From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Mon Nov  7 13:20:07 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:20:07 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
Message-ID: <20051107212007.GE20957@joshheumann.com>

For those of you who thought we forgot, we're having a meeting!

November Meeting
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005 6:30pm at The LuckyLab

GAME NIGHT! This is a Games for Geeks night. I will be
bringing Spy Alley (for those of you who like deductive reasoning)
and Apples to Apples (for those of you who like to argue).
Tom Phoenix will be bringing some games, and Schwern will
supply at least one as well.  Feel free to add to the fray if you have
Star Wars Trivial Pursuit, Transformers Pictionary, or something even
more geeky (although I can't imagine there's anything more geeky than
Transformers Pictionary, if it exists).

This is a purely social meeting, so eat, drink and be geeky. 

The Lucky Lab's meeting room has been reserver out from under us, so if
someone wants to suggest another place that will work, I'm all ears.
Otherwise, we'll just take over a bunch of tables in the main area and
geek out.

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Nov  8 10:00:58 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:00:58 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <1131407028.15381.10.camel@localhost>
References: <20051107212007.GE20957@joshheumann.com>
	<1131407028.15381.10.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20051108180058.GB27207@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='chromatic' when='Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 03:43:48PM -0800'>
> If you missed the west side, there's plenty of space at OGI and it's
> pretty easy to reserve.  It's not far from the MAX line either.


Someone had the question as to which Lucky Lab we meet at.  We usually
meet near the one on Hawthorne, so that'd be the one I had in mind.

I haven't seen any more discussion about chromatic's idea.  Does anyone
have any opinions on OGI versus the Lab on Hawthorne?

J

From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Tue Nov  8 10:10:03 2005
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:10:03 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
Message-ID: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>

> <quote who='chromatic' when='Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 03:43:48PM -0800'>
> > If you missed the west side, there's plenty of space at OGI and it's
> > pretty easy to reserve.  It's not far from the MAX line either.
> 
> 
> Someone had the question as to which Lucky Lab we meet at.  We usually
> meet near the one on Hawthorne, so that'd be the one I had in mind.
> 
> I haven't seen any more discussion about chromatic's idea.

I never even saw the idea. :)

> Does anyone
> have any opinions on OGI versus the Lab on Hawthorne?

Downtown is much more convenient for me, as I'll already be there.

gabrielle

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Nov  8 10:23:12 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:23:12 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
Message-ID: <20051108182311.GD27207@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Roth, Gabrielle' when='Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:10:03AM -0700'>
> Downtown is much more convenient for me, as I'll already be there.

OGI's site lists their address as being in Beaverton.  Is that the
location you were thinking of, chromatic?

J

From krisb at ring.org  Tue Nov  8 10:19:40 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:19:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <20051108180058.GB27207@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511081018440.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Josh Heumann wrote:

> I haven't seen any more discussion about chromatic's idea.  Does anyone
> have any opinions on OGI versus the Lab on Hawthorne?

I like the max line idea.

-Kris


From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Nov  8 10:31:42 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:31:42 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <20051108182311.GD27207@joshheumann.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<20051108182311.GD27207@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <1131474703.15381.16.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 10:23 -0800, Josh Heumann wrote:

> <quote who='Roth, Gabrielle' when='Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:10:03AM -0700'>
> > Downtown is much more convenient for me, as I'll already be there.
> 
> OGI's site lists their address as being in Beaverton.  Is that the
> location you were thinking of, chromatic?

Yes, that's the one.  Several other tech groups meet there regularly,
which is why I thought of it.

-- c


From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 13:17:33 2005
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:17:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <1131474703.15381.16.camel@localhost>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<20051108182311.GD27207@joshheumann.com>
	<1131474703.15381.16.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>

Ideally I would like to stay downtown. I work out in hood river and I
don't make it back in to town until about 630 any way... and after an
hour on the road already I would rather avoid the "fun" of getting out
to Beverton... but then that's me being all self-absorbed.

benh~

On 11/8/05, chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 10:23 -0800, Josh Heumann wrote:
>
> > <quote who='Roth, Gabrielle' when='Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:10:03AM -0700'>
> > > Downtown is much more convenient for me, as I'll already be there.
> >
> > OGI's site lists their address as being in Beaverton.  Is that the
> > location you were thinking of, chromatic?
>
> Yes, that's the one.  Several other tech groups meet there regularly,
> which is why I thought of it.
>
> -- c
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From rootbeer at redcat.com  Tue Nov  8 13:30:48 2005
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:30:48 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <20051108180058.GB27207@joshheumann.com>
References: <20051107212007.GE20957@joshheumann.com>
	<1131407028.15381.10.camel@localhost>
	<20051108180058.GB27207@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <31086b240511081330v78d1020dwfc0af42a87107f31@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/8/05, Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> <quote who='chromatic' when='Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 03:43:48PM -0800'>
> > If you missed the west side, there's plenty of space at OGI and it's
> > pretty easy to reserve.  It's not far from the MAX line either.

The OGI facility that I've been to is in building #3 on this map.

    http://www.cpd.ogi.edu/map.asp

This is roughly a mile walk from either of the nearest Max stops,
Quatama/205th or Willow Creek, I believe. Is this the one that
chromatic was talking about?

--Tom Phoenix

From tex at off.org  Tue Nov  8 13:47:27 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:47:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<20051108182311.GD27207@joshheumann.com>
	<1131474703.15381.16.camel@localhost>
	<85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 01:17:33PM -0800, benh wrote:
> Ideally I would like to stay downtown. I work out in hood river and I
> don't make it back in to town until about 630 any way... and after an
> hour on the road already I would rather avoid the "fun" of getting out
> to Beverton... but then that's me being all self-absorbed.
> 
> benh~

	Seems like for a social meeting maybe we should stick w/ a
bar or the like? The rose and raindrop has a back room, maybe that's available.
	I'm also not big on driving all the way out to beaverton, but I
don't want to be locationist if there are folks who live out that way :)

	Austin

From jonlevitre at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  8 14:13:58 2005
From: jonlevitre at yahoo.com (Jon LeVitre)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:13:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <31086b240511081330v78d1020dwfc0af42a87107f31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051108221358.58662.qmail@web52715.mail.yahoo.com>

The Quatama stop is closer on foot (I'll assume that nobody reading
this list can leap the OHSU west campus in a single bound).

Jon

--- Tom Phoenix <rootbeer at redcat.com> wrote:

> On 11/8/05, Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> > <quote who='chromatic' when='Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 03:43:48PM
> -0800'>
> > > If you missed the west side, there's plenty of space at OGI and
> it's
> > > pretty easy to reserve.  It's not far from the MAX line either.
> 
> The OGI facility that I've been to is in building #3 on this map.
> 
>     http://www.cpd.ogi.edu/map.asp
> 
> This is roughly a mile walk from either of the nearest Max stops,
> Quatama/205th or Willow Creek, I believe. Is this the one that
> chromatic was talking about?
> 



	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 14:37:16 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:37:16 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <200511081437.16196.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Austin Schutz
# on Tuesday 08 November 2005 01:47 pm:

>????????Seems like for a social meeting maybe we should stick w/ a
>bar or the like? The rose and raindrop has a back room, maybe that's
> available. 

Yeah, I've been trying to understand what's going on here.  We're having 
a social meeting 3000 ft (as the crow flies) off of the max line at a 
university that serves beer somewhere in the twilight zone?

> I'm also not big on driving all the way out to beaverton, 
> but I don't want to be locationist if there are folks who live out
> that way :)

I live in Beaverton, but I'd rather ride the train downtown and get off 
at a block from Jax.

--Eric
-- 
We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals.
--Quarry worker's creed
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From mikeraz at patch.com  Tue Nov  8 15:10:50 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:10:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <200511081437.16196.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>
	<200511081437.16196.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <54542.170.135.241.45.1131491450.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> I live in Beaverton, but I'd rather ride the train downtown and get off
> at a block from Jax.

Jax, for those who haven't been there, is where the PLUG Advanced topics
meetings are held.  The room to the side is about 2/3 the size of the
Lucky Lab's meeting room.  They've extended happy hour appetizer pricing
to meeting people for the first hour or two of the meeting. It has lots of
tables, electricity and a decent tap selection or mixed drinks if you
prefer.

It would be a better option than Rose and Raindrop for anyone who prefers
smoke free environments.

Michael 'why didn't I mention it earlier?' R

-- 

   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity



From david at kineticode.com  Tue Nov  8 18:02:57 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:02:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <54542.170.135.241.45.1131491450.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>
	<200511081437.16196.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<54542.170.135.241.45.1131491450.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <FB112C54-14C1-4E39-930B-EDC067A3E75F@kineticode.com>

On Nov 8, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> It would be a better option than Rose and Raindrop for anyone who  
> prefers
> smoke free environments.

Yes, *please* make it smoke free.

David

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Nov  9 03:47:38 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 09 Nov 2005 03:47:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November Meeting this week
In-Reply-To: <54542.170.135.241.45.1131491450.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C35@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<85ddf48b0511081317t7f003b1ft66cde40f2d75aa31@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051108214726.GH16504@gblx.net>
	<200511081437.16196.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<54542.170.135.241.45.1131491450.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <86zmoeavqd.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com> writes:

Michael> Jax, for those who haven't been there, is where the PLUG
Michael> Advanced topics meetings are held.  The room to the side is
Michael> about 2/3 the size of the Lucky Lab's meeting room.  They've
Michael> extended happy hour appetizer pricing to meeting people for
Michael> the first hour or two of the meeting. It has lots of tables,
Michael> electricity and a decent tap selection or mixed drinks if you
Michael> prefer.

And free WiFi, for those of us who can't get enough net.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Nov  9 09:46:21 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:46:21 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
Message-ID: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>

Let's see, so far we've heard the following:

- we want someplace that's smoke-free
- we want someplace with beer
- we want someplace that's easy to get to
- we want someplace with free wifi
- we want someplace that has ponies we can pet and ride

Since there is no one location that satifies all of these, I'm sticking
with tradition.  We'll see you all at the Lucky Lab tonight at 6:30.

November Meeting
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005 6:30pm at The LuckyLab

GAME NIGHT! This is a Games for Geeks night. JoshHeumann will be
bringing Spy Alley and Apples to Apples, TomPhoenix will be bringing
some games, and MichaelSchwern will supply at least one as well. This is
a purely social meeting, so eat, drink and be geeky. 

From jerry.gay at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 10:41:08 2005
From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:41:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <1d9a3f400511091041m7c0814ay62b82cd96cde339b@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/9/05, Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> Since there is no one location that satifies all of these, I'm sticking
> with tradition.  We'll see you all at the Lucky Lab tonight at 6:30.
>
i was waiting until things were settled to decide, and since my wife
is off to pittsburgh and i've been craving some geek fun, i'll be
coming down from seattle tonight.

> November Meeting
> Wednesday, November 9th, 2005 6:30pm at The LuckyLab
>
see you there... i'll be bringing the cult classic card game, "Give Me
The Brain."

~jerry a.k.a. particle

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Nov  9 15:28:48 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 09 Nov 2005 15:28:48 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> writes:

Josh> Let's see, so far we've heard the following:
Josh> - we want someplace that's smoke-free
Josh> - we want someplace with beer
Josh> - we want someplace that's easy to get to
Josh> - we want someplace with free wifi
Josh> - we want someplace that has ponies we can pet and ride

Jax has all that except the ponies.  Is there a place with ponies
that beats that?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From tex at off.org  Wed Nov  9 16:22:08 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:22:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
	<86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 03:28:48PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> writes:
> 
> Josh> Let's see, so far we've heard the following:
> Josh> - we want someplace that's smoke-free
> Josh> - we want someplace with beer
> Josh> - we want someplace that's easy to get to
> Josh> - we want someplace with free wifi
> Josh> - we want someplace that has ponies we can pet and ride
> 
> Jax has all that except the ponies.  Is there a place with ponies
> that beats that?
> 

	None that I can think of. How about Jax for the next social
gathering?

	Austin

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Nov  9 16:24:38 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:24:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
	<86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20051110002438.GB2642@joshheumann.com>

> On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 03:28:48PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > Jax has all that except the ponies.  Is there a place with ponies
> > that beats that?

<quote who='Austin Schutz' when='Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 04:22:08PM -0800'>
> 	None that I can think of. How about Jax for the next social
> gathering?

Fine, fine, the people (three of you) have spoken.  Next time we have a
social meeting, we'll meet at Jax.  Tonight, we tear it up at the Lucky
Lab.

J

From pdxpm at punch.net  Wed Nov  9 17:34:31 2005
From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:34:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <20051110002438.GB2642@joshheumann.com>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>	<86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>
	<20051110002438.GB2642@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <4372A3A7.90604@punch.net>

> 
> Fine, fine, the people (three of you) have spoken.  Next time we have a
> social meeting, we'll meet at Jax.  Tonight, we tear it up at the Lucky
> Lab.
> 

Info about Jax:

http://www.jaxbar.com/
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=826+Sw+2nd+Avenue,+Portland,+OR
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&address=826+Sw+2nd+Avenue+&city=Portland&state=OR

Tom

From krisb at ring.org  Wed Nov  9 22:30:59 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:30:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


	Hi, someone asked me to list the games I brought, so here goes:

Games we played:
	Super Munchkin

Games we did not play:
	(Normal) Munchkin
	Star Munchkin
	TransAmerica
	Kill Doctor Lucky
	Save Doctor Lucky
	Bohnanza
	Guillotine
	Bang!
	Chez Geek


Thanks.

-Kris


From jerry.gay at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 00:30:26 2005
From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:30:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <1d9a3f400511100030n3f8eaff0j8dc3b4c17745838c@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/9/05, Kris Bosland <krisb at ring.org> wrote:
>
> Games we did not play:
>         Kill Doctor Lucky

you had "kill doctor lucky?" i wish i'd known, it's a great follow up
to "give me the brain."
maybe next time.

thanks to everyone for your hospitality. i came away from the evening
knowing how to lose at least four different games :)  it was good to
meet some of the portland crew, and hopefully i'll see you all again
soon.

~jerry

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 01:06:23 2005
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:06:23 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <1d9a3f400511100030n3f8eaff0j8dc3b4c17745838c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<1d9a3f400511100030n3f8eaff0j8dc3b4c17745838c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0511100106l97a9d8cwbeabeaef44a7472a@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks kris. I had a lot of fun tonight. Now if I could only get some sleep...?

benh~


On 11/10/05, jerry gay <jerry.gay at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/9/05, Kris Bosland <krisb at ring.org> wrote:
> >
> > Games we did not play:
> >         Kill Doctor Lucky
>
> you had "kill doctor lucky?" i wish i'd known, it's a great follow up
> to "give me the brain."
> maybe next time.
>
> thanks to everyone for your hospitality. i came away from the evening
> knowing how to lose at least four different games :)  it was good to
> meet some of the portland crew, and hopefully i'll see you all again
> soon.
>
> ~jerry
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Nov 10 03:55:23 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 10 Nov 2005 03:55:23 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] November meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>
References: <20051109174621.GA1078@joshheumann.com>
	<86br0t764v.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20051110002208.GK16504@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <86d5l867kk.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Austin" == Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> writes:

Austin> 	None that I can think of. How about Jax for the next social
Austin> gathering?

Well, if someone has a projector, Jax can provide the screen (if I recall),
so even the tech meetings can be held there.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Thu Nov 10 10:34:05 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:34:05 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511092226360.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20051110183404.GA7470@joshheumann.com>

Other games we played last night included:

Zendo
Give Me The Brain
Apples to Apples
Fluxx

Austin won the sur-prize which was a set of magnetic perl poetry so he
can code on his fridge.  The winner's quote: "Well, I guess if my kids
don't swallow them it's a good thing."

Thanks to everyone who came last night, we had a great time.

J

<quote who='Kris Bosland' when='Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 10:30:59PM -0800'>
> 
> 	Hi, someone asked me to list the games I brought, so here goes:
> 
> Games we played:
> 	Super Munchkin
> 
> Games we did not play:
> 	(Normal) Munchkin
> 	Star Munchkin
> 	TransAmerica
> 	Kill Doctor Lucky
> 	Save Doctor Lucky
> 	Bohnanza
> 	Guillotine
> 	Bang!
> 	Chez Geek
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Kris
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 10 10:55:30 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:55:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110183404.GA7470@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:

> Austin won the sur-prize which was a set of magnetic perl poetry so
> he can code on his fridge.

Holy crap.  I didn't know there were any of those left.  I don't
suppose someone else has decided to make them?

If not, Austin, are you taking offers? :)

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Nov 10 11:01:42 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:01:42 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1131649302.15381.168.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 10:55 -0800, Ovid wrote:

> Holy crap.  I didn't know there were any of those left.  I don't
> suppose someone else has decided to make them?

Actually the Torkingtons found a couple of bags full as they were
cleaning out their basement.  TPF has them now and hasn't decided what
to do with them, as far as I know.

-- c


From tex at off.org  Thu Nov 10 11:02:06 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:02:06 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051110183404.GA7470@joshheumann.com>
	<20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20051110190206.GN16504@gblx.net>

On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 10:55:30AM -0800, Ovid wrote:
> --- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> 
> > Austin won the sur-prize which was a set of magnetic perl poetry so
> > he can code on his fridge.
> 
> Holy crap.  I didn't know there were any of those left.  I don't
> suppose someone else has decided to make them?
> 
> If not, Austin, are you taking offers? :)
> 

	Sure, how about free? The kids can go find something else to choke
on. My wife hates these sort of "inside joke" trinkets anyway.

	Austin

From jkeroes at eli.net  Thu Nov 10 11:07:21 2005
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:07:21 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6B236AF8-F29C-4D8A-8D19-2ABAB8D9981C@eli.net>


On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Ovid wrote:

> --- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
>
>> Austin won the sur-prize which was a set of magnetic perl poetry so
>> he can code on his fridge.
>
> Holy crap.  I didn't know there were any of those left.  I don't
> suppose someone else has decided to make them?
>
> If not, Austin, are you taking offers? :)

I have a spare set too. Anyone interested?

