From jkeroes at eli.net Fri May 2 04:25:39 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting Message-ID: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> The next meeting is, as yet, unplanned. What do you think of a Sunday brunch of dim sum at Legin? Failing that, I'm open to ideas. :-) Yrs, J. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri May 2 05:14:57 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> Message-ID: <86u1cdpsda.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Keroes writes: Joshua> The next meeting is, as yet, unplanned. What do you think of a Sunday Joshua> brunch of dim sum at Legin? Joshua> Failing that, I'm open to ideas. :-) I have free tickets for Harvey's Comedy Club next thursday night. If I can get a head count by wednesday, I can get us all in, saving the normal $8 cover charge (which I don't think I've ever paid :). Here's the acts: Innovative comedian Daniel Packard flavors his core skill of stand-up with the hip spontaneity of fusion jazz, dropping the standard, one-dimensional set-up/punchline premise and replacing it by using audience response to spontaneously weave stories, rants and free form pontifications. The result is a nightly experience thats engaging, inspired and of course, totally hilarious. Daniel has free audio samples and show info at danielpackard.com or by calling his hotline at (415) MIC-9000. And welcome back Mike Wally Walter, nominated for an American Comedy Award as Nightclub Comic of the Year in 1994. Mike began his comedy career way back in 1982, when you still had to be funny to get a gig. He combines the fact that he has 4 ex-wives and 4 children into his offbeat brand of humor. He is not afraid to tackle the delicate issues of relationships, childbirth or travel, and stamp them with his sense of humor. A true professional, hes been branded as high-energy, wild, zany, politically incorrect, but always funny! www.comedyguru.com/mikewally We'd need to be in line together around 6:45pm, with dinner inside from 7 to 8pm, show 8 to 9:30. Harvey's has convenient access for mass transit, since they're at the confluence of the north end of the downtown bus mall, the Amtrak station, and the Greyhound Bus Depot. No excuses for not getting there. :) Even if that doesn't end up being the event, let me know by email if you want to come along. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From ingy at ttul.org Fri May 2 14:08:17 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net>; from jkeroes@eli.net on Fri, May 02, 2003 at 02:25:39AM -0700 References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> Message-ID: <20030502120817.A21170@ttul.org> On 02/05/03 02:25 -0700, Joshua Keroes wrote: > The next meeting is, as yet, unplanned. What do you think of a Sunday > brunch of dim sum at Legin? Don't forget about the MOSS meeting tommorrow afternoon at the Lucky Lab. This is going to be like a mini OSCon every month or two. Come meet the other OSS people in the area. And bring something to demo if you want. Everybody is welcome to present. http://moss.freepan.org Cheers, Brian > > Failing that, I'm open to ideas. :-) > > Yrs, > J. > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From dpool at hevanet.com Fri May 2 14:26:16 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <20030502120817.A21170@ttul.org> References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> <20030502120817.A21170@ttul.org> Message-ID: <3EB2C658.3060704@hevanet.com> In case anyone missed this on the PLUG list, there's an editorial in today's oregonian about HB 2892 by the bill's author: Minnis bows to lobbyists of Microsoft http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1051876782142831.xml d Brian Ingerson wrote: > On 02/05/03 02:25 -0700, Joshua Keroes wrote: > >>The next meeting is, as yet, unplanned. What do you think of a Sunday >>brunch of dim sum at Legin? > > > Don't forget about the MOSS meeting tommorrow afternoon at the Lucky > Lab. This is going to be like a mini OSCon every month or two. Come meet > the other OSS people in the area. And bring something to demo if you > want. Everybody is welcome to present. > > http://moss.freepan.org > > Cheers, Brian > > >>Failing that, I'm open to ideas. :-) >> >>Yrs, >>J. >>_______________________________________________ >>Pdx-pm-list mailing list >>Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org >>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sat May 3 02:07:45 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <3EB2C658.3060704@hevanet.com> References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> <20030502120817.A21170@ttul.org> <3EB2C658.3060704@hevanet.com> Message-ID: David Pool writes: > In case anyone missed this on the PLUG list, there's an editorial in > today's oregonian about HB 2892 by the bill's author: > Minnis bows to lobbyists of Microsoft > http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1051876782142831.xml > From jkeroes at eli.net Mon May 5 12:39:20 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <86u1cdpsda.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> <86u1cdpsda.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20030505173919.GU306@eli.net> Sounds like we have two ideas for the next social meeting. Please vote: 1. Harvey's Comedy Club, this Thursday night. 2. Dim sum brunch at Legin, this Sunday. Thanks, J On (Fri, May 02 03:14), Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Keroes writes: > > Joshua> The next meeting is, as yet, unplanned. What do you think of a Sunday > Joshua> brunch of dim sum at Legin? > > Joshua> Failing that, I'm open to ideas. :-) > > I have free tickets for Harvey's Comedy Club next thursday night. If > I can get a head count by wednesday, I can get us all in, saving the > normal $8 cover charge (which I don't think I've ever paid :). > > Here's the acts: > > Innovative comedian Daniel Packard flavors his core skill of > stand-up with the hip spontaneity of fusion jazz, dropping the > standard, one-dimensional set-up/punchline premise and replacing > it by using audience response to spontaneously weave stories, > rants and free form pontifications. The result is a nightly > experience thats engaging, inspired and of course, totally > hilarious. Daniel has free audio samples and show info at > danielpackard.com or by calling his hotline at (415) MIC-9000. > > > And welcome back Mike Wally Walter, nominated for an American > Comedy Award as Nightclub Comic of the Year in 1994. Mike began > his comedy career way back in 1982, when you still had to be funny > to get a gig. He combines the fact that he has 4 ex-wives and 4 > children into his offbeat brand of humor. He is not afraid to > tackle the delicate issues of relationships, childbirth or travel, > and stamp them with his sense of humor. A true professional, hes > been branded as high-energy, wild, zany, politically incorrect, > but always funny! www.comedyguru.com/mikewally > > We'd need to be in line together around 6:45pm, with dinner inside > from 7 to 8pm, show 8 to 9:30. > > Harvey's has convenient access for mass transit, since they're at the > confluence of the north end of the downtown bus mall, the Amtrak > station, and the Greyhound Bus Depot. No excuses for not getting > there. :) > > Even if that doesn't end up being the event, let me know by email if > you want to come along. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon May 5 13:20:29 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next meeting In-Reply-To: <20030505173919.GU306@eli.net> References: <20030502092538.GA14393@eli.net> <86u1cdpsda.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030505173919.GU306@eli.net> Message-ID: <86llxl9rwy.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Keroes writes: Joshua> Sounds like we have two ideas for the next social meeting. Please vote: Joshua> 1. Harvey's Comedy Club, this Thursday night. Joshua> 2. Dim sum brunch at Legin, this Sunday. I actually don't see it as an either-or. Nothing saying you can have only one PDX.pm social in a month. :) I'm doing Harvey's regardless, and will be out of town for Dim sum. I've already got a few people who are joining me there. All you probably need to know, Joshua, is how many people would show up Sunday if you also held your event. If it's too small, cancel it. But even two people can form a meeting. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From jkeroes at eli.net Thu May 8 17:10:12 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] May Dim Sum Brunch Message-ID: <20030508221012.GI18333@eli.net> What: Perl Mongers Social Meeting When: This Saturday, May 10, 12pm [1] Where: Legin, map at http://snurl.com/1ber [citysearch.com] What is Dim Sum? http://snurl.com/1bes [cuisinenet.com] About Legin: The Scene - Children screech, dishes clank and waitresses call out their goods as they go from table to table. And most of the diners are Asian, a good sign that this is the real thing. The Food - At peak times, the cavernous restaurant is packed; a 20-minute wait for a table is not uncommon. But it's worth it--Legin's dim sum is arguably the best in town, and the variety is the largest. Diners can get traditional favorites like perfectly tender shrimp or pork dumplings; sticky, sweet barbecue pork buns; crunchy spring rolls; slippery rice noodles; and crisp-skinned roast duck. Adventurous souls can indulge in chicken feet, tripe and a host of other exotic culinary wonders. (that was from http://snurl.com/1bep [citysearch.com]) Important: please RSVP to me! I'd like to get an estimate of our party size to get this arranged properly. Thanks, J. PS This will be on http://pdx.pm.org/ soon. [1] We were originally planning on Sunday but changed to Saturday for two reasons. 