From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  1 10:18:47 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:18:47 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
Message-ID: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>

Greets,

I usually start out on a module project using h2xs to create the  
basic files (I always have to go look up the exact command line  
syntax in Randal's book on Modules).  Since this isn't something i do  
every day, it's nice to feel confident that I haven't forgotten  
anything, and all I need to do is edit a template until nothing is  
wrong.

With Schwern advocating so aggressively for Module::Build, I figured  
I'd migrate away from MakeMaker.  But skimming through the  
Module::Build docs and the Module::Build::Cookbook, I don't see  
anything analogous to the h2xs command.  If it's there and I didn't  
see it, forgive me... if not, how about a one-liner, specified in the  
Module::Build docs, that I can go back to time and again?

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From chromatic at wgz.org  Fri Jul  1 11:03:41 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 10:18 -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> With Schwern advocating so aggressively for Module::Build, I figured  
> I'd migrate away from MakeMaker.  But skimming through the  
> Module::Build docs and the Module::Build::Cookbook, I don't see  
> anything analogous to the h2xs command.  If it's there and I didn't  
> see it, forgive me... if not, how about a one-liner, specified in the  
> Module::Build docs, that I can go back to time and again?

Module::Starter's module-starter command may help.  I haven't tried it,
but it looks very handy.

Best,
-- c


From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  1 11:11:58 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Uncaught bounce notification
Message-ID: <20050701181158.34451.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I just started receiving these, but I don't know how to respond to
this.  Can anyone tell me what this means and what, if anything, should
be done about this?

Cheers,
Ovid

--- mailman-bounces at pm.org wrote:

> Subject: Uncaught bounce notification
> From: mailman-bounces at pm.org
> To: pdx-pm-list-owner at pm.org
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:04:10 -0700
> 
> The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
> format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
> from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
> unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
> 
> For more information see:
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/admin/pdx-pm-list/bounce
> 
> > Date: 01 Jul 2005 13:04:02 -0500
> To: pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org
> From: <postmaster at netbsa.org>
> Subject: SPAMCOP blocked IP = [63.251.223.186]
> 
> Your email server is listed on the SpamCop Relay Black List (RBL).
> Boy Scouts of America does not accept email from machines listed on
> the SpamCop RBL service.  Please have your System Administrator go to
> http://spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&amp;ip=[63.251.223.186] for
> more information or resend your email from a different email
> system/account.
> 
> >From pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org Fri Jul 01 13:04:01 2005
> X-IronPort-RCPT-TO: hhoult at cpcbsa.org
> Received: from x6.develooper.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
> 	by x6.develooper.com (Postfix) with ESMTP
> 	id 415BE1779F; Fri,  1 Jul 2005 11:03:59 -0700 (PDT)
> Delivered-To: mailman-pdx-pm-list at mailman.pm.dev
> Received: (qmail 2199 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 18:03:56
> -0000
> Received: from x1a.develooper.com (HELO x1.develooper.com)
> (216.52.237.111)
> 	by lists.develooper.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 18:03:56 -0000
> Received: (qmail 17160 invoked by uid 225); 1 Jul 2005 18:03:56 -0000
> Delivered-To: pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> Delivered-To: pdx-pm-list at mail.pm.org
> Received: (qmail 17154 invoked by alias); 1 Jul 2005 18:03:55 -0000
> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=8.0
> 	tests=BAYES_00
> X-Spam-Check-By: la.mx.develooper.com
> Received-SPF: pass (x1.develooper.com: domain of chromatic at wgz.org
> designates
> 	129.95.36.103 as permitted sender)
> Received: from Unknown (HELO snafu.wgz.com) (129.95.36.103)
> 	by la.mx.develooper.com (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP;
> 	Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:03:53 -0700
> Received: from localhost (snafu [127.0.0.1])
> 	by snafu.wgz.com (Postfix) with ESMTP
> 	id E521F2337B; Fri,  1 Jul 2005 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from snafu.wgz.com ([127.0.0.1])
> 	by localhost (snafu.wgz.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new,
> 	port 10024) with ESMTP
> 	id 20830-10; Fri,  1 Jul 2005 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from [192.168.1.29] (sub17-30.member.dsl-only.net
> [63.105.17.30])
> 	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
> 	(No client certificate requested)
> 	by snafu.wgz.com (Postfix) with ESMTP
> 	id 330A02334E; Fri,  1 Jul 2005 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
> From: chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org>
> To: Marvin Humphrey <marvin at rectangular.com>
> In-Reply-To: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE at rectangular.com>
> References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE at rectangular.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:03:41 -0700
> Message-Id: <1120241021.2796.15.camel at localhost>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.1.1 
> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wgz.org
> Cc: "pdx.pm" <pdx-pm-list at mail.pm.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
> X-BeenThere: pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: <pdx-pm-list.pm.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list>,
> 	<mailto:pdx-pm-list-request at pm.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> List-Archive: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list>
> List-Post: <mailto:pdx-pm-list at pm.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:pdx-pm-list-request at pm.org?subject=help>
> List-Subscribe: <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list>,
> 	<mailto:pdx-pm-list-request at pm.org?subject=subscribe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sender: pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org
> Errors-To: pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org
> 


-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul  1 12:26:41 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:26:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# chromatic
# on Friday 01 July 2005 11:03 am:

>> From Marvin:
>> ?If it's there and I didn't ?see it, forgive me... if not, 
>> ?how about a one-liner, specified in 
>> the ? Module::Build docs, that I can go back to time and again?

I think it just got added to Module::Build::Authoring in 1.9.

>Module::Starter's module-starter command may help. ?I haven't tried
> it, but it looks very handy.

It works.  There were some minor bugs in the test generation (did the 
fixes get released yet?)  I'm still digging on it when I get the chance 
trying to figure out how to get a customized template setup and maybe 
some hooks for version control.

There has recently been some work by John Peacock on an XS setup with 
M:B and M:S.

--Eric
-- 
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
-- Charles Darwin
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 15:06:44 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:06:44 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 12:26:41PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> I think it just got added to Module::Build::Authoring in 1.9.

Yeah, its in the alpha version.
http://search.cpan.org/~kwilliams/Module-Build-0.27_01/lib/Module/Build/Authoring.pod

But it talks almost exclusively about the various detailed things you can
do in Build.PL and not about basic things like where your modules and tests
go.  For that sort of information the best source at the moment is probably
to adapt from ExtUtils::MakeMaker::Tutorial.
http://search.cpan.org/dist/ExtUtils-MakeMaker/lib/ExtUtils/MakeMaker/Tutorial.pod

I honestly don't bother with things like h2xs (especially h2xs) because
their templates tend to make things seem WAY more complicated than they
really are by providing "fill in the blanks" for all sorts of stuff you're
unlikely to need.  I think h2xs has contributed greatly to the "writing
modules is hard" myth.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 15:12:05 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:12:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Uncaught bounce notification
In-Reply-To: <20050701181158.34451.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050701181158.34451.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050701221205.GH29018@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 11:11:58AM -0700, Ovid wrote:
> I just started receiving these, but I don't know how to respond to
> this.  Can anyone tell me what this means and what, if anything, should
> be done about this?

Yet another blacklist (SpamCop this time) has inexplicably blacklisted 
develooper.com (which handles perl.org).  This is why you never rely on 
just one blacklist.

I'll let Ask and Robrt know.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
	-- Phillip K. Dick

From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  1 16:09:39 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:09:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <D68AF75A-58C5-44A5-879C-38EF31B5F095@rectangular.com>

Chromatic writes...
 > Module::Starter's module-starter command may help.  I haven't  
tried it,
 > but it looks very handy.

Thanks, that's just what I was looking for.  I now see that it's  
linked to in the documentation for perlnewmod.  It's just a weird  
butterfly effect from how I learned to write modules that I didn't  
find it.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  1 16:10:05 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:10:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>

Schwern writes:
> I honestly don't bother with things like h2xs (especially h2xs)  
> because
> their templates tend to make things seem WAY more complicated than  
> they
> really are by providing "fill in the blanks" for all sorts of stuff  
> you're
> unlikely to need.  I think h2xs has contributed greatly to the  
> "writing
> modules is hard" myth.

Hmm.

Shouldn't writing modules, at least for CPAN, be a _little_ hard, or  
more precisely, a little involved?  How much of the stuff that comes  
out of h2xs or module-starter is fluff?  Finding stuff on CPAN is  
already pretty annoying, because there are so many half-assed modules  
with inadequate documentation, tests, commenting, etc.

I _like_ the idea that module writers who fail to alter the stub  
documentation open themselves to ridicule.

http://search.cpan.org/search?query=blah+blah+blah

In fact, I'd like to see Pod::Coverage, and maybe Test::Coverage  
results integrated into the search interface.  Filter my results to  
eliminate garbage like this, please:

http://search.cpan.org/~sburke/Pod-Simple-3.02/lib/Pod/Simple/HTML.pm
http://search.cpan.org/~simon/Plucene-SearchEngine-1.1/lib/Plucene/ 
SearchEngine.pm

As someone who takes documentation and QC seriously, I appreciate  
having a template prepared for me that errs on the side of excess.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul  1 16:12:06 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:12:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507011612.07105.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# Michael G Schwern
# on Friday 01 July 2005 03:06 pm:

>On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 12:26:41PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> I think it just got added to Module::Build::Authoring in 1.9.
>
>Yeah, its in the alpha version.
>http://search.cpan.org/~kwilliams/Module-Build-0.27_01/lib/Module/Buil
>d/Authoring.pod

Er.  Yeah.  I'm just going off of whatever CVS dumped on me.

>But it talks almost exclusively about the various detailed things you
> can do in Build.PL and not about basic things like where your modules
> and tests go.

Hmm.  Maybe we (them) need a Module::Newbie pod.

>I honestly don't bother with things like h2xs (especially h2xs)
> because their templates tend to make things seem WAY more complicated
> than they really are by providing "fill in the blanks" for all sorts
> of stuff you're unlikely to need.

That's part of why I'm trying to dig more into Module::Starter.  The 
"I'm too lazy to write pod" default that h2xs gives is kind of annoying 
to have to delete, etc., but then mkdir -p path/to/My/, mkdir .., vi 
path/to/My/Module.pm is kind of a patternish sequence and I typically 
do get bit by the "did not return a true value" complaint when I start 
from scratch and forget to drop the 1 on the eof.

> I think h2xs has contributed 
> greatly to the "writing modules is hard" myth.

I can't find it now, but I distinctly remember reading something like 
"Always start with h2xs.\n"x3 in some documentation or other (was it in 
the camel book?)

--Eric
-- 
"...our schools have been scientifically designed to
prevent overeducation from happening."
--William Troy Harris
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 16:41:42 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:41:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 04:10:05PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> Shouldn't writing modules, at least for CPAN, be a _little_ hard, or  
> more precisely, a little involved?

No, why should it?


> As someone who takes documentation and QC seriously, I appreciate  
> having a template prepared for me that errs on the side of excess.

This I don't understand.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 16:48:34 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:48:34 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <200507011612.07105.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507011612.07105.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050701234834.GC781@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 04:12:06PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> >But it talks almost exclusively about the various detailed things you
> > can do in Build.PL and not about basic things like where your modules
> > and tests go.
> 
> Hmm.  Maybe we (them) need a Module::Newbie pod.

The authoring docs need to be finished, for starters.  The original plan
was, I think, to break the docs down into:

Basic module installation
Advanced module installation
Basic module authoring
Advanced module authoring
Extending Module::Build

I've been planning on restructuring MakeMaker's docs along the same lines as 
soon as I get a dump truck of motiviation to do so.


> > I think h2xs has contributed 
> > greatly to the "writing modules is hard" myth.
> 
> I can't find it now, but I distinctly remember reading something like 
> "Always start with h2xs.\n"x3 in some documentation or other (was it in 
> the camel book?)

Those were the first lines of the ExtUtils::MakeMaker "How To Write A 
Makefile.PL" documentation.

     How To Write A Makefile.PL

     The short answer is: Don't.

             Always begin with h2xs.
             Always begin with h2xs!
             ALWAYS BEGIN WITH H2XS!

     even if you're not building around a header file, and even if you don't
     have an XS component.

I blame that for much of the confusion surrounding writing a module for
so long both because it lead the user to view the overly complicated h2xs
templates as being necessary and because it meant the MakeMaker docs never 
felt the need to have a simple Makefile.PL tutorial.

I cleaved it from the docs about two years ago.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
	-- Phillip K. Dick

From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  1 17:40:52 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:40:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>

On Jul 1, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 04:10:05PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
>> Shouldn't writing modules, at least for CPAN, be a _little_ hard, or
>> more precisely, a little involved?
>
> No, why should it?

Because figuring out which modules are worth a damn is already time- 
consuming, and making it easier for people to contribute  
undocumented, untested crap makes it that much harder to pull the  
signal out of the noise.

But maybe I can solve this s/n problem another way.  I'm close to  
finishing a new version of Kinosearch.  Seems like time grows ripe to  
build another CPAN search engine.  Maybe we can get to a happy place  
where it's both easy to contribute and easy for prospective users to  
assess the quality of the contribution.

>> As someone who takes documentation and QC seriously, I appreciate
>> having a template prepared for me that errs on the side of excess.
>
> This I don't understand.

I don't find it burdensome to delete a couple lines of "I'm too lazy  
to write POD" POD, because I'm going to spend a *lot* more time  
writing good POD to replace it than it takes to hit the 'd' key a  
dozen times in vim.  I'm going to check the module and its associated  
files over several times to make sure nothing's missing before I  
publish.

The time that it takes me to clear out unnecessary template material  
is inconsequential compared to the amount of time it takes me to do  
the job right.  It is much harder to scan through a distro saying  
"looks good, looks good, oops looks wrong better fix that", then it  
is to scan through a distro saying "is anything missing, is anything  
missing, is anything missing".

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  1 18:05:00 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:05:00 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>


I wrote:

> It is much harder to scan through a distro saying
> "looks good, looks good, oops looks wrong better fix that", then it
> is to scan through a distro saying "is anything missing, is anything
> missing, is anything missing".

Oops looks wrong better fix that.

It is much *easier* to scan through a distro saying, "looks good,  
looks good, oops looks wrong better fix that", than it is to scan  
through a distro saying "is anything missing, is anything missing, is  
anything missing".

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 19:06:39 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:06:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 05:40:52PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> > No, why should it?
> 
> Because figuring out which modules are worth a damn is already time- 
> consuming, and making it easier for people to contribute  
> undocumented, untested crap makes it that much harder to pull the  
> signal out of the noise.

Slowing the flow of modules to CPAN is not the way to do that espcially if
its slowed by having to know some mysterious module creation mantra.  That
does not select for the best authors but for the ones that slog through the
lore to discover what the mantra is.

I've seen a lot of excellent code that was not put on CPAN because either
A) they thought it was a difficult thing to do or B) they thought putting
code on CPAN was something "special" and that nobody would be interested
in their module.

Remember, CPAN is the *Comprehensive* Perl Archive Network which means you
get the good and the bad.  Often by trying to filter out the bad we've lost
the good.  Its better to just gather everything together and filter from
there.

And then, of course, its a matter of opinion what's good and bad which is
the overriding reason why there are no restrictions on what goes onto CPAN.


> >> As someone who takes documentation and QC seriously, I appreciate
> >> having a template prepared for me that errs on the side of excess.
> >
> > This I don't understand.
> 
> I don't find it burdensome to delete a couple lines of "I'm too lazy  
> to write POD" POD, because I'm going to spend a *lot* more time  
> writing good POD to replace it than it takes to hit the 'd' key a  
> dozen times in vim.  I'm going to check the module and its associated  
> files over several times to make sure nothing's missing before I  
> publish.

If you're going to delete it why have it there in the first place?


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  1 19:11:52 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:11:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 06:05:00PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> It is much *easier* to scan through a distro saying, "looks good,  
> looks good, oops looks wrong better fix that", than it is to scan  
> through a distro saying "is anything missing, is anything missing, is  
> anything missing".

Humans might be able to eyeball "looks good" but try to teach a computer
to figure that out.  You can't eyeball all of CPAN.  Its much easier to 
teach a computer to recognize if something is missing than if something 
"looks good".  h2xs' ubiquity and uniformity just gives you a crib to give 
you one possible "looks bad" but you're not really checking to see if 
something is "good".

For example, its easier to look for the lack of POD than to see if its
poor documentation.  Tools such as Pod::Coverage take advantage of this.
Its easier to look for no tests, or poorly covering tests, than for "good"
tests.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
ROCKS FALL! EVERYONE DIES!
	http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul  1 21:36:06 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:36:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507012136.07003.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# Michael G Schwern
# on Friday 01 July 2005 07:06 pm:

>Slowing the flow of modules to CPAN is not the way to do that
> ...
>I've seen a lot of excellent code that was not put on CPAN because
> either A) they thought it was a difficult thing to do or B) they
> thought putting code on CPAN was something "special" and that nobody
> would be interested in their module.

There are conflicting opinions about this on the module-authors list.  
My personal approach since I started using subversion is to just dump 
my new stuff into my subversion repository and worry about getting it 
on CPAN when it's good enough (and when I get an automated release 
process so that publishing 17 distributions doesn't take a week (though 
that may be the case from QC anyway.))

>Remember, CPAN is the *Comprehensive* Perl Archive Network which means
> you get the good and the bad. ?Often by trying to filter out the bad
> we've lost the good. ?Its better to just gather everything together
> and filter from there.

So, let's do svn.perl.org and hook kinosearch to it right?  Then all you 
need is a pause id (maybe a script could get you one of those 
automatically (or at least hold your hand and walk you through it)) and 
to run module-starter with the defaults (or a version thereof) to 
automagically have your new module published and under version control.

--Eric
-- 
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it."
--Donald Knuth
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Jul  2 01:52:11 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:52:11 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <200507012136.07003.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507012136.07003.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050702085211.GA4539@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 09:36:06PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> >I've seen a lot of excellent code that was not put on CPAN because
> > either A) they thought it was a difficult thing to do or B) they
> > thought putting code on CPAN was something "special" and that nobody
> > would be interested in their module.
> 
> There are conflicting opinions about this on the module-authors list.  
> My personal approach since I started using subversion is to just dump 
> my new stuff into my subversion repository and worry about getting it 
> on CPAN when it's good enough (and when I get an automated release 
> process so that publishing 17 distributions doesn't take a week (though 
> that may be the case from QC anyway.))

Attached is the little release program I use.  Its pretty trivial and uses
the cpan-upload program.
http://search.cpan.org/dist/cpan-upload/

There's also Module::Release which can do things like upload to PAUSE,
check into CVS, upload to SourceForge.
http://search.cpan.org/~bdfoy/release/


> >Remember, CPAN is the *Comprehensive* Perl Archive Network which means
> > you get the good and the bad. ?Often by trying to filter out the bad
> > we've lost the good. ?Its better to just gather everything together
> > and filter from there.
> 
> So, let's do svn.perl.org and hook kinosearch to it right?  Then all you 
> need is a pause id (maybe a script could get you one of those 
> automatically (or at least hold your hand and walk you through it)) and 
> to run module-starter with the defaults (or a version thereof) to 
> automagically have your new module published and under version control.

svn.perl.org is already available and folks can request a repository there
but I don't really see how this solves the problem of making a module.
You still need to roll releases and upload them to PAUSE.  You still need
to create the Build.PL/Makefile.PL, tests and library layout.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!
-------------- next part --------------
#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use File::Copy;

sub run {
    system(@_) == 0 or exit $? >> 8;
}

run("perl Makefile.PL");  # XXX Add SIGN=1 once key restored.
run("make disttest");
run("make dist");

my @tarballs = glob("*.tar.gz");
die "More than one tarball" if @tarballs > 1;
die "No tarball?" if @tarballs == 0;

my $dist = $tarballs[0];

run("cpan-upload -verbose $dist");
run("scp $dist mungus.schwern.org:~/www/src/");
move($dist, "$ENV{HOME}/releases/");

From marvin at rectangular.com  Sat Jul  2 14:52:21 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:52:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702020639.GA2692@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <9ADDBDCF-547E-4E5F-A1D7-A39A269A43AA@rectangular.com>


On Jul 1, 2005, at 7:06 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Slowing the flow of modules to CPAN is not the way to do that  
> espcially if
> its slowed by having to know some mysterious module creation  
> mantra.  That
> does not select for the best authors but for the ones that slog  
> through the
> lore to discover what the mantra is.

True.  I am recalling how confusing I found it to prepare my first  
distro.  It didn't help that I was contemplating a multi-module  
distribution right off the bat.

> I've seen a lot of excellent code that was not put on CPAN because  
> either
> A) they thought it was a difficult thing to do or B) they thought  
> putting
> code on CPAN was something "special" and that nobody would be  
> interested
> in their module.
>
> Remember, CPAN is the *Comprehensive* Perl Archive Network which  
> means you
> get the good and the bad.  Often by trying to filter out the bad  
> we've lost
> the good.  Its better to just gather everything together and filter  
> from
> there.

Agreed.

Since I consider undocumented code worthless and poorly documented  
code to be a timesuck I can't afford, I'd prefer never to see  
inadequately documented contributions in my search results.  I have  
similar opinions about code with no tests at all.  However, if a  
search-time filter can be constructed to weed out stuff like that,  
then there's not as much to be lost by relaxing expectations, and if  
that gets some people over the hump and turns them into contributors,  
they may well end up contributing valuable material down the line.

I can also see that the punitive approach of ridiculing poor  
documentation has a downside, in that it may intimidate potential  
contributors.  If rewarding good documentation were as effective, it  
would be better to go that route.

>>>> As someone who takes documentation and QC seriously, I appreciate
>>>> having a template prepared for me that errs on the side of excess.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This I don't understand.
>>>
>>
>> I don't find it burdensome to delete a couple lines of "I'm too lazy
>> to write POD" POD, because I'm going to spend a *lot* more time
>> writing good POD to replace it than it takes to hit the 'd' key a
>> dozen times in vim.  I'm going to check the module and its associated
>> files over several times to make sure nothing's missing before I
>> publish.
>
> If you're going to delete it why have it there in the first place?

It's a "placeholder".