Joshua the Other

From krisb at ring.org  Thu Nov 10 12:34:11 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:34:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] 20 questions
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511101233220.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


	Schwern asked me for a pointers to the 20 questions site, so here
it is:

http://www.20q.net/index.html

-Kris


From jkeroes at eli.net  Thu Nov 10 12:41:53 2005
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:41:53 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E3C51E11-300F-4443-9E77-8CC6B1538C7B@eli.net>


My extra Perl magnet set: taken by Randall Hansen!

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Thu Nov 10 12:51:42 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:51:42 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <E3C51E11-300F-4443-9E77-8CC6B1538C7B@eli.net>
References: <20051110185530.30857.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com>
	<E3C51E11-300F-4443-9E77-8CC6B1538C7B@eli.net>
Message-ID: <20051110205142.GC7470@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Joshua Keroes' when='Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 12:41:53PM -0800'>
> My extra Perl magnet set: taken by Randall Hansen!

For those who are concerned that they'll never get any of these little
gems ever again, pdx.pm has several more (~5, I believe) to give away at
future meetings.

J

From mikeraz at patch.com  Thu Nov 10 12:53:13 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:53:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] 20 questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511101233220.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511101233220.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <61112.170.135.241.46.1131655993.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Kris Bosland wrote:
> Schwern asked me for a pointers to the 20 questions site, so here it is:
>
> http://www.20q.net/index.html

That was fun.  For my first object I chose "corn on the cob".  The AI and
I disagree on a few points:

You were thinking of corn on the cob.
Does it taste good fried? You said Sometimes, I say No.
  I had delicious deep fried corn on the cob in Georgia.  Suspect the
answer depends on whether or not the person has spent time in the deep
south.

Would you use it in a garden? You said No, I say Yes.
   I wouldn't use it in the nature of the "use" like I'd use a hoe. This
question doesn't quite make sense.

Are there many different sorts of it? You said No, I say Yes.
   There are?

Does it have seeds? You said Yes, I say No.
   What the heck is corn if not seeds?

Is it found in salad bars? You said Sometimes, I say No.
   Experience base issue.

Can it float? You said Yes, I say Doubtful.
   What do you all say?  I closed my eyes and imagined a pot of boiling
water with corn on the cob.  My cobs were floating.  Fantasy or memory?

-- 

   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity



From marvin at rectangular.com  Thu Nov 10 13:07:43 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:07:43 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] 20 questions
In-Reply-To: <61112.170.135.241.46.1131655993.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511101233220.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<61112.170.135.241.46.1131655993.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <8CF18E92-B9AE-4915-8096-2358987BBB46@rectangular.com>


On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> The AI and I disagree on a few points:

The AI bot is apparently designed so that over time it will come to  
reflect popular wisdom.

It got "soccer ball", but I "beat" it with "foie gras".  Seems it  
doesn't know too much about goose livers yet.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Nov 10 16:43:03 2005
From: alan at clueserver.org (alan)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:43:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Games
In-Reply-To: <20051110190206.GN16504@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511101642160.993-100000@www.fnordora.org>

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Austin Schutz wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 10:55:30AM -0800, Ovid wrote:
> > --- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Austin won the sur-prize which was a set of magnetic perl poetry so
> > > he can code on his fridge.
> > 
> > Holy crap.  I didn't know there were any of those left.  I don't
> > suppose someone else has decided to make them?
> > 
> > If not, Austin, are you taking offers? :)
> > 
> 
> 	Sure, how about free? The kids can go find something else to choke
> on. My wife hates these sort of "inside joke" trinkets anyway.

I cured my daughter of putting objects in her mouth a long time ago.  Just 
get one of those dried hot pepper plants.

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing." 
                  - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark


From kellert at ohsu.edu  Fri Nov 11 12:49:22 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:49:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] formmail and spam filters
Message-ID: <40A02350-6DF0-4985-9091-CE2519944D9E@ohsu.edu>

Greetings,
Slightly off topic:
My website uses a cgi formmail script and has worked fine until a  
couple of days ago. At that time my place-of-work installed an email  
spam filter which junks email that is not from where it purports to  
be from. I think this is s----canning my cgi generated emails. Has  
anyone heard of this problem? Do you know a workaround?

Thanks,
Tom K.


Tom Keller, Ph.D.
http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core
kellert at ohsu.edu
503-494-2442

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From rootbeer at redcat.com  Fri Nov 11 13:16:05 2005
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:16:05 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] formmail and spam filters
In-Reply-To: <40A02350-6DF0-4985-9091-CE2519944D9E@ohsu.edu>
References: <40A02350-6DF0-4985-9091-CE2519944D9E@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <31086b240511111316s52d84bf6yf53a1014f80b6e68@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/11/05, Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> wrote:

> Do you know a workaround?

You could try to convince the person running the filter to let you add
the secret key at the source, e.g.:

   X-I-am-not-spam: pa$$word

But it's probably easier to point your mail-sending program at an
address without a spam filter at all. If the person running the filter
won't give you even THAT, the meany, you could send the mail to a
special-purpose gmail account with an unguessable name. By pulling
that in via POP, you'll avoid the spam filter. Let me know if you need
a gmail invite; they're easier to find than a Starbucks these days.

Cheers!

--Tom Phoenix

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 09:23:12 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 09:23:12 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
Message-ID: <200511130923.12766.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

Has anyone else had this same sort of issue?  I got tired of naming 
tests 00-foo.t, 01-bar.t, etc because of a few reasons:

1.  I can remember the name much better than the number (when I want to 
run or edit a test, having to figure out the number before tab-complete 
will work is annoying.)

2.  I don't know what order I want to run them in when I create them, 
and want to be able to change that order later.

~3.  vim thinks that *.t files are "tads" format.  (I know there's a way 
around this, but this is more a "yet another reason" than a sole 
motivation.)

So, I got a start on the Perl Test Juggler (ptj), and it looks like it 
will work.  For now, it only works on real operating systems because 
the current method is very symlinky.

The code is in my svn/, but there's no installer yet, so you have to 
*really* want to try it.  It's also not quite production-ready, so 
feedback is really cool.

"ptj init t/" will rename all of your /^\d\d-(.*)\.t/ tests to $1.pl and 
create symlinks back from the original names to the .pl files.  It will 
also create t/order.ptj, which allows you to rearrange the order with 
"dd,p" in vim.  It also sorts your MANIFEST file and makes sure that 
all of the *.t tests are included.  If it detects that you're in an svn 
or svk working directory, it does the rename as "$vcs mv" and then does 
an add of the new symlinks.  (Unfortunately, this is currently an 
irreversible svn action (unless I break it into two steps make it 
automatically checkin between the rename and the symlink creation.)

"ptj up t/" will update the symlinks if you've changed the t/order.ptj 
file.  It also does the MANIFEST and vcs tricks.

I don't use cvs, but it's possible to add support for it (except it 
doesn't support symlinks right?)

Ok.   That's about all it does.  It's possible to do it on windows, but 
then it only re-orders the tests (in an svn-aware way.)  Would you want 
to go without symlinks on *nix-like systems?

Even if you don't want to use symlinks, the ability to re-order your 
tests automatically (including updating MANIFEST and doing all of the 
svn/svk/cvs stuff) has to be at least somewhat useful.

Thoughts?  If there's enough interest, I could give a presentation as 
early as the next pm meeting.

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so 
ingenious."
--Murphy's Second Corollary
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From tex at off.org  Sun Nov 13 10:09:11 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:09:11 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
In-Reply-To: <200511130923.12766.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200511130923.12766.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051113180911.GB11939@gblx.net>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 09:23:12AM -0800, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
...
> 
> So, I got a start on the Perl Test Juggler (ptj), and it looks like it 
> will work.  For now, it only works on real operating systems because 
> the current method is very symlinky.
> 
...
> 
> Thoughts?  If there's enough interest, I could give a presentation as 
> early as the next pm meeting.
> 

	Seems like a good candidate for a lightning talk.

	Austin

From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Sun Nov 13 11:50:08 2005
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:50:08 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
In-Reply-To: <200511130923.12766.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> 2.  I don't know what order I want to run them in when I create them, 
> and want to be able to change that order later.

Though it may be convenient to run them in a particular order, a
"good" property of a test suite is "test isolation"; that is, you
should be able to run the tests in any order (the --shuffle option
of Test::Harness prove command helps test that property).

/-\


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From andy at petdance.com  Sun Nov 13 13:24:09 2005
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:24:09 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
In-Reply-To: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0761E1D8-FBBE-448D-A856-66AD0D80CCA8@petdance.com>


On Nov 13, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Andrew Savige wrote:
>
> Though it may be convenient to run them in a particular order, a
> "good" property of a test suite is "test isolation"; that is, you
> should be able to run the tests in any order (the --shuffle option
> of Test::Harness prove command helps test that property).

That's exactly why I added --shuffle.  Also, imagine that you have a  
set of tests, A, B and C, and C only succeeds because B has a side- 
effect that C relies on, inadvertantly.  If you never run  them in a  
different order, you'll never know that.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance



From randall at sonofhans.net  Sun Nov 13 14:13:04 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:13:04 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
In-Reply-To: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7DCC43AB-0F54-456A-B1E3-95476BB6BF36@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 13, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Andrew Savige wrote:

> Though it may be convenient to run them in a particular order, a
> "good" property of a test suite is "test isolation"; that is, you
> should be able to run the tests in any order (the --shuffle option
> of Test::Harness prove command helps test that property).

josh (can i get a witness?) and i discovered this the hard way last  
year, working on a project with over 5k unit tests.  granularity and  
repeatability are exactly as important as coverage and correctness.

having said that, i really like the \d+\w+ naming scheme.  e.g.:

0xx_xxx : test the test system and base classes
1xx_xxx : test the primary objects
...
8xx_xxx : reports and static data
9xx_xxx : automated interface tests

having a consistent naming scheme makes it much easier to work with a  
few dozen test files.

r


From andy at petdance.com  Sun Nov 13 15:29:04 2005
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:29:04 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rearranging tests
In-Reply-To: <7DCC43AB-0F54-456A-B1E3-95476BB6BF36@sonofhans.net>
References: <20051113195009.99941.qmail@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7DCC43AB-0F54-456A-B1E3-95476BB6BF36@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <1C33AFFE-3178-49EC-BBA3-0DEC41ACA16F@petdance.com>

> having said that, i really like the \d+\w+ naming scheme.  e.g.:
>
> 0xx_xxx : test the test system and base classes
> 1xx_xxx : test the primary objects
> ...
> 8xx_xxx : reports and static data
> 9xx_xxx : automated interface tests

Or use subdirectories.  See WWW::Mechanize's test layout.

http://svn.perl.org/modules/www-mechanize/trunk/t/
http://svn.perl.org/modules/www-mechanize/trunk/t/live/
http://svn.perl.org/modules/www-mechanize/trunk/t/local/

That makes it very easy to include and exclude sets of tests.

prove -r recurses through subdirectories.

xoxo,
Andy


-- 
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance



From ben.prew at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 10:55:45 2005
From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:55:45 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
Message-ID: <24f4b2e80511141055o6d5814d4qf7fbf632f9a49afd@mail.gmail.com>

I'm working on a system that has an ncurses interface, and I'm wondering if
I can test it with perl-expect, or possibly something else?

I looked at the tcl expect docs, and it said that I may be able to do some
testing with tcl, but I was wondering if perl had this same support?

Has anyone tried similar testing with a TUI before?

Thanks

--
Ben Prew
ben.prew at gmail.com
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From tex at off.org  Mon Nov 14 11:51:17 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:51:17 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
In-Reply-To: <24f4b2e80511141055o6d5814d4qf7fbf632f9a49afd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <24f4b2e80511141055o6d5814d4qf7fbf632f9a49afd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051114195117.GD11939@gblx.net>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 10:55:45AM -0800, Ben Prew wrote:
> I'm working on a system that has an ncurses interface, and I'm wondering if
> I can test it with perl-expect, or possibly something else?
> 
> I looked at the tcl expect docs, and it said that I may be able to do some
> testing with tcl, but I was wondering if perl had this same support?
> 
	Yes, you can. But there is no inherent curses login in expect
(or Expect.pm), so you will have to look for the specific curses control
codes in the output, as opposed to being able to look for more abstract
things like 'reverse video' or the like.
	Unless there has been significant development on the Tcl tool, the
level of support in this regard should be the same.

> Has anyone tried similar testing with a TUI before?
> 

	I'm not sure what 'TUI' means, but I have used expect to capture
data from network devices which only supported curses. It's not that hard,
just a matter of turning on exp_internal and seeing what the UI is spitting
into the stream at you at any given point.

	Austin

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 14 12:00:52 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:00:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
In-Reply-To: <20051114195117.GD11939@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20051114200052.27886.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> wrote:

> 	I'm not sure what 'TUI' means, but I have used expect to capture
> data from network devices which only supported curses.

Oh, Austin.  You're going to kick yourself.  Here's a hint:  A "TUI" is
not a "GUI" (and Ben was talking about Curses) :)

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From tex at off.org  Mon Nov 14 12:10:56 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:10:56 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
In-Reply-To: <20051114200052.27886.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051114195117.GD11939@gblx.net>
	<20051114200052.27886.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20051114201056.GE11939@gblx.net>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 12:00:52PM -0800, Ovid wrote:
> --- Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> wrote:
> 
> > 	I'm not sure what 'TUI' means, but I have used expect to capture
> > data from network devices which only supported curses.
> 
> Oh, Austin.  You're going to kick yourself.  Here's a hint:  A "TUI" is
> not a "GUI" (and Ben was talking about Curses) :)
> 

	"Ouch".

	Well google shows a few, from "tangible" to "text" to "telephony"
to "terminal".
	I'm thinking "terminal" is probably most applicable here, and
I probably could have figured it out for myself.. never seen it called
that before though. Well, come to think of it I'm not sure what I've seen
it called, so maybe I have and just didn't know it...

	Austin

From mikeraz at patch.com  Mon Nov 14 12:12:08 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:12:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
In-Reply-To: <20051114201056.GE11939@gblx.net>
References: <20051114195117.GD11939@gblx.net>
	<20051114200052.27886.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20051114201056.GE11939@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <51092.170.135.241.45.1131999128.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


<quote who="Austin Schutz">
> Well, come to think of it I'm not sure what I've seen
> it called, so maybe I have and just didn't know it...

Are you sure you're not sure?  Hint: you type Commands in a Line

-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 15:40:42 2005
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:40:42 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] any one know of an editor that allows for embeded perl?
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>

Ok I've been beating my head on this one. Any one know if there is an
editor that embeds perl in to the editor? Kinda like a super fancy
copy/paste/search/replace .... I currently use jEdit and love it...
well for the most part. Heres an example of something that I just got
done doing,  build a nav with every image in a dir nav_cat* files are
categorys and nav_*_* are links

ls -lh *.gif > list

[open list in jEdit]
using regex find s/^.*14:(49|50)//

[copy trim list to new buffer]
my @imglist = ( ** list here ** );

my $cat=q{};
foreach (@imglist) {
    if(m/^nav_cat/) {
        ($cat)= $_ =~  m/nav_cat_(.*?).gif/;
        print "<tr><th><img src='$_' alt='$cat'></th></tr>\n";
    }
    else{
        my ($alt)= $_ =~ m/nav_.*?_(.*?).gif/;
            print "<img src='$_' alt='A link to $alt $cat'></a>\n";
    }
}


[save that off and run script in term... copy output]
[open new buffer in jEdit ... paste]

take a seperate list of the actual links that have the category id's
and link them up by hand...

and tada... final table of links.... total time about 15 minutes, much
faster then doing it all long hand like most of the production folks
but ... it got me thinking... why am I bouncing back and forth and
side steping STD(IN|OUT) ... what I would love to see is an editor
that could fork a background process as a perlscript and plug in
STDOUT in to the buffer... almost like bluring the lines between
terminal and editor? Is that possible... well I'm sure that any emacs
guru would yell at me because emacs is the answer to everything... any
takers on this one?

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Nov 14 15:59:09 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 14 Nov 2005 15:59:09 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] any one know of an editor that allows for embeded perl?
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86psp2vl0y.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "benh" == benh  <ben.hengst at gmail.com> writes:

benh> Ok I've been beating my head on this one. Any one know if there is an
benh> editor that embeds perl in to the editor? Kinda like a super fancy
benh> copy/paste/search/replace .... I currently use jEdit and love it...

Both vim and GNU Emacs can embed Perl.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From randall at sonofhans.net  Mon Nov 14 17:08:31 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:08:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] any one know of an editor that allows for embeded perl?
In-Reply-To: <86psp2vl0y.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
	<86psp2vl0y.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <5EC7E54A-2722-4E0F-8975-5B152AC668DC@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 14, 2005, at 3:59 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> Both vim and GNU Emacs can embed Perl.

yeah, but only one of those is a text editor. :)

r


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Nov 14 17:51:39 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 14 Nov 2005 17:51:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] any one know of an editor that allows for embeded perl?
In-Reply-To: <5EC7E54A-2722-4E0F-8975-5B152AC668DC@sonofhans.net>
References: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
	<86psp2vl0y.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5EC7E54A-2722-4E0F-8975-5B152AC668DC@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <86acg6vftg.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Randall" == Randall Hansen <randall at sonofhans.net> writes:

Randall> On Nov 14, 2005, at 3:59 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> Both vim and GNU Emacs can embed Perl.

Randall> yeah, but only one of those is a text editor. :)

I hear you can write a text editor in Emacs Lisp... I'm going to have
to try that some day. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Nov 15 10:47:44 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:47:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, November 10
Message-ID: <20051115184744.GD18197@joshheumann.com>

Here's the list of new books available for review.  The rest of the
newsletter follows.  Let me know if you want to review one of these
books, and I'll get you a copy.  You know the drill.

