From a.r.ferreira at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 02:57:34 2007
From: a.r.ferreira at gmail.com (Adriano Ferreira)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:57:34 -0200
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Eliminating circular table relations.
In-Reply-To: <45C1088A.3040006@gmail.com>
References: <45C0E482.9020201@gmail.com>
	<73ddeb6c0701311055t218b143fh32097e44958d2456@mail.gmail.com>
	<45C1088A.3040006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73ddeb6c0702010257i3782f53bi3fe32c83d423f6@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adriano Ferreira wrote:
> >> While this ensures each sub-type row has an account row, it allows an
> >> account row to exist without a sub-type.  That's not allowed by the
> >> business rules.  Each account has one sub-type row and for each
> >> sub-type there is one account.
> >
> > That means one additional common attribute may be some kind of
> > account_type_id. This account_type_id in your case should live in a
> > discriminator table with two rows: one for meat accounts and another
> > for mushroom accounts. As this attribute will be required, there is no
> > way to create an account that is other than meat or mushroom (unless
> > you add a new type -- but you should know what you're doing in this
> > case).
>
> Could you write out that discriminator table long hand?  I'm a little hazy on how it would work and I'm having trouble finding examples.
>

CREATE TABLE account_type (
   account_type_id INTEGER PRIMARY KEY,
   account_type VARCHAR
);

INSERT INTO account_type
           (account_type_id, account_type)
VALUES ( 1, 'meat');

INSERT INTO account_type
           (account_type_id, account_type)
VALUES ( 2, 'mushroom');

CREATE TABLE account (
  id                  INTEGER     PRIMARY KEY,
  account_type_id INTEGER REFERENCES account_type(account_type_id),

  name                VARCHAR,
  address             VARCHAR,
  phone               VARCHAR
);

Every time you create an account, you must specify which account type
you want from those available in the table account_type. In this case,
these are two. The business logic would create a meat account with one
row in account and other in meat_account, or a mushroom account with
one row in account and other in mushroom_account to retain integrity.
If there is any error, rollback both rows so the model is not left
incomplete.

When you delete an account, you could choose a DELETE ON CASCADE or do
it by hand at your application code as well.

From schwern at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 06:29:55 2007
From: schwern at gmail.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:29:55 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Eliminating circular table relations.
In-Reply-To: <73ddeb6c0702010257i3782f53bi3fe32c83d423f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45C0E482.9020201@gmail.com>
	<73ddeb6c0701311055t218b143fh32097e44958d2456@mail.gmail.com>
	<45C1088A.3040006@gmail.com>
	<73ddeb6c0702010257i3782f53bi3fe32c83d423f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C1F963.7020106@gmail.com>

Adriano Ferreira wrote:
> On 1/31/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Could you write out that discriminator table long hand?  I'm a little hazy on how it would work and I'm having trouble finding examples.
>>
> 
> CREATE TABLE account_type (
>    account_type_id INTEGER PRIMARY KEY,
>    account_type VARCHAR
> );
> 
> INSERT INTO account_type
>            (account_type_id, account_type)
> VALUES ( 1, 'meat');
> 
> INSERT INTO account_type
>            (account_type_id, account_type)
> VALUES ( 2, 'mushroom');
> 
> CREATE TABLE account (
>   id                  INTEGER     PRIMARY KEY,
>   account_type_id INTEGER REFERENCES account_type(account_type_id),
> 
>   name                VARCHAR,
>   address             VARCHAR,
>   phone               VARCHAR
> );
> 
> Every time you create an account, you must specify which account type
> you want from those available in the table account_type. In this case,
> these are two. The business logic would create a meat account with one
> row in account and other in meat_account, or a mushroom account with
> one row in account and other in mushroom_account to retain integrity.
> If there is any error, rollback both rows so the model is not left
> incomplete.
> 
> When you delete an account, you could choose a DELETE ON CASCADE or do
> it by hand at your application code as well.

That seems like its pushing the data integrity up out of the database and into the application code. :(

From btp at cpan.org  Thu Feb  1 07:29:01 2007
From: btp at cpan.org (Ben Prew)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 07:29:01 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] DBI middle ground
In-Reply-To: <gr6tdlk4y.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
References: <52969.170.135.112.12.1170086637.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<gr6tdlk4y.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <24f4b2e80702010729i7bb6a6a5we5ce76028df41c02@mail.gmail.com>

I agree, it sounds like you are looking at each row, and you should
try and build one or two update statements that operate on the entire
set, instead of individual rows.

On 1/29/07, Tkil <tkil at scrye.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "MR" == Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com> writes:
>
> MR> I'm querying a large data set.  The current code works something like:
> MR>    while( @lease_information = $lease->fetchrow_array) {
> MR>          modification of data, plugging in defaults where currently null
> MR>          ensuring constraints are met
> MR>          # another_db_sth is an update command
> MR>          $another_db_sth->execute(@lease_information);
> MR>    }
>
> MR> I don't have control over the source database, so the changes need
> MR> to be made in my code.
>
> MR> This takes longer to execute than I'd like.  I can't just do a
> MR> fetchall or selectall because the dataset is larger than my
> MR> available memory.  Nor have I found a middle ground.
>
> MR> Is there one?  If so, that I may study up, what are references to
> MR> it?
>
> A few things to check:
>
> 1. Are you using autocommit?  That can be really painful in this
>    situation.  My usual technique is to turn off autocommit, then
>    explicitly commit() every so often (either by time, or by number of
>    DML statements, or by number of rows affected by those DML, it
>    varies.)
>
> 2. It'll almost always be faster to do this work in the DB, if you
>    can.  You should be able to use MySQL's IFNULL() or Oracle's NVL()
>    to fill in the blanks, and hopefully you can use standard WHERE
>    conditions to check constraints.  (Although the lack of proper
>    regex support in most DBs is painful.)
>
> 3. Profile your code locally, to see if it's CPU bound somehow.  As
>    others pointed out, binding values with "fetch" is advertised as
>    the fastest way to get data through the DBI; doing some local
>    profiling might point fingers.  (There's also the DBI trace
>    methods, which can use high-resolution timing (i think?) to give
>    you further insight.)
>
> 4. Talk to your DBA, if you have one.  It might be that your update
>    can be tuned, or it might be much faster to load up a temp table
>    and then do the update in one swell foop.
>
> Happy hacking,
> t.
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
--Ben

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 10:18:47 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:18:47 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Fwd: European Perl Hackathon
Message-ID: <200702011018.48096.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] Fwd: European Perl Hackathon
Date: Thursday 01 February 2007 07:48 am
From: Thomas Klausner <domm at cpan.org>
To: pm_groups at pm.org

Hi!

You might want to forward this to your local groups...

----- Forwarded message from Ann Barcomb <ann at domaintje.com> -----

From: Ann Barcomb <ann at domaintje.com>
Subject: [Hackathons] Announcement: European Perl Hackathon
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:22:13 +0100 (CET)
To: hackathons at pm.org

You are invited to attend the European Perl Hackathon in
Arnhem, the Netherlands, from 2 - 4 March, 2007.  Familiarity
with the featured projects is not required; you need only bring
a laptop and a willingness to join in.

Although there is no fee to attend the hackathon, you are required
to pay for your own accommodation and transportation.   However, it is
possible to book a room at the venue location when you register for
the hackathon, at the price of 74 Euros for two nights plus breakfast.

Space is limited to 30 participants, and registration is required.
Reservations for accommodations made through the hackathon must be made
 by 9 February; reservations for the event itself must be made no later
 than 22 February.

For more information about the event, please refer to
     http://conferences.yapceurope.org/hack2007nl

Feel free to circulate this notice.
_______________________________________________
Hackathons mailing list
Hackathons at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathons

----- End forwarded message -----

--
#!/usr/bin/perl                               http://domm.zsi.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
--
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 04:01:47 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:01:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Eliminating circular table relations.
In-Reply-To: <F83BF62C-DC86-4ACA-8A71-973A4F4D27B2@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <20070202120147.92915.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "David E. Wheeler" <david at kineticode.com> wrote:

> I went into some detail on this approach in presentations at the last  
> two OSCONs. I used it to model OO inheritance in the database  
> (meat_account inherits from account). You can get the slides here:
> 
>    http://conferences.oreillynet.com/presentations/os2006/ 
> wheeler_david.pdf
>    http://www.kineticode.com/docs/polymorphic_database_design.pdf
> 
> I also use it extensively in Object::Relation, my ORM module that I  
> expect to get back to hacking sooner or later.

I'd be happy to see more of that.  I think Object::Relation is a great
solution to ORM problems (though I admit I might be a bit biased since I've
hacked on it).  I think a 'HOWTO' tutorial might be a great start!

Cheers,
Ovid

--

Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From david at kineticode.com  Fri Feb  2 10:28:47 2007
From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:28:47 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Eliminating circular table relations.
In-Reply-To: <20070202120147.92915.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20070202120147.92915.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0AAC00CF-E7F4-465F-A209-D588C95FA394@kineticode.com>

On Feb 2, 2007, at 4:01 AM, Ovid wrote:

> I'd be happy to see more of that.  I think Object::Relation is a great
> solution to ORM problems (though I admit I might be a bit biased  
> since I've
> hacked on it).  I think a 'HOWTO' tutorial might be a great start!

Patches welcome. :-P

?D

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Fri Feb  2 22:31:14 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:31:14 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [OT] accountant recommendations
Message-ID: <6A796754-DBB0-4933-99A7-9C0E430C84A9@scaldeferri.com>

That time of year...

Who has recommendations for tax accountants?  Personally, I'm looking  
for someone well versed with options and ESPPs, as well as doing  
partial-year OR and CA returns.   Close SE preferred.


Thanks,

-kevin

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 09:56:16 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:56:16 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON proposal deadline is Monday
Message-ID: <200702030956.16944.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

Just a reminder that there's about to be a wooshing sound.

  http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2007/

--Eric
-- 
You can't whack a chisel without a big wooden mallet.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 19:19:01 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:19:01 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Feb 6th pre-pre-meeting meeting with Richard Dice
Message-ID: <200702031919.02115.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Mongers of Perl and Portland,

Richard Dice (of Toronto perl mongers, yapc::na 2005 chair, and TPF 
fame) will be in town on Tuesday and would like to meet up with some 
local mongers for a dinner and drinks night.

He'll be staying in the inner northeast (15th, around Lloyd center.)  
I'm guessing the most convenient would be something downtown, or near 
the max line on the east side.  Suggestions?

--Eric
-- 
The first rule about Debian is you don't talk about Debian
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From selena at chrisking.com  Mon Feb  5 08:38:12 2007
From: selena at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:38:12 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Feb 6th pre-pre-meeting meeting with Richard Dice
In-Reply-To: <200702031919.02115.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200702031919.02115.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <83CA210B-6CFA-46B5-B3E1-AE4CEF0AB77A@chrisking.com>


On Feb 3, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> Richard Dice (of Toronto perl mongers, yapc::na 2005 chair, and TPF
> fame) will be in town on Tuesday and would like to meet up with some
> local mongers for a dinner and drinks night.
>
> He'll be staying in the inner northeast (15th, around Lloyd center.)
> I'm guessing the most convenient would be something downtown, or near
> the max line on the east side.  Suggestions?

Paddy's is right on the Max downtown and has excellent bar food and a  
fantastic collection of scotch.  They have nice big booths, so I find  
that it's a great place to go and talk.

If Richard is looking for good food, I'd recommend Bernies on  
Alberta, or Farm on E Burnside. You can reach either quickly by bus.