What's hard to understand about that?  It's not like I'm the only  
person who finds starting from a template more convenient that  
starting from an empty directory.  Grokking a template imparts  
confidence that you've grokked the totality of the problem.  When  
trying to follow the path you advocate away from the MakeMaker system  
I'd already learned and was comfortable with, I went looking for a  
Module::Build template to work from, because I figured that if I  
could understand and edit every part of the template, I'd have done  
everything that absolutely had to be done.  When I couldn't find the  
procedure for creating such a template anywhere in the Module::Build  
docs, I almost threw in the towel and went back to MakeMaker.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From marvin at rectangular.com  Sat Jul  2 15:08:26 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:08:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <E3DC9C6B-8487-4838-B1CE-C98ABBC09BD5@rectangular.com>


On Jul 1, 2005, at 7:11 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 06:05:00PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
>> It is much *easier* to scan through a distro saying, "looks good,
>> looks good, oops looks wrong better fix that", than it is to scan
>> through a distro saying "is anything missing, is anything missing, is
>> anything missing".
>>
>
> Humans might be able to eyeball "looks good" but try to teach a  
> computer
> to figure that out.  You can't eyeball all of CPAN.

I'm talking about eyeballing my _own_ distro.  If I see "Module  
Version Goes Here", I'll remember that I have to edit that text.  If  
it's not there, there's a chance I'll forget to include a version  
number.

It's easy to spot when something is blatantly wrong.
It's hard to spot when something is missing.

> Its much easier to
> teach a computer to recognize if something is missing than if  
> something
> "looks good".  h2xs' ubiquity and uniformity just gives you a crib  
> to give
> you one possible "looks bad" but you're not really checking to see if
> something is "good".

I doubt I'll ever use h2xs again, now that I've been introduced to  
module-starter.  I could never remember the command line options to  
prevent h2xs from thinking I wanted to link in a C library.

What would you like to see expunged from the module-starter-created  
template?

The thing that seems vestigial to me, at least for pure Perl modules,  
is the README file.  If dependencies and synopses can be found in the  
POD, there isn't much point to duplicating that info in a README.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From schwern at pobox.com  Sat Jul  2 15:28:23 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:28:23 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <E3DC9C6B-8487-4838-B1CE-C98ABBC09BD5@rectangular.com>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E3DC9C6B-8487-4838-B1CE-C98ABBC09BD5@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20050702222823.GA15762@windhund.schwern.org>

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:08:26PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> I'm talking about eyeballing my _own_ distro.  If I see "Module  
> Version Goes Here", I'll remember that I have to edit that text.  If  
> it's not there, there's a chance I'll forget to include a version  
> number.
> 
> It's easy to spot when something is blatantly wrong.
> It's hard to spot when something is missing.

Ahh.  Humans shouldn't do rote tasks, they suck at them.  That sort of
thing is easily automatable IF you don't clutter up your module with
stubs.


> What would you like to see expunged from the module-starter-created  
> template?

Dunno, never used it.


> The thing that seems vestigial to me, at least for pure Perl modules,  
> is the README file.  If dependencies and synopses can be found in the  
> POD, there isn't much point to duplicating that info in a README.

I've long held that duplicating the POD in the README is worthless.  Its
even more worthless now that we have search.cpan.org and you can look
at a module's POD without downloading it.

Long ago I took a stab at writing a useful README generator.  Something that 
said what the module does, is good for and how to install it.  This included 
its dependencies.  Basically it generated a list of module dependencies from
PREREQ_PM along with the minimum Perl version and URLs to find Perl and CPAN.  
It also look for any XS files to see if a C compiler was necessary and 
mentioned that.  It then showed the usual "perl Makefile.PL; ..." mantra 
along with instructions about how to install outside the usual location 
(ie. PREFIX).  Finally it slapped in the NAME, SYNOPSIS and first paragraph
of the DESCRIPTION.

Module::Build has its own create_readme() function but it, I think, simply
copies the docs.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From david at kineticode.com  Sun Jul  3 10:20:12 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 10:20:12 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050702222823.GA15762@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <A1686255-0758-463A-A792-AEDF9DD148DE@rectangular.com>
	<1120241021.2796.15.camel@localhost>
	<200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E3DC9C6B-8487-4838-B1CE-C98ABBC09BD5@rectangular.com>
	<20050702222823.GA15762@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <3FD75F76-27F3-480E-A5F0-26FA229EA89E@kineticode.com>

On Jul 2, 2005, at 3:28 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Module::Build has its own create_readme() function but it, I think,  
> simply
> copies the docs.

It does. You might find Pod::Readme useful, though. But your stab  
sounds better, Michael. Whatever happened to it?

Best,

David

From schwern at pobox.com  Sun Jul  3 14:51:00 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:51:00 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <3FD75F76-27F3-480E-A5F0-26FA229EA89E@kineticode.com>
References: <200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050701220644.GG29018@windhund.schwern.org>
	<0B714535-04AF-4F2C-9510-A0728B42A59C@rectangular.com>
	<20050701234142.GB781@windhund.schwern.org>
	<F99235C2-6B92-4EA1-8C8D-F0F68B77372A@rectangular.com>
	<E2F8B81D-9401-4B8F-817B-91811303AB9A@rectangular.com>
	<20050702021152.GB2692@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E3DC9C6B-8487-4838-B1CE-C98ABBC09BD5@rectangular.com>
	<20050702222823.GA15762@windhund.schwern.org>
	<3FD75F76-27F3-480E-A5F0-26FA229EA89E@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <20050703215059.GE23515@windhund.schwern.org>

On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 10:20:12AM -0700, David Wheeler wrote:
> It does. You might find Pod::Readme useful, though. But your stab  
> sounds better, Michael. Whatever happened to it?

Lost in one of many hard drive crashes.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jul  3 16:07:11 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:07:11 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050703215059.GE23515@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <200507011226.41411.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<3FD75F76-27F3-480E-A5F0-26FA229EA89E@kineticode.com>
	<20050703215059.GE23515@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507031607.11091.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# Michael G Schwern
# on Sunday 03 July 2005 02:51 pm:

>On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 10:20:12AM -0700, David Wheeler wrote:
>> It does. You might find Pod::Readme useful, though. But your stab ?
>> sounds better, Michael. Whatever happened to it?
>
>Lost in one of many hard drive crashes.

And here I thought he was holding out :-)

The Pod::Readme did sound useful, though in need of some improvement or 
customize-ability.  It's on my to-notdo list to come up with a system 
that uses pod to create all of the documentation, but of course there 
are things (as you mentioned) that could be put in the README 
automatically.

--Eric
-- 
"Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value."
--Murphy's Constant
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Sun Jul  3 17:12:55 2005
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:12:55 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
Message-ID: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
>I think h2xs has contributed greatly to the "writing modules is hard"
myth.

Hm, "modules made easy" sounds like a good meeting topic. :)

- gabrielle 
"If you stay calm in a crisis, people will think you don't understand
the problem."

From jgoalby at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  7 11:00:53 2005
From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:00:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <4831.24.21.67.113.1116471046.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F24B34E01ACC3C9B3F5167FBBD80@phx.gbl>

I haven't seen this posted on this list so thought I would post it:

    http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/

Apologies if it was already posted.

John.



From krisb at ring.org  Thu Jul  7 13:33:38 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F24B34E01ACC3C9B3F5167FBBD80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, John Goalby wrote:
>     http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/

This looks interesting, but this also looks interesting:

from http://pacwest.ms/about/

"This site is provided by the Microsoft West Region Developer and Platform
Evangelism (DPE) team."

Also, you must have a Yahoo sign in to participate.

-Kris



From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul  7 14:40:47 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:40:47 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <BAY103-F24B34E01ACC3C9B3F5167FBBD80@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20050707214047.GF3769@windhund.schwern.org>

On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 01:33:38PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> from http://pacwest.ms/about/
> 
> "This site is provided by the Microsoft West Region Developer and Platform
> Evangelism (DPE) team."

But its at Reed and Reedies are CrAziE!  However they're not particularly 
known for their computer science department.  Its an odd choice.

Anyhow, one of the best conferences I ever went to was a Java conference.  So
don't put something down just because of the sponsor or registration system.
Uggg, O'Reilly's speaker registration system has contained deep suckage for
years.

Also Microsoft is deeply, deeply schitzoid.  "Small" departments within
Microsoft often have goals which seem directly opposite of the rest of the
company.

More telling... as anyone heard of any of these guys?
http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/tracks.html


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From krisb at ring.org  Thu Jul  7 15:06:06 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <20050707214047.GF3769@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071500000.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>



On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 01:33:38PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> > from http://pacwest.ms/about/
> >
> > "This site is provided by the Microsoft West Region Developer and Platform
> > Evangelism (DPE) team."
>
> But its at Reed and Reedies are CrAziE!  However they're not particularly
> known for their computer science department.  Its an odd choice.
>
> Anyhow, one of the best conferences I ever went to was a Java conference.  So
> don't put something down just because of the sponsor or registration system.
> Uggg, O'Reilly's speaker registration system has contained deep suckage for
> years.
>
> Also Microsoft is deeply, deeply schitzoid.  "Small" departments within
> Microsoft often have goals which seem directly opposite of the rest of the
> company.
>
> More telling... as anyone heard of any of these guys?
> http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/tracks.html


Well, I am actually considering going (I just don't want to join Yahoo to
do it).  I don't have a problem with any of the techies I have met from
Microsoft, but I have a knee-jerk reaction when something looks like
"hidden evangelism" (makes me envision isolate-and-hard-sell tactics).

This sounds to me like a good way to learn about .NET and/or C#.  But I
would have been upset if I did not know that before I went.

Tangentially, is ".ms" the microsoft top level domain?

-Kris



From krisb at ring.org  Thu Jul  7 15:11:13 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071506440.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>


Once more on this topic, and on the topic of net communication.  I felt
that this information was relevent and not explicit about this event, but
really I was not trying to imply through unfinished sentances that this
was Evil just because it it MicroSoft.  I just didn't know what words to
add or subtract to convey the extra information that would have been
portrayed by my tone of voice, and I did not have a person whom I was
speaking to, to guage their reaction and add extra information where I
perceived gaps in my communication.  How do other people deal with the
tone deaf communication in email and web pages?  Are there good phrases
that can take the place of voice tone information?

-Email Tone Deaf in Hillsboro

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Kris Bosland wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, John Goalby wrote:
> >     http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/
>
> This looks interesting, but this also looks interesting:
>
> from http://pacwest.ms/about/
>
> "This site is provided by the Microsoft West Region Developer and Platform
> Evangelism (DPE) team."
>
> Also, you must have a Yahoo sign in to participate.
>
> -Kris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
>
> !DSPAM:42cd91b0320211411112355!
>
>


From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul  7 15:23:02 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:23:02 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071500000.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <20050707214047.GF3769@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071500000.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20050707222302.GI3769@windhund.schwern.org>

On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 03:06:06PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> Well, I am actually considering going (I just don't want to join Yahoo to
> do it).  I don't have a problem with any of the techies I have met from
> Microsoft, but I have a knee-jerk reaction when something looks like
> "hidden evangelism" (makes me envision isolate-and-hard-sell tactics).
> 
> This sounds to me like a good way to learn about .NET and/or C#.  But I
> would have been upset if I did not know that before I went.

Maybe we can stack it with Perl programmers.

And monkeys!
http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/images/presenters/emork.jpg


> Tangentially, is ".ms" the microsoft top level domain?

Its Montserrat, a tiny island in the caribbean which is mostly covered in
volcanic ash and Windows ME cds right now.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mh.html


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
	-- Phillip K. Dick

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul  7 15:29:55 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:29:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071506440.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071506440.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20050707222955.GK3769@windhund.schwern.org>

On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 03:11:13PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> Once more on this topic, and on the topic of net communication.  I felt
> that this information was relevent and not explicit about this event, but
> really I was not trying to imply through unfinished sentances that this
> was Evil just because it it MicroSoft.  I just didn't know what words to
> add or subtract to convey the extra information that would have been
> portrayed by my tone of voice, and I did not have a person whom I was
> speaking to, to guage their reaction and add extra information where I
> perceived gaps in my communication.  How do other people deal with the
> tone deaf communication in email and web pages?  Are there good phrases
> that can take the place of voice tone information?

This reads like one of those big legal disclaimers Big Stupid Companies like
to put at the end of their employee emails which States The Blindlingly
Obvious.

Don't sweat it.

http://www.ncf.ca/ip/help/dictionary/smilies.en

;)


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From krisb at ring.org  Thu Jul  7 15:48:59 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:48:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <20050707222955.GK3769@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071547280.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> Don't sweat it.

I try to walk the line between trying to improve, and saying "F*ck it".
Maybe I'll just go find a Thesaurus next time I have a message that feels
slippery.

-Kris


From kyle at cepaso.com  Thu Jul  7 17:21:26 2005
From: kyle at cepaso.com (Kyle Dawkins)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:21:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <20050707214047.GF3769@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <BAY103-F24B34E01ACC3C9B3F5167FBBD80@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071329150.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<20050707214047.GF3769@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <ABDAC7DA-4E03-48B8-B825-2EA116031050@cepaso.com>


> More telling... as anyone heard of any of these guys?
> http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/tracks.html

No, but Tim Heuer (about half way down the "Presenters" page) looks  
suspiciously like Borat:

http://www.webgeordie.co.uk/borat/



From ptkwt at aracnet.com  Thu Jul  7 17:39:21 2005
From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <20050707222302.GI3769@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071731340.21267-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>



On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 03:06:06PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> > Well, I am actually considering going (I just don't want to join Yahoo to
> > do it).  I don't have a problem with any of the techies I have met from
> > Microsoft, but I have a knee-jerk reaction when something looks like
> > "hidden evangelism" (makes me envision isolate-and-hard-sell tactics).

Actually, it's not very well hidden.  On the presenters page there are one 
or two people listed as Microsoft developer evangelists.  Of course 
they just had the idea to do this Code Camp completely seperate from their 
work activities, I'm sure. 

> > 
> > This sounds to me like a good way to learn about .NET and/or C#.  But I
> > would have been upset if I did not know that before I went.

Actually, I want to go and ask "So, what exactly is .NET anyway?  I think 
I've heard about it somewhere or other, but I can't quite place it..."

> 
> Maybe we can stack it with Perl programmers.
> 
> And monkeys!
> http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/images/presenters/emork.jpg
> 
> 

And Powerbook/iBook users.  Lots of glowing Apples facing the front.  That 
would be good.


> > Tangentially, is ".ms" the microsoft top level domain?
> 
> Its Montserrat, a tiny island in the caribbean which is mostly covered in
> volcanic ash and Windows ME cds right now.
> http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mh.html

Interesting.  Perhaps Microsoft bought the whole island?

Phil


From jgoalby at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  8 14:03:25 2005
From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:03:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507071500000.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F2330BB1E759BBC1ABB55B3BBDB0@phx.gbl>

>On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 01:33:38PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> > > from http://pacwest.ms/about/
> > >
> > > "This site is provided by the Microsoft West Region Developer and 
>Platform
> > > Evangelism (DPE) team."
> >
> > But its at Reed and Reedies are CrAziE!  However they're not 
>particularly
> > known for their computer science department.  Its an odd choice.
> >
> > Anyhow, one of the best conferences I ever went to was a Java 
>conference.  So
> > don't put something down just because of the sponsor or registration 
>system.
> > Uggg, O'Reilly's speaker registration system has contained deep suckage 
>for
> > years.
> >
> > Also Microsoft is deeply, deeply schitzoid.  "Small" departments within
> > Microsoft often have goals which seem directly opposite of the rest of 
>the
> > company.
> >
> > More telling... as anyone heard of any of these guys?
> > http://pacwest.ms/codecamp/pdx/1/tracks.html
>
>
>Well, I am actually considering going (I just don't want to join Yahoo to
>do it).  I don't have a problem with any of the techies I have met from
>Microsoft, but I have a knee-jerk reaction when something looks like
>"hidden evangelism" (makes me envision isolate-and-hard-sell tactics).
>
>This sounds to me like a good way to learn about .NET and/or C#.  But I
>would have been upset if I did not know that before I went.
>
>Tangentially, is ".ms" the microsoft top level domain?
>
>-Kris
>
>

I wanted to clarify the reason I sent this to the list.  It was for people
that were interested in presenting as well as those interested in
attending.  The idea is really not to be pro-ms.  So, if you want show
pdx local devs something, this is your chance.  Those that attend get
the choice to see what they want.

Just curious, why is joining yahoo a problem?

John.



From krisb at ring.org  Fri Jul  8 15:02:12 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F2330BB1E759BBC1ABB55B3BBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507081452580.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, John Goalby wrote:
> Just curious, why is joining yahoo a problem?

Nothing against Yahoo! per se, just handing some information over to
another big corporation for no particular purpose.
How does this requirement benefit the camp?  Just an easier bulletin
board/mail list?  Lots of software out there for that.

-Kris


From jgoalby at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  8 16:26:53 2005
From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:26:53 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Code Camp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507081452580.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F22A1B39F3ED2D9D1BF4E28BBDB0@phx.gbl>

>On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, John Goalby wrote:
> > Just curious, why is joining yahoo a problem?
>
>Nothing against Yahoo! per se, just handing some information over to
>another big corporation for no particular purpose.
>How does this requirement benefit the camp?  Just an easier bulletin
>board/mail list?  Lots of software out there for that.
>
>-Kris

Taken offlist as was not perl or pdx conference related :-)

John.



From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Fri Jul  8 16:30:33 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:30:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: Newsletter from the O'Reilly UG
	Program, July 8]
Message-ID: <20050708233033.GJ4223@joshheumann.com>

----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----

From: Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com>
Subject: Newsletter from the O'Reilly UG Program, July 8
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:25:29 -0700
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:leave-usergroups-5378823G at newsletter.oreilly.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on codepirates.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable 
	version=3.0.3

================================================================
O'Reilly UG Program News--Just for User Group Leaders
July 8, 2005
================================================================
-UG Book Discount Increases to 30% Off
-Going to OSCON?
-Put Up an O'Reilly OSCON Banner, Get a Free Book
-Promotional Material Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book Info
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Review Books are Available 
Copies of our books are available for your members to review--
send me an email and please include the book's ISBN number on 
your request. Let me know if you need your book by a certain date. 
Allow at least four weeks for shipping. 


***Please Send Copies of Your Book Reviews
Email me a copy of your newsletter or book review.
For tips and suggestions on writing book reviews, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html


***Discount information
Don't forget to remind your members about the 30% discount on O'Reilly, 
No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, and Syngress 
books. Just use code DSUG.


***Group purchases with Better Discounts are Available
Please let me know if you are interested and I can put you in 
touch with our sales department.

----------------------------------------------------------------
General News
----------------------------------------------------------------
***UG Book Discount Increases to 30% Off
Please let your members know about our 30% discount on O'Reilly, 
No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, and Syngress 
books. Just use code DSUG. (See New Discount Bookmarks in promo
materials.)


***Are you going to OSCON in Portland, Oregon this year?
Please let me know!


***Put Up an O'Reilly OSCON Banner, Get a Free Book
We're looking for user groups to display our conference banner on their
web sites. If you send me the link to your group's site with our
O'Reilly 2005 Open Source Convention banner, I will send you the
O'Reilly book of your choice.

OSCON Banners:
http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/oscon2005/


***Promotional Material Available:
The following items are available for your next meeting.
Numbers are limited so please don't wait too long.

Let me know the item and the amount you'd like
and I'll do my best.

-Brand new hot off the press 30% UG Discount bookmarks in color!
-O'Reilly Open Source Convention Brochures
-MAKE Magazine (limit one per group)
-LinuxWorld Passes (PDF)

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
July 8, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-JBoss: A Developer's Notebook
-SharePoint Office Pocket Guide
-Project 2003 Personal Trainer
-Astronomy Hacks
-UML 2.0 in a Nutshell
-Maven: A Developer's Notebook
-Web Mapping Illustrated
-Exchange Server Cookbook
-ASP.NET 2.0: A Developer's Notebook
-Knoppix Pocket Reference
-Mapping Hacks
-Mac OS X Tiger Pocket Guide
-Learning Unix for Mac OS X Tiger
-MAKE Magazine Subscriptions Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 8-11
-David Pogue at Macworld Boston, SOHO Apple Store, and 
 Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Register for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, 
 Portland, OR--August 1-5
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Top Ten Questions People Ask About Switching to Internet Telephones
-Anti-spam Techniques
-Hacking Maps
-Making Your RSS Feed Look Pretty in a Browser
-Google Launches Payment System to Compete With PayPal
-ESR: "We Don't Need the GPL Anymore"
-Problems in OpenSSH, Sudo, and Java
-Secure Your MySQL Databases
-What Developers Want
-Music Gadgets
-Going to the Movies (and More) in iTunes
-Tweaking Tiger Mail
-Is This Security Alert Really from Microsoft?
-Atlas: Microsoft's Answer to Ajax
-Generics in .NET 2.0
-Getting Your Bluetooth Headset to Work in XP
-Java City: The Java Enterprise Ecosystem
-Getting Started with Maven
-Seven Steps to Noise-Free Digital Audio
-The Ultimate Portable Studio
-MAKE: Audio--Interview with John Maushammer
-MAKE: Blog--Podcasts on Audible

================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html

Don't forget, you can receive 30% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress book you 
purchase directly from O'Reilly.
Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938.
http://www.oreilly.com/

***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at 
least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer 
applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico.
For more details, go to:
http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html

----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
***JBoss: A Developer's Notebook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100078
This Developers Notebook takes you on a complete tour of JBoss in a very
unique way: rather than long discussions, you will find code--lots of
code. In fact, the book is a collection of hands-on labs that take you
through the critical JBoss features step-by-step. Don't just read about
JBoss, learn it through direct practical application.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jbossadn/

Chapter 9, "Rolling Out JBoss," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jbossadn/


***SharePoint Office Pocket Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101120
With this handy reference as your guide, you can reap all the benefits
of SharePoint. It shows you, in plain language, how to construct
websites where individuals from all over can capture and share ideas.
Learn how to upload documents, edit content, send alerts, track work
items, add new team members, and much more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/sharepointpg/


***Project 2003 Personal Trainer
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008546
Entertaining, clear, and informative, this book begins with the
fundamentals of planning and managing a project with Microsoft Project
2003, and then includes sections on working with task lists, updating a
project, tracking progress, creating reports, and more. This fully
illustrated Personal Trainer features dozens of time-saving,
task-oriented lessons, includes detailed diagrams, and comes with an
interactive CD tutorial to guide your learning.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/projectpt/

Chapter 5, "Working With Tasks," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/projectpt/chapter/index.html


***Astronomy Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100604
Do you relish viewing and identifying celestial objects? Whether you're
a first timer or an advanced hobbyist, this book makes a brilliant
cosmic companion. This handy field guide covers the basics of observing,
and what you need to know about tweaking, tuning, adjusting, and
tricking out a telescope. It includes priceless tips and tools for using
a Dobsonian Telescope that you can build in your garage inexpensively.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/astronomyhks/ 

Sample Hack 18, "Print Custom Charts," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/astronomyhks/chapter/index.html


