From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:07:06 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:07:06 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: So Many Events, So Little Time Message-ID: <200707021607.06716.ewilhelm@cpan.org> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: So Many Events, So Little Time Date: Monday 02 July 2007 02:39 pm From: "O'Reilly Open Source Convention" To: ewilhelm at cpan.org O'Reilly Open Source Convention July 23-27, 2007 Portland, Oregon http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon Coming Up Quickly! The 2007 O'Reilly OSCON Is Happening July 23-27 in Portland, Oregon. Here's Why You Don't Want To Miss It: Join more than 2,500 open source developers, gurus, experts, and users for five jam-packed days with rousing keynotes, multi-track sessions, expert tutorials, and special events, including the O'Reilly Radar Executive Briefing. Register now at: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/register Can't-miss Keynotes Explain the Present and Explore the Future of Open Source Software. Included in our stellar line-up are: -Simon Peyton-Jones, Microsoft Research -- "Transactional Memory for Concurrent Programming" -Rick Falkvinge, founder and leader of the Swedish Pirate Party -- "Copyright Regime vs. Civil Liberties" -Simon Wardley, COO, Fotango -- "Commodization of IT and What the Future Holds" -Phillip Torrone, senior editor, MAKE Magazine "Open Source Hardware: A Start..." Other keynote speakers include Mark Shuttleworth, Ben Fry, Steve Yegge, Philip Rosedale, Jimmy Wales, James Larsson, and Tim O'Reilly. See a complete list of speakers and sessions at http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2007/schedule/ O'Reilly Radar: The Executive Briefing On Tuesday, an all day event not to be missed: The OSCON O'Reilly Radar Executive Briefing, were Tim O'Reilly and the Radar team examines the shape of the future of open source. Join us as we explore trends, companies, and projects that matter today and point to what you'll need to know tomorrow. Space is limited and this briefing requires separate registration, to learn more please see below: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/radar.html O'Reilly Booth Activities: Re-Charge your Batteries Wednesday and Thursday from 10:00AM to 5:00PM come hang out at the O'Reilly Booth in the exhibit hall. Free coffee, popcorn, wireless, goodies and promotional items. Relax with the authors, friends and colleagues, contribute to the poetry wall and more! Powell's Technical Book Event On Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday: In addition to author appearances and signings, Powell's will also be hosting author events at the Technical Bookstore. So please don't miss the Powell's booth event line up. http://www.powells.com/oscon Birds of a Feather Sessions This is an opportunity for face-to-face interaction with those interested in the same projects and concepts. Collaborate and share new ideas with fellow attendees. BoF's will be available each night throughout the week. Start and end times vary so please check the daily calendar for details. For more information and to sign up to lead a BoF please visit: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html Other OSCON Events of Note: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/events.html Tuesday Open Solutions Alliance SSO Hack-A-Thon Tutorial This event is designed to speed the creation and adoption of integrated, interoperable open solutions for business customers. http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14364 Meet-n-Geek Another fun opportunity for individuals to meet with new and veteran OSCON participants. http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14294 Google O'Reilly Open Source Awards, to be announced at the Meet-n-Geek event. http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14358 Wednesday OSCAMP This event provides an adaptive, open environment where the proceedings and content are driven by the attendees. This event starts early at 9:00AM and ends at 6:00PM that evening. For more information please visit: http://oscamp.org/ Expo Hall Reception Have a drink and mingle with other OSCON participants, and see the latest products, projects, services, and gadgets from sponsors and exhibitors. From 6:00PM to 7:30PM in exhibit hall D. http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14360 Google Web Toolkit Hack Session The Google Web Toolkit (GWT) makes it possible to develop in the Java language and deploy cross-browser-compliant JavaScript. Come join us for some finger food and food for thought as we discuss how GWT works. Bring your laptop and be prepared to get your hands dirty with some code. Come early as space is limited to 100 people - first come, first served. From 7:30PM to 10:00PM in room E145. For details please see below: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14762 Thursday SourceForge.net Community Choice Awards A night of drinks, food, prizes, and surprises as we announce the winners of our Second Annual SourceForge.net Community Choice Awards. Trust us, this will not be your typical awards ceremony. Located within walking distance at the Jupiter Hotel from 6:00PM to 9:00PM. If you'd like to attend, please RSVP by June 29 to: mailto:cca at corp.sourceforge.com. OSCAMP continues from 9:00AM to 6:00PM in the main convention center. Friday Closing Event Get Together Follow the final keynote presentation and say goodbye to colleagues over refreshments http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14743 Are you convinced yet? We hope to see you in Portland! The OSCON 2007 Conference Team P.S. What are you waiting for? Register now at http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/register. ******************************************************* If you have a conference-related question, or do not wish to receive messages about this particular event in the future, please reply to this message. To unsubscribe from ALL O'Reilly conference announcements, send a message to: conferences-unsubscribe at oreilly.com. O'Reilly Media, Inc. 1005 Gravenstein Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472 ******************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------- -- http://pdx.pm.org From kevin at scaldeferri.com Tue Jul 3 11:47:22 2007 From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:47:22 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? Message-ID: Does anyone have a memory leak checking module they particularly recommend at the moment? My required usage demands something that doesn't require that I modify my code at all. I want to be able to just load the module from the commandline when running unit tests. So, just like you can run Devel::Cover on your unit tests like: HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. Thanks for any suggestions. -kevin From schwern at pobox.com Tue Jul 3 13:52:53 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:52:53 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> Kevin Scaldeferri wrote: > Does anyone have a memory leak checking module they particularly > recommend at the moment? My required usage demands something that > doesn't require that I modify my code at all. I want to be able to > just load the module from the commandline when running unit tests. > So, just like you can run Devel::Cover on your unit tests like: > > HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test > > I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. Test::Memory::Cycle can check individual objects and references for memory leaks. Otherwise there's Devel::Leak which I've never really had luck with. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:03:07 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:03:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> References: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Michael G Schwern # on Tuesday 03 July 2007 01:52 pm: >> HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test >> >> I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. > >Test::Memory::Cycle can check individual objects and references for > memory leaks. > >Otherwise there's Devel::Leak which I've never really had luck with. I also see Devel::LeakTrace. I haven't tried either of those, but it sounds like neither would really give the sort of harnessed usage Kevin wants (which sounds like it would be a good thing.) Possibly something that just makes noise during global cleanup? Here I'm thinking mainly about lexicals (I believe any globals have to be cleaned-up at the end and I guess their leakage doesn't matter anyway, right?) BEGIN {do {"./t/this.t"}; } END { print STDERR ">>>THIS IS THE END<<<\n";} *UNIVERSAL::DESTROY = sub { print STDERR "$_[0] is leaky\n"; }; Combine that basic scheme with several pages of the perl hacks book and you'll get to be the presenter at the August meeting :-D --Eric -- [...proprietary software is better than gpl because...] "There is value in having somebody you can write checks to, and they fix bugs." --Mike McNamara (president of a commercial software company) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From rootbeer at redcat.com Tue Jul 3 15:03:32 2007 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:03:32 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31086b240707031503i50c3f43bod707c5639674cc72@mail.gmail.com> On 7/3/07, Kevin Scaldeferri wrote: > Does anyone have a memory leak checking module they particularly > recommend at the moment? My required usage demands something that > doesn't require that I modify my code at all. I want to be able to > just load the module from the commandline when running unit tests. > So, just like you can run Devel::Cover on your unit tests like: > > HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test > > I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. But coverage can be checked programmatically. I don't think there's a way to be sure (without applying a brain to the problem) that you'll never again need a particular allocated chunk of memory, until it's the end of the program and you didn't. Although some special cases can be detected, and some software can catch many of these special cases. If there's a particular something that you think is getting allocated and not deallocated, you can track what happens to those particular somethings. But if you're looking everywhere in the forest of perl core + extensions + your OS for memory leaks, it's a formidable task. Of course, if you're programming in pure Perl, you shouldn't generally have to worry about leaking memory. You should have to worry only about buying memory. :-) I hope somebody follows up to say that there's some wonderful memory leak tool that I've never heard of. But I think you're looking for something that may not exist. Good luck with your project! --Tom Phoenix From chromatic at wgz.org Tue Jul 3 15:10:18 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:10:18 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200707031510.18329.chromatic@wgz.org> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:03:07 Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Combine that basic scheme with several pages of the perl hacks book and > you'll get to be the presenter at the August meeting :-D Doesn't that go for just about every month? -- c From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:16:57 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:16:57 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <31086b240707031503i50c3f43bod707c5639674cc72@mail.gmail.com> References: <31086b240707031503i50c3f43bod707c5639674cc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707031516.57476.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Tom Phoenix # on Tuesday 03 July 2007 03:03 pm: >Of course, if you're programming in pure Perl, you shouldn't generally >have to worry about leaking memory. You should have to worry only >about buying memory. :-) Bit of a terminology problem here. Kevin is talking about variables that can't be garbage-collected until global cleanup due to circular references and Perl's reference-counting GC scheme. See "Two-Phased Garbage Collection" in perlobj, weaken() in Scalar::Util and Devel::Cycle for more explanation. --Eric -- If the above message is encrypted and you have lost your pgp key, please send a self-addressed, stamped lead box to the address below. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From chromatic at wgz.org Tue Jul 3 15:28:10 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:28:10 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707031516.57476.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <31086b240707031503i50c3f43bod707c5639674cc72@mail.gmail.com> <200707031516.57476.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200707031528.10888.chromatic@wgz.org> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:16:57 Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Bit of a terminology problem here. Kevin is talking about variables > that can't be garbage-collected until global cleanup due to circular > references and Perl's reference-counting GC scheme. See "Two-Phased > Garbage Collection" in perlobj, weaken() in Scalar::Util and > Devel::Cycle for more explanation. Oh, if that's what it is then also "Better Code through Destruction": http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/06/07/better-code-through-destruction.html -- c From merlyn at stonehenge.com Tue Jul 3 17:26:05 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:05 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707031528.10888.chromatic@wgz.org> (chromatic@wgz.org's message of "Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:28:10 -0700") References: <31086b240707031503i50c3f43bod707c5639674cc72@mail.gmail.com> <200707031516.57476.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200707031528.10888.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <86ved1nheq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "chromatic" == chromatic writes: chromatic> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:16:57 Eric Wilhelm wrote: >> Bit of a terminology problem here. Kevin is talking about variables >> that can't be garbage-collected until global cleanup due to circular >> references and Perl's reference-counting GC scheme. See "Two-Phased >> Garbage Collection" in perlobj, weaken() in Scalar::Util and >> Devel::Cycle for more explanation. chromatic> Oh, if that's what it is then also "Better Code through Destruction": chromatic> http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/06/07/better-code-through-destruction.html And google "site:stonehenge.com weaken". -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From kevin at scaldeferri.com Tue Jul 3 23:21:26 2007 From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:21:26 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2007, at 3:03 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Michael G Schwern > # on Tuesday 03 July 2007 01:52 pm: > >>> HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test >>> >>> I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. >> >> Test::Memory::Cycle can check individual objects and references for >> memory leaks. >> >> Otherwise there's Devel::Leak which I've never really had luck with. > Both of those require modifying your code, which I can't do for this application. > I also see Devel::LeakTrace. That looks like what I want. I'm not sure how I missed it when searching CPAN myself (I found the previous two suggestions). I'll give it a try on Thurs and see if it seems to work for me. (Aside: the last time I went down more-or-less this road, a couple years ago, I found that none of the leak checking modules really seemed to work all that well, or be that useful in practice. I'm hoping this situation has improved. I guess it's a function of the fact that it's significantly harder to leak memory in Perl than in C that C has excellent tools like valgrind for detecting and debugging memory leaks, while in Perl the situation is pretty grim.) > Possibly something that just makes noise during global cleanup? Here > I'm thinking mainly about lexicals (I believe any globals have to be > cleaned-up at the end and I guess their leakage doesn't matter anyway, > right?) > > BEGIN {do {"./t/this.t"}; } > END { print STDERR ">>>THIS IS THE END<<<\n";} > *UNIVERSAL::DESTROY = sub { > print STDERR "$_[0] is leaky\n"; > }; > I think that would only detect leaks of objects, right? I'd like to detect leaks of normal variables as well. -kevin PS: to those who suggested articles about coding techniques for avoiding leaks, I appreciate the pointers, but it's not immediately relevant to me. I'm working on platform / infrastructure stuff at the moment -- augmenting our standard makefiles to do things like coverage analysis and memory analysis via make targets. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 00:47:13 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 00:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: References: <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200707040047.13285.