-selena



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 13:54:35 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:54:35 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Feb 6th social at Paddy's with Richard Dice
In-Reply-To: <83CA210B-6CFA-46B5-B3E1-AE4CEF0AB77A@chrisking.com>
References: <200702031919.02115.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<83CA210B-6CFA-46B5-B3E1-AE4CEF0AB77A@chrisking.com>
Message-ID: <200702051354.35603.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Selena Deckelmann
# on Monday 05 February 2007 08:38 am:

>Paddy's is right on the Max downtown and has excellent bar food and a
> ? fantastic collection of scotch. ?They have nice big booths, so I
> find that it's a great place to go and talk.

Yes, the "wall of booze" is definitely a plus.

Let's say "Paddy's at 7pm on Tuesday" (tomorrow.)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Paddy%27s+Portland+OR&ie=UTF8&z=15&ll=45.523608,-122.674499&spn=0.020025,0.027809&om=1&iwloc=A

IIRC, it's two blocks East and one block South of the first Max stop 
after it turns west toward Pioneer Square.

See you there!

--Eric
-- 
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it."
--Donald Knuth
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Feb  5 18:34:39 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:34:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
Message-ID: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>


<http://merlyn.vox.com/library/post/theres-nothing-to-see-here.html>

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From chromatic at wgz.org  Mon Feb  5 18:37:49 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:37:49 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Monday 05 February 2007 18:34, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> <http://merlyn.vox.com/library/post/theres-nothing-to-see-here.html>

It really legally didn't happen anymore?  Congratulations!

-- c

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Feb  5 18:38:44 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:38:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org> (chromatic@wgz.org's
	message of "Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:37:49 -0800")
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "chromatic" == chromatic  <chromatic at wgz.org> writes:

chromatic> On Monday 05 February 2007 18:34, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> <http://merlyn.vox.com/library/post/theres-nothing-to-see-here.html>

chromatic> It really legally didn't happen anymore?  Congratulations!

yes.  I can answer "no" to "have you ever been convicted of a crime?".

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From mikeraz at patch.com  Mon Feb  5 18:40:45 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:40:45 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> chromatic> It really legally didn't happen anymore?  Congratulations!
> 
> yes.  I can answer "no" to "have you ever been convicted of a crime?".

So what are the celebratory plans?  A trip to Canada? Voting?  Firearm
purchase?

-- 
      Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
          http://www.patch.com/words/ 
  The fortune cookie says:
If the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence
would not be false.


From joshua at keroes.com  Mon Feb  5 18:41:19 2007
From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:41:19 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <c67b68200702051841y37412ce4k8ed12ee10100b3e8@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations on um nothing ever happening to you!

Does that mean you can vote now? And travel out of the country?

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Feb  5 18:43:29 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:43:29 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <c67b68200702051841y37412ce4k8ed12ee10100b3e8@mail.gmail.com>
	(Joshua Keroes's message of "Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:41:19 -0800")
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<c67b68200702051841y37412ce4k8ed12ee10100b3e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86d54oypim.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Keroes <joshua at keroes.com> writes:

Joshua> Congratulations on um nothing ever happening to you!

Joshua> Does that mean you can vote now?

Since I don't live in Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, or Virgina
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement), that was never the
issue.

Joshua>  And travel out of the country?

I've been doing that all along.  But now I'll be able to legally travel
to Canada, the only country in the whole world that seemed to care.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Feb  5 18:44:22 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:44:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com> (Michael Rasmussen's message
	of "Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:40:45 -0800")
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702051837.49300.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com>
Message-ID: <868xfcyph5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com> writes:

Michael> Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
chromatic> It really legally didn't happen anymore?  Congratulations!
>> 
>> yes.  I can answer "no" to "have you ever been convicted of a crime?".

Michael> So what are the celebratory plans?  A trip to Canada? Voting?  Firearm
Michael> purchase?

Canada - most definitely
voting - never a problem (see other message)
firearms - I still ahve to apply to the BATF to get that back (which I will)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 18:51:04 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:51:04 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com>
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com>
Message-ID: <200702051851.04426.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael Rasmussen
# on Monday 05 February 2007 06:40 pm:

>So what are the celebratory plans? ?A trip to Canada? Voting? ?Firearm
>purchase?

I know:  dinner and drinks with a Canadian!

--Eric
-- 
But as soon as you hear the Doppler shift dropping in pitch, you know
that they're probably going to miss your house, because if they were on
a collision course with your house, the pitch would stay the same until
impact. As I said, that's one's subtle.
--Larry Wall
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From david at kineticode.com  Mon Feb  5 19:24:17 2007
From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:24:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] I normally wouldn't do this but...
In-Reply-To: <200702051851.04426.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <86wt2wypxc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<86odo8ypqj.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20070206024045.GB20940@patch.com>
	<200702051851.04426.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <AD7A3F0E-6DCD-4C2A-A2BD-85D16CF7D162@kineticode.com>

On Feb 5, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> I know:  dinner and drinks with a Canadian!

And a hunting trip. With guns!

?D

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 17:30:31 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:30:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Paddy's tonight at 7pm
Message-ID: <200702061730.32533.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Is anybody coming tonight besides me?

Oh well... more drinks for me then. 

--Eric
-- 
perl -e 'srand; print join(" ",sort({rand() < 0.5}
  qw(sometimes it is important to be consistent)));'
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Feb  6 17:35:18 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:35:18 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Paddy's tonight at 7pm
In-Reply-To: <200702061730.32533.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200702061730.32533.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200702061735.18505.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Tuesday 06 February 2007 17:30, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> Is anybody coming tonight besides me?

Me.

-- c

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 13:52:16 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:52:16 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: UG News--February is Web Design and Development Month
	at O'Reilly
Message-ID: <200702071352.16855.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: UG News--February is Web Design and Development Month at 
O'Reilly
Date: Wednesday 07 February 2007 11:56 am
From: "Marsee Henon" <marsee at oreilly.com>
To: ewilhelm at cpan.org

Hi,

Can you share the following with your members if you think they
might be interested?

It's Web Design and Development Month here at O'Reilly and we just put
together a special resource page dedicated to web development
 essentials including books, PDF Short Cuts, articles, and author
 events:
http://www.oreilly.com/go/webdev


Don't forget your members can receive 35% off any of these titles when
they use discount code DSUG on our site. There's also free ground
shipping in the US on orders over $29.95.

Happy FebWeb,

Marsee

================================================================
O'Reilly
1005 Gravenstein Highway North
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://ug.oreilly.com/creativemedia/
================================================================

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 16:47:46 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:47:46 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Meeting tonight -- 6:53 pm
Message-ID: <200702071647.47388.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Location:  Free Geek (I think[*])
Topic:  writing tests for Module::ScanDeps

  http://svn.openfoundry.org/par/Module-ScanDeps/trunk

It wouldn't hurt to have a checkout ready to go, though there will be 
time to get setup during the movie.

There's nearly zero coverage at the moment, so this is more of a 
clean-slate project than the last test-hacking session.

Some issues particular to testing this module:

  o even core-module dependencies change between versions
  o bundled samples would work in some cases (but what about .so's?)
  o existing behavior is not always correct
  o results are somewhat sensitive to windows weirdnesses

I don't expect us to get a huge number of tests written, but there 
should be some lively discussion.

[*]  I completely spaced-out on checking the room availability and there 
is something scheduled in the meeting room.  If all goes well, we'll 
get the classroom, if not, I guess we'll convene outside and try to 
take over the side-room at the lab.

--Eric
-- 
So malloc calls a timeout and starts rummaging around the free chain,
sorting things out, and merging adjacent small free blocks into larger
blocks. This takes 3 1/2 days.
--Joel Spolsky
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------


From john at digitalmx.com  Fri Feb  9 20:19:15 2007
From: john at digitalmx.com (John Springer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:19:15 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] help with archivemail (python) ??
Message-ID: <D8B3E4E1-9D3F-48BF-8AA7-B3799D3869E6@digitalmx.com>

I'm trying to use a python program called archivemail to manage
a bunch of user mailboxes.  Sorry for the foreign language
request but I'm calling it from a perl script so i should
get partial credit.


I don't know squat about python.
The program is putting stuff in the wrong temp directory
and I can't figure out how to fix it.

It's using /tmp and it needs to be /usr/tmp on my system because]
/tmp is a small partition.  It's crashing with out-of-space on
	self.mbox_file.write(body)

I can't for the life of me follow where the temp path is coming from.
Can anyone give me some guidance?

Here's some key statements i think:

	import tempfile  (seems to be a python module.. i'm suspicious this  
is where /tmp is coming from.)
and
	class StaleFiles:
  	   """Class to keep track of files to be deleted on abnormal exit"""
	    archive            = None  # tempfile for messages to be archived
	    procmail_lock      = None  # original_mailbox.lock
  	   retain             = None  # tempfile for messages to be retained
  	   temp_dir           = None  # our tempfile directory container

and
	  class RetainMbox(Mbox):
     """Class for holding messages that will be retained from the  
original
     mailbox (ie. the messages are not considered 'old'). Extends the  
'Mbox'
     class. This 'mbox' file starts off as a temporary file but will  
eventually
     overwrite the original mailbox if everything is OK.

     """
     __final_name = None

     def __init__(self, final_name):
         """Constructor - create a temporary file for the mailbox.

         Arguments:
         final_name -- the name of the original mailbox that this  
mailbox
                       will replace when we call finalise()

         """
         assert(final_name)
         temp_name = tempfile.mktemp("retain")
         self.mbox_file = open(temp_name, "w")
         self.mbox_file_name = temp_name
         _stale.retain = temp_name
         vprint("opened temporary retain file '%s'" %  
self.mbox_file_name)
         self.__final_name = final_name



--
   John Springer
   Somewhere in Portland
   Where it's probably raining.



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From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 00:56:39 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:56:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] help with archivemail (python) ??
In-Reply-To: <D8B3E4E1-9D3F-48BF-8AA7-B3799D3869E6@digitalmx.com>
References: <D8B3E4E1-9D3F-48BF-8AA7-B3799D3869E6@digitalmx.com>
Message-ID: <200702100056.40414.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from John Springer
# on Friday 09 February 2007 08:19 pm:

> Sorry for the foreign language
>request but I'm calling it from a perl script so i should
>get partial credit.

Only if you're giving a talk on Inline::Python in the next 4 months.  If 
you're calling it from a system call, you better use a list context and 
check the return value or else you have to buy the beer :-D

>It's using /tmp and it needs to be /usr/tmp on my system because]
>/tmp is a small partition.  It's crashing with out-of-space on
>	self.mbox_file.write(body)
...
>	import tempfile
...
>         temp_name = tempfile.mktemp("retain")

The neat thing about open-source, and particularly interpreted languages 
(no matter how lame) is that you can go find the code and see what it 
does.  Maybe it uses an environment variable.

  perl -e 'print join(", ", @INC), "\n"'

becomes:

  python -c 'import sys; print sys.path'

.pm becomes .py, $ENV becomes env() or something.

If you get lost, try `python --help`, then get mad at how blindingly 
stupid that error message is while you follow its instructions (but 
maintain your sense of humor and take a moment to laugh at the irony of 
how it refuses to take its own (singular and unambiguous) advice on 
your behalf.)

--Eric
-- 
"If you only know how to use a hammer, every problem begins to look like
a nail."
--Richard B. Johnson
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 12:00:34 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:00:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Nordic Perl Workshop 2007
Message-ID: <200702101200.34853.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] Nordic Perl Workshop 2007
Date: Saturday 10 February 2007 08:17 am
From: Claes Jakobsson <claes at surfar.nu>
To: pm_groups at pm.org

Hi,

please send the invitation below to your local group if you think
they might be interested.

Thanks
Claes Jakobsson, Stockholm Perl Mongers

---------

The Copenhagen Perl Mongers will host the Fifth Nordic Perl Workshop
on April 28-29, 2007. Submit proposals for papers, offer sponsorship,
or volunteer to help.

The price for two days of the workshop with lunch included is 500 DKK
(about $US90). Presentations are held mostly in english. And, as
usual, the workshop fee is waived for speakers, so submit a talk!

