From masque at pobox.com  Tue Jul 23 18:45:25 2002
From: masque at pobox.com (Masque)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] Re: Mailing list etiquette
In-Reply-To: <02cf01c23277$a2dcedc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <426CDD2C-9E96-11D6-933D-000393450866@pobox.com>

Personally, I think it's best to boil it down to this and this alone:

Reasonable person principle applies.

Now, this assumes that most people on the list are reasonable people!  I 
think that's true in this case.  Any of you who disagree can BITE ME.  
Er, wait a minute....

The community is capable of policing itself.  If people think a behavior 
should stop, they can stop it.  The role of the list owner should be an 
administrative one and he should not be required or expected to enforce 
things.  If the list decides something, let it be, but otherwise it's 
best to let things go.

If the community tolerates a behavior there can be no stopping it.  If 
the community is intolerant of a behavior there will be no starting it.  
It really can be that simple.

My -personal- vote:  Play nice, kids.  :)

Masque.


From masque at pobox.com  Tue Jul 23 20:20:35 2002
From: masque at pobox.com (Masque)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
Message-ID: <8E064623-9EA3-11D6-933D-000393450866@pobox.com>

It's too large.  If we _MUST_ have a header - which is not a true 
condition - let's make it shorter.  I vote for no header at all.

Masque.


From jeff at vpservices.com  Tue Jul 23 21:06:12 2002
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
References: <8E064623-9EA3-11D6-933D-000393450866@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3D3E0B94.5070600@vpservices.com>

Masque wrote:

> It's too large.  If we _MUST_ have a header - which is not a true 
> condition - let's make it shorter.  I vote for no header at all.

I prefer something I can visually sort on, [Pdx-pm] works for me.

-- 
Jeff


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul 23 21:28:35 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] Re: STOP:  Re: Mail list fishing
In-Reply-To: <20020723123237.C4503@gblx.net>
References: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.33.0207231128560.1043-100000@snafu.wgz.org>
	<20020723123237.C4503@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <86sn29zwoc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Austin" == Austin Schutz <tex@off.org> writes:

Austin> 	Perl's community has a very strong reputation for
Austin> being severely abrasive. That has been true in my own
Austin> experience, and doesn't seem to be true of other communities,
Austin> e.g. Python.

No other community has had to put up with 'the web' bringing in
thousands of people who think that HTML is programming, so Perl is
only slightly harder than that.

I'm not saying that excuses the Perl community.  Just giving you what
is generally agreed to be the main cause.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From gabrielle.roth at xo.com  Wed Jul 24 10:43:55 2002
From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
Message-ID: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Zucker [mailto:jeff@vpservices.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 7:06 PM
> To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.

> I prefer something I can visually sort on, [Pdx-pm] works for me.

<aol>me too</>

I like having a header for the list, so I can tell at a glance it's
something I want to read.

-gabrielle
"It's been lovely, but I must scream now."

From jasona at inetarena.com  Wed Jul 24 16:25:20 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
References: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer>

I find the subject header useful.  I generally filter this list by TO || CC
containing, however, there are times when my filtering rules are not intact
and it is nice to be able to sort mail visually.  TIMTOWTDI; Lets think
outside the box and set a precedent here.  Make a subject footer.  The
subject will remain un-blurred, so those of us who are already filtered wont
have to visually s/[Pdx-pm-list]// and yet it will still be obvious if you
are looking for it. I also think the "-list" portion is implicit, so
[Pdx-pm] is sufficient.  I cast my unsolicited vote for $subject .="
[Pdx-pm]";

Argh, this of course, will format funny in the inbox.....

$$$$$$$$$$$$$[Pdx-pm]
Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$[Pdx-pm]
#####[Pdx-pm]
@#@@@@@@@@#@#[Pdx-pm]

instead of......
[Pdx-pm]$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Re: [Pdx-pm]$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[Pdx-pm]#####
[Pdx-pm]@#@@@@@@@@#@#

At first, I thought it would make me dizzy, but looking at it, its not so
bad. Not like it would be hard for any of us to actually format the subject
line so all the footers lined up nicely on the end..... Nevermind, this
would be futile, even plain-text has some .TTF qualaties under Windows.

Jason White

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roth, Gabrielle" <gabrielle.roth@xo.com>
To: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Zucker [mailto:jeff@vpservices.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 7:06 PM
> > To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
>
> > I prefer something I can visually sort on, [Pdx-pm] works for me.
>
> <aol>me too</>
>
> I like having a header for the list, so I can tell at a glance it's
> something I want to read.
>
> -gabrielle
> "It's been lovely, but I must scream now."
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


From mikeraz at PATCH.COM  Wed Jul 24 17:52:18 2002
From: mikeraz at PATCH.COM (mikeraz@PATCH.COM)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
In-Reply-To: <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer>; from jasona@inetarena.com on Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:25:20PM -0700
References: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net> <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <20020724155218.A24492@patch.com>

On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:25:20PM -0700, Jason White typed:
> I find the subject header useful.  I generally filter this list by TO || CC
> ...
> [Pdx-pm] is sufficient.  I cast my unsolicited vote for $subject .="
> [Pdx-pm]";

The mailing list is now on Mailman, which is written in the other P language, 
Python.  The subject [Pdx-pm-list] prefix is a default based on the list name.
While the list manager can change this to an arbitrary string ([PDX-Perl-rants] 
anyone?) there is not a choice between prefix and postfix for the string.  


Unless someone with Python skills wants to path Mailman. ??

-- 
      Michael Rasmussen  aka  mikeraz
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://www.patch.com/ http://wiki.patch.com/
       http://blog.patch.com/sandbox/

 "They that give up essential liberty to obtain
  temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
		-- Benjamin Franklin 	

   and the fortune cookie says:
Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.

From tkil at scrye.com  Wed Jul 24 18:19:43 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
In-Reply-To: <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer>
References: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net>
	<005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <gwurkvhm8.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> I generally filter this list by TO || CC containing,

Note that MailMan adds a "List-Id" header:

   List-Id: <pdx-pm-list.mail.pm.org>

Which makes filtering trivial.

Jason> however, there are times when my filtering rules are not intact
Jason> and it is nice to be able to sort mail visually.

Fair enough.  As it was, my old procmail recipie didn't catch the new
address, so I had to look in my spam bucket for a few of the
messages.  Not a pretty sight.

Me personally, I don't care all that much.  Completely undecorated
subject lines look the best to me, since I get the context by where
I'm reading it.  But I know that not everyone does that, so...

Heh.  On top of it all, I think that Jason and I managed to double the
amount of mail I've ever gotten off this list, so... :)

t.

From cp at onsitetech.com  Wed Jul 24 18:54:28 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] New header
References: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net> <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer> <20020724155218.A24492@patch.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c2336d$73845760$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: <mikeraz@patch.com>
To: "Jason White" <jasona@inetarena.com>
Cc: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.


> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:25:20PM -0700, Jason White typed:
> > I find the subject header useful.  I generally filter this list by TO ||
CC
> > ...
> > [Pdx-pm] is sufficient.  I cast my unsolicited vote for $subject .="
> > [Pdx-pm]";
>
> The mailing list is now on Mailman, which is written in the other P
language,
> Python.  The subject [Pdx-pm-list] prefix is a default based on the list
name.
> While the list manager can change this to an arbitrary string
([PDX-Perl-rants]
> anyone?) there is not a choice between prefix and postfix for the string.
>
> Unless someone with Python skills wants to path Mailman. ??

I went ahead and changed the subject line prefix to [Pdx-pm], so I was
surprised that the last email that I received did not have the correct
prefix.  Of course, since it was a Re: line, perhaps mailman is smart enough
to not munge the subject line.  I'm sending this with a new subject to see
if, in fact, my change to the subject line prefix has worked.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From jasona at inetarena.com  Wed Jul 24 18:53:39 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Re: [Pdx-pm-list] <- This new header sucks.
References: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A04618FBB@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net> <005e01c23358$9d910220$5b86fc83@archer> <20020724155218.A24492@patch.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c2336d$55eca860$5b86fc83@archer>

The perl mongers list server runs on
python......................................................................
......



From jasona at inetarena.com  Wed Jul 24 19:33:27 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Appologies
Message-ID: <012301c23372$e536d720$5b86fc83@archer>

Many things in life are a matter of perspective.  Mine changed significantly when I read an email regarding the function of this list.  I subscribed to this list at least two years ago, maybe more, after writing my first few perl scripts (Like making command line amp play random mp3s continuously and a fairly complex auto-player for an online game).  I signed up so that I could monitor threads and pick up some useful pointers over time without having to wait until I had a problem to drop in and expect answers.  I picked this list because it was the first local perl user list that I found.  Perl Mongers doesn't detail their charter and I assumed this was a good place to ask newbie kinds of questions if I needed someplace to ask them.

After reading in more detail about what happens at PM meetings and reading an email about this being more of a meeting and agenda list, I realize that I have been thinking of this list incorrectly.  I realize now that the sometimes months of no threads and the only help related ones usually being quite complex, are because this is not a help desk.  I appologise for the pieces of my complaints that were centered around the quality of help recieved.

Additionally, I appologise to Tkil, the metaphor war was uncalled for(try saying that 3 times fast!) and I didn't mean you explicitly, I meant the general response.  It was gracious for you to write so thorough an example after I was unpleasent to you.
(And just so you know, many people came to your defense out of list)

For the record, I have read the core O'reilly books and keep them around for reference, however, I don't use perl every day and sometimes things get fuzzy.  Sometimes it is difficult to find information that you guys take for granted.  For example, when I didn't know what qw() was.  Try finding it documented in an O'reilly book, used extensivly, not documented.  (I didn't ask questions like that here, I found them on my own).  I just recently learned of perldoc and perlfunc. To my recollection, they aren't listed in any of the books I've read, or suggested on any of the sites I've been to.  What I would like to know is where I can find a table of the subjects available via perldoc. `perldoc perltoot` is not intuative and I think its strange when people ask why I haven't looked there, What I would like to know is How do I know its there?  Where do I learn that if I want to know about OOP, I want perltoot, not perloop or ooperl?

Jason White


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From plumpy at krimedawg.org  Wed Jul 24 20:38:18 2002
From: plumpy at krimedawg.org (Michael P)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Appologies
In-Reply-To: <012301c23372$e536d720$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207241830530.13489-100000@mcgruff.krimedawg.org>

On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Jason White wrote:

> For example, when I didn't know what qw() was.  Try finding it
> documented in an O'reilly book, used extensivly, not documented.