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Kevin Scaldeferri # on Tuesday 03 July 2007 11:21 pm: >> ? BEGIN {do {"./t/this.t"}; } >> ? END { print STDERR ">>>THIS IS THE END<<<\n";} >> ? *UNIVERSAL::DESTROY = sub { >> ? ? print STDERR "$_[0] is leaky\n"; >> ? }; > >I think that would only detect leaks of objects, right? ?I'd like to ? >detect leaks of normal variables as well. Yep, only objects. That suggestion is also limited in that it would need to be told "oh, those are ok" if there's a package lexical or package global being destroyed at the END. (And from a simple test, there are going to be some IO::Handle objects and other bits of non-trivial magic appearing.) The code has circular references in lexical non-objects? That's just frightening. If you're dealing with package variables, they're in the symbol table. --Eric -- Turns out the optimal technique is to put it in reverse and gun it. --Steven Squyres (on challenges in interplanetary robot navigation) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rectangular.com Wed Jul 4 08:24:23 2007 From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 08:24:23 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: References: <468AB725.8000907@pobox.com> <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <11AC7500-D525-4913-B783-19E57C6F74E1@rectangular.com> On Jul 3, 2007, at 11:21 PM, Kevin Scaldeferri wrote: > I guess it's a function of the > fact that it's significantly harder to leak memory in Perl than in C > that C has excellent tools like valgrind for detecting and debugging > memory leaks, while in Perl the situation is pretty grim.) Yeah, and Valgrind won't help here. I use it for debugging XS all the time (perlhack has the gory details). Unfortunately, it looks like Perl (or at least, a debugging perl with the environment variable PERL_DESTRUCT_LEVEL set to 2) cleans up native circular refs before exiting, as illustrated below. Marvin Humphrey Rectangular Research http://www.rectangular.com/ [marvin at wembly devel]$ cat circular.pl my ( %foo, %bar ); $foo{bar} = \%bar; $bar{foo} = \%foo; [marvin at wembly devel]$ printenv | ack DESTRUCT PERL_DESTRUCT_LEVEL=2 [marvin at wembly devel]$ valgrind --leak-check=full --show- reachable=yes --suppressions=p588_valgrind.supp /usr/local/debugperl/ bin/perl5.8.8 circular.pl ==25794== Memcheck, a memory error detector. ==25794== Copyright (C) 2002-2005, and GNU GPL'd, by Julian Seward et al. ==25794== Using LibVEX rev 1471, a library for dynamic binary translation. ==25794== Copyright (C) 2004-2005, and GNU GPL'd, by OpenWorks LLP. ==25794== Using valgrind-3.1.0, a dynamic binary instrumentation framework. ==25794== Copyright (C) 2000-2005, and GNU GPL'd, by Julian Seward et al. ==25794== For more details, rerun with: -v ==25794== ==25794== ==25794== ERROR SUMMARY: 0 errors from 0 contexts (suppressed: 21 from 1) ==25794== malloc/free: in use at exit: 127 bytes in 16 blocks. ==25794== malloc/free: 688 allocs, 672 frees, 84,133 bytes allocated. ==25794== For counts of detected errors, rerun with: -v ==25794== searching for pointers to 16 not-freed blocks. ==25794== checked 288,332 bytes. ==25794== ==25794== LEAK SUMMARY: ==25794== definitely lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks. ==25794== possibly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks. ==25794== still reachable: 0 bytes in 0 blocks. ==25794== suppressed: 127 bytes in 16 blocks. [marvin at wembly devel]$ From kevin at scaldeferri.com Wed Jul 4 10:38:28 2007 From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:38:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707040047.13285.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707031503.08059.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200707040047.13285.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <97AAAF1A-F576-47F0-83D4-4E87431B6BFA@scaldeferri.com> On Jul 4, 2007, at 12:47 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Kevin Scaldeferri > # on Tuesday 03 July 2007 11:21 pm: > >>> BEGIN {do {"./t/this.t"}; } >>> END { print STDERR ">>>THIS IS THE END<<<\n";} >>> *UNIVERSAL::DESTROY = sub { >>> print STDERR "$_[0] is leaky\n"; >>> }; >> >> I think that would only detect leaks of objects, right? I'd like to >> detect leaks of normal variables as well. > > Yep, only objects. That suggestion is also limited in that it would > need to be told "oh, those are ok" if there's a package lexical or > package global being destroyed at the END. (And from a simple test, > there are going to be some IO::Handle objects and other bits of > non-trivial magic appearing.) > > The code has circular references in lexical non-objects? That's just > frightening. As I mentioned at the end of my last message, there is no "the code". Essentially, I'm designing Makefiles for general use. However, the last time I was trying to do memory leak debugging of Perl, a couple years ago, the tools which only detected object leaks proved not to find anything in the codebase I was working with. The tools which detected general variable leaks found lots of stuff. Now, I don't want to particularly defend the quality of that codebase, but it's just an example of why I don't want to be limited to only object leak detection. -kevin From me at donaldrichardson.net Thu Jul 5 16:10:23 2007 From: me at donaldrichardson.net (Donald Richardson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:10:23 -0400 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Job posting. Message-ID: <20070705231022.GA17772@donaldrichardson.net> I may get in trouble for this since it's not a 100% perl job. It's more of a hybrid HTML/perl job. Essentially, it'll be dealing with an in-house templating system (read legacy) to develop front-end interfaces. This templating sytem is written in perl, so often added functionality requires custom code. The job is where I work. So, I'm not a recruiter or anything. Let me know if this is inappropriate and I shall promptly flagellate myself (and others who wish to partake). If it sounds appealing to anyone cover letters and resumes to jobs at conquent.com Here be the pitch: Conquent has been creating Perl based applications since 1999. As we continue to support existing applications and develop new projects, it is important for us to find a flexible programmer who can work with our legacy Perl libraries and adapt to newer, Web 2.0 driven code. While well versed in Perl, the individual should be able to work with front-end development tools such as Photoshop to take designs and implement them in HTML, and also be able to work with an existing library of Perl, JavaScript, and mySQL queries and databases. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 16:54:42 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:54:42 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Job policy In-Reply-To: <20070705231022.GA17772@donaldrichardson.net> References: <20070705231022.GA17772@donaldrichardson.net> Message-ID: <200707051654.42854.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Donald Richardson # on Thursday 05 July 2007 04:10 pm: >I may get in trouble for this since it's not a 100% perl job. It's > more of a hybrid HTML/perl job. No trouble. Contributing members and long-time lurkers are mostly immune from disciplinary action. The rule is just: I kick you off of the list if you subscribe and immediately post a .net job from an address with something like "edgelink" in the domain. If your address actually has "edgelink" in the domain, I kick you off of the list until your company can demonstrate professionalism. There's some fine print to that like "depending on how loudly anybody with $name =~ m/Randal+/ complains", and of course I'll happily forward anything which is sent to me if I feel it is appropriate. And of course, pdx.pm reserves the right to slander or libel anyone who violates this or any other informal policy (The aforethreatened defamation of character may include, but is not limited to accusations of puppy/kitten deceasement.) --Eric -- I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. --E.B. White --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 16:59:09 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:59:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting next Wednesday Message-ID: <200707051659.09944.ewilhelm@cpan.org> 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. (At least I think this is the speaker/topic. Jeff?) speaker: Jeff Lavallee topic: My First CPAN Module -- Yahoo::Marketing blurb: I released my first CPAN module about a year ago - this presentation covers what I did & why, what worked, and what didn't. covering: o Why to make a module o Choosing a namespace o Module::Starter o Module::Build o Testing strategy and test tools o Kwalitee o Y::M Features o Mistakes Note: This distribution originally contained 60+ modules by my count, so Jeff is understating just a bit with the title -- it should be more like "my first 62 cpan modules" :-D --Eric -- http://pdx.pm.org From andy at petdance.com Thu Jul 5 17:01:44 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:01:44 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting next Wednesday In-Reply-To: <200707051659.09944.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707051659.09944.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Seven till Seven wrote: > covering: > o Why to make a module > o Choosing a namespace > o Module::Starter I'd love to see what critiques of Module::Starter you might have, or that the group discusses. xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 17:05:21 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 17:05:21 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON is right around the corner Message-ID: <200707051705.21285.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Hi all, Summer is really buzzing past here. Is anybody interested in out-of-town speakers and/or other activities during or around oscon? A pdx.pm carnival? Sunday night social? BOF/hackfests? Shirts/hats/buttons? Anything requiring three weeks of planning needs to start 2-5 days ago. A related reminder: If you're interested in helping with The Perl Foundation booth, please contact volunteer at perlfoundation.org. --Eric -- Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Thu Jul 5 19:03:09 2007 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:03:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting next Wednesday Message-ID: <20070706020309.GC23078@joshheumann.com> > I'd love to see what critiques of Module::Starter you might have, or > that the group discusses. Podcaaaast.... to the rescue! http://pdxpm.podasp.com/archive.html?pname=meetings.xml There aren't any dates on that page, though, so it's not clear if those are up to date. What's the word on podcasts? Are meetings still being recorded? J From darthsmily at verizon.net Thu Jul 5 19:14:29 2007 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:14:29 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468DA585.9010808@verizon.net> The absolute best memory checking I use is Honey 2.0 Honey..where are my keys? Honey, have you seen my wallet? and so on. DarthSmily Kevin Scaldeferri wrote: >Does anyone have a memory leak checking module they particularly >recommend at the moment? My required usage demands something that >doesn't require that I modify my code at all. I want to be able to >just load the module from the commandline when running unit tests. >So, just like you can run Devel::Cover on your unit tests like: > >HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES="-MDevel::Cover" make test > >I would like to do the same to check for memory leaks. > >Thanks for any suggestions. > > >-kevin >_______________________________________________ >Pdx-pm-list mailing list >Pdx-pm-list at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 20:26:34 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 20:26:34 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting next Wednesday In-Reply-To: <20070706020309.GC23078@joshheumann.com> References: <20070706020309.GC23078@joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <200707052026.35520.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Josh Heumann # on Thursday 05 July 2007 07:03 pm: http://pdxpm.podasp.com/archive.html?pname=meetings.xml >There aren't any dates on that page, though, There are now. >so it's not clear if those are up to date. They are now. > What's the word on podcasts? The word is "now". > Are meetings still being recorded? For now. Except I was late last month. Bad leader, bad! The smalltalk one is MIA due to an unacceptable microphone-projector-fan proximity factor. If anybody wants to try to clean it up, let me know. Or, if you all just want to listen to it with a steady high-pitch noise right down the middle, then I'll just put it out there. Or, I'll just put it out and somebody will fix it in anger? --Eric -- Peer's Law: The solution to the problem changes the problem. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rectangular.com Thu Jul 5 20:43:07 2007 From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 20:43:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting next Wednesday In-Reply-To: <200707052026.35520.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <20070706020309.GC23078@joshheumann.com> <200707052026.35520.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <12AB9598-88AC-4869-92EA-5831DACD9A2C@rectangular.com> On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:26 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > The smalltalk one is MIA due to an unacceptable microphone- > projector-fan > proximity factor. If anybody wants to try to clean it up, let me > know. I'll give it a listen. Marvin Humphrey Rectangular Research http://www.rectangular.com/ From peterson146 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 13:02:43 2007 From: peterson146 at gmail.com (Scott Peterson) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:02:43 -0600 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New to PDX area Message-ID: <40c0f25e0707061302x1237470dm5bffb10ba14557cf@mail.gmail.com> All, I will be moving to the Portland metro early next month. I frequent Perlmonks under the handle Scott7477 , and occasionally use.perl.org as scot . I look forward to possibly meeting up with other Perl "mongers" in the area to learn, and hopefully contribute something as well. Cheers, -- Scott http://redcloudresearch.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20070706/1445df2b/attachment.html From ben.hengst at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 14:32:12 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:32:12 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New to PDX area In-Reply-To: <40c0f25e0707061302x1237470dm5bffb10ba14557cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <40c0f25e0707061302x1237470dm5bffb10ba14557cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707061432i7924b135v1cb6aab79c18bf8f@mail.gmail.com> scott pre-welcome to the neighborhood. On 7/6/07, Scott Peterson wrote: > All, > I will be moving to the Portland metro early next month. I frequent > Perlmonks under the handle Scott7477, and > occasionally use.perl.org as scot. I look forward to possibly meeting up > with other Perl "mongers" in the area > to learn, and hopefully contribute something as well. > > Cheers, > > -- > Scott > http://redcloudresearch.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From me at donaldrichardson.net Fri Jul 6 16:03:49 2007 From: me at donaldrichardson.net (Donald Richardson) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 19:03:49 -0400 Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> Ooh, I'm supremely interested in the CPAN module release talk. I've had a module that I started working on with the intent to release to CPAN but was always daunted by the whole process. Unlike Yahoo::Marketing mine really is only one, lonely, sad, deceased kitten of a module. But dead kittens need love too. Am I right? From ben.hengst at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 16:53:35 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:53:35 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release In-Reply-To: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707061653r58062efeu4d5c404d2e173ba2@mail.gmail.com> yes even dead kitties need love, because they used to be fuzzy. On 7/6/07, Donald Richardson wrote: > Ooh, > > I'm supremely interested in the CPAN module release talk. I've had a module > that I started working on with the intent to release to CPAN but was always > daunted by the whole process. Unlike Yahoo::Marketing mine really is only > one, lonely, sad, deceased kitten of a module. But dead kittens need love > too. Am I right? > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From andy at petdance.com Fri Jul 6 16:56:05 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:56:05 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707061653r58062efeu4d5c404d2e173ba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <85ddf48b0707061653r58062efeu4d5c404d2e173ba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E47EB01-B230-44F6-80B4-5BDF387E0142@petdance.com> On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:53 PM, benh wrote: > yes even dead kitties need love, because they used to be fuzzy. They don't come when you call they don't chase squirrels at all Oh wait -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From randall at sonofhans.net Fri Jul 6 17:22:54 2007 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 17:22:54 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release In-Reply-To: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> Message-ID: On Jul 6, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Donald Richardson wrote: > ... mine really is only one, lonely, sad, deceased kitten of a > module. But dead kittens need love too. Am I right? no don, what dead kittens need is burial, and burial somewhere other than the "pet sematary" of CPAN. i'm sure you're module's lovely, but i can't resist a bad metaphor. :) r From masque at pobox.com Fri Jul 6 17:57:46 2007 From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:57:46 -0400 Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release In-Reply-To: <1E47EB01-B230-44F6-80B4-5BDF387E0142@petdance.