Hope to see you in Copenhagen!

http://www.perlworkshop.dk/2007/
http://www.perlworkshop.dk/2007/cfp.html
http://www.perlworkshop.dk/2007/sponsors.html

--
-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From john at digitalmx.com  Sat Feb 10 14:26:41 2007
From: john at digitalmx.com (John Springer)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:26:41 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] help with archivemail (python) ??
In-Reply-To: <200702100056.40414.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <D8B3E4E1-9D3F-48BF-8AA7-B3799D3869E6@digitalmx.com>
	<200702100056.40414.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <EBFBE8C6-FB27-4D36-91FF-F734C9EB8C37@digitalmx.com>


On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

>
> Only if you're giving a talk on Inline::Python in the next 4  
> months.  If
> you're calling it from a system call, you better use a list context  
> and
> check the return value or else you have to buy the beer :-D

It's @result=system($command); #whew!  escaped that one.

>
> "If you only know how to use a hammer, every problem begins to look  
> like
> a nail."
> --Richard B. Johnson
That would be me.  But it beats only having a pencil.  or a python.

On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:17 AM, Amy Farrell wrote:
> I've been working with python somewhat the last few months. I guess  
> you could say I know squat now, but it's still mostly Google for  
> me. To wit:
>
>> import tempfile  (seems to be a python module.. i'm suspicious  
>> this is where /tmp is coming from.)
> Yep. Read this (skim down to where it defines "tempdir" and you'll  
> see your solution:

your squat is way better than my squat.  thank you!  i wasn't smart  
enough to find that.



--
   John Springer
   Somewhere in Portland
   Where it's probably raining.



From chromatic at wgz.org  Sun Feb 11 17:47:05 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:47:05 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: PerlMongers Calendar
Message-ID: <200702111747.05359.chromatic@wgz.org>

Good question!

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

TPR maintains a calendar feed...  Shouldn't pdx-pm be on there too?


http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ngctmrd1cac35061mrjt3hpgng at group.cal
endar.google.com

Perl community events across the world, maintained by The Perl Review:
http://www.theperlreview.com. Write to brian d foy (brian d foy) to become
an editor of the calendar.

-------------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 18:09:39 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:09:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: PerlMongers Calendar
In-Reply-To: <200702111747.05359.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <200702111747.05359.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <200702111809.39509.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from chromatic
# on Sunday 11 February 2007 05:47 pm:

>Good question!
>>TPR maintains a calendar feed...  Shouldn't pdx-pm be on there too?
>http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ngctmrd1cac35061mrjt3hpgng at group.calendar.google.com

Yes, an excellent question.  Unfortunately, my boycott of Web2.0 (well, 
general lack of time and particular short temper for web apps) makes it 
difficult to even keep the kwiki updated.

I hereby open the floor to nominations for a Secretary of Extra Affairs.

--Eric
-- 
"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana."
--Groucho Marx
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 02:47:25 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:47:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] Nordic Perl Workshop 2007
In-Reply-To: <200702101200.34853.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <272030.86320.qm@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Dread Parrot <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Copenhagen Perl Mongers will host the Fifth Nordic Perl Workshop
> on April 28-29, 2007. Submit proposals for papers, offer sponsorship,
> or volunteer to help.
> 
> The price for two days of the workshop with lunch included is 500 DKK
> (about $US90). Presentations are held mostly in english. And, as
> usual, the workshop fee is waived for speakers, so submit a talk!
> 
> Hope to see you in Copenhagen!

I realize of most of you folks making it hear will be vanishingly small, but
if you do, I'll be there and will be looking forward to meeting some of you
again!

Cheers,
Ovid

--

Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 21:07:34 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:07:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: PerlMongers Calendar
In-Reply-To: <200702111747.05359.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <200702111747.05359.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702142107w5eba9137lcd91336612654969@mail.gmail.com>

were on the list.

On 2/11/07, chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
> Good question!
>
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>
> TPR maintains a calendar feed...  Shouldn't pdx-pm be on there too?
>
>
> http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ngctmrd1cac35061mrjt3hpgng at group.cal
> endar.google.com
>
> Perl community events across the world, maintained by The Perl Review:
> http://www.theperlreview.com. Write to brian d foy (brian d foy) to become
> an editor of the calendar.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 16:23:55 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:23:55 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] s/hack/slack/
Message-ID: <200702151623.56014.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

I know I mentioned a hack night last week, but I don't have it in me 
today.  I, of course, cannot impede the will of the ambitious, but alas 
I will not be among you.  If hacking occurs, please inform us as to the 
progress.

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Feb 15 16:34:53 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:34:53 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] s/hack/slack/
In-Reply-To: <200702151623.56014.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200702151623.56014.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200702151634.53565.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 15 February 2007 16:23, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> I know I mentioned a hack night last week, but I don't have it in me
> today.  I, of course, cannot impede the will of the ambitious, but alas
> I will not be among you.  If hacking occurs, please inform us as to the
> progress.

It's still at your house though, right?

-- c

From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Feb 15 16:37:47 2007
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:37:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] s/hack/slack/
In-Reply-To: <200702151634.53565.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <200702151623.56014.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702151634.53565.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702151636440.5971@blackbox.fnordora.org>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, chromatic wrote:

> On Thursday 15 February 2007 16:23, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>
>> I know I mentioned a hack night last week, but I don't have it in me
>> today.  I, of course, cannot impede the will of the ambitious, but alas
>> I will not be among you.  If hacking occurs, please inform us as to the
>> progress.
>
> It's still at your house though, right?

Eric's house at 2am.  Bring lots of friends.

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
                   - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 18:29:48 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:29:48 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] s/hack/slack/
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702151636440.5971@blackbox.fnordora.org>
References: <200702151623.56014.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702151634.53565.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0702151636440.5971@blackbox.fnordora.org>
Message-ID: <200702151829.48990.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from alan
# on Thursday 15 February 2007 04:37 pm:

>On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, chromatic wrote:
>> On Thursday 15 February 2007 16:23, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>>> I know I mentioned a hack night last week, but I don't have it in
>>> me today.  I, of course, cannot impede the will of the ambitious,
>>> but alas I will not be among you.  If hacking occurs, please inform
>>> us as to the progress.
>>
>> It's still at your house though, right?
>
>Eric's house at 2am.  Bring lots of friends.

Right.  I'll be up, but maybe you should hit my cell before you come 
over.

Actually, I had mentioned doing a meetup at Jax or thereabouts (though I 
keep forgetting that Thurs. is jazz^Wnoise night there.)

I haven't gotten the boxen setup for it yet, but when I do, I'll also 
try to stock up on tables and booze so it all goes better.

I think we could still do with a detached plan/hack session to get some 
of the tools and utilities straight.  The lucky lab was a bit difficult 
for the last one.  I think Paddy's would work fine, or maybe Urban 
Grind (though a single screaming child in a concrete box can easily 
exceed my noise-while-programming threshold.)

--Eric
-- 
"...our schools have been scientifically designed to
prevent overeducation from happening."
--William Troy Harris
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From mikeraz at patch.com  Fri Feb 16 08:33:01 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:33:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd:  Divine Language Judgment
Message-ID: <57165.170.135.112.12.1171643581.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Thanks to Paul Heinlein for sending this my way.

Before you click through all I can say is "take that language bigots."

-------------------------------- Original Message --------------------------------

Finally, a divine revelation in the language wars:

   http://xkcd.com/c224.html


-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 21:31:30 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:31:30 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
Message-ID: <200702182131.30947.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

You know, when someone says "I need a volunteer", and you're standing 
next to your buddy, you just know they would do a great job but they 
need a little encouragement -- you give him/her a shove and they have 
to step out of line to keep from falling over on their face.

So, yeah.  We need speakers.  Bring your boss to perl mongers month?

--Eric
-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 23:01:55 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:01:55 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <200702182131.30947.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200702182131.30947.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702182301s1a7c0282j2610dc4aef2fc9c3@mail.gmail.com>

well it's not really a single speaker type of thing but I could
suggest some things, though there mostly issues like... how do I
convince co-workers to start writing tests?

On 2/18/07, Seven till Seven <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> You know, when someone says "I need a volunteer", and you're standing
> next to your buddy, you just know they would do a great job but they
> need a little encouragement -- you give him/her a shove and they have
> to step out of line to keep from falling over on their face.
>
> So, yeah.  We need speakers.  Bring your boss to perl mongers month?
>
> --Eric
> --
>
>         http://pdx.pm.org
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From heidi at animae.org  Mon Feb 19 19:27:29 2007
From: heidi at animae.org (heidi)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:27:29 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT: pdx visit
Message-ID: <3994494E-E421-4F04-958D-784F55308B42@animae.org>

hey perl people,

my bf and i are visiting portland this thurs-sun. we have it in our  
heads that it might be a good idea to immigrate to your fine city.  
any suggestions about things we should check out? i'm aware of  
freegeek. other galleries/museums/places oriented to technology?  
places where the cool web 2.0 kids hang out?

to make this perl related, i am a perl (and other things) programmer.  
bf is an architect, of the non-software variety.

thanks for your pointers,
sorry for the offtopic,

heidi

From joshua at keroes.com  Mon Feb 19 19:48:59 2007
From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:48:59 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT: pdx visit
In-Reply-To: <c67b68200702191948n2abbd25cg69df49285e8181a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3994494E-E421-4F04-958D-784F55308B42@animae.org>
	<c67b68200702191948n2abbd25cg69df49285e8181a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c67b68200702191948g3a4a05bfkf9e2f88b0ca2d6f3@mail.gmail.com>

I whipped this up a few months ago for other folks. I suspect you may
find it useful, too:

http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/8271

In addition to that, I recommend you pick up Chuck Palahniuk's book,
"Heroes and Refugees: a Walk in Portland". It's an off-kilter tour
guide of sorts.

-J

On 2/19/07, heidi <heidi at animae.org> wrote:
> hey perl people,
>
> my bf and i are visiting portland this thurs-sun. we have it in our
> heads that it might be a good idea to immigrate to your fine city.
> any suggestions about things we should check out? i'm aware of
> freegeek. other galleries/museums/places oriented to technology?
> places where the cool web 2.0 kids hang out?
>
> to make this perl related, i am a perl (and other things) programmer.
> bf is an architect, of the non-software variety.
>
> thanks for your pointers,
> sorry for the offtopic,
>
> heidi
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Feb 20 02:36:20 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:36:20 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
Message-ID: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='benh' when='Sun, Feb 18, 2007 at 11:01:55PM -0800'>
> well it's not really a single speaker type of thing but I could
> suggest some things, though there mostly issues like... how do I
> convince co-workers to start writing tests?

If they're insterested, you can give a little talk at work.

If they're not interested or convinced, just start quietly writing tests
for your own stuff.  When your tests start catching otherwise
uncatchable bugs, you can say, "Hey, I caught this bug before it went
into production.  And it was alllll thanks to testing!"

While we're talking about testing, what's the general feeling on testing
protected and private methods?

J

PS.  Greetings from down under!  It was 38C all weekend!
PPS. Apologies to benh, who got this a brazillian times.  The heat must
be going to my head.

From raanders at acm.org  Tue Feb 20 05:23:28 2007
From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:23:28 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Win32::TieRegistry oddity
Message-ID: <45DAF650.3090504@acm.org>

I've run into what appears to be a new problem.  Suddenly scripts that 
have been working for 2-3 years on two different systems are having 
problems with Win32::TieRegistry->SubKeyNames.

While running the script through the debugger I found I could

	x $TieRegistry->SubKeyNames

just before the script call and get the error but when I next step the 
script the real call would work.

Not sure how long this has been going on.  The other system that runs 
this script appears to be working fine though when I ran the script 
through the debugger it failed the same.

