Noj)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:23:08 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <31086b240706111958i50515c8fv425307176815040a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<bfc61080706111932u3cc7fa33q9b29da6b87a65eb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706111958i50515c8fv425307176815040a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfc61080706121623q5ae28e84pcfe55e6b764dff13@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, Developer Tools.  I'd heard of it re other things I wanted to try
on Mac, but couldn't find it on install DVD.  Did more googling and
found (on a non-apple site) that Developer Tools is spelled 'Xcode' on
the install DVD.  So Developer Tools are installed now...  As you
mentioned, I didn't have the 'make' command before installing DT
(whoops), but it is there now.

It's been a while since the last time I tried to get started on CPAN,
so I either forget or never saw the perlmodinstall manpage.  It seems
to have the trailhead for how to manually install modules and use the
cpan manager.  If I do something manually, and get into using the CPAN
package manager later, will it auto-detect the manually installed
stuff, or does it keep it's own running index of what it's been used
to install?

I don't want stuff to install to /usr/bin and possibly over-write OS X
stuff, how/when do I tell the CPAN app to put it somewhere else, and
get that new location in the execution path?  If that info is
somewhere on the path perlmodinstall manpage leads to, hopefully I'll
know it when I see it.  If anyone knows any big rocks in the path, or
a more concise 'here's how you do it on a mac', let me know.
Otherwise, I'll check in and post what I learned when I (hopefully)
figure it out.

For my immediate problem (almost solved without using modules): Anyone
know a perl one-liner to turn a plain UTF-8 file into a 'normal' ASCII
file that can be processed in perl without bringing a bunch of modules
into things?  Currently my workaround is to load the file (a Final Cut
Pro sequence, exported as XML) into the TextWrangler editor and then
'save as' 'Western (ISO latin 1)' encoding (with UNIX linebreaks).
This works fine for my purpose, but it seems like a silly manual step.
 At least Final Cut will re-import the modified XML, even though it's
not in UTF-8 anymore.

If nothing else, at least I have an awkward process working now, and
some breadcrumbs to follow for how to smooth things out in the future.
 Thanks!

-Noj

On 6/11/07, Tom Phoenix wrote:

> Say no more. Install the Developer Tools before you take another step.
> (Without those, do you even have make?) Although Mac OS X comes with
> perl, it's not ready for prime time without the Developer Tools.
>
> > just keep saying things like 'depends on [some other module],
> > prepend?', then lots of stuff scrolls by, and it asks to prepend
> > another module, sometimes a newer version of the same packages, and
> > finally wraps it up with a 'install failed' after 5+ minutes of this.
>
> Beyond that, is there anything in the perlmodinstall manpage that is
> giving you trouble?

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 18:52:20 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:52:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <bfc61080706121623q5ae28e84pcfe55e6b764dff13@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706111958i50515c8fv425307176815040a@mail.gmail.com>
	<bfc61080706121623q5ae28e84pcfe55e6b764dff13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Noj
# on Tuesday 12 June 2007 04:23 pm:

>I don't want stuff to install to /usr/bin and possibly over-write OS X
>stuff, how/when do I tell the CPAN app to put it somewhere else, and
>get that new location in the execution path? ?If that info is
>somewhere on the path perlmodinstall manpage leads to, hopefully I'll
>know it when I see it. ?If anyone knows any big rocks in the path, or
>a more concise 'here's how you do it on a mac', let me know.

couple of links I had lying around under the "macs are dumb" category:

  http://sial.org/howto/perl/life-with-cpan/macosx/
  http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003222.html

Note the bit where you lose your /usr/bin/head.  In addition to 
makepl_arg, I think you also need to configure buildpl_arg (or whatever 
that's called) to point to a /usr/local/bin path.

Or maybe you could switch it to a case-sensitive filesystem.

On a related note, anybody have some pointers about cross-compiling perl 
+ modules?  I'm thinking of moving to a purely linux+distcc build 
system and not finding much in the way of hints about what I'll be 
getting myself into (I'm also planning to install linux on the mac mini 
and run os-ecks virtualized on that if I can possibly get away with 
it ;-)

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From joshua at keroes.com  Tue Jun 12 19:33:42 2007
From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:33:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706111958i50515c8fv425307176815040a@mail.gmail.com>
	<bfc61080706121623q5ae28e84pcfe55e6b764dff13@mail.gmail.com>
	<200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <c67b68200706121933j4b6c22dco53816338340b1cea@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/12/07, Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> couple of links I had lying around under the "macs are dumb" category:
>
>   http://sial.org/howto/perl/life-with-cpan/macosx/
>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003222.html
>
> Note the bit where you lose your /usr/bin/head.  In addition to
> makepl_arg, I think you also need to configure buildpl_arg (or whatever
> that's called) to point to a /usr/local/bin path.
>
> Or maybe you could switch it to a case-sensitive filesystem.
>

You *could* use the Mac Case-Sensitive FS but then (apparently due to Adobe
*trying* to break things) you can't run Photoshop. Seriously, it requires a
case-insensitive FS. *bonk bonk bonk*


J
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From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jun 12 19:53:02 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:53:02 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706111958i50515c8fv425307176815040a@mail.gmail.com>
	<bfc61080706121623q5ae28e84pcfe55e6b764dff13@mail.gmail.com>
	<200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <466F5C0E.8040801@pobox.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Note the bit where you lose your /usr/bin/head.

FWIW LWP fixed that a while ago.

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 23:56:16 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:56:16 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Getting Started with CPAN
In-Reply-To: <c67b68200706121933j4b6c22dco53816338340b1cea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc61080706111921o5b4376a3g9c3a982dcaa878ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<200706121852.20803.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<c67b68200706121933j4b6c22dco53816338340b1cea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706122356.16633.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Joshua Keroes
# on Tuesday 12 June 2007 07:33 pm:

>You *could* use the Mac Case-Sensitive FS but then (apparently due to
> Adobe *trying* to break things) you can't run Photoshop. Seriously,
> it requires a case-insensitive FS. *bonk bonk bonk*

bonk.

I'll put that on the list of hates.  Right next to "choose a volume on 
which to install this software" ... "you idiot, you have to install it 
on the primary volume, so I'll ask you to choose again and you better 
get it right this time!"

bonk.

Thus the desire to install linux and run os x virtualized on top of 
that.  i.e. "As little interaction with the mac as possible."  The 
internets are telling me that's a no-go though.

Ditto for "cross-compiling perl+modules".  Ugh.  Cross-compiling is old 
hat (plus it's all x86 anyway so we're really only talking about 
"cross-linking") and perl is cross platform+interpreted, so "in theory" 
this should be a piece of cake, right?