1) it's Mothers' Day 2) another group of geeks will be there as well. The more, the merrier! From jkeroes at eli.net Thu May 8 19:06:32 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: Geeklist -- May Dim Sum Brunch In-Reply-To: <20030508221012.GI18333@eli.net> References: <20030508221012.GI18333@eli.net> Message-ID: <20030509000631.GQ18333@eli.net> I've had two people ask "Can I bring my wife/children/etc?" Of course! Our goal is to subjugate your children and the people you know; weren't you already aware of that? Repeat after me: "ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF..." Seriously, bring them only if they can handle ALL THAT BRAIN POWER in one place! Wait, that wasn't too serious. Hmm. I'll put it like this: if they know you well, they're probably already completely aware of what type of conversation they'll find should they come. ;-D -J From schwern at pobox.com Thu May 8 19:26:57 2003 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Excellent furniture and computers for sale Message-ID: <20030509002657.GH806@windhund.schwern.org> I call dibs on the SmartUPS 420! ----- Forwarded message from Nathan Spear ----- From: "Nathan Spear" Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:24:02 -0700 Subject: Excellent furniture and computers for sale Reply-To: I wanted to let you know about a huge inventory of excellent computer equipment and furniture that is for sale. This is a super offer for those starting/expanding businesses! Or, looking for an upgrade for that matter. Or, who want to add some handy equipment into the home office/lab. Here is the story: A local software company is liquidating unused assets that include workstations, servers, and office furniture, and have been asked to manage the sales. A little background, I worked nights and weekends at the end of last year consolidation and sorting items and building, testing and imaging computers. I about 75 employees entire office setup available. Anything you could need I bet I have. For a complete look at the inventory, including pictures, go to http://partner.rulespace.com/sales. Here is an abbreviated list of what is available. Furniture; chairs, desks, white boards, Servers and SUN; 1U Linux rackmount, 1U IBM rackmount, Cobalt CacheRaQ, NetApp NetCache, Sun Ultra 10, Sun Ultra 5 Computers and Laptops; 75 PIII 750 and slower workstations, 2 Toshiba laptops Networking hardware; hubs, switches and router Cables; Cisco, Ethernet, modem, SCSI Power; UPS and power strips For a complete look at the inventory, including pictures, go to http://partner.rulespace.com/sales. I can be reached at ns@nathanspear.com and (503) 888-0654. Please feel free to forward this email to whomever you wish. I hope you are doing well. Sincerely, Nathan Spear 1516 NW 28th Ave Portland, OR 97210 ns@nathanspear.com (503) 888-0654 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Let me check my notes. http://www.sluggy.com From mike at collegenet.com Fri May 9 12:41:50 2003 From: mike at collegenet.com (Mike Hitchcock) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON Discounts References: <20030411200705.49149.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EBBE85E.40607@collegenet.com> Is there any further news on this front? I would dearly love to register for OSCON, but I need to 'sell' my CEO, and discounts would definitely sweeten the deal! -- Mike Hitchcock Ovid wrote: > --- Rob Bloodgood wrote: > >>So, there was a rumor here for a second that we could be eligible for >>a discount at OSCON, being the local user group, and all. >> >>Was anything further established? Did we ever tell OReilly that we >>exist and are interested in said discount? >> >>Do we have a code I can cut-paste into the registration form? > > > As I understand it, the group leader has to apply for the discount, but I can't swear to that. > > Cheers, > Ovid > > ===== > "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ > Web Programming with Perl: http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ > Silence Is Evil: http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.txt > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > http://tax.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From dpool at hevanet.com Fri May 9 16:01:22 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Minnis answers questions at City Club Message-ID: <3EBC1722.8000700@hevanet.com> Karen Minnis gave a speech at the Portland City Club today. The first question following her talk was about measure 2892. It went roughly like this: "I appreciate your addressing themes of fiscal reponsibility and doing more with the money we send to Salem. My question concerns HB 2892 which would require state agencies to consider Open Source software potentially saving tens of millions of dollars. In Tuesday's Oregonian you called this bill a solution searching for a problem. Meanwhile, Oregon's "Perfect Storm" is cutting days from our school year, cutting people off of medical benefits and is cutting felons loose from our jails. In the sense that this bill would save tens of millions of dollars, it is a solution that has found a problem. My question is Please, for the sake of all Oregonians, will you bring this bill to the floor of the house for an open debate?" Her response talked about agencies already being able to choose open source and how the bill had missed some kind of procedural deadline. My follow-up question was roughly "With all due respect, I understand that they're allowed to save us money, i'm suggesting that we should pass a law that makes them actively consider doing so, especially if we are looking under every rock to find money like you say" Her response shifted the debate by claiming that the money savings weren't clear and that this had been debated in the committee. I closed with the comment that I'd really like to see that debate take place on the floor of the house. I believe this will be aired on Oregon Public Radio 91.5 FM Tuesday at Noon. d From jkeroes at eli.net Fri May 9 17:52:28 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON Discounts In-Reply-To: <3EBBE85E.40607@collegenet.com> References: <20030411200705.49149.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> <3EBBE85E.40607@collegenet.com> Message-ID: <20030509225228.GB24534@eli.net> http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/2003-April/000464.html On (Fri, May 09 12:41), Mike Hitchcock wrote: > Is there any further news on this front? > I would dearly love to register for OSCON, > but I need to 'sell' my CEO, and discounts would > definitely sweeten the deal! > > -- Mike Hitchcock > > Ovid wrote: > >--- Rob Bloodgood wrote: > > > >>So, there was a rumor here for a second that we could be eligible for > >>a discount at OSCON, being the local user group, and all. > >> > >>Was anything further established? Did we ever tell OReilly that we > >>exist and are interested in said discount? > >> > >>Do we have a code I can cut-paste into the registration form? > > > > > >As I understand it, the group leader has to apply for the discount, but I > >can't swear to that. > > > >Cheers, > >Ovid > > > >===== > >"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ > >Web Programming with Perl: http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ > >Silence Is Evil: http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.txt > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > >http://tax.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ > >Pdx-pm-list mailing list > >Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From ben_tilly at operamail.com Fri May 9 18:54:43 2003 From: ben_tilly at operamail.com (Benjamin J. Tilly ) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? Message-ID: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> Joshua, It seems that you have little appreciation for the fact that you never know when someone has been laying down advance plans, and will be inconvenienced if you move a perlmongers meeting. For the future, please lay down a date well in advance, and leave it fixed. Being in the habit of doing that will make things go *much* more smoothly in the long run. An example of what changing the event at the last minute does. I'm not sure whether you know who I am, but several people at Portland PM do, and I had been looking forward to meeting them. (And hopefully vice versa.) When I flew out to the West Coast I was told that it would be May 14, and planned accordingly (including taking out a car rental that would mean I have less time to spend with family). When I was told by Curtis that you had moved it to Sunday, I was inconvenienced but began to make plans so that I could show up on Sunday. Now that it is Saturday, it has become impossible for me to show at all at this point. In short, I didn't care what the date was, I just needed it to be something that I could rely on and knew well in advance. So for all of the people who frequent Perlmonks and might want to meet me on my trip, I am going to be staying with Curtis and something informal might happen Monday. (Or less likely, Tuesday or Wednesday.) The best way to find out if that is workable is to talk to him. Otherwise I will pass through Portland but your best chance of running into me is at the Seattle PM on May 20. See their site for exact time and location. And perhaps another time I can arrange to get to a Portland PM. :-( Regards, Ben From cp at onsitetech.com Fri May 9 19:09:17 2003 From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? References: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c31688$66085010$1f01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Hi all, I administer the mailing list. Ben Tilly is not subscribed to the pdx.pm list, so I had to approve this message. I have to confess that this message made me squirm a little bit, but as I am not in favor of censoring anything, I approved the message. For the record (as far as I can recall) the only messages that I have *not* approved for the list have been of the "Gain an extra 3 inches on your ink cartridge" type of messages. Cheers, Ovid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin J. Tilly " To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 4:54 PM Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? > Joshua, > > It seems that you have little appreciation for the fact that you > never know when someone has been laying down advance plans, and will > be inconvenienced if you move a perlmongers meeting. For the future, > please lay down a date well in advance, and leave it fixed. Being in > the habit of doing that will make things go *much* more smoothly in the > long run. > > An example of what changing the event at the last minute does. > > I'm not sure whether you know who I am, but several people at Portland > PM do, and I had been looking forward to meeting them. (And hopefully > vice versa.) When I flew out to the West Coast I was told that it > would be May 14, and planned accordingly (including taking out a car > rental that would mean I have less time to spend with family). When I > was told by Curtis that you had moved it to Sunday, I was > inconvenienced but began to make plans so that I could show up on > Sunday. Now that it is Saturday, it has become impossible for me to > show at all at this point. > > In short, I didn't care what the date was, I just needed it to be > something that I could rely on and knew well in advance. > > So for all of the people who frequent Perlmonks and might want to meet > me on my trip, I am going to be staying with Curtis and something > informal might happen Monday. (Or less likely, Tuesday or Wednesday.) > The best way to find out if that is workable is to talk to him. > Otherwise I will pass through Portland but your best chance of running > into me is at the Seattle PM on May 20. See their site for exact time > and location. > > And perhaps another time I can arrange to get to a Portland PM. :-( > > Regards, > Ben > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From jeff at vpservices.com Fri May 9 19:26:40 2003 From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? In-Reply-To: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> References: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> Message-ID: <3EBC4740.5090505@vpservices.com> Benjamin J. Tilly wrote: >Joshua, > >It seems that you have