I tried wrapping a worthless call in an eval block but not sure if a 
later problem I discovered when I ran the script to the end is masking 
the success of the eval block trick.
    So until I can sort this other issue out and get back to the 
Win32::TieRegistry stuff I was hoping someone on the list might have 
some suggestions on how to get past the failing SubKeyNames call.

TIA,
Rod
-- 

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Tue Feb 20 08:52:59 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:52:59 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT: pdx visit
In-Reply-To: <3994494E-E421-4F04-958D-784F55308B42@animae.org>
References: <3994494E-E421-4F04-958D-784F55308B42@animae.org>
Message-ID: <D2F57AE6-0BDD-443B-ABAE-F427BEEB3CFE@scaldeferri.com>


On Feb 19, 2007, at 7:27 PM, heidi wrote:

> my bf and i are visiting portland this thurs-sun. we have it in our
> heads that it might be a good idea to immigrate to your fine city.
> any suggestions about things we should check out? i'm aware of
> freegeek. other galleries/museums/places oriented to technology?

OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, http://www.omsi.org) is  
the obvious answer.  It's primarily oriented towards kids, but  
there's neat exhibits for adults as well.


-kevin

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 08:57:11 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:57:11 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702200857r20699ecpc0fb996c8ff81c1c@mail.gmail.com>

horray! glad to see that you made it to your new home safe and sound.
no worries about getting extra email.

as for my take on testing protected and private methods... well theres
the knee jerk reaction that everything should be tested, but if it's
protected then not only have to test that, yes, it works and fails the
way that I expected, but also that it's protected the way that I
expected. Though apart from that I don't see a reason ~not~ to test
something.



On 2/20/07, Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> <quote who='benh' when='Sun, Feb 18, 2007 at 11:01:55PM -0800'>
> > well it's not really a single speaker type of thing but I could
> > suggest some things, though there mostly issues like... how do I
> > convince co-workers to start writing tests?
>
> If they're insterested, you can give a little talk at work.
>
> If they're not interested or convinced, just start quietly writing tests
> for your own stuff.  When your tests start catching otherwise
> uncatchable bugs, you can say, "Hey, I caught this bug before it went
> into production.  And it was alllll thanks to testing!"
>
> While we're talking about testing, what's the general feeling on testing
> protected and private methods?
>
> J
>
> PS.  Greetings from down under!  It was 38C all weekend!
> PPS. Apologies to benh, who got this a brazillian times.  The heat must
> be going to my head.
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Tue Feb 20 08:59:57 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:59:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <E0C741AC-4106-4CA3-A8F3-98EF6B3B1863@scaldeferri.com>


On Feb 20, 2007, at 2:36 AM, Josh Heumann wrote:

>
>
> While we're talking about testing, what's the general feeling on  
> testing
> protected and private methods?
>

If you really have private methods; and if you can provably cover all  
code paths with tests of the public API, then I would say you are  
okay to only do that.  If you can't cover everything using just calls  
to the public API, then your choices are to a) add tests to the  
private methods, or b) remove the logically unreachable code.

Protected methods can be called by your subclasses, so you should  
test them directly.

If, like most perl code, you don't really have private methods, you  
have to test everything, because someone, someday is going to use it.


Speaking of coverage... it seemed like a few people at the last  
meeting were unfamiliar with using Devel::Cover together with unit  
tests.  If there's interest, I could probably put together a talk  
about it.  (But not for March.)


-kevin

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 10:52:10 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:52:10 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <200702201052.10746.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Josh Heumann
# on Tuesday 20 February 2007 02:36 am:

>If they're not interested or convinced, just start quietly writing
> tests for your own stuff. ?When your tests start catching otherwise
> uncatchable bugs, you can say, "Hey, I caught this bug before it went
> into production. ?And it was alllll thanks to testing!"

If you're under a lot of time pressure, you might be told that you 
shouldn't be stopping to write tests.  In this case, making them part 
of your development should help.  If you use the test as the 
prototype/demo, you'll usually get done faster than if you went through 
the frontend of a large system while debugging (e.g. manually messing 
with the database or hitting refresh in the browser/gui.)  This assumes 
that you can get your fixtures built without a big delay, so usually 
you need to start small -- testing things that don't require a lot of 
environment setup.

The fact that the test then stays around to self-check the functionality 
becomes a freebie.

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 01:13:09 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:13:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <200702201052.10746.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you're under a lot of time pressure, you might be told that you 
> shouldn't be stopping to write tests.  In this case, making them part

> of your development should help.

When I first learned testing, I made the mistake of including the time
for that as a separate line item on an estimate I turned in.  My boss
scratched it off.  Ever since then, I folded "time for testing" into
any estimate I turned in.

After a while, you realize that writing the code and writing the tests
are really the same thing so trying to even consider them as *not* part
of development is a mistake.

Cheers,
Ovid

--

Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 08:17:15 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:17:15 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com>

Ovid wrote:
> --- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> If you're under a lot of time pressure, you might be told that you 
>> shouldn't be stopping to write tests.  In this case, making them part
> 
>> of your development should help.
> 
> When I first learned testing, I made the mistake of including the time
> for that as a separate line item on an estimate I turned in.  My boss
> scratched it off.  Ever since then, I folded "time for testing" into
> any estimate I turned in.

The argument I like to use is that "non-productive" items like "commenting" or "indenting" or "version control" are not separate line items either.  Why should testing be?

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 09:10:35 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:10:35 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Glassbox testing (was Re:  The art of volunteering)
In-Reply-To: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <45DC7D0B.8030609@pobox.com>

Josh Heumann wrote:
> While we're talking about testing, what's the general feeling on testing
> protected and private methods?

I wrote a whole thing about the advantages and traps of glassbox testing then realized it was pretty handy to have around.  So rather than post it here I put it on the perl-qa Wiki.
http://perl-qa.yi.org/index.php/Glassbox_Testing

I encourage you to edit it into a real article.

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Feb 21 10:11:22 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:11:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200702211011.22481.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 08:17, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> The argument I like to use is that "non-productive" items like "commenting"
> or "indenting" or "version control" are not separate line items either.
> ?Why should testing be?

Because why would you write code that doesn't work?  That's just silly.  Don't 
you know what it needs to do?  What's all this "I'm done... I just need to 
clean it up a little and test it" stuff?  Either you're done or you're not.

Programmers tend to do a lousy job of actually communicating what it takes to 
finish a feature.  I wonder if we suffer from that when non-programmers 
disbelieve us.

-- c

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Wed Feb 21 10:37:09 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:37:09 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <D7C01A3B-1E41-44D3-B121-EB77CEA1281E@scaldeferri.com>


On Feb 21, 2007, at 8:17 AM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Ovid wrote:
>> --- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you're under a lot of time pressure, you might be told that you
>>> shouldn't be stopping to write tests.  In this case, making them  
>>> part
>>
>>> of your development should help.
>>
>> When I first learned testing, I made the mistake of including the  
>> time
>> for that as a separate line item on an estimate I turned in.  My boss
>> scratched it off.  Ever since then, I folded "time for testing" into
>> any estimate I turned in.
>
> The argument I like to use is that "non-productive" items like  
> "commenting" or "indenting" or "version control" are not separate  
> line items either.  Why should testing be?
>

Our team considers it part of the code review process.  Before a  
review can even start, the author must provide a packet with the  
code, the tests, coverage report for the tests, and (for C code)  
valgrind output from the tests.  Lack of test coverage and memory  
leaks are grounds for preemptively failing the review.

(The fact that these policies have applied since the first line of  
code was written does make it a lot easier to be this draconian.)


-kevin

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 10:52:15 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:52:15 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <200702211011.22481.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com> <200702211011.22481.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <45DC94DF.4080103@pobox.com>

chromatic wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 08:17, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>> The argument I like to use is that "non-productive" items like "commenting"
>> or "indenting" or "version control" are not separate line items either.
>>  Why should testing be?
> 
> Because why would you write code that doesn't work?  That's just silly.  Don't 
> you know what it needs to do?  What's all this "I'm done... I just need to 
> clean it up a little and test it" stuff?  Either you're done or you're not.
> 
> Programmers tend to do a lousy job of actually communicating what it takes to 
> finish a feature.  I wonder if we suffer from that when non-programmers 
> disbelieve us.

Then you just don't mention it. :)  Its a technical detail they don't need to know.  Same as you don't mention that you're going to spend time commenting, indenting or using version control.

If you really to need to argue the point, one way is to look at how many tasks are re-opened because it was "done" but later a bug was found and the task reopened.  It could reopen at any moment.  This sort of thing makes time estimates impossible, you never really know when its done.  You can also point out that the time you spend fixing bugs (especially if you can find repeat bugs) would more than make up for the time spent writing tests.

Another is to appeal to your users.  How many tasks are bug fixes as opposed to new features?  How many of those bugs were found by users?  How often a is task is "90% done, I just need to do some testing" and how long does it remain in that state?  This sort of stuff drives users bananas.  Where I'm consulting they have employees who play the part of "on-site customer" so they have enough exposure to the dev process to have their voices be heard.  If you sit down with a user and say "ok, what do you want your thing to do?" and write a test out of what they want they'll often be very impressed that a programmer is being attentive about a user's wants.

Finally, there's often the hairball of code nobody wants to touch.  Often its in the absolutely most critical part of the system.  Payment processing is a common one.  If it has no tests you have no assurance that your change didn't break things.  Nobody wants to touch it because nobody wants to break it and take down the whole business.  Nobody wants to clean it up because nobody wants to touch it.  So it remains a hairball with its messiness spilling out into everything it touches (lava flow anti-pattern).  Any requests for change to that part of the system are met with pushback from the programmers who don't want to touch it.


From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 11:41:03 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:41:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <45DC94DF.4080103@pobox.com>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com> <200702211011.22481.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<45DC94DF.4080103@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702211141i1b8bab7vcb66ab4e214f6f@mail.gmail.com>

Kevin, that sounds wonderful... proper code reviews, what a dream
world you work in... sure to turn this ship around to something even
remotely looking like that here would be... well... many moons would
have to pass. Though I guess every little bit that I can do to help
will in fact help... so thats good.

And, wow, Schwern I think that you just described my current working
environment with that whole hairball thing...

I guess the plan is to figure out whats going to work out best for me,
and then do my own thing and then slowly try and get everyone else to
adopt some variation on the practice... slow and steady.... sloooww
and steady.


On 2/21/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> chromatic wrote:
> > On Wednesday 21 February 2007 08:17, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> >
> >> The argument I like to use is that "non-productive" items like "commenting"
> >> or "indenting" or "version control" are not separate line items either.
> >>  Why should testing be?
> >
> > Because why would you write code that doesn't work?  That's just silly.  Don't
> > you know what it needs to do?  What's all this "I'm done... I just need to
> > clean it up a little and test it" stuff?  Either you're done or you're not.
> >
> > Programmers tend to do a lousy job of actually communicating what it takes to
> > finish a feature.  I wonder if we suffer from that when non-programmers
> > disbelieve us.
>
> Then you just don't mention it. :)  Its a technical detail they don't need to know.  Same as you don't mention that you're going to spend time commenting, indenting or using version control.
>
> If you really to need to argue the point, one way is to look at how many tasks are re-opened because it was "done" but later a bug was found and the task reopened.  It could reopen at any moment.  This sort of thing makes time estimates impossible, you never really know when its done.  You can also point out that the time you spend fixing bugs (especially if you can find repeat bugs) would more than make up for the time spent writing tests.
>
> Another is to appeal to your users.  How many tasks are bug fixes as opposed to new features?  How many of those bugs were found by users?  How often a is task is "90% done, I just need to do some testing" and how long does it remain in that state?  This sort of stuff drives users bananas.  Where I'm consulting they have employees who play the part of "on-site customer" so they have enough exposure to the dev process to have their voices be heard.  If you sit down with a user and say "ok, what do you want your thing to do?" and write a test out of what they want they'll often be very impressed that a programmer is being attentive about a user's wants.
>
> Finally, there's often the hairball of code nobody wants to touch.  Often its in the absolutely most critical part of the system.  Payment processing is a common one.  If it has no tests you have no assurance that your change didn't break things.  Nobody wants to touch it because nobody wants to break it and take down the whole business.  Nobody wants to clean it up because nobody wants to touch it.  So it remains a hairball with its messiness spilling out into everything it touches (lava flow anti-pattern).  Any requests for change to that part of the system are met with pushback from the programmers who don't want to touch it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From andy at petdance.com  Wed Feb 21 11:51:37 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:51:37 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] sneaking tests into work
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0702211141i1b8bab7vcb66ab4e214f6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95029.3051.qm@web60822.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45DC708B.7070409@pobox.com> <200702211011.22481.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<45DC94DF.4080103@pobox.com>
	<85ddf48b0702211141i1b8bab7vcb66ab4e214f6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <091DB2BC-6057-4531-ABB7-3F29EC242F73@petdance.com>


On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:41 PM, benh wrote:

> Kevin, that sounds wonderful... proper code reviews, what a dream
> world you work in...