--Eric
-- 
If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, please
send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 12:13:08 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:13:08 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Meeting Tonight
Message-ID: <200706131213.09292.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave.

speaker:  Jaap Karssenberg
topic:    Gtk-Perl + Zim (an "un-collaborative wiki")

  * an example program in Gtk,to demonstrate the basics
  * the freedesktop mime and application bindings
    (programming for the desktop (as opposed to the web))
  * a quick Zim demo
  * advanced Gtk slides at the end if everyone behaves themselves

Followed by beer at the Lucky Lab.

(Note:  gtk is the "gimp toolkit" GUI widget set/API (e.g. gimp, gnome, 
most gui programs starting with 'g', etc.))

(Also note:  freedesktop is an open standards initiative for things 
like .desktop files, thumbnails, and various other interoperability 
bits on linux (and anywhere else they can get away with it.))

--Eric
-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From Katie at edgelink.com  Wed Jun 13 14:08:07 2007
From: Katie at edgelink.com (Katie Parker)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:08:07 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Contract Opportunity
Message-ID: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>

Our client is seeking an energetic, self-motivated SW Engineer with
strong analytical skills to help with increasing business needs. The
project requires knowledge of SQL DB, TSQL, OOP (specifically .net C#)
Linux, and Perl Scripting for a contract opportunity in Hillsboro, OR. 

Daily Responsibilities: 
Responsible for gathering or analyzing user requirements, coming up with
solution. Your responsibilities will include but not be limited to: 
- Understand customer issues and provide solution in a timely manner 
- Using judgment in data analysis to develop and design solutions for
moderately complex processes according to specs, and performing unit and
integration testing 
- Planning and scheduling work to meet deadlines established by others
to ensure the completion of several related tasks 
- Develop web based application utilizating his/her SQL DB, TSQL and
.net C# knowledge/experience 
- Develop mail services utilizing his/her Perl script experience 

Necessary Skills (Must Have): 
- Windows 
- .net C# 
- SQL DB/Transactional SQL 
- Linux 
- Perl Scripting. 

If you are interested please e-mail a word format of your resume to
Katie at edgelink.com

 

Katie Parker

Technical Recruiter

EdgeLink, LLC

(503) 246-3989 x117

 

Blog with us! www.edgelink.com/blog <http://www.edgelink.com/blog> 

 

 

 

 

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From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Jun 13 15:11:02 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:11:02 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	(Katie Parker's message of "Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:08:07 -0700")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
Message-ID: <86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Katie" == Katie Parker <Katie at edgelink.com> writes:

Katie> Our client is seeking an energetic, self-motivated SW Engineer with
Katie> strong analytical skills to help with increasing business needs. The
Katie> project requires knowledge of SQL DB, TSQL, OOP (specifically .net C#)
Katie> Linux, and Perl Scripting for a contract opportunity in Hillsboro, OR. 

I feel a bit spammed by this.  Can we adopt a "principals only" (aka "no
recruiters") policy here?

I mean, it's one thing if Eric or Ovid says "hey, my company is hiring" (at
least, when ovid was in pdx), but it's entirely a different thing if a third
party who stands to make money if the deal is sold putting out the feelers
here.  That turns this into a commercial transaction, and I'd likely
unsubscribe from such a list.  I know, some of you say "no loss!", but let's
at least pretend that my participation in my hometown pm group is handy. :)

Also, consider that this recruiter isn't smart enough to distinguish a job
where Perl is a minor requirement from an actual Perl programmer job. I'd
also have felt a bit less spammed if that was the case.

Or, if I had met the recruiter.  Does Katie show up at meetings?  Is Katie
technical, or just a recruiter?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Wed Jun 13 15:24:00 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:24:00 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <92CBCD43-DC57-4CDB-A905-323D5DE4EDC1@scaldeferri.com>


On Jun 13, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "Katie" == Katie Parker <Katie at edgelink.com> writes:
>
> Katie> Our client is seeking an energetic, self-motivated SW  
> Engineer with
> Katie> strong analytical skills to help with increasing business  
> needs. The
> Katie> project requires knowledge of SQL DB, TSQL, OOP  
> (specifically .net C#)
> Katie> Linux, and Perl Scripting for a contract opportunity in  
> Hillsboro, OR.
>
> I feel a bit spammed by this.  Can we adopt a "principals  
> only" (aka "no
> recruiters") policy here?

If we're voting, I'd also like "principals only", and "mostly Perl"  
in our job posting policy.


-kevin

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Jun 13 15:30:14 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:30:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <92CBCD43-DC57-4CDB-A905-323D5DE4EDC1@scaldeferri.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<92CBCD43-DC57-4CDB-A905-323D5DE4EDC1@scaldeferri.com>
Message-ID: <200706131530.14878.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 13 June 2007 15:24:00 Kevin Scaldeferri wrote:

> If we're voting, I'd also like "principals only", and "mostly Perl"
> in our job posting policy.

If we're voting, I'd like to humiliate people verbally who use the 
word "utilize" in an apparently serious context apart from the phrase "CPU 
utilization".  I mean, as long as we're griping about pet peeves....

-- c

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Jun 13 15:58:43 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:58:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20070613225843.GA11435@patch.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> I mean, it's one thing if Eric or Ovid says "hey, my company is hiring" (at
> least, when ovid was in pdx), 

Ovid saying "hey, my company is hiring" Now more than ever!

Pricipals only please.


-- 
      Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
          http://www.patch.com/words/ 
  The fortune cookie says:
Words can never express what words can never express.


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 00:21:24 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:21:24 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Bug Day for 0.4.13: Saturday, June 16th
Message-ID: <200706140021.24898.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

All you need is an irc client.

----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: Bug Day for 0.4.13: Saturday, June 16th
Date: Tuesday 12 June 2007 12:23 pm
From: Allison Randal <allison at perl.org>
To: p2 <parrot-porters at perl.org>

--From http://rakudo.org/parrot/index.cgi?bug_day_2007_06_16--

Bug Day

On Saturday, 16 June 2007, please join us on IRC in #parrot
(irc.perl.org) to work on closing out as many RT
(https://rt.perl.org/rt3/) tickets as possible in the parrot queue.
 This will help us get ready for the next release of parrot: 0.4.13,
 scheduled for Tuesday 19 June 2007. You'll find C, parrot assembly,
 perl, documentation, and plenty of tasks to go around. Core developers
 will be available most of the day to answer questions.

No experience with parrot necessary.