J

Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-The DAM Book: Digital Asset Management for Photographers
-Greasemonkey Hacks
-Mac OS X Tiger in a Nutshell
-Windows XP for Starters: The Missing Manual
-C++ Cookbook
-Integrating Excel and Access
-Just Say No To Microsoft
-Excel for Starters: The Missing Manual
-Photoshop Elements 4: The Missing Manual
-Creating Web Sites: The Missing Manual
-Oracle PL/SQL for DBAs
-Access 2003 for Starters: The Missing Manual
-Photoshop Photo Effects Cookbook
-Unix in a Nutshell, Fourth Edition
-Programming ASP.NET, Third Edition
-Palm and Treo Hacks
-Photoshop Filter Effects Encyclopedia
-Photoshop Blending Modes Cookbook for Digital Photographers

----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----

From: Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com>
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, November 10
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:41:39 -0800

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----------------------------------------------------------------
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================================================================
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November 10, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-The DAM Book: Digital Asset Management for Photographers
-Greasemonkey Hacks
-Mac OS X Tiger in a Nutshell
-Windows XP for Starters: The Missing Manual
-C++ Cookbook
-Integrating Excel and Access
-Just Say No To Microsoft
-Excel for Starters: The Missing Manual
-Photoshop Elements 4: The Missing Manual
-Creating Web Sites: The Missing Manual
-Oracle PL/SQL for DBAs
-Access 2003 for Starters: The Missing Manual
-Photoshop Photo Effects Cookbook
-Unix in a Nutshell, Fourth Edition
-Programming ASP.NET, Third Edition
-Palm and Treo Hacks
-Photoshop Filter Effects Encyclopedia
-Photoshop Blending Modes Cookbook for Digital Photographers
----------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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-Avoiding Oblivion in Your Tech Career
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-MacVoices Features Leander Kahney "The Cult of iPod"
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***The DAM Book: Digital Asset Management for Photographers
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100183
In the world of digital photography, Digital Asset Management (DAM)
refers to every part of the process that follows the taking of the
picture, through final output and permanent storage. Anyone who shoots,
scans, or stores digital photographs is practicing some form of DAM, but
most of us are not doing so systematically or efficiently. In "The DAM
Book: Digital Asset Management for Photographers," photographer Peter
Krogh presents a solid plan and practical advice on how to file, find,
protect, and re-use photographs, focusing on best practices for digital
photographers using Adobe Photoshop CS2. 
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dambk/>


***Greasemonkey Hacks 
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101651
Greasemonkey--the new Firefox extension that allows you to write scripts
that alter the web pages you visit--allows you to alter site appearance,
fix bugs, or even combine data from different web sites to meet your own
needs. Some people are content to receive information from web sites
passively; some people want to control it. For those who prefer to
customize and control their content, "Greasemonkey Hacks" provides the
expertise you need to take command of any web page you view.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/greasemonkeyhks/>


***Mac OS X Tiger in a Nutshell
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0-596-00943-7
For consumers, developers, and programmers alike, the up-to-the-minute
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***C++ Cookbook
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ISBN: 0596007612
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***Integrating Excel and Access
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009739
This unique reference shows you how to combine the powerful analysis
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Access. It covers everything you need to know, including interfaces,
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***Just Say No To Microsoft 
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ISBN: 159327064X
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Includes full explanations of alternate operating systems, such as Linux
and Mac, and outlines various software applications that can replace the
familiar Microsoft products.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/159327064X/index.html>


***Excel for Starters: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101546
"Excel for Starters: The Missing Manual" gives you the information you
need to make Excel do exactly what you want. Clear explanations (with
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instructions guide you through the most useful features of Excel 2002
and 2003--including how to build spreadsheets, add and format
information, print reports, create charts and graphics, and use basic
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/excelfstmm/>

Chapter 2, "Adding Information to Worksheets," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/excelfstmm/chapter/index.html>


***Photoshop Elements 4: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101589 
With "Photoshop Elements 4: The Missing Manual," author Barbara Brundage
has written the perfect digital photography guide that covers new
features and techniques--for the most common editing solutions to the
more advanced. In a clear, easy-to-read format, the author provides
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***Creating Web Sites: The Missing Manual
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ISBN: 0596008422
Think you have to be a technical wizard to build a great web site? Think
again. For anyone who wants to create an engaging web site--for either
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demystifies the process and provides tools, techniques, and expert
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and reliable web presence.
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Chapter 6, "Style Sheets," is available online:
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***Oracle PL/SQL for DBAs
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596005873
PL/SQL, Oracle's powerful procedural language, has been the cornerstone
of Oracle application development for nearly 15 years. Although
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/oracleplsqldba/>


***Access 2003 for Starters: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596006659
"Access 2003 for Starters: The Missing Manual" delivers everything you
need to use Access right away. The quick and painless way to learn how
to put the world's most popular desktop data management program to work
for you, this book explains all the most useful features of Access
2003--including designing and creating databases, organizing and
filtering information, and generating effective forms and reports.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/accesstmm/>


***Photoshop Photo Effects Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100221
You don't have to be a Photoshop expert to create sophisticated effects.
With 61 easy-to-follow recipes, "Photoshop Photo Effects Cookbook" shows
you how to use Photoshop CS2 to simulate classic camera and darkroom
techniques and special effects-without making you learn Photoshop
inside and out first. This book is packed with hundreds of full-color 
photographs, step-by-step instructions, and many practical tips.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/photophotofx/>


***Unix in a Nutshell, Fourth Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100299
This quick reference has been reworked to present you with the current
state of Unix. Featuring chapter overviews, in-depth command coverage,
and specific examples, it's the perfect supplement for Unix users and
programmers. New topics include package management programs, source code
management systems, and the Solaris 10, GNU/Linux, and Mac OS X systems.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/unixnut4/>

Chapter 16, "The GNU make Utility," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/unixnut4/chapter/index.html>


***Programming ASP.NET, Third Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059600916X
This updated bestseller has been completely refreshed to give you the
inside story on ASP.NET 2.0 and Visual Studio 2005. It features a
comprehensive tutorial on Web Forms and detailed explanations of all new
Web server, HTML, and custom controls. Ideal for web developers looking
to create dynamic, interactive web applications.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progaspdotnet3/>


***Palm and Treo Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610054X
Written for beginning to experienced Palm users, "Palm and Treo Hacks"
is full of practical, ingenious tips and tricks you can apply
immediately. Whether you're looking to master the built-in applications
or you want to trick out your Palm to its fullest extent, this book will
show you how.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/palmtreohks/>

Sample Hacks such as "Get the Most Out of the To Do List" and 
"Use Your Treo as a Modem," are available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/palmtreohks/chapter/index.html>


***Photoshop Filter Effects Encyclopedia
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100213
"Photoshop Filter Effects Encyclopedia" explains and decodes the
settings of every filter that Photoshop CS2 has to offer. And, unlike
many reference books, it is filled with easy-to-follow, step-by-step
recipes for creating truly amazing effects using Photoshop filters.
Packed with hundreds of full-color photographs, clearly written
instructions, and practical tips, this book is the ultimate, no-nonsense
Photoshop CS2 Filters reference for creative photographers, designers,
and artists.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/photofilterfx/>


***Photoshop Blending Modes Cookbook for Digital Photographers
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100205
Layer blending modes have been part of Photoshop for years, but they're
not easy to understand at first glance. With clear, step-by-step
instructions, an easy-to-follow format, and hundreds of full-color
examples, "Photoshop Blending Modes Cookbook for Digital Photographers"
shows you how to use blending modes to achieve a wide range of image
adjustments and special effects-without first having to learn everything
there is to know about Photoshop.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/photoblend/>

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<http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/etel2006/create/ord_etel06>


***EuroOSCON has come and gone in Amsterdam
It was a great experience and attendee comments ranged from "wonderful"
to "I'll be back again next year!" OSCON will definitely be back in
Europe next fall, as well as in Portland in July. Check out the
Convention Coverage Page for all the latest session files pictures 
and news.
<http://conferences.oreillynet.com/eurooscon/coverage/>

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***The Impact of "Ambient Findability"
Peter Morville, author of "Ambient Findability," discusses the results
of being able to find anything from anywhere at anytime, thanks to
ubiquitous computing and the Net in this Business Week article.
<http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/nov2005/id20051109_002975.htm>


***Laughing Lemur Contest at Findability.org
To enter, snap a photo that includes the lemur, upload it to Flickr, and
tag it with ambientfindability. Entries will be accepted through
December 11, 2005. Evaluation criteria include popularity (in Flickr,
Google, de.licio.us), comicality (make the lemur laugh), and other
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copies of the lemur and polar bear books. For contest details and 
rules, please go to:
<http://www.findability.org/archives/000067.php>


***Avoiding Oblivion in Your Tech Career 
Life moves quickly for the technologist, so it's imperative to stay
young and vital in one's tech career. Using the analogy of Shakespeare's
renowned soliloquy from As You Like It on the seven phases of life,
Michael Havey offers tips on how you can sustain technology excellence
well into your golden years. Michael is the author of "Essential Business
Process Modeling."
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/10/31/avoiding-oblivion-in-tech-career.html>


***Control Freaks: Modding and the Clash with Law 
Modders, and the millions more who possess a natural creativity and an
urge to get control over their lives, have, as Andy Oram puts it,
"tumbled head-on into a legal snake pit." Their passion for changing
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US, and thus has drawn the litigious eye of large entertainment and
media companies. Andy remains optimistic, however, that modders
themselves can find ways to shift the focus away from modding as a legal
issue, and toward a view of modding as a social and business issue.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/10/28/modding-and-the-clash-with-law.html>


***User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
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As an O'Reilly User Group member, you save on all the courses in the
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---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***MySQL 5.0 is Released
Kevin Yank goes over the new release of MySQL, the ever popular
open-source database software, and what new features it contains.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/10/24/mysql-50-stable-release/>


***What Is TurboGears? (Hint: Python-Based Framework for Rapid Web
Development) 
TurboGears is a Python-based framework that enables you to quickly build
database-driven, ready-to-extend web applications. In this article,
Matthew Russell takes you inside this framework for a look at its
internal mechanisms, then introduces you to its creator, Kevin Dangoor.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/11/08/turbogears.html>


***What Is a Linux Distribution?
The Linux kernel may be the star of the show, but like any star, it
needs a supporting cast. In this case, the supporting cast is known as a
Linux distribution--a useful set of system and application programs
bundled with the OS. Edd Dumbill serves up overviews of the major Linux
distributions as well as the specialist distros, and for who (or what)
each distro is best suited.
<http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/10/27/what-is-a-linux-distribution.html>

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***Sync Services Framework (How It Works and What You Can Do) 
With Tiger, Apple introduced a new extensible Sync Services framework
embedded into the OS. And it's available to any application, not just
Apple programs. Mary Norbury-Glaser explains this framework and shows
you practical examples of its implementation.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/11/04/sync-services.html>


***Tiger's Improved Firewall (and How to Use It) 
Among Tiger's many enhancements, Apple introduced a whole new firewall
called ipfw2. It works just the like the old firewall, but has new
features that allow greater flexibility and more control. In this
article, Peter Hickman shows you some of the new features and how you
can use them to more easily manage your firewall.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/11/01/firewall.html>

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Windows Server Hacks: Shadowing Remote Desktop Sessions 
Shadowing Terminal Services sessions is a cool feature of Windows Server
2003 that lets you remotely control the desktop session of another
Terminal Services user. 
<http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/11/08/shadowing-remote-desktop-sessions.html>


***Beware of Network Sniffers 
Network sniffing is harder than most people think, but that doesn't mean
it's not a threat. Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows Server Hacks,"
tells you the truth about sniffing dangers, and shows you how to protect
your network.
<http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/11/01/beware-of-network-sniffers.html>

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***JBoss Cache as a POJO Cache 
Typical in-memory cache systems can trip you up in ways you don't
expect, from mangled object relationships to overly expensive
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<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/11/09/jboss-pojo-cache.html>


***Take Command With AJAX
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<http://www.sitepoint.com/article/take-command-ajax>


***The Community of Web 2.0 
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source.
<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/11/02/community-of-web-20.html>

---------------------
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---------------------
***MacVoices Features Leander Kahney "The Cult of iPod"
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<http://www.macvoices.com/archives/2005/507.html>


***Vince Lawrence: 8,000 Square Feet of iTunes
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---------------------
MAKE
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***The PEZ MP3 player--A Project, Dream, and a Reality 
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dream-turned-PEZ MP3 player.
<http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/10/the_pez_mp3_player_is_here.html>

Sample Projects from MAKE:
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***Give the Gift of MAKE Magazine--Special Offer for UG Members
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----- End forwarded message -----

From ben.prew at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 23:13:05 2005
From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:13:05 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] any one know of an editor that allows for embeded perl?
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511141540x440d6e1bx6db2133c36bf0581@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24f4b2e80511162313hfc6332cub748453d142f7ec@mail.gmail.com>

Rather then just blather on about the theoretical uses of some theoretical
text editor, there's an article on how to customize emacs in perl:

http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/03/31/lightning2.html

Also, I would recommend looking up narrowing and widening in the emacs elisp
tutorial:

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro/html_node/Narrowing---Widening.html

And, the elisp reference has information on "the region", which is the text
between the point and the mark... or, the currently selected text:

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp-manual/html_chapter/elisp_31.html#SEC492

Ultimately, just about anything you can do in Perl can probably be done
better in elisp... except for expressing a regular expression, its very
similar to Python or Java :(. See Ahh, the Regexes for what I'm talking
about:

http://obsidianrook.com/devnotes/whinery/elisp-regexps.html

And, along that same vein, if you're thinking about learning elisp, here's a
translation of common perl idioms to elisp:

http://obsidianrook.com/devnotes/elisp-for-perl-programmers.html

I don't know how well they map to good "lisp-style", but they appear to be
pretty good.

Finally, I must say that even though I prefer emacs, Vim can be compiled
with Perl support built-in, so you can use it directly in your vim scripts,
and don't have to shell out to Perl.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with that, so you'll have to ask
someone else about it :).

On 11/14/05, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok I've been beating my head on this one. Any one know if there is an
> editor that embeds perl in to the editor? Kinda like a super fancy
> copy/paste/search/replace .... I currently use jEdit and love it...
> well for the most part. Heres an example of something that I just got
> done doing, build a nav with every image in a dir nav_cat* files are
> categorys and nav_*_* are links
>
> ls -lh *.gif > list
>
> [open list in jEdit]
> using regex find s/^.*14:(49|50)//
>
> [copy trim list to new buffer]
> my @imglist = ( ** list here ** );
>
> my $cat=q{};
> foreach (@imglist) {
> if(m/^nav_cat/) {
> ($cat)= $_ =~ m/nav_cat_(.*?).gif/;
> print "<tr><th><img src='$_' alt='$cat'></th></tr>\n";
> }
> else{
> my ($alt)= $_ =~ m/nav_.*?_(.*?).gif/;
> print "<img src='$_' alt='A link to $alt $cat'></a>\n";
> }
> }
>
>
> [save that off and run script in term... copy output]
> [open new buffer in jEdit ... paste]
>
> take a seperate list of the actual links that have the category id's
> and link them up by hand...
>
> and tada... final table of links.... total time about 15 minutes, much
> faster then doing it all long hand like most of the production folks
> but ... it got me thinking... why am I bouncing back and forth and
> side steping STD(IN|OUT) ... what I would love to see is an editor
> that could fork a background process as a perlscript and plug in
> STDOUT in to the buffer... almost like bluring the lines between
> terminal and editor? Is that possible... well I'm sure that any emacs
> guru would yell at me because emacs is the answer to everything... any
> takers on this one?
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



--
Ben Prew
ben.prew at gmail.com
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From ben.prew at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 23:15:37 2005
From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:15:37 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Scripting/testing ncurses interface with perl-expect
In-Reply-To: <51092.170.135.241.45.1131999128.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <20051114195117.GD11939@gblx.net>
	<20051114200052.27886.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20051114201056.GE11939@gblx.net>
	<51092.170.135.241.45.1131999128.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <24f4b2e80511162315m11b7dd4cjf0ec7daa5968dea3@mail.gmail.com>

I always thought it meant "Text UI", but I stole it from some of Redhat's
tool's names, rather then having a deep and complete understanding of Unix
:)

On 11/14/05, Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com> wrote:
>
>
> <quote who="Austin Schutz">
> > Well, come to think of it I'm not sure what I've seen
> > it called, so maybe I have and just didn't know it...
>
> Are you sure you're not sure? Hint: you type Commands in a Line
>
> --
> Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
> Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
> http://www.patch.com/words/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



--
Ben Prew
ben.prew at gmail.com
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From rootbeer at redcat.com  Thu Nov 17 09:49:49 2005
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:49:49 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] =?windows-1252?q?Day_After_Thanksgiving_Game_Night_at_To?=
	=?windows-1252?q?m_and_Jenna=92s?=
Message-ID: <31086b240511170949k15824154r961f9e74561f35ec@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jenna Padbury <jennapadbury at redcat.com>




Happy not raining...do I really live in Oregon...Fall,



You and anybody you want to invite are warmly invited to a Post
Thanksgiving Game Night at Tom and Jenna's.



It is also (in Jenna's opinion) a matter of historical importance to
note that exactly one year ago this very holiday weekend Tom asked
Jenna to join him in marriage. This game night will culminate a year
of celebrating with family and friends.  Yippy!



When: Friday the 25th.
The fun starts at 4 PM and we'll wrap up by 9:00 PM  Feel free to drop
in as your schedule allows.

Where: 6815 N Interstate Ave.(we're in the blue house less than a
block north of Dekum on the southbound side of the street)

Transit: Max Yellow Line's Portland Boulevard stop is nearest;



Freeway: From I-5, exit and turn west onto Portland Boulevard to find
our neighborhood.

Parking: free and easy to find on any nearby side street a block or
two off of Interstate Avenue.

Food and drink: We'll have some soda and vegetarian chili and 12 bean
soup. We hope you'll a snack or drink or anything else you'd like to
eat. Sharing the bounty of your Thanksgiving leftovers is welcome?but
only if you promise to bring any extra home with you! J


Games: We'll have Zendo, of course. In case you somehow don't like
Zendo, we'll have some other games (Spin-the-Bottle, Hopscotch, Tiddly
Winks, Bunko, Bingo,... we'll find something). And of course, you are
always welcome to bring your favorite game.