You can have that dream world, too!  You just make it happen.

Nobody says code reviews have to be sanctioned by the boss.  Nobody  
says they have to be Officially Organized.  You get together with one  
other programmer, say, Bob, and you two swap code.  You two have your  
own two-man programming process.  You do things the right way because  
that's how you work.

Then, people will notice.  People will notice how quickly you're  
getting code done.  You'll have minimal bugs.  You'll be able to  
refactor with impunity.  And all without official blessing from The  
Boss.

Eventually the Boss will notice and start wanting to take ideas from  
you.  "Oh, yeah, we do code review, it works well for us.  We could  
implement that department-wide.  We'd be glad to help."

Nothing succeeds like success, and sometimes you have to JFDI.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 18:23:17 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:23:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: UG News--RailsConf 2007 Update
Message-ID: <200702211823.18294.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Act now before rails sells out!  ("Dude, you used to be so hardcore... 
what happened man?")

----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: UG News--RailsConf 2007 Update
Date: Wednesday 21 February 2007 05:56 pm
From: Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com>
To: ewilhelm at cpan.org

Hi

Just wanted to pass along the following news to share with your
members in case they might be interested.

RailsConf 2007 is Almost Sold Out!

In the first few hours after registration for RailsConf 2007 opened, we
signed up more then 500 people. If you haven't already registered, make
sure you get your spot before it sells out. There are only a few seats
left and some tutorials have already reached capacity.

Use code "rc07usrg" when you register and receive 15% off
the early registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/51/register.html>

RailsConf 2007
May 17-20, 2007
Oregon Convention Center
Portland, Oregon
http://conferences.oreilly.com/rails


Thanks!


Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly
1005 Gravenstein Highway North
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://ug.oreilly.com/creativemedia/
================================================================

-------------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 09:38:04 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:38:04 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] YAPC::Europe 2007 - Call for Participation
Message-ID: <200702220938.04882.ewilhelm@cpan.org>


http://vienna.yapceurope.org/ye2007/
29th to 31st August 2007

----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] YAPC::Europe 2007 - Call for Participation
Date: Thursday 22 February 2007 03:16 am
From: Thomas Klausner <domm at cpan.org>
To: pm_groups at pm.org

(please forward to your local groups and all other potentially
interested people...)


Call for Participation - YAPC::Europe 2007 in Vienna
====================================================

Vienna.pm is officially announcing the call for participation for Yet
Another Perl Conference Europe 2007. This years conference theme is
"Social Perl".


Location
--------

The conference will be held in Vienna, Austria, from 29th to 31st
 August 2007 at the Vienna University of Economics and Business
 Administration.


Star guests
-----------

We found sponsors to invite some famous international Perl hackers.

Thanks to nfotex for inviting Larry (and Gloria) Wall, to Anonymous
Donor for getting Damian Conway from Australia to Austria (it's quite
expensive to get the 'al' out of Australia...) and to geizhals.at for
inviting Audrey Tang and Mark Jason Dominus.


Schedule
--------

The final schedule will be announced on 22nd of July 2007.

Would-be speakers please see the Call for Papers available on the
conference website for more information on key dates and talks.


Costs
-----

* Regular attendance:        100 EUR
* Students and Early Birds:   80 EUR
* Business/Sponsor Tariff:   200 EUR


Regular attendance costs 100 Euro, and 80 Euros for students. Early
birds only pay 80 Euros (if paid until 31st March 2007). There is also
 a voluntary business/sponsor tariff at 200 Euros, which is an easy way
 to sponsor YAPC::Europe 2007 and Perl in general.

You will not only get three days packed with interesting talks and
people, but also a goodie bag, a conference t-shirt, an invitation to
the attendees dinner and the unique opportunity to see renowned members
of the Perl community with orange mohawks.

As YAPC::Europe is a community-driven conference, we're not in it for
the profit. But should we make one, all money will be used for funding
further Perl 5|6 development, future YAPC::Europe conferences and for
advancing Perl usage / the Perl community in Austria.


How to register
---------------

To register for YAPC::Europe 2007 go to our website:
   http://vienna.yapceurope.org

Click on the 'New user'-Link in the navbar and fill out the subsequent
form.


Accomodation & Getting to Vienna
--------------------------------

Please note that you should *definitly* book your hotel room as soon as
possible. While you will be able to get a room later, the hotels near
the venue will fill up. So to prevent long trips through the city or
paying more than you want to, book your hotel room!.

You can find more information on accomodation in Vienna, and how to get
to Vienna by plain, train, car etc at the conference website.


Contact
-------

For more information please see the YAPC Europe 2007 website:
   http://vienna.yapceurope.org


If you have any questions, do not hesitate to send an email to
   vienna2007 at yapceurope.org

The organisers will get back to you as soon as possible.


Thomas Klausner,
on behalfe of Vienna.pm

From ianburrell at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:10:12 2007
From: ianburrell at gmail.com (Ian Burrell)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:10:12 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Loading modules from Storable
Message-ID: <d91f09cd0702221510p67fe34b0g12b66befcfb12711@mail.gmail.com>

At work, we are storing objects with the Storable and then restoring
them in separate processes.  The objects can be of arbitrary classes
and include objects of classes that aren't loaded statically.  How do
we load the modules to make the objects work?

There doesn't seem to be a way to get the list of loaded classes from
Storable. Right now, we are using Class::Autouse superload which adds
an UNIVERSAL::AUTOLOAD method to load all classes on load.  Ideally,
we could have something that would work with Storable hooks by
dynamically loading the modules before looking for the hooks.

 - Ian

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 15:22:03 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:22:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
Message-ID: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>

Selena and Gabrielle bribed me with cookies to do a little Perl Testing Clinic tonight.  I only got back into town this week and have a bunch of work to do so I didn't want it to turn into a big thing I'd have to prepare for.
That said, I'm opening it up to whomever would like to come on such short notice because it would seem a waste. [1]

The format is just to come with your testing situations which are giving you trouble and we'll see about working things out.  You should already have basic knowledge of testing, at least what's covered in Test::Tutorial, and already started to do it on your own.  Or just come to listen in.

If you do plan on coming it would be helpful to post up what you intend to ask so I have at least a little time to mull it over.

This is what Selena and Gabrielle wrote for an outline of what they'd like to know:


MOTIVATING QUESTIONS
=====================
How do I know when I should write a test?
What tests should I have?
What perl modules help me?

Testing VS Error Checking
    - what is the difference?  When is something error checking, when should it be part of a "test suite"?
    - when do we write the test?  (before writing our functions?)
    - but we already wrote the functions, so sorry, how do we go back and write the tests?
    - inside a test, an error happens:  where it goes, how to capture it, and what to do with it

And now, for what I like to call the DEAR SCHWERN portion of the clinic:

SITUATIONS
==========
I have several small applications that gather data from various sources
into a flat file & update/add that information to a database daily.
Issues that I'd like to test for:

* Environment/Configuration testing
Examples:
    - Path to a file: a) file not there, b) permissions wrong, c) file empty, d) file has weird crap in it etc. , e) path does not exist, f) file date too old
    - passwords, keys: changed
    - input data validation - do i have all the files i need, are they in the right places, are they configured correctly

* Data export may contain bogus data (but it is mostly ok)
    - gracefully handling insert failures on rows
    - for different types of errors, have a set of different actions available

* Data export may contain valid data, but is mostly bogus
    - Example: other departments are supplying excel files, and they are creating them by hand, so a careful checking procedure is required before trying to use the files.  We do not want to wait until we're inserting rows before croaking.

* Referential Integrity in DB
    - the table I'm updating references another table; do I need to insert a new record in that other table to maintain relational integrity? 



[1]  Its really that I'm afraid to be alone in a room with icky girls!!!

From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com  Thu Feb 22 15:28:58 2007
From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:28:58 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3C0AD0DE-C450-4F67-9BD1-0AD7F0F7B508@chrisking.com>


On Feb 22, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> [1]  Its really that I'm afraid to be alone in a room with icky  
> girls!!!

As you should be!

Seriously, I don't want anyone else to come because it might reduce  
the number of cookies that I get to eat.

From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Thu Feb 22 15:37:41 2007
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:37:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A032BCA99@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>

> [1]  Its really that I'm afraid to be alone in a room with 
> icky girls!!!

ICKY!?!?!  No Hippie Snickerdoodles* (tm) for you!

gabrielle

*whole-wheat, organic butter, turbinado sugar, fair-trade cinnamon,
blahblahblah.  A Portland classic.

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Thu Feb 22 15:56:20 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:56:20 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Michael G Schwern' when='Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 03:22:03PM -0800'>
> Selena and Gabrielle bribed me with cookies to do a little Perl
> Testing Clinic tonight.

Will there be a podcast for those of us who are interested, and yet
can't afford the $1500 to get there in time?

J

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:11:17 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:11:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
	<20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <200702221611.18188.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Josh Heumann
# on Thursday 22 February 2007 03:56 pm:

>Will there be a podcast for those of us who are interested, and yet
>can't afford the $1500 to get there in time?

For you, we'll only charge $375 for the podcast.

--Eric
-- 
To a database person, every nail looks like a thumb.
--Jamie Zawinski
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 16:26:31 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:26:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
	<20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <45DE34B7.1040804@pobox.com>

Josh Heumann wrote:
> <quote who='Michael G Schwern' when='Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 03:22:03PM -0800'>
>> Selena and Gabrielle bribed me with cookies to do a little Perl
>> Testing Clinic tonight.
> 
> Will there be a podcast for those of us who are interested, and yet
> can't afford the $1500 to get there in time?

If you can figure out how to do video conferencing with Skype, let me know and I'll do that.

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Feb 22 16:36:22 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:36:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> (Michael G. Schwern's message of
	"Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:22:03 -0800")
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> writes:

Michael> Selena and Gabrielle bribed me with cookies to do a little Perl
Michael> Testing Clinic tonight.

/me looks at calendar

This is a completely unannounced date, no?  And even at the last minute?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Feb 22 16:49:34 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:49:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 22 February 2007 16:36, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> This is a completely unannounced date, no?  And even at the last minute?

Let me introduce you to Perl.  Also, Schwern.

-- c

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Feb 22 16:51:26 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:51:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org> (chromatic@wgz.org's
	message of "Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:49:34 -0800")
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "chromatic" == chromatic  <chromatic at wgz.org> writes:

chromatic> Let me introduce you to Perl.  Also, Schwern.

Just wanted to make sure this wasn't reserved for the last month, and only
just now being announced.