little appreciation > Hi Ben, Perl mongers, at least here in Portland, seems to work with everyone saying something rather than one person saying it for the rest of us. Joshua made some proposals, there were counterpropsals and suggestions of preferences by several others, all here on the list. Next time, join the list and write in and say "I'm going to be in pdx between X and Y, any chance the meeting could be then?" and I'm sure Joshua and the rest of us would have tried to accomodate. The downside of changeable dates is they get changed, the upside is we can be flexible to requests from individuals. Sorry it didn't work out this time around. -- Jeff From jkeroes at eli.net Fri May 9 19:32:49 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? In-Reply-To: <001f01c31688$66085010$1f01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> References: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> <001f01c31688$66085010$1f01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Message-ID: <20030510003249.GC24534@eli.net> Ben's made his point, in a very public manner. Talk to Curtis if you want to meet him. -J On (Fri, May 09 17:09), Curtis Poe wrote: > Hi all, > > I administer the mailing list. Ben Tilly is not subscribed to the pdx.pm > list, so I had to approve this message. > > I have to confess that this message made me squirm a little bit, but as I am > not in favor of censoring anything, I approved the message. > > For the record (as far as I can recall) the only messages that I have *not* > approved for the list have been of the "Gain an extra 3 inches on your ink > cartridge" type of messages. > > Cheers, > Ovid > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Benjamin J. Tilly " > To: > Cc: ; ; > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 4:54 PM > Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? > > > > Joshua, > > > > It seems that you have little appreciation for the fact that you > > never know when someone has been laying down advance plans, and will > > be inconvenienced if you move a perlmongers meeting. For the future, > > please lay down a date well in advance, and leave it fixed. Being in > > the habit of doing that will make things go *much* more smoothly in the > > long run. > > > > An example of what changing the event at the last minute does. > > > > I'm not sure whether you know who I am, but several people at Portland > > PM do, and I had been looking forward to meeting them. (And hopefully > > vice versa.) When I flew out to the West Coast I was told that it > > would be May 14, and planned accordingly (including taking out a car > > rental that would mean I have less time to spend with family). When I > > was told by Curtis that you had moved it to Sunday, I was > > inconvenienced but began to make plans so that I could show up on > > Sunday. Now that it is Saturday, it has become impossible for me to > > show at all at this point. > > > > In short, I didn't care what the date was, I just needed it to be > > something that I could rely on and knew well in advance. > > > > So for all of the people who frequent Perlmonks and might want to meet > > me on my trip, I am going to be staying with Curtis and something > > informal might happen Monday. (Or less likely, Tuesday or Wednesday.) > > The best way to find out if that is workable is to talk to him. > > Otherwise I will pass through Portland but your best chance of running > > into me is at the Seattle PM on May 20. See their site for exact time > > and location. > > > > And perhaps another time I can arrange to get to a Portland PM. :-( > > > > Regards, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From ingy at ttul.org Fri May 9 22:29:24 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? In-Reply-To: <3EBC4740.5090505@vpservices.com>; from jeff@vpservices.com on Fri, May 09, 2003 at 05:26:40PM -0700 References: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> <3EBC4740.5090505@vpservices.com> Message-ID: <20030509202924.A22682@ttul.org> On 09/05/03 17:26 -0700, Jeff Zucker wrote: > Benjamin J. Tilly wrote: > > >Joshua, > > > >It seems that you have little appreciation > > > > Hi Ben, > > Perl mongers, at least here in Portland, seems to work with everyone > saying something rather than one person saying it for the rest of us. > Joshua made some proposals, there were counterpropsals and suggestions > of preferences by several others, all here on the list. Next time, join > the list and write in and say "I'm going to be in pdx between X and Y, > any chance the meeting could be then?" and I'm sure Joshua and the rest > of us would have tried to accomodate. The downside of changeable dates > is they get changed, the upside is we can be flexible to requests from > individuals. Sorry it didn't work out this time around. I have to say that having a regular meeting date is key to running a long term successful user group meeting. I joined SPUG (Seattle) in August of 1998. I don't think they have ever missed a meeting. Big ups to Tim Maher for his perseverence. I know that we need to find a new regular meeting place, but once that is found we should get into a routine of monthly technical meetings on dates published well in advance. I'm all for doing dim sum and arcade night and other activities together, but I think they should always be in addition to a regularly scheduled technical meeting. This is, of course, my personal opinion. Ben may have come across a little gruff because of his disappointment, but I think his expectation is valid; especially for a reputable PM such as PDX. Then again, I would expect a *really* good PM to be able to assemble on an hour's notice when a Perl Monk was travelling amongst us. London.pm gave me that sort of welcome. Maybe we can have a round or three when Ben arrives. Cheers, Brian From jkeroes at eli.net Sat May 10 12:05:36 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [REMINDER] dim sum today Message-ID: <20030510170536.GC13397@eli.net> Dim sum at noon today! Details at http://pdx.pm.org/ -J From pundit at teleport.com Fri May 9 23:21:58 2003 From: pundit at teleport.com (Ken Barber) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <3EBC1722.8000700@hevanet.com> References: <3EBC1722.8000700@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <200305092121.58275.pundit@teleport.com> On Friday 09 May 2003 14:01, David Pool wrote: > Karen Minnis gave a speech at the Portland City Club today. The > first question following her talk was about measure 2892. It > went roughly like this: [snip] > Her response talked about agencies already being able to choose > open source and how the bill had missed some kind of procedural > deadline. How disingenious. Yes, it missed a procedural deadline -- at her orders. However, lots of other bills that missed that deadline get considered anyway. You see, under House rules the Speaker has the authority to waive that deadline and let a bill through.... So she told you a half-truth. Ever heard the saying, "A half-truth is a whole lie"? Something tells me this is all going to come back and haunt her next year when she runs for re-election.... I hope you Portland folks give her h*ll when that time comes! Ken From kellert at ohsu.edu Sat May 10 14:42:02 2003 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <200305092121.58275.pundit@teleport.com> Message-ID: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Ken, and all, It's oxymoronic, perhaps to write this to the list, but let's find another forum for this type of discussion. I actually followed up and emailed the representatives listed in the first posting. And I'll join another list ("geeks-on-oregon-policy", pdx-goop-list?). But, as important as this topic is, I'd like to continue to follow "rules" pertinent to the list and keep the postings on topic: perl mongering. Thanks, Tom K On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Ken Barber wrote: > On Friday 09 May 2003 14:01, David Pool wrote: >> Karen Minnis gave a speech at the Portland City Club today. The >> first question following her talk was about measure 2892. It >> went roughly like this: > > [snip] > >> Her response talked about agencies already being able to choose >> open source and how the bill had missed some kind of procedural >> deadline. > > How disingenious. Yes, it missed a procedural deadline -- at her > orders. However, lots of other bills that missed that deadline > get considered anyway. You see, under House rules the Speaker > has the authority to waive that deadline and let a bill > through.... > > So she told you a half-truth. Ever heard the saying, "A > half-truth is a whole lie"? > > Something tells me this is all going to come back and haunt her > next year when she runs for re-election.... I hope you Portland > folks give her h*ll when that time comes! > > Ken > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From dpool at hevanet.com Sat May 10 15:45:32 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Why can't you just set a PM date and keep it? In-Reply-To: <001f01c31688$66085010$1f01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> References: <20030509235443.32216.qmail@operamail.com> <001f01c31688$66085010$1f01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Message-ID: <3EBD64EC.4060306@hevanet.com> Curtis Poe wrote: > Hi all, > For the record (as far as I can recall) the only messages that I have *not* > approved for the list have been of the "Gain an extra 3 inches on your ink > cartridge" type of messages. Ovid, 3 inches! sweet, tell me more, see i've got this friend.... As for the rest of that conversation, it seemed a little rough and i think some feathers were ruffled. Let's move on. If you or anyone else knows of a get together with Mr. Tilly, post it to the list so we can all have the chance to drink some beer, ahem, i mean meet him... d From jeff at vpservices.com Sat May 10 16:04:54 2003 From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> References: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Message-ID: <3EBD6976.4000507@vpservices.com> Thomas Keller wrote: > I'll join another list ("geeks-on-oregon-policy", pdx-goop-list?) Me too, or a phone tree. > . But, as important as this topic is, I'd like to continue to follow > "rules" pertinent to the list and keep the postings on topic: perl > mongering. I think a list for those issues may be good and maybe the MOSS list is a good place. But I define "perl mongering" to be a wider thing than "how to program with perl" and would hope that the pdx.pm list will continue to recieve important updates on things like this bill which directly impact the future of Perl and of perl developers. David and Ken - ROCK ON! Thanks for all your work. -- Jeff From john at digitalmx.com Sat May 10 16:26:07 2003 From: john at digitalmx.com (John Springer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Message-ID: <0349868B-832E-11D7-A1A1-003065C30250@digitalmx.com> On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 12:42 PM, Thomas Keller wrote: > It's oxymoronic, perhaps to write this to the