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <85ddf48b0707061653r58062efeu4d5c404d2e173ba2@mail.gmail.com> <1E47EB01-B230-44F6-80B4-5BDF387E0142@petdance.com> Message-ID: <0ADA7FF2-5325-4CAB-9591-A6E1C59DF8B3@pobox.com> And that's just not much fun. Paul. On Jul 6, 2007, at 7:56 PM, Andy Lester wrote: > > On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:53 PM, benh wrote: > >> yes even dead kitties need love, because they used to be fuzzy. > > They don't come > when you call > they don't chase > squirrels at all > > Oh wait From MichaelRWolf at att.net Sat Jul 7 13:49:09 2007 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:49:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive [was RE: CPAN release] In-Reply-To: References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> Message-ID: <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> Bad metaphor or completely appropriate....??? Who wants to work with dead kittens? Not me. I don't even want to play with them. How do you (me, others) know which ones are playful, which ones are dangerous, which ones are dead, and which ones are up for heavy lifting?!? Personal attachment to your module aside, I'm not interested in the work it takes to teach new tricks to dead pets. I once had a job where I did have to make the flea ridden piece of code jump through hoops, but that was only because I spent way too much time coordinating the fleas to create an illusion. It's a nice hobby, but not a professional work habit. I'd rather work with live pets instead of the accumulated bugs. More apropos to my (tangential) point, how do newcomers know whether DateTime or Time::* or Date::* or TimeDate::* is more relevant to this millennium? (See below.) I guess the point I'm dancing around is vetting. CPAN is a great laboratory for creativity. Some of that creativity rocks. Some of it rots. Is it time to have a not-so-comprehensive Perl Archive??? Playfully, (but serious, too, for how else do we learn?) Michael Wolf P.S. I think DateTime::* is more relevant, but only because I attended an initial BOF at an OSCON a few years ago. How do newcomers know? P.P.S. Personally, I think that Damian's PBP is worth its weight in gold if only for his list of modules in the back. I think the 255 nuggets are gold (and silver and bronze), but I usually start a new project by looking at Appendix D - Recommended Modules and Utilities. I'll go with the recommendations of the "Master Chef" - Recommended Core Modules, Recommended CPAN Modules, and Utility Subroutines - instead of sorting through the "mass of 'der chaff". -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf at att.net > -----Original Message----- > From: pdx-pm-list-bounces+michaelrwolf=att.net at pm.org [mailto:pdx-pm-list- > bounces+michaelrwolf=att.net at pm.org] On Behalf Of Randall Hansen > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:23 PM > To: PDX PM > Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] CPAN release > > On Jul 6, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Donald Richardson wrote: > > > ... mine really is only one, lonely, sad, deceased kitten of a > > module. But dead kittens need love too. Am I right? > > no don, what dead kittens need is burial, and burial somewhere other > than the "pet sematary" of CPAN. > > i'm sure you're module's lovely, but i can't resist a bad metaphor. :) > > r > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat Jul 7 14:54:53 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:54:53 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> (Michael R. Wolf's message of "Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:49:09 -0700") References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> Message-ID: <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael R Wolf writes: Michael> I guess the point I'm dancing around is vetting. CPAN is a great Michael> laboratory for creativity. Some of that creativity rocks. Some of Michael> it rots. Is it time to have a not-so-comprehensive Perl Archive??? Besides the reviews, smoke tests, manpage comments, bug reports, and googling for the articles written about a module, what ELSE do you want? If you're asking for a moderated CPAN, are you prepared to be the first full-time volunteer to vet the 30 modules per day submitted to the CPAN? Really - I don't know what *else* we can add. Experts have published their opinions... ANYONE can publish a score or a review or manpage note or bug report easily through the existing tools. What ELSE do you want for free? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 18:52:09 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:52:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <200707071852.10263.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Randal L. Schwartz # on Saturday 07 July 2007 02:54 pm: >Besides the reviews, smoke tests, manpage comments, bug reports, and > googling for the articles written about a module, what ELSE do you > want? I would sure love to have some kind of time-saver. I'm not sure vetting is it. I think more powerful search would be a good thing. How do we get the number of bugs (fixed or not) recentness of updates, ratings, etc visible in the search results? Maybe it's just my web 3.0 bias, but more client-side functionality would be super. Especially if it integrated the ratings/reviews/etc with the search. Possibly also a way to add "favorite" authors and "used by" ranking to the result order. For instance, there are a few authors whose code I would like to see ranked higher in the search, and I suppose it wouldn't hurt to be able to mark results with my not-so-favorable opinions of the author (e.g. if I read your code before and it made me sick, I will put off reading it again.) Of course, that could get taken personally far too easily, so would have to be sort of your own private rankings or otherwise obscured if it were a shared deal. One thing that certainly seems to be missing is the "used by what?" variable. If a module is used by one or more modules that I'm already using, or used by a high-ranked (for me) author, I'll give it a read. Might be nice to have a "mixes tabs and spaces" variable or some other sort of craftsmanship indicator in the search results too. >What ELSE do you want for free? Lots :-D --Eric -- "You can't win. You can't break even. You can't quit." --Ginsberg's Restatement of the Three Laws of Thermodynamics --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From tkil at scrye.com Sat Jul 7 23:02:17 2007 From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 00:02:17 -0600 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <200707071852.10263.ewilhelm@cpan.org> (Eric Wilhelm's message of "Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:52:09 -0700") References: <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <200707071852.10263.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Wilhelm writes: Eric> I would sure love to have some kind of time-saver. I'm not sure Eric> vetting is it. One problem you will run into is this: there is no one definition of "best". Various criteria that may or may not apply to your current project: * self-contained vs. factored / many pre-reqs * interface: narrow or wide? * portability (*nix vs. win, also possibly 32bit v. 64bit) * pure perl vs. XS/SWIG bits? * effiency / shortcuts vs. expensive accuracy * old and established, or new and cutting-edge? * API stability? * interface: procedural, OOP, functional, more? * interface: explicit vs. implicit/magical * interface: framework vs. standalone tools * internationalization support? available localizations? * ease of use vs. power? * license? * compatibility with older perl installs * support / living devel/user community * extensibility? * flexbility / esoteric features Yes, there are obviously some here that are not true dichotomies; there are also some that don't apply to every module. The take-away point is that there is no one right answer; any "more powerful search" will have to accomodate at least the above factors, though, to be useful. Just something to think about, t. From ben.hengst at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 07:58:28 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:58:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707080758t3bca7afcq3c8561b133bea475@mail.gmail.com> I guess the only thing that I would ~like~ is something in CPAN.pm that reported "downloaded" I know that this would never fly, but it's kinda interesting data to see what everyone else find and uses, whats popular and whats not. It would also have the same effect as Michael's request for vetting. I personally hate the idea of vetting, yes hate, sends shivers up my spine kinda hate. The code that is shared on CPAN has so many more uses then what was planned. I don't know how many times I have wanted to do something, and end up looking at the src for some module and learn a new code trick. then realize that I've been going about things completely backwards and decide to skip the module. I still learned something from the module, even though I didn't 'use' it. second would people please use the ratings feature, I know that I'm just a guilty of skipping it but this is the best way that we have so far to go about a positive-vetting process. I dont know if theres anything in the search to float better ratings to the top? (project?) Anywho thats whats on my 'ELSE' wish list Randal. On 7/7/07, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael R Wolf writes: > > Michael> I guess the point I'm dancing around is vetting. CPAN is a great > Michael> laboratory for creativity. Some of that creativity rocks. Some of > Michael> it rots. Is it time to have a not-so-comprehensive Perl Archive??? > > Besides the reviews, smoke tests, manpage comments, bug reports, and googling > for the articles written about a module, what ELSE do you want? > > If you're asking for a moderated CPAN, are you prepared to be the first > full-time volunteer to vet the 30 modules per day submitted to the CPAN? > > Really - I don't know what *else* we can add. Experts have published their > opinions... ANYONE can publish a score or a review or manpage note or bug > report easily through the existing tools. > > What ELSE do you want for free? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From marvin at rectangular.com Sun Jul 8 08:37:28 2007 From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 08:37:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707080758t3bca7afcq3c8561b133bea475@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <85ddf48b0707080758t3bca7afcq3c8561b133bea475@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2007, at 7:58 AM, benh wrote: > I dont know if theres > anything in the search to float better ratings to the top? (project?) If I were to re-implement the search (something I've considered many times), I wouldn't do that. The information is too unreliable. A small bump as a reward for a good Kwalitee score might be appropriate, though. Marvin Humphrey Rectangular Research http://www.rectangular.com/ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 09:12:46 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:12:46 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707080758t3bca7afcq3c8561b133bea475@mail.gmail.com> References: <861wfjev6a.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <85ddf48b0707080758t3bca7afcq3c8561b133bea475@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707080912.46322.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from benh # on Sunday 08 July 2007 07:58 am: >second would people please use the ratings feature, I know that I'm >just a guilty of skipping it but this is the best way that we have so >far to go about a positive-vetting process. Hmm, probably the only thing that's going to get me to consistently submit ratings and reviews is a voice-activated swear detector. Barring that, something that reads the META.yml files from my dists and e-mails me once a month (no less than 2 weeks after the dependency appears) asking for reviews which I can then e-mail back. Or possibly, some kind of temporary ranking mechanism that actually *helps* me search. It would probably still need to be able to nag me a week later. When searching for a module, I'll have lots of bad ratings to hand out and maybe a good one after trying one in my code. Having the data and interfaces spread across multiple sites makes it less usable (and search.cpan.org IMO does a poor job of aggregating it.) But of course, having one site that does everything would get us back into vetting, etc. I think a "perl infrastructure" web API would definitely help. --Eric -- hobgoblin n 1: (folklore) a small grotesque supernatural creature that makes trouble for human beings --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From schwern at pobox.com Sun Jul 8 12:23:29 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:23:29 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive [was RE: CPAN release] In-Reply-To: <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> Message-ID: <469139B1.9090108@pobox.com> Tags. The most dominant organizational tool on the web. Tags, like democracy, are the worst form of organization except for all the other alternatives. Let's add them to CPAN modules. One of the major problems with CPAN is that the module name has to be all of: unique, short and also help find the module. This is too much. The name is also hierarchical and hierarchies are a poor way to model the world. So lets add tags to CPAN modules. Its as simple as putting: tag: [www, robot] into META.yml and then convincing search.cpan.org to read that. From schwern at pobox.com Sun Jul 8 15:59:42 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:59:42 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki Message-ID: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> You are all cordially invited to hack the hell out of the Perl 5 Wiki which I just made up. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ Its empty. Throw stuff in. Anything related to Perl 5. Tribal knowledge. Official knowledge. Content! Add content! From masque at pobox.com Sun Jul 8 16:45:14 2007 From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:45:14 -0400 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive [was RE: CPAN release] In-Reply-To: <469139B1.9090108@pobox.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net> <000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <469139B1.9090108@pobox.com> Message-ID: I'm a fan of this idea. Beats using hierarchy alone by a mile. Paul. On Jul 8, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > Tags. The most dominant organizational tool on the web. Tags, like > democracy, are the worst form of organization except for all the other > alternatives. Let's add them to CPAN modules. > > One of the major problems with CPAN is that the module name has to > be all of: > unique, short and also help find the module. This is too much. The > name is > also hierarchical and hierarchies are a poor way to model the world. > > So lets add tags to CPAN modules. Its as simple as putting: > > tag: [www, robot] > > into META.yml and then convincing search.cpan.org to read that. > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From me at donaldrichardson.net Sun Jul 8 19:04:03 2007 From: me at donaldrichardson.net (Donald Richardson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:04:03 -0400 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Dead Kittens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070709020401.GA13857@donaldrichardson.net> > Bad metaphor or completely appropriate....??? > > Who wants to work with dead kittens? Not me. I don't even want to play > with them. > > How do you (me, others) know which ones are playful, which ones are > dangerous, which ones are dead, and which ones are up for heavy lifting?!? My reference to my module being a dead kitten was a playful metaphor used self-deprecatingly. I definitely would not submit something to CPAN that does not offer something new and valuable to the perl programmer. I just meant that the problem domain, and hence the amount of work and thought required, is much smaller for my module than it would be for something like Yahoo::Marketing. Perhaps, the metaphor wasn't appropriate, but I will sacrifice appropriate for funny any day. In the future, people will reminisce about these postings and say, "Remember that guy and the dead kittens? What the hell did he have against them?" And that, my friends, is as beautiful a remembering as anyone can hope for. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Jul 8 19:40:03 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:40:03 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> (Michael G. Schwern's message of "Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:59:42 -0700") References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> Message-ID: <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael G Schwern writes: Michael> You are all cordially invited to hack the hell out of the Perl 5 Wiki which I Michael> just made up. Michael> http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ Michael> Its empty. Throw stuff in. Anything related to Perl 5. Tribal knowledge. Michael> Official knowledge. Content! Add content! I realize that everyone is free to start whatever wiki they want, but given that none of the Australian Wiki, the Wikibooks Wiki, and the Wikia wiki have gathered a critical mass of support, do you expect this one to be more succcessful, and if so, why? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Jul 8 19:42:24 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:42:24 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> (Randal L. Schwartz's message of "Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:40:03 -0700") References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86r6nib8mn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Randal" == Randal L Schwartz writes: Randal> I realize that everyone is free to start whatever wiki they want, but given Randal> that none of the Australian Wiki, the Wikibooks Wiki, and the Wikia wiki Randal> have gathered a critical mass of support, do you expect this one Randal> to be more succcessful, and if so, why? Ooh. I take that back. perl.net.au has had 15 changes in the past 7 days. This far exceeds the other two. Sorry for not checking first. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From andy at petdance.com Sun Jul 8 20:30:05 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:30:05 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> On Jul 8, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > I realize that everyone is free to start whatever wiki they want, > but given > that none of the Australian Wiki, the Wikibooks Wiki, and the Wikia > wiki > have gathered a critical mass of support, do you expect this one > to be more succcessful, and if so, why? Why does it matter if he does or doesn't expect it to be more successful? -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Jul 8 20:32:18 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:32:18 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> (Andy Lester's message of "Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:30:05 -0500") References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> Message-ID: <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Lester writes: Andy> Why does it matter if he does or doesn't expect it to be more Andy> successful? If he doesn't expect it to be successful, it's merely a distraction. If he does, I'm curious about the plan. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From andy at petdance.com Sun Jul 8 20:36:21 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:36:21 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:32 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > If he doesn't expect it to be successful, it's merely a distraction. A distraction from what? Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best planning. Things work largely by serendipity. It's not a distraction to try try again. It's a different platform, shepherded by a different person, at a different point in time? Successful ventures can't be planned out like requirements documents for the space shuttle. Shit happens at random. You take some swings at the ball and sometimes you connect and sometimes you don't. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From chromatic at wgz.org Sun Jul 8 20:39:52 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:39:52 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <200707082039.52511.chromatic@wgz.org> On Sunday 08 July 2007 20:36:21 Andy Lester wrote: > Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best ? > planning. I count only one CPAN and dozens of attempts to create module SDKs. -- c From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Jul 8 20:40:47 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:40:47 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: (Andy Lester's message of "Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:36:21 -0500") References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Lester writes: Andy> A distraction from what? The ones already established. If they didn't get critical mass, it's more useful to keep pointing at them until they do than to set up Yet Another Try. A wiki is successful when it has a critical mass of eyeballs. Too Many Wikis means none of them succeed. I was just curious about whether Schwern was deliberately ignoring the existing ones in favor of "Not Invented Here", or actually had a general plan for success to get the critical eyeball count in place. Or something else in mind entirely. If it's Just Another Wiki, I'll ignore it, even to the point of not talking about it, or even actively talking negative about it. But if there's a plan to make it work, I'll help. Andy> Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best planning. I'll respectfully disagree, but if this is your philosophy, please don't invite me to be on one of your projects. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From andy at petdance.com Sun Jul 8 20:41:44 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:41:44 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <200707082039.52511.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <200707082039.52511.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <418FF28F-B03A-4CFE-ACA3-7241EDA8D98B@petdance.com> On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:39 PM, chromatic wrote: >> Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best >> planning. > > I count only one CPAN and dozens of attempts to create module SDKs. And I would suggest that the CPAN is not the best it could be. The module SDKs are better than h2xs, and they came about because h2xs is never touched any more. Throwing things against the wall to see what sticks is the very nature of open source. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From andy at petdance.com Sun Jul 8 20:44:24 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:44:24 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <3813A273-84EA-4578-B3BE-B4B25B0A4202@petdance.com> > Andy> Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best > planning. > > I'll respectfully disagree, but if this is your philosophy, please > don't > invite me to be on one of your projects. :) I didn't say that planning wasn't important. However, the amount of planning and centralized organization only takes a project so far. Sometimes it's just dumb luck. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From chromatic at wgz.org Sun Jul 8 20:46:15 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:46:15 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <418FF28F-B03A-4CFE-ACA3-7241EDA8D98B@petdance.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <200707082039.52511.chromatic@wgz.org> <418FF28F-B03A-4CFE-ACA3-7241EDA8D98B@petdance.com> Message-ID: <200707082046.15712.chromatic@wgz.org> On Sunday 08 July 2007 20:41:44 Andy Lester wrote: > On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:39 PM, chromatic wrote: > >> Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best > >> planning. > > > > I count only one CPAN and dozens of attempts to create module SDKs. > > And I would suggest that the CPAN is not the best it could be. > > The module SDKs are better than h2xs, and they came about because > h2xs is never touched any more. I mean the SDK bundles, of course. You know, the "Why doesn't someone just pick the best XML or DBI or CGI or Templating or ORM modules and make a recommended bundle" morass that comes up every 14 months. ... and I used h2xs a couple of months ago. -- c From schwern at pobox.com Sun Jul 8 21:27:35 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:27:35 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4691B937.8070701@pobox.com> Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael G Schwern writes: > > Michael> You are all cordially invited to hack the hell out of the Perl 5 Wiki which I > Michael> just made up. > Michael> http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ > > Michael> Its empty. Throw stuff in. Anything related to Perl 5. Tribal knowledge. > Michael> Official knowledge. Content! Add content! > > I realize that everyone is free to start whatever wiki they want, but given > that none of the Australian Wiki, the Wikibooks Wiki, and the Wikia wiki > have gathered a critical mass of support, do you expect this one > to be more succcessful, and if so, why? Some are the times to ask why. Some are the times it is better to ask why not. The effort is low. The price of failure is low. If it succeeds the returns will be high. This is a time not to ask why, but why not. I don't see any real reason why not [1], so I went ahead and created it. It is done. Perl 5 needs a place to collect communal information, that much is obvious to anyone. Here it is. If this doesn't work we'll try something else. And something after that. And again after that. Every moment spent writing about why the wiki should not work is a moment which could have been spent editing the wiki and helping it succeed. Or editing some other wiki and helping it succeed. [1] The "it'll distract from similar projects" argument is generally speculative and depressive to motivation. Its a fine excuse to do nothing. If all those other wikis are going so strong then this new one is no threat and it will die a just and quiet death. From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 23:47:03 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:47:03 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Dead Kittens In-Reply-To: <20070709020401.GA13857@donaldrichardson.net> References: <20070709020401.GA13857@donaldrichardson.net> Message-ID: <200707082347.04112.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Donald Richardson # on Sunday 08 July 2007 07:04 pm: >And that, my friends, is as beautiful a remembering as anyone >can hope for. ? Except maybe "hey, aren't you the zombie kid that said 'I like turtles.'?" --Eric -- Atavism n: The recurrence of any peculiarity or disease of an ancestor in a subsequent generation, usually due to genetic recombination. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 23:52:21 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:52:21 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <200707082046.15712.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <418FF28F-B03A-4CFE-ACA3-7241EDA8D98B@petdance.com> <200707082046.15712.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <200707082352.22023.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from chromatic # on Sunday 08 July 2007 08:46 pm: >... and I used h2xs a couple of months ago. I used it a few months ago. But ... to make some xs code. It actually does a fairly decent job at that. Strangely, it spit out some weird Makefile.PL thingy, and some other junk that went in the bucket. --Eric -- [...proprietary software is better than gpl because...] "There is value in having somebody you can write checks to, and they fix bugs." --Mike McNamara (president of a commercial software company) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From darthsmily at verizon.net Mon Jul 9 00:03:21 2007 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:03:21 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4691DDB9.2040808@verizon.net> " Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best planning. Things work largely by serendipity. " Wow, now that is some interesting philisophical insite to the foundations of your personal universe. One I disagree with, but only in a beer drinking casual conversation way. Because this is the internet, and I have had my ass chewed for giving compliments TWICE in as many weeks, I want to be very, very clear: The remark was not inflametory, derogatory, or meant in any insulting way, at all. Just an observation of one comment. darthsmily Andy Lester wrote: >On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:32 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > > >>If he doesn't expect it to be successful, it's merely a distraction. >> >> > >A distraction from what? > >Projects succeed based on the number of tries, not the best >planning. Things work largely by serendipity. It's not a >distraction to try try again. It's a different platform, shepherded >by a different person, at a different point in time? > >Successful ventures can't be planned out like requirements documents >for the space shuttle. Shit happens at random. You take some swings >at the ball and sometimes you connect and sometimes you don't. You >miss 100% of the shots you don't take. > > >-- >Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Pdx-pm-list mailing list >Pdx-pm-list at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > From mikeraz at patch.com Mon Jul 9 06:55:12 2007 From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:55:12 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > Andy> A distraction from what? > The ones already established. If they didn't get critical mass, it's more > useful to keep pointing at them until they do than to set up Yet Another Try. > > A wiki is successful when it has a critical mass of eyeballs. A relevant question at this point, is a wiki (needed|beneficial) at all. If, Randal, you agree that it is which one(s) are your eyeballs supporting? (All, sorry about the rhetorical question.) Your post about the recent changes rate suggests you are not very interested in any form of Perl wiki. Schwern demonstrably believes one is (needed|beneficial). Implicitly he also believes the one he set up has something better to offer than the others. Perhaps something just as simple as being in the perlfoundation.org web space, nice address that. -- Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity http://www.patch.com/words/ The fortune cookie says: "Let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!" -- The Ghostbusters From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jul 9 08:58:17 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> (Michael Rasmussen's message of "Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:55:12 -0700") References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> Message-ID: <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Rasmussen writes: Michael> A relevant question at this point, is a wiki (needed|beneficial) at Michael> all. If, Randal, you agree that it is which one(s) are your eyeballs Michael> supporting? (All, sorry about the rhetorical question.) Your post Michael> about the recent changes rate suggests you are not very interested in Michael> any form of Perl wiki. Well, I have made some contributions to all three of the wikis I've mentioned, but I stopped when I saw that there weren't a lot of other contributions, as my contributions were primarily corrections, and if there's nothing changing, there's nothing to correct. I even requested the formation of perl.wikia.org, although only halfheartedly. Michael> Schwern demonstrably believes one is (needed|beneficial). I'm not sure about that, hence my question. It may be that he set it up "because he could". As in the "Build it, and they will come" sort of way. But that doesn't make for a successful wiki... you have to promote it, and have people who can manage vandalism, and have software that makes watching recent changes of the pages you're interested in very easy to help manage the vandalism. (Aside: I think that's why wikimedia has succeeded where others have not, because I can watch a select set of recent changes, not needing to watch the whole thing. Can Socialtext do the same?) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From jshirley at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:00:46 2007 From: jshirley at gmail.com (J. Shirley) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:00:46 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <756703690707091000g3f842026mce553c3b0159c9c5@mail.gmail.com> On 7/9/07, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Rasmussen writes: > > Michael> A relevant question at this point, is a wiki (needed|beneficial) at > Michael> all. If, Randal, you agree that it is which one(s) are your eyeballs > Michael> supporting? (All, sorry about the rhetorical question.) Your post > Michael> about the recent changes rate suggests you are not very interested in > Michael> any form of Perl wiki. > > Well, I have made some contributions to all three of the wikis I've mentioned, > but I stopped when I saw that there weren't a lot of other contributions, as > my contributions were primarily corrections, and if there's nothing changing, > there's nothing to correct. I even requested the formation of perl.wikia.org, > although only halfheartedly. > > Michael> Schwern demonstrably believes one is (needed|beneficial). > > I'm not sure about that, hence my question. It may be that he set it up > "because he could". As in the "Build it, and they will come" sort of way. > But that doesn't make for a successful wiki... you have to promote it, and > have people who can manage vandalism, and have software that makes watching > recent changes of the pages you're interested in very easy to help manage the > vandalism. (Aside: I think that's why wikimedia has succeeded where others > have not, because I can watch a select set of recent changes, not needing to > watch the whole thing. Can Socialtext do the same?) > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > I'm in favor of this new wiki in that it feels "right" as a communal place. Much like jobs.perl.org is the place to go for finding Perl candidates (and has given my company better results than any other job board). The fact that it is attached to the perlfoundation, and not part of some larger community, you're more likely to get people entrenched in the community or desiring to interact with the specific community, rather than someone "stumbling" into it. Depending upon perspective, that could be better or worse. I view it as better because those who are questing to find the information would provide better content and feedback than someone simply browsing.ght). And on a side note, I've added some Catalyst content, since that's my community point of interest. It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out, though :) -Jay (Apologies to Randal to replying to him first, rather than the list... I blame my email client!) -- J. Shirley :: jshirley at gmail.com :: Killing two stones with one bird... http://www.toeat.com From ingy at ingy.net Tue Jul 10 11:55:31 2007 From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:55:31 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070710185531.GA5860@ttul.org> On 09/07/07 08:58 -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Rasmussen writes: > Michael> Schwern demonstrably believes one is (needed|beneficial). > > I'm not sure about that, hence my question. It may be that he set it up > "because he could". As in the "Build it, and they will come" sort of way. > But that doesn't make for a successful wiki... you have to promote it, and The promotion seems to be happening. I'm aware of it already. :) > have people who can manage vandalism, and have software that makes watching This wiki is LoginToEdit which should minimize the spam. > recent changes of the pages you're interested in very easy to help manage the > vandalism. (Aside: I think that's why wikimedia has succeeded where others > have not, because I can watch a select set of recent changes, not needing to > watch the whole thing. Can Socialtext do the same?) If you login to the wiki, you'll notice a grey star in the upper right corner of each page. Click on it (it turns blue) and you've added it to your watchlist. If you go to the watchlist page: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?action=display_watchlist then you'll see an RSS link that you can use to follow pages. Cheers, Ingy PS Schwern: When I login I get redirected to: http://www.perlfoundation.org/ instead of: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ Please fix. Cheers, Ingy From schwern at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 13:42:32 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:42:32 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <20070710185531.GA5860@ttul.org> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070710185531.GA5860@ttul.org> Message-ID: <4693EF38.2090905@pobox.com> Ingy dot Net wrote: > PS Schwern: When I login I get redirected to: > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/ > > instead of: > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ > > Please fix. Kirsten's on it. For now just use Login + Edit. From schwern at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 13:42:32 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:42:32 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl 5 Wiki In-Reply-To: <20070710185531.GA5860@ttul.org> References: <46916C5E.7030006@pobox.com> <86vecub8qk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4C325DB4-BA63-4766-8BA2-697A71E6DBFF@petdance.com> <86hcoeb6bh.