***UML 2.0 in a Nutshell
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007957
This comprehensive guide has been crafted to help IT professionals read,
create, and understand system artifacts expressed using UML, and its
fully revised to cover UML 2.0. It not only provides a quick-reference
to all UML 2.0 diagram types, it also explains key concepts in a way
that appeals to readers already familiar with UML or object-oriented
programming concepts. Also includes an example-rich tutorial for those
new to the system.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/umlnut2/ 

Chapter 7, "Use Case Diagrams," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/umlnut2/chapter/index.html


***Maven: A Developer's Notebook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007507
If you're a Java programmer, this book will arm you with all the
critical information you need to get up to speed on Maven. It forces you
to get hands-on experience by working through a series of poignant
exercises that speak to you instead of at you. In the end, you'll find
yourself spending less time working on your project's build system and
more time working on your project's code.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mavenadn/

Chapter 1, "Maven Jump-Start," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mavenadn/chapter/index.html


***Web Mapping Illustrated
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008651
This clear and concise book shows you how to create maps (even
interactive maps) with open source tools, including MapServer, OpenEV,
GDAL/OGR, and PostGIS. It also explains how to find, collect,
understand, use, and share mapping data, both over the traditional web
and using OGC-standard services like WFS and WMS.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/webmapping/

Chapter 3, "Converting and Viewing Maps," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/webmapping/chapter/index.html


***Exchange Server Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007175
This comprehensive how-to guide covers the most common tasks for both
Exchange 2000 and Exchange Server 2003, everything from installation and
maintenance to configuration and optimization. In addition, you'll find
solutions to many uncommon tasks, advanced procedures, and ways to write
scripts for Exchange management and deployment tasks. What's more,
you'll
get answers quickly because chapters are laid out by recipe with
cross-references to related solutions.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/exchangeckbk/

Chapter 9, "Public Folder Management," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/exchangeckbk/chapter/index.html


***ASP.NET 2.0: A Developer's Notebook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008120
To bring you up to speed with ASP.NET 2.0, this practical book offers
nearly 50 hands-on projects. Each one explores a new feature of the
language, with emphasis on changes that can increase productivity,
simplify programming tasks, and help you add new functionality to your
applications. You get the goods straight from the masters in an
informal, code-intensive style.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/aspnetadn/

Chapter 1, "What's New?" is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/aspnetadn/chapter/index.html


***Knoppix Pocket Reference
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100752
If you want more information than the average Knoppix user, this book is
an absolutely essential addition to your personal library. This handy
reference shows you how to use Knoppix to troubleshoot and repair your
computer, how to customize the Knoppix CD, run RAM memory checks,
recover data from a damaged hard drive, scan for viruses on a Windows
system, and much more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/knoppixpr/


***Mapping Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007035
This collection of one hundred simple techniques is ideal for developers
and power users who want to draw digital maps. You'll learn where to
find the best sources of geographic data, how to interpret the data, and
how to integrate it into your own creations. It even provides practical,
integrative uses for GPS devices.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mappinghks/

Sample Hack 15, "Zoom Right in on Your Neighborhood," is available
online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mappinghks/chapter/index.html


***Mac OS X Tiger Pocket Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009143
This concise guide introduces you to the fundamental concepts of using
Mac OS X Tiger, including over 250 tips and tricks for using and
configuring your system. It concentrates a wealth of tables, common
keyboard shortcuts, tips for configuring your Mac, and an introduction
to issuing basic Unix commands using the Terminal application into a
package that is literally small enough to fit in your pocket.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mactigerpg/


***Learning Unix for Mac OS X Tiger
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009151
Thoroughly revised and updated for Mac OS X Tiger, this new edition
introduces Mac users to the Terminal application and shows how to
navigate the command interface, explore hundreds of Unix applications
that come with the Mac, and, most importantly, take advantage of
both the Mac and Unix interfaces. If you want to master the command
line, look no further.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ltigerunix/

Chapter 8, "Taking Unix Online," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ltigerunix/chapter/index.html


***MAKE Magazine Subscriptions Available
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--the first one plus
four more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for charter subscribers: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
https://www.pubservice.com/MK/Subnew.aspx?PC=MK&PK=M5ZUGLA

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
***For more events, please see:
http://events.oreilly.com/


***O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 8-11
Stop by our booth (#818) to check out our latest Linux and open source
titles. We'll also have info on some of our groovy new projects like
Make, Safari, and SafariU.
http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/live/12/events/12SFO05A


***Don't Miss David Pogue, "NY Times" columnist, Emmy-winning
correspondent for CBS News, and the always hilarious, always informative
author of the Missing Manual series at the following locations:

*MacWorld Boston, MA--July 13-14
David will speak at the conference July 13 at the following times:

11:15am-12:15pm The Mac OS X Tiger Supersession 

1:15pm - 2:15 pm David's Favorite OS X Secret

Or stop by the our booth (#423) to pick up the latest Missing Manual
titles. David will be around on Wednesday and Thursday.

For more information, go to:
http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20BOS05A/SN287250#david


*SOHO Apple Store, New York, NY--July 18
6:30 pm
103 Prince Street
For more information, including driving directions, go to:
http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/week/20050501.html


*Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, Palo Alto, CA--July 20
7:00 pm
Panofsky Auditorium at SLAC
2575 Sand Hill Road
Palo Alto, California

Hosted by A32, DVMUG, MilMUG, NCMUG, PlanetMUG, SMUG, SVMUG

For Driving Directions and public transportation:
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/welcome/location.html

Space is limited. If you would like to attend, please RSVP by emailing:
mugevent at oreilly.com. 

Please be prepared to show photo ID at the gate.

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***Register for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, 
 Portland, OR--August 1-5
OSCON 2005 explores three deep trends affecting open source: the
commoditization of software, network-enabled collaboration, and software
customizability. Join us at this essential gathering of open source
leaders and practitioners of every persuasion to exchange ideas and push
the boundaries of vital open source technologies. This year, we
introduce the Open Source Business Review, along with a host of other
exciting presentations and events.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/

Use code "os05grpusr" when you register, and receive 15% off the
registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***Top Ten Questions People Ask About Switching to Internet Telephones 
"Talk Is Cheap" author James Gaskin blames internet telephone vendors
and the press for dropping the consumer information ball when it comes
to the basic questions they have about switching to internet or
broadband telephones. If you're contemplating a switch, James has
answers to ten most frequently asked questions about dropping your
traditional telephone provider for broadband.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/06/27/talkischeap.html


***Anti-spam Techniques 
No Starch's Jonathan Zdziarski ("Ending Spam") speaks about his DSPAM
application and Bayesian filtering techniques.
http://www.networkworld.com/research/2005/0704radio.html


***Hacking Maps 
You've got the address, but where is that in GPS terms? In these two
excerpts from "Mapping Hacks," learn how to geocode (adding geographic
coordinates, such as latitude and longitude, to other information) a
US street address, as well as a whole database of addresses using the
geocoder.us web services.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/excerpt/MapHacks_chap7/index.
html


***Making Your RSS Feed Look Pretty in a Browser 
As more and more non-techie websites offer syndication feeds, a growing
number of non-technical readers are clicking on the links and filling
their screens with confusing XML. But syndication content doesn't have
to look like geeky markup or malformed text in your readers' browsers.
You can make it look quite pretty and give clues about what the feed is
actually for. Ben Hammersley, author of "Developing Feeds with RSS and
Atom," shows you how.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/07/01/rss.html


***Google Launches Payment System to Compete With PayPal
Learn about Google's plan to launch a competitor to PayPal and what it
will mean to you.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=274986

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***ESR: "We Don't Need the GPL Anymore" 
During a recent Brazilian conference on free and open source software,
hacker, writer, and speaker Eric Raymond stated that open source would
see more rapid success if the GPL didn't make people nervous. Federico
Biancuzzi recently interviewed ESR to gain more context for the
statement and to explore these views more fully.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/30/esr_interview.html


***Problems in OpenSSH, Sudo, and Java 
Noel Davis looks at problems in OpenSSH, Sudo, Sun Java, Blackdown Java,
tcpdump, cpio, JBOSS, Adobe Reader and Acrobat, gedit, Gaim, and Trac.
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/06/24/security_alerts.
html


***Secure Your MySQL Databases
With Security being on the forefront of many users' minds, it's very
important to ensure that your own sites databases are properly tied down
from intruders. Learn about the first steps to take here.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=275986


***What Developers Want 
Regardless of the language and platform you choose for development, you
likely share some goals with your fellow developers: to be productive,
to use good tools, and to keep your tools and processes out of your way
while you create good software. Murugan Pal, CTO of SpikeSource,
explains ten attributes he thinks developers want.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/23/whatdevswant.html

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***Music Gadgets 
Derrick Story wants to listen to music in a different way everyday. Here
are the gadgets he's been testing to "shuffle" his setup for music
playback. A few of these are real keepers.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/24/gadgets.html


***Going to the Movies (and More) in iTunes
Have you played with the video functionality in iTunes? If not, J.D
Biersdorfer presents a few things that Steve Jobs has mentioned--and a
few he hasn't. J.D. is the author of "iPod and iTunes: The Missing
Manual, 3rd Edition."
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/24/itunes.html


***Tweaking Tiger Mail 
The release of Mail 2.0 was largely overlooked amid all the fuss about
Tiger's system-level features, but a number of people have made public
complaints about changes made to the user interface. Mail's performance
has improved, but the apparent willingness of Apple's designers to
create an entirely new kind of toolbar icon just for use in Mail has
irritated some. Giles Turnbull shows you how to bring happiness back to
Mail.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/21/mail.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Is This Security Alert Really from Microsoft? 
An excellent way to get information about Windows updates is via email
with Microsoft Technical Security Notification Services. But how do you
know what's real and what's a spoof? Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows
Server Hacks," shows you.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/07/05/scripting.html


***Atlas: Microsoft's Answer to Ajax
Microsoft is putting together a toolkit for Web Developers who want to
use AJAX (Asychronous JavaScript and XML).
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=276224


***Generics in .NET 2.0 
Generics in .NET 2.0 permeates with potential. But what are generics?
Are they for you? Should you use them in your apps? Venkat Subramaniam,
author of ".NET Gotchas," answers these questions and take a closer look
at using generics, and their capabilities and limitations.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/06/20/generics.html


***Getting Your Bluetooth Headset to Work in XP 
With Bluetooth support built into SP2, getting a Bluetooth headset to
work should be a breeze. But it ain't necessarily so. Wei-Meng Lee shows
you how to do it.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/07/05/bluetooth.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Java City: The Java Enterprise Ecosystem 
Should we worry about promoting a healthy Java community? Or
iseverything just fine in Java City? Jim Farley asks you to weigh in on
these questions, and others, in the Talkbacks. He plans a follow up
article summarizing what you have to say. Your comments may help to
shape content in Jim's upcoming book, "Java Enterprise in a Nutshell,
3rd Edition," due out in the fall.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/06/22/javacity.html


***Getting Started with Maven 
In this excerpt from "Maven: A Developer's Notebook," authors Vincent
Massol and Timothy M. O'Brien show you how to install and start working
with Maven, the do-it-all Java project builder/manager.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/excerpt/mavenadn_ch01/index.html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Seven Steps to Noise-Free Digital Audio
Virtually all audio recordings will contain some amount of noise. Learn
what causes it, how to avoid it, and how to remove it from your files.
Based on "Digital Audio Essentials" by Bruce and Marty Fries.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/06/22/noise.html


***The Ultimate Portable Studio
If you're a musician, producer, engineer, or songwriter who wants to set
up a professional, laptop-based recording studio, here's all the
information you need.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/06/29/portable1.html

Part Two:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/07/06/portable2.html

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***MAKE: Audio--Interview with John Maushammer
John is a talented hardware tinkerer who's leading the way to reusing
disposable digital cameras, and now the new CVS disposable digital video
camcorder. Tune into hear how he does it.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/make_podcast/

Don't forget to add the MAKE feed to iTunes 4.9. Click this link:
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=
73330671
(and then click SUBSCRIBE).


***MAKE: Blog--Podcasts on Audible
Audible announced that they're supporting the podcast way of delivering
some of their content. You can add a URL (RSS feed) to a podcasting
application and the stuff you buy on Audible will go to your
computer/music player just like all the free podcasts you subscribe to.
So here's how it all works, plus the good, the bad, and the how-to for
some other things.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/06/audible_does_po.html


***For more information on MAKE, go to:
http://www.makezine.com/


================================================
>From Your Peers
================================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
groups around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi

Until next time--

Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly 
1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
================================================================

----- End forwarded message -----

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul  8 16:40:39 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:40:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
Message-ID: <200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# Roth, Gabrielle
# on Sunday 03 July 2005 05:12 pm:

>Michael G Schwern wrote:
>>I think h2xs has contributed greatly to the "writing modules is hard"
>
>myth.
>
>Hm, "modules made easy" sounds like a good meeting topic. :)

Cool.  Is it that time again already?

I could definitely go for a simple-rules sheet for what makes a module.  
Then maybe a whirlwind tour through module-starter, Module::MakeMaker, 
Inline::MakeMaker, Module::Build, and where all of this is going to 
land how.

--Eric
-- 
"It works better if you plug it in!"
--Sattinger's Law
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Fri Jul  8 17:27:38 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:27:38 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Eric Wilhelm' when='Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 04:40:39PM -0700'>
> Cool.  Is it that time again already?
> 
> I could definitely go for a simple-rules sheet for what makes a module.  
> Then maybe a whirlwind tour through module-starter, Module::MakeMaker, 
> Inline::MakeMaker, Module::Build, and where all of this is going to 
> land how.

Oh, right.  Ahem.

Michael Schwern will be leading a discussion of how to make a module,
what moduley system to use and how to get it ready for cpan.  I was
thinking just a continuation of this thread, but maybe with beer if we
wanted to have the whole thing at the Lucky Lab.

Either way, let's meet at Free Geek as per usual and figure it out from
there.

Josh

From marvin at rectangular.com  Fri Jul  8 18:34:42 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:34:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>


On Jul 8, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Josh Heumann wrote:

> Michael Schwern will be leading a discussion of how to make a module,
> what moduley system to use and how to get it ready for cpan.  I was
> thinking just a continuation of this thread, but maybe with beer if we
> wanted to have the whole thing at the Lucky Lab.

If I could suggest possible tangents:

- structure of a multi-module distro
- structure of an XS/Inline distro
- structure of an XS/Inline multi-module distro with more than one  
Makefile.PL

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul  8 19:01:50 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
	<AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 06:34:42PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> On Jul 8, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Josh Heumann wrote:
> 
> > Michael Schwern will be leading a discussion of how to make a module,
> > what moduley system to use and how to get it ready for cpan.  I was
> > thinking just a continuation of this thread, but maybe with beer if we
> > wanted to have the whole thing at the Lucky Lab.
> 
> If I could suggest possible tangents:
> 
> - structure of a multi-module distro

You mean multiple .pm files?


> - structure of an XS/Inline distro
> - structure of an XS/Inline multi-module distro with more than one  
> Makefile.PL

WARNING:  I know pretty much nothing about XS or Inline.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From krisb at ring.org  Fri Jul  8 19:28:05 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507081926470.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Josh Heumann wrote:
>
> Either way, let's meet at Free Geek as per usual and figure it out from
> there.
>
> Josh

Does this mean next Wed, or are you talking about tonight?

Just wondering, the discussion sounds interesting.

-Kris


From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul  8 21:43:26 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:43:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>
	<20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507082143.26625.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# The following was supposedly scribed by
# Michael G Schwern
# on Friday 08 July 2005 07:01 pm:

>> > wanted to have the whole thing at the Lucky Lab.

I think we would be over-run by le bike spectators (until 7:30), but 
maybe we could get the le-room?

>> If I could suggest possible tangents:
>> - structure of a multi-module distro
>You mean multiple .pm files?
<answering for others>yes</afo>

>> - structure of an XS/Inline distro
>> - structure of an XS/Inline multi-module distro with more than one ?
>> Makefile.PL
>
>WARNING: ?I know pretty much nothing about XS or Inline.

I don't either, but I've built a few modules that way :-)  I'll try to 
put together something or other (though you may all have to boo me for 
how kludgy it is.)

Schwern:  should I try to fit this into your talk or make it an 
addendum?

--Eric
-- 
"It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are 
in a hurry."
--Ralph's Observation
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Sat Jul  9 13:46:11 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:46:11 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507081926470.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507081926470.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20050709204611.GA10871@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Kris Bosland' when='Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 07:28:05PM -0700'>
> Does this mean next Wed, or are you talking about tonight?

The meetings are the second Wednesday of the month, so this would be
July 13th.

Josh

From marvin at rectangular.com  Sun Jul 10 12:39:48 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:39:48 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<200507081640.39802.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<20050709002737.GM4223@joshheumann.com>
	<AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>
	<20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <4D955C2A-1418-436E-9BAB-013DEA3693A7@rectangular.com>

On Jul 8, 2005, at 7:01 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 06:34:42PM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
>> On Jul 8, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Josh Heumann wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Michael Schwern will be leading a discussion of how to make a  
>>> module,
>>> what moduley system to use and how to get it ready for cpan.  I was
>>> thinking just a continuation of this thread, but maybe with beer  
>>> if we
>>> wanted to have the whole thing at the Lucky Lab.
>>>
>>
>> If I could suggest possible tangents:
>>
>> - structure of a multi-module distro
>>
>
> You mean multiple .pm files?

'zactly.

Not too tough, but I was confused at first when I did this, because I  
wanted to put a single module in the top-level directory.  Didn't go  
for a 'lib/'  directory 'till later.  I figured it was worth a  
mention...

>> - structure of an XS/Inline distro
>> - structure of an XS/Inline multi-module distro with more than one
>> Makefile.PL

This is where things start to get annoying.  You need more than one  
Makefile.PL, because the C code is going to need special treatment.   
Under Inline (probably XS too, but I haven't tried that yet), the  
Makefile.PL needs to be in the same directory as the C code.  But you  
don't want a bunch of Makefile.PL, Makefile.old, and Makefile garbage  
cluttering up your lib/ directory -- anything in the lib/ directory  
gets copied to the destination, and you definitely don't want that  
stuff to get "installed".

Ken Williams was kind enough to educate me about the "traditional"  
layout in a message to the Inline list; here's a reformulation of his  
recipe:

1) Create a new directory under the top-level directory.
2) If the XS/Inline module is Foo/Bar.pm, name the directory Bar/.
3) Put a separate Makefile.PL within Bar/.
4) When you 'perl Makefile.PL' on the main Makefile.PL, the  
WriteMakefile() sub recurses through all directories looking for  
other files named "Makefile.PL", which it will then execute.

For an example, Ken directed me to his AI::DecisionTree distro, which  
has AI::DecisionTree::Instance, an XS class, in a separate directory  
named Instance/:

http://search.cpan.org/src/KWILLIAMS/AI-DecisionTree-0.08/

In my case, the one Inline C module is  
Search::Kinosearch::KSearch::ResultSet.  Relocating that to a  
directory called ResultSet/ has forced me to change my workflow in a  
couple of ways.  The command "perl -Ilib t/01-foo.t" no longer works;  
fortunately "make; perl -Mblib t/01-foo.t" is a good substitute.  A  
problem I haven't yet solved is how to have apps other than tests  
(such as a search.cgi invoked through a web browser) that can point  
to my lib/ directory during development.  I had to kludge up  
something with symbolic links.

I figured exploring some extended cases like these would flesh out  
the meeting.  After all, if you don't write any tests or any POD,  
writing modules really isn't very hard.  ;)

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From schwern at pobox.com  Sun Jul 10 23:44:06 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:44:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Starting from scratch with Module::Build
In-Reply-To: <200507082143.26625.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297AEA@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<AC7188A4-F68A-463A-B037-CDA63C00735F@rectangular.com>
	<20050709020150.GB20851@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507082143.26625.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050711064406.GA10488@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 09:43:26PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> >WARNING: ?I know pretty much nothing about XS or Inline.
> 
> I don't either, but I've built a few modules that way :-)  I'll try to 
> put together something or other (though you may all have to boo me for 
> how kludgy it is.)
> 
> Schwern:  should I try to fit this into your talk or make it an 
> addendum?

Talk?  What talk?  I'm just leading a discussion.  You provide the cliffs,
I'll lead you off it.

On a side note, I have a suspicion the group will be spit into folks that
aren't very familiar with writing modules and have basic concerns and folks
that are really familiar with writing modules have really detailed concerns.
If we try to mix them together we'll get a bunch of folks who are either
bored or very, very confused.  So I see us fairly rapidly breaking up into
smaller groups.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 12 10:06:40 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:06:40 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [nreese@homebydesign.com: Re: Jobs?]
Message-ID: <20050712170640.GE24619@joshheumann.com>

----- Forwarded message from Nathan Reese <nreese at homebydesign.com> -----

Here is the info:

Required Skillset:  Perl programming in a professional environment for at 
least 5 years. Knowledge of programming in Linux is preferred. CGI, DBI/DBD 
with MySQL, and a heaping amount of dynamic html is just about all we do 
here so the ideal candidate must have related skills.

This position is for permanent employment, salaried, on a W2 tax status. 
The position is offered directly through our company, Home By Design. I am 
not a recruiter.

Salary will be determined by experience, range starting at 50K yearly up to 
80K yearly for properly qualified coders.

Benefits: Relocation benefits are offered and are negotiable. Life, 
disability, medical, dental, vision insurance are provided. 401K with 
profit sharing, paid vacation, casual dress work environment.

Physically located in Hayden, Idaho, about 4 hours east of Seattle just 
outside Spokane, Washington.  The cost of living is low, and its a lovely 
place to live. The position does not offer telecommute.

Home By Design is a profitable publishing company that creates a home and 
decor magazine, which is used as a marketing tool for real estate agents. 
We have been wildly successful and offer plenty of room to grow with us and 
enjoy success as we continue to create the nations fastest growing 
marketing system for realtors.

Only restriction is that this position is open to those legally authorized 
to work in the US, either permanent resident, or US citizens. We are not 
accepting work visa applications at this time.

Resumes can be emailed directly to me, or faxed to 208-676-0469

Questions are definately welcome to my email address: nathan at homebydesign.com

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Nathan Reese
Home By Design Magazine
11626 Tracey Rd
Hayden, ID 83835
Phone: 208-676-0569 x102
Fax: 208-676-0469

----- End forwarded message -----

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 12 10:11:28 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:11:28 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: News from O'Reilly: Visit OSCON's
	Exhibit Hall Free August 2-5]
Message-ID: <20050712171128.GG24619@joshheumann.com>

----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----

Hello--

Just in case you want to pass the following along to your members:

Visit the 2005 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Exhibit Hall at the
Oregon Convention Center (Hall D) in Portland, Oregon for FREE!