It is documented, but not where you'd think.  The trick is that qw (like q
and qq) aren't functions; they just look that way.  But you can just as
easily use qw[foo barf] or q%foo barf% or even qw;foo barf; (they work
like m// and s/// in that respect).

Anyway, it's in the Camel at 2.6.4 and 2.8. (and the index!)

> What I would like to know is where I can find a table of the subjects
> available via perldoc.

perldoc perl

Another helpful trick you might not know is 'perldoc -f function' to look
up a specific function.  For example 'perldoc -f split' gives you split's
usage.


From tkil at scrye.com  Wed Jul 24 23:50:45 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Appologies
In-Reply-To: <012301c23372$e536d720$5b86fc83@archer>
References: <012301c23372$e536d720$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <gy9c08l7e.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> this [list] is not a help desk.? I appologise for the pieces of
Jason> my complaints that were centered around the quality of help
Jason> recieved.

For whatever it's worth, I don't mind seeing help requests come across
the smaller local lists.  These lists are less intimidating than the
big worldwide feeds, and it's a lot of fun to interact with people in
person as well as on the list.  Consider it a sort of minor leagues,
if you'll pardon the sports analogy.

And the comments (by you and by others) about there being highly
abrasive elements in the Perl "help" community are certainly true.
I've called one of them an "intellectual bully" in his presence, and
all it earned me was a kickban.  :)  So I just (mostly) try to be
polite and not let it bother me.  Much.  I would like to make it
better, but I can't change others, and I only have so much energy to
help others at all ... so it's very hit or miss.

Jason> I appologise to Tkil, 

Thanks.  Interestingly enough, I can blow off pretty much any insult
or rude behavior directed towards myself.  It's when I see others
being abused, or being embarrassed, that I get very uncomfortable.
(This is what I mean when I say that I left the Perl community because
I was "too thin-skinned".)

The current issue seemed to be just a miscommunication and a
misunderstanding (at least that's what I saw).

If anything, I feel I should apologize for "talking down" at you a
bit; much of my mail was intended as suggestions for helping us help
you, but I could have phrased it more diplomatically.

Jason> It was gracious for you to write so thorough an example after I
Jason> was unpleasent to you.

And this is the flip side of how I interact with help requests or
questions that intrigue me.  "Hm, I don't know; let's experiment to
find out."  I had never used Storable before, so I learned something
in exchange (cf my concept of "payment" for helping others in a "free"
forum).

Jason> (And just so you know, many people came to your defense out of
Jason> list)

Enough of them copied me that I knew it.  And it is appreciated.  :)

Jason> Sometimes it is difficult to find information that you guys
Jason> take for granted.?

Which is why every Perl help medium I've been on (irc, usenet, mailing
lists, meetings, etc) is open to people asking "where do I find out
more about <X>?".  After a while, we might start suggesting that they
start learning how to help themselves, but we can help with that, too.

Jason> For example, when I didn't know what qw() was.? Try finding it
Jason> documented in an O'reilly book, used extensivly, not
Jason> documented.? (I didn't ask questions like that here, I found
Jason> them on my own).?

Lurking on the #perl channel on IRC was a very educational experience,
because people will rapid-fire which bits of documentation to look at
for a particular thing.  Also, I strongly recommend reading through
the entire FAQ at some point; even if you don't understand all of it,
or need that section at the time, it will "stick in your mind" so you
might remember to look there when you *do* need it.

Jason> I just recently learned of perldoc and perlfunc.  To my
Jason> recollection,?they aren't listed in any of the books I've read,
Jason> or suggested on any of the sites I've been to.?

Heh.  Take a look in the index of _Programming Perl_ (the "Camel"
book) [3rd ed], under "Documentation".  There are quite a few links
there.  As I mention below, googling for "perl documentation" would
have helped you out, too.

Jason> What I would like to know is where I can find a table of the
Jason> subjects available via perldoc.

As others have already pointed out, there's "perldoc perl", which is
an introduction with a list of other pages.  The more detailed table
of contents if "perltoc".  On a proper Unix install, these pages
should all be accessable via "man" as well.

There are versions of it on the web, too:  www.perldoc.com

Finally, there are the general solutions; going to Google and
searching for "object-oriented perl" shows many useful pages; a web
version of perltoot happens to be 4th on the list.

For further reading/browsing, I strongly recommend checking out
search.cpan.org -- much of perl's power is in its extensive library of
modules; as well as doing much of the work for you, they are often
sources of fascinating code.  (Probably not a good place to look to
learn basic perl, but for the hairy stuff...)

I fully realize that the perl documentation set is huge, and it's not
obvious where to look for things.  In a way, this is is a part of the
task of learning a new language, especially one as rich and subtle as
perl is.  This is why "learning perl in 24 hours" is simply not going
to work; you can learn enough to do simple things, but you won't get a
feel for the language itself.  (To give a personal example, I'm at a
very primitive level in Visual Basic; I can make it do things, but I
know I'm doing it the hard way.  I wouldn't feel justified in saying I
"know" the language, but I know my way around.)

Which brings us back to the idea of community.  I learned a huge
amount about Perl -- details, idioms, subtleties, tricks, modules,
features -- by spending time on IRC, usenet, lists, etc.  Interacting
with people online, then occasionally continuing those conversations
face-to-face, has made local lists quite enjoyable for me, and I feel
that they should be inclusive rather than exclusive until volume
becomes an issue.  

In particular, I don't mind seeing help requests on local lists;
amusingly enough, one of the more frequent posters to the Boulder
(Colorado) Linux Users' Group list is Ralf Mattes -- from Germany.
Who also happens to be a Perl geek, so it all works out.

Babble, babble,
t.


From karic at lclark.edu  Thu Jul 25 12:23:08 2002
From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
Message-ID: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>

Hey all...

Now that all that madness is past...  I've got another regex stumper.  

I want to clean up phone numbers that people submit in a form.  They
could come in all kinds of ways, like...

(503) 123-4567
503.123.4567
(503)-123-4567
123-4567
503 123 4567
503-123-4567 ext. 89
123-4567 ext. 89
503-123-4567-mom's house

I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part to
just xxx-xxx-xxxx.  I also want to leave alone anything that comes
after that - which is obviously the tough part.  The logic should be
basically this: just process through the number left to right,
grabbing the first seven or ten numbers, then reformat those and tack
on whatever's left.  The challenge is figuring out when it's a
seven-digit or a ten-digit number.

I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic ways of
doing this.  I'm just wondering if there's a simpler regex approach to
this...  Any ideas?

-kari.

From cb at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 13:56:02 2002
From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian Brink)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPOEKAGIAA.cb@onsitetech.com>

You may want to look at Number::Phone::US
http://search.cpan.org/doc/KENNEDYH/Number-Phone-US-1.3/lib/Number/Phone/US.
pm

Christian Brink
CTO
ONSITE! Technology
www.onsitetech.com
503.233.1418
cb@onsitetech.com

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!





> -----Original Message-----
> From: pdx-pm-list-admin@mail.pm.org
> [mailto:pdx-pm-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Kari Chisholm
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:23 AM
> To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org
> Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
>
>
>
> Hey all...
>
> Now that all that madness is past...  I've got another regex stumper.
>
> I want to clean up phone numbers that people submit in a form.  They
> could come in all kinds of ways, like...
>
> (503) 123-4567
> 503.123.4567
> (503)-123-4567
> 123-4567
> 503 123 4567
> 503-123-4567 ext. 89
> 123-4567 ext. 89
> 503-123-4567-mom's house
>
> I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part to
> just xxx-xxx-xxxx.  I also want to leave alone anything that comes
> after that - which is obviously the tough part.  The logic should be
> basically this: just process through the number left to right,
> grabbing the first seven or ten numbers, then reformat those and tack
> on whatever's left.  The challenge is figuring out when it's a
> seven-digit or a ten-digit number.
>
> I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic ways of
> doing this.  I'm just wondering if there's a simpler regex approach to
> this...  Any ideas?
>
> -kari.
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list


From cp at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 13:56:54 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <013d01c2340d$0c01d0e0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kari Chisholm" <karic@lclark.edu>
To: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...


>
> Hey all...
>
> Now that all that madness is past...  I've got another regex stumper.
>
> I want to clean up phone numbers that people submit in a form.  They
> could come in all kinds of ways, like...
>
> (503) 123-4567
> 503.123.4567
> (503)-123-4567
> 123-4567
> 503 123 4567
> 503-123-4567 ext. 89
> 123-4567 ext. 89
> 503-123-4567-mom's house
>
> I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part to
> just xxx-xxx-xxxx.  I also want to leave alone anything that comes
> after that - which is obviously the tough part.  The logic should be
> basically this: just process through the number left to right,
> grabbing the first seven or ten numbers, then reformat those and tack
> on whatever's left.  The challenge is figuring out when it's a
> seven-digit or a ten-digit number.
>
> I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic ways of
> doing this.  I'm just wondering if there's a simpler regex approach to
> this...  Any ideas?

Kari,

My suggestion, if you're allowed to do this:  rethink the problem.  Rather
than try to clean up their data, only allow them to enter data in a format
that *you* specify.  One way to do this is to use the following text on the
form, near the input box.

  Phone (xxx-xxx-xxxx format only):

Then, in your code:

  my $tainted_phone = param('phone');
  my ($phone) = $tainted_phone =~ /(\d\d\d-\d\d\d-\d\d\d\d)/;
  if ( ! $phone ) {
      # some error processing and send 'em back to the form
  }
  else {
      # do the right thing
  }

Of course, you'll have to customize that to your needs (such as allowing an
optional extension), but I find it easier to ensure that the user does
things right, rather than try to guess what the user did.

Of course, another trick is to provide separate input boxes for the area
code, exchange, number, extension, and perhaps a note.  Imagining that the
underscores are input boxes:

  ___-___-____ x _____  Note: _________

That's even easier to parse, but requires a bit more gruntwork.  You'll have
to let the users know what is mandatory and what is optional, though.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From tkil at scrye.com  Thu Jul 25 14:28:49 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <gd6tbppxq.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Kari" == Kari Chisholm <karic@lclark.edu> writes:

Kari> I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part to
Kari> just xxx-xxx-xxxx.  I also want to leave alone anything that comes
Kari> after that - which is obviously the tough part.  The logic should be
Kari> basically this: just process through the number left to right,
Kari> grabbing the first seven or ten numbers, then reformat those and tack
Kari> on whatever's left.  The challenge is figuring out when it's a
Kari> seven-digit or a ten-digit number.