list, but let's find > another forum for this type of discussion. An appropriate and receptive list that loves Karen Minnis horror stories is DEM-OR-Multnomah@yahoogroups.com. Just reporting... ---- John Springer Portland, Oregon From mschuette at dslnorthwest.net Sat May 10 16:44:08 2003 From: mschuette at dslnorthwest.net (Marc Schuette) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> References: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Message-ID: <3EBD72A8.2080403@dslnorthwest.net> just a lurker here so take what i say with a grain of salt but i fail to see how spreading ANY information on hb 2892 would be categorized as burdensome to members on this list. i am sure a large portion of this list does not attend city club meetings on a regular basis (it is re-broadcast on opb) and might have missed this response which i happen to think sheads more light on minnis and her true feelings and commitment to effective government operations. i would venture to say the people most effected by the passage of this type of bill would be the people on this list. pm-list was the first and only place i got her response (if you found it anywhere in the local news let me know) and i was able to personally pass it on to several other people who had not seen it either. as long as we keep the signal-to-noise ratio high (ie. no die republican swine messages) i feel it is a very appropriate place to post such information. Thomas Keller wrote: > Ken, and all, > It's oxymoronic, perhaps to write this to the list, but let's find > another forum for this type of discussion. I actually followed up and > emailed the representatives listed in the first posting. And I'll join > another list ("geeks-on-oregon-policy", pdx-goop-list?). But, as > important as this topic is, I'd like to continue to follow "rules" > pertinent to the list and keep the postings on topic: perl mongering. > Thanks, > Tom K > On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Ken Barber wrote: > >> On Friday 09 May 2003 14:01, David Pool wrote: >> >>> Karen Minnis gave a speech at the Portland City Club today. The >>> first question following her talk was about measure 2892. It >>> went roughly like this: >> >> >> [snip] >> >>> Her response talked about agencies already being able to choose >>> open source and how the bill had missed some kind of procedural >>> deadline. >> >> >> How disingenious. Yes, it missed a procedural deadline -- at her >> orders. However, lots of other bills that missed that deadline >> get considered anyway. You see, under House rules the Speaker >> has the authority to waive that deadline and let a bill >> through.... >> >> So she told you a half-truth. Ever heard the saying, "A >> half-truth is a whole lie"? >> >> Something tells me this is all going to come back and haunt her >> next year when she runs for re-election.... I hope you Portland >> folks give her h*ll when that time comes! >> >> Ken >> _______________________________________________ >> Pdx-pm-list mailing list >> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > From ingy at ttul.org Sun May 11 13:15:37 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Minnis answers questions at City Club In-Reply-To: <3EBD6976.4000507@vpservices.com>; from jeff@vpservices.com on Sat, May 10, 2003 at 02:04:54PM -0700 References: <78A86B3A-831F-11D7-9712-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> <3EBD6976.4000507@vpservices.com> Message-ID: <20030511111537.A12605@ttul.org> On 10/05/03 14:04 -0700, Jeff Zucker wrote: > Thomas Keller wrote: > > > I'll join another list ("geeks-on-oregon-policy", pdx-goop-list?) > > > Me too, or a phone tree. > > > . But, as important as this topic is, I'd like to continue to follow > > "rules" pertinent to the list and keep the postings on topic: perl > > mongering. > > I think a list for those issues may be good and maybe the MOSS list is a Agreed. This topic and any other Northwest Open Source ongoings is most welcome on the MOSS list. http://lists.freepan.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/moss > good place. But I define "perl mongering" to be a wider thing than "how > to program with perl" and would hope that the pdx.pm list will continue > to recieve important updates on things like this bill which directly > impact the future of Perl and of perl developers. Amen! Cheers, Brian From jkeroes at eli.net Tue May 13 12:10:48 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, May 6] Message-ID: <20030513171048.GG9278@eli.net> Here are some OSCON-related items snipped from the latest O'Reilly newsletter that you might be interested in: ----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon ----- From: Marsee Henon To: ua@pobox.com Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, May 6 ***Hackathon July 6 & 7 Pick an open source project, gather a group of hackers, and descend on the Hackathon. We'll provide the room, bandwidth, tables, chairs, and white boards--you provide the code. Space is limited. If you are interested in participating, send email to oscon03hackathon@oreilly.com by June 1, 2003. http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ***Early Bird Discount User Group members who register before May 23, 2003 get a double discount. Use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20% off the "Early Bird" price. To register, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/ord_os03 ***OSCON Keynotes Nathan Torkington: "I've had people asking me what's up with OSCON this year--is anything interesting happening or can they skip it and watch 'Alias' reruns instead. I can't make your decision for you (the relative attractiveness of the Alias lady and Larry Wall is something I'll leave to you to weigh) but I can definitely talk a little about what I'm jazzed about." http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/3151 ----- End forwarded message ----- From al at shadowed.net Wed May 14 00:29:47 2003 From: al at shadowed.net (Allison Randal) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] OSCON Hackathon In-Reply-To: <20030513171048.GG9278@eli.net> References: <20030513171048.GG9278@eli.net> Message-ID: <20030514052947.GA30511@shadowed.net> Joshua Keroes wrote: > > ***Hackathon July 6 & 7 > Pick an open source project, gather a group of hackers, and descend on > the Hackathon. We'll provide the room, bandwidth, tables, chairs, and > white boards--you provide the code. Space is limited. If you are > interested in participating, send email to oscon03hackathon@oreilly.com > by June 1, 2003. > > http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ People on this list might be particularly interested in the Perlbugathon within the Hackathon: http://www.perl.org/oscon/2003/perlbugathon/ Come, fix a bug, get a dollar donated to TPF. Allison From jkeroes at eli.net Fri May 16 17:53:00 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: O'Reilly Hacks Author event at Powells June 11] Message-ID: <20030516225300.GO24648@eli.net> Forwarded... items... of... interest! On Fri, 16 May 2003 15:32:51, Marsee Henon said: > > Starting at 7:00 p.m., Rael Dornfest and Rob Flickenger, authors of > O'Reilly's best-selling Hacks series ("Google Hacks," "Linux Server > Hacks," and "Mac OS X Hacks"), will be at Powell's to talk about their > top-rated tomes, answer questions, and reveal a few of the private > hacks that didn't make the series. > > Powell's will be giving away a Hacks book with any O'Reilly book > purchased, excluding Pocket References all day June 11. > > Powell's Books > June 11, 7pm > 33 NW Park Avenue > Portland, OR > http://www.powells.com/home.html > > > --Marsee From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat May 17 06:47:22 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: O'Reilly Hacks Author event at Powells June 11] In-Reply-To: <20030516225300.GO24648@eli.net> References: <20030516225300.GO24648@eli.net> Message-ID: <863cjdokvp.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Keroes writes: Joshua> Forwarded... items... of... interest! Joshua> On Fri, 16 May 2003 15:32:51, Marsee Henon said: >> >> Starting at 7:00 p.m., Rael Dornfest and Rob Flickenger, authors of >> O'Reilly's best-selling Hacks series ("Google Hacks," "Linux Server >> Hacks," and "Mac OS X Hacks"), will be at Powell's to talk about their >> top-rated tomes, answer questions, and reveal a few of the private >> hacks that didn't make the series. >> >> Powell's will be giving away a Hacks book with any O'Reilly book >> purchased, excluding Pocket References all day June 11. >> >> Powell's Books >> June 11, 7pm >> 33 NW Park Avenue >> Portland, OR >> http://www.powells.com/home.html >> I believe this is Powell's Technical Bookstore, not the main Powell's. Someone should tell Marsee so the press releases read more naturally. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From wcooley at nakedape.cc Sat May 17 12:18:57 2003 From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: O'Reilly Hacks Author event at Powells June 11] In-Reply-To: <863cjdokvp.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <20030516225300.GO24648@eli.net> <863cjdokvp.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1053191937.7018.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 04:47, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > I believe this is Powell's Technical Bookstore, not the main Powell's. > Someone should tell Marsee so the press releases read more naturally. It is; I did yesterday. She corrected it in their regular newsletter. Wil -- Wil Cooley wcooley@nakedape.cc Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc * * * * Linux, UNIX, Networking and Security Solutions * * * * * Tired of spam and viruses in your e-mail? Get the * * Naked Ape Mail Defender! http://nakedape.cc/r/maildefender * -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20030517/1ba15d2f/attachment.bin From jkeroes at eli.net Tue May 20 18:25:12 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] T-Shirts are in! Message-ID: <20030520232512.GF6487@eli.net> Impress your coworkers! Confound your boss! The Portland Perl Mongers shirts are hot off the presses. I'll have a big box for sale at the next meeting. See http://portland.pm.org/ for info. These shirts kick booty. -J From nick2canz at yahoo.com Wed May 21 11:21:19 2003 From: nick2canz at yahoo.com (Nick Wehr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... Message-ID: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> Hello fellow perl wizards- I was wondering if anyones messed around with converting your perl script into a binary executable. I've seen various tools such as Activestates dev kit and Indigos perl2exe. How have you guys done it? I want to be able to distribute scripts that utilize modules without the need of an interpreter. It seems to me that this is never really directly addressed in all the books I've read other than embedding your script into a C program. Anyone? Thanks - Nick __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jkeroes at eli.net Wed May 21 14:35:53 