To register for your free exhibit hall pass, please visit
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05

This year's OSCON Exhibit Hall is the largest in our seven-year history,
and will feature a virtual "who's who" of open source companies. From
exciting start-ups such as ActiveGrid, BlackDuck Software, LogicBlaze, 
MarvelIT, Merchere, Palamida, SpikeSource, Sourcebeat, SourceLabs, and
SugarCRM to  industry giants like Apple Computer, Computer Associates,
Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, Sun Microsystems,  and Yahoo!, you'll
find the latest software and hardware offerings for your enterprise,
small or large.

The legendary Powell's Technical Bookstore will be on-site and selling
all titles at a 20% discount during the show.

If you're in the market for employment, several companies will be
recruiting during the event, so bring a resume.

Your Exhibit Hall pass also gives you access to the Products & Services
Track sessions, happening Tuesday through Friday, August 2-5:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/38/track_products.html

The OSCON Exhibit Hall Hours:
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 from 10:00 am-4:30 pm and 6:00-7:30 pm

Oregon Convention Center, Hall D
777 NE Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd.
Portland, Oregon 97232


Thanks,

Marsee


================================================================
O'Reilly 
1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
================================================================

----- End forwarded message -----

From ptkwt at aracnet.com  Tue Jul 12 10:18:09 2005
From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: News from O'Reilly: Visit OSCON's
 Exhibit Hall Free August 2-5]
In-Reply-To: <20050712171128.GG24619@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507121014250.24834-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>


Anyone know if there is a pass that needs to be bought to get 
into the Thursday night OSCON keynotes?  I didn't see anything 
like that on the OSCON site.  Seems I recall someone saying either here or 
on another list that the evening Keynote speeches are open (as in free) 
to anyone - is that true?

Phil

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Josh Heumann wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----
> 
> Hello--
> 
> Just in case you want to pass the following along to your members:
> 
> Visit the 2005 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Exhibit Hall at the
> Oregon Convention Center (Hall D) in Portland, Oregon for FREE!
> 
> To register for your free exhibit hall pass, please visit
> http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05
> 
> This year's OSCON Exhibit Hall is the largest in our seven-year history,
> and will feature a virtual "who's who" of open source companies. From
> exciting start-ups such as ActiveGrid, BlackDuck Software, LogicBlaze, 
> MarvelIT, Merchere, Palamida, SpikeSource, Sourcebeat, SourceLabs, and
> SugarCRM to  industry giants like Apple Computer, Computer Associates,
> Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, Sun Microsystems,  and Yahoo!, you'll
> find the latest software and hardware offerings for your enterprise,
> small or large.
> 
> The legendary Powell's Technical Bookstore will be on-site and selling
> all titles at a 20% discount during the show.
> 
> If you're in the market for employment, several companies will be
> recruiting during the event, so bring a resume.
> 
> Your Exhibit Hall pass also gives you access to the Products & Services
> Track sessions, happening Tuesday through Friday, August 2-5:
> http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/38/track_products.html
> 
> The OSCON Exhibit Hall Hours:
> Wednesday, August 3, 2005 from 10:00 am-4:30 pm and 6:00-7:30 pm
> 
> Oregon Convention Center, Hall D
> 777 NE Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd.
> Portland, Oregon 97232
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marsee
> 
> 
> ================================================================
> O'Reilly 
> 1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
> Sebastopol, CA   95472
> http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
> ================================================================
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> 


From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Tue Jul 12 10:22:15 2005
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:22:15 -0600
Subject: [Pdx-pm] free booth at oscon
Message-ID: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297B00@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>

I am still interested in helping out with this, if we're doing it.

gabrielle

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org 
> [mailto:pdx-pm-list-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Josh Heumann
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:41 PM
> To: pdx.pm 
> Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] free booth at oscon
> 
> 
> <quote who="Eric Wilhelm">
> > Yes.  I'll labor for a part of a session pass.  What's the
> > contribution/session hourly ratio?  I see 14.5 hours of 
> booth-staffing
> > required and (at-a-glance ~21 hours of sessions available.) 
>  Maybe just
> > call it one-for-one to be safe?
> >
> > Should we wiki a sign-up sheet or what?  How many people in 
> the group
> > would like to go but don't plan to fully spend the 
> prescribed amount of
> > time/money?
> 
> That's one, do we have any others?  We can start a wiki page, 
> but I'd like
> to know that there's at least a bit of interest.
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> 

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 12 10:29:56 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:29:56 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] free booth at oscon
In-Reply-To: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297B00@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297B00@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
Message-ID: <20050712172956.GH24619@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Roth, Gabrielle' when='Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 11:22:15AM -0600'>
> I am still interested in helping out with this, if we're doing it.

Sadly, we are not.  Partly due to lack of interested people, and partly
due to me not bugging people to do it.

Josh

From allison at perl.org  Tue Jul 12 10:54:42 2005
From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:54:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] free booth at oscon
In-Reply-To: <20050712172956.GH24619@joshheumann.com>
References: <E2383CA82A645A45B72D523F5A29311A01297B00@UTSANDMAIL02.mail.inthosts.net>
	<20050712172956.GH24619@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <0195297b3fa156e71f4a962de6aba5ea@perl.org>

On Jul 12, 2005, at 10:29, Josh Heumann wrote:

> <quote who='Roth, Gabrielle' when='Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 11:22:15AM 
> -0600'>
>> I am still interested in helping out with this, if we're doing it.
>
> Sadly, we are not.  Partly due to lack of interested people, and partly
> due to me not bugging people to do it.

There will be a Perl Foundation booth, if anyone is interested in 
volunteering for that. We'll be selling Perl shirts, so we're going to 
try to keep it staffed all the time, not just during breaks.

Allison


From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 12 18:27:17 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:27:17 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Lightning Talks at OSCON
Message-ID: <20050713012716.GA26569@joshheumann.com>

     Lightning Talks at the 2005 O'Reilly Open Source Convention
                                                                                                                                               
Lightning talks are brief (5-minute) talks that focus on a single
example, idea, project, or technique.  Lightning talks do not attempt
to cover all aspects of their subject matter, but rather to present
one facet of the idea clearly and succinctly.
                                                                                                                                               
To submit a proposal for a lightning talk, please send your proposed
title and an abstract of up to four sentences to
                                                                                                                                               
        osc-lt-2005-submit-perl at plover.com
                                                                                                                                               
For more complete information, visit:
                                                                                                                                               
        http://perl.plover.com/lt/osc2005/
                                                                                                                                               
Thanks.


From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 12 23:44:05 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:44:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] July Meeting
Message-ID: <20050713064405.GB27692@joshheumann.com>

July Meeting
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 6:30pm at Free Geek, 1741 SE 10th Ave

Michael Schwern, Modules Made E-Z

Starting with the discussion on the mailing list in early July, Schwern
will lead a conversation about building modules: what scripts to use,
why, and how to make your module submittable to CPAN.  Plus, all of the
other topics that were covered in that thread.

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Jul 13 09:51:21 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:51:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Italian Perl Workshop 2005 proceedings on line
Message-ID: <20050713165120.GD29209@joshheumann.com>

----- Forwarded message from Enrico Sorcinelli <bepi at modperl.it> -----

Hi all,

We are pleased to announce the on-line availability of 2nd Italian Perl Workshop
(June 2005) proceedings.  

HTML and/or PDF version of all contributions may be downloaded from here:

	http://www.perl.it/documenti/talks/ipw/2005/

We hope that someone will enjoy a little bit with them ;-)


	- Enrico  
	  IPW05 organization && Pisa.pm leader


--- have fun with www.perl.it ---
----- End forwarded message -----

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 13 14:08:23 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:08:23 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] July Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20050713064405.GB27692@joshheumann.com>
References: <20050713064405.GB27692@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <20050713210823.GG24499@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 11:44:05PM -0700, Josh Heumann wrote:
> July Meeting
> Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 6:30pm at Free Geek, 1741 SE 10th Ave
> 
> Michael Schwern, Modules Made E-Z
> 
> Starting with the discussion on the mailing list in early July, Schwern
> will lead a conversation about building modules: what scripts to use,
> why, and how to make your module submittable to CPAN.  Plus, all of the
> other topics that were covered in that thread.

If you have some code you've been thinking of modularizing, bring it and
we'll see if we can't modularize it.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Jul 13 23:17:34 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:17:34 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] powers of ten
Message-ID: <72245C3F-964B-4F54-A560-896B522893E7@sonofhans.net>

the video tonight was "powers of ten," [1] a film by charles and ray  
eames [2] (husband and wife).  you'd probably recognize one of their  
chairs [3].  i found a similar java version [4].

r

----
1) http://www.powersof10.com/
2) http://www.eamesoffice.com/
3) http://www.dwr.com/productdetail.cfm?id=0115
4) http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/


From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 14 01:10:18 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:10:18 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Inline at OSCON
Message-ID: <200507140110.18642.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: Inline at OSCON
Date: Friday 08 July 2005 11:10 am
From: Brian Ingerson <ingy at ttul.org>
To: inline at perl.org

Hola Inliners,

Long time no ingy.

I'll be at OSCON this year. I am thinking that maybe we could have a
 BOF to determine the future development of this module. Is anyone here
 interested in that?

Just to be clear, I'm still interested in Inline, but I have a lot of
irons in the fire these days. So I keep a lazy watch on Inline.
 Luckily, for the most part it seems to be standing up well enough. But
 perhaps it's time for a tune up.

I'd like to find a situation where lots of folks could be contributing
to the project and not be gated on me.

Cheers, Brian

-------------------------------------------------------

From brendan at hollyking.org  Thu Jul 14 10:05:29 2005
From: brendan at hollyking.org (brendan@hollyking.org)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:05:29 +0000
Subject: [Pdx-pm] notes from last nights meeting?
Message-ID: <20050714170529.GK11637@hollyking.org>

I was really interested in last night talk but I had a prior engagement
to go swimming in the Willamette (1).  Did anyone happen to take notes
they could share with me?

Thanks!

1. The plan was to take a kayak tour around Ross Island but the Portland
Spirit passed us by and I overcorrected in the wake and ended up taking
a swim.  I highly recommend the kayak tour, but I can not recommend the
swim.

-- 
Wood and workmanship must be fitted to the finish.
	-- Howard Chapelle

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 14 15:29:21 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:29:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT? Java .Net C# unhyped info?
Message-ID: <200507141529.22136.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

Some might say this is off-topic.  I'm trying to find honest 
introductory information about these overly hyped technologies that 
isn't on a Sun/MS billboard or in the context of "why these are 
stupid."

Maybe my question is whether they are worth learning or how much is 
important to know.  I've seen a hacker or two say that the buffoon will 
shoot himself in the foot anyway, and have been turned-off by the 
buzzwords that are sprinkled throughout the introductory material on 
the other side.  So, it occurred to me that I may have never read any 
info that wasn't either hyping or dumping-on.

Any references or thoughts from impartial observers?  (not that I expect 
a lot of them to be hanging out here, more a "surely you've heard of 
one or two" question.)

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to
predict the future is to invent it.
--Alan Kay
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From tex at off.org  Thu Jul 14 16:03:27 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:03:27 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT? Java .Net C# unhyped info?
In-Reply-To: <200507141529.22136.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <200507141529.22136.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050714230327.GG30249@gblx.net>

On Thu, Jul 14, 2005 at 03:29:21PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Some might say this is off-topic.  I'm trying to find honest 
> introductory information about these overly hyped technologies that 
> isn't on a Sun/MS billboard or in the context of "why these are 
> stupid."
> 
> Maybe my question is whether they are worth learning or how much is 
> important to know.  I've seen a hacker or two say that the buffoon will 
> shoot himself in the foot anyway, and have been turned-off by the 
> buzzwords that are sprinkled throughout the introductory material on 
> the other side.  So, it occurred to me that I may have never read any 
> info that wasn't either hyping or dumping-on.
> 
> Any references or thoughts from impartial observers?  (not that I expect 
> a lot of them to be hanging out here, more a "surely you've heard of 
> one or two" question.)
> 

	I would never call myself impartial, but I would take the time
to familiarize yourself with at least one. If you lean more toward Unix
development, go the java route. If you want to use the Microsoft environment
go for .Net/C#.
	Which one is your next employer going to want you to be familiar
with?

	Language wise, Java and C# seem pretty similar to me. If you are
familiar with Python they shouldn't be that hard to learn. There's even
a Java implementation of Python.


	Austin

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul 14 16:30:28 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:30:28 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
Message-ID: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>

...didn't entirely work as written.

To recap:

The goal is to have a single location to set $VERSION for all the .pm files
in a distribution.  $VERSION has to all be on one line in order for various
CPAN utilities to spot it.

  # lib/Hello/World/Version.pm
  package Hello::World::Version;

  return 0.01;

  # lib/Hello/World.pm
  package Hello::World;

  our $VERSION = require Hello::World::Version;

This takes advantage of the fact that require returns the last evaluated
expression of the file being required (a documented but little known 
feature).

Unfortunately, this only happens the *first* time something is required.
The second time it just returns 1 since the file has already been loaded.

$ perl -Ilib -wle 'print require Hello::World::Version;  print require Hello::World::Version'

You need to either "do" the file which tells Perl to always reload it, but
you can't say "do Hello::World::Version" it has to be 
"do 'Hello/World/Version.pm'" which is kind of nasty.

But you can trick Perl into thinking that Hello::World::Version was never
loaded by deleting its entry in %INC, the record of all the .pm files that
have been loaded.

$ perl -Ilib -wle 'print require Hello::World::Version;  \
                   print keys %INC;  \
                   print require Hello::World::Version;  \
                   delete $INC{"Hello/World/Version.pm"};  \ 
                   print require Hello::World::Version'
0.01
Hello/World/Version.pm
1
0.01

Hello::World::Version can do this inside itself.

  package Hello::World::Version;

  delete $INC{"Hello/World/Version.pm"};

  return 0.01;

so that now "$VERSION = require Hello::World::Version" works as expected.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 14 16:31:13 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT? Java .Net C# unhyped info?
In-Reply-To: <200507141529.22136.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20050714233113.77688.qmail@web60812.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eric Wilhelm <ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Some might say this is off-topic.  I'm trying to find honest 
> introductory information about these overly hyped technologies that 
> isn't on a Sun/MS billboard or in the context of "why these are 
> stupid."
> 
> Maybe my question is whether they are worth learning or how much is 
> important to know.

Various thoughts:  I know Java and I'm quite pleased that it's taught
me quite a bit about OO (including how *not* to do it).  Java is simple
(the language, not all the bloody APIs), ubiquitous and and as of the
1.5 release, it's starting to get interesting.  Not surprisingly, the
reason Java is starting to get interesting is because of competition
from C#.

As for C#, there's this obscure Perl hacker named Simon Cozens who has
interesting stuff to say about .Net and C#: 
http://perl.com/pub/a/2002/03/19/dotnet.html

If you do go looking for information about these technologies, just be
sure to get it from those folks who actually have programmed in them. 
I'm surprised at the amount of anti-language FUD I hear from folks
who've never actually *used* the languages they're bashing.

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul 14 16:34:24 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:34:24 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Hello::World
Message-ID: <20050714233424.GA13343@windhund.schwern.org>

I've put a tarball of the Hello::World module we worked up at the meeting
here:
http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/src/Hello-World.tar.gz

This is a tar of the directory and not a "make dist".  I wanted it to be
the pristine source files, "make dist" adds some things in.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
ROCKS FALL! EVERYONE DIES!
	http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml

From ptkwt at aracnet.com  Thu Jul 14 17:50:12 2005
From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT? Java .Net C# unhyped info?
In-Reply-To: <20050714230327.GG30249@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507141730470.24117-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>



On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Austin Schutz wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 14, 2005 at 03:29:21PM -0700, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> > Some might say this is off-topic.  I'm trying to find honest 
> > introductory information about these overly hyped technologies that 
> > isn't on a Sun/MS billboard or in the context of "why these are 
> > stupid."
> > 
> > Maybe my question is whether they are worth learning or how much is 
> > important to know.  I've seen a hacker or two say that the buffoon will 
> > shoot himself in the foot anyway, and have been turned-off by the 
> > buzzwords that are sprinkled throughout the introductory material on 
> > the other side.  So, it occurred to me that I may have never read any 
> > info that wasn't either hyping or dumping-on.
> > 
> > Any references or thoughts from impartial observers?  (not that I expect 
> > a lot of them to be hanging out here, more a "surely you've heard of 
> > one or two" question.)
> > 
> 
> 	I would never call myself impartial, but I would take the time
> to familiarize yourself with at least one. If you lean more toward Unix
> development, go the java route. If you want to use the Microsoft environment
> go for .Net/C#.
> 	Which one is your next employer going to want you to be familiar
> with?
> 
> 	Language wise, Java and C# seem pretty similar to me. If you are
> familiar with Python they shouldn't be that hard to learn. There's even
> a Java implementation of Python.

Caveat: It's been 7+ years since I did any Java. At the time I tried it 
for a while and liked it, but in the end I decided that C++ was a 
better fit for what I was doing performance-wise. Nowdays if I need 
performance C++ is still my choice as there have been a lot of 
advancements in the template space and Boost has become a very usable 
library.  Sometimes I'll use a mixture of C++ and Ruby: C++ for the fast 
bits (10 to 20% of the code) and Ruby for everything else (80 to 90%).

I've thought about learning C# lately as I've heard that they're getting 
nice things like lambdas (any movement towards this in the Java space?).  
Also, you can do C# programming on Mono so you don't need to run Windows 
or have Visual Studio to learn it.  It's probably not a bad idea to learn 
some of both as a lot of jobs require one or the other.

However, perhaps we should ask the OP what he's planning to do?  If he's 
doing web development perhaps he should have a look at RubyOnRails (which 
some would also consider hyped, but at least it's grass-roots hype as 
opposed to corporate hype :) 

Phil 


From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 14 19:22:33 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:22:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT? Java .Net C# unhyped info?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507141730470.24117-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507141730470.24117-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <200507141922.33535.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from Phil Tomson
# on Thursday 14 July 2005 05:50 pm:

>However, perhaps we should ask the OP what he's planning to do?

Deliver agile custom software development services to the architecture, 
engineering, and construction industry.  It would be nice if I had 
something more specific at the moment :-)

also:  Design and implement a CAD file format which is usable in 
multiple languages, including C, C++, perl, python, ruby, bash, etc.  
Maybe this involves writing libraries in all of these languages and 
more or maybe just collaborating with those that are.  In any case, I 
had better (like any tourist) at least know how to ask where the 
sys.stdout is.

The curiosity about other technologies (I know Linux, Perl, ~Python, ~C, 
~Fortran, ~~Ruby, ~~C++, ~~Win32, ~~~?Lisp) is mostly about knowing 
"what I don't know" so that I can figure out what I need to know and 
whether or not I'm missing something.

--Eric
-- 
"If you only know how to use a hammer, every problem begins to look like
a nail."
--Richard B. Johnson
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From krisb at ring.org  Fri Jul 15 13:56:31 2005
From: krisb at ring.org (Kris Bosland)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>


On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> you can't say "do Hello::World::Version" it has to be
> "do 'Hello/World/Version.pm'" which is kind of nasty.

...

>   package Hello::World::Version;
>
>   delete $INC{"Hello/World/Version.pm"};
>
>   return 0.01;

Seems like there is still the hard coded separator problem.  Is there a
way to access this without those separators?

-Kris


From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul 15 14:11:46 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:11:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
Message-ID: <20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 01:56:31PM -0700, Kris Bosland wrote:
> >   package Hello::World::Version;
> >
> >   delete $INC{"Hello/World/Version.pm"};
> >
> >   return 0.01;
> 
> Seems like there is still the hard coded separator problem.  Is there a
> way to access this without those separators?

Thankfully, entries in %INC are always Unix style no matter the platform.

Anyone with a Windows machine, I'd be curious to know what it does with:

	require "C:\foo\bar\baz.pl";


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Fri Jul 15 14:18:46 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 15 Jul 2005 14:18:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <86ek9z939l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> writes:

Michael> Anyone with a Windows machine, I'd be curious to know what it does with:

Michael> 	require "C:\foo\bar\baz.pl";

You deliberately using a formfeed and two backspaces in there?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From brendan at hollyking.org  Fri Jul 15 14:43:32 2005
From: brendan at hollyking.org (brendan@hollyking.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:43:32 +0000
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [brendan@hollyking.org: Re:  Austin's $VERSION trick]
Message-ID: <20050715214332.GM11637@hollyking.org>

Dangit!  I meant that to go to the list, not just to Schwern.

-- 
P is for Prue trampled flat in a brawl.
	-- Edward Gorey, The Gashlycrumb Tinies
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: brendan at hollyking.org
Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:42:28 +0000
Size: 1984
Url: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20050715/e9594aba/attachment.mht

From david at kineticode.com  Fri Jul 15 14:22:43 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:22:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>

On Jul 14, 2005, at 4:30 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Hello::World::Version can do this inside itself.
>
>   package Hello::World::Version;
>
>   delete $INC{"Hello/World/Version.pm"};
>
>   return 0.01;
>
> so that now "$VERSION = require Hello::World::Version" works as  
> expected.

Will this force Perl to re-load Hello::World::Version from disk for  
every module that requires it?

If so, why not add a method to it?

   package Hello::World::Version;
   sub ver { return '0.01' }

Then:

   our $Hello::World::VERSION = require Hello::World::Version &&  
Hello::World::Version::ver;

And either way, this won't fix those implementations (such as  
search.cpan.org) that don't evaluate *any* perl code when searching  
for the version number...

Best,

David

From chromatic at wgz.org  Fri Jul 15 14:26:47 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:26:47 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <1121462807.10603.22.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 14:22 -0700, David Wheeler wrote:

> Will this force Perl to re-load Hello::World::Version from disk for  
> every module that requires it?

Yes, including cycling through @INC and all.  I'm not an optimization
nut, but avoiding unnecessary disk access is good.

> If so, why not add a method to it?

If you set $VERSION, you can use the VERSION method.

> And either way, this won't fix those implementations (such as  
> search.cpan.org) that don't evaluate *any* perl code when searching  
> for the version number...

True.  My distributions include a META.yml file, though.  Is this not
enough?

-- c


From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul 15 14:37:25 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:37:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <86ek9z939l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>
	<86ek9z939l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20050715213725.GI6897@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 02:18:46PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> Michael> Anyone with a Windows machine, I'd be curious to know what it does with:
> 
> Michael> 	require "C:\foo\bar\baz.pl";
> 
> You deliberately using a formfeed and two backspaces in there?