Kari> I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic
Kari> ways of doing this.  I'm just wondering if there's a simpler
Kari> regex approach to this...  Any ideas?

Get a list of all the formats you think you need to worry about, write
a set of regexps that can handle all of them, then return an error if
you can't parse a new one.  That list bit is important; this keeps you
from making assumptions that might trip you up.

[I unintentionally did this to GBARR's Date::Parse::str2time function.
Going through a few 100k mail messages, I found about 0.1% that had
bogus date strings that it couldn't parse gracefully.  Bit of a stress
test there.  And a sign of over-zealous error checking: str2time
rejected New Zealand Daylight Saving Time, because UTC+1300 is
"obviously" a bogus time zone...]

A straightforward version might be:

| #!/usr/bin/perl -w
| 
| use strict;
| 
| sub normalize_phone_number ( $ $ )
| {
|     my ($in, $default_ac) = @_;
| 
|     # abbreviations
|     my $d3 = '(\d{3})';
|     my $d4 = '(\d{4})';
| 
|     # is it already sane?
|     $in =~ /^    $d3    [\.\-\s] $d3 [\.\-\s] $d4 \s* (.*)/x
|       and return "$1-$2-$3 $4";
| 
|     # area code in parens
|     $in =~ /^ \( $d3 \) [\-\s]   $d3 [\-\s]   $d4 \s* (.*)/x
|       and return "$1-$2-$3 $4";
| 
|     # missing area code
|     $in =~ /^                    $d3 [\.\-\s] $d4 \s* (.*)/x
|       and return "$default_ac-$1-$2 $3";
| 
|     return;
| }
| 
| while (my $in = <DATA>)
| {
|     chomp $in;
|     if (my $out = normalize_phone_number $in, '503')
|     {
|         printf "%-30s => %s\n", $in, $out;
|     }
|     else
|     {
|         print "$in: couldn't parse!\n";
|     }
| }
| 
| __END__
| (503) 123-4567
| 503.123.4567
| (503)-123-4567
| 123-4567
| 503 123 4567
| 503-123-4567 ext. 89
| 123-4567 ext. 89
| 503-123-4567-mom's house
| 858-123-4239 x23

t.

From nforrett at wgz.com  Thu Jul 25 14:47:42 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207251215330.1134-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Kari Chisholm wrote:

> I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part to
> just xxx-xxx-xxxx.  I also want to leave alone anything that comes
> after that - which is obviously the tough part.  The logic should be
> basically this: just process through the number left to right,
> grabbing the first seven or ten numbers, then reformat those and tack
> on whatever's left.  The challenge is figuring out when it's a
> seven-digit or a ten-digit number.

Here is a start...

$line =~ s/(?:
              \(?        # optional leading paren
                (\d{3})  # capture area code
              \)?        # optional closing paren
              [-\s.]?     # optional hyphen, space or period
           )?       # make the whole area code bit optional
          (\d{3})   # capture first three digits
          [-\s.]?   # optional hyphen, space or period
          (\d{4})   # capture last four digits
         /(\1) \2-\3/x ;

(503) 123-4567           => (503) 123-4567
503.123.4567             => (503) 123-4567
(503)-123-4567           => (503) 123-4567
123-4567                 => () 123-4567
503 123 4567             => (503) 123-4567
503-123-4567 ext. 89     => (503) 123-4567 ext. 89
123-4567 ext. 89         => () 123-4567 ext. 89
503-123-4567-mom's house => (503) 123-4567-mom's house

Plus a few extra cases...

asdf1234567fdsa          => asdf() 123-4567fdsa
asdf1234567890fdsa       => asdf(123) 456-7890
asdf 12345678 fdsa       => asdf () 123-45678 fdsa

This assumes you don't mind the extra parens in the case of a missing area
code. Though Christian probably had the better suggestion. =)

> I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic ways of doing
> this.  I'm just wondering if there's a simpler regex approach to this...  
> Any ideas?

-- Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'

umop apisdn aje noh







From jkeroes at eli.net  Thu Jul 25 14:02:03 2002
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net>

On (Thu, Jul 25 10:23), Kari Chisholm wrote:
> I want to clean up phone numbers that people submit in a form.  They
> could come in all kinds of ways, like...
> 
> (503) 123-4567
> 503.123.4567
> (503)-123-4567
> 123-4567
> 503 123 4567
> 503-123-4567 ext. 89
> 123-4567 ext. 89
> 503-123-4567-mom's house
> 
> I want to convert the actual seven- or ten-digit phone number part
> to just xxx-xxx-xxxx. [snip] I've conceptualized any number of
> highly complex and idiotic ways of doing this.  I'm just wondering
> if there's a simpler regex approach to this...  Any ideas?

Just make sure you trim the PDX-pm email footer off the DATA section.

-Joshua


#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use strict;

our $AREACODE  = 503; # Output default
our $DELIM     = '-'; # Output default

my $areacode_re	 = qr/\(? ( \d{3} )? \)?/x;
my $delim_re	 = qr/[-. ]/;
my $lastseven_re = qr/( \d{3} ) $delim_re ( \d{4} )/x;
my $ext_delim_re = qr/(?:ext\s? | ext| x)/x;
my $ext_re	 = qr/( \d+ )/x;

my $phone_re	 = qr/
    $areacode_re   \s*
    $delim_re?	   \s*
    $lastseven_re  \s*
    $ext_delim_re? \s*
    $ext_re?
/x;

while (<DATA>) {
    chomp;
    my $nice = format_phone($_) || '?';
    printf "%25s => %s\n", $_, $nice;
}

exit;

# subs
sub format_phone {
    my $ugly = shift or die "Didn't get a phone number. Aborting";
    my ($areacode, $mid3, $last4, $ext) = $ugly =~ $phone_re;

    unless ($mid3 && $last4) {
	warn "Unable to parse phone number: '$ugly'";
	return;
    }

    $areacode ||= $AREACODE;

    my $nice = join $DELIM, ($areacode, $mid3, $last4);
    $nice .= " x$ext" if $ext;

    return $nice;
}

__DATA__
(503) 123-4567
503.123.4567
(503)-123-4567
123-4567
503 123 4567
503-123-4567 ext. 89
123-4567 ext. 89
503-123-4567-mom's house


From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Thu Jul 25 14:08:45 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207251203081.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Kari Chisholm wrote:

> I want to clean up phone numbers that people submit in a form.  They
> could come in all kinds of ways,

This sounds like a job for a module. If Number::Phone::US (from CPAN)
won't do what you want, you should submit a patch to its author. :-)

Cheers!

--Tom Phoenix


From dcstevens at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 25 15:18:15 2002
From: dcstevens at earthlink.net (Earthlink)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
Message-ID: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>

I'm trying to find the perl built-in variable for the current subroutine name (the analog to __FUNCTION__ in gcc), so that I can pass the name to a calling function, as in 
the code below. I've looked through the Coriolis and O'Reilly texts, and at several on-line FAQs. Anyone know what it's called?

    sub foo
    {
        my ($callerName) = @_;
        printf("foo called from $callerName\n");
    }

    sub callingFxn
    {
        my $currentFxnName = ???;
        foo($currentFxnName);
    }



From cp at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 16:19:07 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subscribing
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net>
Message-ID: <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

I'm getting a few mailings that I need to approve because people have failed
to sign up for the list.  If you haven't signed up, you probably aren't
seeing this message :)  If you have signed up and use more than one account
... be sure to sign up the other account.
--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From jkeroes at eli.net  Thu Jul 25 16:47:14 2002
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
In-Reply-To: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
References: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
Message-ID: <20020725214714.GM13315@eli.net>

On (Thu, Jul 25 13:18), Earthlink wrote:
> I'm trying to find the perl built-in variable for the current subroutine name (the analog to __FUNCTION__ in gcc)


#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use strict;

foo();

sub foo {

    my ($package, $filename, $line, $subroutine, $hasargs,
	$wantarray, $evaltext, $is_require, $hints, $bitmask) = caller(0);

    print <<EOB;
package: $package
file:    $filename
line:    $line
sub:     $subroutine
EOB

}

__END__

sandbox:~/work/sw/lib/ELI-Devices $ perl ~/caller.pl                                    
package: main
file:    /home/jkeroes/caller.pl
line:    5
sub:     main::foo


perldoc -f caller for more info.

From todd_caine at eli.net  Thu Jul 25 16:31:28 2002
From: todd_caine at eli.net (Todd Caine)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <3D406E30.C87ECCCC@eli.net>

Kari Chisholm wrote:

> I've conceptualized any number of highly complex and idiotic ways of
> doing this.

Me too.

sandbox:/tmp/nums[1749]> cat source
(503) 123-4567
503.123.4567
(503)-123-4567
123-4567
503 123 4567
503-123-4567
503-123-4567 ext. 69
123-4567 ext. 69
503-123-4567-mom's house
sandbox:/tmp/nums[1750]> perl -ple
'/(?:\D*(\d{3,4})\D?(?{local@n=(@n,$1)})){1,3}(?{local$r=join("-",@n)})(?{$_=$r."
".substr($_,pos($_))})/g' source
503-123-4567
503-123-4567
503-123-4567
123-4567
503-123-4567
503-123-4567
503-123-4567 ext. 69
123-4567 ext. 69
503-123-4567 mom's house


From cb at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 16:53:39 2002
From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian Brink)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
In-Reply-To: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
Message-ID: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPCEKLGIAA.cb@onsitetech.com>

You can use caller in the foo sub to get the calling sub.

http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/pod/func/caller.html

Christian Brink
CTO 
ONSITE! Technology
www.onsitetech.com
503.233.1418
cb@onsitetech.com

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme! 