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86644ub5xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070709135512.GB2991@patch.com> <861wfhbmcm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070710185531.GA5860@ttul.org> Message-ID: <4693EF38.2090905@pobox.com> Ingy dot Net wrote: > PS Schwern: When I login I get redirected to: > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/ > > instead of: > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/ > > Please fix. Kirsten's on it. For now just use Login + Edit. From schwern at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 19:50:36 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:50:36 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Firefly, tonight, 10pm at the Mission Theater... FREE! Message-ID: <4694457C.5010402@pobox.com> The first episode of "Firefly" is playing tonight at the Mission Theater (beer, pizza) at 10pm, and every Tuesday until the whole series is shown. At two episodes a week this will, sadly, take just seven weeks. I will be attending. And its freeeeeeeeeeeeeee! If you've never seen Firefly, now is your chance. When it came out it raised the bar of sci-fi TV shows to its new high (the new Galactica and Dr. Who come to mind). For more details see: http://serenitytales.typepad.com/fireflymission/ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 11:21:00 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:21:00 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! Message-ID: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. speaker: Jeff Lavallee topic: My First CPAN Module -- Yahoo::Marketing blurb: I released my first CPAN module about a year ago - this presentation covers what I did & why, what worked, and what didn't. covering: o Why to make a module o Choosing a namespace o Module::Starter o Module::Build o Testing strategy and test tools o Kwalitee o Y::M Features o Mistakes Note: This distribution originally contained 60+ modules by my count, so Jeff is understating just a bit with the title -- it should be more like "my first 62 cpan modules" :-D --Eric -- http://pdx.pm.org From alan at clueserver.org Wed Jul 11 13:12:21 2007 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Pdx-pm] Anyone have info on OSCAMP? Message-ID: Is there going to be an OSCAMP this year? Will it be for both OSCON and the Ubintu Live? Just wondering. I had not seen anything about it yet. (Or I just missed it.) -- "ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined. ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..." - Alan Cox From akf at aracnet.com Wed Jul 11 13:28:28 2007 From: akf at aracnet.com (Amy K. Farrell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:28:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Anyone have info on OSCAMP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070711202828.GA20616@aracnet.com> http://oscamp.org/ Note the Registration instructions: Be sure to also go to the OSCON registration page and register for a free Exhibit Hall pass using the discount code os07oscamp I hear this code gets you free lunch. - Amy On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:12:21PM -0700, alan wrote: > Is there going to be an OSCAMP this year? Will it be for both OSCON and > the Ubintu Live? > > Just wondering. I had not seen anything about it yet. (Or I just missed > it.) > > -- > "ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined. > ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct > assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..." > - Alan Cox > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list -- A.K. Farrell From chromatic at wgz.org Wed Jul 11 13:31:17 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:31:17 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Anyone have info on OSCAMP? In-Reply-To: <20070711202828.GA20616@aracnet.com> References: <20070711202828.GA20616@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200707111331.17753.chromatic@wgz.org> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 13:28:28 Amy K. Farrell wrote: > I hear this code gets you free lunch. If it's the same OCC lunch as I've had at every OCC event, you get what you pay for. The cookies are okay though! -- c From teknotus at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:40:37 2007 From: teknotus at gmail.com (Daniel Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:40:37 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Anyone have info on OSCAMP? In-Reply-To: <20070711202828.GA20616@aracnet.com> References: <20070711202828.GA20616@aracnet.com> Message-ID: > Be sure to also go to the OSCON registration page and register for a free Exhibit Hall pass using the discount code os07oscamp > > I hear this code gets you free lunch. Last year it did on the registration page, but then the OCC staff forbid anyone with an OSCAMP badge from picking up their free lunch. So there was a huge pile of unclaimed lunches. I had to get someone with a higher ranking badge to get mine for me. I wonder how many lunches they had to throw out because of the miscommunications. Must have been at least 100 that I saw when they carted them away. -- teknotus Take Notice From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:43:36 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:43:36 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <659b9ea30707111129n4f4a7192w7eecb6b235905719@mail.gmail.com> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <659b9ea30707111129n4f4a7192w7eecb6b235905719@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707111343.36706.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Chris Dawson # on Wednesday 11 July 2007 11:29 am: >I'm trying to switch another meeting to a different day, but will not > be able to attend tonight. ?I hope this gets recorded and hope things > are well with you. Should do just fine. My little red recorder has been doing well. I also went through the podcasts and put datestamps on the titles. Thanks for setting that up. BTW, did you see the $130 decTOP boxes? --Eric -- Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. --Voltaire --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From pdxpm at punch.net Wed Jul 11 13:49:06 2007 From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:49:06 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <200707111343.36706.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <659b9ea30707111129n4f4a7192w7eecb6b235905719@mail.gmail.com> <200707111343.36706.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <46954242.5000503@punch.net> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Chris Dawson > # on Wednesday 11 July 2007 11:29 am: > >> I'm trying to switch another meeting to a different day, but will not >> be able to attend tonight. I hope this gets recorded and hope things >> are well with you. > > Should do just fine. My little red recorder has been doing well. I > also went through the podcasts and put datestamps on the titles. > Thanks for setting that up. > > BTW, did you see the $130 decTOP boxes? > $99? http://store.dataevolution.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DT%2D7001 Tom From MichaelRWolf at att.net Wed Jul 11 14:02:56 2007 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:02:56 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <000001c7c3fe$df075e20$0500a8c0@mlaptop> Will anyone be raffling off dead kittens? :-) -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf at att.net From alan at clueserver.org Wed Jul 11 14:19:05 2007 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <000001c7c3fe$df075e20$0500a8c0@mlaptop> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <000001c7c3fe$df075e20$0500a8c0@mlaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Will anyone be raffling off dead kittens? I have a bunch of live ones? Want a couple? -- "ANSI C says access to the padding fields of a struct is undefined. ANSI C also says that struct assignment is a memcpy. Therefore struct assignment in ANSI C is a violation of ANSI C..." - Alan Cox From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 14:21:55 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:21:55 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <46954242.5000503@punch.net> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200707111343.36706.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <46954242.5000503@punch.net> Message-ID: <200707111421.55340.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Tom Heady # on Wednesday 11 July 2007 01:49 pm: >> BTW, did you see the $130 decTOP boxes? > >$99? >http://store.dataevolution.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DT%2D7001 Bah, that wasn't supposed to go to the list. But anyway yes they're $140 with shipping. The $99 advertised price is just a scam (might actually cost you $220 if you get a defective one and have to pay shipping both ways :-D) --Eric -- "Insert random misquote here" --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From pdxpm at punch.net Wed Jul 11 15:34:20 2007 From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:34:20 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] July 11th Meeting tonight! In-Reply-To: <200707111421.55340.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707111121.01038.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200707111343.36706.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <46954242.5000503@punch.net> <200707111421.55340.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <46955AEC.6000004@punch.net> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Tom Heady > # on Wednesday 11 July 2007 01:49 pm: > >>> BTW, did you see the $130 decTOP boxes? >> $99? >> http://store.dataevolution.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DT%2D7001 > > Bah, that wasn't supposed to go to the list. > > But anyway yes they're $140 with shipping. The $99 advertised price is > just a scam (might actually cost you $220 if you get a defective one > and have to pay shipping both ways :-D) > I thought that too, but when I went to checkout, it had this: Subtotal: $99.00 Shipping & Handling: $0.00 Tax: $0.00 Total: $99.00 Free Shipping? From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 00:46:35 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:46:35 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <97AAAF1A-F576-47F0-83D4-4E87431B6BFA@scaldeferri.com> References: <200707040047.13285.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <97AAAF1A-F576-47F0-83D4-4E87431B6BFA@scaldeferri.com> Message-ID: <200707120046.35498.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Kevin Scaldeferri # on Wednesday 04 July 2007 10:38 am: >As I mentioned at the end of my last message, there is no "the ? >code". ?Essentially, I'm designing Makefiles for general use. > >However, the last time I was trying to do memory leak debugging of ? >Perl, a couple years ago, the tools which only detected object leaks ? >proved not to find anything in the codebase I was working with. ?The ? >tools which detected general variable leaks found lots of stuff. ? Following up on tonight's discussion -- How spread-out is the reference allocation and ref-counting in the core? Is it possible to hook into it with XS (or a miniperl of sorts) and track the allocations (possibly corollating them to line# in the source)? --Eric -- Issues of control, repair, improvement, cost, or just plain understandability all come down strongly in favor of open source solutions to complex problems of any sort. --Robert G. Brown --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 09:50:54 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: ANOUNCEMENT: PLUG Advanced Topics Meeting July 16th Message-ID: <200707120950.54444.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Always a good thing to learn more about filesystems. One day, parrot will have its own filesystem just like smalltalk. Bwahaha! ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: [PLUG-ANNOUNCE] ANOUNCEMENT: PLUG Advanced Topics Meeting July 16th Date: Wednesday 11 July 2007 09:34 pm From: Alan To: plug at pdxlinux.org, PLUG-announce at pdxlinux.org PLUG Advanced Topics Meeting Date: July 16th 2007 Time: 7pm Location: Jax Bar 826 SW 2nd Avenue Portland, Oregon Speaker: Val Henson Topic: Chunkfs: Repair-driven file system design Most file systems are designed without thought for what happens when the file system inevitably becomes corrupted and needs repair. Chunkfs is an example of repair-driven file system design: a file system designed from the ground up to be swiftly and efficiently repairable. A chunkfs file system is divided into multiple chunkfs of about 1GB in size which can be checked and repaired with only limited, minor reference to metadata in other chunkfs. Bio: Val Henson is a Linux file systems consultant in Portland, Oregon. She was one of the architects and implementors of Sun's ZFS file system. She has worked in the field of operating systems for 8 years, focusing on Linux. She is the author of the "Kernel Hacker's Bookshelf" series in Linux Weekly News. Her hobbies include hiking and maintaining the TCP/IP Drinking Game. Usual meeting rules apply. _______________________________________________ PLUG-announce mailing list PLUG-announce at lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce ------------------------------------------------------- -- http://pdx.pm.org From chromatic at wgz.org Thu Jul 12 10:14:23 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:14:23 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Recommendations for memory leak checking? In-Reply-To: <200707120046.35498.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <97AAAF1A-F576-47F0-83D4-4E87431B6BFA@scaldeferri.com> <200707120046.35498.