Its a test for the reader.  You pass. :)

This is what I want to know:

  perl -wle "require 'C:\\foo\\bar\\baz.pl';  print join qq'\n', keys %INC"

Replace the file with any absolute path to a Perl file.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
ROCKS FALL! EVERYONE DIES!
	http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml

From brendan at hollyking.org  Fri Jul 15 15:13:03 2005
From: brendan at hollyking.org (brendan@hollyking.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:13:03 +0000
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050715213725.GI6897@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>
	<86ek9z939l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050715213725.GI6897@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050715221303.GO11637@hollyking.org>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 02:37:25PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
 
> Its a test for the reader.  You pass. :)

Doh!  I fail.  :(

>   perl -wle "require 'C:\\foo\\bar\\baz.pl';  print join qq'\n', keys %INC"

I get:

  Carp.pm
  warnings.pm
  C:\foo\bar\baz.pl
  strict.pm
  Exporter.pm


-- 
U is for Una who slipped down a drain.
	-- Edward Gorey, The Gashlycrumb Tinies

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul 15 14:50:11 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:50:11 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <20050715215011.GJ6897@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 02:22:43PM -0700, David Wheeler wrote:
> Will this force Perl to re-load Hello::World::Version from disk for  
> every module that requires it?

Yes.

> If so, why not add a method to it?

Because...

>   package Hello::World::Version;
>   sub ver { return '0.01' }
> 
> Then:
> 
>   our $Hello::World::VERSION = require Hello::World::Version &&  
> Hello::World::Version::ver;

...I think the length of that statement says it all.  Remember what we're
trying to replace:

	# lib/Hello/World/Version.pm
	package Hello::World;

	our $VERSION = 1.00;

	# lib/Hello/World.pm
	package Hello::World;

	our $VERSION = require Hello::World::Version && $Hello::World::VERSION;

Which is, ironically, shorter.  Now repeat that for 50 .pm files.

Also, I'm willing to bet that reloading a 3 line Perl module really has
no significant performance effect especially given that this technique is
really of use in large systems.  And I'll bet a method call is even slower.


> And either way, this won't fix those implementations (such as  
> search.cpan.org) that don't evaluate *any* perl code when searching  
> for the version number...

Yeah, Andreas noted that when he saw SVK doing this.  They're working
something out by putting version numbers into the provides slot of META.yml
and having the CPAN indexers use that.  META.yml finally has a use.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Jul 15 14:57:05 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:57:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050715221303.GO11637@hollyking.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0507151353050.22955-100000@ender.ring.org>
	<20050715211146.GG6897@windhund.schwern.org>
	<86ek9z939l.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050715213725.GI6897@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050715221303.GO11637@hollyking.org>
Message-ID: <20050715215705.GL6897@windhund.schwern.org>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:13:03PM +0000, brendan at hollyking.org wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 02:37:25PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>  
> > Its a test for the reader.  You pass. :)
> 
> Doh!  I fail.  :(
> 
> >   perl -wle "require 'C:\\foo\\bar\\baz.pl';  print join qq'\n', keys %INC"
> 
> I get:
> 
>   Carp.pm
>   warnings.pm
>   C:\foo\bar\baz.pl
>   strict.pm
>   Exporter.pm

Ok, so paths are only Unixy if they go through the "require Foo::Bar" -> 
"require 'Foo/Bar.pm'" translation.  Makes sense.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From david at kineticode.com  Fri Jul 15 15:28:33 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:28:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <1121462807.10603.22.camel@localhost>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<E60BE7B2-36ED-4F7F-8DD3-32EBD1997107@kineticode.com>
	<1121462807.10603.22.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <6F67621B-79B3-4BD3-ABEB-1F9FBA20DBF5@kineticode.com>

On Jul 15, 2005, at 2:26 PM, chromatic wrote:

> Yes, including cycling through @INC and all.  I'm not an optimization
> nut, but avoiding unnecessary disk access is good.

Agreed.

> If you set $VERSION, you can use the VERSION method.

Right, that's what I have Bricolage doing:

   require Bric; our $VERSION = Bric->VERSION;


>> And either way, this won't fix those implementations (such as
>> search.cpan.org) that don't evaluate *any* perl code when searching
>> for the version number...
>
> True.  My distributions include a META.yml file, though.  Is this not
> enough?

No, I think that that probably is enough. But I don't have a solution  
for this for my JavaScript libraries. In fact, all of my CPAN modules  
have the version number hard coded in every module, too. Whenever I  
have a new version, I execute a script to update it:

   http://www.justatheory.com/computers/programming/perl/ 
increment_version.html

I recently modified the regex to work with JavaScript library  
versions, too.

Best,

David

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul 15 15:51:12 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:51:12 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507151551.12830.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Thursday 14 July 2005 04:30 pm:

>? our $VERSION = require Hello::World::Version;
>
>This takes advantage of the fact that require returns the last
> evaluated expression of the file being required (a documented but
> little known feature).
>
>Unfortunately, this only happens the *first* time something is
> required. The second time it just returns 1 since the file has
> already been loaded.

Wasn't the point of this trick to make the CPAN system happy?  I guess 
it could bite you if you expected to rely on it for something within 
the running code.  Anyway, this seems to work:

our $VERSION = $Hello::World::Version || require(Hello::World::Version);


#############
/tmp/lib$ tree
.
`-- Hello
    |-- World
    |   `-- Version.pm
    `-- World.pm

2 directories, 2 files

/tmp/lib$ cat Hello/World.pm
package Hello::World;

use Hello::World::Version;
our $VERSION = $Hello::World::Version || require(Hello::World::Version);

print "version: $VERSION\n";


/tmp/lib$ cat Hello/World/Version.pm
package Hello::World;
our $Version = '0.76_02';
return($Version);


/tmp/lib$ PERL5LIB=/tmp/lib/ perl  -e 'use Hello::World;'
version: 0.76_02

#############

Comment the 'use' out of World.pm to check.

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul 15 16:01:05 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:01:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Austin's $VERSION trick
In-Reply-To: <200507151551.12830.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20050714233027.GM3611@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507151551.12830.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <200507151601.05539.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from Eric Wilhelm
# on Friday 15 July 2005 03:51 pm:

>$VERSION = $Hello::World::Version || require(Hello::World::Version);

Oops.  Don't put those parentheses in there when running under strict.

our $VERSION = $Hello::World::Version || require Hello::World::Version;

--Eric
-- 
"I've often gotten the feeling that the only people who have learned
from computer assisted instruction are the authors."
--Ben Schneiderman
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From randall at sonofhans.net  Tue Jul 19 11:05:05 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:05:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
Message-ID: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>

folks ~

i'm refactoring some gnarly old code that has no tests.  it's mostly  
baby perl, or worse.  there's this line:

     if( $#ARGV + 1 < 1 || $#ARGV + 1 > 2 ) {

which seems like a complicated way of writing:

     if( @ARGV < 1 or @ARGV > 2 ) {

i've tested this and found it to be true.  my question is, why on  
earth would someone write this the first way?  it's one thing not to  
understand scalar context; it seems entirely insane to add those ones  
before the less|greater than tests.

am i missing an idiom?  historical reason?  does @ARGV behave oddly  
enough in certain contexts that these gymnastics are necessary?

thanks,

r


From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Jul 19 11:10:55 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:10:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <1121796655.10296.106.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 11:05 -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:

>      if( $#ARGV + 1 < 1 || $#ARGV + 1 > 2 ) {

> i've tested this and found it to be true.  my question is, why on  
> earth would someone write this the first way?  it's one thing not to  
> understand scalar context; it seems entirely insane to add those ones  
> before the less|greater than tests.

My guess is a combination of not understanding scalar context and
copying code from a book that didn't understand scalar context.  ("To
find the length of an array, use $#ARRAY + 1.")

I once read a Perl book that suggested that being able to evaluate an
array in scalar context was a bug that a future version of Perl would,
hopefully, fix.

-- c


From jeff at vpservices.com  Tue Jul 19 11:30:50 2005
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:30:50 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <42DD46DA.2020006@vpservices.com>

Randall Hansen wrote:

> my question is, why on  
>earth would someone write this the first way?
>
They forgot the first rule : write code as if the person who has to 
maintain/refactor your code is a homicidal maniac and he has your home 
address.  If they'd know it would be Randall, they would have been 
doubly afraid :-).

-- 
Jeff

From randall at sonofhans.net  Tue Jul 19 11:46:44 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:46:44 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <42DD46DA.2020006@vpservices.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<42DD46DA.2020006@vpservices.com>
Message-ID: <D0128C61-738F-47DA-9BBD-F2B41E0C53B9@sonofhans.net>

On Jul 19, 2005, at 11:30 AM, Jeff Zucker wrote:

> They forgot the first rule : write code as if the person who has to  
> maintain/refactor your code is a homicidal maniac and he has your  
> home address.  If they'd know it would be Randall, they would have  
> been doubly afraid :-).

hey, i just *look* scary.  no one at the united nations[1] is dead,  
right? :)

r

----
1) scene of a particularly hairy, seemingly endless job we did  
together last year.  no political overtones intended.


From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 19 12:14:03 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:14:03 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 11:05:05AM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
>      if( $#ARGV + 1 < 1 || $#ARGV + 1 > 2 ) {
> 
> which seems like a complicated way of writing:
> 
>      if( @ARGV < 1 or @ARGV > 2 ) {
> 
> i've tested this and found it to be true.  my question is, why on  
> earth would someone write this the first way?  it's one thing not to  
> understand scalar context; it seems entirely insane to add those ones  
> before the less|greater than tests.
> 
> am i missing an idiom?  historical reason?  does @ARGV behave oddly  
> enough in certain contexts that these gymnastics are necessary?

Lots of poorly written Perl books (which is to say most of them prior to 2000)
never clearly teach $num_things = @things.  See 
http://mungus.schwern.org/~schwern/litmus_test/index.html
for some examples.

Adding one to $#ARGV is to make the operation more like how people think.  
Rather than think "if the index of @ARGV is less than 0 or greater than 1" 
they want to express the more natural "if I got less than 1 argument or more 
than 2".  Its also reflexive.  $#array + 1 is how folks are often taught to
get the number of elements in an array.

The ironic thing is this is all a really complicated way of saying the much
more natural:

	# if I got 1 or 2 args...
	if( @ARGV == 1 or @ARGV == 2 ) {
		...
	}


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From david at kineticode.com  Tue Jul 19 12:42:55 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:42:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <019443BE-91E5-451D-93A9-A1F8ABD134F7@kineticode.com>

On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Adding one to $#ARGV is to make the operation more like how people  
> think.

Provided that they think in C.

Best,

David


From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 19 12:50:25 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:50:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507191250.25491.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Tuesday 19 July 2005 12:14 pm:

>On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 11:05:05AM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
>> which seems like a complicated way of writing:
>>
>>      if( @ARGV < 1 or @ARGV > 2 ) {

I'm guessing the next step is to die with a usage message or otherwise 
complain about the number not being 1|2

>The ironic thing is this is all a really complicated way of saying the
> much more natural:
>
>	# if I got 1 or 2 args...
>	if( @ARGV == 1 or @ARGV == 2 ) {
>		...
>	}

You've reversed the intent though.

  unless(@ARGV == 1 or @ARGV == 2) {
    die "you must guess the correct number of arguments\n";
  }

Maybe they started in a language without an "unless" or for some other 
reason chose to write the negative form of the OK condition instead of 
negating the OK condition.

  if(not (@ARGV == 1 or @ARGV == 2)) {

I prefer to use unless(everything_is_okay()) since I think it reads 
better.  If Randall is in the sweet vengeful position of being able to 
return maintenance to the original author, maybe he would like to 
initiate a perl crash-course with the more conversational:

  unless(scalar(@ARGV) =~ m/^(?:1|2)$/) {

Of course that's a little hairbrained, but I don't see any functional 
holes in it right now.

IIRC, perl6 going to have something like (like!) $num == $this or $that, 
which is pronounced the same as the above but with less stuttering.

--Eric
-- 
"Everything goes wrong all at once."
--Quantized Revision of Murphy's Law
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From tex at off.org  Tue Jul 19 13:45:35 2005
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:45:35 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:14:03PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 11:05:05AM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
> >      if( $#ARGV + 1 < 1 || $#ARGV + 1 > 2 ) {
> > 
> > which seems like a complicated way of writing:
> > 
> >      if( @ARGV < 1 or @ARGV > 2 ) {
> > 
> > i've tested this and found it to be true.  my question is, why on  
> > earth would someone write this the first way?  it's one thing not to  
> > understand scalar context; it seems entirely insane to add those ones  
> > before the less|greater than tests.
> > 
> > am i missing an idiom?  historical reason?  does @ARGV behave oddly  
> > enough in certain contexts that these gymnastics are necessary?
> 
> Lots of poorly written Perl books (which is to say most of them prior to 2000)
> never clearly teach $num_things = @things.  See 
> http://mungus.schwern.org/~schwern/litmus_test/index.html
> for some examples.
> 
> Adding one to $#ARGV is to make the operation more like how people think.  

	I have to wonder what sort of people you've been associating with
that think this way. :-)
	IIRC it's some sort of a shell script holdover. I never use it
because imo it's heinously ugly syntax. Plopping a comment character in
the middle of the symbol to determine not the length, but the index of the
last entry? Yurgh.
	What happens if there are no entries in the array? -1? Ugh.
	How about the position of the last element of an anonymous array?
$#$array?  Triple yurgh.
	But... if you have a 2 dimensional array you can do cool things like
$last_element = $a->[$#$a]->[$#{${*}a->[$#$a]}]; Let those java weenies parse
that!

	On the other hand, apparently the whole scalar vs. array context
can be confusing to newbies. Maybe it would be nice if the length() function
returned the number of elements in an array, matching other languages. It's
my understanding it's supposed to do just that in perl6.


	Austin

From raa at mailporter.net  Tue Jul 19 14:36:49 2005
From: raa at mailporter.net (raa@mailporter.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:36:49 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] ppm repository for Test::WWW::Mechanize
Message-ID: <42DD7271.9020203@mailporter.net>

I'm trying to install Test::WWW::Mechanize on a WinXP and Win2K server 
and would prefer to use ppm to do it.  Down side is I can't find a 
repository with it.

Any suggestions as to where to look?  Can I get away with just placing 
the .pm in the correct directory.

Repository-wise I have both ActiveStates, Roth Consulting and TheoryX. 
Any others I should have by default?


Rod
-- 
---
[Certified Virus free by MailPorter Mail Services.    www.MailPorter.com ]


From andy at petdance.com  Tue Jul 19 14:40:40 2005
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:40:40 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] ppm repository for Test::WWW::Mechanize
In-Reply-To: <42DD7271.9020203@mailporter.net>
References: <42DD7271.9020203@mailporter.net>
Message-ID: <20050719214040.GA14034@petdance.com>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 02:36:49PM -0700, raa at mailporter.net (raa at mailporter.net) wrote:
> I'm trying to install Test::WWW::Mechanize on a WinXP and Win2K server 
> and would prefer to use ppm to do it.  Down side is I can't find a 
> repository with it.

We authors certainly don't have any control over how it gets PPDed.

There's really nothing in TWM that is at all tricky, or compiled.

xoxo,
Andy

-- 
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 19 15:25:33 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:25:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [PLUG] ANNOUNCEMENT: Advanced Topics July 20th, 2005
Message-ID: <200507191525.33293.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

I've mentioned this methodology to a few people in the group.  If you're 
interested, you may want to come to Jax tomorrow night and bash my 
casual "who needs testing?" approach (which is threatening to mature 
into the more conservative "who needs make install?".)  

Yes it's a linux group, but OS X has symlinks and subversion, so the 
mac-enabled can play too.

--Eric

----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [PLUG] ANNOUNCEMENT: Advanced Topics July 20th, 2005
Date: Tuesday 19 July 2005 02:53 pm
From: Alan <alan at clueserver.org>
To: plug-announce at lists.pdxlinux.org, PLUG list 
<plug at lists.pdxlinux.org>

Portland Linux/Unix Group Advanced Topics

Speaker:            Eric Wilhelm

Subject:            Rapid Development with a Safety Net

Date:               July 20th 2005
Time:               7:00pm - 9:00pm

Location:           Jax 826 SW 2nd Ave
                    Portland, OR

The talk will be on building multiple versions of software without
unexpected adverse difficulties. (And still have it work.)

The following is the outline as provided by Eric:

INFO

Audience:
  developers
  involved administrators
  consultants / integrators
  interested others

Description:
  The talk will follow the basic outline below, quickly covering
 typical version control layouts and usage.  Fairly thorough coverage
 of the perl/python library path structure (depending on audience
  familiarity.)

  I would expect the audience to bring some familiarity with system
  administration and program installation.  Developers will probably
  benefit more than administrators, but most admins have at least
  written a bit of perl code and would definitely benefit from a less
  ad-hoc approach to this (especially if they have trouble with
  different versions of custom scripts on multiple machines.)

  I would like to break into ad-hoc discussion about extending the
  concept into compiled code and large projects.  I think the audience
  would have more thoughts on handling dependencies and dealing with
  various package management systems.  These are somewhat hairy areas,
  and the conclusion may be that you only want to use this approach
 when the complexity is easily managed.

  I think discussion of a chroot approach would fit as well.

  The "stupid question threshold" would be down around an understanding
  of filesystems and code vs binary, so anyone with a few years
  experience and no fear of the command line should be able to keep up.


OUTLINE

Motivations:
  code development
  project tracking
  casual contribution

Traditional approach:
  make && make test && make install
  what sort of troubles copies cause
  why this is tedious if you're developing interpreted code
  why this is difficult if you're tracking multiple versions

Basics:
  version control (svn/cvs/svk)
    trunk, branch, etc.
    vendor branches, external
  symlinks
  locations
    /usr/local/svn_stuff/
    /usr/local/stow/
        etc.
    $PATH
    $PERL5LIB
        $PYTHONPATH

Interpreted code:
  perl, python, ruby, lisp

Compiled code:
  C, C++

Issues:
  Dependencies
  Package management systems
  broken symlinks
  unexpected behavior?


Usual meeting rules apply. Happy Hour meal prices for the first hour.


--
"All power is derived from the barrel of a GNU." - Mao Tse Stallman

_______________________________________________
PLUG mailing list
PLUG at lists.pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 
"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana."
--Groucho Marx
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From raa at mailporter.net  Tue Jul 19 16:48:39 2005
From: raa at mailporter.net (raa@mailporter.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:48:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Return of clueless
Message-ID: <42DD9157.3010909@mailporter.net>

( It's too bad I now know Andy is on this list.  :-)

The saga continues.  I have Test::WWW::Mechanize installed on the WinXP
system.  ( For others that might be interested install via ppm
WWW:Mechanize, Test::LongString and Carp::Assert::More then put the TWM
Mechanize.pm in the $perl/site/lib/Test/WWW directory. )

I created this _very_ simple script -- assuming I could test/learn TWM
incrementally.


use Test::WWW::Mechanize;

my $mech = Test::WWW::Mechanize->new();

$mech->get_ok( "http://config.mailporter.com" );
$mech->title_like( qw/Config/ );


and got this back

You tried to run a test without a plan!  Gotta have a plan. at
C:/Perl/site/lib/Test/WWW/Mechanize.pm line 105
# Looks like your test died before it could output anything.

Searching for the word "plan" in every directory I could think of got me
nothing.  Line 105 and its near by friends in TWM Mechanize.pm is this.

     $self->get( $url, %opts );
     my $ok = $self->success;

     $Test->ok( $ok, $desc );
     if ( !$ok ) {
         $Test->diag( $self->status );
         $Test->diag( $self->response->message ) if $self->response;
     }

     return $ok;

This is part of sub get_ok whcih makes sense -- at least to me.

So I thought  @#$%^&  Windows and tried this on a Fedora Core 2 system 
and got the same error message.

What am I doing wrong?  Somewhere further back up the Test:: chain is 
there a way to create/define a "plan" that I haven't found?

Anyone have a full working example of a TWM script that I can look at?


TIA,
Rod
-- 

---
[Certified Virus free by MailPorter Mail Services.    www.MailPorter.com ]


From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Jul 19 17:05:27 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:05:27 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Return of clueless
In-Reply-To: <42DD9157.3010909@mailporter.net>
References: <42DD9157.3010909@mailporter.net>
Message-ID: <1121817927.10278.161.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 16:48 -0700, raa at mailporter.net wrote:

> use Test::WWW::Mechanize;

use Test::More tests => 2;

> my $mech = Test::WWW::Mechanize->new();
> 
> $mech->get_ok( "http://config.mailporter.com" );
> $mech->title_like( qw/Config/ );

Every Perl test script built on Test::Builder requires you either to say
how many tests you plan to run or to say that you don't want to say.

-- c


From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 19 17:19:55 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:19:55 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <019443BE-91E5-451D-93A9-A1F8ABD134F7@kineticode.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<019443BE-91E5-451D-93A9-A1F8ABD134F7@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <20050720001954.GB12675@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:42:55PM -0700, David Wheeler wrote:
> On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
> >Adding one to $#ARGV is to make the operation more like how people  
> >think.
> 
> Provided that they think in C.

Provided they don't know about scalar @ARGV.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 19 17:22:52 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:22:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 01:45:35PM -0700, Austin Schutz wrote:
> > Lots of poorly written Perl books (which is to say most of them prior to 
> > 2000) never clearly teach $num_things = @things. 

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE COMMENTING ON THE BELOW!  If you don't know about
"$num = @array" then "$num = $#array + 1" makes sense.

> > Adding one to $#ARGV is to make the operation more like how people think.  
> 
> 	I have to wonder what sort of people you've been associating with
> that think this way. :-)
<trash>


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 19 17:30:59 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:30:59 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Return of clueless
In-Reply-To: <42DD9157.3010909@mailporter.net>
References: <42DD9157.3010909@mailporter.net>
Message-ID: <20050720003059.GD12675@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 04:48:39PM -0700, raa at mailporter.net wrote:
> What am I doing wrong?  Somewhere further back up the Test:: chain is 
> there a way to create/define a "plan" that I haven't found?
> 
> Anyone have a full working example of a TWM script that I can look at?

Its a documentation bug.  You have to set the plan with some other module,
usually Test::More.

	use Test::More tests => 10;
	use Test::WWW::Mechanize;

	...

See http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/Bug.html?id=11257


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From mikeraz at patch.com  Tue Jul 19 19:51:39 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:51:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 01:45:35PM -0700, Austin Schutz wrote:
> > > Lots of poorly written Perl books (which is to say most of them prior to 
> > > 2000) never clearly teach $num_things = @things. 
> 
> PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE COMMENTING ON THE BELOW!  If you don't know about
> "$num = @array" then "$num = $#array + 1" makes sense.