Somehow, it's more sane if it really is the last minute. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 17:08:28 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:08:28 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "chromatic" == chromatic  <chromatic at wgz.org> writes:
> 
> chromatic> Let me introduce you to Perl.  Also, Schwern.
> 
> Just wanted to make sure this wasn't reserved for the last month, and only
> just now being announced.
> 
> Somehow, it's more sane if it really is the last minute. :)

It really, really is the last minute.


From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:32:33 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:32:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702221732r67de28e2uc30ad3f92b3921fe@mail.gmail.com>

its more fun this way.

On 2/22/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>>> "chromatic" == chromatic  <chromatic at wgz.org> writes:
> >
> > chromatic> Let me introduce you to Perl.  Also, Schwern.
> >
> > Just wanted to make sure this wasn't reserved for the last month, and only
> > just now being announced.
> >
> > Somehow, it's more sane if it really is the last minute. :)
>
> It really, really is the last minute.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From rootbeer at redcat.com  Thu Feb 22 17:37:31 2007
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:37:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <31086b240702221737m561e27eegc3da9c24156b4ffb@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/22/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:

> It really, really is the last minute.

If we wanted to do this again, at some minute scheduled whole days in
advance, can we afford enough cookies?

--Tom Phoenix

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 17:47:47 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:47:47 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <31086b240702221737m561e27eegc3da9c24156b4ffb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
	<31086b240702221737m561e27eegc3da9c24156b4ffb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DE47C3.9000801@pobox.com>

Tom Phoenix wrote:
> On 2/22/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
>> It really, really is the last minute.
> 
> If we wanted to do this again, at some minute scheduled whole days in
> advance, can we afford enough cookies?

Yes, I wouldn't mind that at all.  I just don't feel up to a big production right now.

From ianburrell at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:55:08 2007
From: ianburrell at gmail.com (Ian Burrell)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:55:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Loading modules from Storable
In-Reply-To: <d91f09cd0702221510p67fe34b0g12b66befcfb12711@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d91f09cd0702221510p67fe34b0g12b66befcfb12711@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d91f09cd0702221755m7aadd0e2m4cfb6b5ff3d9ecb6@mail.gmail.com>

I found the solution.  It is to use a less ancient version of Storable
(and Perl).  Storable 1.0.5 added the feature of dynamically loading
classes for blessed objects.  We are using Storable 1.0.4.

 - Ian

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 22:14:31 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:14:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <45DE47C3.9000801@pobox.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com> <86fy8x90c9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<200702221649.34671.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<86bqjl8zn5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <45DE3E8C.4000708@pobox.com>
	<31086b240702221737m561e27eegc3da9c24156b4ffb@mail.gmail.com>
	<45DE47C3.9000801@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702222214n7dc062dan4aea8046171aa550@mail.gmail.com>

Heres my notes from this evenings talk. I really should spend some
time to expand this and put it up on the wiki... but till then:
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From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 11:59:17 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:59:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <200702221611.18188.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
	<20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
	<200702221611.18188.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200702231159.17409.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Eric Wilhelm
# on Thursday 22 February 2007 04:11 pm:

># from Josh Heumann
>
># on Thursday 22 February 2007 03:56 pm:
>>Will there be a podcast for those of us who are interested, and yet
>>can't afford the $1500 to get there in time?
>
>For you, we'll only charge $375 for the podcast.

Okay, so I lied.  It's free.  Thanks again to Chris for the bandwidth.

  http://pdxpm.podasp.com/archive.html

--Eric
-- 
perl -e 'srand; print join(" ",sort({rand() < 0.5}
  qw(sometimes it is important to be consistent)));'
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Fri Feb 23 16:33:03 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:33:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <200702231159.17409.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
	<20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
	<200702221611.18188.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702231159.17409.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20070224003303.GA3880@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='benh' when='Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 10:14:31PM -0800'>
> Heres my notes from this evenings talk. I really should spend some
> time to expand this and put it up on the wiki... but till then:

<quote who='Eric Wilhelm' when='Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:59:17AM -0800'>
> Okay, so I lied.  It's free.  Thanks again to Chris for the bandwidth.

Perfect!  Thanks to both of you.  Of course, this is all really
pointless without cookies of my own...

J

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Sat Feb 24 10:44:26 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:44:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] offtopic - party for "nothing" on March 17 at my place
Message-ID: <86tzxb2y5x.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>


Figuring the overlap between "my local friends" and "this list" is about
80%, I thought I'd pass along the announcement for my "Nothing to see here"
party... see <http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddc2kdgd_0g57ns2>.

Sorry for the interruption.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 14:09:52 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:09:52 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing Clinic, 6:30 tonight @ Free Geek
In-Reply-To: <20070224003303.GA3880@joshheumann.com>
References: <45DE259B.7000907@pobox.com>
	<20070222235620.GB15989@joshheumann.com>
	<200702221611.18188.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702231159.17409.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<20070224003303.GA3880@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <45E0B7B0.80203@pobox.com>

Josh Heumann wrote:
> Perfect!  Thanks to both of you.  Of course, this is all really
> pointless without cookies of my own...

What are you talking about?!?!  You have easy access to Tim-Tams!!!

From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 24 16:27:25 2007
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:27:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
Message-ID: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'll be running a Perl quiz night at my local Perl mongers group
and am looking for questions.

I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
For example:

The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:

 a) Larry
 b) Leonardo
 c) Lawrence
 d) Louis

The trouble is I don't know what it stands for.

Some other famous middle names I thought of are:

 Michael G Schwern
 brian d foy

Any others? Does Larry have a middle name?

Anyway, if you know any of these middle names or can suggest some nice
ideas for Perl quiz questions, please let me know.

Thanks,
/-\ (hoping noone from Sydney.pm is lurking on this list or
     finds the archives ;-)


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 17:01:30 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:01:30 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45E0DFEA.80801@pobox.com>

Andrew Savige wrote:
> I'll be running a Perl quiz night at my local Perl mongers group
> and am looking for questions.
> 
> I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
> For example:
> 
> The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:
> 
>  a) Larry
>  b) Leonardo
>  c) Lawrence
>  d) Louis

e) Lush
f) Lawbreaker

;P


> The trouble is I don't know what it stands for.
> 
> Some other famous middle names I thought of are:
> 
>  Michael G Schwern

I'll be interested to hear what sort of guesses you come up with.


>  brian d foy

Anyone familiar with the BRIAN D FOY style guide
(http://www.pair.com/comdog/style.html) can answer this one.


> Any others? Does Larry have a middle name?

Does Jarkko have a middle name?  Is it pronounceable by humans?


From andy at petdance.com  Sat Feb 24 17:08:07 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:08:07 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <45E0DFEA.80801@pobox.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<45E0DFEA.80801@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <2F0D61DF-9DF0-427B-A2E1-2FCB3DF6E880@petdance.com>


On Feb 24, 2007, at 7:01 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

>>  a) Larry
>>  b) Leonardo
>>  c) Lawrence
>>  d) Louis
>
> e) Lush
> f) Lawbreaker

g) Lothario
h) Llama lover
i) Lounge lizard
j) Lyricizer

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From andrew.clapp at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 17:20:23 2007
From: andrew.clapp at gmail.com (Andrew Clapp)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:20:23 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ac4498880702241720n76cf67e5o48709b5e5a07aa7a@mail.gmail.com>

Here's an obvious one for you.

What word best completes this trio: Laziness, Impatience, and ???

-ASC

On 2/24/07, Andrew Savige <ajsavige at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> I'll be running a Perl quiz night at my local Perl mongers group
> and am looking for questions.
>
> I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
> For example:
>
> The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:
>
> a) Larry
> b) Leonardo
> c) Lawrence
> d) Louis
>
> The trouble is I don't know what it stands for.
>
> Some other famous middle names I thought of are:
>
> Michael G Schwern
> brian d foy
>
> Any others? Does Larry have a middle name?
>
> Anyway, if you know any of these middle names or can suggest some nice
> ideas for Perl quiz questions, please let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> /-\ (hoping noone from Sydney.pm is lurking on this list or
>      finds the archives ;-)
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



-- 
"Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
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From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 24 17:45:54 2007
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:45:54 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <45E0DFEA.80801@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <653318.68356.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

--- Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> (Re: what does the G in Michael G Schwern stand for?)
> 
> I'll be interested to hear what sort of guesses you come up with.

Can't resist that. :-)

* Guido
* Gates
* Gigolo
* Grady
* Gonzo
* Garfield
* Galahad
* Grover
* Gomer
* Gilmore
* George
* Godfrey
* Gamester
* Grungy

Cheers,
/-\
 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 24 18:09:13 2007
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:09:13 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <2F0D61DF-9DF0-427B-A2E1-2FCB3DF6E880@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <224875.40943.qm@web56404.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

--- Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> g) Lothario
> h) Llama lover
> i) Lounge lizard
> j) Lyricizer

k) Law-abiding
l) Ladies-man
m) Lady-killer
n) Larrikin
o) Lusty
p) Lazarus

Cheers,
/-\


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 18:43:56 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:43:56 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880702241720n76cf67e5o48709b5e5a07aa7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ac4498880702241720n76cf67e5o48709b5e5a07aa7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45E0F7EC.8060903@pobox.com>

Andrew Clapp wrote:
> Here's an obvious one for you.
> 
> What word best completes this trio: Laziness, Impatience, and ???

Beer.

Pie would also be acceptable.


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Sat Feb 24 18:49:46 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:49:46 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (Andrew Savige's
	message of "Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:27:25 +1100 (EST)")
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <86lkin0x4l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Savige <ajsavige at yahoo.com.au> writes:

Andrew> I'll be running a Perl quiz night at my local Perl mongers group
Andrew> and am looking for questions.

Andrew> I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
Andrew> For example:

Andrew> The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:

http://www.lightlink.com/fors/ provides the clue!

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 18:57:48 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:57:48 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <86lkin0x4l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<86lkin0x4l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <45E0FB2C.5030708@pobox.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Savige <ajsavige at yahoo.com.au> writes:
> 
> Andrew> I'll be running a Perl quiz night at my local Perl mongers group
> Andrew> and am looking for questions.
> 
> Andrew> I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
> Andrew> For example:
> 
> Andrew> The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:
> 
> http://www.lightlink.com/fors/ provides the clue!

I knew it, Lucifer!



From mikeraz at patch.com  Sat Feb 24 19:01:54 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:01:54 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl quiz night: middle names
In-Reply-To: <86lkin0x4l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <633437.73844.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<86lkin0x4l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20070225030154.GB30345@patch.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> Andrew> I thought it might be fun to have a question on famous middle names.
> Andrew> For example:
> 
> Andrew> The L in Randal L Schwartz stands for:
> 
> http://www.lightlink.com/fors/ provides the clue!

Liberated?

-- 
      Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
          http://www.patch.com/words/ 
  The fortune cookie says:
* gb notes that fdisk thinks his cdrom can store one terabyte
	-- Seen on #Linux


From wcooley at nakedape.cc  Sat Feb 24 19:50:17 2007
From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:50:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>

On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 02:36 -0800, Josh Heumann wrote:

> If they're insterested, you can give a little talk at work.

That reminds me... I've been thinking of doing a talk at work about
test-driven development and testing with Perl, but I don't really have
time to put together slides.  While I can fill in the talky parts, but
need some points to follow; does anyone (Schwern?) have slides I could
use?

Wil
-- 
Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
http://nakedape.cc/wiki/
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From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 24 22:05:13 2007
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:05:13 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
Message-ID: <933563.46083.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

--- Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc> wrote:
> That reminds me... I've been thinking of doing a talk at work about
> test-driven development and testing with Perl, but I don't really have
> time to put together slides.  While I can fill in the talky parts, but
> need some points to follow; does anyone (Schwern?) have slides I could
> use?

I've used these Test::Tutorial slides by chromatic and Michael Guido Schwern
and found them excellent:

 http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/perl/Test-Tutorial.pdf

Don't know whether they're the latest version though.