> -----Original Message-----
> From: pdx-pm-list-admin@mail.pm.org
> [mailto:pdx-pm-list-admin@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Earthlink
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 1:18 PM
> To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org
> Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find the perl built-in variable for the current 
> subroutine name (the analog to __FUNCTION__ in gcc), so that I 
> can pass the name to a calling function, as in 
> the code below. I've looked through the Coriolis and O'Reilly 
> texts, and at several on-line FAQs. Anyone know what it's called?
> 
>     sub foo
>     {
>         my ($callerName) = @_;
>         printf("foo called from $callerName\n");
>     }
> 
>     sub callingFxn
>     {
>         my $currentFxnName = ???;
>         foo($currentFxnName);
>     }
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

From tkil at scrye.com  Thu Jul 25 17:59:53 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
In-Reply-To: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
References: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
Message-ID: <g65z3behi.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "dcs" == dcstevens  <Earthlink> writes:

dcs> I'm trying to find the perl built-in variable for the current
dcs> subroutine name (the analog to __FUNCTION__ in gcc), so that I
dcs> can pass the name to a calling function, as in the code
dcs> below. I've looked through the Coriolis and O'Reilly texts, and
dcs> at several on-line FAQs. Anyone know what it's called?

perldoc -f caller


From tkil at scrye.com  Thu Jul 25 18:17:24 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
In-Reply-To: <g65z3behi.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
References: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
	<g65z3behi.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <15680.34564.290055.496219@brand.scrye.com>

To amplify my previous response:

| #!/usr/bin/perl -w
| 
| use strict;
| 
| sub squawk
| {
|     my ($sub)         = (caller 1)[ 3 ];
|     $sub ||= 'main';
|     my ($file, $line) = (caller 0)[ 1, 2 ];
|     print "squawk: called from $sub ($file\: $line)\n";
| }
| 
| sub foo { squawk(); }
| 
| print "in main\n";
| squawk();
| 
| foo();
| 
| exit 0;

Which gives me:

| $ ./show-caller
| in main
| squawk: called from main (./show-caller: 16)
| squawk: called from main::foo (./show-caller: 13)

I've used this to do a custom version of carp/cluck before (perldoc
Carp).  It's a bit annoying that we have to look at two different
"caller" levels to get information about one point, but whatever
works...

t.


From cb at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 18:47:16 2002
From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian Brink)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subscribing
In-Reply-To: <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPEELBGIAA.cb@onsitetech.com>

> I'm getting a few mailings that I need to approve because people
> have failed
> to sign up for the list.  If you haven't signed up, you probably aren't
> seeing this message :)

Just as a note: I'll be announcing all portland.pm.org website outages on
the index page at portland.pm.org :)


From rootbeer at redcat.com  Thu Jul 25 18:09:55 2002
From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] regex & phone numbers...
In-Reply-To: <013d01c2340d$0c01d0e0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207251351280.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Curtis Poe wrote:

> Of course, another trick is to provide separate input boxes

Is this happening on the web?

As a user, having separate boxes is something I dislike. Just last week, I
had to enter a phone number into separate input boxes. I could copy the
number from a web page (it's not _my_ number!), but I couldn't paste it
into the three boxes. I had to switch from window to window to copy the
phone number.

As a general principle, make things easier for the user, even if that's
harder for the programmer. After all, there are a lot more users than
programmers.

Cheers!

--Tom Phoenix



From jkeroes at eli.net  Thu Jul 25 17:01:49 2002
From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subscribing
In-Reply-To: <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net>

On (Thu, Jul 25 14:19), Curtis Poe wrote:
> I'm getting a few mailings that I need to approve because people have failed
> to sign up for the list.  If you haven't signed up, you probably aren't
> seeing this message :)  If you have signed up and use more than one account
> ... be sure to sign up the other account.

FWIW, if you sign up two accounts, MailMan can be configured to sent mail to
just one. This will permit email submissions from either account.

1. Go to http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

2. Type one of your subscribed email addresses in the text box beside
the "Edit Options" button, then click the button.

3. Set "Disable mail delivery" to "On"

4. Type password below, click "Submit My Changes"

-Joshua

From nforrett at wgz.com  Thu Jul 25 17:31:25 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Newbie question ... built-in for subroutine name?
In-Reply-To: <HAPPYQhXpfQkpzMtTl000000b8d@mailgate.omneon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207251530510.1134-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Earthlink wrote:

> I'm trying to find the perl built-in variable for the current subroutine name (the analog to __FUNCTION__ in gcc), so that I can pass the name to a calling function, as in 
> the code below. I've looked through the Coriolis and O'Reilly texts, and at several on-line FAQs. Anyone know what it's called?

perldoc -f caller

-- Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'

umop apisdn aje noh




From cp at onsitetech.com  Thu Jul 25 17:16:40 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subscribing
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net>
Message-ID: <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Keroes" <jkeroes@eli.net>

> FWIW, if you sign up two accounts, MailMan can be configured to sent mail
to
> just one. This will permit email submissions from either account.
>
> 1. Go to http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
> 2. Type one of your subscribed email addresses in the text box beside
> the "Edit Options" button, then click the button.
>
> 3. Set "Disable mail delivery" to "On"
>
> 4. Type password below, click "Submit My Changes"

Aah!  Nice to know.  I'm liking mailman better than majordomo already.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 30 11:16:28 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson will be in town tomorrow night and while
this is a bit of short notice for a technical meeting, a social meeting
would be great.  My suggestion is the Lucky Lab, http://www.luckylab.com/,
for which you can find directions at http://www.luckylab.com/lab_trans.html.
They're at 915 SE Hawthorne Blvd, so they should be easy for most of us to
get to.

If you haven't heard of them, Michael Schwern, a 2002 nominee for the
ActiveState Active Awards
(http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Awards/ActiveAwards.html?_x=1) is well
known for his contributions to Perl's automated testing modules and culture.

At Perl Conference 5, Brian Ingerson, shared with Neil Watkiss an award for
Best Module.  This module, of course, was Inline, and is one of the coolest
toys you can lay your hands on, assuming that you happen to know another
language that you can embed in Perl.

Interesting coincidence:  my current pet project would have been much more
difficult without the Test::More module that Michael Schwern wrote, and I
need to convert parts of it to C using Inline::C, which Brian Ingerson
wrote.

If anyone else would like to come, feel free.  We'll be there around 6:00
pm.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 30 16:51:51 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

I have been informed that Personal TelCo is meeting at the Lucky Lab
tomorrow.  I have no idea how many people they are or whether or not there
will be space for us.  Since I haven't had many replies, it looks like this
isn't a problem, but I wanted to give people a heads up.  Let me know if
you're going to be there tomorrow and, if we have a large crowd, maybe we
can rethink the location.

Let me know ASAP, though, as this is a much shorter timeframe then I would
care for.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Poe" <cp@onsitetech.com>
To: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson


> Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson will be in town tomorrow night and
while
> this is a bit of short notice for a technical meeting, a social meeting
> would be great.  My suggestion is the Lucky Lab, http://www.luckylab.com/,
> for which you can find directions at
http://www.luckylab.com/lab_trans.html.
> They're at 915 SE Hawthorne Blvd, so they should be easy for most of us to
> get to.
>
> If you haven't heard of them, Michael Schwern, a 2002 nominee for the
> ActiveState Active Awards
> (http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Awards/ActiveAwards.html?_x=1) is
well
> known for his contributions to Perl's automated testing modules and
culture.
>
> At Perl Conference 5, Brian Ingerson, shared with Neil Watkiss an award
for
> Best Module.  This module, of course, was Inline, and is one of the
coolest
> toys you can lay your hands on, assuming that you happen to know another
> language that you can embed in Perl.
>
> Interesting coincidence:  my current pet project would have been much more
> difficult without the Test::More module that Michael Schwern wrote, and I
> need to convert parts of it to C using Inline::C, which Brian Ingerson
> wrote.
>
> If anyone else would like to come, feel free.  We'll be there around 6:00
> pm.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Curtis Poe
> Senior Programmer
> ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
> www.onsitetech.com
> 503-233-1418
>
> Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


From tex at off.org  Tue Jul 30 17:26:25 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
In-Reply-To: <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>; from cp@onsitetech.com on Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 02:51:51PM -0700
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <20020730152625.O8712@gblx.net>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 02:51:51PM -0700, Curtis Poe wrote:
> I have been informed that Personal TelCo is meeting at the Lucky Lab
> tomorrow.  I have no idea how many people they are or whether or not there
> will be space for us.  Since I haven't had many replies, it looks like this
> isn't a problem, but I wanted to give people a heads up.  Let me know if
> you're going to be there tomorrow and, if we have a large crowd, maybe we
> can rethink the location.
> 

	PTP is maybe 25-40 people. They'll probably occupy the back room. If
this is a social even that's probably not a big deal.

	Austin

From tex at off.org  Tue Jul 30 17:59:07 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
In-Reply-To: <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>; from cp@onsitetech.com on Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 02:51:51PM -0700
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <20020730155907.Q8712@gblx.net>

> > At Perl Conference 5, Brian Ingerson, shared with Neil Watkiss an award
> for
> > Best Module.  This module, of course, was Inline, and is one of the
> coolest
> > toys you can lay your hands on, assuming that you happen to know another
> > language that you can embed in Perl.


	Had never heard of it before today. What an incredible tool! Works
like XS without the bed of nails.

	Austin

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 30 18:03:12 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020730155907.Q8712@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <00bc01c2381d$483a42e0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Schutz" <tex@off.org>
> Had never heard of [Inline] before today. What an incredible tool! Works
> like XS without the bed of nails.
>
> Austin

No kidding.  It's pretty awesome.  I've only played with it once
(http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=135353), but it was a heck of a
lot of fun.

Incidentally, it sounds like there's no problem with the Lucky Lab tomorrow,
so I'll see all y'all there.  (yee haw)d

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!


From cfrjlr at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 30 19:45:08 2002
From: cfrjlr at yahoo.com (charles radley)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:34:11 2004
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Michael Schwern and Brian Ingerson
References: <3D4033FC.DE5EAF74@lclark.edu> <20020725190203.GH13315@eli.net> <016a01c23420$e9d3e0d0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020725220149.GO13315@eli.net> <018e01c23428$f3793ba0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <001701c237e4$75f66b70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <009401c23813$5095bdc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <20020730155907.Q8712@gblx.net> <00bc01c2381d$483a42e0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <3D473314.D9E4C497@yahoo.com>


Where / when is Lucky Lab ?