This is a youngster friendly event, so if you have some or know some
feel free to bring them



RSVP: Not necessary but helpful as I determine just how many gallons
of Chili and soup to make
Peace,
Jenna

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 12:55:07 2005
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:55:07 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Any one know if there going to apache con 05?
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0511181255i36816b40ud7090aecf38dae5f@mail.gmail.com>

Still debating if I want to make the Treck south or not.

http://www.apachecon.com/
benh~

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 18 12:56:56 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:56:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
Message-ID: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi folks,

I've posted an informal poll about "traits" in my use.perl journal
(http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/27644).  It would be nice if some
folks would be willing to discuss it over there, but for those who
prefer "on list" discussion:

Question:  why aren't you using traits?

    [ ] I don't understand traits.
    [ ] I've never heard of traits.
    [ ] I prefer multiple inheritance or mixins.
    [ ] Single inheritance is good enough for me.
    [ ] I don't know of a robust/good Perl implementation.
    [ ] Traits are bad, m'kay.
    [ ] Other _______________.

Would you be interested in learning more about traits or do you think
they're just another silly buzzword? If you are interested in traits,
what would it take to get you to start using them?

One thing I've noticed about traits is that most discussions of traits
seem to revolve around examples which don't really match up with what
people need in the real world. This, curiously, is the same problem
that many beginning OO examples have. As a result, people learn about
OO and often say "why bother?" I think the same problem affects traits
despite how useful they are.

Traits are explained in
http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Archive/PhD/schaerli-phd.pdf and in Perl 6
they are known as "roles".

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From ben.prew at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 14:58:00 2005
From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:58:00 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll: traits
In-Reply-To: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <24f4b2e80511181458w26c07db0mb9cf69316e43f5c7@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I don't have a use.perl account, but you can mark me as:

[ ] I don't know of a robust/good Perl implementation.

Where the emphasis is on don't know of any implementations, rather then
knowing about non-robust/non-good implementations.


On 11/18/05, Ovid <publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I've posted an informal poll about "traits" in my use.perl journal
> (http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/27644). It would be nice if some
> folks would be willing to discuss it over there, but for those who
> prefer "on list" discussion:
>
> Question: why aren't you using traits?
>
> [ ] I don't understand traits.
> [ ] I've never heard of traits.
> [ ] I prefer multiple inheritance or mixins.
> [ ] Single inheritance is good enough for me.
> [ ] I don't know of a robust/good Perl implementation.
> [ ] Traits are bad, m'kay.
> [ ] Other _______________.
>
> Would you be interested in learning more about traits or do you think
> they're just another silly buzzword? If you are interested in traits,
> what would it take to get you to start using them?
>
> One thing I've noticed about traits is that most discussions of traits
> seem to revolve around examples which don't really match up with what
> people need in the real world. This, curiously, is the same problem
> that many beginning OO examples have. As a result, people learn about
> OO and often say "why bother?" I think the same problem affects traits
> despite how useful they are.
>
> Traits are explained in
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Archive/PhD/schaerli-phd.pdf and in Perl 6
> they are known as "roles".
>
> Cheers,
> Ovid
>
> --
> If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
> follow up questions to the list.
>
> Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



--
Ben Prew
ben.prew at gmail.com
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From david at kineticode.com  Fri Nov 18 15:46:16 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:46:16 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AB770B00-3831-45AD-9982-B1139EDE4430@kineticode.com>

On Nov 18, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Ovid wrote:

> Question:  why aren't you using traits?
>
>     [ ] I don't understand traits.
>     [ ] I've never heard of traits.
>     [ ] I prefer multiple inheritance or mixins.
>     [ ] Single inheritance is good enough for me.
>     [ ] I don't know of a robust/good Perl implementation.
>     [ ] Traits are bad, m'kay.
>     [ ] Other _______________.

    [X] But I *do* use traits, whatsamattau?

:-)

D

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Fri Nov 18 16:52:10 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:52:10 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8F716B96-1511-4629-B24E-20FDD83EAD6E@ohsu.edu>

>     [X] I've never heard of traits.

But I know how a solid phase oligonucleotide synthesizer works.

Tom

PS. Have a nice weekend.

On Nov 18, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Ovid wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I've posted an informal poll about "traits" in my use.perl journal
> (http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/27644).  It would be nice if some
> folks would be willing to discuss it over there, but for those who
> prefer "on list" discussion:
>
> Question:  why aren't you using traits?
>
>     [ ] I don't understand traits.
>     [X] I've never heard of traits.
>     [ ] I prefer multiple inheritance or mixins.
>     [ ] Single inheritance is good enough for me.
>     [ ] I don't know of a robust/good Perl implementation.
>     [ ] Traits are bad, m'kay.
>     [ ] Other _______________.
>
> Would you be interested in learning more about traits or do you think
> they're just another silly buzzword? If you are interested in traits,
> what would it take to get you to start using them?
>
> One thing I've noticed about traits is that most discussions of traits
> seem to revolve around examples which don't really match up with what
> people need in the real world. This, curiously, is the same problem
> that many beginning OO examples have. As a result, people learn about
> OO and often say "why bother?" I think the same problem affects traits
> despite how useful they are.
>
> Traits are explained in
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Archive/PhD/schaerli-phd.pdf and in  
> Perl 6
> they are known as "roles".
>
> Cheers,
> Ovid
>
> -- 
> If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list,  
> please send
> follow up questions to the list.
>
> Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/ 
> cgi_course/
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 18 17:07:34 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:07:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <8F716B96-1511-4629-B24E-20FDD83EAD6E@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20051119010734.42872.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> wrote:

> >     [X] I've never heard of traits.
> 
> But I know how a solid phase oligonucleotide synthesizer works.

Tom wins.  Everybody go home.

Cheers,
Otis <-- long story.  Don't ask.

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 10:54:09 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:54:09 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Ovid
# on Friday 18 November 2005 12:56 pm:

? ? [X] Other _I'm still waiting for someone to explain them in less 
than 100+ pages of text_.

Looks like he managed to get it out in 25 at some point (with the help 
of a few others.)

  http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi/abstract=yes?Scha03a

What I love about perl's oo is that we really don't need all of the 
formalisms that appear in other languages.  What I hate about it is 
that I don't understand the jargon that appears when people start 
talking about languages with less casual OO constructs.

"A trait is essentially a group of pure methods that serves as a 
building block for classes and is a primitive unit of code reuse."

So, can you spell that in Perl?  It sounds suspiciously like it's 
nothing more than a module that allows you to import some methods into 
your namespace.  Or is that a mixin?

--Eric
-- 
Peer's Law: The solution to the problem changes the problem.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 11:17:11 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:17:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi/abstract=yes?Scha03a
> 
> What I love about perl's oo is that we really don't need all of the 
> formalisms that appear in other languages.

Yes and no.  There's no question that Perl's model is extremely
flexible, but sometimes you want to break instead of bend.  The
problems with multiple inheritance are extremely well-known and
well-docuemanted.   Ruby-style mixins and Java interfaces are two
attempts to avoid this (note that both languages only support single
inheritance) but both of these are also broken.  Mixins have ordering
problems and interfaces force you to redefine the implementation every
time -- even if the implementation doesn't change.

> "A trait is essentially a group of pure methods that serves as a 
> building block for classes and is a primitive unit of code reuse."
> 
> So, can you spell that in Perl?  It sounds suspiciously like 
> it's nothing more than a module that allows you to import
> some methods into your namespace.  Or is that a mixin?

That's the basics of it (traits are actually really simple to use. 
It's the theory behind traits which throws a few people off).

Traits, however, are far more powerful than mixins.  Imagine, for
example, that you have two traits:  TSpouse and TBomb.  Each of those
traits provides two methods, fuse() and explode().  You want to
institute a "FamilyMember" class and use those traits.  Naturally, you
want to use the TSpouse::explode() method because it's non-lethal
(usually).  You want to use the TBomb::fuse() method because you can
control the timing.

If these were mixins, you have a problem.  With Ruby, you would get the
fuse() and explode() methods from whichever of these mixins you used
*last*.  If you want one from each, you have to use delegation or
something similar.

With traits, if there are method conflicts, the traits fail *at compile
time* and you have to explicitly resolve the problem:

  package FamilyMember;
  use Class::Trait
    TSpouse => { exclude => ['fuse'] },
    TBomb   => { exclude => ['explode'] };

And now FamilyMember->can('explode') (from TSpouse) and
FamilyMember->can('fuse') (from TBomb).

However, if the TSpouse and TBomb traits had no conflicts, it would be
as simple as this:

  use Class::Trait qw(TSpouse TBomb);

And you've have everything you need.

In a nutshell, the reasoning behind traits is simple.  A class needs to
provide *everything* you should be able to do with that class.  Thus,
it needs to be complete.  However, if think of classes for code reuse
benefits (for example, when we inherit from classes), then they should
be as small as possible so we don't accidentally pull in more stuff
than we want or need.

So classes should generally be both complete and small, but these needs
often conflict.  Since traits are both small and provide code reuse,
they satisfy both requirements.  Further, unlike Java interfaces, they
provide the implementation so you don't have to keep rewriting it. 
Like Java interfaces, they fail *at compile time* if you've not used
them correctly.  Unlike Ruby mixins, they don't have ordering problems.

I'm still working on Class::Trait and doing some deep internals work
with it, but the basic features are there.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Nov 19 11:22:41 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:22:41 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20051118205656.1551.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
	<200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <1132428161.6720.83.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 10:54 -0800, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> "A trait is essentially a group of pure methods that serves as a 
> building block for classes and is a primitive unit of code reuse."
> 
> So, can you spell that in Perl?  It sounds suspiciously like it's 
> nothing more than a module that allows you to import some methods into 
> your namespace.  Or is that a mixin?

It's a lot more than a mixin.  It's an abstraction that gives a
semantically useful name to a group of methods.

Occasionally people show up in Perl QA to ask "I have these functions
that print their output and I want to collect that output instead!"  The
answer is somewhere between select(), tie(), and IO::Handle or another
module.  You really have to know what you're doing to make it work.

You also could define a trait for an appendable collection of lines.
That might represent a file (you can print to it) or an array (same) or
a log (if it expires the oldest content) or a cache (the same).

If every place you want to append a line to something you check that
what you're going to use does that trait -- instead of being a
filehandle or an array or however it implements that trait -- you get a
lot more flexibility.  In particular, you're checking for the
appropriate *intended behavior* of an object, not its implementation.

Likewise you could have a KeyedLookup trait for a hash or a cache or a
remote object storage system or whatever.

The important thing is the name of the collection of methods.  You can't
just check that the object you have has a method of the right name --
there are too many homonyms possible for that to work reliably.  It's
the collection of methods under a trait name that makes this useful.

-- c


From krisb at ring.org  Sat Nov 19 11:47:17 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:47:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511191141230.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> What I love about perl's oo is that we really don't need all of the
> formalisms that appear in other languages.  What I hate about it is
> that I don't understand the jargon that appears when people start
> talking about languages with less casual OO constructs.
>
> "A trait is essentially a group of pure methods that serves as a
> building block for classes and is a primitive unit of code reuse."

I would like to see a comparison chart between different things, and maybe
why people get all hot about them:

trait
role
mixin
aspect
interface
duck typing
"traditional" OO

For example, when you say "pure methods" does that mean no implementations
or no member variables?  Is it stateless or abstract?

I would also like to see some code examples that work with one and not
with another.

I think part of the problem is that this OO stuff is trying to impose
order on Complex Systems, so you don't really see the impact until you
realize you have to refactor your million-line application and you wish
you had this OO feature or that.  Tight OO systems restrict your options,
so you better use the right one in the first place.  Loose OO systems
(like perl) mean that you don't get built in consistency, so it is hard to
make something you can 'pivot' later.

-Kris


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 12:12:27 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:12:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200511191212.27462.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Ovid
# on Saturday 19 November 2005 11:17 am:

>? package FamilyMember;
>? use Class::Trait
>? ? TSpouse => { exclude => ['fuse'] },
>? ? TBomb ? => { exclude => ['explode'] };
>
>And now FamilyMember->can('explode') (from TSpouse) and
>FamilyMember->can('fuse') (from TBomb).

So, in this case, it's the same as

  use TSpouse qw(explode);
  use TBomb qw(fuse);

Right?

Of course, that assumes that these methods are at least in @EXPORT_OK, 
and it looks like you've done something handier than that with 
Class::Trait (besides, most people wouldn't think to export method 
names, would they?)

Now I can change my answer to "of course I use them", but iirc, I've 
only ever done it with the (not so meticulous) do("traitfile") :-)

So, I can see some benefits here, particularly in the collision 
detection, exclusion or inclusion, etc.  I just wish you had presented 
it that way instead of with a link to a 143 page paper, where most of 
the discussion centers around the fact that he's dealing with a 
language where pragmatic code reuse is hindered by an overly formalized 
OO system.

--Eric
-- 
hobgoblin n 1: (folklore) a small grotesque supernatural creature that
          makes trouble for human beings
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From marvin at rectangular.com  Sat Nov 19 12:18:07 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:18:07 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>


On Nov 19, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Ovid wrote:

>   package FamilyMember;
>   use Class::Trait
>     TSpouse => { exclude => ['fuse'] },
>     TBomb   => { exclude => ['explode'] };
>
> And now FamilyMember->can('explode') (from TSpouse) and
> FamilyMember->can('fuse') (from TBomb).

So... without Class::Trait, you can get superficially similar  
behavior if Bomb exports 'fuse' and you start off FamilyMember like  
this:

     package FamilyMember;
     use base qw( Spouse );
     use Bomb qw( fuse );  # override the fuse() in Spouse

But you'd have to know that there was a conflict there before you  
could resolve it.  The advantage of Class::Trait is that you don't  
have to keep so many things in your head at one time when designing  
classes with multiple inheritance.  It will fail catastrophically  
when there are conflicts rather than silently do the wrong thing  
every once in a while.

    package FamilyMember;
    use base qw( Bomb Spouse );  # not good

Would it be fair to describe a Trait as a base class that doesn't  
allow its methods to be overridden without an explicit directive?

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Nov 19 12:27:39 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:27:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>
References: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
	<B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <1132432059.6720.89.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 12:18 -0800, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> Would it be fair to describe a Trait as a base class that doesn't  
> allow its methods to be overridden without an explicit directive?

I hope not.  You shouldn't have to inherit from a trait to perform that
trait.  (You should have to declare that you intent to perform that
trait, but that's a different story.)

-- c


From marvin at rectangular.com  Sat Nov 19 12:40:39 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:40:39 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <1132432059.6720.89.camel@localhost>
References: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
	<B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>
	<1132432059.6720.89.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <B0C9A727-9183-45BC-90B2-1A5BB9AD910E@rectangular.com>


On Nov 19, 2005, at 12:27 PM, chromatic wrote:

> You shouldn't have to inherit from a trait to perform that
> trait.  (You should have to declare that you intent to perform that
> trait, but that's a different story.)

That sounds like a Java interface.  Ovid indicated that you could  
define the default behavior of a Trait -- unlike interfaces.  Is  
defining a Trait's default behavior mandatory or optional?

Even if it's mandatory you can define it to throw an exception, I  
suppose.

     sub explode { confess "explode must defined in a subclass" }

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 12:45:57 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:45:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <200511191212.27462.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051119204557.58939.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:

> >??? package FamilyMember;
> >??? use Class::Trait
> >??? ??? TSpouse => { exclude => ['fuse'] },
> >??? ??? TBomb ??? => { exclude => ['explode'] };
> >
> >And now FamilyMember->can('explode') (from TSpouse) and
> >FamilyMember->can('fuse') (from TBomb).
> 
> So, in this case, it's the same as
> 
>   use TSpouse qw(explode);
>   use TBomb qw(fuse);
> 
> Right?

Almost.  In fact, in many cases it is.  However, in this case, let's
imagine that the TBomb::fuse() method is defined like this:

  sub fuse {
    my ($self, $time) = @_;
    $self->set_igniter($time);
    $self->explode;
  }

Where does the set_igniter() method come from?  It might be provided in
the TBomb trait, but if you want to have a variety of applicable
igniters, you can add this:

  our @REQUIRES = qw(set_igniter);

Now, TBomb does not have to provide its own implementation, but you
can't use it unless *something* provides that.  Again, it fails at
compile time.

This sounds all theoretical and abstract, but we're really using this
in a production system.  We have traits which generate XML and XHTML. 
There's also a "data store" trait.  The data store can provide test
objects and a variety of our test class generate test objects using the
Store trait.  When a test class needs to generate XML, the XML is based
upon objects and the trait has this line:

  our @REQUIRES = qw(test_objects);

(It actually has more than that).

If I forget to use the Store trait but I use the XML trait, the tests
won't compile and I don't have to waste time tracking down potentially
confusing test failures.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 12:47:40 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:47:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20051119204740.59433.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Marvin Humphrey <marvin at rectangular.com> wrote:
> Would it be fair to describe a Trait as a base class that doesn't  
> allow its methods to be overridden without an explicit directive?

Sort of.  However, the methods are actually "flattened" into the class
which uses the traits.  Thus, you're not inheriting the methods.  This
is a nice performance boost.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From tex at off.org  Sat Nov 19 12:48:36 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:48:36 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511191141230.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <200511191054.09927.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0511191141230.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20051119204836.GP7172@gblx.net>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 11:47:17AM -0800, Kris Bosland wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> 
> > What I love about perl's oo is that we really don't need all of the
> > formalisms that appear in other languages.  What I hate about it is
> > that I don't understand the jargon that appears when people start
> > talking about languages with less casual OO constructs.
> >
> > "A trait is essentially a group of pure methods that serves as a
> > building block for classes and is a primitive unit of code reuse."
> 
> I would like to see a comparison chart between different things, and maybe
> why people get all hot about them:
> 
> trait
> role
> mixin
> aspect
> interface
> duck typing

	duck typing sounds a lot like the monty python episode where they're
instructing you how to identify trees from long, long distances away.