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [marsee@oreilly.com: O'Reilly Open Source Convention "Locals Only" UG Discount] Message-ID: <20030521193553.GB24493@eli.net> /GREAT/ news for us! I'm really happy that Marsee was able to pull this through for us. -J Marsee Henon writes: > The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is coming to Portland, > Oregon this year. Since it's our first conference in the beautiful > Pacific Northwest, we're offering a special discount to the > locals--User Group members in Oregon and Washington. > > With this "locals only" discount, your members get 30% off of OSCON > registration. Anyone who registers by this Friday, May 23, gets a > double discount--30% off of the Early Bird price. After the Early Bird > Date, your members receive 30% off the regular conference pricing. > > Use code os03pug when you register online: > To register, go to: > http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/ord_os03 > > > O'Reilly Open Source Convention > Portland Marriott Downtown, > Portland, OR > July 7-11, 2003 > http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ > > Please let your members know ASAP! > > Thanks, > > Marsee From rootbeer at redcat.com Wed May 21 16:27:05 2003 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Nick Wehr wrote: > I was wondering if anyones messed around with > converting your perl script into a binary executable. I've never found anyone who has needed to do it. (I've met those who have done so, and I've made binaries myself. But I've never found anyone who has _needed_ to do so, in any practical sense.) > I want to be able to distribute scripts that utilize > modules without the need of an interpreter. When Perl 6 is available, you may be able to do this, although I'm not sure. But even using perl2exe means having an interpreter. It's simply hidden away in the gigantic binary file, that's all. Making a binary out of your Perl code won't make your programs faster to run, easier to maintain, or more portable. About the only benefit is that the program itself is easier to install on some machines, and impossible to install on some others. But a well-written installation document (or, in severe cases, an installation program) should help the user to get it going. If you're trying to solve some other problem than the installation problem, compiling Perl programs probably won't help. Sorry! But tell us what the problem is, and maybe we can help. Cheers! --Tom Phoenix From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed May 21 16:46:47 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86ptmc0y7s.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Nick" == Nick Wehr writes: Nick> I was wondering if anyones messed around with Nick> converting your perl script into a binary executable. Nick> I've seen various tools such as Activestates dev kit Nick> and Indigos perl2exe. How have you guys done it? I Nick> want to be able to distribute scripts that utilize Nick> modules without the need of an interpreter. It seems Nick> to me that this is never really directly addressed in Nick> all the books I've read other than embedding your Nick> script into a C program. Anyone? See PAR in the CPAN. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From cdawson at webiphany.com Wed May 21 18:39:01 2003 From: cdawson at webiphany.com (Chris Dawson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I have used perl2exe quite a bit. We like at work because we often don't want to distribute the source code to a program, and we don't have to ask someone to install perl or extra perl modules. In corporate atmospheres people are very wary about installing anything with an installer, and windows permissions often don't allow much if you are not an admin anyway. So, distributing a .exe is often much better. Granted, it is basically perl+script in one big file, but size is not so much an issue in these situations as is the machine lock down that their IT departments have imposed. They usually have big pipes but not big balls. An .exe is much less threatening, though I am not commenting on the rationality of that. And, I know this is not a secure way to "hide" our source code, but for these clients who are scared of perl I am not too worried about that. For me, it works really well and is a cheap way to write a quick .exe, and you can even use Tcl/Tk for GUI programs. Chris On Wed, 21 May 2003, Tom Phoenix wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2003, Nick Wehr wrote: > > > I was wondering if anyones messed around with > > converting your perl script into a binary executable. > > I've never found anyone who has needed to do it. (I've met those who have > done so, and I've made binaries myself. But I've never found anyone who > has _needed_ to do so, in any practical sense.) > > > I want to be able to distribute scripts that utilize > > modules without the need of an interpreter. > > When Perl 6 is available, you may be able to do this, although I'm not > sure. But even using perl2exe means having an interpreter. It's simply > hidden away in the gigantic binary file, that's all. > > Making a binary out of your Perl code won't make your programs faster to > run, easier to maintain, or more portable. About the only benefit is that > the program itself is easier to install on some machines, and impossible > to install on some others. But a well-written installation document (or, > in severe cases, an installation program) should help the user to get it > going. > > If you're trying to solve some other problem than the installation > problem, compiling Perl programs probably won't help. Sorry! But tell us > what the problem is, and maybe we can help. > > Cheers! > > --Tom Phoenix > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From selena at chesnok.com Wed May 21 19:54:49 2003 From: selena at chesnok.com (selena) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16076.7991.804470.311839@basil.chesnok.com> > They usually have big pipes but not big balls. I believe that perfectly describes my IT department. We're all women. -selena "not so big balls" brewington [no harm intended] From rootbeer at redcat.com Wed May 21 20:09:37 2003 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Chris Dawson wrote: > In corporate atmospheres people are very wary about installing anything > with an installer, Why would you trust someone to give you an opaque binary if you don't trust them to give you an installer? Or are you saying that that's what they do, even if it doesn't make sense? :-) > it is basically perl+script in one big file, but size is not so much an > issue in these situations as is the machine lock down that their IT > departments have imposed. Another policy that doesn't make sense to me. If you can install and run an opaque .exe file, why can't you run an installer program that installs a Perl program and (optionally, as needed) perl and some modules? After all, the opaque .exe could do the installation. In fact, that sounds like the way to sneak it past 'em. Cheers! --Tom Phoenix From mikeraz at PATCH.COM Wed May 21 20:10:26 2003 From: mikeraz at PATCH.COM (mikeraz@PATCH.COM) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: <16076.7991.804470.311839@basil.chesnok.com>; from selena@chesnok.com on Wed, May 21, 2003 at 05:54:49PM -0700 References: <16076.7991.804470.311839@basil.chesnok.com> Message-ID: <20030521181026.A15147@patch.com> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 05:54:49PM -0700, selena typed: > > > They usually have big pipes but not big balls. > > I believe that perfectly describes my IT department. We're all women. > > -selena "not so big balls" brewington Pero tiene los heuvos grande! -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity http://www.patch.com/ http://wiki.patch.com/ http://blog.patch.com/sandbox/ The fortune cookie says: If the presence of electricity can be made visible in any part of a circuit, I see no reason why intelligence may not be transmitted instantaneously by electricity. -- Samuel F. B. Morse From cdawson at webiphany.com Wed May 21 20:33:03 2003 From: cdawson at webiphany.com (Chris Dawson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Tom Phoenix wrote: > > In corporate atmospheres people are very wary about installing anything > > with an installer, > > Why would you trust someone to give you an opaque binary if you don't > trust them to give you an installer? Or are you saying that that's what > they do, even if it doesn't make sense? :-) > I am saying that running an installer that writes to the registry and manipulates extension mappings is scarier than running an executable from a trustworthy source like yours truly, especially when I signed a contract with ABC Corp, not ActiveState. I am definitely not saying it makes sense. They trust our .exe because we signed a contract where we agreed not to hose their facilities, but they rarely want to commit to making any changes to their certified software lists on their end. I suppose I could pretend the ActiveState installer is something I wrote, but read below why I am not sure this is a good idea anyway. > > it is basically perl+script in one big file, but size is not so much an > > issue in these situations as is the machine lock down that their IT > > departments have imposed. > > Another policy that doesn't make sense to me. If you can install and run > an opaque .exe file, why can't you run an installer program that installs > a Perl program and (optionally, as needed) perl and some modules? After > all, the opaque .exe could do the installation. In fact, that sounds like > the way to sneak it past 'em. > On Windows, how do you install your non-standard perl modules, like XML::XPath? Using PPM? What if the repository for ActiveState is down, as it is often? Do I send them a zip, ask them to unzip to a temporary location and then run the installer program (um, perhaps a compiled perl program, rinse, repeat, rinse...) to install ActiveState perl, and then that installer also runs PPM to install modules coming from a zip within that temp directory? If any of those steps fail, I have to write logic into my app to handle this. Also, what if my permissions don't allow me to install Perl for some reason? All of this seems like it is much more difficult to do than shipping a .exe perl program, and also still requires a compiled perl app (unless the "install manager" is a batch script or something), and most importantly has a lot of potential for user error. With perl2exe I just test the script as a .pl on my machine and then run perl2exe and ship it. I have done this with several clients and there seem to be no incompatibilities with the .exe produced, which I think was the original question. Oh, and I meant IT departments have "large network connections and very stringent policies when it comes to installing third-party software." That previous remark was a typo. Sorry Selena! :) Later, Chris > Cheers! > > --Tom Phoenix > > From schwern at pobox.com Wed May 21 22:16:06 2003 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030521162119.1500.