Thanks in advance for your patches and commits,
Allison

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 
software:  a hypothetical exercise which happens to compile.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 00:38:27 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:38:27 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Randal L. Schwartz
# on Wednesday 13 June 2007 03:11 pm:

>I feel a bit spammed by this. ?Can we adopt a "principals only" (aka
> "no recruiters") policy here?

That policy has already been in place, albeit informally.

Katie, if you or any of your fellow edgelink employees feel that you've 
been unjustly unsubscribed, please send me a message directly.

We welcome participation and vetted/Perl-specific job postings are okay, 
but this is primarily a technical list.  Recruitment is not completely 
forbidden, but should be moderated.  This particular posting would not 
have made it through moderation given that Perl is the *last* skill 
mentioned.

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
Scratch Computing
3320 SW 122nd Ave.
Beaverton, OR 97005

Office:  (503) 643-1684
Mobile:  (503) 880-4750

http://scratchcomputing.com

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 00:39:30 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:39:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Eric Wilhelm
# on Thursday 14 June 2007 12:38 am:

>That policy has already been in place, albeit informally.

Any volunteers for writing the page to formalize this?

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
"Insert random misquote here"
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 00:49:09 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:49:09 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <200706131530.14878.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<92CBCD43-DC57-4CDB-A905-323D5DE4EDC1@scaldeferri.com>
	<200706131530.14878.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <200706140049.10152.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from chromatic
# on Wednesday 13 June 2007 03:30 pm:

>> If we're voting, I'd also like "principals only", and "mostly Perl"
>> in our job posting policy.
>
>If we're voting, I'd like to humiliate people verbally who use the
>word "utilize" in an apparently serious context apart from the phrase
> "CPU utilization". ?I mean, as long as we're griping about pet
> peeves....

As mentioned at tonight's meeting, Randal gives +1 for spelling Perl 
without all caps, but we're still at -2 with Kevin and Michael.

I'll weigh-in with my +10 club of dictatorial demeritification for 
forcing me to seriously consider activating mailman's moderation for 
all new subscribers.  And another whack for edgelink having personally 
spammed me with php jobs until I called (e-mail wouldn't do) their 
office and asked to be removed from all of their lists.  One more whack 
for good measure puts it at -32.  Bye.

--Eric
-- 
The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30
shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64.
--Don Lancaster (1991)
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Thu Jun 14 00:53:52 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:53:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20070614075352.GA26225@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 12:39:30AM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> 
> Any volunteers for writing the page to formalize this?

Here is some verbiage which can be plagiarized freely:

   http://www.eeconsult.org/recruiters.html

You may also copy the "headhunter man" icon if you wish.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 14 01:37:44 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
Message-ID: <391711.75380.qm@web60816.mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com>

> Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > I mean, it's one thing if Eric or Ovid says "hey, my company is hiring" (at
> > least, when ovid was in pdx), 
>
> Ovid saying "hey, my company is hiring" Now more than ever!

Well, actually my company *is* hiring, but it will be a while before they go through another 6 month wait for a foreign employee :)

(Unless you happen to be a programming god they can't live without -- a category I don't fall into, so I guess I taught them a lesson)

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/





From akf at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 17 19:59:37 2007
From: akf at aracnet.com (Amy Farrell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:59:37 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>

I'll float a draft, since I suggested a page. It seems four days is 
enough for me to forget the details of what was discussed, so please 
forgive (and correct!) me where this is inaccurate:

================
List Policy

pdx-pm-list is for the discussion of perl and related topics by
portland perl mongers members.

Job postings from principals (not recruiters) are welcome as long as
perl programming is a primary part of the job. "My company is hiring a
perl programmer" is good, "Company X needs to hire a FizBinn
programmer and perl would be nice too" is not. Please do not join the
list just to post job offerings.
================

Rather than a stand-alone page, I think this would go best on the list 
info page:

  http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

and in the "welcome" email (if we have control over that).

If not, this looks like a good place:

  http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?MailingList

 - Amy

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from Eric Wilhelm
> # on Thursday 14 June 2007 12:38 am:
>
>> That policy has already been in place, albeit informally.
>
> Any volunteers for writing the page to formalize this?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric


From randall at sonofhans.net  Sun Jun 17 20:25:53 2007
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:25:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <7B0D7857-1235-47EE-BD32-5D8E872C7F9C@sonofhans.net>

On Jun 17, 2007, at 7:59 PM, Amy Farrell wrote:

> Job postings from principals (not recruiters) are welcome as long as
> perl programming is a primary part of the job. "My company is hiring a
> perl programmer" is good, "Company X needs to hire a FizBinn
> programmer and perl would be nice too" is not. Please do not join the
> list just to post job offerings.

amy++

r



From allison at perl.org  Sun Jun 17 22:59:14 2007
From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 22:59:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON rooming
Message-ID: <46761F32.3010804@perl.org>

Jonathan Worthington (Parrot hacker) will be in Portland for OSCON and 
is looking for a place to stay. Anyone up for hosting visiting geeks?

(Our geekpad in Hillsboro is a fallback, but the 2 hour daily round-trip 
commute to the Convention Center makes it less-than-ideal.)

Let me know if you're interested and I'll put you in touch with Jonathan.

Thanks,
Allison

From tex at off.org  Mon Jun 18 10:31:51 2007
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:31:51 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 07:59:37PM -0700, Amy Farrell wrote:
> I'll float a draft, since I suggested a page. It seems four days is 
> enough for me to forget the details of what was discussed, so please 
> forgive (and correct!) me where this is inaccurate:
> 
> ================
> List Policy
> 
> pdx-pm-list is for the discussion of perl and related topics by
> portland perl mongers members.
> 
> Job postings from principals (not recruiters) are welcome as long as
> perl programming is a primary part of the job. "My company is hiring a
> perl programmer" is good, "Company X needs to hire a FizBinn
> programmer and perl would be nice too" is not. Please do not join the
> list just to post job offerings.


	This is good and nicely worded. Off the record I would say that if
any of you who actually program computers for a living and/or have showed
up to a couple of meetings were looking for FizBinn programmers with perl
experience that would be fine too.
	On the record I'll say you should be tarred and forced to program
in Tcl for two weeks straight.

	Austin

From akf at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 18 11:22:55 2007
From: akf at aracnet.com (Amy K. Farrell)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:22:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please? (was Re:  Contract Opportunity)
In-Reply-To: <20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<4675F519.60204@aracnet.com> <20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 10:31:51AM -0700, Austin Schutz wrote:
> 	This is good and nicely worded. Off the record I would say that if
> any of you who actually program computers for a living and/or have showed
> up to a couple of meetings were looking for FizBinn programmers with perl
> experience that would be fine too.
> 	On the record I'll say you should be tarred and forced to program
> in Tcl for two weeks straight.
> 
> 	Austin


I agree. I almost included something roughly translating to
"long-standing members know what they can get away with," but caught
myself. No point *saying* that.