	Austin

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 12:50:02 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <B0C9A727-9183-45BC-90B2-1A5BB9AD910E@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20051119205002.75238.qmail@web60821.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Marvin Humphrey <marvin at rectangular.com> wrote:

> That sounds like a Java interface.  Ovid indicated that you could  
> define the default behavior of a Trait -- unlike interfaces.  Is  
> defining a Trait's default behavior mandatory or optional?

Currently defining the trait's behavior is mandatory.  If you don't
like the behavior, exclude the method.

Perl 6's "Roles" will allow you to provide a stub method and then the
role will behave like an interface.  I'm not sure if I will be adding
support for this as the "@REQUIRES" array (described in other emails)
takes care of this need.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

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From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Nov 19 12:57:22 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:57:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <B0C9A727-9183-45BC-90B2-1A5BB9AD910E@rectangular.com>
References: <20051119191711.13757.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
	<B0D79F75-AE09-443E-A193-DBFFB995E18B@rectangular.com>
	<1132432059.6720.89.camel@localhost>
	<B0C9A727-9183-45BC-90B2-1A5BB9AD910E@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <1132433842.6720.100.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 12:40 -0800, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> That sounds like a Java interface.

Gah, I *hate* Java interfaces.  The designers saw a problem and
completely failed to solve it.

The problem is that not all important behavior in a system fits nicely
into a class hierarchy.  To borrow a phrase from aspect-oriented
programming, you sometimes have cross-cutting concerns.  That is, if you
want to serialize an object, you don't necessarily want to have to
inherit from a Serialize class.  In a single-inheritance scheme like
Java supposedly has, there goes your code reuse.  In a closed-class
scheme like Java has also, you can't just stick the appropriate methods
in the Object class either.  Pragmatically, you may not *want* all
classes to have serializeable objects!

Java's "solution" was to allow multiple inheritance without actually
allowing multiple inheritance.  That is, you can inherit from only one
class, but you can "inherit" from multiple interfaces that don't share
the same namespace as classes, don't provide any behavior, and have a
completely different querying mechanism.

If you want to write an object that proxies for another object and be
able to use your type system to check that you're performing the correct
operations on the correct objects, you have to modify the first object's
class to create an interface, modify every piece of code that wants to
perform an operation on objects of that class to check for that
interface instead of the class, and then write the proxy.  Yippee.

Instead, traits allow you to define a bundle of named behavior.  If you
don't implement those methods on your own but perform the trait, you get
the trait's implementations.  Code reuse is good.  If you do implement
those methods on your own but do the trait, you don't get the trait's
implementations, but you do tell the system that everything that wants
to perform an operation on something that performs that trait can safely
use your objects because they do the right thing.

Better (I hope Curtis's code does this, because it's immensely
important), if you have a class, you automatically get a trait with the
same name as that class with the same methods of that class and you can
reimplement everything that class does and say that you do the trait and
then everything that asks trait-like questions about objects of your
class will do the right thing even if they always expected to receive
objects of the other class.

That is, traits and roles let you worry about whether an object does
what you expect it does, not how it does it nor where it fits into an
inheritance hierarchy.

This is as it should be.

-- c


From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 13:22:41 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:22:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <1132433842.6720.100.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20051119212241.99674.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>

--- chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
> Better (I hope Curtis's code does this, because it's immensely
> important), if you have a class, you automatically get a trait
> with the same name as that class with the same methods of that
> class
<snip>

Minor correction:  while I had originally written a "Class::Trait"
module, the current code is actually the work of Stevan Little and I am
merely the maintainer.

Question:  are you saying that if I have this:

  package Foo;

  sub new { bless {} => shift }

  sub name { return "Some name" }

That this should automatically be considered a trait, too?  Currently
to make this is a trait you have to add "use Class::Trait 'base'" to
the package.

There are a number of reasons for this, but the most important is the
internal introspection mechanism involved.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From chromatic at wgz.org  Sat Nov 19 13:29:11 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:29:11 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051119212241.99674.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051119212241.99674.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1132435751.6720.107.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 13:22 -0800, Ovid wrote:

> Question:  are you saying that if I have this:
> 
>   package Foo;
> 
>   sub new { bless {} => shift }
> 
>   sub name { return "Some name" }
> 
> That this should automatically be considered a trait, too?

I certainly think so.

> Currently to make this is a trait you have to add "use Class::Trait
> 'base'" to the package.

> There are a number of reasons for this, but the most important is the
> internal introspection mechanism involved.

Agreed.  It's not such a problem in Perl 6, but Perl 5 doesn't have the
mechanisms that Perl 6 does.

I don't know how far you want to go with this, but perhaps there could
be a way to extract a trait from a package where you can provide a list
of the class's traity methods.

-- c


From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 19 13:38:48 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:38:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <1132435751.6720.107.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20051119213849.4545.qmail@web60816.mail.yahoo.com>

--- chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
> I don't know how far you want to go with this, but perhaps there
> could
> be a way to extract a trait from a package where you can provide a
> list of the class's traity methods.

My intent is to get Class::Trait as close to a "correct" traits
implementation as possible.  Thus, whatever it takes to do this, I want
to do.  However, I do note that in the original traits paper and others
which discuss traits, this "any class is also a trait" mechanism does
not appear to exist.

Right now, you could use Class::Delegator to gain this behavior.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From krisb at ring.org  Sat Nov 19 14:07:55 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:07:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Poll:  traits
In-Reply-To: <20051119204557.58939.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511191358050.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Ovid wrote:

>   sub fuse {
>     my ($self, $time) = @_;
>     $self->set_igniter($time);
>     $self->explode;
>   }
>
> Where does the set_igniter() method come from?  It might be provided in
> the TBomb trait, but if you want to have a variety of applicable
> igniters, you can add this:
>
>   our @REQUIRES = qw(set_igniter);
>
> Now, TBomb does not have to provide its own implementation, but you
> can't use it unless *something* provides that.  Again, it fails at
> compile time.
>

	Hey, something I have been thinking of recently is to try to
figure out some way to create an interface test widget in between two
classes or libraries.  Some kind of mirrored thing that:

1. Tests that the library you use acts like you expect
2. Provides a reciprocal dummy object that can test your library
independantly.

Something like:

package BombInterface;
use TestInterface;
interface("fuse","Boom!");

Then,

BombInterface->testInterface() does:
	ok_defined(my $b = Bomb->new());
	ok($b->fuse(),"Boom!");

and
my $b = BombInterface->stubInterface()
$b->fuse(); #"Boom!"

can be used in the tests of the class using Bomb.

-Kris





From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Mon Nov 21 12:05:20 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:05:20 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] O'Reilly looking for UG Podcasts to Feature Online
Message-ID: <20051121200520.GL26439@joshheumann.com>

Daniel Steinberg has been working on podcasting for O'Reilly and he
called to let me know about two ways in which user group members might
want to get involved. First, if you have your own podcast, let us know
about it and we will link to it and feature your shows from time to time
on our podcasting home page (http://www.oreillynet.com/podcasts). Also,
if you have an interesting speaker coming up, you might want to do an
interview and submit it for inclusion in our magazine show "Distributing
the Future" (http://www.oreillynet.com/future). In any case, if you have
interesting ideas for how you might want to contribute to O'Reilly
podcasting, send Daniel an email at daniel at oreilly.com.

Thanks for your help,

Marsee Henon

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Tue Nov 22 11:05:29 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:05:29 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki error
Message-ID: <17C7B3BA-D3A6-4A64-8783-E5FF64A01AC0@ohsu.edu>

Hi folks,
I'm sure this is something simple I've overlooked. But it's eluding  
me. I installed Kwiki and Bundle::Kwiki, created the kwiki with - 
new,  uncommented the plugins in the plugins file and ran kwiki - 
update on the directory. I also edited the httpd.conf file so it  
executes .cgi files.
But I get this error:
Software error:
[Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No plugin for action 'display'  
at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 34.
  at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Base.pm line 110
	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('[Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No  
plugin for action \'...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/CGI/ 
Carp.pm line 314
	CGI::Carp::realdie('[Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No plugin  
for action \'...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/CGI/Carp.pm  
line 400
	CGI::Carp::die('No plugin for action \'display\'') called at / 
Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 34
	Spoon::Hub::process('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18dfd14)') called at /Library/ 
Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki.pm line 12
	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x1801500)', 'config*.*', '-plugins',  
'plugins') called at /Library/WebServer/Documents/tkwiki/index.cgi  
line 4



Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks,
Tom K.


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From kellert at ohsu.edu  Tue Nov 22 11:18:54 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:18:54 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki error
In-Reply-To: <17C7B3BA-D3A6-4A64-8783-E5FF64A01AC0@ohsu.edu>
References: <17C7B3BA-D3A6-4A64-8783-E5FF64A01AC0@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <2B12B21F-707E-49F6-AEB1-8131AC2E6B04@ohsu.edu>

Nevermind

kwiki -add Kwiki::Display

seems to have done the trick. I don't know why it hadn't loaded in  
the first place; it is a core plugin and "should have been present".

TJK
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:05 AM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Hi folks,
> I'm sure this is something simple I've overlooked. But it's eluding  
> me. I installed Kwiki and Bundle::Kwiki, created the kwiki with - 
> new,  uncommented the plugins in the plugins file and ran kwiki - 
> update on the directory. I also edited the httpd.conf file so it  
> executes .cgi files.
> But I get this error:
> Software error:
> [Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No plugin for action  
> 'display' at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 34.
>  at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Base.pm line 110
> 	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('[Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No  
> plugin for action \'...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/CGI/ 
> Carp.pm line 314
> 	CGI::Carp::realdie('[Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2005] index.cgi: No  
> plugin for action \'...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/CGI/ 
> Carp.pm line 400
> 	CGI::Carp::die('No plugin for action \'display\'') called at / 
> Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 34
> 	Spoon::Hub::process('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18dfd14)') called at / 
> Library/Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki.pm line 12
> 	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x1801500)', 'config*.*', '-plugins',  
> 'plugins') called at /Library/WebServer/Documents/tkwiki/index.cgi  
> line 4
>
>
>
> Can anyone help me with this?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom K.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

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From dpool at hevanet.com  Fri Nov 25 09:13:38 2005
From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:13:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ubuntu's Jeff Waugh at PLUG
Message-ID: <1132938818.7892.62.camel@localhost.localdomain>

FYI the Portland Linux/Unix Group is having a special meeting off of
their usual calendar to present Jeff Waugh:

http://www.news4neighbors.net/article.pl?sid=05/11/25/178245

Ubuntu is an interesting, fairly new distro based off of debian.

d


From kellert at ohsu.edu  Mon Nov 28 11:02:26 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:02:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>

Hi All,
This is probably cheating. Tough, defending Perl against this Python  
snob should get you riled up enough to burn up a few of those T-day  
calories. So help me out here. Any other good arguments for this in  
house discussion? The fellow I got into this with is an Assistant  
Professor  in the Medical Informatics program. I'd like him to get  
over his dislike for Perl.

What occurs to me to say is that if you can't understand someone  
else's perl code, they either didn't intend you to, or they were too  
short-sighted to write it properly. And what I like about Perl is  
that I can do anything with it that needs to be done. (I usually have  
to ask some help from the highly vaunted perl mongers of course.)

Tom

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Aaron Cohen" <cohenaa at ohsu.edu>
> Date: November 28, 2005 10:44:55 AM PST
> To: "Tom Keller" <kellert at ohsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Genomics at OHSU
>
> Tom:
> Challenges are good when they lead to interesting discussions.  
> Here's my two cents.
>
> I can't argue against the fact that Perl is good for one line  
> string manipulations. However, old-fashioned Unix tools such as sed  
> do the same thing.
> Python isn't geared towards this kind of brevity. The reason that I  
> like Python is that it makes me more productive, and I have been  
> able to use it as a single language
> to do lots of things, both small and large quickly.
>
> I think that any Python lover (not just me) would admit that Python  
> doesn't provide the "least characters" way of doing things. But  
> they would also consider
> that a low priority compared to programmer productivity, debugging  
> time, ability to understand other's code, etc. The problem with  
> using brevity as a measure of goodness is that it becomes  
> irrelevent for programs of any decent size. I like Python because I  
> have writing all kinds of complex programs (genetic optimizers,  
> machine learning classifiers, statistical analyzers, video editors,  
> Sudoku solvers, etc.) and months or years later I can still  
> understand the programs that I wrote.
> My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of  
> someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you  
> have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish  
> Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.
>
> That said, one should always pick an appropriate tool for the job,  
> and if Perl works for what you're doing, great. I think that you  
> implied that Perl is your first language, so you may want to look  
> into another as a comparison. I like Python, but I have heard some  
> nice things about Ruby. And of course, Java is always a good  
> language to know something about.
>
> -Aaron
>
>>>> Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> 11/25/2005 9:30 AM >>>
> Hi Aaron,
> As you can see, once I'm given a challenge, I don't easily let it go:
>
> After sending my last message, I realized there was an even shorter
> perl method from the command line
> $ perl -pe 'y/Z/5/'
> ATGACTTGACZTTCGGATCCATG
> ATGACTTGAC5TTCGGATCCATG
>
>
> Tom

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From dpool at hevanet.com  Mon Nov 28 11:40:14 2005
From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:40:14 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <1133206814.15098.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

(continuing the top post...)

Perhaps you should suggest he read "How Perl Saved the Human Genome
Project?"

http://www.stanford.edu/class/gene211/handouts/How_Perl_HGP.html

With main points being:


"I think several factors are responsible: 

1. Perl is remarkably good for slicing, dicing, twisting, wringing,
smoothing, summarizing and otherwise mangling text. Although the
biological sciences do involve a good deal of numeric analysis now, most
of the primary data is still text: clone names, annotations, comments,
bibliographic references. Even DNA sequences are textlike.
Interconverting incompatible data formats is a matter of text mangling
combined with some creative guesswork. Perl's powerful regular
expression matching and string manipulation operators simplify this job
in a way that isn't equalled by any other modern language. 

2. Perl is forgiving. Biological data is often incomplete, fields can be
missing, or a field that is expected to be present once occurs several
times (because, for example, an experiment was run in duplicate), or the
data was entered by hand and doesn't quite fit the expected format. Perl
doesn't particularly mind if a value is empty or contains odd
characters. Regular expressions can be written to pick up and correct a
variety of common errors in data entry. Of course this flexibility can
be also be a curse. I talk more about the problems with Perl below. 

3. Perl is component-oriented. Perl encourages people to write their
software in small modules, either using Perl library modules or with the
classic Unix tool-oriented approach. External programs can easily be
incorporated into a Perl script using a pipe, system call or socket. The
dynamic loader introduced with Perl5 allows people to extend the Perl
language with C routines or to make entire compiled libraries available
for the Perl interpreter. An effort is currently under way to gather all
the world's collected wisdom about biological data into a set of modules
called "bioPerl" (discussed at length in an article to be published
later in the Perl Journal). 

4. Perl is easy to write and fast to develop in. The interpreter doesn't
require you to declare all your function prototypes and data types in
advance, new variables spring into existence as needed, calls to
undefined functions only cause an error when the function is needed. The
debugger works well with Emacs and allows a comfortable interactive
style of development. 

5. Perl is a good prototyping language. Because Perl is quick and dirty,
it often makes sense to prototype new algorithms in Perl before moving
them to a fast compiled language. Sometimes it turns out that Perl is
fast enough so that of the algorithm doesn't have to be ported; more
frequently one can write a small core of the algorithm in C, compile it
as a dynamically loaded module or external executable, and leave the
rest of the application in Perl (for an example of a complex genome
mapping application implemented in this way, see
http://waldo.wi.mit.edu/ftp/distribution/software/rhmapper/). 

6. Perl is a good language for Web CGI scripting, and is growing in
importance as more labs turn to the Web for publishing their data. "

David

On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 11:02 -0800, Thomas J Keller wrote:
> Hi All,
> This is probably cheating. Tough, defending Perl against this Python
> snob should get you riled up enough to burn up a few of those T-day
> calories. So help me out here. Any other good arguments for this in
> house discussion? The fellow I got into this with is an Assistant
> Professor  in the Medical Informatics program. I'd like him to get
> over his dislike for Perl.
> 
> 
> What occurs to me to say is that if you can't understand someone
> else's perl code, they either didn't intend you to, or they were too
> short-sighted to write it properly. And what I like about Perl is that
> I can do anything with it that needs to be done. (I usually have to
> ask some help from the highly vaunted perl mongers of course.)
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> > From: "Aaron Cohen" <cohenaa at ohsu.edu>
> > Date: November 28, 2005 10:44:55 AM PST
> > To: "Tom Keller" <kellert at ohsu.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Genomics at OHSU
> > 
> > 
> > Tom:
> > Challenges are good when they lead to interesting discussions.
> > Here's my two cents.
> > 
> > 
> > I can't argue against the fact that Perl is good for one line string
> > manipulations. However, old-fashioned Unix tools such as sed do the
> > same thing.
> > Python isn't geared towards this kind of brevity. The reason that I
> > like Python is that it makes me more productive, and I have been
> > able to use it as a single language
> > to do lots of things, both small and large quickly.
> > 
> > 
> > I think that any Python lover (not just me) would admit that Python
> > doesn't provide the "least characters" way of doing things. But they
> > would also consider
> > that a low priority compared to programmer productivity, debugging
> > time, ability to understand other's code, etc. The problem with
> > using brevity as a measure of goodness is that it becomes irrelevent
> > for programs of any decent size. I like Python because I have
> > writing all kinds of complex programs (genetic optimizers, machine
> > learning classifiers, statistical analyzers, video editors, Sudoku
> > solvers, etc.) and months or years later I can still understand the
> > programs that I wrote. 
> > My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of
> > someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you
> > have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish
> > Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.
> > 
> > 
> > That said, one should always pick an appropriate tool for the job,
> > and if Perl works for what you're doing, great. I think that you
> > implied that Perl is your first language, so you may want to look
> > into another as a comparison. I like Python, but I have heard some
> > nice things about Ruby. And of course, Java is always a good
> > language to know something about.
> > 
> > 
> > -Aaron
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> 11/25/2005 9:30 AM >>>
> > Hi Aaron,
> > As you can see, once I'm given a challenge, I don't easily let it
> > go:
> > 
> > 
> > After sending my last message, I realized there was an even shorter
> >  
> > perl method from the command line
> > $ perl -pe 'y/Z/5/'
> > ATGACTTGACZTTCGGATCCATG
> > ATGACTTGAC5TTCGGATCCATG
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Tom
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 11:45:31 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:45:31 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200511281145.31246.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas J Keller
# on Monday 28 November 2005 11:02 am:

>> My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of ?
>> someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you ?
>> have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish ?
>> Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.