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From cfrjlr at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  1 18:38:25 2002
From: cfrjlr at yahoo.com (charles radley)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:37 2004
Subject: Seeking experienced web site developer - part-time contract
References: <6E9F28B7-8B99-11D6-A8DF-000A2792192A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3D20E7F1.FC60E77D@yahoo.com>


I am a member of a non-profit who is looking for an experienced web site
developer for a part-time contract, up to 20 hours/month initially.    Proven
(verifiable) experience required.

Naturally I thought of you guys first.....

Contact me if interested.

Charles F. Radley




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From al at shadowed.net  Tue Jul  2 18:58:40 2002
From: al at shadowed.net (Allison Randal)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: a book I want
In-Reply-To: <000801c21f7f$84e3e270$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
References: <20020107152503.GB3673@shadowed.net> <000801c21f7f$84e3e270$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <20020702235840.GA24233@shadowed.net>

Wow, that message is 6 months old. I feel a bit like someone's been
reading through my high-school year-book. ;)

Ah, well, I guess it's a good opportunity for an update.

On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:13:25AM -0700, Curtis Poe wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allison Randal" <al@shadowed.net>
> To: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:25 AM
> Subject: a book I want
>
> I understand that Damian Conway has something "planned", but I don't
> know the details yet.

What he has planned at the moment is a published version of the
Apocalypses and Exegeses (and maybe the Synopses now). Of course,
they'll all have to be revised to fit with later changes. But, we made
good progress on that in the Perl 6 meetings in St. Louis before YAPC.

Do I still think we need another book? Hmmmm... I don't know. There may
be a niche for one. I'll reserve judgement until I see the drafts for
the revised Camel and Llama. :) 

> However, since the only guarantee about Perl 6 is that everything is
> in flux, I don't think there is any reasonable way such a thing could
> be constructed at this time. Can you imagine the wholesale revisions
> that would be necessary if, for some reason, they decided to change
> the concatenation operator again (what is this time, by the way?).

It's settled on a steady C<_>. You'd be surprised how much is steady
now.

> For that reason, I don't think one will be coming out any time within the
> next year. Of course, since you mentioned that "the book should be released
> a few months before the full production version of Perl 6", then I suspect
> we'll wait at least two years for the book :(

I agree, a book wouldn't be appropriate yet. What is appropriate is
training in a more flexible format. It's no good to just wait until Perl
6 is released and then learn it. I mean, you could, but you'll be way
behind the curve. More and more "Perl 6" features are being released in
Perl 5. And even more you can play with in the Perl6::... modules.

The current projections are to have a usable interpreter in 12-18
months. And looking at the progress they've made on Parrot, I wouldn't
be at all surprised if it happened.

Allison
TIMTOWTDI

From poec at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  2 19:01:44 2002
From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: a book I want
In-Reply-To: <20020702235840.GA24233@shadowed.net>
Message-ID: <20020703000144.26120.qmail@web9105.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Allison Randal <al@shadowed.net> wrote:
> Wow, that message is 6 months old. I feel a bit like someone's been
> reading through my high-school year-book. ;)
> 
> Ah, well, I guess it's a good opportunity for an update.

Whoops!  I guess I must have sorted on date and not been paying attention :)

Cheers,
Curtis


=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Wed Jul  3 15:51:14 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: meetings?
Message-ID: <25df1252f7.252f725df1@mysun.com>

What are the odds of a meeting happening between July 24th and August 13ish?

-Joshua Hoblitt

--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Wed Jul  3 16:15:51 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: meetings?
References: <25df1252f7.252f725df1@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c222d6$cfb0c750$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "josh hoblitt" <jhoblitt@mysun.com>
To: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:51 PM
Subject: meetings?


> What are the odds of a meeting happening between July 24th and August
13ish?
>
> -Joshua Hoblitt

Joshua,

You're the one who moved to Hawaii, aren't you?  My memory is a bit hazy, so
forgive me if I'm wrong :)  If so, I'm guessing that you're visiting
Portland in that time period.

We have no scheduled meetings at that time, but I'm sure that a few Mongers
might be up for an impromptu social night.  If you're interested, pick a
good night and maybe a few of us can get together.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!

TIMTOWTDI

From cb at onsitetech.com  Wed Jul  3 18:09:42 2002
From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian Brink)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Website update or lack thereof
Message-ID: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPIEEMGFAA.cb@onsitetech.com>

It seems pm.org was hacked http://www.pm.org/whynologin.html and will not
allow me to update the site (albeit I'm already late updating it). So I
thought I would resend the meeting info.

The July meeting is July 1oth chromatic will be giving a presentation titled
"Introduction to Testing with Test::More".

Test::More is available in the Test::Simple distribution available from
CPAN -
http://theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca/scripts/CPAN/authors/id/M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simp
le-0.45.tar.gz

chromatic is a frequent contributor to Perl and the Perl community.  He
joined the Perl QA group after being chastised for breaking bleadperl by not
testing a proposed patch. In the past year, he has added tests for many of
the core modules, and wrote the backend Test::Builder module.  Additionally,
he co-wrote "Running Weblogs with Slash" and may have another book about
software development and Perl up his sleeve.

Place: Onsite! Technology, Inc.
Address: 333 SE 3rd, Portland, OR
Date and Time: 2002-07-10 at 7:00 PM
URL: www.onsitetech.com

There will be a social meeting at Rose and Raindrop at 6:00 PM. The address
is 532 S.E. Grand and it's about 3 blocks from the Onsite! Technology
offices.





Christian Brink
CTO
ONSITE! Technology
www.onsitetech.com
503.233.1418
cb@onsitetech.com

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!




TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Wed Jul  3 18:14:31 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
Message-ID: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>

Here is some code.

my $functionToCall = "foo";

???????( )

sub foo(){
 
 print "FOO!\n";

}


How can I use the variable $functionToCall to replace ???????  with foo( ) ?

Jason White 
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From cp at onsitetech.com  Wed Jul  3 18:48:01 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
References: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <007c01c222ec$11d170c0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jason White
To: pdx-Pm-List@pm.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Variable variable name


Here is some code.

my $functionToCall = "foo";

???????( )

sub foo(){

 print "FOO!\n";

}


How can I use the variable $functionToCall to replace ???????  with foo( ) ?

---------------------
Jason,

You don't want to use variable variable names.  Here's a great explanation.

  http://perl.plover.com/varvarname.html
  http://perl.plover.com/varvarname2.html
  http://perl.plover.com/varvarname3.html

As for what you want to do, there are several solutions.  How about a
dispatch table?

  my %dispatch_to =
  (
      foo => \&foo,
      bar => \&bar,
      baz => \&baz
  );

  # later

  if ( exists $dispatch_to{ $some_func } )
  {
    $dispatch_to{ $some_func }->( @args );
  }

If you're not sure what the above does, read "perldoc perlreftut".

Hope this helps!

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!

TIMTOWTDI

From russj at dimstar.net  Wed Jul  3 19:06:03 2002
From: russj at dimstar.net (Russ Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: sub call not getting params??
Message-ID: <20020703170603.7e0e65ef.russj@dimstar.net>

I have this in a script I'm writing:

		foreach $tag ( @tags ) {
			if ( "$$tag" ) {
			$writer->startTag("$tag");
				$writer->characters("$$tag");
			$writer->endTag("$tag");
			}
		}

Which works fine. However, the part inside the if statement is repeated elsewhere, so I tried this:

		foreach $tag ( @tags ) {
			if ( "$$tag" ) {
			&writer( "$tag", "$$tag" );
			}
		}

sub writer {

	$writer->startTag("$_[0]");
		$writer->characters("$_[1]");
	$writer->endTag("$_[0]");

}

When I run this, I get value undefined in line ### where line ### is the line with $_[0] in it. So why are my parameters not making it to writer?

Thanks in advance!

-- 
"The power to untie is stronger than the power to tie."                         
                                                                                
Well, yeah, otherwise my shoes would tie themselves.                            
                                                                                
---                                                                             
                                                                                
Russ Johnson                                                                    
Stargate Online                                                                 
                                                                                
http://www.dimstar.net                                                          
telnet://telnet.dimstar.net                                                     
ICQ: 3739685:Airneil
TIMTOWTDI

From mark at drapple.com  Wed Jul  3 19:26:06 2002
From: mark at drapple.com (Mark Hartley)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
In-Reply-To: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>; from jasona@inetarena.com on Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:14:31PM -0700
References: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <20020703172606.A27948@drapple.com>

On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:14:31PM -0700, Jason White wrote:
> Here is some code.
> 
> my $functionToCall = "foo";
> 
> ???????( )
> 
> sub foo(){
>  
>  print "FOO!\n";
> 
> }
> 
> 
> How can I use the variable $functionToCall to replace ???????  with foo( ) ?
> 
> Jason White 


&$functionToCall();

(page 254 of Camel book - revision 2)   :-)



Mark.
TIMTOWTDI

From joe at joppegaard.com  Wed Jul  3 19:56:51 2002
From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
In-Reply-To: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207031752550.14678-100000@shell.phattydomain.com>

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Jason White wrote:

> How can I use the variable $functionToCall to replace ???????  with foo( ) ?
>

You can make the variable a reference to a subroutine, then just deref 
it as a sub to call it, like:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use strict;

my $functionToCall = \&foo;

$functionToCall->();

sub foo {
    print "FOO!\n";
}

--
-Joe Oppegaard
http://joppegaard.com

TIMTOWTDI

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Jul  3 20:13:04 2002
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
In-Reply-To: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>
References: <007301c222e7$63805620$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <200207031813.04104.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 03 July 2002 16:14, Jason White wrote:

> Here is some code.
>
> my $functionToCall = "foo";
>
> ???????( )
>
> sub foo(){
>
>  print "FOO!\n";
>
> }
>
>
> How can I use the variable $functionToCall to replace ???????  with foo( )

You could look in the symbol table for a glob of the appropriate name and 
check to see if there's something in the CODE slot, but I sometimes prefer 
can():

	my $sub = UNIVERSAL::can( __PACKAGE__, $functionToCall );
	$sub->() if $sub and defined &$sub;

-- c
TIMTOWTDI

From m_pm_pdx at wickline.org  Wed Jul  3 20:32:05 2002
From: m_pm_pdx at wickline.org (matthew wickline)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Variable variable name
Message-ID: <3D23A595.7438FE80@wickline.org>

Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> wrote:
> my $functionToCall = "foo";
> ???????( );
> sub foo( ){  print "FOO!\n";  };


I think you may want 

    use strict;
    my $todo = "foo";
    my %funcs = ( # hash of subroutine references
        'foo' => sub { print "FOO!"; },
        'bar' => sub { print "BAR!"; },
        'baz' => sub { print "BAZ!"; },
    );
    &{ $funcs{$todo} };   # or   $funcs{$todo}->();

or maybe you want

    use strict;
    my $todo = "foo";
    sub foo() { print "FOO!"; }
    sub bar() { print "BAR!"; }
    sub baz() { print "BAZ!"; }
    my %funcs = ( # hash of subroutine references
        'foo' => \&foo,
        'bar' => \&bar,
        'baz' => \&baz,
    );
    &{ $funcs{$todo} };   # or   $funcs{$todo}->();

do either of those seem like they'd work for you?


see also:

    http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/pod/func/sub.html
        The first example above uses the
            sub BLOCK
        form

    http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/lib/strict.html
        what you're trying to do in the original form is
        a violation of stricture (unless you want to do
        it in a particularly funky way) because that sort
        of practice is more likely to lead to accidental
        errors that are difficult to track down.

    http://perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/pod/perlreftut.html
    http://perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/pod/perlref.html
        the first is a quick tutorial on references but
        doesn't address subroutine references. Once you've
        got a handle on references to scalars, arrays and
        hashes, move onto the second one for more info on
        references. ... more links provided from those
        resources.