 - Amy

-- 
A.K. Farrell

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Jun 18 11:41:08 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:41:08 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com> (Amy K. Farrell's message of
	"Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:22:55 -0700")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
	<20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net> <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Amy" == Amy K Farrell <akf at aracnet.com> writes:

Amy> I agree. I almost included something roughly translating to
Amy> "long-standing members know what they can get away with," but caught
Amy> myself. No point *saying* that.

I think that's sort of what tweaked me in the first place.

A non-for-profit affiliation or association works because the group has
members who all contribute in their own ways.

It's a potluck.  Everybody brings a bit of food, and we all get to share the
resulting variety.

If someone has regularly brought food, and then one day shows up with no food,
and wanting to take a bit extra home for their family, we all go "cool, no
problem".  (If they started doing that every week, we might think twice.)

However, if someone came to their very first potluck, and said "I would like
to take home these three dishes, thank you", there would be an expected round
of outcries.

I consider a recruiting announcement, especially by a person who stands to
personally make money if fulfilled, a "taking", since it takes our attention
away, and that's the most precious resource most of us have: our time.  If
that same person had been "giving" for a long time, a single "taking" would be
a lot easier to swallow. (Mixed conflicting metaphors included for comic
effect.)

So, if you come, and participate, you can probably get away with a bit of
"look the other way" when you talk about your car for sale.  But if you walk
in the first day, advertising your car for sale, too bad.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From tex at off.org  Mon Jun 18 11:54:54 2007
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:54:54 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<4675F519.60204@aracnet.com> <20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>
	<20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 11:41:08AM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Amy" == Amy K Farrell <akf at aracnet.com> writes:
> 
> Amy> I agree. I almost included something roughly translating to
> Amy> "long-standing members know what they can get away with," but caught
> Amy> myself. No point *saying* that.
> 
> I think that's sort of what tweaked me in the first place.
> 
> A non-for-profit affiliation or association works because the group has
> members who all contribute in their own ways.
> 
> It's a potluck.  Everybody brings a bit of food, and we all get to share the
> resulting variety.
> 

	Hey, I like that metaphor. We could use it for a meeting unless
FreeGeek has some anti-food rules.

	Austin

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Jun 18 11:59:35 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:59:35 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net> (Austin Schutz's message of "Mon,
	18 Jun 2007 11:54:54 -0700")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
	<20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net> <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <86abuxqeaw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Austin" == Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> writes:

Austin> 	Hey, I like that metaphor. We could use it for a meeting unless
Austin> FreeGeek has some anti-food rules.

I never metaphor I didn't like.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From jeff at vpservices.com  Mon Jun 18 12:21:50 2007
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:21:50 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>	<20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>
	<20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <4676DB4E.2000706@vpservices.com>

Amy, thanks much for writing the recruitment policy, sounds good to me.  
I agree with what I think Austin and Randal were saying.  Coincidently, 
I happen to have a test case handy.  So treat the following as a request 
from a long standing member and shower me with opprobrium if it breaks 
our unwritten law:

I'm working for a local non-profit that is looking for a full-time 
sysadmin, someone who is able to communicate with other staff and 
understand the organization's goals (a non-BOFHish BOFH, if you will), 
who can work with (yuck) M$ Exchange, and who has moderate to strong 
video/streaming fu.  If you are or know of such a person, please contact 
me offlist.

-- 
Jeff (aka jZed)

From conform-perl at deadgeek.com  Mon Jun 18 12:25:38 2007
From: conform-perl at deadgeek.com (Seamus Campbell)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<4675F519.60204@aracnet.com> <20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net>
	<20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20070618192538.GB25473@deadgeek.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 11:54:54AM -0700, Austin Schutz wrote:
  Austin> 	Hey, I like that metaphor. We could use it for a meeting unless
  Austin> FreeGeek has some anti-food rules.

FreeGeek is very much pro-food.  And pro-potlucks.  No worries!

Seamus
perl hacker, list lurker, FG Director and Treasurer


From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jun 18 13:13:20 2007
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:13:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <20070618192538.GB25473@deadgeek.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
	<20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net> <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>
	<20070618192538.GB25473@deadgeek.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Seamus Campbell wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 11:54:54AM -0700, Austin Schutz wrote:
>  Austin> 	Hey, I like that metaphor. We could use it for a meeting unless
>  Austin> FreeGeek has some anti-food rules.
>
> FreeGeek is very much pro-food.  And pro-potlucks.  No worries!

So we need a rule that recruiters need to buy food/beer/cider?

-- 
"ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined.
ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct
assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..."
                                   - Alan Cox

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Mon Jun 18 14:44:07 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:44:07 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: StumbleVideo - Middle Ages Tech Support
References: <000001c7b119$fc54c0a0$6601a8c0@Kitchputer>
Message-ID: <A79A90E1-584C-4DD9-86EE-B28E512CF6B1@ohsu.edu>

Thought you might enjoy this.
Tom
kellert at ohsu.edu
503-494-2442


Begin forwarded message:

> http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=nehvwvwijz

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From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Jun 18 15:07:23 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:07:23 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	(alan@clueserver.org's message of "Mon,
	18 Jun 2007 13:13:20 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<86fy4vzert.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706140038.27757.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200706140039.31130.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <4675F519.60204@aracnet.com>
	<20070618173151.GG3746@gblx.net> <20070618182255.GA12009@aracnet.com>
	<86ejk9qf5n.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070618185454.GH3746@gblx.net>
	<20070618192538.GB25473@deadgeek.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
Message-ID: <864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "alan" == alan  <alan at clueserver.org> writes:

alan> So we need a rule that recruiters need to buy food/beer/cider?

Yes... if a recruiter wants to "sponsor" a monthly meeting by providing
foodstuffs for all of us in exchange for a 3-minute pitch of their choice,
I'd vote for that.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 16:18:53 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:18:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	<864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <200706181618.53497.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Randal L. Schwartz
# on Monday 18 June 2007 03:07 pm:

>alan> So we need a rule that recruiters need to buy food/beer/cider?
>
>Yes... if a recruiter wants to "sponsor" a monthly meeting by
> providing foodstuffs for all of us in exchange for a 3-minute pitch
> of their choice, I'd vote for that.