And perlvar is silent on this aspect of Perl.


-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
   Get Fixed:  http://www.dampfixie.org
  The fortune cookie says:
A-Z affectionately,
1 to 10 alphabetically,
from here to eternity without in betweens,
still looking for a custom fit in an off-the-rack world,
sales talk from sales assistants
	when all i want to do is lower your resistance,
no rhythm in cymbals no tempo in drums,
love's on arrival,
she comes when she comes,
right on the target but wide of the mark...


From raa at mailporter.net  Tue Jul 19 21:37:58 2005
From: raa at mailporter.net (Roderick A. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:37:58 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] ppm repository for Test::WWW::Mechanize
In-Reply-To: <7717E302-5DA0-4797-BC19-A1C7404D4E7C@petdance.com>
References: <42DD7271.9020203@mailporter.net>
	<20050719214040.GA14034@petdance.com>
	<42DD7BC9.4020007@mailporter.net>
	<7717E302-5DA0-4797-BC19-A1C7404D4E7C@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <42DDD526.7050007@mailporter.net>

Andy Lester wrote:
>> I didn't think so and was happy as all get out when I found "your"  
>> module.  It is exactly what I need.
> 
> 
> You're saying you found Test::WWW::Mechanize, but had you found  
> WWW::Mechanize first?  What  are you trying to do?

I knew of WWW::Mechanize and was reading Damian Conway's article on 
"Perl Best Practices" on perl.com with the number 2 BP being write the 
tests first.  ( I must appologize to all.  I am not formally trained in 
programming.  One class in the late 60's and then a two of three in the 
early 80's.  Everything from then on has been via the "School of 
Reading, Trying, and Asking" so I don't always "get it" right off. )

Anyway I knew of Test::* but never had a reason to use it.  Up to this 
time I've been coding under fire.  You know get it done ... now.  I'm 
now reviewing my code and trying to clean it up while still dodging 
bullets and making some funtionality changes.

Many of the things I write are web based and I test them using the good 
old fashion way -- click, type, click, type, click.  I needed a method 
to consistantly test changes plus formalizing the testing process seems 
a good way to know how everything actually ties together.

So I was thinking of how to blend them -- Mechanize and Test::* -- and 
found Test::WWW:Mechanize already done.  I just assumed I could pick and 
choose code samples from the docs without doing a lot of reading.


Rod
-- 
---
[Certified Virus free by MailPorter Mail Services.    www.MailPorter.com ]


From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 19 21:41:37 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:41:37 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
Message-ID: <20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 07:51:39PM -0700, Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> And perlvar is silent on this aspect of Perl.

It also doesn't say much about regular expressions, threading, 
object-oriented programming or EBCDIC.

NAME
       perlvar - Perl predefined variables

DESCRIPTION
       Predefined Names

       The following names have special meaning to Perl.

Ya got the wrong man page.  I think you want perldata or perlintro.

           You might be tempted to use "$#array + 1" to tell you how many
           items there are in an array.  Don't bother.  As it happens, using
           @array where Perl expects to find a scalar value ("in scalar con-
           text") will give you the number of elements in the array:

               if (@animals < 5) { ... }


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Jul 20 05:47:01 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:47:01 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> It also doesn't say much about regular expressions, threading, 
> object-oriented programming or EBCDIC.
> 
> NAME
>        perlvar - Perl predefined variables
> 
> DESCRIPTION
>        Predefined Names
> 
>        The following names have special meaning to Perl.

For a topic that confuses new Perl folk this would seem to be something
that should be covered at every available opportunity.  The section on
@ARGV does cover the $# issue:

  @ARGV   The array @ARGV contains the command-line arguments intended
          for the script.  $#ARGV is generally the number of arguments
          minus one, because $ARGV[0] is the first argument, not the 
          program?s command name itself.  See $0 for the command name.

It's incredible easy to expand that to:

  @ARGV   The array @ARGV contains the command-line arguments intended
          for the script. @ARGV evaluated in a scaler context returns
          the number of arguments.  $#ARGV is generally the number of
          arguments minus one, because $ARGV[0] is the first argument,
          not the program?s command name itself.  See $0 for the
          command name.

Which would be a GoodThing considering the trouble that people have 
with the issue.


-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
   Get Fixed:  http://www.dampfixie.org
  The fortune cookie says:
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
		-- Roy Santoro


From david at kineticode.com  Wed Jul 20 07:57:38 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:57:38 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
Message-ID: <66EDB0B3-D2B4-4E00-93A3-7596D657B790@kineticode.com>

On Jul 20, 2005, at 5:47 AM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> It's incredible easy to expand that to:
>
>   @ARGV   The array @ARGV contains the command-line arguments intended
>           for the script. @ARGV evaluated in a scaler context returns
>           the number of arguments.  $#ARGV is generally the number of
>           arguments minus one, because $ARGV[0] is the first argument,
>           not the program?s command name itself.  See $0 for the
>           command name.
>
> Which would be a GoodThing considering the trouble that people have
> with the issue.

Send a patch to p5p at perl.org.

Best,

David

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Jul 20 10:39:25 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:39:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
Message-ID: <1121881165.10279.170.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 05:47 -0700, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

> For a topic that confuses new Perl folk this would seem to be something
> that should be covered at every available opportunity.

I don't understand why.  How is @ARGV different from any other array?
Randomly strewing facts throughout the documentation is a good way to
make them *less* useful, not more.

("Oh, didn't you know that evaluating an array in scalar context gives
you the number of elements in the array?  Go read perlvar, about special
variables, instead of perlintro, which explains all three container
types.")

-- c


From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 20 11:30:33 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:30:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
Message-ID: <20050720183033.GD16999@windhund.schwern.org>

On Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 05:47:01AM -0700, Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> For a topic that confuses new Perl folk this would seem to be something
> that should be covered at every available opportunity.  The section on
> @ARGV does cover the $# issue:

That's thrown in there, in a somewhat obtuse way, to help C programmers 
where ARGV[0] is the command name and ARGV[1] is the first argument.


> Which would be a GoodThing considering the trouble that people have 
> with the issue.

Yes, and while we're at it since @ARGV is global don't forget to talk about
how to localize it!  And because its an array be sure to explain that arrays 
start at 0 and what an index of -1 means.   And be sure to talk about the
difference between an array and a list, people get that confused a lot.
And @ARGV can be popped and pushed and spliced and sliced and shifted and
unshifted so be sure to bring those up.

Oh, and repeat those docs for every other array in perlvar.  @INC and
@+ and @_ and @- and @F.  And then we start in on scalars.

At some point you have to assume the reader has read the introductory texts
otherwise you wind up clogging the docs with repeated tutorial documentation
making it like reading through a legal document with all the repeated, 
verbose prose.

	The Company reserves the right to all inventions, works, plans,
	patents, descriptions and thoughts of the Employee.  The Employee
	waives all rights to all inventions, works, plans, patents,
	descriptions and thoughts.  Should any inventions, works, plans,
	patents, descriptions and thoughts be found illegal in any...

It would be nice if the documentation could be annotated with unobtrusive
references to other parts of the docs sprinkled liberally throughout but
POD doens't support that sort of thing very well.


[1] This one we probably should.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From chris at powells.com  Wed Jul 20 12:23:17 2005
From: chris at powells.com (chris@powells.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON ticket raffle
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0507201221490.10082@vt88.vaqhfgevny.cbjryyf.pbz>


If anyone's interested, Powell's has a
raffle for a free ticket to OSCON:

http://www.powells.com/oscon


From mikeraz at patch.com  Wed Jul 20 17:36:45 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:36:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050720183033.GD16999@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
	<20050720183033.GD16999@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050721003645.GA17259@patch.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> Yes, and while we're at it ...

mrful schwunk gaarl 

<will return after extracting feet from mouth>

 
> [1] This one we probably should.

Which one?


-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
   Get Fixed:  http://www.dampfixie.org
  The fortune cookie says:
nerd pack, n.:
	Plastic pouch worn in breast pocket to keep pens from soiling
	clothes.  Nerd's position in engineering hierarchy can be measured
	by number of pens, grease pencils, and rulers bristling	in his pack.


From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 20 18:15:04 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15:04 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] evil @ARGV syntax
In-Reply-To: <20050721003645.GA17259@patch.com>
References: <1549177D-533F-4810-884D-1ABB57DD487E@sonofhans.net>
	<20050719191403.GC10272@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050719204535.GT30249@gblx.net>
	<20050720002252.GC12675@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720025138.GA21686@patch.com>
	<20050720044137.GB13625@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050720124701.GB1404@patch.com>
	<20050720183033.GD16999@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050721003645.GA17259@patch.com>
Message-ID: <20050721011504.GA21907@windhund.schwern.org>

On Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 05:36:45PM -0700, Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> > [1] This one we probably should.
> 
> Which one?

Mention that shift() defaults to @ARGV outside of a function.  Seems
pertinent.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From marvin at rectangular.com  Thu Jul 21 07:32:20 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:32:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
Message-ID: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>

Greets,

When I presented Sort::External to the group a couple months ago, a  
number of people expressed an interest in seeing the buffer-flush  
triggered by memory consumption rather than the number of items in  
the cache.  I'd like to explore what it would take to add this feature.

In order to calculate the memory consumed by an array of scalars, I  
need to know the memory consumed by each.  Right now,  
Sort::External's feed() method just adds stuff to a buffer and  
flushes if the size of the buffer array (as evaluated in a scalar  
context ;) ) meets or exceeds the -cache_size.

sub feed {
     my $self = shift;
     push @{ $self->{input_cache} }, @_;
     return unless @{ $self->{input_cache} } >= $self->{-cache_size};
     $self->_write_input_cache_to_tempfile;
}

Conceptually, the most straightforward way to figure memory  
consumption is to take the length() of each item, tack on a worst- 
case number for the overhead of a scalar, and add that to a tally  
which triggers a buffer-flush when it grows past a threshold.  There  
are at least five problems with this approach, but I believe they can  
all be addressed.

1) Scalars which don't as yet have a string component (PV, for  
Pointer Value, in the underlying representation) will be needlessly  
forced to acquire one. Note that when these items are regenerated by  
reading back from temp-files, they are going to have a PV component  
anyway.
2) I'm not sure what the worst-case number for the administrative  
overhead of a scalar is.
3) Perl seems to assign memory in unpredictably sized chunks.  It may  
be that the last 50-byte scalar causes Perl to grab another meg of  
memory.
4) length(), which works on utf8 by default, is fairly expensive.
5) length() doesn't tell you about hidden portions of the PV.  (For  
the sake of avoiding extra malloc calls, Perl will sometimes move the  
pointer which indicates where a string begins.  I'm not sure exactly  
when this happens, but I'd guess it's on stuff like substr($foo, 0,  
4, ''); )

Any performance hits we take are mitigated by the fact that  
Sort::External is probably going to be doing a bunch of disk i/o at  
some point.

The first step is to improve the efficiency and reliability of  
figuring out the memory consumed by the PV component of the scalar.   
If we use the bytes pragma, I believe that the efficiency of length()  
improves dramatically, though I haven't tracked down where it is in  
the Perl source code so I can't say that authoritatively.  But we're  
still stuck with the problem of hidden pieces of strings.

Fortunately, at the C level, SvLEN [1] solves all the problems  
associated with length().  It won't add a PV component to the scalar  
if none exists.  It returns the size of the PV, including an extra  
null byte that Perl tacks onto the end, so there's no problem with  
hidden portions of strings.  I believe that it is actually returning  
a number that is stored as part of the C struct for a scalar, so it  
should be nice and fast.

Looks like I'll have to turn feed() into an Inline::C or XS sub with  
considerably more than 4 lines of code, unless someone knows a way to  
expose SvLEN in Perl space.

That leaves me with two remaining problems.

What is the worst-case administrative overhead for a scalar?  Anybody  
know?

Then there's the approximate nature of memory management in Perl.   
I'll solve this by documenting Sort::External's -mem_threshold as an  
imprecise tool.  ;)

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/

[1] From perlapi: "SvLEN -- Returns the size of the string buffer in  
the SV, not including any part attributable to SvOOK. See SvCUR."

From david at kineticode.com  Thu Jul 21 08:16:22 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:16:22 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
In-Reply-To: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
References: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>

On Jul 21, 2005, at 7:32 AM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> Conceptually, the most straightforward way to figure memory
> consumption is to take the length() of each item

Does this help?

   http://search.cpan.org/dist/Devel-Size/Size.pm

Best,

David

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 21 08:48:36 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:48:36 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
In-Reply-To: <5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>
References: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
	<5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>
Message-ID: <200507210848.36610.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from David Wheeler
# on Thursday 21 July 2005 08:16 am:

>> Conceptually, the most straightforward way to figure memory
>> consumption is to take the length() of each item
>
>Does this help?
>
>? ?http://search.cpan.org/dist/Devel-Size/Size.pm

Looks like a good source of info and verification, but maybe not 
something that you want to put in your production code:

  "Devel::Size, because of the way it works, can consume a considerable 
amount of memory as it runs. It will use five pointers, two integers, 
and two bytes worth of storage, plus potential alignment and bucket 
overhead, per thing it looks at."

I think Marvin's scheme is a good lightweight rough-estimate.  Remember 
that it was limiting the cache on number of items.  I think if you can 
provide a rough cap on memory usage and an estimate of how much error 
is typical, that is a huge improvement over the less-informed "number 
of items" cap.

Perl's "bursty" memory allocation should be part of that error.  If 
we're talking about 500MB +/- 5MB by the time all of the counting 
errors are collected that sounds good in exchange for the counting 
being done as quickly as possible.

--Eric
-- 
If the collapse of the Berlin Wall had taught us anything, it was that
socialism alone was not a sustainable economic model.
--Robert Young
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From marvin at rectangular.com  Thu Jul 21 11:35:58 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:35:58 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
In-Reply-To: <200507210848.36610.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
References: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
	<5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>
	<200507210848.36610.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <5B6EC879-EC60-45E0-9ACB-EE78258014F0@rectangular.com>

David Wheeler writes...
>> Does this help?
>>
>>    http://search.cpan.org/dist/Devel-Size/Size.pm

I'd forgotten about that module.  I remembered only that I'd  
conducted a fairly extensive search when writing the code which ended  
up in Sort::External, and had rejected a bunch of options, including  
that one.  But it's time for a second look.

Eric Wilhelm writes...
> Looks like a good source of info and verification, but maybe not
> something that you want to put in your production code:
>
>   "Devel::Size, because of the way it works, can consume a  
> considerable
> amount of memory as it runs. It will use five pointers, two integers,
> and two bytes worth of storage, plus potential alignment and bucket
> overhead, per thing it looks at."

The bummer is that it creates that stuff anew with each call to size 
().  But... happily, it destroys all those variables when size()  
completes.  I believe the caveat above applies primarily in the case  
of assessing the size of a complex data structure.

If I use Devel::Size only to calculate the size of the last scalar in  
sortex object's own cache, the increased memory requirements will be  
negligible.  There'll be a performance hit, but we're only talking  
about calls to 2 XS subs (size() calls out to a helper based on what  
you feed it).  In the context of all the disk i/o Sort::External does  
(assuming that you feed it enough to trigger at least one flush to  
disk), that's probably acceptable.  I'll run some benchmarks.

Gotta say, the idea of avoiding XS/Inline::C code in Sort::External  
is pretty appealing.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From tom.phoenix at gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 10:38:43 2005
From: tom.phoenix at gmail.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:38:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Mostly-Zendo Game Night - Saturday!
Message-ID: <31086b2405072210381be44b35@mail.gmail.com>

Tom and Jenna's Mostly-Zendo Game Night

When: Saturday the 23rd (tomorrow).
The fun starts at 6:30 PM, but get here anytime.

Where: 6815 N Interstate Ave.

Transit: Max Yellow Line's Portland Boulevard stop is nearest; we're
just to the north.

Freeway: From I-5, exit and turn west onto Portland Boulevard to find
our neighborhood.

Parking: free and easy to find on any nearby side street a block or
two off of Interstate Avenue.

Snacks: Please bring a small snack to share, if you can.

Games: We'll have Zendo, of course. Bring your own pyramids and
stones. In case you somehow don't like Zendo, we'll have some other
games (Spin-the-Bottle, Hopscotch, Global Thermonuclear War,... we'll
find something). Or you can bring your favorite game.

Phone: 503-289-6044

Late notice: Yeah, sorry. But now we have a good excuse to host
another game night before the summer is over, so stay tuned and see
whether I get an invitation out on time for that one.

--Tom Phoenix

From marvin at rectangular.com  Sat Jul 23 06:58:30 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:58:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Rich scalars
Message-ID: <01400FC2-3FD1-4264-A5DD-3F0849828523@rectangular.com>

Greets,

With the change to Sort::External to use -mem_threshold as the buffer  
flush trigger, it has become necessary to rework other parts of the  
module which relied on large buffers.  The trickiest section has the  
filestream merging.  I snooped the code in File::Sort,  
File::MergeSort, and Sort::Merge to see if there was something I  
could crib, but the number of dereference ops each required made me  
blanche.  I needed something like the File::Temp object, that could  
both function as a scalar and associate a filehandle.

Blessing a reference to a scalar seemed like a good solution, but  
since the scalar only has one storage slot, associating it with the  
filehandle that would be used to refill the buffer was challenging.

Here's how the code turned out, edited for clarity:

-------------------------------------------------------
{
     ### ...

     my @buffers;
     my $num_packages = 0;

     for my $filehandle (@temp_file_objects) {
         my $holder;
         my $package_name = "Sort::External::Buffer$num_packages";
         $num_packages++;
         my $buff = bless \$holder, $package_name;
         no strict 'refs';
         no warnings 'redefine';
         *{ $packagename . "::next_line" }
             = sub {
                 return unless defined(${ $_[0] } = <$filehandle>)
                   };
         next unless defined $buff->next_line;
         push @buffers, $buff;
     }

     ### ...

     ### Clear out the closures so that we don't leak memory.
     for (0 .. $num_packages) {
         *{ "Sort::External::Buffer$_" . "::next_line" } = sub {};
     }
}
-------------------------------------------------------

Each scalar is blessed into a unique package.  Calling next_line()  
loads the next buffer item into the scalar object's sole storage  
slot.  Each next_item() sub is a closure which stores a unique temp  
filehandle.

It is theoretically possible to associate an unlimited number of  
attributes and methods with a blessed scalar using this technique.

Comments?

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Mon Jul 25 13:38:07 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:38:07 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program
Message-ID: <20050725203807.GE964@joshheumann.com>

----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----

From: Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com>
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, July 22
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:38:44 -0700
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:leave-usergroups-5402837W at newsletter.oreilly.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on codepirates.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable 
	version=3.0.3

================================================================
O'Reilly UG Program News--Just for User Group Leaders
July 22, 2005
================================================================
-Does you Group Podcast?
-Going to OSCON?
-Put Up an O'Reilly OSCON Banner, Get a Free Book
-Promotional Material Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book Info
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Review Books are Available 
Copies of our books are available for your members to review--
send me an email and please include the book's ISBN number on 
your request. Let me know if you need your book by a certain date. 
Allow at least four weeks for shipping. 


***Please Send Copies of Your Book Reviews
Email me a copy of your newsletter or book review.
For tips and suggestions on writing book reviews, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html


***Discount information
Don't forget to remind your members about the 30% discount on O'Reilly, 
No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, and Syngress 
books. Just use code DSUG.


***Group purchases with better discounts are available
Please let me know if you are interested and I can put you in 
touch with our sales department.

----------------------------------------------------------------
General News
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Does Your Group Podcast?
We have a new book coming out in August called "Podcasting Hacks"--
let me know if your group is currently podcasting or if you are
interested in starting your own podcast. I have also included two
articles on podcasting below in the news for members section.


***Are you going to OSCON in Portland, Oregon this year?
Please let me know!


***Put Up an O'Reilly OSCON Banner, Get a Free Book
We're looking for user groups to display our conference banner on their
web sites. If you send me the link to your group's site with our
O'Reilly 2005 Open Source Convention banner, we'll send you the
O'Reilly book of your choice.

OSCON Banners:
http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/oscon2005/


***Promotional Material Available:
The following items are available for your next meeting.
Numbers are limited so please don't wait too long.

Let me know the item and the amount you'd like
and I'll do my best.