    

-matt
TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Wed Jul  3 21:36:39 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: sub call not getting params??
In-Reply-To: <20020703170603.7e0e65ef.russj@dimstar.net>
References: <20020703170603.7e0e65ef.russj@dimstar.net>
Message-ID: <g65zwjk20.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Johnson <russj@dimstar.net> writes:

Russ> When I run this, I get value undefined in line ### where line
Russ> ### is the line with $_[0] in it. So why are my parameters not
Russ> making it to writer?

Is $writer defined in sub writer?

t.
TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Wed Jul  3 21:41:35 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: sub call not getting params??
In-Reply-To: <20020703170603.7e0e65ef.russj@dimstar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207031914330.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Russ Johnson wrote:

> I have this in a script I'm writing:
>
> 		foreach $tag ( @tags ) {
> 			if ( "$$tag" ) {

Whenever I see unnecessary(?) quote marks like that, I always have to
wonder whether the author thought they were functional. And, if so, what
could their function possibly be?

You may be thinking that they're harmless, and functionally they
(probably) are. But, even if they have no other shortcomings, they're
extra typing for you, and anyone else who has to look at this code has to
spend extra time thinking about them.

> 			$writer->startTag("$tag");
> 				$writer->characters("$$tag");
> 			$writer->endTag("$tag");
> 			}
> 		}

What's up with this indentation? I know, it sounds like I'm complaining
about something that has nothing to do with functionality. But in general,
the regularity of a perl program's indentation is directly proportional to
the author's comprehension. So, indent properly, and you'll fool 'em all!

Ah, I see it now: You're indenting everything between startTag and endTag.
That's cool. It's just the curly braces that threw me off. Or, perhaps I
should say, the code in the curly braces isn't indented further than the
braces themselves.

And I see you using $$tag. That implies that $tag is a reference to a
scalar. Okay. But then what does "$tag" mean? I'm coming back to those
quote marks for good reason now: If $tag is a reference, then "$tag" is a
_string_ like "SCALAR(0x1234FEDC)". That's not (necessarily) useless, but
it sure makes me wonder what you're doing with it. (Or maybe $tag is an
object with overloaded stringification? If that's it, then the quote marks
are intentional and not useless.)

> Which works fine. However, the part inside the if statement is repeated
> elsewhere, so I tried this:
>
> 		foreach $tag ( @tags ) {
> 			if ( "$$tag" ) {
> 			&writer( "$tag", "$$tag" );
> 			}
> 		}

Hmmm... You're passing that stringified reference as the first parameter.
And I have to wonder whether you'll always be using
the-same-thing-dereferenced as the second argument. Shouldn't you simply
pass $tag, and let &writer() do the dereference as needed?

> sub writer {
>
> 	$writer->startTag("$_[0]");
> 		$writer->characters("$_[1]");
> 	$writer->endTag("$_[0]");
>
> }

What's $writer at this point in the program? Some object, it seems. And
from the terminology, you're probably using HTML::Parser or a similar
module. (Good for you, for not trying to parse HTML directly!) But if
$writer is a global (or a file-scoped my() variable), you should probably
say so in a comment at the start of that sub.

> When I run this, I get value undefined in line ### where line ### is the
> line with $_[0] in it. So why are my parameters not making it to writer?

Maybe it's $writer that's undefined. That's what I'd suspect. Did you
initialize it to your parser object (or whatever)? Is it still in scope at
the time of this sub's declaration? (You are using 'strict', aren't you?)
Double check that it's not undef by adding a line like this at the top of
the sub, just after your comment about the global-ish $writer:

    die "Oops: \$writer is undef" unless defined $writer;

Hope this helps!

--Tom Phoenix

TIMTOWTDI

From cfrjlr at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  8 08:18:37 2002
From: cfrjlr at yahoo.com (charles radley)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Website update or lack thereof
References: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPIEEMGFAA.cb@onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <3D29912D.83EFE353@yahoo.com>


Hmm, I just noticed that the PPM meeting conflicts with the PCUsers Group.

Portland PC Users Group: Erik Stromquist of Computer Technology Link talks about
computer displays and other products from 7 to 9:30 p.m. at Portland Community
College Workforce Training Center, Room 104, 1626 S.E. Water Ave. Free. For
details, visit www.ppcug.org.


Christian Brink wrote:

>
>
> The July meeting is July 1oth chromatic will be giving a presentation titled
> "Introduction to Testing with Test::More".
>
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From poec at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  8 09:49:02 2002
From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: Website update or lack thereof
Message-ID: <20020708144902.23913.qmail@web9107.mail.yahoo.com>

Humph.  As usual, I replied to the person and not to the list.

--- Ovid <poec@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- charles radley <cfrjlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Hmm, I just noticed that the PPM meeting conflicts with the PCUsers Group.
> > 
> > Portland PC Users Group: Erik Stromquist of Computer Technology Link talks about
> > computer displays and other products from 7 to 9:30 p.m. at Portland Community
> > College Workforce Training Center, Room 104, 1626 S.E. Water Ave. Free. For
> > details, visit www.ppcug.org.
> 
> Regrettably, the second Wednesday of every month is the only day that we could get the majority
> of
> people to agree on.  If enough people's situation changes in the future, though, I'm willing to
> reconsider this.
> 
> Cheers,
> Curtis


=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
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TIMTOWTDI

From poec at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  8 14:40:44 2002
From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
Message-ID: <20020708194044.70586.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I just received an interesting email from Sam's publishing, included at the bottom of the email.

Two word summary:  free books.
Six word question:  what do we do with 'em?

I'm sure that no one would object to our picking up free books, but I have to confess that Sam's
can be pretty spotty quality.  Some of their books are great, others leave a lot to be desired. 
However, rather than unilaterally making a decision on this, I thought I would pass the buck
(book?) to all of you to see if anyone has any creative ideas.  Random thoughts follow.

1.  Establishing a pdx.pm library would be nice, but who would be the librarian, and where would
the library be kept?
2.  If we don't establish a library (I don't see how it would be feasible), who gets the books?  I
could just write back to this person and get an armload of free books, but that doesn't seem very
fair.
3.  Is anyone willing to write reviews on the books to post on our Web site?
4.  [insert your own question here, even if you don't answer it]
5.  Legal question:  is this income?  Do we have to declare it or anything like that?

Cheers,
Curtis "Ovid" Poe

> Hello Curtis,
> 
> We are writing to offer your Perl User Group an opportunity to receive an
> introduction to Sams' Developer's Library Series ands other Open Source
> related books.  I would like to send you a selection of our best-selling
> books along with some Sams' promotional materials.
> 
> As dedicated Perl users, your feedback is very important to Sams.  I hope
> when you receive your kit you will take the time to review the books, and
> post those reviews on your Web site and/or email them back to us.  Also,
> feel free to use the books and other goodies as contest or door prizes at
> your meetings.
> 
> If you are interested in receiving this box of goodies from Sams, please
> reply and answer the six quick questions following my signature.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt Klocek and Amy Sorokas, Sams Publishing
> 
> 6 Quick Questions:
> 
> 1.	Please provide the correct shipping address and phone number.
> 2.	How many members are in your group?
> 3.	How often do you meet?  Do you have a set meeting schedule? Would
> you be interested in an editor or author presenting to your group?
> 4.	Does your group regularly review new books?
> 5.	Does your group have a web site? If so, what is the web site
> address?
> 6.	Do you have another email address that you would prefer that we send
> upcoming promotions?


=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Mon Jul  8 15:12:27 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
References: <20020708194044.70586.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c226bb$c825b750$5b86fc83@archer>

Ask Sam's if we can get the "online Version"of their developer series.
:-)

Jason White

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ovid" <poec@yahoo.com>
To: <pdx-Pm-List@pm.org>
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:40 PM
Subject: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group


> Hi all,
>
> I just received an interesting email from Sam's publishing, included at
the bottom of the email.
>
> Two word summary:  free books.
> Six word question:  what do we do with 'em?
>
> I'm sure that no one would object to our picking up free books, but I have
to confess that Sam's
> can be pretty spotty quality.  Some of their books are great, others leave
a lot to be desired.
> However, rather than unilaterally making a decision on this, I thought I
would pass the buck
> (book?) to all of you to see if anyone has any creative ideas.  Random
thoughts follow.
>
> 1.  Establishing a pdx.pm library would be nice, but who would be the
librarian, and where would
> the library be kept?
> 2.  If we don't establish a library (I don't see how it would be
feasible), who gets the books?  I
> could just write back to this person and get an armload of free books, but
that doesn't seem very
> fair.
> 3.  Is anyone willing to write reviews on the books to post on our Web
site?
> 4.  [insert your own question here, even if you don't answer it]
> 5.  Legal question:  is this income?  Do we have to declare it or anything
like that?
>
> Cheers,
> Curtis "Ovid" Poe
>
> > Hello Curtis,
> >
> > We are writing to offer your Perl User Group an opportunity to receive
an
> > introduction to Sams' Developer's Library Series ands other Open Source
> > related books.  I would like to send you a selection of our best-selling
> > books along with some Sams' promotional materials.
> >
> > As dedicated Perl users, your feedback is very important to Sams.  I
hope
> > when you receive your kit you will take the time to review the books,
and
> > post those reviews on your Web site and/or email them back to us.  Also,
> > feel free to use the books and other goodies as contest or door prizes
at
> > your meetings.
> >
> > If you are interested in receiving this box of goodies from Sams, please
> > reply and answer the six quick questions following my signature.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Matt Klocek and Amy Sorokas, Sams Publishing
> >
> > 6 Quick Questions:
> >
> > 1. Please provide the correct shipping address and phone number.
> > 2. How many members are in your group?
> > 3. How often do you meet?  Do you have a set meeting schedule? Would
> > you be interested in an editor or author presenting to your group?
> > 4. Does your group regularly review new books?
> > 5. Does your group have a web site? If so, what is the web site
> > address?
> > 6. Do you have another email address that you would prefer that we send
> > upcoming promotions?
>
>
> =====
> "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
> Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
> push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
> shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
> TIMTOWTDI
>

TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Mon Jul  8 15:39:55 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
In-Reply-To: <20020708194044.70586.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207081300330.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ovid wrote:

> 2.  If we don't establish a library (I don't see how it would be
> feasible), who gets the books?