Hmm.  Is he trying to talk you into writing Python or are you trying to 
convince him to write Perl?  IME, that's not an argument that anyone 
can win (ok, you can win, but you have to use Inline::Python to do it.)

If it's a matter of whether or not you are *allowed* to write Perl, 
that's a different beast.  The arguments against this are typically 
backed by citing someone else's Perl code.  He'll have to prove that 
your code is incomprehensible to a skilled programmer.

I have yet to see Perl code that I don't understand.  I've seen lots of 
poorly-written code, but even if you do have to lookup a thing or two, 
you shouldn't need a language manual just to follow the logic.  Maybe 
to decipher a line or two, but the advantages of having some 
mindbending logic compressed into two lines are:  (1) that people that 
don't understand it cannot break it and (2) you don't have to skim-over 
50 lines to get to find the logic that you're hunting-down.

I can say "I can't make heads or tails of it without a language manual" 
about Python.  I've had to lookup what "pass" does a couple of times 
(you would think I would remember something so stupid if only because 
it is so amazingly stupid.)  What I mean is that I end up reading 100 
lines of code and then realizing "oh!  that means 'use constant 
{method1 => 1, method2 => 2, method3 => 3};'" or something equivalently 
trivial like map({deal(map({thing($_)} @$_[1..$#$_]))} @stuff).  (That 
might be a bit hairy, but it's only one line and you only have to parse 
it when you're planning to change it (which is likely never.))

Other points to consider might be the over-compartmentalization that 
python's batteries suffer from.  Sure, they're included, but you have 
to find them.  Examples would be the lack of warn() and die(), as well 
as a cleverly hidden exit().  IIRC, opening a string as a filehandle is 
possible, but not with open().  Apparently, ruby suffers from the same 
sort of problem, only there it leaks all the way down into integers, 
which leads to beautiful things like num = Time.now.to_i.to_s (e.g. 
$num = time();).

Lack of sigils makes string construction ugly and data structures more 
opaque.  I find it amusing that they are so often cited as Perl's 
greatest drawback.

On the other hand, maybe perl, python, and ruby are all bad ideas.  Use 
Latin.

  http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html
  http://search.cpan.org/search?module=Lingua::Romana::Perligata

--Eric
-- 
Atavism  n:  The recurrence of any peculiarity or disease of an ancestor
in a subsequent generation, usually due to genetic recombination.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From jeff at vpservices.com  Mon Nov 28 12:30:34 2005
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:30:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <438B68EA.4000003@vpservices.com>

Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Hi All,
> This is probably cheating. Tough, defending Perl against this Python 
> snob should get you riled up enough to burn up a few of those T-day 
> calories. So help me out here. Any other good arguments for this in 
> house discussion? 

Perhaps you could point your in-house folks to my papers in the Journal 
of Medical Informatics, ACM publications, and other professional 
journals showing my use of Perl in major projects at Columbia 
University, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and 
Columbia-Presbyterian hospital in the early-mid 90s. We were using Perl 
for medical curriculum and clinical systems that were all very large 
projects. And that was all before CPAN was the mega-resource it is now 
(we started with 4.019) so the possibilities for Perl in large projects 
is even greater now.

I was the coordinator of Internet development and online curriculum at 
Columbia University's Center for Academic Information Technology and 
lead developer on all the projects listed below and therefore I know 
first hand that Perl was the central IT tool in each of them. If it 
would help for me to talk to some of your colleagues in person about 
Perl in Medical Informatics, I'd be glad to.

Zucker, J., Chase, H., Molholt, P., Soliz, E., Kahn, R. M., Conceptual 
Modeling Techniques for Online Curriculum Design. 1997 AMIA fall symposium.

Zucker, J., Chase, H., Molholt, P., Bean, C., Kahn, R.M., A 
Comprehensive Strategy for Designing a Web?Based Curriculum. IN 
Proceedings of the 1996 AMIA Annual Fall Symposium. Hanley & Belfus, 
Inc., 1996. pp. 41?46.

Zucker, J., Kahn, R., and Molholt, P., An Electronic PDR Using Fielded 
Searches in HTML. IN Proceedings of the Nineteenth Annual Symposium on 
Computer Applications in Medical Care (SCAMC '95). McGraw?Hill, 1995. 
p.1012.

Kahn R.M., Molholt P. and Zucker J., CPMCnet: An Integrated Information 
and Internet Resource. IN Proceedings of the Eighteenth Annual Symposium 
on Computer Applications in Medical Care (SCAMC '94). McGraw?Hill, 1994. 
pp. 98?102.

DuBois K., Zucker J. and Galashaw D., A computer Assisted Psychiatric 
Nursing Review: Modeling Nursing/Computer Analyst Collarboration. IN 
Proceedings of the Eighteenth Annual Symposium on Computer Applications 
in Medical Care (SCAMC '94). McGraw?Hill, 1994. p.1020.

Zucker J., Kahn R.M. and Natarajan N., Clinical, Scholarly and Campus 
Information Hypertext Tools At Columbia?Presbyterian Medical Center. IN 
Proceedings of the Seventeenth Annual Symposium on Computer Applications 
in Medical Care (SCAMC '93). McGraw?Hill, 1994. pp. 539?548.

Zucker, Jeff, Kahn, Robert M., Natarajan, Narayanan, 'Health Sciences 
Hypertexts at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,' Proceedings of ACM 
Hypertext'93 -- Demonstrations, 1993, pp. 15.

-- 
Jeff Zucker



From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 28 12:59:52 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20051128205952.55285.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>

Almost invariably the serious gripes I hear about Perl come from those
who know the language well.  Perl has some real problems but those who
are less familiar with the language have probably heard the "meme"
gripes and they're happy to parrot them.  The "illegible" gripe really
annoys me as we don't hear that leveled much against PHP even though
programmers unfamiliar with either language would be hard-pressed to
tell them apart.

> > My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of  
> > someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you  
> > have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish  
> > Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.

I find I have problems making heads or tails out of any programming
language I'm unfamiliar with but since it's popular to bash Perl,
people feel OK to say "I don't get it" and somehow claim this is Perl's
fault rather than their own.  There are many programmers who have
plenty of experience with other languages and yet don't have any
problems understanding Perl.  That a handful of people who don't know
the language well seem to dominate the opinions really says a lot about
the power of "truth by repetition".

Consider the Chinese language.  If you're learning the language and
your instructor forgets to tell you about its tonal nature (or you
never learned), then you will have a much harder time learning the
language.  Two words which sound identical to you can have vastly
different meanings if the pitch is off.  The same goes for Perl (in a
manner of speaking):

  my $data   = $line =~ /($some_regex)/;
  my ($data) = $line =~ /($some_regex)/;

It's almost guaranteed you want the second line and for a "native" Perl
speaker who's familiar with the notion of "context", it's quite
understandable why.  To someone who never learned about context in
Perl, they may not even see the difference between those two lines.  If
they don't see it, they'll break it.

Of course, we can extend this further by discussing the notion of
topics:

  print foreach @item;

You see, Perl's really a big language and it's not a toy. 
Unfortunately many people who don't know Perl assume it's just like the
languages they're familiar with and in many respects this simply isn't
true.  However, just as a native Mandarin speaker has no problem with
the tonal nature of Chinese, someone who knows Perl has no problems
with how context and topics work even though they might not even know
those two words.

Unfortunately, those are two core concepts which are not taught or
explained well to many new programmers.  People come to Perl thinking
that because they know C or Java that Perl will be a snap and they run
away screaming "Perl's not C or Java!"  Which, of course, it doesn't
pretend to be.

So to a certain extent I would claim your friend is right.  Perl, like
Mandarin, *is* incomprehensible if you only learn a little bit and have
missed some of the basics.  I'm willing to bet that he doesn't know
Perl well.  Frankly, while I know a little Scheme, I don't know it well
and I find the language unreadable despite its lack of syntax.  I
suspect Schemers would my criticizing Scheme as being unreadable would
my find my assertion just as laughable.  Further, were I to confuse my
inability to understand Scheme with silly assertions about its utility,
I would look sillier still.

Mind you, there are some issues which can make Perl illegible but the
biggest is probably how easy it is to work with the basics.  This has
attracted a lot of sysadmins, Web developers and others who may have
little programming experience.  Because Perl's so easy to start with,
I've seen more bad beginner code in Perl than I have in most other
languages.  This, unfortunately, is probably an unsurmountable problem.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From bryce at osdl.org  Mon Nov 28 13:00:20 2005
From: bryce at osdl.org (Bryce Harrington)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:00:20 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20051128210020.GB20089@osdl.org>

The thing that makes Perl great is CPAN.  With CPAN I can get my job
done much faster because it's code I don't have to write, test, and
document.

Whenever I get into Perl vs. XYZ language discussions, I find CPAN to be
the one argument no one can really counter.  

Bryce

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:02:26AM -0800, Thomas J Keller wrote:
> Hi All,
> This is probably cheating. Tough, defending Perl against this Python  
> snob should get you riled up enough to burn up a few of those T-day  
> calories. So help me out here. Any other good arguments for this in  
> house discussion? The fellow I got into this with is an Assistant  
> Professor  in the Medical Informatics program. I'd like him to get  
> over his dislike for Perl.
> 
> What occurs to me to say is that if you can't understand someone  
> else's perl code, they either didn't intend you to, or they were too  
> short-sighted to write it properly. And what I like about Perl is  
> that I can do anything with it that needs to be done. (I usually have  
> to ask some help from the highly vaunted perl mongers of course.)
> 
> Tom
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> >From: "Aaron Cohen" <cohenaa at ohsu.edu>
> >Date: November 28, 2005 10:44:55 AM PST
> >To: "Tom Keller" <kellert at ohsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Genomics at OHSU
> >
> >Tom:
> >Challenges are good when they lead to interesting discussions.  
> >Here's my two cents.
> >
> >I can't argue against the fact that Perl is good for one line  
> >string manipulations. However, old-fashioned Unix tools such as sed  
> >do the same thing.
> >Python isn't geared towards this kind of brevity. The reason that I  
> >like Python is that it makes me more productive, and I have been  
> >able to use it as a single language
> >to do lots of things, both small and large quickly.
> >
> >I think that any Python lover (not just me) would admit that Python  
> >doesn't provide the "least characters" way of doing things. But  
> >they would also consider
> >that a low priority compared to programmer productivity, debugging  
> >time, ability to understand other's code, etc. The problem with  
> >using brevity as a measure of goodness is that it becomes  
> >irrelevent for programs of any decent size. I like Python because I  
> >have writing all kinds of complex programs (genetic optimizers,  
> >machine learning classifiers, statistical analyzers, video editors,  
> >Sudoku solvers, etc.) and months or years later I can still  
> >understand the programs that I wrote.
> >My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of  
> >someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you  
> >have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish  
> >Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.
> >
> >That said, one should always pick an appropriate tool for the job,  
> >and if Perl works for what you're doing, great. I think that you  
> >implied that Perl is your first language, so you may want to look  
> >into another as a comparison. I like Python, but I have heard some  
> >nice things about Ruby. And of course, Java is always a good  
> >language to know something about.
> >
> >-Aaron
> >
> >>>>Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> 11/25/2005 9:30 AM >>>
> >Hi Aaron,
> >As you can see, once I'm given a challenge, I don't easily let it go:
> >
> >After sending my last message, I realized there was an even shorter
> >perl method from the command line
> >$ perl -pe 'y/Z/5/'
> >ATGACTTGACZTTCGGATCCATG
> >ATGACTTGAC5TTCGGATCCATG
> >
> >
> >Tom
> 

> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

From bryce at osdl.org  Mon Nov 28 13:14:22 2005
From: bryce at osdl.org (Bryce Harrington)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:14:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <20051128205952.55285.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
	<20051128205952.55285.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20051128211422.GC20089@osdl.org>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:59:52PM -0800, Ovid wrote:
> The "illegible" gripe really annoys me as we don't hear that leveled
> much against PHP even though programmers unfamiliar with either
> language would be hard-pressed to tell them apart.

This also annoys me a lot.  I've done a fair share of Zope coding and
can say with certainty that people who say you can't make unreadable
Python code just probably haven't read other people's Python code.  ;-)

> Because Perl's so easy to start with, I've seen more bad beginner code
> in Perl than I have in most other languages.  This, unfortunately, is
> probably an unsurmountable problem.

This has been my experience as well; just about any code from CPAN is
very readable and (usually) concise and well documented.  The complaints
about Perl probably stem from back in the early web period when people
were using it mixed up with HTML and poor coding style.  But that class
of developer appears to have moved on to some of the more web-specific
languages.

Also, I've seen perl code that is really just a highly advanced sed
script, thick with regular expressions.  regexp's are one of the
greatest parts about Perl, but they _do_ look like line noise...
I can see how someone unfamiliar with Perl might run across a string of
regexp's and use that to justify an 'unreadable' claim.  Maybe some
languages get "credit" for readability on this count, only because they
make regular expressions so difficult to do that people don't do them.
;-)

Bryce


From tex at off.org  Mon Nov 28 14:24:08 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:24:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20051128222408.GA7172@gblx.net>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:02:26AM -0800, Thomas J Keller wrote:
> Hi All,
> This is probably cheating. Tough, defending Perl against this Python  
> snob should get you riled up enough to burn up a few of those T-day  
> calories. So help me out here. Any other good arguments for this in  
> house discussion? The fellow I got into this with is an Assistant  
> Professor  in the Medical Informatics program. I'd like him to get  
> over his dislike for Perl.
> 
> What occurs to me to say is that if you can't understand someone  
> else's perl code, they either didn't intend you to, or they were too  
> short-sighted to write it properly. And what I like about Perl is  
> that I can do anything with it that needs to be done. (I usually have  
> to ask some help from the highly vaunted perl mongers of course.)
> 

	I would disagree with the statement regarding intent. Because Perl
is such a powerful and flexible language, it lends itself to the style of
programming most comfortable to the programmer. I've seen perl that looked like
everything from C to ksh to basic. One very competent Perl programmer I've
worked with made liberal use of perl formats, which are pretty bizarre at
first glance.

	if your key criteria are readability and ease of code
maintenance, perhaps Python might be better. Looking over the Python core
libraries, for example, they appear clean, consistent, readable, and concise.
Don't take my word for it, go look for yourself.
	You don't ever see statements like:

  return sort map {($_, db_complete($_ . "::", "V ", 2))}
    grep /^\Q$text/, map { /^(.*)::$/ ? ($1) : ()} keys %:: # top-packages
      if (substr $line, 0, $start) =~ /^\|*[Vm]\s+$/ and $text =~ /^\w*$/;

	Python has a generally simple syntax and fewer builtins and globals
than Perl, so there's much less rope to hang yourself with. This simplicity
has also made it possible to have a stable threads implementation well before
Perl, as well as a java based python interpreter.

	That doesn't mean it's not possible to create simple, maintainable perl
code, just that the language doesn't push you into it. There's definitely
more of a learning curve to create maintainable code, and more of a learning
curve to understanding it. I've seen bad python code to be sure, but it seems
more of a rarity and it's still been easier to follow than the equivalent badly
written perl.

	The other side of the coin is that the flexibility, expressiveness,
and power of Perl make development faster than in any other language I've yet
to work with, and the supporting libraries add much on all three counts. Our
team uses it every day, and we support far more applications per developer than
other development teams within our company. YMMV.

	Austin

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Mon Nov 28 15:03:08 2005
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:03:08 +0200
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200511290103.09240.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi all!

On Monday 28 November 2005 21:02, Thomas J Keller wrote:
> > My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of
> > someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you
> > have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish
> > Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.
> >

OK. My personal experiences:

1. I personally contributed to and eventually became co-mainter of WWW-Form:

http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Form/

I found its source code incredibly easy to understand and had no problem 
refactoring and extending it, even without any help from the author. There 
were many comments there, but I often found them distracting.

2. Test::Harness -> Test::Run :

http://use.perl.org/~Shlomi Fish/journal/27467

I took Test::Harness, a "largish" Perl module (3,590 Lines of code according 
to SLOCCount), and heavily revamped it: refactored it, changed its internal 
APIs, added more objects, etc. I had no problem understanding how to refactor 
the code, and I think I only referred to the language manual for 
understanding the perl formats.

This module was temporarily named Test::Shlomif::Harness and is now know as 
Test::Run. You can find its various history here:

http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/web-cpan/Test-Harness-NG/

I should note that I feel the code I started with was of a relatively low 
quality, but I was able to improve it.

----------------

One thing I should note is that the core Perl language is quite large, and 
requires a lot of time to familiarise oneself with it entirely. As a result, 
inexperienced programmers who read code of more experienced programmers, or 
of programmers with a different background, may find it difficult to 
understand the latter's code. But being able to express oneself in Perl in 
many different ways, often at the same time, is one thing that many Perl 
programmers like about Perl. If you prefer that the language will limit you 
in some ways, then you shouldn't use Perl.

That put aside, another issue related to understanding what a certain code 
does is understanding what it's trying to do after understanding what each 
statement does individually. This is the same problem in any language.

I should note that I find reading "real" Scheme code, written by expert 
programmers, with many macros, etc. much more difficult than reading Perl 
code. In Scheme and other LISP dialects, one can not always determine what 
piece of code does by reading it, and often it requires reading a lot of the 
rest of the code. Reading the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer 
Programs" Scheme code is easy, but I could not understand the source code of 
jacal -  http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/JACAL.html

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the
bottom 5%.