Cheers,
/-\


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Feb 24 22:30:54 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:30:54 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <933563.46083.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <933563.46083.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200702242230.54427.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Saturday 24 February 2007 22:05, Andrew Savige wrote:

> I've used these Test::Tutorial slides by chromatic and Michael Guido
> Schwern and found them excellent:
>
>  http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/perl/Test-Tutorial.pdf
>
> Don't know whether they're the latest version though.

They're from summer 2002, I believe, but I promise we didn't lie about how to 
do things, even knowing that you'd read them almost five years later.

-- c

From wcooley at nakedape.cc  Sat Feb 24 23:09:58 2007
From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:09:58 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <200702242230.54427.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <933563.46083.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<200702242230.54427.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <1172387398.1213.38.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>

On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 22:30 -0800, chromatic wrote:
> On Saturday 24 February 2007 22:05, Andrew Savige wrote:
> 
> > I've used these Test::Tutorial slides by chromatic and Michael Guido
> > Schwern and found them excellent:
> >
> >  http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/perl/Test-Tutorial.pdf
> >
> > Don't know whether they're the latest version though.
> 
> They're from summer 2002, I believe, but I promise we didn't lie about how to 
> do things, even knowing that you'd read them almost five years later.

Yeah, it looks good; remarkably current for something nearly 5 years
old.  Thanks!

Wil
-- 
Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
http://nakedape.cc/wiki/
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From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Sat Feb 24 23:33:04 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:33:04 +0200
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
	<1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
Message-ID: <200702250933.04496.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

On Sunday 25 February 2007, Wil Cooley wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 02:36 -0800, Josh Heumann wrote:
> > If they're insterested, you can give a little talk at work.
>
> That reminds me... I've been thinking of doing a talk at work about
> test-driven development and testing with Perl, but I don't really have
> time to put together slides.  While I can fill in the talky parts, but
> need some points to follow; does anyone (Schwern?) have slides I could
> use?

In addition to the Test::Tutorial slides there's also:

http://www.szabgab.com/perl_in_test_automation.html

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 03:15:23 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 03:15:23 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of testing
In-Reply-To: <1172387398.1213.38.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
References: <933563.46083.qm@web56414.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<200702242230.54427.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<1172387398.1213.38.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
Message-ID: <200702250315.23824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Wil Cooley
# on Saturday 24 February 2007 11:09 pm:

>Yeah, it looks good; remarkably current for something nearly 5 years
>old. ?Thanks!

Yeah, now the question is:  If you had known it would take this long to 
sink in, would you have named it Test::Dammit instead?

--Eric
-- 
Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory
almost as soon as you feel it.
--Paul Graham
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 04:44:38 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 04:44:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] mini language for PPI
Message-ID: <200702250444.39692.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Anybody looked at Perl::MinimumVersion?  It's interesting, but appears 
to be headed toward the same embedded knowledge that Module::ScanDeps 
is stuck in.  Me thinks it should load data files in order to acquire 
rules more quickly.

The nice thing about PMV is that it uses PPI ("I Parse Perl"), which 
gives you a PDOM.  So, if you were designing a DSL for PDOM, what would 
it look like?  xpath?

An example:

a list of checks:
		_perl_5005_modules    => version->new('5.005'),
 ...
	my $check = List::Util::first { $self->$_()    }
	            sort { $CHECKS{$b} <=> $CHECKS{$a} }
	            grep { $CHECKS{$_}  >  $filter     }
	            keys %CHECKS;
and then the sub (err, method: the $_ up --^ there)

  sub _perl_5005_modules {
	shift->Document->find_any( sub {
		$_[1]->isa('PPI::Statement::Include')
		and
		$_[1]->module
		and (
			$_[1]->module eq 'Tie::Array'
			or
			$_[1]->module =~ /\bException\b/
			or
			$_[1]->module =~ /\bThread\b/
			or
			$_[1]->module =~ /^Error\b/
			or
			$_[1]->module eq 'base'
		)
	} );
  }

Now, it seems like something in that sub ought to be a given.  Maybe 
just less $_[1]'ing and possibly ->'ing.  Though maybe just a more 
general "use_a_module" data-driven check (ala switch.)

Also, in the case of the constant pragma hashref syntax, we need to look 
at $_[1]->schild(2) and then possibly that node (if it is a list, but 
if it is a block, that's what we were looking for) has a child of 
interest, which, if it is a "block" says that the constant.pm from 
5.6.2 (or so) won't do.

in short:
  use constant ({foo => 1});
  use constant {foo => 1};

Is a pure-perl dsl going to be expressive enough or do we just need to 
parse a string of something more tailored to the application?  Maybe 
just more standard checks and a bunch of data to drive them.  I would 
like to see PPI's find have a more concise DSL, but that's not strictly 
necessary for PMV.

Aside:  I see that user-defined pragma are available in 5.10, but I'm 
not seeing how unimport() could be automatically called when leaving 
the block.  Is that not possible?  I suppose we could take a cue from 
David (ala Class::Meta::Express) there and have the called function 
unimport.

  use pdom;
  find {
    is "foo" and whatever;
  };

Though I'm not sure that works here since is() and whatever() are still 
available after the block at compile time.  It does at least get rid of 
them as methods.

It's late, err early.

--Eric
-- 
Issues of control, repair, improvement, cost, or just plain
understandability all come down strongly in favor of open source
solutions to complex problems of any sort.
--Robert G. Brown
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 04:13:20 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:13:20 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
References: <20070220103620.GA7969@joshheumann.com>
	<1172375417.1213.33.camel@spartacus.nakedape.priv>
Message-ID: <200702270413.21147.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Wil Cooley
# on Saturday 24 February 2007 07:50 pm:

>That reminds me... I've been thinking of doing a talk at work about
>test-driven development and testing with Perl, but I don't really have
>time to put together slides.

Hey!  I've been thinking that what pdx.pm really needs is a field trip.  
Just imagine us walking eight abreast down the hallway to deliver the 
gospel of TDD under the glare of fluorescent lights (hmm, requires a 
low camera angle and somebody wearing a snakeskin cowboy hat.)

Ok, just kidding (unless your boss is really into that sort of thing.)

Despite the apparent success of this (frayed) thread, we still need a 
victim, err topic for the March meeting.  Maybe "Show&Tell+Q&A" (aka 
"lightning talks"), but for the moment I'll maintain the posture/threat 
that the topic is "python" (or, if that doesn't scare you, "lua" (or, 
if you're not scared yet, "erlang" (alternatively, if you're still 
unafraid: "lisp!")))

--Eric
-- 
You can't whack a chisel without a big wooden mallet.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Tue Feb 27 10:59:33 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:59:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subject: Re:  The art of volunteering
In-Reply-To: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
Message-ID: <FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>

Would people like a local smalltalk programmer to give a talk?
He's not a seaside expert (at least I don't think he is, I could be  
wrong about that) but he can talk smalltalk and squeek.

regards,

Tom K
kellert at ohsu.edu
503-494-2442


On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Rik Smoody wrote:

> Hi Tom,
> I probably could do that on short notice
> and it's the kind of stuff I do and promote.
>
> When/where is the meeting?
> How many people typically show up?
> I'm not directly familiar with the group.
> And http://portland.pm.org/
> seems not to be very current... it suggests seeing the kwiki
> which simply shows
> HaCKeD By ErD at L www.spygrup.org
> ... did some vandal hit and leave their graffiti?
>
> -- 
> Rik Fischer Smoody
> If you see this signature, I am away from my usual interface.
> Rik3 (at) smoo dot com
>
>
>



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 11:09:22 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:09:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki
In-Reply-To: <7E82CE77-F2CF-4AE8-86C7-60963A5CE9D3@ohsu.edu>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<7E82CE77-F2CF-4AE8-86C7-60963A5CE9D3@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200702271109.22767.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas J Keller
# on Tuesday 27 February 2007 10:56 am:

>Looks like the kwiki has been hacked.

Thanks for the heads-up Tom.  Yeah, all our base are belong to ErD :-D  
Not really hacked though, just spammed.

FYI, if anyone notices a page being replaced by some spam, all you need 
to do is go to the previous revision, select edit and then save.

Meanwhile, anybody want to run a "security audit" against the link he 
posted?

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Tue Feb 27 12:15:22 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:15:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki
In-Reply-To: <200702271109.22767.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<7E82CE77-F2CF-4AE8-86C7-60963A5CE9D3@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271109.22767.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20070227201522.GA15003@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:09:22AM -0800, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from Thomas J Keller
> # on Tuesday 27 February 2007 10:56 am:
> 
> >Looks like the kwiki has been hacked.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up Tom.  Yeah, all our base are belong to ErD :-D  
> Not really hacked though, just spammed.
> 
> FYI, if anyone notices a page being replaced by some spam, all you need 
> to do is go to the previous revision, select edit and then save.
> 
> Meanwhile, anybody want to run a "security audit" against the link he 
> posted?

I got the same hack against two of my five kwiki homepages.  After
a repair (and after changing the archive page so they would not
attract further attentions) I did a "chown root.root" on them to
lock them down.

I imagine "phase two" is selling the changed pages to Wikispammers
or other nefarious villains.  So revision pages that show the mods
will probably be treated as vulnerabilities.  Best to change the
single line in the archive file, too.

I would like to maintain the open nature of my Kwiki's;  the attacks
to date have only been annoyances.  If they get worse, I would like
to hear about more robust ways to slow them down, while keeping as
much anonymity/openness as possible.

And if anyone wants to find the person responsible, kidnap them, and
bribe the Turkish government to keep them in prison forever, I will
donate money to sweeten the bribe.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From sdeckelmann at chrisking.com  Tue Feb 27 12:21:08 2007
From: sdeckelmann at chrisking.com (Selena Deckelmann)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:21:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki
In-Reply-To: <20070227201522.GA15003@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<7E82CE77-F2CF-4AE8-86C7-60963A5CE9D3@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271109.22767.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<20070227201522.GA15003@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <FE7B67BD-3215-412A-8F02-4AAFC5D7D43E@chrisking.com>


On Feb 27, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> And if anyone wants to find the person responsible, kidnap them, and
> bribe the Turkish government to keep them in prison forever, I will
> donate money to sweeten the bribe.

Or, maybe, just give them some real work to do.

-selena


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:20:10 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:20:10 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas J Keller
# on Tuesday 27 February 2007 10:59 am:

>Would people like a local smalltalk programmer to give a talk?
>He's not a seaside expert (at least I don't think he is, I could be ?
>wrong about that) but he can talk smalltalk and squeek.

Going once, going twice...

--Eric
-- 
"...our schools have been scientifically designed to
prevent overeducation from happening."
--William Troy Harris
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From jgoalby at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 15:16:42 2007
From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:16:42 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New way to write Perl in Vista
In-Reply-To: <FE7B67BD-3215-412A-8F02-4AAFC5D7D43E@chrisking.com>
Message-ID: <BAY119-F40429DAA8EC54DC407B862BB820@phx.gbl>

Time to upgrade to Vista:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&mode=related&search=

John.



From xrdawson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 17:05:26 2007
From: xrdawson at gmail.com (Chris Dawson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:05:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <659b9ea30702271705w348b3835x12e3ec53a33e1265@mail.gmail.com>

I'm interested.

On 2/27/07, Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> # from Thomas J Keller
> # on Tuesday 27 February 2007 10:59 am:
>
> >Would people like a local smalltalk programmer to give a talk?
> >He's not a seaside expert (at least I don't think he is, I could be
> >wrong about that) but he can talk smalltalk and squeek.
>
> Going once, going twice...
>
> --Eric
> --
> "...our schools have been scientifically designed to
> prevent overeducation from happening."
> --William Troy Harris
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Feb 27 17:21:38 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:21:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <659b9ea30702271705w348b3835x12e3ec53a33e1265@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<659b9ea30702271705w348b3835x12e3ec53a33e1265@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45E4D922.6020808@pobox.com>

Chris Dawson wrote:
> I'm interested.