Well, sort of.  I think any objections to a given recruiter means they 
can find their own venue whether they've got beer or not.  Thus, 
they're still in the "better ask first" category, (rather than some 
random recruiter showing up and expecting to get the floor to recruit 
for doTnet jobs just because they bought us a five pack.)

--Eric
-- 
A counterintuitive sansevieria trifasciata was once literalized 
guiltily.
--Product of Artificial Intelligence
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Jun 18 16:36:14 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:36:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <200706181618.53497.ewilhelm@cpan.org> (Eric Wilhelm's message of
	"Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:18:53 -0700")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	<864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706181618.53497.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <86vedkomxd.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> writes:

Eric> Well, sort of.  I think any objections to a given recruiter means they 
Eric> can find their own venue whether they've got beer or not.  Thus, 
Eric> they're still in the "better ask first" category, (rather than some 
Eric> random recruiter showing up and expecting to get the floor to recruit 
Eric> for doTnet jobs just because they bought us a five pack.)

We'd also not want 10 recruiters all showing up the same night, providing
enough food and drink to feed a small army, only to consume 30 minutes of
otherwise valuable python-bashing time. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jun 18 16:47:28 2007
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <86vedkomxd.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	<864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706181618.53497.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<86vedkomxd.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181646430.25913@blackbox.fnordora.org>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> writes:
>
> Eric> Well, sort of.  I think any objections to a given recruiter means they
> Eric> can find their own venue whether they've got beer or not.  Thus,
> Eric> they're still in the "better ask first" category, (rather than some
> Eric> random recruiter showing up and expecting to get the floor to recruit
> Eric> for doTnet jobs just because they bought us a five pack.)
>
> We'd also not want 10 recruiters all showing up the same night, providing
> enough food and drink to feed a small army, only to consume 30 minutes of
> otherwise valuable python-bashing time. :)

Or having them bring cheap pizza or a small bag of potato chips...

-- 
"ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined.
ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct
assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..."
                                   - Alan Cox

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Jun 18 17:03:14 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:03:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] No recruiters, please?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181646430.25913@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	(alan@clueserver.org's message of "Mon,
	18 Jun 2007 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <8249F4EAF35487409BB26FC3B32DD47812ED78@server1.edgelink.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181312270.22137@blackbox.fnordora.org>
	<864pl4q5lw.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200706181618.53497.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<86vedkomxd.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0706181646430.25913@blackbox.fnordora.org>
Message-ID: <86ir9kolod.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "alan" == alan  <alan at clueserver.org> writes:

alan> Or having them bring cheap pizza or a small bag of potato chips...

You know, if the lady that started this discussion thread were to show
up at the next meeting to buy us all our first round at Lucky Lab,
I'd consider the case closed. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From brian at opensourcery.com  Thu Jun 21 17:50:33 2007
From: brian at opensourcery.com (Brian Jamison)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:50:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
Message-ID: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>

I think this fits within the acceptable guidelines.  If not please let
me know.

OpenSourcery is looking for a software developer experienced with object
oriented design, web applications and reliable development methods
including version control, unit testing, automated testing and
deployment processes. You should have a solid understanding of the
challenges specific to web applications, the inherently stateless nature
of HTTP, the typical security issues, common scaling issues involving
load balancing of web/database servers for an application, and the
applicability of MVC architecture and of AJAX.

The primary qualification for this position is an interest in creative
problem solving. OpenSourcery does a lot of custom development which
requires us to evaluate a client's problem domain, scope a solution and
build it incrementally with feedback.  Specifically we need the
following skills:

Platforms: *nix
Languages: Perl5, Javascript, SQL, HTML, XML, CSS, plus real development
experience with at least one other language (Ruby, Java, Python, PHP, C,
etc.)
Databases: PostgreSQL, MySQL
Frameworks/APIs: Template::Toolkit, AJAX, one or more unit testing
frameworks (Test::More, JUnit...), one or more acceptance testing
frameworks for webapps (Selenium, WWW::Mechanize, JWebUnit, etc...)
Tools: one or more source control systems, Make, common Unix
command line tools, psql, mysql, a programmer's editor or IDEs, ssh, one
or more debuggers/profilers
Skills: Perl-OO, CPAN, regular expressions, shell scripting, estimation,
project collaboration

Any of the following are desirable: Apache2, mod-perl, Subversion,
experience with other web application frameworks and ORMs, database
replication/clustering

Please provide us with a current resume and two work samples exercised
with test code. Please include a short summary with each work sample
which explains how you feel it is relevant to your qualifications.

http://opensourcery.com

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From randall at sonofhans.net  Thu Jun 21 18:05:10 2007
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:05:10 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
In-Reply-To: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>
References: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>
Message-ID: <B3D83C2C-C467-4272-AAA8-AA7F4B4DD970@sonofhans.net>

On Jun 21, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Brian Jamison wrote:

> OpenSourcery is looking for a software developer ...

FWIW I've been working for OpenSourcery for two years and I love it.   
It's without question the best group of people I've worked with, and  
we do good, valuable, and interesting work.

r


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jun 21 19:35:41 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:35:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
In-Reply-To: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com> (Brian Jamison's message of
	"Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:50:33 -0700")
References: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>
Message-ID: <86ps3oaf7m.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Jamison <brian at opensourcery.com> writes:

Brian> I think this fits within the acceptable guidelines.  If not please let
Brian> me know.

Oregon?  The moon?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From brian at opensourcery.com  Thu Jun 21 19:37:55 2007
From: brian at opensourcery.com (Brian Jamison)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:37:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
In-Reply-To: <86ps3oaf7m.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>
	<86ps3oaf7m.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <467B3603.3000800@opensourcery.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Jamison <brian at opensourcery.com> writes:
> 
> Brian> I think this fits within the acceptable guidelines.  If not please let
> Brian> me know.
> 
> Oregon?  The moon?

We're in Portland.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been called a loonie.

-B

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From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jun 21 19:38:31 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:38:31 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
In-Reply-To: <467B3603.3000800@opensourcery.com> (Brian Jamison's message of
	"Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:37:55 -0700")
References: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>
	<86ps3oaf7m.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<467B3603.3000800@opensourcery.com>
Message-ID: <86lkecaf2w.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Jamison <brian at opensourcery.com> writes:

>> Oregon?  The moon?

Brian> We're in Portland.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been called a
Brian> loonie.

Just saying, "not clear from your posting".