-30% UG Discount bookmarks
-O'Reilly Open Source Convention Brochures
-MAKE Magazine (limit one per group)
-LinuxWorld Passes (Paper)

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
July 22, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook
-Write Portable Code
-Home Networking: The Missing Manual
-Perl Best Practices
-Talk Is Cheap
-Switching to VoIP
-Ending Spam
-Swing Hacks
-Word Annoyances
-Advanced Perl Programming, Second Edition
-MAKE Magazine Subscriptions Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Jeremy Zawodny ("High Performance MySQL"), Open Tech 2005, 
 London, UK--July 23
-UKUUG Linux 2005 Conference, University of Wales--August 4-7
-O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 8-11
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Visit the 2005 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Exhibit Hall for Free
-Register for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, 
 Portland, OR--August 1-5
-Registration is Open for EuroOSCON
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-New Annoyances Central Site
-O'Reilly Nominated for Lovemarks
-Choosing the Best Star Atlases
-Information Security with Colin Percival 
-Calculating the True Price of Software
-Learning Lab: Save 50% on the Open Source Programming 
 Certificate Series
-Building an OpenBSD Live CD 
-The Virtual Referral: Mitigating Risk by Hiring Open Source
  Developers 
-PHP 5.1's Killer Features
-David Pogue Photos from Mug Event
-Programming with Spotlight
-An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 3 
-How to End Wars Between Testers and Programmers
-Unit Testing in .NET Projects
-Making Internet Phone Calls Using Skype 
-Taking JUnit Out of the Box
-What Is Business Process Modeling?
-What Is Podcasting?
-Gary Garritan: A Personal Orchestra for Everyone
-My Five Favorite Soft Synths
-HOW TO Make Enhanced Podcasts
-Phil Torrone on "Attack of the Show"
-MAKE Volume 03 at the Press

================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html

Don't forget, you can receive 30% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress book you 
purchase directly from O'Reilly.
Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938.
http://www.oreilly.com/

***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at 
least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer 
applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico.
For more details, go to:
http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html

----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100922
With this series of hands-on labs, you'll learn how Perl's test tools
work and how to use them effectively. Once mastered, these lessons will
help you ensure low-level code correctness, reduce software development
cycle time, and ease maintenance burdens. You don't have to be a diehard
Perl developer to use this book; you just have to want to do your job a
little bit better.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/

Chapter 4, "Distributing Your Tests (and Code)", is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/chapter/index.html


***Write Portable Code
Publisher: No Starch
ISBN: 1593270569
This handy book contains the lessons, patterns, and knowledge for
developing cross-platform software that programmers usually must acquire
through sheer trial and error. Targeted at intermediate-to-advanced
programmers, it is a valuable resource for designers of cross-platform
software, programmers looking to extend their skills to additional
platforms, and programmers faced with the tricky task of moving code
from one platform to another.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270569/


***Home Networking: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059600558X
Using clear language, straightforward explanations, and a dash of humor,
this Missing Manual shows you how to do everything you need to set up a
home network. Including both Windows and Mac info, it will help you
understand the difference between what you need to know to create and
use your home network and what's best left to system administrators.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/homenettmm/

Chapter 5, "Using the Network with Windows Computers," is available
online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/homenettmm/chapter/index.html


***Perl Best Practices
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596001738
This collection of 256 guidelines on the art of coding will help you
write the best Perl code you possibly can. The guidelines cover code
layout, naming conventions, choice of data and control structures,
program decomposition, interface design and implementation, modularity,
object orientation, error handling, testing, and debugging. Offering
only guidelines that actually work, this book presents coherent and
widely applicable suggestions based on real-world experience.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/

Chapter 9, "Subroutines," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/chapter/index.html


***Talk Is Cheap
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009607
A straightforward, quick introduction to the ins and outs of using VoIP
and other internet telephone options, this book details how to make the
switch and what the tradeoffs will be. In addition, you will learn
advanced techniques, including how to turn your Palm or Pocket PC into
an internet phone and how to work with Wi-Fi phones and videophones.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/talk/

Chapter 3, "Free Internet Phone Features That You're Paying For Now," is
available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/talk/chapter/index.html


***Switching to VoIP
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008686
Based on real-world experience, this handy manual addresses the most
common VoIP migration challenges. Learn how to build your own VoIP
system, install it, and begin making calls. You'll also explore the
strengths and weaknesses of circuit-switched and packet-switched
networks, how VoIP systems impact network infrastructure, as well as
solutions for common challenges involved with IP voice migrations. Ideal
for IT managers, network engineers, and system administrators.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/switchingvoip/

Chapter 14, "Traditional Apps on the Converged Network," is available
online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/switchingvoip/chapter/index.html


***Ending Spam
Publisher: No Starch
ISBN: 1593270526
This landmark title describes, in-depth, how statistical filtering is
being used by next-generation spam filters to identify and filter spam,
how spam filtering works, and how language classification and machine
learning combine to produce remarkably accurate spam filters. Readers
gain a complete understanding of the mathematical approaches used in
today's spam filters, decoding, tokenization, the use of various
algorithms, and the benefits of using open source solutions to end spam.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270526/


***Swing Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009070
Packed with programming lessons, this book will show you how to extend
Swing's rich component set in advanced ways. The hacks touch upon the
entire Swing gamut--tables, trees, sliders, spinners, progress bars,
internal frames, and text components. You'll learn how to filter lists,
power up trees and tables, add drag-and-drop support, and generally
increase your competency with interface-building tools.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/swinghks/

Sample Hack 89, "Fun with Keyboard Lights," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/swinghks/chapter/index.html


***Word Annoyances
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009542
This helpful book offers to-the-point solutions to your most vexing
editing, formatting, printing, faxing, and scanning problems. It covers
everything from installation and templates to tables, columns, and
graphics. It also provides a gentle introduction to the power of macros
so you can slay your annoyances by the truckload. The fixes will work
with most versions of Word, including Word 2000, 2002 (XP), and 2003.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wordannoyances/

Chapter 3, "Text Entry and Editing," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wordannoyances/chapter/index.html


***Advanced Perl Programming, Second Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596004567
O'Reilly's most high-level Perl tutorial to date, this book teaches you
all the complex techniques for production-ready Perl programs. This
completely updated guide clearly explains concepts such as
introspection, overriding built-ins, extending Perl's object-oriented
model, and testing your code for greater stability. Whatever your
current level of Perl expertise, this book will help you push your
skills to the next level.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/advperl2/

Chapter 3, "Templating Tools," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/advperl2/chapter/index.html


***MAKE Magazine Subscriptions Available
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--the first one plus
four more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for charter subscribers: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
https://www.pubservice.com/MK/Subnew.aspx?PC=MK&PK=M5ZUGLA

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
***For more events, please see:
http://events.oreilly.com/


***Jeremy Zawodny ("High Performance MySQL"), Open Tech 2005, 
 London, UK--July 23
This event features "Yahoo Troublemaker" and author Jeremy Zawodny.
O'Reilly will be there selling books.
http://www.ukuug.org/events/opentech2005/


***UKUUG Linux 2005 Conference, University of Wales--August 4-7
O'Reilly will be there selling books.
http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2005/


***O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 8-11
Stop by our booth to check out our latest Linux and open source titles.
We'll also have info on some of our groovy new projects like Make,
Safari, and SafariU.
Moscone Center, Booth #818
http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/live/12/events/12SFO05A

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***Visit the 2005 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Exhibit Hall for Free
This year's OSCON Exhibit Hall is the largest in our seven-year history,
and will feature a virtual "who's who" of open source companies. From
exciting start-ups such as ActiveGrid, BlackDuck Software, LogicBlaze, 
MarvelIT, Merchere, Palamida, SpikeSource, Sourcebeat, SourceLabs, and
SugarCRM to industry giants like Apple Computer, Computer Associates,
Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, Sun Microsystems, and Yahoo!, you'll
find the latest software and hardware offerings for your enterprise,
small or large. To register for your free exhibit hall pass, please
visit:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05


***Register for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, 
 Portland, OR--August 1-5
OSCON 2005 explores three deep trends affecting open source: the
commoditization of software, network-enabled collaboration, and software
customizability. Join us at this essential gathering of open source
leaders and practitioners of every persuasion to exchange ideas and push
the boundaries of vital open source technologies. This year, we
introduce the Open Source Business Review, along with a host of other
exciting presentations and events.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/

Use code "os05grpusr" when you register, and receive 15% off the
registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2005/create/ord_os05


***Registration is Open for EuroOSCON
Join developers, systems and network administrators, and IT managers at
the very first O'Reilly European Open Source Convention in Amsterdam on
October 17-20. EuroOSCON will explore the best and newest open source
technologies, particularly for companies, governments, and nonprofits.
EuroOSCON showcases the diversity in open source while maintaining a
practical edge.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/eurooscon/

User Group discounts are available, email marsee at oreilly.com for more
information.

To register for the conference, go to:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/eurooscon/create/ord_euos05

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***New Annoyances Central Site
O'Reilly has just launched the new Annoyances Central weblog site,
focused on topics and issues from the Annoyances Series books. Check out
the Daily Fix, the Experts' Blog, and Robert's Rant for the most
annoying annoyances--and their fixes, of course. You can even subscribe
to the RSS feed and have piping-hot annoyances delivered straight 
to you.
http://www.annoyancescentral.com/


***O'Reilly Nominated for Lovemarks
The creators of Lovemarks wondered what makes some brands wildly
inspirational and came up with Lovemarks, a celebration of respect and
loyalty. "Take a brand away and people will find a replacement. Take a
Lovemark away and people will protest its absence." Folks can nominate
brands that inspire "loyalty beyond reason," and we're thrilled to be in
the mix. Show your love!
http://www.lovemarks.com/lm/read.php?LID=2603


***Choosing the Best Star Atlases
Whether you're an observer of deep-sky objects with your 20-inch
Dobsonian reflector, or an amateur astronomer enjoying a simple night of
stargazing with your binoculars, it's helpful to know which star atlases
best suit your needs. Avid astronomers Robert and Barbara Thompson
describe the atlases they use and their reasons for choosing them.
Robert and Barbara are the authors of Astronomy Hacks.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/07/18/staratlases.html


***Information Security with Colin Percival 
The recent disclosure of side-channel techniques to retrieve
cryptographic secrets on hyperthreading machines caused stirs in
security and operating system development communities. Colin Percival, a
FreeBSD security officer, reported the vulnerability and weathered the
questions and criticisms. Michael W. Lucas recently interviewed him on
this vulnerability, vendors' responses, and security research.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/07/21/Big_Scary_Daemons.html

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***Calculating the True Price of Software 
Businesses have long viewed support and maintenance as essential
components of software. Open source business models often focus on
charging for support and customization. Is there an economic model that
can demonstrate the true worth of a piece of software and the option for
support, maintenance, and upgrades? Robert Lefkowitz argues that open
source exposes the true value of software itself as, essentially, worth
less in comparison to support and maintenance.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/07/21/software_pricing.html


***Learning Lab: Save 50% on the Open Source Programming Certificate
 Series
Our Open Source Programming Certificate Series will teach you the core
technical skills necessary to fully understand programming using Linux
or Unix operating systems, languages, libraries, and databases.
Completion of this series also earns you a Certificate of Professional
Development through the University of Illinois Office of Continuing
Education.  For two weeks only, save 50% on all Open Source Programing
Certificate Series classes. Offer ends July 31st.
http://www.oreilly.com/redirector.csp?link=UAOSP&type=news


***Building an OpenBSD Live CD 
Linux isn't the only operating system that boots and runs off a CD.
OpenBSD does as well. Kevin Lo uses his for didactic purposes, but this
is a good example for taking your desktop or firewall along with you.
Here's how to build and customize an OpenBSD installation on a CD.


***The Virtual Referral: Mitigating Risk by Hiring Open Source
 Developers 
Hiring a new employee is almost always a risk, and hiring the wrong
employee can prove a costly mistake for managers. Brian Fitzpatrick
suggests you hire an open source programmer. Find out why doing so
mitigates the risks involved in hiring. Meet Brian at O'Reilly's Open
Source Convention, where he'll be leading a Subversion tutorial and a
session on switching from CVS to Subversion. 
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/07/14/osdevelopers.html


***PHP 5.1's Killer Features
Learn about PHP Data Objects, perhaps the greatest new feature in 
PHP 5.1.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=274359

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***David Pogue Photos from our recent MUG event at the Stanford Linear
Accelerator Center:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16228484 at N00/sets/625100/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wdn2/sets/625173/
(Special Thanks to Don Nelson of DVMUG for sending these along.)


***Programming with Spotlight
The API for Spotlight offers highly advanced search capabilities. In
fact, you can develop some of the very features of Tiger we've already
grown to love using Spotlight's API. In this piece, Matthew Russell will
ease you into Spotlight programming from a Cocoa dev perspective,
showing you how to make your applications Spotlight enabled
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/07/12/spotlight.html


***An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 3 
In Part 3 of this Tiger Terminal introduction, you'll learn some helpful
commands that you can use to view information about your network,
including netstat, nslookup, traceroute, and more.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/07/05/terminal3.html


***How to End Wars Between Testers and Programmers 
There's a natural conflict between testers and programmers because of
the difference in perspective each role has. The best way to end
struggles is to redefine the goals of the work so that their roles can
be collaborative, not adversarial. In this article, Scott Berkun draws
upon his years of project-leading experience to provide some inside tips
for managing your development team. Scott is the author of The Art of
Project Management.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/07/08/dev_team.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Unit Testing in .NET Projects 
Now is a pretty exciting time for unit testing in .NET. Tremendous
progress is being made on several fronts: IDE integration, process
integration, and new test fixtures. Jay Flowers and Andrew Stopford
explain how to use Visual Studio's new integrated unit testing, as well
as the NUnit and MbUnit testing frameworks.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/07/18/unittesting_2005.html


***Making Internet Phone Calls Using Skype 
Skype lets you use the internet to make phone calls to other Skype users
and also to regular telephones. Wei-Meng Lee shows you how to set it up
and start talking.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/07/19/skype.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Taking JUnit Out of the Box 
JUnit is practically ubiquitous among Java developers as a way to test
code, but it's somewhat limited by the fact that it's only meant to run
in one JVM on one box, hampering its usefulness when developing
distributed applications. In this article, Amir Shevat shows how the
open source JUnit extension Pisces helps JUnit overcome this limitation.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/07/13/pisces.html


***What Is Business Process Modeling? 
Business Process Modeling (BPM) is a set of technologies and standards
for the design, execution, administration, and monitoring of business
processes. In this article, Mike Havey, author of Essential Business
Process Modeling, briefly describes the state of BPM today and the BPM
standards, then builds an ideal BPM architecture using the example of a
retailer process. 
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/07/20/businessprocessmodeling.
html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***What Is Podcasting?
So, you're ready to hop on the podcasting bandwagon, but you're not sure
how to get started? This article by Phillip Torrone briefly describes
what podcasting is and the software you'll need, then takes you right to
the fun with a comprehensive step-by-step guide to podcast production.
>From recording to editing to publishing and syndicating your podcasts,
Phillip covers everything you need to know to serve up your first
podcasts.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/07/20/WhatIsPodcasting.html


***Gary Garritan: A Personal Orchestra for Everyone
Producer Gary Garritan has made it his mission to put a high-quality
digital orchestra in your hands--along with extensive free training. 
Hear how composers have seized the opportunity.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/07/20/garritan.html


***My Five Favorite Soft Synths
Looking for sonic inspiration? Synthesizer guru Jim Aikin reveals his
top five virtual instruments, explains why they're great, and shares
custom MP3 examples.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/07/13/topsynths.html

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***HOW TO make Enhanced Podcasts (Images, Links, and More with Audio)
Apple's new iTunes 4.9 allows you to view (and listen to) "enhanced
podcasts." These are audio files that can have slideshows, URLs and some
cool features we have discovered. Here's how to get, make and all you
need to know about enhanced podcasts! As a bonus, MAKE has put together
some fun ideas they think many might use.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/07/how_to_make_enh.html#more


***Phil Torrone on "Attack of the Show"
Here's the video of MAKE's Associate Editor Phillip Torrone on G4TV's
Attack of the Show. The show aired on Friday, July 15. He showed off
some user submitted projects, hacks, mods, and blew up stuff with a high
powered green laser.
http://downloads.oreilly.com/make/g4tv.mov


***MAKE Volume 03 at the Press
The third volume of MAKE magazine is at the press, and we have the
Flickr photo stream to prove it. Our designers signed off on the final
cover and raved that this is the hottest volume yet. Don't be left 
coveting thy neighbor's MAKE, and subscribe now!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kirk22/sets/612189/


***For more information on MAKE, go to:
http://www.makezine.com/


================================================
>From Your Peers
================================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
groups around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi

Until next time--

Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly 
1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
================================================================

----- End forwarded message -----

From marvin at rectangular.com  Tue Jul 26 10:58:34 2005
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:58:34 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
In-Reply-To: <5B6EC879-EC60-45E0-9ACB-EE78258014F0@rectangular.com>
References: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
	<5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>
	<200507210848.36610.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<5B6EC879-EC60-45E0-9ACB-EE78258014F0@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <E8B409C9-18B5-4CB2-818F-E98329163388@rectangular.com>

David Wheeler writes...

>> Does this help?
>>
>>    http://search.cpan.org/dist/Devel-Size/Size.pm

Devel::Size has worked out well.

The only downside is that it looks like it fails 1 out of 13 smoke  
tests, so that failure will cascade onto Sort::External.

Eric Wilhelm writes...

> Looks like a good source of info and verification, but maybe not
> something that you want to put in your production code:
>
>   "Devel::Size, because of the way it works, can consume a
> considerable
> amount of memory as it runs. It will use five pointers, two integers,
> and two bytes worth of storage, plus potential alignment and bucket
> overhead, per thing it looks at."

The extra storage overhead turns out not to be all that much.

In the new version of Sort::External, sortex objects track of the  
size of the input cache by calling total_size(\@_) every time you feed 
() them.

I tried two different approaches with a c. 10_000-element source  
array (each item a 60-character string): feeding the items to the  
sortex object one by one, and feeding them all at once.  I set up two  
long Benchmark loops, with the one_by_one approach first.

Watching top, I saw the memory consumption of the process stabilize  
at 7528k during the one_by_one phase, then rise to a plateau of 8072k  
during the
all_at_once phase.  That's acceptable.

The performance penalty, as anticipated, diminishes in importance one  
tempfiles are required.  If you don't hit disk, and you're feeding  
items one-by-one, using total_size makes the process take twice as  
long.  But if you hit disk, the performance penalty is around 20%,  
and it drops to around 6% if you feed the items all at once.  Those  
numbers will drop further on larger sorts, which require more merge  
stages and disk i/o.

========================================================
Sort::External version 0.10_5
========================================================
cache_level_one_by_one:           20.503  wallclock secs
mem_thresh_one_by_one:            40.8194 wallclock secs

cache_level_all_at_once:          11.5616 wallclock secs
mem_thresh_all_at_once:           13.9285 wallclock secs

cache_level_hit_disk_one_by_one:  57.9412 wallclock secs
mem_thresh_hit_disk_one_by_one:   69.1299 wallclock secs

cache_level_hit_disk_all_at_once: 45.5628 wallclock secs
mem_thresh_hit_disk_all_at_once:  48.1753 wallclock secs
========================================================

If that's the price to pay for enabling -mem_threshold, I'll buy.

Putting -mem_threshold in Sort::External has actually sped up  
Search::Kinosearch::Kindexer, which had been flushing to disk too  
often under the old scheme of flush-at-10_000-items.  Using - 
mem_threshold took the guesswork out of setting a flush-trigger.

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/


From psmythe-lists at prostructure.com  Tue Jul 26 11:03:30 2005
From: psmythe-lists at prostructure.com (Brandon Psmythe)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:03:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Job Opening : unix/linux systems administrator
Message-ID: <42E67AF2.9050605@prostructure.com>

Hello,

ProStructure Consulting is currently looking for a mid level Linux/Unix 
systems administrator.  The formal job descriptions can be found here:
     http://www.prostructure.com/jobs

In general we are looking for folks with experience in mid to large 
corporate environments, supporting critical 24x7 applications, and 
handles stress well.  All positions require customer interaction, so 
good communication skills and professional presentation are also important.

thanks,
     brandon
-- 
-A. Brandon Psmythe
ProStructure Consulting             http://www.prostructure.com
Network and Security Consulting           phone: (503) 288-1566
                "Crafting Connectivity that Matters"

From david at kineticode.com  Tue Jul 26 11:18:45 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:18:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Measuring memory consumption of scalars
In-Reply-To: <E8B409C9-18B5-4CB2-818F-E98329163388@rectangular.com>
References: <3314DB9F-F77E-4611-9110-3252593F82D2@rectangular.com>
	<5609B983-BCBF-4E8F-BB73-80A9147A7CFE@kineticode.com>
	<200507210848.36610.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>
	<5B6EC879-EC60-45E0-9ACB-EE78258014F0@rectangular.com>
	<E8B409C9-18B5-4CB2-818F-E98329163388@rectangular.com>
Message-ID: <C8C1D6A8-88DF-4A03-9451-DCBA6976DA64@kineticode.com>

On Jul 26, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> Devel::Size has worked out well.
>
> The only downside is that it looks like it fails 1 out of 13 smoke
> tests, so that failure will cascade onto Sort::External.

I've sent Dan the links to the archive. He says he'll check it out.

Best,

David

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Tue Jul 26 16:29:56 2005
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:29:56 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
Message-ID: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>

Either chromatic's too modest to post it, or I missed his email.  Either
way, he has a new book on testing!

Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/

J

From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Tue Jul 26 16:44:36 2005
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:44:36 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <20050726234436.39882.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> Either chromatic's too modest to post it, or I missed his email.  Either
> way, he has a new book on testing!
> 
> Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook:
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/

I've ordered the book for work but we haven't received it yet.

I read the sample chapter and it's brilliant: really clear,
easy to follow, and seemed 100% error-free (a rarity).

Oh, and I love the "formula" way each section is laid out:

* Section Intro
* How do I do that?
* What just happened?
* What about... (Q&A)

with annotations down the right hand side. This layout is so
effective I'm surprised it hasn't been done before -- ok, so
probably it has, it's just that I haven't seen it before. :-)
Anyone know who invented this layout style? I've already
started using it for work documentation.

/-\


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From jonlevitre at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 26 16:44:39 2005
From: jonlevitre at yahoo.com (Jon LeVitre)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:44:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>

An O'Reilly book with no animal on the cover.  That'll make referring
to it a problem.  Are we gonna call it the coffee stain book?

--- Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:

> Either chromatic's too modest to post it, or I missed his email. 
> Either
> way, he has a new book on testing!
> 
> Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook:
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/
> 
> J
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 26 17:16:45 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:16:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 04:44:39PM -0700, Jon LeVitre wrote:
> An O'Reilly book with no animal on the cover.  That'll make referring
> to it a problem.  Are we gonna call it the coffee stain book?

Maybe I don't drink coffee.  Maybe its tea.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Ahh email, my old friend.  Do you know that revenge is a dish that is best 
served cold?  And it is very cold on the Internet!

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 26 18:24:52 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 04:44:39PM -0700, Jon LeVitre wrote:
> > An O'Reilly book with no animal on the cover.  That'll make
> referring
> > to it a problem.  Are we gonna call it the coffee stain book?
> 
> Maybe I don't drink coffee.  Maybe its tea.

It's coffee.  Coffee is God.  Real developers worship coffee.  Do not
diss coffee.  You're a freak.

Actually, if the image is lifesize, it can't be coffee.  Real coffee is
served in a big @$$ mug.  This leads me to conclude that real
developers didn't have much to do with the layout of the book. 
However, it's still an awesome book.  I strongly encourage everyone to
pick it up.  I definitely learned things from it.

Cheers,
Ovid 
/me has nothing worthwhile to contribute, as usual.

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul 26 18:30:07 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 26 Jul 2005 18:30:07 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Ovid" == Ovid  <publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com> writes:

Ovid> It's coffee.  Coffee is God.  Real developers worship coffee.  Do not
Ovid> diss coffee.  You're a freak.

s/Real developers/Hacks/ :)

/me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 26 18:39:51 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:39:51 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 06:30:07PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> /me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.

You're not missing much.  Tastes like wet, burnt wood chips.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
'All anyone gets in a mirror is themselves,' she said. 'But what you
gets in a good gumbo is everything.'
	-- "Witches Abroad" by Terry Prachett

From jkeroes at eli.net  Tue Jul 26 18:58:10 2005
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:58:10 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>


> Ovid> It's coffee.  Coffee is God.  Real developers worship  
> coffee.  Do not
> Ovid> diss coffee.  You're a freak.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 06:30:07PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> s/Real developers/Hacks/ :)
>>
>> /me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.

"Windows is the best OS!"
"No, Linux!"
"No, OSX!"

If I only used Windows, never having tried any alternatives, and told  
you it was the best OS out there, would you accept that as valid?


On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> You're not missing much.  Tastes like wet, burnt wood chips.