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200707121014.23811.chromatic@wgz.org> On Thursday 12 July 2007 00:46:35 Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Following up on tonight's discussion -- How spread-out is the reference > allocation and ref-counting in the core? Very. > Is it possible to hook into > it with XS (or a miniperl of sorts) and track the allocations (possibly > corollating them to line# in the source)? I suppose it's possible to modify all of the macros that fiddle with refcounts to track this, but getting all of them might be a chore. It's doable, but it would take some work. -- c From krisb at ring.org Thu Jul 12 13:55:03 2007 From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl/Tk fileevent on Win32 Message-ID: I am trying to use fileevent on Win32, not having much luck yet. I found this which implies that you need to use polling: http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.lang.perl.tk/msg/f78f7fa22dcb7047 and I found this which implied that the problems have not been fixed recently: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=581274 Has anyone used fileevent on Win32? Thanks. -Kris From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com Thu Jul 12 14:40:05 2007 From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:40:05 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] PostgreSQL Day - July 22, 2007 Message-ID: <2BC8301C-1521-46FA-A51A-98B9DCD8F045@chrisking.com> Hello! PDXPUG is organizing a day of PostgreSQL talks, followed by a party sponsored by Command Prompt, Inc. We're now trying to figure out how many people to expect. We have a room at the Convention Center (through the generosity of O'Reilly), and at least five talks. Attendance is free, but if you're feeling generous, the PostgreSQL Fund has asked for $20 donations. I'm leveraging Audrey's wiki site to gather "registrations" a la BarCamp: http://pdxgroups.pbwiki.com/PDXPUG-PostgreSQL-Day Also, if you have any suggestions or have something specific you'd like to hear about, let me know. Thanks! -selena, your friendly PDXPUG organizer From schwern at pobox.com Fri Jul 13 00:04:00 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:04:00 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer" July 20th Message-ID: <469723E0.7060603@pobox.com> Hello, I hope the Ruby folks don't mind the cross-post. My name is Michael Schwern and I'm giving a tutorial at OSCON this year entitled "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer". The Friday before OSCON I will be doing a practice run at Free Geek. You are invited. What: "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer" practice run Where: Free Geek 1731 SE 10th Avenue http://freegeek.org When: Friday, July 20th 6pm - 10pm The official description of the tutorial is here: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/13216 In short, the tutorial is about all the things they don't teach you in computer science. Documentation, testing, refactoring, testing, task management... all taught in ways that are: * Easy to learn * Easy to do * Hard to get wrong * Able to be done by one person In addition I plan to cover "People", something programmers have a hard time with, with topics such as: * How To Learn * How Not To Be An Asshole Questions, discussion and feedback are highly encouraged. In order to lubricate discussion and make the time go faster, we will be serving martinis. You're encouraged to contribute your favorite mixer, booze and swanky martini glasses. Thank you, Michael G Schwern PS I ask, as a courtesy, that if you plan to attend the tutorial at OSCON that you not consider this a freebie replacement and cancel your purchase. But if you are going to attend the OSCON tutorial you're welcome to attend the practice run as well. From david at kineticode.com Sat Jul 14 17:30:36 2007 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:30:36 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer" July 20th In-Reply-To: <469723E0.7060603@pobox.com> References: <469723E0.7060603@pobox.com> Message-ID: <9A26A66C-F9B7-4FF9-A3A3-918F9473A070@kineticode.com> On Jul 13, 2007, at 00:04, Michael G Schwern wrote: > * How Not To Be An Asshole Dude, I've so got this one covered already. ;-) Best, David From mikeraz at patch.com Sat Jul 14 17:51:47 2007 From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:51:47 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer" July 20th In-Reply-To: <9A26A66C-F9B7-4FF9-A3A3-918F9473A070@kineticode.com> References: <469723E0.7060603@pobox.com> <9A26A66C-F9B7-4FF9-A3A3-918F9473A070@kineticode.com> Message-ID: <20070715005146.GB25846@patch.com> David E. Wheeler wrote: > > * How Not To Be An Asshole > Dude, I've so got this one covered already. ;-) Isn't that for other people to assert? -- Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity http://www.patch.com/words/ The fortune cookie says: 99 blocks of crud on the disk, 99 blocks of crud! You patch a bug, and dump it again: 100 blocks of crud on the disk! 100 blocks of crud on the disk, 100 blocks of crud! You patch a bug, and dump it again: 101 blocks of crud on the disk! ... From gabrielle.roth at xo.com Mon Jul 16 09:43:33 2007 From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:43:33 -0600 Subject: [Pdx-pm] NCPAN - Not-so-Comprehensive Perl Archive [was RE: CPAN release] In-Reply-To: <469139B1.9090108@pobox.com> References: <20070706230349.GB17772@donaldrichardson.net><000e01c7c0d8$452092a0$0500a8c0@mlaptop> <469139B1.9090108@pobox.com> Message-ID: Michael G Schwern wrote: > Tags. The most dominant organizational tool on the web. Tags, like > democracy, are the worst form of organization except for all the other > alternatives. Let's add them to CPAN modules. Oooh, yes. I like this idea. gabrielle From raanders at acm.org Tue Jul 17 14:58:29 2007 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:58:29 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI/DBD::Pg SELECT ... FOR UPDATE Message-ID: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> The Cheetah book and searches using Google have not provided an answer. Well at least one that I understand or can use. The one decent reference is for DBIx::Class. I'm writing a script that will be run by a cron job. It queries a Pg table for records. The data from those records is used to query and, when ready, access specific data on a remote system (using LWP). If the data is "Ready" then do another query and get the meta data for it and then fetch the data back and process it one of several ways. The problem comes when the data is not "Ready", the meta data query fails, or some other situation comes into play and it takes longer than anticipated as in there are a a lot "Ready." I'd like this script to continue it's processing for however long but need to prevent the next cron call of the script from trying to process the same data. I could check if the script is running already but I've had less than stellar luck with doing it this way and ... there might be new records in the table to process. So finally to the question. How does/ or does DBI handle row level locks that Postgresql (and I think Oracle) provides. Do they apply to the database handle ($dbh)? So if, ### my $sth = $dbh->prepare(q{SELECT the, info FROM thetable WHERE the = 'R' FOR UPDATE }); my $uth = $dbh->prepare(q{UPDATE thetable SET the = ? WHERE info = ?}): $sth->execute(); while(( $the, $info ) = $sth->fetchrow_array ) { # lots of stuff to do if ( $test_results ) { $uth->execute( $the, $inf ); # Will this UPDATE work # while preventing the next run of the script from getting to the # currently selected data? } } And if not is it possible? How? Thanks, Rod -- From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com Tue Jul 17 15:48:54 2007 From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:48:54 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI/DBD::Pg SELECT ... FOR UPDATE In-Reply-To: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> References: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> Message-ID: <75BCB2AD-72C4-4C12-B761-A1EDAFC9E3D9@chrisking.com> On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > How does/ or does DBI handle row level locks that Postgresql (and I > think Oracle) provides. Do they apply to the database handle ($dbh)? > > So if, > > ### > my $sth = $dbh->prepare(q{SELECT the, info FROM thetable WHERE the > = 'R' > FOR UPDATE }); Not a perl solution -- but you could add a column or a table that tracks which rows that you are currently processing. Maybe I shouldn't admit this (don't hurt me, Randal!) - but I have a printing system for barcode printers that could get accessed by a variety of people at the same time. I change the status inside a transaction to reference the process ID (and the print logfiles have the PIDs in them). That way, when there's a failure, I can track link it to a specific file that was printed (all the files have the PID embedded in them). Also, if two jobs get called simultaneously, there's no double-printing. This type of thing gets you out of the business of policing your cron jobs. -selena From raanders at acm.org Tue Jul 17 16:03:55 2007 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:03:55 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI/DBD::Pg SELECT ... FOR UPDATE In-Reply-To: <75BCB2AD-72C4-4C12-B761-A1EDAFC9E3D9@chrisking.com> References: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> <75BCB2AD-72C4-4C12-B761-A1EDAFC9E3D9@chrisking.com> Message-ID: <469D4ADB.4000007@acm.org> Selena Deckelmann wrote: > On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > >> How does/ or does DBI handle row level locks that Postgresql (and I >> think Oracle) provides. Do they apply to the database handle ($dbh)? >> >> So if, >> >> ### >> my $sth = $dbh->prepare(q{SELECT the, info FROM thetable WHERE the = 'R' >> FOR UPDATE }); > > Not a perl solution -- but you could add a column or a table that tracks > which rows that you are currently processing. Thanks Selena. I (actually the team) had thought of that but it seemed so _not RDBMS_. :-) Also if the script/process fails for some reason I'm thinking that the DBI/DBD/database will handle it correctly. Incremental commits etc. I'll try one of the Pg lists and probably Chapter 12 of the Pg manual which discusses how FOR UPDATE(SHARE) and SELECT in general is handled. Rod -- > > Maybe I shouldn't admit this (don't hurt me, Randal!) - but I have a > printing system for barcode printers that could get accessed by a > variety of people at the same time. I change the status inside a > transaction to reference the process ID (and the print logfiles have the > PIDs in them). That way, when there's a failure, I can track link it to > a specific file that was printed (all the files have the PID embedded in > them). Also, if two jobs get called simultaneously, there's no > double-printing. > > This type of thing gets you out of the business of policing your cron jobs. > > -selena > > From akf at aracnet.com Tue Jul 17 16:09:20 2007 From: akf at aracnet.com (Amy K. Farrell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:09:20 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI/DBD::Pg SELECT ... FOR UPDATE In-Reply-To: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> References: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> Message-ID: <20070717230920.GA21720@aracnet.com> This is all from memory, and with Oracle besides, but I think you're on the right track with this snippet. You need to make sure you create your database handle with Autocommit => 0, and explicitly commit at the end of the transaction. Whether you need the explicit commit is something I'm particularly fuzzy on. That might be automatic when the connection is destroyed. - Amy On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 02:58:29PM -0700, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: [...] > How does/ or does DBI handle row level locks that Postgresql (and I > think Oracle) provides. Do they apply to the database handle ($dbh)? > > So if, > > ### > my $sth = $dbh->prepare(q{SELECT the, info FROM thetable WHERE the = 'R' > FOR UPDATE }); > > my $uth = $dbh->prepare(q{UPDATE thetable SET the = ? WHERE info = ?}): > > $sth->execute(); > > while(( $the, $info ) = $sth->fetchrow_array ) { > # lots of stuff to do > > if ( $test_results ) { > $uth->execute( $the, $inf ); > > # Will this UPDATE work > # while preventing the next run of the script from getting to the > # currently selected data? > > } > } > > And if not is it possible? How? > > > Thanks, > Rod > -- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list -- A.K. Farrell From raanders at acm.org Tue Jul 17 16:33:40 2007 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:33:40 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI/DBD::Pg SELECT ... FOR UPDATE In-Reply-To: <20070717230920.GA21720@aracnet.com> References: <469D3B85.3040205@acm.org> <20070717230920.GA21720@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <469D51D4.5070405@acm.org> Amy K. Farrell wrote: > This is all from memory, and with Oracle besides, but I think you're > on the right track with this snippet. You need to make sure you create > your database handle with Autocommit => 0, and explicitly commit at > the end of the transaction. Thanks for the insight Amy. I thought I was doing that but looking at the code I see I'm not. Can't remember why. Further reading of the Cheetah book kind of confuses the issue. Not sure if a UPDATE will be the same transaction as a SELECT FOR UPDATE if I use the same handle. Looks like test code time. Connect, open a handle, select for update, then try to select/update the data using pgAdmin3 or another script. > Whether you need the explicit commit is something I'm particularly > fuzzy on. That might be automatic when the connection is destroyed. Yes, and does a $dbh->commit() affect all the statements created from the handle? Oh well. like I said test code time! Again thanks, Rod -- > > > - Amy > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 02:58:29PM -0700, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > [...] > >> How does/ or does DBI handle row level locks that Postgresql (and I >> think Oracle) provides. Do they apply to the database handle ($dbh)? >> >> So if, >> >> ### >> my $sth = $dbh->prepare(q{SELECT the, info FROM thetable WHERE the = 'R' >> FOR UPDATE }); >> >> my $uth = $dbh->prepare(q{UPDATE thetable SET the = ? WHERE info = ?}): >> >> $sth->execute(); >> >> while(( $the, $info ) = $sth->fetchrow_array ) { >> # lots of stuff to do >> >> if ( $test_results ) { >> $uth->execute( $the, $inf ); >> >> # Will this UPDATE work >> # while preventing the next run of the script from getting to the >> # currently selected data? >> >> } >> } >> >> And if not is it possible? How? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Rod >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Pdx-pm-list mailing list >> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From chromatic at wgz.org Fri Jul 20 12:33:00 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Beautiful Code Panel at Powell's Tech Next Wednesday Message-ID: <200707201233.00466.chromatic@wgz.org> Even if you're not going to OSCON, you're all welcome to attend the Beautiful Code discussion panel next Wednesday night at Powell's Tech from 7:30 to 8:30 pm: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14746 Ward Cunningham will moderate the discussion. The panelists are Karl Fogel, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Simon Peyton-Jones, Andy Oram, and me. Feel free to pass this along to anyone else who might be interested. -- c From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 15:01:48 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:01:48 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? Message-ID: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Hi all, I would like to get Edgar some answers, but I'm terrible at judging age and have no clue about the CS programs at the local universities. Anybody have some info on that? If I had to guess, I would say nobody who attends the meetings is under 25. If I'm wrong and you've attended meetings, but want to maintain the allusion, e-mail me directly :-) Thanks, Eric ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? Date: Friday 20 July 2007 11:25 am From: "Edgar Bering" To: pm_groups at pm.org Dear PM leaders, At YAPC::NA I brought up the issue that the Perl community lacked members under 22 or so, and several reasons for this were discussed. I would like to get more information regarding the issue, so I have a few questions that I would like answered about every PM group: 1) At a typical meeting what percent of your members are under 25? 2) Are meetings typically held at open venues? (not bars or clubs that card) 3) Is there a college or university in your town? If yes I have extra questions ! 4) How far is the university from your meeting place ? 5) Does the university have a Computer Science program ? Thank you for the replying, once I have the data I'll report and try and find ways to recruit a new generation of Perl users. -- And if I go insane, please don't put your wires in my brain. And if I go insane, will you still let me join in the game? -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups ------------------------------------------------------- -- "If you dig it, it's yours." --An old village poet (via Al Pacino) --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 15:04:22 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:04:22 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? In-Reply-To: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <200707201504.22975.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Eric Wilhelm # on Friday 20 July 2007 03:01 pm: >to maintain the allusion Uh.. illusion. If anybody has been maintaining an allusion, I have obviously missed the reference ;-) --Eric -- Chicken farmer's observation: Clunk is the past tense of cluck. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From joshua at keroes.com Fri Jul 20 15:25:59 2007 From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? In-Reply-To: <200707201504.22975.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <200707201504.22975.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: guess we'll find out tonight how many <25 year olds we have :-D On 7/20/07, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Eric Wilhelm > # on Friday 20 July 2007 03:01 pm: > > >to maintain the allusion > > Uh.. illusion. If anybody has been maintaining an allusion, I have > obviously missed the reference ;-) > > --Eric > -- > Chicken farmer's observation: Clunk is the past tense of cluck. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Fri Jul 20 15:38:28 2007 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:38:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? In-Reply-To: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <20070720223828.GC26665@joshheumann.com> > Hi all, > > I would like to get Edgar some answers, but I'm terrible at judging age > and have no clue about the CS programs at the local universities. > Anybody have some info on that? I took over pdx.pm when I was 23, and I'm pretty sure I was the youngest or nearly the youngest the whole time I was running it. My information on pdx.pm runs about six months out of date at this time, though. If you guys have had an influx of toddlers, I'll stand corrected. As far as local universities, I know that PSU has a CS department, since recent speaker Rik Smoody was a professor there: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~riks/ I like the idea of recruting at universities, but I'm curious as to how many of the pdx.pm regulars went to school for computer science. I've noticed that some of the best and the brightest either got degrees in something completely different (oh, I don't know, like Linguistics) or didn't get a degree at all. Maybe this is a good topic for a new poll on the from page of pdx.pm.org? Josh http://joshheumann.com From schwern at pobox.com Fri Jul 20 17:45:24 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:45:24 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Reminder: Wet-run of "Simple Ways" tonight at 6 Message-ID: <46A15724.1090803@pobox.com> Just a reminder, practice run of my tutorial is tonight at 6 at Free Geek. Free Geek is currently a bit of a disaster since they're setting up for the Geek Fair. Just tell reception you're here for the tutorial and head back to the meeting room with all the comfy couches. What: "Simple Ways To Be A Better Programmer" practice run Where: Free Geek 1731 SE 10th Avenue http://freegeek.org When: Friday, July 20th 6pm - 10pm The official description of the tutorial is here: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/13216 In short, the tutorial is about all the things they don't teach you in computer science. Documentation, testing, refactoring, testing, task management... all taught in ways that are: * Easy to learn * Easy to do * Hard to get wrong * Able to be done by one person In addition I plan to cover "People", something programmers have a hard time with, with topics such as: * How To Learn * How Not To Be An Asshole Questions, discussion and feedback are highly encouraged. In order to lubricate discussion and make the time go faster, we will be serving martinis. You're encouraged to contribute your favorite mixer, booze and swanky martini glasses. From darthsmily at verizon.net Fri Jul 20 19:42:00 2007 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:42:00 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Where have all the young hackers gone? In-Reply-To: <20070720223828.GC26665@joshheumann.com> References: <200707201501.48792.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <20070720223828.GC26665@joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <46A17278.8090102@verizon.net> All the young hackers are too busy cutting their teeth hacking to hang out with all us old fogies and our dodgy meetings. Josh Heumann wrote: > > > >>Hi all, >> >>I would like to get Edgar some answers, but I'm terrible at judging age >>and have no clue about the CS programs at the local universities. >>Anybody have some info on that? >> >> > >I took over pdx.pm when I was 23, and I'm pretty sure I was the youngest >or nearly the youngest the whole time I was running it. My information >on pdx.pm runs about six months out of date at this time, though. If >you guys have had an influx of toddlers, I'll stand corrected. > >As far as local universities, I know that PSU has a CS department, since >recent speaker Rik Smoody was a professor there: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~riks/ > >I like the idea of recruting at universities, but I'm curious as to how >many of the pdx.pm regulars went to school for computer science. I've >noticed that some of the best and the brightest either got degrees in >something completely different (oh, I don't know, like Linguistics) or >didn't get a degree at all. > >Maybe this is a good topic for a new poll on the from page of pdx.pm.org? > >Josh >http://joshheumann.com >_______________________________________________ >Pdx-pm-list mailing list >Pdx-pm-list at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 02:48:33 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 02:48:33 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] recommended reading Message-ID: <200707210248.34193.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Perl at both ends! http://use.perl.org/~barbie/journal/33798 What does it mean to "know" Perl? http://use.perl.org/~autarch/journal/33209 --Eric -- perl -e 'srand; print join(" ",sort({rand() < 0.5} qw(sometimes it is important to be consistent)));' --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From ben.hengst at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 17:29:14 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:29:14 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> ok heres the issue. I have two modules, one that is a book info look up module(BookInfo), and one that is more of a basic model for a single book(SingleBook). SingleBook holds an instance of BookInfo so that it can make many of it's lookups (BookInfo->{bi}). All of the methods for BookInfo take an isbn as the param, SingleBook takes an isbn as a param for new, and holds it. The problem that I can't cleanly subclass BookInfo, because I already know my isbn, so I'm running in to is I keep haveing stubs that just pass thru to BookInfo in SingleBook. About 2/3's of SingleBook is basicly sub do_something { my ( $self ) = @_; return $self->{bi}->do_something($self->{isbn}); } It works, but it seems needlessly messy. What I would like to do is to have some way to specify that all calls made to SingleBook that dont exits should then get passed to BookInfo with the know isbn. I was thinking of doing something along these lines: if ($self->can($action) ) { return $self->$action; } elseif ($self->{bi}->can($action) { return $self->{bi}->$action($self->{isbn}); } else { die 'freakout... why are we here?'; } ... but I would have no idea where to plug this in to intercept every call to this object, unless I build a sub that EVERYTHING goes thru... but thats alot of code to change, and again seems like a very cludgy way to trap things. Any one have any other ideas? Am I on the right track? Completely missed the mark? -- benh~ From schwern at pobox.com Mon Jul 23 22:06:24 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:06:24 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A588D0.402@pobox.com> benh wrote: > It works, but it seems needlessly messy. What I would like to do is to > have some way to specify that all calls made to SingleBook that dont > exits should then get passed to BookInfo with the know isbn. > > I was thinking of doing something along these lines: > > if ($self->can($action) ) { > return $self->$action; > } elseif ($self->{bi}->can($action) { > return $self->{bi}->$action($self->{isbn}); > } else { > die 'freakout... why are we here?'; > } > > ... but I would have no idea where to plug this in to intercept every > call to this object, unless I build a sub that EVERYTHING goes thru... > but thats alot of code to change, and again seems like a very cludgy > way to trap things. > > Any one have any other ideas? Am I on the right track? Completely > missed the mark? AUTOLOAD() is the method which gets called if Perl can't find a method. Its called with the same arguments as a regular method. The original fully qualified method name called is in $AUTOLOAD. our $AUTOLOAD; sub AUTOLOAD { my $self = shift; my $class = ref $self || $self; my($method) = $AUTOLOAD =~ m/:([^:]+)$/; return if $method eq 'DESTROY'; if( $self->{bi}->can($method) ) { return $self->{bi}->$method($self->{isbn}, @_); } else { croak sprintf q[Can't locate object method "%s" via package "%s"], $method, ref $self; } } Since AUTOLOAD is overhead on each method call you can get tricksy. The first time a method is called AUTOLOAD makes one for it. Then each call after a real method is called. our $AUTOLOAD; sub AUTOLOAD { my $self = $_[0]; my $class = ref $self || $self; my($method) = $AUTOLOAD =~ m/:([^:]+)$/; return if $method eq 'DESTROY'; if( $self->{bi}->can($method) ) { my $code = sub { my $self = shift; $self->{bi}->$method($self->{isbn}, @_); }; *{$class .'::'. $method} = $code; goto $code; } else { croak sprintf q[Can't locate object method "%s" via package "%s"], $method, ref $self; } } To complete the illusion, override can() so it can answer correctly for the autoloaded methods which haven't been called yet. sub can { my($self, $method) = @_; return 1 if $self->can($method); return 1 if $self->{bi}->can($method); return 0; } From chromatic at wgz.org Mon Jul 23 22:20:25 2007 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:20:25 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <46A588D0.402@pobox.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <46A588D0.402@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200707232220.26090.chromatic@wgz.org> On Monday 23 July 2007 22:06:24 Michael G Schwern wrote: > To complete the illusion, override can() so it can answer correctly for the > autoloaded methods which haven't been called yet. > > sub can { > ????????my($self, $method) = @_; > > ????????return 1 if $self->can($method); > ????????return 1 if $self->{bi}->can($method); > > ????????return 0; > } Nit: can() returns a subroutine reference or undef, never a boolean. sub can { my ($self, $method) = @_; my $meth_ref = $self->can($method); return $meth_ref if $meth_ref; return $self->{bi}->can($method); } -- c From schwern at pobox.com Mon Jul 23 23:19:07 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:19:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <200707232220.26090.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <46A588D0.402@pobox.com> <200707232220.26090.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <46A599DB.3020806@pobox.com> chromatic wrote: > Nit: can() returns a subroutine reference or undef, never a boolean. D'oh! Got mixed up with isa(). From tex at off.org Mon Jul 23 23:29:50 2007 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:29:50 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 05:29:14PM -0700, benh wrote: > ok heres the issue. I have two modules, one that is a book info look > up module(BookInfo), and one that is more of a basic model for a > single book(SingleBook). SingleBook holds an instance of BookInfo so > that it can make many of it's lookups (BookInfo->{bi}). > All of the > methods for BookInfo take an isbn as the param, SingleBook takes an > isbn as a param for new, and holds it. > > The problem that I can't cleanly subclass BookInfo, because I already > know my isbn, so > I'm running in to is I keep haveing stubs that just pass thru to > BookInfo in SingleBook. About 2/3's of SingleBook is basicly > > sub do_something { > my ( $self ) = @_; > return $self->{bi}->do_something($self->{isbn}); > } > > It works, but it seems needlessly messy. What I would like to do is to > have some way to specify that all calls made to SingleBook that dont > exits should then get passed to BookInfo with the know isbn. > What sticks out to me is that this makes it sound like BookInfo should be initialized with an isbn. One way to accomplish this: Add set_isbn/get_isbn methods to BookInfo. It needs to be initialized before use and reset between methods which will use differing isbns. This is less clean but simple. You can actually leave existing API callers alone because you can do: package BookInfo; # $bi->method(); # or # $bi->method($isbn); sub method { my($self, $isbn) = @_; $isbn = $self->{isbn} unless defined($isbn); ... } I actually like the sub method { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method($self->{isbn}); } methodology you are using already. It's clear what you are doing and the code is easy to follow. The next person isn't likely to go 'wtf is going on here' when they are looking at your code like they will if they see something only implicitly defined by AUTOLOAD. Also in vi it only takes about 3 seconds per additional method to add in new methods after a few yypppps: sub method1 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method1($self->{isbn}); } sub method2 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method2($self->{isbn}); } sub method3 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method3($self->{isbn}); } sub method4 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method4($self->{isbn}); } *shrug*. Seems clean to me unless you have a bajillion methods. Ymmv. Austin From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 23:55:28 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707232355.28772.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from benh # on Monday 23 July 2007 05:29 pm: >sub do_something { >? ?my ( $self ) = @_; >? ?return $self->{bi}->do_something($self->{isbn}); >} > >It works, but it seems needlessly messy. What I would like to do is to >have some way to specify that all calls made to SingleBook that dont >exits should then get passed to BookInfo with the know isbn. You could do it with AUTOLOAD, but if you *can* declare the keys, that's probably better. That is, make a list and generate all of the methods at compile-time. You could even use Class::Accessor or Class::Accessor::Classy and just declare the getter. http://scratchcomputing.com/svn/Class-Accessor-Classy/trunk/t/05-set-get.t >I was thinking of doing something along these lines: > >if ($self->can($action) ) { >? ?return $self->$action; >} elseif ($self->{bi}->can($action) { >? ?return $self->{bi}->$action($self->{isbn}); >} else { >? ?die 'freakout... why are we here?'; >} Though you should consider giving $self->{isbn} to $self->{bi}, provided that can be done without staleness. Of course, I'm just itching to apply object-oriented functional programming to something, so why not curry it into some object methods? --Eric -- "...the bourgeoisie were hated from both ends: by the proles, because they had all the money, and by the intelligentsia, because of their tendency to spend it on lawn ornaments." --Neal Stephenson --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From schwern at pobox.com Mon Jul 23 23:58:58 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:58:58 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> Message-ID: <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> Austin Schutz wrote: > I actually like the > > sub method { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method($self->{isbn}); } > > methodology you are using already. It's clear what you are doing > and the code is easy to follow. The next person isn't likely to go > 'wtf is going on here' when they are looking at your code like they will if > they see something only implicitly defined by AUTOLOAD. Also in vi it only > takes about 3 seconds per additional method to add in new methods after a few > yypppps: > > sub method1 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method1($self->{isbn}); } > sub method2 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method2($self->{isbn}); } > sub method3 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method3($self->{isbn}); } > sub method4 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method4($self->{isbn}); } > > *shrug*. Seems clean to me unless you have a bajillion methods. Ymmv. The above code is a maint nightmare for all the reasons cut & code is a nightmare. If you want to change how it works across the board you need to edit it in every spot. The duplication means the individual methods will tend to drift apart and each get changed slightly differently and each get their own class of bugs. Also every time BookInfo adds a new method you have to add a new method, tightly binding the two classes together. The AUTOLOAD wtf is obviated with a simple comment: # delegate to $self->{bi}->$method($self->{isbn}, @args); Method generation is powerful and maintainable. Embrace it. From pagaltzis at gmx.de Wed Jul 25 07:37:37 2007 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (A. Pagaltzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:37:37 +0200 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070725143737.GQ21866@klangraum> * benh [2007-07-24 02:30]: > The problem that I can't cleanly subclass BookInfo, because I > already know my isbn, so I'm running in to is I keep haveing > stubs that just pass thru to BookInfo in SingleBook. About > 2/3's of SingleBook is basicly > > sub do_something { > my ( $self ) = @_; > return $self->{bi}->do_something($self->{isbn}); > } If you are passing the same parameter to all of the methods of an object, then that parameter should really be a field on that object. Or on some other object, depending on the requirements. If that doesn?t seem viable, that basically means your OO design is clumsy. You can work around this with things like AUTOLOAD et al, but I?d try to tackle it on a more fundamental level. If you explain more about your class hierarchy and why you chose things the way you did, someone might be able to propose a better layout. > It works, but it seems needlessly messy. Now that?s a classic if I ever heard one. :-) If you find yourself saying something this, you should immediately suspect an XY problem. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From ben.hengst at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 08:37:55 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:37:55 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <20070725143737.GQ21866@klangraum> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070725143737.GQ21866@klangraum> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707250837g32baae46i967e20084d06a5b0@mail.gmail.com> > If you are passing the same parameter to all of the methods of an > object, then that parameter should really be a field on that > object. Or on some other object, depending on the requirements. > If that doesn't seem viable, that basically means your OO design > is clumsy. > I'll aggree that theres lots of improvement on the conceptual level. Though to clarify the BookInfo module is designed to be more of a library of how to find the information... for example you could: foreach my $isbn (@$isbns) { $data->{$isnb}->{title} = $BookInfo->get_title($isbn); } So in an instance like this it would seem more like a hog to have to create a new instance of BookInfo just to pass an isbn to get the title... in instance where you need that thats where Single ISBN comes in. Sorry if I did not explain that very well. thanks everyone for all the responses. I have more then enough to poke at things with. From tex at off.org Wed Jul 25 21:45:56 2007 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:45:56 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20070726044556.GH27330@gblx.net> I've probably thought about this too much but... On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 11:58:58PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote: > > sub method1 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method1($self->{isbn}); } > > sub method2 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method2($self->{isbn}); } > > sub method3 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method3($self->{isbn}); } > > sub method4 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method4($self->{isbn}); } > > > > *shrug*. Seems clean to me unless you have a bajillion methods. Ymmv. > > The above code is a maint nightmare for all the reasons cut & code is a > nightmare. If you want to change how it works across the board you need to > edit it in every spot. The duplication means the individual methods will tend > to drift apart and each get changed slightly differently and each get their > own class of bugs. > > Also every time BookInfo adds a new method you have to add a new method, > tightly binding the two classes together. This is true if the API changes. But I like the explicitness of it only working with specific methods. I like my bonds tight. :-) Come to think of it you could have AUTOLOAD only work on specific methods too, I guess that amounts to about the same thing without the cut and paste effect. > > The AUTOLOAD wtf is obviated with a simple comment: > # delegate to $self->{bi}->$method($self->{isbn}, @args); > > Method generation is powerful and maintainable. Embrace it. > If you have a class which exists really as a subclass it sounds reasonable because having new methods pop in automatically is expected behavior. It's also useful for set/get subs. For aggregate objects like in this example it just seems unclean. In particular because things get weird when you have another class you want to do the same thing with- you can have name collisions and other bits of nastiness. One hybrid technique might be something like: BEGIN { $Autoloads = { 'method1' => 'Class1', 'method2' => 'Class1', 'method3' => 'Class2', ... }; } ..then have AUTOLOAD call the method for the correct class, barf otherwise. Austin From pagaltzis at gmx.de Wed Jul 25 23:15:32 2007 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (A. Pagaltzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:15:32 +0200 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [build in defaults to method calls from the outside] need some help thinking thru this one In-Reply-To: <20070726044556.GH27330@gblx.net> <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> References: <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> <20070726044556.GH27330@gblx.net> <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> <46A5A332.8070705@pobox.com> <85ddf48b0707231729l4ac775f1n9e7d70ab34ce18a7@mail.gmail.com> <20070724062950.GN20223@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20070726061532.GU21866@klangraum> * Austin Schutz [2007-07-24 08:40]: > Also in vi it only takes about 3 seconds per additional method > to add in new methods after a few yypppps: > > sub method1 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method1($self->{isbn}); } > sub method2 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method2($self->{isbn}); } > sub method3 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method3($self->{isbn}); } > sub method4 { my($self) = @_; $self->{bi}->method4($self->{isbn}); } > > *shrug*. Seems clean to me unless you have a bajillion methods. Ymmv. #11911 You wrote the same thing twice here. The cardinal rule of programming is that you never ever write the same thing twice. * Michael G Schwern [2007-07-24 09:00]: > Also every time BookInfo adds a new method you have to add a > new method, tightly binding the two classes together. That statement makes no sense. Of course they?re tightly bound; one is proxying calls to the other. You don?t want to just proxy any old that might be available on BookInfo; what if a method is added whose signature is different from the other methods? * Austin Schutz [2007-07-26 06:55]: > But I like the explicitness of it only working with specific > methods. I like my bonds tight. :-) use Sub::Installer qw( install_sub ); for my $subname ( qw( meth1 meth2 meth3 ) ) { install_sub { as => $subname, code => sub { $_[0]->{bi}->$subname( $_[0]->{isbn} ); }; } > Come to think of it you could have AUTOLOAD only work on > specific methods too, I guess that amounts to about the same > thing without the cut and paste effect. No need for AUTOLOAD. -- *AUTOLOAD=*_;sub _{s/(.*)::(.*)/print$2,(",$\/"," ")[defined wantarray]/e;$1} &Just->another->Perl->hack; #Aristotle From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Thu Jul 26 17:29:09 2007 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:29:09 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perlsurvey.org Message-ID: <20070727002909.GA20212@joshheumann.com> For those of you who haven't heard, the 2007 Perl Survey has gone live. Go take it! J Official info: Take part in the 2007 Perl Survey! The Perl Survey is an attempt to capture a picture of the Perl community in all its diversity. No matter what sort of Perl programmer you are, we'd love to hear from you. The survey can be found at: http://perlsurvey.org It only takes about 5 minutes to complete. The survey will be open until September 30th, 2007. After that, we'll be reporting on the results and making the data freely available. Please feel free to forward this email to anyone other Perl programmers you know. Thanks for your help! Yours, Kirrily "Skud" Robert The Perl Survey info at perlsurvey.org From schwern at pobox.com Sat Jul 28 13:32:07 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:32:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] The Perl Demographics Survey Message-ID: <46ABA7C7.30904@pobox.com> Skud has put together a short survey to find out the demographics of Perl programmers. Please have a look and fill it out no matter how much Perl you do. ----------------(From perlsurvey.org)-------------------- Take part in the 2007 Perl Survey! The Perl Survey is an attempt to capture a picture of the Perl community in all its diversity. No matter what sort of Perl programmer you are, we'd love to hear from you. The survey can be found at: http://perlsurvey.org It only takes about 5 minutes to complete. The survey will be open until September 30th, 2007. After that, we'll be reporting on the results and making the data freely available. Please feel free to forward this email to anyone other Perl programmers you know. Thanks for your help! Yours, Kirrily "Skud" Robert The Perl Survey info at perlsurvey.org From kevin at scaldeferri.com Mon Jul 30 16:25:10 2007 From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:25:10 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" Message-ID: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> So, I'm not really an HTML guy, but I find myself needing to produce a moderately fancy web UI for the project I'm working on. Basically, I have this server that aggregates a lot of information from various sites to display to the user. Unfortunately, a request can take 60 seconds or more to query all the data sources and get back the required information. The complaint from users is that they can't really tell that the server is actually doing anything when they just stare at a blank page "forever", and sometimes they just give up, convinced it is broken. (The page-loading spinner in the browser chrome is not considered sufficiently convincing.) So, at a minimum I want to display a message like "Working on your request " while we are gathering the data, then make that message disappear when the rest of the data comes in. Ideally, I'd provide a much more detailed, ongoing update of what the server is doing as it works on the request. I guess that means some sort of DHTML / AJAX thing, which is exactly the sort of thing I have 0 experience with. Do people have recommendations on where to go to learn how to produce effects like this? Of course, I'd like that perfect combination of practical and theoretical exposition which will provide excellent working examples of similar effects, plus enough understanding to modify them effectively. But, I'm willing to go to a couple different sources to piece it all together. Thanks, -kevin From schwern at pobox.com Mon Jul 30 16:39:07 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:39:07 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> Message-ID: <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> Yep, that's Ajax all right. Most Javascript frameworks handle this for you. I like Prototype myself as it small enough for me to wrap my brain around. http://www.prototypejs.org/learn/introduction-to-ajax Ajax is, essentially: 1) A bit of Javascript to get an HTML fragment from a URL 2) A bit of CGI to return that HTML fragment 3) A bit of Javascript to replace a hunk of the page (usually a
) with the new fragment. Prototype handles 1 and 3 for you. 2 you know how to do. From ben.hengst at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 16:41:02 2007 From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:41:02 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> Message-ID: <85ddf48b0707301641s71b6a38ah37439965be87a280@mail.gmail.com> I guess it really depends on the data your handing back to the user. If your building a page on there request there was some interesting discussions on the idea at oscon. If you can, the "best" way to hand back parts of the page so that it builds as the back end still loads things up as the page is built.. this gives the user the impression that something is being worked on and they have things to look at. Though this will not work if you just are passing in data to get an 'ok' msg. for that I would think that you could have a div that has a 'loading...' animation and a div thats empty but will hold your response. Fire off an ajax call back to the server to start the back end process so that you have a handle for the reply. This could then hide the loading div and poplate the other container div (or overwrite the loading div i guess, could be cleaner?) hope that helps. On 7/30/07, Kevin Scaldeferri wrote: > So, I'm not really an HTML guy, but I find myself needing to produce > a moderately fancy web UI for the project I'm working on. > > Basically, I have this server that aggregates a lot of information > from various sites to display to the user. Unfortunately, a request > can take 60 seconds or more to query all the data sources and get > back the required information. The complaint from users is that they > can't really tell that the server is actually doing anything when > they just stare at a blank page "forever", and sometimes they just > give up, convinced it is broken. (The page-loading spinner in the > browser chrome is not considered sufficiently convincing.) > > So, at a minimum I want to display a message like "Working on your > request " while we are gathering the data, then make that > message disappear when the rest of the data comes in. Ideally, I'd > provide a much more detailed, ongoing update of what the server is > doing as it works on the request. I guess that means some sort of > DHTML / AJAX thing, which is exactly the sort of thing I have 0 > experience with. > > Do people have recommendations on where to go to learn how to produce > effects like this? Of course, I'd like that perfect combination of > practical and theoretical exposition which will provide excellent > working examples of similar effects, plus enough understanding to > modify them effectively. But, I'm willing to go to a couple > different sources to piece it all together. > > > Thanks, > > -kevin > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- benh~ From pagaltzis at gmx.de Mon Jul 30 16:49:16 2007 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (A. Pagaltzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:49:16 +0200 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20070730234916.GV21866@klangraum> * Michael G Schwern [2007-07-31 01:40]: > I like Prototype myself as it small enough for me to wrap my > brain around. > http://www.prototypejs.org/learn/introduction-to-ajax Ugh. As Matt (ironically) puts it, Prototype is the Matt?s Script Archive of Javascript. It?s better now than it used to be, but then so is MySQL. For a *really* nice JS library, try jQuery: Docs and tutorial on the site; don?t miss the *excellent* reference at . See the `load` method for super extra ultra trivial Ajax work. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From marvin at rectangular.com Mon Jul 30 17:02:18 2007 From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:02:18 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <20070730234916.GV21866@klangraum> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> <20070730234916.GV21866@klangraum> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2007, at 4:49 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Ugh. As Matt (ironically) puts it, Prototype is the Matt?s Script > Archive of Javascript. It?s better now than it used to be, but > then so is MySQL. > > For a *really* nice JS library, try jQuery: > Docs and tutorial on the site; don?t miss the *excellent* > reference at . See the `load` method > for super extra ultra trivial Ajax work. After trying Prototype and YUI, I came to the conclusion that ultimately the JSAN folks had the right idea. () I just wish it had more good stuff on it. Your thoughts? Marvin Humphrey Rectangular Research http://www.rectangular.com/ From scratchcomputing at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 17:05:31 2007 From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:05:31 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200707301705.31839.ewilhelm@cpan.org> # from Michael G Schwern # on Monday 30 July 2007 04:39 pm: >Yep, that's Ajax all right. Or, you can just put a refresh in the header and have enough persistent info on the server to know when the page is ready. Return the 'refresh' page until you get the real one. No JS needed. If you know it will take 3 seconds, say "This will take about 3 seconds". If they get impatient and hit refresh, say "Your interwebs will be ready in 2.7 seconds, light only travels at 299,792,458 m/s." A little more state on the server (maybe), but a bookmark-able and proxy-cacheable url, and it works on your phone, etc. But maybe you really want javascript. >Most Javascript frameworks handle this > for you. I like Prototype myself as it small enough for me to wrap my > brain around. I think more than one person (or just one very loud bloke) at OSCON declared Prototype to be "the matt's script archive for javascript" and hailed Dojo for exercising release engineering, discipline, etc. I'm just the messenger, though I *did* look at the Prototype code once and it *did* hurt. --Eric -- We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals. --Quarry worker's creed --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jul 30 17:33:39 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:33:39 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> (Kevin Scaldeferri's message of "Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:25:10 -0700") References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> Message-ID: <86myxd76os.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Scaldeferri writes: Kevin> Do people have recommendations on where to go to learn how to produce Kevin> effects like this? Of course, I'd like that perfect combination of Kevin> practical and theoretical exposition which will provide excellent Kevin> working examples of similar effects, plus enough understanding to Kevin> modify them effectively. But, I'm willing to go to a couple Kevin> different sources to piece it all together. You can avoid all javascript entirely and go old-school: -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From schwern at pobox.com Mon Jul 30 21:32:18 2007 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:32:18 -0700 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Making web pages that display "working on your request" In-Reply-To: <200707301705.31839.ewilhelm@cpan.org> References: <91CDC702-3226-4DAF-B9BA-9A842996F498@scaldeferri.com> <46AE769B.7070106@pobox.com> <200707301705.31839.ewilhelm@cpan.org> Message-ID: <46AEBB52.4010609@pobox.com> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Or, you can just put a refresh in the header and have enough persistent > info on the server to know when the page is ready. Return the > 'refresh' page until you get the real one. No JS needed. If you know > it will take 3 seconds, say "This will take about 3 seconds". If they > get impatient and hit refresh, say "Your interwebs will be ready in 2.7 > seconds, light only travels at 299,792,458 m/s." A little more state > on the server (maybe), but a bookmark-able and proxy-cacheable url, and > it works on your phone, etc. Lordy do I hate interstitial pages, both writing them and using them. That is all. > But maybe you really want javascript. > >> Most Javascript frameworks handle this >> for you. I like Prototype myself as it small enough for me to wrap my >> brain around. > > I think more than one person (or just one very loud bloke) at OSCON > declared Prototype to be "the matt's script archive for javascript" and > hailed Dojo for exercising release engineering, discipline, etc. I thought Prototype had fixed the "for in" problem but I just tested it out and nope they haven't. :( For those who are wondering what all the hub-bub is about: http://blog.metawrap.com/blog/WhyIDontUseThePrototypejsJavaScriptLibrary.aspx