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From brian at opensourcery.com  Thu Jun 21 19:44:30 2007
From: brian at opensourcery.com (Brian Jamison)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:44:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl job with OpenSourcery
In-Reply-To: <86lkecaf2w.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <467B1CD9.1020202@opensourcery.com>	<86ps3oaf7m.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<467B3603.3000800@opensourcery.com>
	<86lkecaf2w.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <467B378E.9080704@opensourcery.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Jamison <brian at opensourcery.com> writes:
> 
>>> Oregon?  The moon?
> 
> Brian> We're in Portland.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been called a
> Brian> loonie.
> 
> Just saying, "not clear from your posting".

Thanks!  [The loonie bit entirely in jest, no offense taken]

-B

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From kellert at ohsu.edu  Fri Jun 22 17:45:21 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:45:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
Message-ID: <A551DB59-B91F-42D5-88F6-D5FA5AA8BB23@ohsu.edu>

I know I'm a little slow on the uptake, I am just discovering some of  
the new and improved Perl6 modules.
I wrote a little parser that used Perl6::Slurp for easy paragraph  
mode slurping today.
And I was wondering if yo'all could recommend some of your favorite  
Perl6 modules for use with Perl5.

thanks,
Tom Keller
kellert at ohsu.edu
4-2442


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From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Jun 23 01:51:53 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:51:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
In-Reply-To: <A551DB59-B91F-42D5-88F6-D5FA5AA8BB23@ohsu.edu>
References: <A551DB59-B91F-42D5-88F6-D5FA5AA8BB23@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200706230151.53139.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Friday 22 June 2007 17:45:21 Thomas Keller wrote:

> And I was wondering if yo'all could recommend some of your favorite
> Perl6 modules for use with Perl5.

Class::Trait, definitely.

-- c

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 25 01:29:23 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
Message-ID: <716021.38023.qm@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org>

> > And I was wondering if yo'all could recommend some of your favorite
> > Perl6 modules for use with Perl5.
>
> Class::Trait, definitely.


Well, I won't say 'Class::Trait' since I maintain (though I must say that it has saved my life *lots* of grief), so I'll vote for Perl6::Junction.  I don't use all of its power, but it's pretty damned handy.

Cheers,
Ovid





From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 25 01:31:30 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
Message-ID: <1487.43629.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org>

> Class::Trait, definitely.


You'll also notice several bug reports on Class::Trait.  Most of those are from Schwern when he was first using the module and the number of reports is not indicative of its quality.  It's pretty solid.

Cheers,
Ovid





From kellert at ohsu.edu  Mon Jun 25 10:00:30 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:00:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
In-Reply-To: <716021.38023.qm@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <716021.38023.qm@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0AA81264-36D1-4BEC-B6BE-FA3ECBB07725@ohsu.edu>

Thanks for the suggestions.
... now we need someone to give a talk on Traits.
chromatic? Schwern? Video link to Ovid?

Tom Keller
kellert at ohsu.edu
4-2442


On Jun 25, 2007, at 1:29 AM, Ovid wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org>
>
>>> And I was wondering if yo'all could recommend some of your favorite
>>> Perl6 modules for use with Perl5.
>>
>> Class::Trait, definitely.
>
>
> Well, I won't say 'Class::Trait' since I maintain (though I must  
> say that it has saved my life *lots* of grief), so I'll vote for  
> Perl6::Junction.  I don't use all of its power, but it's pretty  
> damned handy.
>
> Cheers,
> Ovid
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 12:48:12 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:48:12 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl6 for Perl5
In-Reply-To: <0AA81264-36D1-4BEC-B6BE-FA3ECBB07725@ohsu.edu>
References: <716021.38023.qm@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
	<0AA81264-36D1-4BEC-B6BE-FA3ECBB07725@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200706251248.12372.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas Keller
# on Monday 25 June 2007 10:00 am:

>now we need someone to give a talk on Traits.
>... Video link to Ovid?

Podcast from December 2005?

  http://pdxpm.podasp.com/archive.html?pname=meetings.xml

Ovid talked about traits starting at about 44:50 in the 
"Ovid/Eric/Randal" set (177.)

--Eric
-- 
The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30
shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64.
--Don Lancaster (1991)
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 16:03:18 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:03:18 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>

so at work I'm trying to clean up this big decision tree and I came up
with the idea to have a return_if sub... seems easy, looks clean. The
plan was to take this big waterfall if-else block and start to invert
the logic a bit to clean things up... this would help to reduce things
to nice clean, easy to read lines. Alas I'm horribly lost and figured
I would enlist some help.

Ideally I would love to do this:

sub return_if {
   my ($eval, $value) = @_;
   $value = $eval if !defined($value);
   {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if defined($eval);
}

The hard part for me is getting a sub to issue a return from where it
was called from? I asked on #perl and ended up getting pointed to:
Code::Splice
Sub::WrapPackages
Hook::LexWrap

The problem is that all of these basically just inject pre and post
actions to a sub... so I still can't think of how to have return_if
issue a return at the point where it's called?

Am I just dreaming? is this not possible? It's not like it's all that
hard to just write it out long hand and it's not the end of the world
if this is not possible, just one of the sticky points for the day.
Figured I would share.

-- 
benh~

From ckuskie at dalsemi.com  Tue Jun 26 16:17:03 2007
From: ckuskie at dalsemi.com (Colin Kuskie)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:17:03 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706261617.03365.ckuskie@dalsemi.com>

On Tuesday 26 June 2007 16:03, benh wrote:
> so at work I'm trying to clean up this big decision tree and I came up
> with the idea to have a return_if sub... seems easy, looks clean. The
> plan was to take this big waterfall if-else block and start to invert
> the logic a bit to clean things up... this would help to reduce things
> to nice clean, easy to read lines. Alas I'm horribly lost and figured
> I would enlist some help.

That kind of sounds like magic goto.  See the last part of the goto
entry in perldoc -f goto.

Colin


From rootbeer at redcat.com  Tue Jun 26 16:32:40 2007
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:32:40 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/07, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ideally I would love to do this:
>
> sub return_if {
>    my ($eval, $value) = @_;
>    $value = $eval if !defined($value);
>    {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if defined($eval);
> }

How would you use such a thing? Like this?

  &return_if( SOME_EXPR );

  &return_if( SOME_EXPR, EXPR_TO_RETURN );

I get your idea that the sub makes the calling sub return. (What does
it do if it wasn't called from a sub? Crash?)

I'm thinking you really want something like this:

  return(SOME_EXPR err ANOTHER);

Where err is the new err operator rumored to become available
somewhere around 5.10, but certainly by Perl 6. It returns its left
operand if that's defined, else its right operand.

But it's still not quite what you're looking for, is it? There's
probably some hocus pocus possible with a module to muck with Perl's
return stack, but I can't recommend that. But I think what you're
asking for is a new control structure, so it's a tall order.