We could raffle them off or whatever, then use the resulting funds to pay
for refreshments^Wmeeting supplies.

> 5.  Legal question:  is this income?  Do we have to declare it or
> anything like that?

Well, you said they were from SAMS... So let's just say that they're
worthless. :-)

To me, it seems no different than other in-kind donations that the group
has (tacitly) accepted: the meeting space and refreshments from onsite,
the waived presentation fees, web hosting and web page maintenance, and
anything else I can't think of right now. If you're worried, we could draw
up a charter as a non-profit. (pm.org should give user groups a sample
charter; maybe we should suggest that to them.)

It sure sounds as if SAMS is fishing for reviews. Not that there's
anything wrong with that. But if (_if_) somebody wants to review these and
post the review on the website, then (A) the reviewer should get to keep
the reviewed book and (B) we should get at least one other publisher to
contribute books. I'm pretty sure that we could get at least two
publishers from the set { O'Reilly, Manning, Addison Wesley } to match the
contribution. But it sounds like more trouble than it's worth, unless
somebody out there really wants some free books.

--Tom

TIMTOWTDI

From joe at joppegaard.com  Mon Jul  8 17:09:07 2002
From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
In-Reply-To: <20020708194044.70586.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207081501070.16663-100000@shell.phattydomain.com>

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ovid wrote:

> 1.  Establishing a pdx.pm library would be nice, but who would be the librarian, and where would
> the library be kept?

Every month someone could volunteer to hold on to the books until the
next meeting, and if anyone wanted to use one, whoever was the
"librarian" that month could setup a place to meet and exchange books.

> 2.  If we don't establish a library (I don't see how it would be feasible), who gets the books?  I
> could just write back to this person and get an armload of free books, but that doesn't seem very
> fair.

I think the solution above would take care of this. Although, maybe it
should be someone who has been around the meeting at least a few times.
They also should probably leave some type of contact information
(besides email) where someone could get a hold of them to pick up the
books if they couldn't make it to the next meeting or whatever.

> 3.  Is anyone willing to write reviews on the books to post on our Web site?

Hard to say, maybe if we saw the titles. I for one would be willing to write 
reviews for a free book or two. ;)

> 4.  [insert your own question here, even if you don't answer it]
4. Would people be willing to volunteer to hold on to the books and be
responsible for getting them to people who want them?

I would expect the common way to deal with that would be for whomever
wants the book to make it as easy as possible for the librarian.

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Tom Phoenix wrote:
> But if (_if_) somebody wants to review these and
> post the review on the website, then (A) the reviewer should get to keep
> the reviewed book and (B) we should get at least one other publisher to
> contribute books. I'm pretty sure that we could get at least two
> publishers from the set { O'Reilly, Manning, Addison Wesley } to match the
> contribution.

If that happened, it sounds like this could be a pretty worth while endevor.

> But it sounds like more trouble than it's worth, unless
> somebody out there really wants some free books.

Although, this could turn out to be true also.

--
-Joe Oppegaard
http://joppegaard.com


TIMTOWTDI

From lancem at colubs.com  Mon Jul  8 17:42:45 2002
From: lancem at colubs.com (Lance Mazon)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207081501070.16663-100000@shell.phattydomain.com>
Message-ID: <DPEFIMAHLMIPGMJGNLNGKEKNDCAA.lancem@colubs.com>

  I'm a lurker who has yet to attend a meeting, but even so, perhaps a
previous experience of mine could help out...  A user group I was a member
of had both a software and a book library.  One person was designated as the
Librarian.  Basically, this person was responsible for maintaining the
libraries.  The software library was brought to each monthly meeting, along
with a catalog of all books available.  If somebody wanted a book from the
library, they informed the librarian which book they wanted, and the book
was either brought to the next meeting, or the user could travel to the
librarian's house if the need was urgent.
  This worked out well because the software was easily loaded into a small
vehicle in less then a couple minutes, and the librarian wasn't constantly
lugging the books around.  They kept them in a nice secure place, and
everybody was happy.
  Now the other side of the story: Nobody ever checked out books.
Occasionally somebody would browse the list and request a book be brought to
the next meeting, but, chances are the librarian would forget(which annoyed
the user), or the user wouldn't need the book anymore(which annoyed the
librarian).
  I guess what I'm trying to say is that the idea of an online version of
the books being maintained is probably much more feasible.  Hardcopy books
are great, but usually are needed "now", and the typical user will either go
buy the needed book, or borrow it from a friend or local library rather than
wait for the next meeting to come around.

Lance Mazon
lancem@colubs.com
Senior Programmer - R&D
Columbia Ultimate, Inc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pdx-pm-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-pdx-pm-list@pm.org]On
> Behalf Of Joe Oppegaard
> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: Ovid
> Cc: pdx-Pm-List@pm.org
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
>
>
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ovid wrote:
>
> > 1.  Establishing a pdx.pm library would be nice, but who would
> be the librarian, and where would
> > the library be kept?
>
> Every month someone could volunteer to hold on to the books until the
> next meeting, and if anyone wanted to use one, whoever was the
> "librarian" that month could setup a place to meet and exchange books.
>
> > 2.  If we don't establish a library (I don't see how it would
> be feasible), who gets the books?  I
> > could just write back to this person and get an armload of free
> books, but that doesn't seem very
> > fair.
>
> I think the solution above would take care of this. Although, maybe it
> should be someone who has been around the meeting at least a few times.
> They also should probably leave some type of contact information
> (besides email) where someone could get a hold of them to pick up the
> books if they couldn't make it to the next meeting or whatever.
>
> > 3.  Is anyone willing to write reviews on the books to post on
> our Web site?
>
> Hard to say, maybe if we saw the titles. I for one would be
> willing to write
> reviews for a free book or two. ;)
>
> > 4.  [insert your own question here, even if you don't answer it]
> 4. Would people be willing to volunteer to hold on to the books and be
> responsible for getting them to people who want them?
>
> I would expect the common way to deal with that would be for whomever
> wants the book to make it as easy as possible for the librarian.
>
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Tom Phoenix wrote:
> > But if (_if_) somebody wants to review these and
> > post the review on the website, then (A) the reviewer should get to keep
> > the reviewed book and (B) we should get at least one other publisher to
> > contribute books. I'm pretty sure that we could get at least two
> > publishers from the set { O'Reilly, Manning, Addison Wesley }
> to match the
> > contribution.
>
> If that happened, it sounds like this could be a pretty worth
> while endevor.
>
> > But it sounds like more trouble than it's worth, unless
> > somebody out there really wants some free books.
>
> Although, this could turn out to be true also.
>
> --
> -Joe Oppegaard
> http://joppegaard.com
>
>
> TIMTOWTDI

TIMTOWTDI

From gcheong at acm.org  Mon Jul  8 19:00:45 2002
From: gcheong at acm.org (Greg Cheong)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Free Books from Sams Publishing for your User Group
References: <20020708194044.70586.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c226db$af3b7d40$6501a8c0@isolde>

I think the overhead of maintaining the library (finding a physical
location, having the books available, passing the books on to another
librarian) would be too much compared to the benefits of getting free books
from SAMS, or any publisher really. I would suggest the following process:
1. The list of books available for review are posted to the group.
2. Those who really want a particular book can request to review it. First
come first serve basis.
3. The left-overs are raffled off one by one at each subsequent meeting.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,
Greg


TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul  9 15:26:26 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fw: Mailing list
Message-ID: <00af01c22786$e68545f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

Just to underscore the point of this email that I sent this morning but it
appears no one received...

Note:  this is not the first time that I have sent an email to the list that
never arrived.  Has anyone else experienced similar problems?  If not, I'll
see if I can discover anything on my end.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Poe" <cp@onsitetech.com>
To: <pdx-Pm-List@pm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: Mailing list


> Here's the scoop:  when the person who was previously running pdx.pm left,
> he did not provide any passwords to the pm.org server or to the majordomo
> mailing list.  I have the pm.org issue cleared up (otherwise, there
wouldn't
> be a Web site), but I have never had admin access to majordomo.
>
> Frankly, I'm not sure that I need the access, but I've had some email from
> people wanting to remove me from the list.  In fact, I received an email
> from someone who refused to answer whether or not they had followed my
> directions, but instead kept insisting that things are "broken" if I can't
> just unsubscribe them.
>
> Here's the exchange:
>
>   --- Ovid ---
>   When you say "actually functions correctly", does that
>   mean that the majordomo unsubscribe information that I
>   gave in the last email doesn't work?  If that's the case,
>   I'd like to know rather than spread bad information.
>
>   --- the response ---
>   Bascially [sic] if you cannot get in - passwordwise - to
>   correct an error or tweak something, it is not functioning
>   correctly.
>
> I actually gave this person unsubscribe details twice, but at no time was
I
> informed as to whether or not they followed the instructions (and yes, I
> know that "they" is considered grammatically incorrect :)
>
> Rather than run the risk of alienating further users, I am proposing
> creating a new list and, when this is working well, taking down the old
one.
> I'd handle subscribing everyone to the new list, so no action would be
> required on your part other than confirming the subscription.
>
> Benefits:
>
> 1.  I'll actually be administering the list and not just a participant.
> 2.  Bad addresses will be automatically culled from the list (maybe not
that
> big of a deal?).
> 3.  I may even be able to set up a list archive.
>
> Does this sound worthwhile?  Some adhere to the notion "if it ain't broke,
> don't fix it".  Of course, this is all mute if someone knows how to
contact
> Paul (masque) and get the passwords for me...
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Curtis Poe
> Senior Programmer
> ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
> www.onsitetech.com
> 503-233-1418
>
> Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
>

TIMTOWTDI

From akilbey at ci.portland.or.us  Tue Jul  9 16:07:01 2002
From: akilbey at ci.portland.or.us (Kilbey, Aaron)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Lynx???
Message-ID: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E109B90B7E@city04.bit.city>

Aloha everybody - 
I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML file to
a local server. 
Here's the code:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Newsdump.pl
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
#!/usr/bin/perl

system("lynx -dump http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml >
news.xml"); 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

1. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" I get a zero length news.xml

2. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl > news.xml" I get a news.xml that is a
numbered list of the news links which is not XML. 