Me, too.  Anyone who does OO should learn some Smalltalk if only to be
completely dismayed that 40 years after they got OO right we continue to get
it so wrong.


> On 2/27/07, *Eric Wilhelm* <scratchcomputing at gmail.com
> <mailto:scratchcomputing at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     # from Thomas J Keller
>     # on Tuesday 27 February 2007 10:59 am:
> 
>     >Would people like a local smalltalk programmer to give a talk?
>     >He's not a seaside expert (at least I don't think he is, I could be
>     >wrong about that) but he can talk smalltalk and squeek.
> 
>     Going once, going twice...
> 
>     --Eric
>     --
>     "...our schools have been scientifically designed to
>     prevent overeducation from happening."
>     --William Troy Harris
>     ---------------------------------------------------
>         http://scratchcomputing.com
>     ---------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     Pdx-pm-list mailing list
>     Pdx-pm-list at pm.org <mailto:Pdx-pm-list at pm.org>
>     http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list


From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Feb 27 17:27:39 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:27:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <45E4D922.6020808@pobox.com>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<659b9ea30702271705w348b3835x12e3ec53a33e1265@mail.gmail.com>
	<45E4D922.6020808@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200702271727.40264.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 17:21, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Me, too.  Anyone who does OO should learn some Smalltalk if only to be
> completely dismayed that 40 years after they got OO right we continue to
> get it so wrong.

I'm boycotting Smalltalk until they add Object#isa and Object#can as static 
methods, but I'd like to hear this talk anyway.

-- s

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 17:48:41 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:48:41 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200702271748.41337.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Eric Wilhelm
# on Tuesday 27 February 2007 01:20 pm:

>Going once, going twice...

Sold!

--Eric
-- 
Speak softly and carry a big carrot.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 21:11:38 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:11:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <200702271748.41337.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <49199.71.193.163.150.1172600385.squirrel@webmail.ipns.com>
	<FE4CB60D-6051-42EE-9239-E9189DE91ADB@ohsu.edu>
	<200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702271748.41337.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702272111h1221b937m70c5f11c1d9ce601@mail.gmail.com>

I'd also love to see some smalltalk, possibly give me a reason to poke
at squeek again.

On 2/27/07, Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> # from Eric Wilhelm
> # on Tuesday 27 February 2007 01:20 pm:
>
> >Going once, going twice...
>
> Sold!
>
> --Eric
> --
> Speak softly and carry a big carrot.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 01:34:53 2007
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:34:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] small smalltalk talk
In-Reply-To: <200702271320.10673.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <6856.91593.qm@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> >wrong about that) but he can talk smalltalk and squeek.
> 
> Going once, going twice...

Argh!  I would love to go to that talk :(

Once I understood how the language gets away without having if/else
expressions (ifTrue and ifFalse are methods on a boolean object), a
beautiful enlightenment hit.  I started regularly grepping my OO code
bases for "if" statements and started finding subtle bugs I had never
recognized before.

Believe it or not, studying Java made my Perl OO better.  Studying
Smalltalk (Squeek, actually), helped even more.  Do it!

Cheers,
Ovid

--

Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Feb 28 08:51:15 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:51:15 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
Message-ID: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>


Folks:

I dealt with the previous set of kwiki attacks by setting all my
HomePage files to root ownership, read only.  There is a new variant
out there that is attacking pages listed in "Changes".  

As a quick fix, I backed up my pages into a tar archive, then set
ALL the kwiki pages to root ownership, read only.  That is not a
good permanent fix, of course.  Obviously, I can't run the kwiki
pages nearly as openly in the future;  any suggestions for least
bad fixes?  

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Feb 28 09:05:03 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:05:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New way to write software in Vista
Message-ID: <20070228170503.GC27570@gate.kl-ic.com>


>Time to upgrade to Vista:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&mode=related&search=

----- Forwarded message from Dave Simmons <icnerd at ieee.org> -----

Reportedly, some people have figured out how to crack into Vista
using a Trojan horse that outputs to the sound system and issues
system commands to the voice recognition.  Apparently that
possibility never occured to the rocket scientists in Redmond.

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Feb 28 09:10:31 2007
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:10:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New way to write software in Vista
In-Reply-To: <20070228170503.GC27570@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228170503.GC27570@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280909400.16700@blackbox.fnordora.org>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

>
>> Time to upgrade to Vista:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&mode=related&search=
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Dave Simmons <icnerd at ieee.org> -----
>
> Reportedly, some people have figured out how to crack into Vista
> using a Trojan horse that outputs to the sound system and issues
> system commands to the voice recognition.  Apparently that
> possibility never occured to the rocket scientists in Redmond.

"Simon says `deltree -y c:\`!"

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
                   - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark

From jgoalby at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 09:16:51 2007
From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:16:51 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New way to write software in Vista
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280909400.16700@blackbox.fnordora.org>
Message-ID: <BAY119-F75FC19FFA59DD9ECCABF4BB810@phx.gbl>

>On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
>
> >
> >> Time to upgrade to Vista:
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&mode=related&search=
> >
> > ----- Forwarded message from Dave Simmons <icnerd at ieee.org> -----
> >
> > Reportedly, some people have figured out how to crack into Vista
> > using a Trojan horse that outputs to the sound system and issues
> > system commands to the voice recognition.  Apparently that
> > possibility never occured to the rocket scientists in Redmond.
>
>"Simon says `deltree -y c:\`!"

Right!  But it did occur to them.  That is why when you say it, it
comes out as gibberish.

I said: deltree -y c:\

Vista heard: Dell tree - why a seat can't slash

(This is actually what came out after about 6 attempts!)

John.



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 10:35:43 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:35:43 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Keith Lofstrom
# on Wednesday 28 February 2007 08:51 am:

>There is a new variant
>out there that is attacking pages listed in "Changes". ?

Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time to 
do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather lame, so 
in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a wiki.

Has anyone tried combust?

--Eric
-- 
"But as to modern architecture, let us drop it and let us take
modernistic out and shoot it at sunrise."
--F.L. Wright
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From bruce at drangle.com  Wed Feb 28 10:43:30 2007
From: bruce at drangle.com (Bruce J Keeler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:43:30 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time to 
> do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather lame, so 
> in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a wiki.
>   
How sophisticated are the attack scripts?  Would they be confused by 
something as simple as, say, changing the name of the form field that 
gets submitted?  Or adding a hidden field with a special value that gets 
checked by the wiki code?

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 10:44:19 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:44:19 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New way to write software in Vista
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-F75FC19FFA59DD9ECCABF4BB810@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY119-F75FC19FFA59DD9ECCABF4BB810@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200702281044.20010.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from John Goalby
# on Wednesday 28 February 2007 09:16 am:

>> > Reportedly, some people have figured out how to crack into Vista
>> > using a Trojan horse that outputs to the sound system and issues
>> > system commands to the voice recognition. ?Apparently that
>> > possibility never occured to the rocket scientists in Redmond.
>>
>>"Simon says `deltree -y c:\`!"
>
>Right! ?But it did occur to them. ?That is why when you say it, it
>comes out as gibberish.
>
>I said: deltree -y c:\
>
>Vista heard: Dell tree - why a seat can't slash

simon says:  press dee press e press el press tee press are press e 
press e press space press minus press why press space press cee press 
colon press backslash

You might have a hard time getting it to work, but an attacker is surely 
going to use finely tuned/debugged pre-recorded commands.  Anyway, 
there's probably an easter egg that maps "thbbt beep zorp geaur" to the 
builtin rootkit installer.

--Eric
-- 
"It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are 
in a hurry."
--Ralph's Observation
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 10:48:43 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:48:43 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
Message-ID: <200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Bruce J Keeler
# on Wednesday 28 February 2007 10:43 am:

>Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time
>> to do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather
>> lame, so in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out
>> of a wiki.
>
>How sophisticated are the attack scripts?  Would they be confused by
>something as simple as, say, changing the name of the form field that
>gets submitted?  Or adding a hidden field with a special value that
> gets checked by the wiki code?

Possibly, but if they become only slightly more sophisticated they will 
easily catch-up to that.

The sad truth is that we have more edit from bots than people.  I think 
that violates one of the "why wiki works" laws.

--Eric
-- 
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
--Albert Einstein
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Feb 28 10:53:53 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:53:53 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <45E5CFC1.2090407@pobox.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> There is a new variant
>> out there that is attacking pages listed in "Changes".  
> 
> Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time to 
> do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather lame, so 
> in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a wiki.
> 
> Has anyone tried combust?

The MediaWiki spam filtering extension is doing a good job keeping the crap
out of the perl-qa wiki.

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Feb 28 12:47:31 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:47:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from Keith Lofstrom
> # on Wednesday 28 February 2007 08:51 am:
>
>>There is a new variant
>>out there that is attacking pages listed in "Changes".
>
> Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time to
> do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather lame, so
> in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a wiki.

Or enable a user login feature.  With only rudimentary people checking it's
effective.


-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From allison at perl.org  Wed Feb 28 13:00:47 2007
From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:00:47 +0100
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <45E5ED7F.10001@perl.org>

Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> 
> Or enable a user login feature.  With only rudimentary people checking it's
> effective.

My kwiki site (http://flossfoundations.org/) is only editable in the 
"admin" section, which requires a login, but viewable by all. I confess, 
I hacked kwiki's templates to get it working exactly the way I wanted, 
but it was only a small hack.

Allison

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Feb 28 13:05:37 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:05:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <45E5ED7F.10001@perl.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<45E5ED7F.10001@perl.org>
Message-ID: <36475.170.135.112.12.1172696737.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Allison Randal wrote:
> Michael Rasmussen wrote:
>> Or enable a user login feature.  With only rudimentary people checking it's
>> effective.
>
> My kwiki site (http://flossfoundations.org/) is only editable in the
> "admin" section, which requires a login, but viewable by all. I confess,
> I hacked kwiki's templates to get it working exactly the way I wanted,
> but it was only a small hack.

See Eric, there you go.  And the expertise with the patch is local.

maybe you can twist it into a monger demo?  After we enjoy the smalltalk.  Well,
while you enjoy the smalltalk, I'm gonna be in Mexico.



-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 13:53:08 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:53:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <200702281353.09046.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael Rasmussen
# on Wednesday 28 February 2007 12:47 pm:

>> in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a
>> wiki.
>
>Or enable a user login feature. ?With only rudimentary people checking
> it's effective.

"I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out of a wiki."

By that, I mean it might be time to consider something else.

Again, combust?

  http://combust.develooper.com/

--Eric
-- 
"If you only know how to use a hammer, every problem begins to look like
a nail."
--Richard B. Johnson
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Feb 28 14:04:11 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:04:11 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281353.09046.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<200702281353.09046.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200702281404.11121.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 28 February 2007 13:53, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> By that, I mean it might be time to consider something else.
>
> Again, combust?
>
>   http://combust.develooper.com/

I've used it.  It's a little complex.  Being able to check a document into SVN 
and have it display is nice, though.

-- c

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 14:36:54 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:36:54 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281404.11121.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<34762.170.135.112.12.1172695651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<200702281353.09046.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200702281404.11121.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0702281436u75b22410j6a107a0381249465@mail.gmail.com>

so eric does this imply that the next few meetings will be design/code
sessions for a new site/wiki ???


On 2/28/07, chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 February 2007 13:53, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>
> > By that, I mean it might be time to consider something else.
> >
> > Again, combust?
> >
> >   http://combust.develooper.com/
>
> I've used it.  It's a little complex.  Being able to check a document into SVN
> and have it display is nice, though.
>
> -- c
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-- 
benh~