Still, you might be able to do something. Although this trick feels
about as bad as using goto.

sub return_if {
  my($value) = shift;
  return unless defined $value;
  $value = shift if @_;  # uses second parameter, if given
  our $returnable = $value;  # set the return value
  last;  # "return" it after the calling loop block
}

sub extra_tricky {
  our $returnable = undef;
  {
    &return_if( SOME_EXPR );
    &return_if( ANOTHER_ONE );
  }
  ## last comes here ##
  return $returnable if $returnable;
  return 'default result';
}

I believe most recent releases of Perl can warn you against this. With
good reason.

Good luck with it!

--Tom Phoenix

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 17:17:41 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:17:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>

[colin]humm... goto looks like I could be worth a stab.

[tom] the way that I was thinking of things is that it would just be
shorthand for:

vaule_of_function = function();
return value_of_function if defined value_of_function;

so that I would not have to write things twice, also save me a line,
or at least thats what started all of this.

as for what would happen, the same as the normal return val if
defined(val); it would return at that point or would continue to the
next line. So your extra_tricky example would looks like it would
always end up with 'ANOTHER_ONE' instead of the 'SOME_EXPR' like I was
thinking, or would the last end the block that it was called from...
if so then I guess I'm really just looking to build a last_if.

any who thanks so much for the post, I'll go a poking at the code see
what comes up.



On 6/26/07, Tom Phoenix <rootbeer at redcat.com> wrote:
> On 6/26/07, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ideally I would love to do this:
> >
> > sub return_if {
> >    my ($eval, $value) = @_;
> >    $value = $eval if !defined($value);
> >    {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if defined($eval);
> > }
>
> How would you use such a thing? Like this?
>
>   &return_if( SOME_EXPR );
>
>   &return_if( SOME_EXPR, EXPR_TO_RETURN );
>
> I get your idea that the sub makes the calling sub return. (What does
> it do if it wasn't called from a sub? Crash?)
>
> I'm thinking you really want something like this:
>
>   return(SOME_EXPR err ANOTHER);
>
> Where err is the new err operator rumored to become available
> somewhere around 5.10, but certainly by Perl 6. It returns its left
> operand if that's defined, else its right operand.
>
> But it's still not quite what you're looking for, is it? There's
> probably some hocus pocus possible with a module to muck with Perl's
> return stack, but I can't recommend that. But I think what you're
> asking for is a new control structure, so it's a tall order.
>
> Still, you might be able to do something. Although this trick feels
> about as bad as using goto.
>
> sub return_if {
>   my($value) = shift;
>   return unless defined $value;
>   $value = shift if @_;  # uses second parameter, if given
>   our $returnable = $value;  # set the return value
>   last;  # "return" it after the calling loop block
> }
>
> sub extra_tricky {
>   our $returnable = undef;
>   {
>     &return_if( SOME_EXPR );
>     &return_if( ANOTHER_ONE );
>   }
>   ## last comes here ##
>   return $returnable if $returnable;
>   return 'default result';
> }
>
> I believe most recent releases of Perl can warn you against this. With
> good reason.
>
> Good luck with it!
>
> --Tom Phoenix
>


-- 
benh~

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 17:57:19 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:57:19 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
	<85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706261757.19897.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from benh
# on Tuesday 26 June 2007 05:17 pm:

>Ideally I would love to do this:
>
>sub return_if {
>   my ($eval, $value) = @_;
>   $value = $eval if !defined($value);
>   {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if
> defined($eval); }

That's not exactly clear.  Are you trying to return the value if it is 
defined?  That is, you're trying to get away from two-line things like:

  my $val = answer($param);
  return($val) if(defined($val));

?

Yeah, that could be tighter, but I don't recall ever being bothered by 
it (then again, I'm not looking at ten pages of them, are you?)

The opposite is pretty concise:

  return() unless(defined(my $val = answer($param)));

>[colin]humm... goto looks like I could be worth a stab.

Probably want to avoid that.  Any goto besides gosub (goto &subname) is 
typically asking for trouble and gosub doesn't really apply here.

Sounds like you're asking for a macro of some sort.  Since this is not 
C, maybe try looking at it from a different POV.

If it is a big list of methods without any intermediate code, you could 
just do something like:

  foreach my $method (@methods) {
    my $val = $self->$method;
    return($val) if(defined($val));
  }

You can do that with functions too, but you have to turn off strict or 
make @methods be a list of references to the functions (or anonymous 
subs with the values curried (curried?.))

  my @funcs = (
    sub {this_one($foo, @_)},
    sub {that_one($bar, @_)},
    sub {the_next($baz, $bar, $foo, @_)},
  );
  foreach my $func (@funcs) {
    my $ans = $func->(@extra_params);
    return($ans) if(defined($ans));
  }

Or use a source filter ;-)

--Eric
-- 
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
--Occam's Razor
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
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From tex at off.org  Tue Jun 26 21:28:46 2007
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <200706261757.19897.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
	<85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
	<200706261757.19897.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20070627042846.GO3746@gblx.net>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 05:57:19PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from benh
> # on Tuesday 26 June 2007 05:17 pm:
> 
> >Ideally I would love to do this:
> >
> >sub return_if {
> >   my ($eval, $value) = @_;
> >   $value = $eval if !defined($value);
> >   {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if
> > defined($eval); }
> 
> That's not exactly clear.  Are you trying to return the value if it is 
> defined?  That is, you're trying to get away from two-line things like:
> 
>   my $val = answer($param);
>   return($val) if(defined($val));
> 
> ?
> 
> Yeah, that could be tighter, but I don't recall ever being bothered by 
> it (then again, I'm not looking at ten pages of them, are you?)
> 
> The opposite is pretty concise:
> 
>   return() unless(defined(my $val = answer($param)));
> 

	I believe the intent is to do something like

assert( test() ); 

	and be able to have the return portion automatic. If you understand
what is meant it is far more concise. But the language doesn't cleanly
support it- which may be a boon, since it would be surprising behavior.  I had
at one point had the same wish, but something that fundamental to the
operation of the interpreter would be very hard to bolt on cleanly. Well,
unless you are a lot more clever than I am.

	If true/false will work for you, you can distill it to a simple test
case:

	assert( test() ) or return;

	If testing defined():

	defined(assert(test())) or return;


	Basically all variations on the theme of Eric's response.