From allison at perl.org  Mon Nov 28 20:34:06 2005
From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:34:06 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
References: <438ADFA702000017004F0B54@ohsu.edu>
	<D106F8B2-4DE7-4068-8544-6E5A0939F026@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <31701410-6AED-4806-BCB0-DFBE72F3E54C@perl.org>

On Nov 28, 2005, at 14:02, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> I'd like him to get over his dislike for Perl.

Hand him a copy of Perl Best Practices?

Allison

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Tue Nov 29 10:12:23 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:12:23 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
References: <A7168E57-F121-42D4-AE84-A500C468646B@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <D5817FF7-7890-4FC3-923F-B5CF364D0E8A@ohsu.edu>

Just to finish this thread. Thanks for all the help with this. Here's  
my last message to the 'Python snob':

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu>
> Date: November 29, 2005 10:09:56 AM PST
> To: Aaron Cohen <cohenaa at ohsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Genomics at OHSU
>
> Hi Aaron,
> First a disclaimer: I'd only started in on this 'cause you called  
> yourself a "Python snob" which implied Perl lost out in comparison.  
> I had only meant to give you a little jibe in return. And Python is  
> undoubtedly an effective language to work in. But my gosh, it must  
> be a long time since you seriously looked at Perl. Perl is a very  
> well developed language. It's been used successfully for many,  
> many, really large and successful projects. As my friend Austin  
> says  "...the flexibility, expressiveness, and power of Perl make  
> development faster than in any other language I've yet to work  
> with, and the supporting libraries add much on all three counts.  
> Our team uses it every day, and we support far more applications  
> per developer than other development teams within our company."  
> Austin Schutz <tex at off.org>.
>
> And though it is quite different from languages with computer  
> science roots. (Perl's roots are in linguistics), that's not really  
> a weakness. One of the more opaque features is that meaning is  
> context dependent in Perl. So
>  my $data   = $line =~ /($some_regex)/;
>  my ($data) = $line =~ /($some_regex)/;
>
> These mean different things. But once you understand list vs scalar  
> context, it's easy. And also flexible and powerful.
>
> The big push amongst the people here in Portland [The people who  
> help me: pdx-pm.org.] is reusability and testing. Objects work well  
> with those goals. And in fact most of the recent additions to CPAN  
> (If you haven't looked at cpan lately, you will be amazed at how  
> many solutions are already there) are object oriented. You should  
> especially take a look at the BioPerl modules.  I know Python has a  
> BioPython project too, and it may be great, but the BioPerl project  
> is a fantastic resource.
>
> As you suggested earlier, there should be a wide variety of tools  
> available and the best one for the job should be used.
> "Best" can be defined in many ways of course, and personal  
> preference of the person doing the work is an important one.
>
> As I said, I was only reacting to the "snob" comment at first. But  
> now, I'd like to suggest that you need someone with perl expertise  
> in your group.
>
> That probably sounds pugnacious, but I don't mean it to be. I have  
> been arguing for a while now that OHSU needs to develop its in- 
> house computing base: programmers, not just more servers. So I'd  
> argue we need more Perl, Python, Java, C, C++, etc., programmers  
> around here and the research community needs a way to get them  
> involved in their research and informatics needs. I hope this  
> Genomics Track project helps to accomplish that.
>
>
> Yours truly,
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Nov 28, 2005, at 1:31 PM, Aaron Cohen wrote:
>
>> Tom:
>> I don't know of any jobs right now. I may have something if my  
>> grant gets funded.
>>
>> I have no gripe with Perl for what you are using it for. For small  
>> programs mine is mostly an aesthetic preference.
>> My needs are different, and I needed something that scales to  
>> large programs well. Did I mention that Python is object oriented?
>> I thought that they were enhancing Perl with objects, is that  
>> available yet.
>> I'll take a look at the Stein article.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Aaron
>>
>>>>> Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> 11/28/2005 12:54 PM >>>
>> Hi Aaron,
>> I agree with the "best tool for the job" concept in principle. But
>> for people like me, for whom programming and software development is
>> not in our primary job description, the "Swiss army knife" of
>> languages turns out to be a good choice. My reasoning was that I
>> really only had time to learn one language; so it's got to do
>> everything I needed. It's funny too about what people consider
>> readable; there is a large subjective component. I can generally grok
>> a perl program, but I do a lot of borrowing and customizing for my
>> own purposes, so I'm used to that. Perl is a great "glue" language.
>> So for me, managing a core facility's service lab, the need to
>> extract data, change it, and feed it to something else is really
>> important; and perl excels at that. This (http://www.stanford.edu/
>> class/gene211/handouts/How_Perl_HGP.html) is an old article by
>> Lincoln Stein, but I think his points are still valid.
>>
>> I did enjoy the linux article too.
>> Thanks,
>> Tom K.
>>
>> PS. An old pdx-perlmonger colleague used to work in Bioinformatics
>> when he was at Columbia. He passed these to me and I pass them on in
>> case you're interested. Do you have any job openings? Jeff would be a
>> good choice.
>>
>> Zucker, J., Chase, H., Molholt, P., Soliz, E., Kahn, R. M.,  
>> Conceptual
>> Modeling Techniques for Online Curriculum Design. 1997 AMIA fall
>> symposium.
>>
>> Zucker, J., Chase, H., Molholt, P., Bean, C., Kahn, R.M., A
>> Comprehensive Strategy for Designing a Web*Based Curriculum. IN
>> Proceedings of the 1996 AMIA Annual Fall Symposium. Hanley & Belfus,
>> Inc., 1996. pp. 41*46.
>>
>> Zucker, J., Kahn, R., and Molholt, P., An Electronic PDR Using  
>> Fielded
>> Searches in HTML. IN Proceedings of the Nineteenth Annual  
>> Symposium on
>> Computer Applications in Medical Care (SCAMC '95). McGraw*Hill, 1995.
>> p.1012.
>>
>> Kahn R.M., Molholt P. and Zucker J., CPMCnet: An Integrated  
>> Information
>> and Internet Resource. IN Proceedings of the Eighteenth Annual  
>> Symposium
>> on Computer Applications in Medical Care (SCAMC '94). McGraw*Hill,
>> 1994.
>> pp. 98*102.
>>
>> DuBois K., Zucker J. and Galashaw D., A computer Assisted Psychiatric
>> Nursing Review: Modeling Nursing/Computer Analyst Collarboration. IN
>> Proceedings of the Eighteenth Annual Symposium on Computer  
>> Applications
>> in Medical Care (SCAMC '94). McGraw*Hill, 1994. p.1020.
>>
>> Zucker J., Kahn R.M. and Natarajan N., Clinical, Scholarly and Campus
>> Information Hypertext Tools At Columbia*Presbyterian Medical Center.
>> IN
>> Proceedings of the Seventeenth Annual Symposium on Computer  
>> Applications
>> in Medical Care (SCAMC '93). McGraw*Hill, 1994. pp. 539*548.
>>
>> Zucker, Jeff, Kahn, Robert M., Natarajan, Narayanan, 'Health Sciences
>> Hypertexts at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,' Proceedings  
>> of ACM
>> Hypertext'93 -- Demonstrations, 1993, pp. 15.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess we should all work in the language we are most productive in.
>> I am thinking about branching out a bit into "Ruby on Rails".
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2005, at 10:44 AM, Aaron Cohen wrote:
>>
>>> Tom:
>>> Challenges are good when they lead to interesting discussions.
>>> Here's my two cents.
>>>
>>> I can't argue against the fact that Perl is good for one line
>>> string manipulations. However, old-fashioned Unix tools such as sed
>>> do the same thing.
>>> Python isn't geared towards this kind of brevity. The reason that I
>>> like Python is that it makes me more productive, and I have been
>>> able to use it as a single language
>>> to do lots of things, both small and large quickly.
>>>
>>> I think that any Python lover (not just me) would admit that Python
>>> doesn't provide the "least characters" way of doing things. But
>>> they would also consider
>>> that a low priority compared to programmer productivity, debugging
>>> time, ability to understand other's code, etc. The problem with
>>> using brevity as a measure of goodness is that it becomes
>>> irrelevent for programs of any decent size. I like Python because I
>>> have writing all kinds of complex programs (genetic optimizers,
>>> machine learning classifiers, statistical analyzers, video editors,
>>> Sudoku solvers, etc.) and months or years later I can still
>>> understand the programs that I wrote.
>>> My gripe against Perl is that I can't make heads or tails out of
>>> someone else's code without a language manual by my side. Do you
>>> have any experience in taking and adapting someone else's largish
>>> Perl code? Perhaps your experience is different.
>>>
>>> That said, one should always pick an appropriate tool for the job,
>>> and if Perl works for what you're doing, great. I think that you
>>> implied that Perl is your first language, so you may want to look
>>> into another as a comparison. I like Python, but I have heard some
>>> nice things about Ruby. And of course, Java is always a good
>>> language to know something about.
>>>
>>> -Aaron
>>>
>>>>>> Thomas J Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> 11/25/2005 9:30 AM >>>
>>> Hi Aaron,
>>> As you can see, once I'm given a challenge, I don't easily let it  
>>> go:
>>>
>>> After sending my last message, I realized there was an even shorter
>>> perl method from the command line
>>> $ perl -pe 'y/Z/5/'
>>> ATGACTTGACZTTCGGATCCATG
>>> ATGACTTGAC5TTCGGATCCATG
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>>
>

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From marvin at rectangular.com  Tue Nov 29 11:21:27 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:21:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Genomics at OHSU
In-Reply-To: <D5817FF7-7890-4FC3-923F-B5CF364D0E8A@ohsu.edu>
References: <A7168E57-F121-42D4-AE84-A500C468646B@ohsu.edu>
	<D5817FF7-7890-4FC3-923F-B5CF364D0E8A@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <98EE348D-080D-47D4-B037-9ED17032EE29@rectangular.com>


On Nov 29, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Thomas J Keller quoted someone who  
doesn't know very much:

>>> I thought that they were enhancing Perl with objects, is that  
>>> available yet.

Yikes!

Ignorance breeds holy war.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 15:19:54 2005
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:19:54 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Due to the recent non-perl vs perl thread I figured I
	would start one about CPAN.
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>

First I have to state that I love CPAN. Its what makes perl useful
everywhere. Though it's not without is's issues. For me though the
largest issue is when running in a shared server enviroment. With PHP
just about everything I would use on a normal day is included by
default (well GD i guess would be the exception on some older boxes..)
and if I need I can install PEAR with out the need to worry about
having admin access or more imporantly access to gcc. Though with CPAN
there are a few root libs that you need (I keep running in to needing
libxml forexample).

So does any one have a good solution in dealing with such cases? I
cant expect that every hosting service would have every module
installed by default, I can try to make a local install for most
modules but if there are libs that you need your still out. Am I just
barking up the wrong tree?

benh~

From andrew.clapp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 15:45:26 2005
From: andrew.clapp at gmail.com (Andrew Clapp)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:45:26 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Due to the recent non-perl vs perl thread I figured I
	would start one about CPAN.
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>

I think this is a valid concern.  What can we do that would allow more
hosting services to have more core functionality for CGI type things?  I
have recently used Imager-0.45, (imager.perl.org), and it's dependencies are
not huge for the ability to make images on the fly.  But I can imagine that
some admins might get annoyed by the conflicts between freetype and
freetype2, libgif and libungif, etc.

-ASC

On 11/29/05, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> First I have to state that I love CPAN. Its what makes perl useful
> everywhere. Though it's not without is's issues. For me though the
> largest issue is when running in a shared server enviroment. With PHP
> just about everything I would use on a normal day is included by
> default (well GD i guess would be the exception on some older boxes..)
> and if I need I can install PEAR with out the need to worry about
> having admin access or more imporantly access to gcc. Though with CPAN
> there are a few root libs that you need (I keep running in to needing
> libxml forexample).
>
> So does any one have a good solution in dealing with such cases? I
> cant expect that every hosting service would have every module
> installed by default, I can try to make a local install for most
> modules but if there are libs that you need your still out. Am I just
> barking up the wrong tree?
>
> benh~
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



--
"Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
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From leffjesh at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 16:03:37 2005
From: leffjesh at gmail.com (Dundas Townsend)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:03:37 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Due to the recent non-perl vs perl thread I figured I
	would start one about CPAN.
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b88e5afa0511291603k33ddebe6gd4ff26c7513d26df@mail.gmail.com>

Can't you just do the configure, make and make test on the module, but not
make install.  Then copy the directory that the make created to
a perllib folder in your home directory. Then just add a use lib
"/home/user/perllib"; line and you can start using you modules.  I did this
recently after waiting for way to long for dreamhost to do it for me and it
worked.

-Jeff


On 11/29/05, Andrew Clapp <andrew.clapp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think this is a valid concern.  What can we do that would allow more
> hosting services to have more core functionality for CGI type things?  I
> have recently used Imager-0.45, (imager.perl.org), and it's dependencies
> are not huge for the ability to make images on the fly.  But I can imagine
> that some admins might get annoyed by the conflicts between freetype and
> freetype2, libgif and libungif, etc.
>
> -ASC
>
> On 11/29/05, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > First I have to state that I love CPAN. Its what makes perl useful
> > everywhere. Though it's not without is's issues. For me though the
> > largest issue is when running in a shared server enviroment. With PHP
> > just about everything I would use on a normal day is included by
> > default (well GD i guess would be the exception on some older boxes..)
> > and if I need I can install PEAR with out the need to worry about
> > having admin access or more imporantly access to gcc. Though with CPAN
> > there are a few root libs that you need (I keep running in to needing
> > libxml forexample).
> >
> > So does any one have a good solution in dealing with such cases? I
> > cant expect that every hosting service would have every module
> > installed by default, I can try to make a local install for most
> > modules but if there are libs that you need your still out. Am I just
> > barking up the wrong tree?
> >
> > benh~
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
>
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From bryce at osdl.org  Tue Nov 29 16:04:57 2005
From: bryce at osdl.org (Bryce Harrington)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:04:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Due to the recent non-perl vs perl thread I figured I
	would start one about CPAN.
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051130000457.GE23680@osdl.org>

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 03:45:26PM -0800, Andrew Clapp wrote:
> I think this is a valid concern.  What can we do that would allow more
> hosting services to have more core functionality for CGI type things?  I
> have recently used Imager-0.45, (imager.perl.org), and it's dependencies are
> not huge for the ability to make images on the fly.  But I can imagine that
> some admins might get annoyed by the conflicts between freetype and
> freetype2, libgif and libungif, etc.

I've installed individual modules into userspace, by specifying the
prefix to Makefile.PL.  Has anyone done that successfully with cpan?  I
seem to recall trying to customize a Makefile.PL input for a cpan
install once, but one of the modules choked on it badly.

It would be extremely cool if one could do something like...  

    cpan -i Foo::Bar -P /home/mydir

and have everything "just work".

Also, when running modules this way, I've found it really cumbersome to
specify the Perl library location to individual scripts.  I know there's
like 5 different ways to specify additional library paths, but I'm
curious what the Best Practices are in this case.

Bryce

From andrew.clapp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 16:12:14 2005
From: andrew.clapp at gmail.com (Andrew Clapp)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:12:14 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Due to the recent non-perl vs perl thread I figured I
	would start one about CPAN.
In-Reply-To: <b88e5afa0511291603k33ddebe6gd4ff26c7513d26df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
	<b88e5afa0511291603k33ddebe6gd4ff26c7513d26df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ac4498880511291612s2a75fccet168b1ea3dc1aeda8@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I would like to know if it's possible/ethical/feasable to make
images with perl, without using an image creation library like libpng that
must be built and installed by the sysadmin.  I don't know how it works with
other languages (java), but they seem to make cool interactive, image driven
apps.  I want to do that with CGI too.  Currently, I must make all my images
on the fly (Imager, libpng, freetype, blah, blah) and build imagemaps to
make them clickably functional.  I can't imagine trying to get some hosting
service droid to get all that working correctly for me (IE, if I did not
have access to my own server), but maybe they are doing ok with that these
days.

Is there a better way?  What's the latest along these lines with perl?

-ASC

On 11/29/05, Dundas Townsend <leffjesh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can't you just do the configure, make and make test on the module, but not
> make install.  Then copy the directory that the make created to
> a perllib folder in your home directory. Then just add a use lib
> "/home/user/perllib"; line and you can start using you modules.  I did this
> recently after waiting for way to long for dreamhost to do it for me and it
> worked.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On 11/29/05, Andrew Clapp <andrew.clapp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think this is a valid concern.  What can we do that would allow more
> > hosting services to have more core functionality for CGI type things?  I
> > have recently used Imager-0.45, (imager.perl.org), and it's dependencies
> > are not huge for the ability to make images on the fly.  But I can imagine
> > that some admins might get annoyed by the conflicts between freetype and
> > freetype2, libgif and libungif, etc.
> >
> > -ASC
> >
> > On 11/29/05, benh <ben.hengst at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > First I have to state that I love CPAN. Its what makes perl useful
> > > everywhere. Though it's not without is's issues. For me though the
> > > largest issue is when running in a shared server enviroment. With PHP
> > > just about everything I would use on a normal day is included by
> > > default (well GD i guess would be the exception on some older boxes..)
> > > and if I need I can install PEAR with out the need to worry about
> > > having admin access or more imporantly access to gcc. Though with CPAN
> > > there are a few root libs that you need (I keep running in to needing
> > > libxml forexample).
> > >
> > > So does any one have a good solution in dealing with such cases? I
> > > cant expect that every hosting service would have every module
> > > installed by default, I can try to make a local install for most
> > > modules but if there are libs that you need your still out. Am I just
> > > barking up the wrong tree?
> > >
> > > benh~
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> > > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> >
> >
>


--
"Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
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From bryce at osdl.org  Tue Nov 29 16:46:22 2005
From: bryce at osdl.org (Bryce Harrington)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:46:22 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] SVG Images with Perl (was Re:  ... about CPAN.)
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880511291612s2a75fccet168b1ea3dc1aeda8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85ddf48b0511291519s97162a4wcf06c39cc2f30b23@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880511291545r2b839931t6c470695e71b4bdd@mail.gmail.com>
	<b88e5afa0511291603k33ddebe6gd4ff26c7513d26df@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880511291612s2a75fccet168b1ea3dc1aeda8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051130004622.GF23680@osdl.org>

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 04:12:14PM -0800, Andrew Clapp wrote:
> I guess I would like to know if it's possible/ethical/feasable to make
> images with perl, without using an image creation library like libpng that
> must be built and installed by the sysadmin.  I don't know how it works with
> other languages (java), but they seem to make cool interactive, image driven
> apps.  I want to do that with CGI too.  Currently, I must make all my images
> on the fly (Imager, libpng, freetype, blah, blah) and build imagemaps to
> make them clickably functional.  I can't imagine trying to get some hosting
> service droid to get all that working correctly for me (IE, if I did not
> have access to my own server), but maybe they are doing ok with that these
> days.
> 
> Is there a better way?  What's the latest along these lines with perl?