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030522031606.GB20196@windhund.schwern.org> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 09:21:19AM -0700, Nick Wehr wrote: > I was wondering if anyones messed around with > converting your perl script into a binary executable. > I've seen various tools such as Activestates dev kit > and Indigos perl2exe. How have you guys done it? I > want to be able to distribute scripts that utilize > modules without the need of an interpreter. It seems > to me that this is never really directly addressed in > all the books I've read other than embedding your > script into a C program. Anyone? perl2exe works mostly, though the trial version is nagware IIRC. You might want to look at PAR (Perl ARchive, think JAR). I believe it does what you want and Autrijus is a good author. http://search.cpan.org/author/AUTRIJUS/PAR-0.67/ http://search.cpan.org/author/AUTRIJUS/PAR-0.67/lib/PAR/Intro.pod -- Let me check my notes. http://www.sluggy.com From rootbeer at redcat.com Wed May 21 22:23:15 2003 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Chris Dawson wrote: > I am definitely not saying it makes sense. That's good. When management starts making sense, I'll have to start wearing a tie and stop reading Dilbert. :-) > They trust our .exe because we signed a contract That's a lousy reason to trust someone. But (as I'm sure you realize, but for the benefit of anyone else playing along at home) that means that they are letting you vouch for ActiveState's code, even if they don't know that they're doing that. > All of this seems like it is much more difficult to do than shipping a > .exe perl program, You're right there. We (by which I mean "we who understand enough to be able to do such a thing") should put together an easy way to make executable bundles o' Perl, which is a simple perl binary compiled up with a program and any needed modules in one big executable file. It doesn't require much patching to the perl source to be able to do this, I'm pretty sure. We'll have these advantages, then, over applications like perl2exe: Ours will be free, ours will be open-source, ours can come with perl, ours will work on all platforms, ours will get the latest updates at once, ours should be decompilable, and therefore ours would be able to be upgraded (or even switched from one os to another) in the field. And the pointy-haired bosses will never need to know. --Tom Phoenix From jgoalby at hotmail.com Wed May 21 22:31:07 2003 From: jgoalby at hotmail.com (John Goalby) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] OT: Interested in games Message-ID: I hope noone minds this off-topic post. I thought maybe some of you would be interested. Anyone in the portland area interested in any aspect of game development please join our mailing list. Details at the following page: http://www.omniscium.com/index.asp?page=PagDig Thanks John. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rootbeer at redcat.com Wed May 21 22:31:43 2003 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, now it looks as if PAR is well on the way to what I has talking about.... :-) --Tom Phoenix From cdawson at webiphany.com Wed May 21 23:13:58 2003 From: cdawson at webiphany.com (Chris Dawson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > They trust our .exe because we signed a contract > > That's a lousy reason to trust someone. But (as I'm sure you realize, but > for the benefit of anyone else playing along at home) that means that they I meant to say they can sue us with this contract. They cannot obviously sue ActiveState. This is a legitimate reason to use software for a lot of companies, and is one unfortunate reason why open source software is not as prevalent as we think it should logically be. It still is not about quality only. Anyway, I will shut up now. Thx, Chris From rootbeer at redcat.com Thu May 22 00:29:30 2003 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Chris Dawson wrote: > I meant to say they can sue us with this contract. Of course, they can sue you even if you don't have a contract. But the crucial point (for the savvy business person) is what they could, at least potentially, collect. For example, if you do $200,000,000 worth of damage to their business, being able to sue you won't help them much if your total assets aren't worth more than $20,000. In that case, they'd have to go after some other target, such as ActiveState or Larry Wall. > They cannot obviously sue ActiveState. Perhaps you mean, "It is not obvious to them that they can sue ActiveState". But of course they can. (Whether they can collect is another matter. If the attorneys for ActiveState have done a good job, AS should be well insulated from lawsuits.) Not that any of this matters to pointy-haired bosses. But if they were a little smarter, they'd rather get a Perl program in source form rather than an opaque binary every time, even if they have to use some of those extra brain cells to do the installation, or to hire a contractor to do so. Cheers! --Tom Phoenix From mikeraz at dawg.patch.com Thu May 22 07:49:35 2003 From: mikeraz at dawg.patch.com (Michael Rasmussen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl executables... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030522124935.GB30288@dawg.patch.com> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 09:13:58PM -0700, Chris Dawson wrote: > > I meant to say they can sue us with this contract. They cannot obviously > sue ActiveState. This is a legitimate reason to use software for a lot of > companies, and is one unfortunate reason why open source software is not > as prevalent as we think it should logically be. And when was the last time anyone heard of such a suit being worth anything? This "reason" is one of the myths that needs to be exposed for a sham. -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity http://www.patch.com/ http://wiki.patch.com/ http://wiki.patch.com/index.php/BicycleCommuting The fortune cookie says: Future looks spotty. You will spill soup in late evening. From nick2canz at yahoo.com Thu May 22 15:12:01 2003 From: nick2canz at yahoo.com (Nick Wehr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Mac sockets... Message-ID: <20030522201201.44671.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, thanks for all the feedback from yesterdays .exe post! Here's more junk for you guys to churn- I've made a script which uses the IO::Socket::INET module. It seems to work great in win32. However, when I run the same script (no mods) in darwin, I get errors. I saw on the CPAN tester page that IO moduled failed under macOS 7. I also saw under release notes for MacPerl that "There is no support for PPC sockets in the Socket module. This may change." in the known problems section. I've also had problems trying to install perl 5.8 onto the mac. I am totally new to Mac, so I'm no good there. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: macError.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 20122 bytes Desc: macError.jpg Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20030522/d25d7d56/macError.bin From tex at off.org Thu May 22 15:24:49 2003 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Mac sockets... In-Reply-To: <20030522201201.44671.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com>; from nick2canz@yahoo.com on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:12:01PM -0700 References: <20030522201201.44671.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030522132449.Q31886@gblx.net> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:12:01PM -0700, Nick Wehr wrote: > Hey, thanks for all the feedback from yesterdays .exe > post! Here's more junk for you guys to churn- > > I've made a script which uses the IO::Socket::INET > module. It seems to work great in win32. However, > when I run the same script (no mods) in darwin, I get > errors. When you get a message like "can't call XXXXXX on an undefined value" it means the object you are trying to call the method on didn't initialize properly. Look at the line the error occurred on, figure out what kind of object it's supposed to be, then figure out why it isn't. Typically when you create an object using the 'new' method of a module, the module is nice enough to provide some sort of error handling. Typically for IO modules you can look at "$!" to find out what the error was. Btw, normally people post error messages in text along with the code snippet causing the error. I have to say I got a pretty good chuckle from the screenshot with the big red arrow. Austin From jkeroes at eli.net Thu May 22 18:36:25 2003 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] June meeting date clash Message-ID: <20030522233625.GB14716@eli.net> A.J. noticed that the O'Reilly Hacks book event is on the second Weds of the month, the same night as our usual Perl Monger night. Looks like we have these options: 1. Go to the book event and hold our meeting afterwards at a nearby place. (e.g. House of Louie, Hobo's, ...) Issue: not sure when the book meeting will be over. That makes planning a decent pdx.pm start time difficult. Powell's Tech closes at 9pm, so that's probably the latest we should start a pdx.pm meeting. Anyway, I'll follow up on this with ORA to see if we can get an estimated event duration. 2. Go to this event as/instead of our monthly meeting. Issue: we had a social meeting last month. We really ought to have a tech meeting this time around. 3. Reschedule our meeting. Issue: rescheduling is a pain for lots of people. 4. Pretend the book event isn't happening and hold our usual meeting anyway. Issue: making people choose is pretty mean - and avoidable. Comments? J. ----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon ----- Marsee wrote: > Starting at 7:00 p.m., Rael Dornfest and Rob Flickenger, authors of > O'Reilly's best-selling Hacks series ("Google Hacks," "Linux Server > Hacks," and "Mac OS X Hacks"), will be at Powell's [ed. Tech] to talk > about their top-rated tomes, answer questions, and reveal a few of the > private hacks that didn't make the series. > > Powell's will be giving away a Hacks book with any O'Reilly book > purchased, excluding Pocket References all day June 11. > > Powell's [ed. Technical] Books > June 11, 7pm > 33 NW Park Avenue > Portland, OR > http://www.powells.com/home.html From dpool at hevanet.com Sun May 25 11:41:05 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [PLUG] Requium for HB 2802 References: Message-ID: <3ED0F221.10109@hevanet.com> Rich Shepard wrote: > In today's "Oregonian", Steve Duin's column skewers Karen Minnis for >killing HB 2892. > Hee hee. This is fun. Mr. Duin does a great job pointing out that Minnis personally killed this thing while mouthing the words of the lobbyists and betraying her own party's values of fiscal conservativism. Nice. Here's the link: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf?/base/news/105377817415280.xml We're not done with this thing yet. If you've got the time jot a quick note to your state senator with the above link, do it. Even if they've already heard from you once. The senate actually has the power to move this forward. This would be especially helpful if you live in Kate Brown's Portland district, as the democratic leader, she could make a big difference. Brown.Sen@state.or.us Please pardon the cross posting to a few lists. Perlmongers are asked to direct discussion to the MOSS list so as to keep that low-volume list on topic. david pool From dpool at hevanet.com Mon May 26 10:52:53 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] June meeting date clash References: <20030522233625.GB14716@eli.net> Message-ID: <3ED23855.7070908@hevanet.com> Joshua Keroes wrote: >1. Go to the book event and hold our meeting afterwards at a > nearby place. (e.g. House of Louie, Hobo's, ...) > My Vote! d From joe at oppegaard.net Mon May 26 20:33:48 2003 From: joe at oppegaard.net (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:20 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] June meeting date clash In-Reply-To: <3ED23855.7070908@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <43B05690-8FE3-11D7-AE21-000A956702A0@oppegaard.net> On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 08:52 AM, david pool wrote: > Joshua Keroes wrote: > >> 1. Go to the book event and hold our meeting afterwards at a >> nearby place. (e.g. House of Louie, Hobo's, ...) >> > > My Vote! > Sounds good to me too. -Joe Oppegaard From dpool at hevanet.com Wed May 28 16:26:09 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Open Source Bill Moved to Senate Message-ID: <3ED52971.7010700@hevanet.com> Below is an announcement from the bill's author. It was posted to the PLUG. Again, it's been asked that perlmongers channel discussions to the Moss list. david pool ----------------------------- Friends, Sally at Rep. Barnhart's office says that it's time to "turn our tigers loose on the Senate." An amendment has been proposed to SB 589 to change it from it was (an agricultural bill) into an open-source bill. The language of the amended SB 589 is identical to what the amended version of HB2892 would have been had it lived. The Chair of the committee hearing SB589 has consented to doing this, but the Senators on that committee need to hear support for the idea from their constituents before they're willing to vote it out. Those Senators are: Rick Metsger, Chair SD 26 (D-Welches) sen.rickmetsger@state.or.us Bruce Starr, vice-chair SD 15 (R-Hillsboro, Cornelius) sen.brucestarr@state.or.us Ryan Deckert, SD 14 (D-Beaverton) sen.ryandeckert@state.or.us David Nelson, SD 29 (R-Pendleton) sen.davidnelson@state.or.us We need support from at least three of these four to get the bill out of committee. All four have already heard from Phil Barnhart and have a copy of the amendment, with several pieces of background material, in hand. They understand what the bill is about and just need to hear from their constituents that there is support for it in their districts. Considering the piece that ran in last Sunday's Oregonian, this is an excellent time to call or write to your State Senator about amending and passing out SB 589. Ken Barber Author, HB 2892 From tex at off.org Wed May 28 16:50:04 2003 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! Message-ID: <20030528145004.H1088@gblx.net> Just out of curiosity, what's the ugliest code you've ever seen in the wild (no names attached, to protect the guilty)? By ugly I mean stuff that is so bizarre and/or complicated with either no docs or misleading docs, not intentionally obfuscated stuff. Of my own stuff I think some of the ugliest looks like: if (exists(${*$read_handle}{exp_Pid}) and (${*$read_handle}{exp_Pid}) and (! kill(0,${*$read_handle}{exp_Pid}))) { print STDERR "Got EOF (${*$read_handle}{exp_Pty_Handle} died) reading ${ *$read_handle}{exp_Pty_Handle}\r\n" if ${*$read_handle}{"exp_Debug"}; last CONNECT_LOOP unless defined(${${*$read_handle}{exp_Function}}{"EOF" }); last CONNECT_LOOP unless &{${${*$read_handle}{exp_Function}}{"EOF"}}(@{$ {${*$read_handle}{exp_Parameters}}{"EOF"}}); } so ugly you can smell it just by looking at it. Ugh! Austin From poec at yahoo.com Wed May 28 16:58:30 2003 From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! In-Reply-To: <20030528145004.H1088@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20030528215830.45953.qmail@web40412.mail.yahoo.com> --- Austin Schutz wrote: > Just out of curiosity, what's the ugliest code you've ever seen in > the wild (no names attached, to protect the guilty)? Coincidentally, I was working on some of that yesterday: sub connect { my $self = shift; return $self; } I was pulled off of that project before I could fix this and similar issues. The code was full of little gems like that. It dawned on me that I could have fun and do stuff like: my $object = $object->connect->connect->connect->connect->connect; (It's effectively a no-op) Cheers, Ovid ===== Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ Silence Is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Wed May 28 17:05:15 2003 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! In-Reply-To: <20030528145004.H1088@gblx.net> References: <20030528145004.H1088@gblx.net> Message-ID: <16065.12.18.202.229.1054159515.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > Just out of curiosity, what's the ugliest code you've ever seen in > the wild (no names attached, to protect the guilty)? $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$c=142;if((@a=unx"C*",$_) [20]&48){$h=5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])} @ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$d=unxV,xb25,$_;$b=73;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3]; $d=$d>>8^($f=($t=255)&($d>>12^$d>>4^$d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t& ($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=(map{$_%16or$t^=$c^= ($m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^ =12*($_%16-2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271))[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval Source: http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/03/perl_test.html __________________________ Even curlier than before : http://www.joshheumann.com From dpool at hevanet.com Wed May 28 20:31:26 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] SB 589 Just write em Message-ID: <3ED562EE.30005@hevanet.com> "Oh god, don't ask me to contact my representative again. Will it never end?" Actually, I think this is the last push and this time it's your Senator. If you haven't added their cards to your address book already, you can find them here: http://www.leg.state.or.us/findlegsltr/findset.htm Alternatively, (or additionally) let the committee know what you think: Rick Metsger, Chair SD 26 (D-Welches) sen.rickmetsger@state.or.us Bruce Starr, vice-chair SD 15 (R-Hillsboro, Cornelius) sen.brucestarr@state.or.us Ryan Deckert, SD 14 (D-Beaverton) sen.ryandeckert@state.or.us David Nelson, SD 29 (R-Pendleton) sen.davidnelson@state.or.us If people write, we'll win this thing. Wouldn't that be cool? david pool From dstillwa at xprt.net Wed May 28 22:17:27 2003 From: dstillwa at xprt.net (Daniel C. Stillwaggon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! In-Reply-To: <20030528145004.H1088@gblx.net> Message-ID: <1302EE5C-9184-11D7-8AC0-00039359AFB8@xprt.net> On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 14:50 US/Pacific, Austin Schutz wrote: > Just out of curiosity, what's the ugliest code you've ever seen in > the wild (no names attached, to protect the guilty)? > By ugly I mean stuff that is so bizarre and/or complicated with > either no docs or misleading docs, not intentionally obfuscated stuff. I'm currently working with a web-site that is of Lovecraftian proportions. I can't post any code (you all can feel free to thank me off list), but I had nightmares after surveying what is there. The site is roughly 30-40 separate scripts that are interconnected in a bizarre web of evals and system calls that boggles the mind (boggled mine at least, the index.html starts off the mess by being a static page that is none-the-less a single virtual include...). None of the scripts seems to fully do any one task, and not a single one, or part of one, is documented beyond the "Code Forest Code" level (i.e. "I am making sure that this is uppercase" next to a 'uc'). I looked at the code for about half an hour before I recoiled in horror, recommending an orbital nuking for the whole thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel C. Stillwaggon From dpool at hevanet.com Fri May 30 14:11:07 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON References: Message-ID: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> Kevin Altis wrote: >I only got two responses about the Python party at OSCON on July 9th. Gina >Blaber has asked me to move the start time to 7:30 PM so it doesn't conflict >with the exhibitor reception. She also wants to promote it on their OSCON >events page. > >I would appreciate feedback today, so that I can go ahead and finalize the >time and location. The current proposal is the Lucky Lab from 7:30 PM - >whenever people want to leave, but I could nominally say the event >officially ends at 10 PM (11 PM?), which is probably a good time since it is >a weeknight and people attending the conference will either be getting up >early and/or attending another late night OSCON party ;-) > >If the time or place doesn't work for anyone and/or you have a better >suggestion, get it to me ASAP, otherwise I will finalize the date, place, >and time above later today. > That's the regularly scheduled perlmonger meeting time. I don't think they've made any plans though. Perhaps we could combine the two into a MOSS type hospitality event for our guests from out of town. I'll cc: the perlmonger list to see if there's any interest. Otherwise, i guess i'd just pick whichever one looked good that night. david pool From ingy at ttul.org Fri May 30 15:08:44 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com>; from dpool@hevanet.com on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:11:07PM -0700 References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <20030530130844.C26939@ttul.org> On 30/05/03 12:11 -0700, david pool wrote: > Kevin Altis wrote: > > >I only got two responses about the Python party at OSCON on July 9th. Gina > >Blaber has asked me to move the start time to 7:30 PM so it doesn't conflict > >with the exhibitor reception. She also wants to promote it on their OSCON > >events page. > > > >I would appreciate feedback today, so that I can go ahead and finalize the > >time and location. The current proposal is the Lucky Lab from 7:30 PM - > >whenever people want to leave, but I could nominally say the event > >officially ends at 10 PM (11 PM?), which is probably a good time since it is > >a weeknight and people attending the conference will either be getting up > >early and/or attending another late night OSCON party ;-) > > > >If the time or place doesn't work for anyone