	Austin

From MichaelRWolf at att.net  Wed Jun 27 04:47:22 2007
From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:47:22 -0400
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com><31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
	<85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c7b8b0$f28cb110$3200000a@mlaptop>

> vaule_of_function = function();
> return value_of_function if defined value_of_function;

This refactors to "non-magic"[1] Perl[2]:

    return $rc if defined($rc = function());
 

Is there anyone on this list working on Perl6 continuations?  Any comment on
the proposed return_if "flow control"?  Is it more like an exception or more
like spaghetti?

Notes:
  1. for the definition of "non-magic" that includes folks knowing that
assignment returns a value

  2. something to consider for the folks who have to maintain the code when
you get hit by a bus (or another job offer)

-- 
Michael R. Wolf
    All mammals learn by playing!
        MichaelRWolf at att.net




From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 07:59:27 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:59:27 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] the quest for return_if
In-Reply-To: <20070627042846.GO3746@gblx.net>
References: <85ddf48b0706261603h9852597g34d1cbd8ccfb6805@mail.gmail.com>
	<31086b240706261632t587b808csf922f4a93d451154@mail.gmail.com>
	<85ddf48b0706261717rdab6409q7864a8d04191ae28@mail.gmail.com>
	<200706261757.19897.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<20070627042846.GO3746@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0706270759i237db146ta75c9d5fd72c78a4@mail.gmail.com>

austin that looks perfect. now off to work and see how well my day
goes because of it. I never really though about useing the testing
suit.

On 6/26/07, Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 05:57:19PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> > # from benh
> > # on Tuesday 26 June 2007 05:17 pm:
> >
> > >Ideally I would love to do this:
> > >
> > >sub return_if {
> > >   my ($eval, $value) = @_;
> > >   $value = $eval if !defined($value);
> > >   {FROM_THE_POINT_WHERE_I_WAS_CALLED}->return $value if
> > > defined($eval); }
> >
> > That's not exactly clear.  Are you trying to return the value if it is
> > defined?  That is, you're trying to get away from two-line things like:
> >
> >   my $val = answer($param);
> >   return($val) if(defined($val));
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Yeah, that could be tighter, but I don't recall ever being bothered by
> > it (then again, I'm not looking at ten pages of them, are you?)
> >
> > The opposite is pretty concise:
> >
> >   return() unless(defined(my $val = answer($param)));
> >
>
>         I believe the intent is to do something like
>
> assert( test() );
>
>         and be able to have the return portion automatic. If you understand
> what is meant it is far more concise. But the language doesn't cleanly
> support it- which may be a boon, since it would be surprising behavior.  I had
> at one point had the same wish, but something that fundamental to the
> operation of the interpreter would be very hard to bolt on cleanly. Well,
> unless you are a lot more clever than I am.
>
>         If true/false will work for you, you can distill it to a simple test
> case:
>
>         assert( test() ) or return;
>
>         If testing defined():
>
>         defined(assert(test())) or return;
>
>
>         Basically all variations on the theme of Eric's response.
>
>
>         Austin
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From raanders at acm.org  Wed Jun 27 08:18:10 2007
From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] POE start-up suggestions
Message-ID: <46827FB2.5040706@acm.org>

Though it's not strictly Perl this seems like a good place to start. 
I'll hit PLUG later or next.

I'm in the process of building a POE server at work for a light duty 
service.  It's pretty close to being usable so now I could some 
suggestions on how to start the service when the system comes up.

We typically run Fedora Core 5 ( in Linux-Vserver guests ) so something 
System V-ish verses BSD-ish is preferred.  Ideally, some way, when 
Apache is starting would be be the ultimate cool since the main 
application is developed using Catalyst.

And before it comes up we reviewed the option of building it as part of 
the Cat application but decided it was used too little to warrant 
putting it, and it's overhead, in the main application.  Plus it could 
be moved to another system if the need arose.


TIA,
Rod
-- 




From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com  Wed Jun 27 10:46:20 2007
From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:46:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] documenting spaghetti code
Message-ID: <B4BD9C80-2F13-4D82-81D9-803E61C3E811@chrisking.com>

Hello,

Apologies if this is a really dumb question.

I have some really horrific code (in C) that I need to make a few  
changes to. Unfortunately, I must learn how most of the code works  
before I make the changes. There are about 20k lines, there is no  
test suite and the code is largely undocumented.

I'm also working with some engineers who are not programmers, but  
need to know how the software works in order to make intelligent  
suggestions on improving it (it is a physical process, run by a  
microcontroller).

I am struggling with how to document the code in a way that is  
helpful to us all. I did find some code beautifiers to make reading a  
bit less painful.

For the docs, I've started by making a flowchart that walks through  
the logic and identifies which files subroutines can be found in. Is  
this what I should be doing? Am I doing way too much work? Is there  
some really awesome perl tool that maps out a function/tree structure  
for me? Is there some other way to do this?

thanks,
selena

From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Jun 27 10:50:14 2007
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:50:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] documenting spaghetti code
In-Reply-To: <B4BD9C80-2F13-4D82-81D9-803E61C3E811@chrisking.com>
References: <B4BD9C80-2F13-4D82-81D9-803E61C3E811@chrisking.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0706271048330.30319@blackbox.fnordora.org>

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Selena Deckelmann wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Apologies if this is a really dumb question.
>
> I have some really horrific code (in C) that I need to make a few
> changes to. Unfortunately, I must learn how most of the code works
> before I make the changes. There are about 20k lines, there is no
> test suite and the code is largely undocumented.
>
> I'm also working with some engineers who are not programmers, but
> need to know how the software works in order to make intelligent
> suggestions on improving it (it is a physical process, run by a
> microcontroller).
>
> I am struggling with how to document the code in a way that is
> helpful to us all. I did find some code beautifiers to make reading a
> bit less painful.
>
> For the docs, I've started by making a flowchart that walks through
> the logic and identifies which files subroutines can be found in. Is
> this what I should be doing? Am I doing way too much work? Is there
> some really awesome perl tool that maps out a function/tree structure
> for me? Is there some other way to do this?

You might want to try Sparse.  Not a Perl tool, but it can generate 
structure graphs among other things.

http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/devel/sparse/

-- 
"ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined.
ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct
assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..."
                                   - Alan Cox

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 18:26:24 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:26:24 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Apress User Group Newsletter -- June 2007
Message-ID: <200706281826.25154.ewilhelm@cpan.org>


----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: Apress User Group Newsletter -- June 2007
Date: Thursday 28 June 2007 02:55 pm
From: Apress Newsletters <newsletters at apress.com>

Your email application doesn't appear to be displaying the HTML version
 of our newsletter. You can view it online here:
 http://apress.com/newsletter/67/

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-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org