The past few days I've been playing around with Firefox 1.5's new SVG
capabilities.  It won't solve your problem but it's __really cool__.

Here's a mockup for a Perl-based game I'm working on (only works in
Firefox 1.5): 

    http://bryceharrington.org/mint.xhtml

The entire layout is done in Inkscape.  I just took the SVG, stripped
off the header, and pasted it into a .xhtml file, loaded it in Mozilla,
and bam, it looks great.

Even though it's pretty extremely browser dependent at this point, I am
really loving how easy it is to do fairly sophisticated layouts.  I had
to tweak a few things with the font sizes (still not perfect), but
otherwise am impressed with how close it is to how it looked in
Inkscape.  Plus, SVG (unlike Flash) is an open standard with support
from lots of other libs and tools, so I expect to see it grow quickly
and get supported under more browsers.  SVG is already partly supported
by Konqueror, IE, and Opera, although there's discrepancies between them
currently; I figure within a year or so those will be worked out.

I love with this approach that I can completely forget about image
maps, png rendering, and so on.  Hyperlinks are as simple as just
putting in something like this:

   <a xlink:href="http://foobar.com">
      <rect blah blah />
   </a>

The links conform to whatever the outline is.  Check the corners of the
Attack button in my screen mockup - the clickability extends exactly to
the boundary of that shape and no further.

Also, you can embed javascript in SVG.  I've got a mouseover experiment
going with the button in the top right corner, as an example.  Some
limited animation is also possible, though I haven't played with that
yet.

Where this'll tie into Perl...  My plan is to hook this up to DBI,
CGI::Fast and Template::Toolkit to make the interface DB driven.  TT is
able to templatify any XML language, so why not SVG?  8-)

Bryce

P.S., Oh and for the record, this game is going to be done as an open
source project, so if anyone else wants to play around with this stuff
too, just drop me a line.

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Nov 30 11:00:44 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:00:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
Message-ID: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>

Hi, sorry for the non-perl stuff.
I've installed Kwiki.pm and like it a lot. But I'd like to use  
ordered lists, and I don't get how to get the automatic numbering to  
work. Does anyone know off the top of their head how to do that? I've  
looked at the formatting help page, but it doesn't work as  
advertised. And the Sandbox has a very cool formatting widget set. Is  
their a formatting plugin module?

Thanks,
Tom


From krisb at ring.org  Wed Nov 30 11:02:43 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:02:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511301059140.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Hi, sorry for the non-perl stuff.
> I've installed Kwiki.pm and like it a lot. But I'd like to use
> ordered lists, and I don't get how to get the automatic numbering to
> work. Does anyone know off the top of their head how to do that? I've

Hi Tom, pre- and post-formatted examples would help.  I tried this on a
Kwiki I have access to (This is CGI::Kwiki Version 0.18):

0 test
00 tester
00 testy
000 test
0 test

gives

   1. test
         1. tester
         2. testy
               1. test
   2. test


Thanks.

-Kris


From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Nov 30 11:12:02 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:12:02 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <9828DEBB-0CE0-4E85-A36D-2DAE0D9AD4D1@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:00 AM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> I've installed Kwiki.pm and like it a lot. But I'd like to use
> ordered lists, and I don't get how to get the automatic numbering to
> work.

it used to be that you could start the first item of a list with a 0,  
then use bullets for the rest, and it would all be ordered.  no  
more:  they all have to be zeros.  in Kwiki .38:

0 one
00 one
00 two
000 one
000 two
00 three
0 two

1. one
	1. one
	2. two
		1. one
		2. two
	3. three
2. two

r

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Nov 30 11:07:31 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:07:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <31028.170.135.241.46.1133377651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Thomas J Keller wrote:
> Hi, sorry for the non-perl stuff.
> I've installed Kwiki.pm and like it a lot. But I'd like to use
> ordered lists, and I don't get how to get the automatic numbering to
> work. Does anyone know off the top of their head how to do that?

http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?SandBox


-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Nov 30 11:20:32 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:20:32 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <31028.170.135.241.46.1133377651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
	<31028.170.135.241.46.1133377651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <45594B55-9E51-4239-A7A4-F459EF5EE05C@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?SandBox

keep in mind that our kwiki is version .18 -- ancient, IOW.  most of  
the formatting of > .3x kwiki is better (you can have links inside  
headings, for instance), but it is a little different.

r


From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Nov 30 11:23:36 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:23:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <45594B55-9E51-4239-A7A4-F459EF5EE05C@sonofhans.net>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
	<31028.170.135.241.46.1133377651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<45594B55-9E51-4239-A7A4-F459EF5EE05C@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <31586.170.135.241.46.1133378616.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Randall Hansen wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:
>
>> http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?SandBox
>
> keep in mind that our kwiki is version .18 -- ancient, IOW.

The hitting of the send key was kwiker than the brain.

I'd just gone to the site and created that page in order to be sure, absolutly
sure, that I knew how to answer Tom's question.  Then I typed in the link and
pressed send without adding the explanation.  As this is the second email I've
received reminding me of the kwiki version I'll post my explanation now:

Tom,

See the above link for a working example and a couple of non-working examples that
work in other wikis.

-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Nov 30 11:55:33 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:55:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <31586.170.135.241.46.1133378616.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
	<31028.170.135.241.46.1133377651.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
	<45594B55-9E51-4239-A7A4-F459EF5EE05C@sonofhans.net>
	<31586.170.135.241.46.1133378616.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <28725E28-E660-4596-A63D-BD4235668ED1@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> As this is the second email I've received reminding me of the kwiki  
> version I'll post my explanation now

i as reminding the group, not you specifically.  and it's my bad  
anyway.  it's christian brink's (anyone remember him? :) server, but  
i run that portion of it.  updating kwiki is on my list ...

r


From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Nov 30 11:55:29 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:55:29 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <9828DEBB-0CE0-4E85-A36D-2DAE0D9AD4D1@sonofhans.net>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
	<9828DEBB-0CE0-4E85-A36D-2DAE0D9AD4D1@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <CC4B51DB-1ED6-4ECB-9E09-861EB99BE6A5@ohsu.edu>

With Kwiki 0.38 things seem to have changed.
0 one
0 two
** sub two
** sub two too
0 three ?

gives:
one
two
sub two
sub two too
three ?

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Randall Hansen wrote:

> On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:00 AM, Thomas J Keller wrote:
>
>> I've installed Kwiki.pm and like it a lot. But I'd like to use
>> ordered lists, and I don't get how to get the automatic numbering to
>> work.
>
> it used to be that you could start the first item of a list with a 0,
> then use bullets for the rest, and it would all be ordered.  no
> more:  they all have to be zeros.  in Kwiki .38:
>
> 0 one
> 00 one
> 00 two
> 000 one
> 000 two
> 00 three
> 0 two
>
> 1. one
> 	1. one
> 	2. two
> 		1. one
> 		2. two
> 	3. three
> 2. two
>
> r
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

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From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Nov 30 13:11:38 2005
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:11:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question about data structures and stacks and
	recursion
Message-ID: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>


I am not looking for a solution on the list, just a pointer to the
right documentation with examples.

I realize that if I copy references in an array or hash, I get a
reference to data, not a separate copy of the data.

I want to build a recursive subroutine for exploring a branching
decision tree, and I would like to glom together a bunch of scalars,
arrays, and hashes into a data structure of some kind and push them
onto a stack at the beginning of a routine, and pop them off after.
I can probably cobble up something cheesy, but I would prefer to
pull the right thing off CPAN or use the proper 5 line technique. 
The data are about 600 elements, the stack might go 10 deep, and I
won't be doing it very often, if that helps scale the problem. 

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 13:32:51 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:32:51 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question about data structures and stacks and
	recursion
In-Reply-To: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200511301332.51259.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Keith Lofstrom
# on Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:11 pm:

>I want to build a recursive subroutine for exploring a branching
>decision tree, and I would like to glom together a bunch of scalars,
>arrays, and hashes into a data structure of some kind and push them
>onto a stack at the beginning of a routine, and pop them off after.

I've never seen a really good way to abstract this out into a reusable 
form, so I always end up rewriting the recursion stuff around whatever 
algorithm.  Unfortunately, HOP is not available online yet.

  http://hop.perl.plover.com/chap01.html

In any case, if you're reusing recursion code, you'll have to give it a 
callback for each node on the tree (ala File::Find IIRC.)  Do any of 
these work that way?

  http://search.cpan.org/modlist/Data_and_Data_Types/Tree

Or maybe something instructive in Data::Dumper (if there's a pure perl 
version in there anywhere.)

And I would have hoped that this at least had some kind of callback in 
it.

  http://search.cpan.org/~jnolan/Data-Walker-1.05/Data/Walker.pm

So, which module has the  the walk($data, {callback => sub {...}, 
array_callback => sub {...}, ... }) routine?

--Eric
-- 
"It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are 
in a hurry."
--Ralph's Observation
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Nov 30 13:34:27 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:34:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] silly kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <CC4B51DB-1ED6-4ECB-9E09-861EB99BE6A5@ohsu.edu>
References: <0B03C130-6A2E-4875-80CD-4A4CF272C286@ohsu.edu>
	<9828DEBB-0CE0-4E85-A36D-2DAE0D9AD4D1@sonofhans.net>
	<CC4B51DB-1ED6-4ECB-9E09-861EB99BE6A5@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <8A5B2331-D2E6-4CB8-9EFB-D031FF50C7FC@sonofhans.net>

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:55 AM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> With Kwiki 0.38 things seem to have changed.
> 0 one
> 0 two
> ** sub two
> ** sub two too
> 0 three ?
>
> gives:
> one
> two
> sub two
> sub two too
> three ?

yes, you can no longer nest different types of lists.  pity.  i'm  
sure this is something that could be hacked in.  much of Kwiki and  
its dependencies is very dense, abstract, and idiomatic code.  the  
actual formatting bits are pretty transparent, though.

r


From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Nov 30 13:38:27 2005
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:38:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question about data structures and stacks and
 recursion
In-Reply-To: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <0A7DFB99-230C-4301-A508-2EC36C7D92E1@ohsu.edu>

By chance I was looking at Mastering Algorithms with Perl by Orwant  
et al and he has a section on Heaps: "an interesting variation on a  
binary tree. They're good for (1) finding and removing the smallest  
item in a collection amd (2) adding additional elements to the  
collection"
The relevant section is in ch3. The book is available on line via  
O'Reilly's Safari site.

Tom K

On Nov 30, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

>
> I am not looking for a solution on the list, just a pointer to the
> right documentation with examples.
>
> I realize that if I copy references in an array or hash, I get a
> reference to data, not a separate copy of the data.
>
> I want to build a recursive subroutine for exploring a branching
> decision tree, and I would like to glom together a bunch of scalars,
> arrays, and hashes into a data structure of some kind and push them
> onto a stack at the beginning of a routine, and pop them off after.
> I can probably cobble up something cheesy, but I would prefer to
> pull the right thing off CPAN or use the proper 5 line technique.
> The data are about 600 elements, the stack might go 10 deep, and I
> won't be doing it very often, if that helps scale the problem.
>
> Keith
>
> -- 
> Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in  
> Silicon"
> Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



From krisb at ring.org  Wed Nov 30 13:55:19 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:55:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question about data structures and stacks and
 recursion
In-Reply-To: <20051130211138.GA16711@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0511301352180.16047-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> I realize that if I copy references in an array or hash, I get a
> reference to data, not a separate copy of the data.
>
> I want to build a recursive subroutine for exploring a branching
> decision tree, and I would like to glom together a bunch of scalars,
> arrays, and hashes into a data structure of some kind and push them
> onto a stack at the beginning of a routine, and pop them off after.

	Keith, do you really need to copy the entire structure?
Also, do you plan to have objects in the structure?

Randal has a deep_copy subroutine here:

http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/UnixReview/col30.html

-Kris


From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Nov 30 14:51:55 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:51:55 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
Message-ID: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>

December Meeting
Wednesday, December 14th, 2005 6:30pm at Free Geek, 1741 SE 10th Ave

>From the Kwiki:

Any Perlish or geekish lecture, rant, speech, poem, droll witticism, or
(hopefully) constructive criticism that you can fit into N MINUTES
(where N usually equals 5, 8, 10 or 15).

Sign up on the kwiki:
http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PortlandPerlMongers

J

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 15:40:59 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:40:59 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
References: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Josh Heumann
# on Wednesday 30 November 2005 02:51 pm:

>Sign up on the kwiki:
>http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PortlandPerlMongers

Yeah, wiki isn't a stone tablet, but thought I would ask the list first 
how much interest there is in hearing or heckling any or all of the 
following:

  Perl Test Juggler
  stupid svk tricks
  python-style class/instance variable accessors in Perl
  fun with require()able scripts
  recent war-stories from the uber-converter
  symlinked lib/ and bin/ trees
  reloader - a konqueror (or maybe more generic) refresh daemon

--Eric
-- 
"Because understanding simplicity is complicated."
--Eric Raymond
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 30 15:57:47 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:57:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <20051130235747.71846.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> December Meeting
> Wednesday, December 14th, 2005 6:30pm at Free Geek, 1741 SE 10th Ave
> 
> >From the Kwiki:
> 
> Any Perlish or geekish lecture, rant, speech, poem, droll witticism,
> or
> (hopefully) constructive criticism that you can fit into N MINUTES
> (where N usually equals 5, 8, 10 or 15).

Well, rather than just sign up, like Eric I'll ask if anyone has any
interest in hearing about the latest news from the Perl Foundation.  We
actually get stuff done but we've not been good at blowing our own
horn.  That is going to change (in fact, it already has, but some of
the exciting news is for Andy Lester to crow about.  He's our PR
person).

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From bryce at osdl.org  Wed Nov 30 16:03:02 2005
From: bryce at osdl.org (Bryce Harrington)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:03:02 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
	<200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051201000301.GA24878@osdl.org>

On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 03:40:59PM -0800, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from Josh Heumann
> # on Wednesday 30 November 2005 02:51 pm:
> 
> >Sign up on the kwiki:
> >http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PortlandPerlMongers
> 
> Yeah, wiki isn't a stone tablet, but thought I would ask the list first 
> how much interest there is in hearing or heckling any or all of the 
> following:
> 
>   Perl Test Juggler
>   stupid svk tricks
>   python-style class/instance variable accessors in Perl
>   fun with require()able scripts
>   recent war-stories from the uber-converter
>   symlinked lib/ and bin/ trees
>   reloader - a konqueror (or maybe more generic) refresh daemon

I hadn't planned on attending, but if you talked about uber-converter
war stories I'd definitely need to come.  ;-)

Bryce

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Nov 30 16:02:27 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:02:27 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
	<200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <20051201000227.GC4472@patch.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Yeah, wiki isn't a stone tablet, but thought I would ask the list first 
>   reloader - a konqueror (or maybe more generic) refresh daemon

and Ovid's Foundation News are at the top of my favorites list.

-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/
  The fortune cookie says:
If reporters don't know that truth is plural, they ought to be lawyers.
		-- Tom Wicker


From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Wed Nov 30 16:11:37 2005
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:11:37 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
Message-ID: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297C4F@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>   recent war-stories from the uber-converter

War stories!  War stories!

Ovid wrote:
> Well, rather than just sign up, like Eric I'll ask if anyone has any
> interest in hearing about the latest news from the Perl 
> Foundation.

Yes please!

- gabrielle - 
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 16:23:37 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:23:37 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20051201001652.78879.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051201001652.78879.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200511301623.37412.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Ovid
# on Wednesday 30 November 2005 04:16 pm:

>>I'll ask if anyone has any
>>interest in hearing about the latest news from the Perl Foundation.

>Yes.

>> And traits, but I won't twist your arm.
>
>I'd love to chat about traits, but I don't think that I can fit that
>into a lightning talk :/

But that's the point!  I don't have time for the long version :-)

  http://portland.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PortlandPerlMongers

I've started listing some things here just to get them out of ram.  
Rather than rattle sabers on the wiki, the list would still be a better 
spot.

--Eric
-- 
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it."
--Donald Knuth
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 16:34:46 2005
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:34:46 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20051201000301.GA24878@osdl.org>
References: <20051130225154.GA19899@joshheumann.com>
	<200511301540.59505.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<20051201000301.GA24878@osdl.org>
Message-ID: <200511301634.46784.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Bryce Harrington
# on Wednesday 30 November 2005 04:03 pm:

>I hadn't planned on attending, but if you talked about uber-converter
>war stories I'd definitely need to come. ?;-)

As long as you aren't looking forward to gossipy details about contract 
negotiations and what-not.

The "war" has much more to do with fighting the C++ devil-baby binary 
format than battling historical revisionist misrepresentations of 
Nietzsche.

--Eric
-- 
"It works better if you plug it in!"
--Sattinger's Law
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 30 16:50:14 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:50:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20051201000227.GC4472@patch.com>
Message-ID: <20051201005014.40169.qmail@web60816.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com> wrote:

> and Ovid's Foundation News are at the top of my favorites list.

OK.  I'll do that and a *brief* explanation of why you should consider
Class::Trait instead of MI or mixins.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/