and/or you have a better > >suggestion, get it to me ASAP, otherwise I will finalize the date, place, > >and time above later today. > > > > That's the regularly scheduled perlmonger meeting time. I don't think > they've made any plans though. Perhaps we could combine the two into a > MOSS type hospitality event for our guests from out of town. I'll cc: > the perlmonger list to see if there's any interest. Otherwise, i guess > i'd just pick whichever one looked good that night. I think having MOSS sponsor the party would be a great idea. Kevin, could we make this a combined party? The time is ripe for Snakes, Camels and other icons to commune. Cheers, Brian From ingy at ttul.org Fri May 30 15:10:06 2003 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com>; from dpool@hevanet.com on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:11:07PM -0700 References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <20030530131006.D26939@ttul.org> On 30/05/03 12:11 -0700, david pool wrote: > Kevin Altis wrote: > > >I only got two responses about the Python party at OSCON on July 9th. Gina > >Blaber has asked me to move the start time to 7:30 PM so it doesn't conflict > >with the exhibitor reception. She also wants to promote it on their OSCON > >events page. > > > >I would appreciate feedback today, so that I can go ahead and finalize the > >time and location. The current proposal is the Lucky Lab from 7:30 PM - > >whenever people want to leave, but I could nominally say the event > >officially ends at 10 PM (11 PM?), which is probably a good time since it is > >a weeknight and people attending the conference will either be getting up > >early and/or attending another late night OSCON party ;-) > > > >If the time or place doesn't work for anyone and/or you have a better > >suggestion, get it to me ASAP, otherwise I will finalize the date, place, > >and time above later today. > > > > That's the regularly scheduled perlmonger meeting time. I don't think > they've made any plans though. Perhaps we could combine the two into a > MOSS type hospitality event for our guests from out of town. I'll cc: > the perlmonger list to see if there's any interest. Otherwise, i guess > i'd just pick whichever one looked good that night. I think having MOSS sponsor the party would be a great idea. Kevin, could we make this a combined party? The time is ripe for Snakes, Camels and other icons to commune. Cheers, Brian From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri May 30 15:21:48 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <86he7c6v8j.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "david" == david pool writes: david> Kevin Altis wrote: >> I only got two responses about the Python party at OSCON on July 9th. Gina >> Blaber has asked me to move the start time to 7:30 PM so it doesn't conflict >> with the exhibitor reception. She also wants to promote it on their OSCON >> events page. >> >> I would appreciate feedback today, so that I can go ahead and finalize the >> time and location. The current proposal is the Lucky Lab from 7:30 PM - >> whenever people want to leave, but I could nominally say the event >> officially ends at 10 PM (11 PM?), which is probably a good time since it is >> a weeknight and people attending the conference will either be getting up >> early and/or attending another late night OSCON party ;-) >> >> If the time or place doesn't work for anyone and/or you have a better >> suggestion, get it to me ASAP, otherwise I will finalize the date, place, >> and time above later today. >> david> That's the regularly scheduled perlmonger meeting time. I don't think david> they've made any plans though. Perhaps we could combine the two into a david> MOSS type hospitality event for our guests from out of town. I'll cc: david> the perlmonger list to see if there's any interest. Otherwise, i guess david> i'd just pick whichever one looked good that night. Of course, if you have the party wednesday night, you will also be unable to come to *Stonehenge* annual OSCON blowout bash which is also wednesday night from 8pm to 1am. If you can remember a previous one, you weren't there. :) But seriously, Stonehenge has rented one of the largest nice bars downtown, with free food, free open full bar (including Portland microbrews), dancing, pool, and surprises for the entire evening. And it's the Alpaca release party (the long awaited sequel to the Llama book). -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From tex at off.org Fri May 30 15:27:23 2003 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <86he7c6v8j.fsf@red.stonehenge.com>; from merlyn@stonehenge.com on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 01:21:48PM -0700 References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> <86he7c6v8j.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20030530132723.R1088@gblx.net> On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 01:21:48PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > Of course, if you have the party wednesday night, you will also be > unable to come to *Stonehenge* annual OSCON blowout bash which is also > wednesday night from 8pm to 1am. > > If you can remember a previous one, you weren't there. :) > > But seriously, Stonehenge has rented one of the largest nice bars > downtown, with free food, free open full bar (including Portland > microbrews), dancing, pool, and surprises for the entire evening. > "surprises"? Like bill gates jumping out of a big cake wearing only a sequined thong? Austin From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri May 30 15:29:03 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <20030530132723.R1088@gblx.net> References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> <86he7c6v8j.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030530132723.R1088@gblx.net> Message-ID: <86d6i06uwg.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Austin" == Austin Schutz writes: Austin> "surprises"? Like bill gates jumping out of a big cake wearing Austin> only a sequined thong? If I told you, it wouldn't be a surprise... -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From dpool at hevanet.com Fri May 30 15:59:14 2003 From: dpool at hevanet.com (david pool) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> <20030530130844.C26939@ttul.org> Message-ID: <3ED7C622.9040909@hevanet.com> Wow. Much as I like getting 4 or 5 copies of each e-mail, I think it might be good to also use the MOSS wiki to help coordinate events during OSCON week. Et Voila: http://moss.freepan.org/index.cgi?OSCON david pool From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri May 30 17:04:16 2003 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Moss] Re: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Porpig] Python night at OSCON In-Reply-To: <3ED7C622.9040909@hevanet.com> References: <3ED7ACCB.2040705@hevanet.com> <20030530130844.C26939@ttul.org> <3ED7C622.9040909@hevanet.com> Message-ID: <86znl45bxb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "david" == david pool writes: david> Wow. Much as I like getting 4 or 5 copies of each e-mail, I think it david> might be good to also use the MOSS wiki to help coordinate events david> during OSCON week. Et Voila: david> http://moss.freepan.org/index.cgi?OSCON thanks... I put the Stonehenge placeholders on there. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Sat May 31 15:44:17 2003 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! In-Reply-To: <20030528215830.45953.qmail@web40412.mail.yahoo.com> (poec@yahoo.com's message of "Wed, 28 May 2003 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20030528215830.45953.qmail@web40412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ovid writes: > --- Austin Schutz wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, what's the ugliest code you've ever seen in >> the wild (no names attached, to protect the guilty)? > > Coincidentally, I was working on some of that yesterday: > > sub connect { > my $self = shift; > return $self; > } > > I was pulled off of that project before I could fix this and similar > issues. The code was full of little gems like that. It dawned on me > that I could have fun and do stuff like: > > my $object = $object->connect->connect->connect->connect->connect; > > (It's effectively a no-op) Actually, it's an identity. I couldn't think of any reason it's useful except to stub out a function during prototyping. sub remove_duplicates { my $self = shift; # Code should go here... return $self } $object->remove_duplicates->print; MJD, on the other hand, *has* thought of how it can be useful in a production system. I happened to stumble across, and read, a talk of MJD's. I thought it was interesting. See http://perl.plover.com/yak/identity/ Description [I] gave this bizarre talk at TPC 2001 in San Diego. The title backfired: Too many people didn't know what the identity function was, and those who did know assumed that I must have been referring to something else. The identity function is a function such as sub identity { return $_[0] } which returns its argument unchanged. In this talk, I show four unexpectedly useful uses for the identity function Having read the talk, which uses Perl syntax to illustrate the concepts, I was reviewing some emacs lisp code that used the (built-in) identity function in some map (similar to the map in Perl), mapc, or mapconcat construct. Having read about it in MJD's Perl talk helped me understand the lisp construct a bit more. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRunningWolf@att.net From poec at yahoo.com Sat May 31 19:46:22 2003 From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ugly code! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030601004622.15236.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Michael R. Wolf" wrote: > > sub connect { > > my $self = shift; > > return $self; > > } > > > > (It's effectively a no-op) > > Actually, it's an identity. > > I couldn't think of any reason it's useful except to stub out a > function during prototyping. Okay, that I can see. Of course, leaving it in once it gets into production is a different matter. > MJD, on the other hand, *has* thought of how it can be useful in a > production system. I happened to stumble across, and read, a talk of > MJD's. I thought it was interesting. See > > http://perl.plover.com/yak/identity/ Two comments: 1. The connect() subroutine wasn't actually being used (the programmer had another connect() function in a different class -- most confusing). 2. Dominus' slides reminds me of a comment that a chess grandmaster once made regarding Bobby Fisher's playing style: "I can see the brilliance of his positions. I just can't figure out how to get there." :) Dominus does some fascinating stuff and I can see how he does it, but my mind sees things in a procedural or OO fashion. Functional programming is still a bit bizarre for me. Cheers, Ovid ===== Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ Silence Is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com