That's "wet, burnt coffee-flavored wood chips of JOY" to you, Mister.

J.

PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both Schwern's  
tea *and* Heumann's coffee. 

From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Jul 26 19:20:37 2005
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:20:37 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <1122430838.7487.136.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 18:39 -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> You're not missing much.  Tastes like wet, burnt wood chips.

<on_topic>So does the book, actually.</on_topic>

-- c


From randall at sonofhans.net  Tue Jul 26 19:30:04 2005
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:30:04 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
Message-ID: <7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>

On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:58 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote:

> PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both Schwern's
> tea *and* Heumann's coffee.

heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually.  but thanks to working with  
me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)

r


From khamar at scienceprofessionals.com  Tue Jul 26 19:31:31 2005
From: khamar at scienceprofessionals.com (Kyle Hamar)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:31:31 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>

On Tuesday 26 July 2005 05:16 pm, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> Maybe I don't drink coffee.  Maybe its tea.

On closer inspection, I'm sure those are Lucky Lab beer stains.

My vote is for the "Lucky Lab beer stained engineers notebook of perl" 

... ok well that is not very catchy. Back to the pub to rethink that title.

Kyle

From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au  Tue Jul 26 19:43:21 2005
From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:43:21 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael G Schwern wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 06:30:07PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > /me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.
> 
> You're not missing much.  Tastes like wet, burnt wood chips.

Only when made with soy milk.

Anyone who drinks tea probably lurks around the hippie-commie-traitor
section of his local Portland supermarket looking for quinoa.

My vote is for coffee. After all, it was standard issue white coffee
mugs thrown by Jon Orwant (not tea cups).

/-\



		
____________________________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Photos: Now with unlimited storage 
http://au.photos.yahoo.com

From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 26 19:54:50 2005
From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:54:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050727025450.92123.qmail@web60821.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Andrew Savige <ajsavige at yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> Anyone who drinks tea probably lurks around the hippie-commie-traitor
> section of his local Portland supermarket looking for quinoa.

Actually, that's a pretty accurate depiction of Schwern.  He eats a lot
of quinoa.  Of course, aside from the quinoa bit, that's a moderately
accurate description of my coffee-loving $self (though I would say
"hippie-capitalist-traitor").

Cheers,
Ovid

-- 
If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send
follow up questions to the list.

Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/

From brendan at hollyking.org  Tue Jul 26 20:35:09 2005
From: brendan at hollyking.org (brendan@hollyking.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:37:09 +0002
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>
Message-ID: <20050727033514.GH30400@hollyking.org>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 07:31:31PM -0700, Kyle Hamar wrote:
> On closer inspection, I'm sure those are Lucky Lab beer stains.

Dare I add more fuel to the fire by mentioning that I'm an unforgiven
addict of the pop/soda/coke vein.  Nothing better than carbs, caffeine
and carbonation in the morning.  ;)

-- 
There is no end to the mystery of the tides.
	-- Hilaire Belloe

From ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 26 20:42:18 2005
From: ewilhelm at sbcglobal.net (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:42:18 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] espresso snobs unite
In-Reply-To: <7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <200507262042.18874.ewilhelm@sbcglobal.net>

# from Randall Hansen
# on Tuesday 26 July 2005 07:30 pm:

>heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually. ?but thanks to working with ?
>me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)

Really?  We should all meet at stumptown one of these days and have a 
snob-off over some ristretto esspressi.  Maybe that would make for 
slightly more lucid conversation than the lucky lab.

"Real coffee" is served in a very small cup.

And, Re: woodchips:

  http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/schomertable28.html

  "Starbucks has chosen very dark roasts to be their defining style. 
This is very smart for a large chain because darker roasts offer a 
stable recognizable flavor:  carbon, which is easy to reproduce 
consistently on an espresso machine."

--Eric
-- 
The opinions expressed in this e-mail were randomly generated by
the computer and do not necessarily reflect the views of its owner.
--Management
---------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------

From mikeraz at patch.com  Tue Jul 26 21:04:25 2005
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:04:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>
Message-ID: <20050727040425.GC5354@patch.com>

Kyle Hamar wrote:
> On closer inspection, I'm sure those are Lucky Lab beer stains.
> 
> My vote is for the "Lucky Lab beer stained engineers notebook of perl" 

It's the Lucky Lab Blue Book, or the Blue Book to those without the LL
pleasure.

-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
   Get Fixed:  http://www.dampfixie.org
  The fortune cookie says:
Microsoft is not the answer.
Microsoft is the question.
NO (or Linux) is the answer.
	-- Taken from a .signature from someone from the UK, source unknown


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Jul 26 21:03:05 2005
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:03:05 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050727040305.GB5354@patch.com>

Andrew Savige wrote:
> Anyone who drinks tea probably lurks around the hippie-commie-traitor
> section of his local Portland supermarket looking for quinoa.

Quinoa? Quinoa!  How is it I lived with my vegetarian sweetie for for
years and had to spend a weekend in Brieghtenbush to enjoy quinoa?

Americans drink coffee because it was the patriotic thing to do after
the Boston Tea Party. 

But Randal's never, __never__, had coffee?  What revelation is next?
Never had single malt scotch?  A home brewed beer?  A virgin?

Mind boggles.


-- 
    Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
  Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
   Get Fixed:  http://www.dampfixie.org
  The fortune cookie says:
Me he enterado de todo por los peri?dicos. -- Felipe Gonz?lez --


From david at kineticode.com  Wed Jul 27 08:31:32 2005
From: david at kineticode.com (David Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:31:32 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <4454A75E-C45C-4B17-BEDF-7D897E9FC578@kineticode.com>

On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:30 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> /me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.

Randal has beer for breakfast, we all know that!

D



From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Jul 27 08:19:31 2005
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book - layout
In-Reply-To: <20050726234436.39882.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234436.39882.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050727151931.GA5543@gate.kl-ic.com>

Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> Either chromatic's too modest to post it, or I missed his email.  Either
> way, he has a new book on testing!
> 
> Perl Testing: A Developer's Notebook:
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltestingadn/
 
On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 09:44:36AM +1000, Andrew Savige wrote:
> I've ordered the book for work but we haven't received it yet.
> 
> I read the sample chapter and it's brilliant: really clear,
> easy to follow, and seemed 100% error-free (a rarity).
> 
> Oh, and I love the "formula" way each section is laid out:
...

The text does look well thought out.  However, it appears that for some
overpaid-art-school-graduate-who-doesn't-care-about-readability-or-
printing-cost reason, they decided to print this excellent text on
top of a light blue grid, I guess because it looks like a "notebook". 
I would get a headache trying to read it.  Does the online Safari
Bookshelf version look the same?  I could download it during OSCON,
and print it out without the graphcrud - then pay chromatic and Ian
and Tim the royalties.

Tangentally, is the current trend to print text in jarring, hard-to-read
ways considered desirable by many under-30 folk?  Is this some sort of
counter-reaction to improvements in printing and display technology? 
Or is it just to piss off people with vision problems?  

Keith

... and now, back to the discussion on Coffee vs. Tea .   The assumption
is that those stains are spilled beverage-of-choice, when they are
actually the debris caused by smashing a large bug with the bottom of
an empty mug.  So is an empty coffee mug better than an empty tea mug?

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Jul 26 20:13:30 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:13:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 07:30:04PM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
> On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:58 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote:
> > PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both Schwern's
> > tea *and* Heumann's coffee.
> 
> heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually.  but thanks to working with  
> me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)

Real men drink TURKISH COFFEE [1] from BRASS THIMBLES because to drink more
than that would cause a ball of pure blackness to burn through your stomach,
the seat you're on, the floor, the ground and eventually wind up embedded 
in the firey core of the Earth!

[1] Any relationship between Turkish Coffee and the more typical mug of
wet, smoke-damaged cardboard is purely coincidental.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
You are wicked and wrong to have broken inside and peeked at the
implementation and then relied upon it.
	-- tchrist in <31832.969261130 at chthon>

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 10:00:37 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:00:37 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<20050727024321.23952.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050727170037.GC24670@windhund.schwern.org>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 12:43:21PM +1000, Andrew Savige wrote:
> --- Michael G Schwern wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 06:30:07PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > > /me drinks tea, never having had a cup o joe in his life.
> > 
> > You're not missing much.  Tastes like wet, burnt wood chips.
> 
> Only when made with soy milk.
> 
> Anyone who drinks tea probably lurks around the hippie-commie-traitor
> section of his local Portland supermarket looking for quinoa.
> 
> My vote is for coffee. After all, it was standard issue white coffee
> mugs thrown by Jon Orwant (not tea cups).

If those measly little things are standard issue coffee mugs then I rest my
case.  They didn't even dent the wall!  I think Jon made this statement quite
clear when he SHATTERED those coffee mugs.

I drink tea from a big, thick, old, faded Bugs Bunny mug.  Is there anything
more MANLY?  I think not.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Insulting our readers is part of our business model.
        http://somethingpositive.net/sp07122005.shtml

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 10:02:21 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:02:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book
In-Reply-To: <20050727040425.GC5354@patch.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234439.75650.qmail@web52712.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050727001645.GA23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<200507261931.31592.khamar@scienceprofessionals.com>
	<20050727040425.GC5354@patch.com>
Message-ID: <20050727170221.GD24670@windhund.schwern.org>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 09:04:25PM -0700, Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> Kyle Hamar wrote:
> > On closer inspection, I'm sure those are Lucky Lab beer stains.
> > 
> > My vote is for the "Lucky Lab beer stained engineers notebook of perl" 
> 
> It's the Lucky Lab Blue Book, or the Blue Book to those without the LL
> pleasure.

Is it like the Air Force Project Blue Book in that it will deny the 
existence of testing?


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 10:10:04 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:10:04 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Testing book - layout
In-Reply-To: <20050727151931.GA5543@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20050726232956.GK4344@joshheumann.com>
	<20050726234436.39882.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050727151931.GA5543@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20050727171004.GE24670@windhund.schwern.org>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 08:19:31AM -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> The text does look well thought out.  However, it appears that for some
> overpaid-art-school-graduate-who-doesn't-care-about-readability-or-
> printing-cost reason, they decided to print this excellent text on
> top of a light blue grid

Seconded.  I would really prefer that style went away.


> Tangentally, is the current trend to print text in jarring, hard-to-read
> ways considered desirable by many under-30 folk?  Is this some sort of
> counter-reaction to improvements in printing and display technology? 
> Or is it just to piss off people with vision problems?  

There was a wonderful review of a recent D&D book, some sort of compilation
of various people's recolations of the last 30-odd years of D&D, where the
pages were deliberately set OFF CENTER and at angles and against horrible 
full color backgrounds and generally rendered unreadable.  Sort of a
cautionary tale.

It was on Slashdot a few months back but their search is offline at the
moment.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett

From robb at empire2.com  Wed Jul 27 11:42:20 2005
From: robb at empire2.com (Rob Bloodgood)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:42:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
	<20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 07:30:04PM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
> 
>>On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:58 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote:
>>
>>>PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both Schwern's
>>>tea *and* Heumann's coffee.
>>
>>heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually.  but thanks to working with  
>>me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)
> 
> 
> Real men drink TURKISH COFFEE [1] from BRASS THIMBLES because to drink more
> than that would cause a ball of pure blackness to burn through your stomach,
> the seat you're on, the floor, the ground and eventually wind up embedded 
> in the firey core of the Earth!

Actually, having just returned from Turkey, I can attest that is almost
true.  However, I also discovered something else: my wife really likes a
dessert called Turkish Delight, which is sickeningly sweet (typical of
many Turkish desserts), and inedible to me.  But I found out that if one
eats Turkish Delight while sipping Turkish coffee, the extreme sweetness
and extreme bitterness neutralize and create a truly delightful taste.


L8r,
Rob

From jkeroes at eli.net  Wed Jul 27 12:39:49 2005
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:39:49 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
	<20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
	<42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>
Message-ID: <05E484D6-D736-45AA-B5FA-03FEE8C4521F@eli.net>


On Jul 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Rob Bloodgood wrote:

> Michael G Schwern wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 07:30:04PM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:58 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both  
>>>> Schwern's
>>>> tea *and* Heumann's coffee.
>>>>
>>>
>>> heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually.  but thanks to working with
>>> me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Real men drink TURKISH COFFEE [1] from BRASS THIMBLES because to  
>> drink more
>> than that would cause a ball of pure blackness to burn through  
>> your stomach,
>> the seat you're on, the floor, the ground and eventually wind up  
>> embedded
>> in the firey core of the Earth!
>>
>
> Actually, having just returned from Turkey, I can attest that is  
> almost
> true.  However, I also discovered something else: my wife really  
> likes a
> dessert called Turkish Delight, which is sickeningly sweet (typical of
> many Turkish desserts), and inedible to me.  But I found out that  
> if one
> eats Turkish Delight while sipping Turkish coffee, the extreme  
> sweetness
> and extreme bitterness neutralize and create a truly delightful taste.

You can buy Turkish Delight at Barbur Foods on the corner of SW  
Barbur & SW Taylor's Ferry. They stock several brands. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20050727/c63835b5/attachment.html

From robb at empire2.com  Wed Jul 27 13:39:43 2005
From: robb at empire2.com (Rob Bloodgood)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:39:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <05E484D6-D736-45AA-B5FA-03FEE8C4521F@eli.net>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
	<20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
	<42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>
	<05E484D6-D736-45AA-B5FA-03FEE8C4521F@eli.net>
Message-ID: <42E7F10F.8050602@empire2.com>

Joshua Keroes wrote:
> 
> On Jul 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Rob Bloodgood wrote:
> 
>> Michael G Schwern wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 07:30:04PM -0700, Randall Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 26, 2005, at 6:58 PM, Joshua Keroes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> PS Actually, I drink yerba mate. And it's better than both Schwern's
>>>>> tea *and* Heumann's coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> heumann doesn't drink coffee, actually.  but thanks to working with  
>>>> me for so long, he's a total espresso snob :)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Real men drink TURKISH COFFEE [1] from BRASS THIMBLES because to
>>> drink more
>>> than that would cause a ball of pure blackness to burn through your
>>> stomach,
>>> the seat you're on, the floor, the ground and eventually wind up
>>> embedded 
>>> in the firey core of the Earth!
>>>
>>
>> Actually, having just returned from Turkey, I can attest that is almost
>> true.  However, I also discovered something else: my wife really likes a
>> dessert called Turkish Delight, which is sickeningly sweet (typical of
>> many Turkish desserts), and inedible to me.  But I found out that if one
>> eats Turkish Delight while sipping Turkish coffee, the extreme sweetness
>> and extreme bitterness neutralize and create a truly delightful taste.
> 
> 
> You can buy Turkish Delight at Barbur Foods on the corner of SW Barbur &
> SW Taylor's Ferry. They stock several brands. 

Thanks, I'll let my lady know.

But there IS one thing we discovered in Turkey that I would VERY much
like to know: does anybody know where to purchase Sour Cherry
Juice/Nectar, in Portland?

Rob

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 14:01:18 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:01:18 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tea is weak [was: Perl Testing book]
In-Reply-To: <42E7F10F.8050602@empire2.com>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
	<20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
	<42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>
	<05E484D6-D736-45AA-B5FA-03FEE8C4521F@eli.net>
	<42E7F10F.8050602@empire2.com>
Message-ID: <20050727210118.GA26322@windhund.schwern.org>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 01:39:43PM -0700, Rob Bloodgood wrote:
> But there IS one thing we discovered in Turkey that I would VERY much
> like to know: does anybody know where to purchase Sour Cherry
> Juice/Nectar, in Portland?

There's a European grocery on the north side of Hawthorne and about SE 18th.  
They might have it.


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Thu Jul 28 14:30:16 2005
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:30:16 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Sour Cherry Juice (was Tea and Testing)
In-Reply-To: <20050727210118.GA26322@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050727012452.3682.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com>
	<863bq1m3xc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<20050727013951.GE23318@windhund.schwern.org>
	<895B17F5-4A80-4F1B-B20D-85788649B45C@eli.net>
	<7B648E77-B7D1-421C-8C05-B5E345B7BE47@sonofhans.net>
	<20050727031330.GC23867@windhund.schwern.org>
	<42E7D58C.8070909@empire2.com>
	<05E484D6-D736-45AA-B5FA-03FEE8C4521F@eli.net>
	<42E7F10F.8050602@empire2.com>
	<20050727210118.GA26322@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <20050728213016.GA3382@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 01:39:43PM -0700, Rob Bloodgood wrote:
> But there IS one thing we discovered in Turkey that I would VERY much
> like to know: does anybody know where to purchase Sour Cherry
> Juice/Nectar, in Portland?

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 02:01:18PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> There's a European grocery on the north side of Hawthorne and about SE 18th.  
> They might have it.

There is a Russian grocery store named Kavkaz in Beaverton ( 10343 sw
Canyon Road ) where I've bought sour cherry juice.  I have also seen
it at other European stores, so Schwern's suggestion is a good one.

Tasty stuff - much preferrable to tea or coffee!

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Jul 28 22:13:09 2005
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:13:09 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] FOSCON
Message-ID: <20050729051309.GC4255@windhund.schwern.org>

Friend of mine just tipped me off to this on the Free Geek and Ruby list.
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/149384

So if you can't afford to go to OSCON, or even if you can, go to FOSCON.


What is FOSCON?
================
FOSCON just means free OSCON.  Several of us in Portland got into OSCON
free the last couple of years by volunteering.  When we found out that
there would be no volunteer opportunities this year we decided to see if
any of the Ruby speakers would like to 'practice' their OSCON talks on us
local Rubyists - thus FOSCON (or as Lennon calls it: OSCANT) was born.

When is it?
==============
Wednesday, August 3rd 2005.  Evening.  We'll start at 6:30PM 
and go till 10:30PM or so. 

Who is speaking?
=================
*Jim Weirich: I think Jim is going to speak on Domain Specific Languages
and Ruby (or maybe he'll talk about dependency injection).
*DHH: I suspect his talk will have something to do with Rails
*Why The Lucky Stiff: Music.  Mayhem.  Ruby.  Elves. Poignant. Not to be
missed.
* Jamis Buck: Jamis will be talking about his Ruby-Javascript bridge 
thingy. 

Matz has indicated that he plans to attend, but he doesn't want to speak
(well, I mean he doen't want to give a presentation - if you ask him a
question I suspect he will answer).  That's cool.

Where's it gonna be?
=====================
At the lavish conference facilities of FreeGeek in Portland.  FreeGeek is
located at:
1731 SE 10th Avenue, Portland OR
http://freegeek.org


-- 
Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett

From ptkwt at aracnet.com  Fri Jul 29 01:03:11 2005
From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] FOSCON
In-Reply-To: <20050729051309.GC4255@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0507290045420.22283-100000@onyx.spiritone.com>



Yes, Perl people can come too.  

We're going to take a collection soon after convening and order in pizza - 
that was the plan anyway, we might need to order from a couple of 
different places if we get large attendance.  Bring your favorite beverage 
(sour cherry juice seems to have suddenly become popular, and since I 
assume it is red-ish in color it would be an especially appropriate 
choice).

Just know this: Why the lucky stiff is not a tame presenter. (oh, and 
Jamis can't make it so his Ruby/Javascript thingy talk is off the agenda)
We're saying that Why's talk is not to be missed, but actually we wonder 
if perhaps Why's talk will be impossible to miss anywhere within a 10-block 
radius.  


Phil

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Friend of mine just tipped me off to this on the Free Geek and Ruby list.
> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/149384
> 
> So if you can't afford to go to OSCON, or even if you can, go to FOSCON.
> 
> 
> What is FOSCON?
> ================
> FOSCON just means free OSCON.  Several of us in Portland got into OSCON
> free the last couple of years by volunteering.  When we found out that
> there would be no volunteer opportunities this year we decided to see if
> any of the Ruby speakers would like to 'practice' their OSCON talks on us
> local Rubyists - thus FOSCON (or as Lennon calls it: OSCANT) was born.
> 
> When is it?
> ==============
> Wednesday, August 3rd 2005.  Evening.  We'll start at 6:30PM 
> and go till 10:30PM or so. 
> 
> Who is speaking?
> =================
> *Jim Weirich: I think Jim is going to speak on Domain Specific Languages
> and Ruby (or maybe he'll talk about dependency injection).
> *DHH: I suspect his talk will have something to do with Rails
> *Why The Lucky Stiff: Music.  Mayhem.  Ruby.  Elves. Poignant. Not to be
> missed.
> * Jamis Buck: Jamis will be talking about his Ruby-Javascript bridge 
> thingy. 
> 
> Matz has indicated that he plans to attend, but he doesn't want to speak
> (well, I mean he doen't want to give a presentation - if you ask him a
> question I suspect he will answer).  That's cool.
> 
> Where's it gonna be?
> =====================
> At the lavish conference facilities of FreeGeek in Portland.  FreeGeek is
> located at:
> 1731 SE 10th Avenue, Portland OR
> http://freegeek.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael G Schwern     schwern at pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~schwern
> Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.
> 	-- "Lords and Ladies" by Terry Prachett
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
> 


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Fri Jul 29 03:37:09 2005
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 29 Jul 2005 03:37:09 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] FOSCON
In-Reply-To: <20050729051309.GC4255@windhund.schwern.org>
References: <20050729051309.GC4255@windhund.schwern.org>
Message-ID: <86ek9hc2zu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> writes:

Michael> When is it?
Michael> ==============
Michael> Wednesday, August 3rd 2005.  Evening.  We'll start at 6:30PM 
Michael> and go till 10:30PM or so. 

After you're done, head over to Ground Kontrol
(www.groundkontrol.com), and say the magic phrase at the door... "I
know Randal"... for free food, beer, and video games.  We'll be there
until at least midnight-- later if people keep hanging out.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From rlucas at tercent.com  Fri Jul 29 12:42:22 2005
From: rlucas at tercent.com (Randall Lucas)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:42:22 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm]  Sour Cherry Juice (was Tea and Testing)
Message-ID: <42EA869E.4050305@tercent.com>

> On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 02:01:18PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>>> There's a European grocery on the north side of Hawthorne and about SE 18th.  
>>> They might have it.
> 
> 
> There is a Russian grocery store named Kavkaz in Beaverton ( 10343 sw
> Canyon Road ) where I've bought sour cherry juice.  I have also seen
> it at other European stores, so Schwern's suggestion is a good one.
> 
> Tasty stuff - much preferrable to tea or coffee!

If anyone is interested in serious bulk imporing, I know a guy with a
sour cherry orchard in Hungary looking for export opps...

R

-- 
Randall Lucas            DF93EAD1
Tercent, Inc / SuperSurvey Online Surveys
http://www.supersurvey.com