3. When I run http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml in a web
browser, I get the XML document.

I need to have the ability to call this script to automatically retrieve and
save the new file. Please help.


-Aaron Kilbey

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul  9 16:08:56 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fw: Mailing list
In-Reply-To: <00af01c22786$e68545f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
References: <00af01c22786$e68545f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <86d6twmwwn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Curtis" == Curtis Poe <cp@onsitetech.com> writes:

>> Here's the scoop:  when the person who was previously running pdx.pm left,
>> he did not provide any passwords to the pm.org server or to the majordomo
>> mailing list.  I have the pm.org issue cleared up (otherwise, there
Curtis> wouldn't
>> be a Web site), but I have never had admin access to majordomo.

There are people a short email distance away that have access
to the majordomo.  There's no need to set up a new list.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From cb at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul  9 16:09:48 2002
From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian Brink)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: REPEAT: Website update or lack thereof
Message-ID: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPMELBGFAA.cb@onsitetech.com>

Since the website is still not available I thought I would send a reminder
about the July Meeting:


It seems pm.org was hacked http://www.pm.org/whynologin.html and will not
allow me to update the site (albeit I'm already late updating it). So I
thought I would resend the meeting info.

The July meeting is July 10th chromatic will be giving a presentation titled
"Introduction to Testing with Test::More".

Test::More is available in the Test::Simple distribution available from
CPAN -
http://theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca/scripts/CPAN/authors/id/M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simp
le-0.45.tar.gz

chromatic is a frequent contributor to Perl and the Perl community.  He
joined the Perl QA group after being chastised for breaking bleadperl by not
testing a proposed patch. In the past year, he has added tests for many of
the core modules, and wrote the backend Test::Builder module.  Additionally,
he co-wrote "Running Weblogs with Slash" and may have another book about
software development and Perl up his sleeve.

Place: Onsite! Technology, Inc.
Address: 333 SE 3rd, Portland, OR
Date and Time: 2002-07-10 at 7:00 PM
URL: www.onsitetech.com

There will be a social meeting at Rose and Raindrop at 6:00 PM. The address
is 532 S.E. Grand and it's about 3 blocks from the Onsite! Technology
offices.

Christian Brink
CTO
ONSITE! Technology
www.onsitetech.com
503.233.1418
cb@onsitetech.com

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!




TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul  9 16:19:17 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fw: Mailing list
References: <00af01c22786$e68545f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> <86d6twmwwn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <00e001c2278e$48839f20$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> "Curtis" == Curtis Poe <cp@onsitetech.com> writes:
>
> >> Here's the scoop:  when the person who was previously running pdx.pm
left,
> >> he did not provide any passwords to the pm.org server or to the
majordomo
> >> mailing list.  I have the pm.org issue cleared up (otherwise, there
> Curtis> wouldn't
> >> be a Web site), but I have never had admin access to majordomo.
>
> There are people a short email distance away that have access
> to the majordomo.  There's no need to set up a new list.

I suspected that, but the email I received when I started pdx.pm back up
implied (to me, at least) that I needed to start the list over if I needed
administrative control.  I guess I should have read more closely.

I'll check that out.

Cheers,
Curtis

TIMTOWTDI

From aaronkilbey at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  9 16:29:56 2002
From: aaronkilbey at hotmail.com (Aaron Kilbey)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: FW: Lynx???
Message-ID: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>

Aloha everybody - 

I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML file
to a local server. 
Here's the code:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
newsdump.pl
------------------------------------------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

system("lynx -dump http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml
> news.xml"); 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" I get a zero length news.xml

2. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl > news.xml" I get a news.xml that
is a numbered list of the news links which is not XML. 

3. When I run http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml in a
web browser, I get the XML document.

I need to have the ability to call this script to automatically retrieve
and save the new file. Please help.


-Aaron Kilbey

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul  9 16:29:54 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: REPEAT: Website update or lack thereof
In-Reply-To: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPMELBGFAA.cb@onsitetech.com>
References: <OKEEKGABPKHHEONMOAEPMELBGFAA.cb@onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <868z4kmvxp.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Christian" == Christian Brink <cb@onsitetech.com> writes:

Christian> Place: Onsite! Technology, Inc.
Christian> Address: 333 SE 3rd, Portland, OR
Christian> Date and Time: 2002-07-10 at 7:00 PM
Christian> URL: www.onsitetech.com

I'll be bringing my AirPort again for anyone who wants to be rude
and read their email or play nethack during the presentation.

:-)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Tue Jul  9 16:32:21 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E109B90B7E@city04.bit.city>; from akilbey@ci.portland.or.us on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:07:01PM -0700
References: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E109B90B7E@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <20020709143221.A29857@gblx.net>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:07:01PM -0700, Kilbey, Aaron wrote:
> Aloha everybody - 
> I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML file to
> a local server. 
> Here's the code:
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> Newsdump.pl
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
> system("lynx -dump http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml >
> news.xml"); 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> 
> 1. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" I get a zero length news.xml

	Try running it in a shell. You'll see it try run lynx in the
background. This is probably not the desired behavior.
	Try:

system(
  "lynx -dump  " .
  "'http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml'" .
  " > news.xml"
);

	where the ampersand is quoted. See perldoc -f system, and note the
bits about sh -c.

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From poec at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  9 16:37:37 2002
From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: FW: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <20020709213737.27442.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Aaron Kilbey <aaronkilbey@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Aloha everybody - 
> 
> I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML file
> to a local server. 
> Here's the code:
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> newsdump.pl
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
> system("lynx -dump http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml
> > news.xml"); 

A more portable solution:

  use LWP::Simple;
  getstore( $url, $file );

Or better:

  mirror( $url, $file );

You can verify this from the command line:

  perl -MLWP::Simple -e 'getprint("http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml")'

You'll also want to check the is_success() function in that module.

Cheers,
Curtis "Ovid" Poe

=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Tue Jul  9 16:37:33 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: FW: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>
References: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <20020709213733.GH10607@eli.net>

If that's all you're doing, a shell script will suffice:

	#!/bin/sh

	lynx -dump "http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml" > news.xml

If you intend on doing something else with the data, perl is keen. Here's
a one-liner to do the same thing, kinda. This one accepts the url as an
argument and lets you redirect the output to a file of your choosing.

	perl -MLWP::Simple -e "getprint(shift)" \
	  "http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml" \
	  > news.xml

(n.b. the URL has an '&' in it and needed to be quoted)

-Joshua

On (Tue, Jul 09 14:29), Aaron Kilbey wrote:
> Aloha everybody - 
> 
> I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML file
> to a local server. 
> Here's the code:
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> newsdump.pl
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
> system("lynx -dump http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml
> > news.xml"); 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 1. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" I get a zero length news.xml
> 
> 2. When I do: "bash$ perl newsdump.pl > news.xml" I get a news.xml that
> is a numbered list of the news links which is not XML. 
> 
> 3. When I run http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml in a
> web browser, I get the XML document.
> 
> I need to have the ability to call this script to automatically retrieve
> and save the new file. Please help.
> 
> 
> -Aaron Kilbey
> 
> TIMTOWTDI
TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Tue Jul  9 17:10:24 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: FW: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>
References: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949AF@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <g1yacpn73.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Kilbey <aaronkilbey@hotmail.com> writes:

Aaron> I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an
Aaron> XML file to a local server. Here's the code:

um... why not just use LWP [http://www.linpro.no/lwp/] ?  either
LWP::Simple::getstore, or the command-line program of the same name:

| $ perl -MLWP::Simple=getstore \
|        -lwe 'getstore "http://www.perl.com/", "perl-com.html"'
| $ ls -al perl-com.html
| -rw-rw-r--    1 tkil     tkil        39697 Jul  9 16:06 perl-com.html

f you're just going to read it in, you can also fetch directly to
memory with "get", from the same package:

| $ perl -MLWP::Simple=get \
|        -lwe 'my $s = get "http://www.perl.com/"; print length $s'
| 39697

if you really must use an external program, consider "wget":

| $ wget -O perl-com-2.html http://www.perl.com/
| --16:08:06--  http://www.perl.com/
|            => `perl-com-2.html'
| Connecting to www.perl.com:80... connected!
| HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
| Length: unspecified [text/html]
| 
|     0K .......... .......... .......... ........              @  52.46 KB/s
| 
| 16:08:07 (52.39 KB/s) - `perl-com-2.html' saved [39697]
| 
| $ ls -al perl-com-2.html
| -rw-rw-r--    1 tkil     tkil        39697 Jul  9 16:08 perl-com-2.html

t.
TIMTOWTDI

From ckuskie at dalsemi.com  Tue Jul  9 17:29:21 2002
From: ckuskie at dalsemi.com (Colin Kuskie)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Problems parsing with Parse::RecDescent
Message-ID: <20020709152921.A24733@dalsemi.com>

I'm having problems trying to grok Parse::RecDescent.  As part of a
much larger grammar, I'm trying to parse lines that look like these:

Xname node1 node2 node3 model
Xname node1 node2 node3 model parName=parValue parName=parValue

with this set of rules:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;
use lib '~/perl/modules';
use Parse::RecDescent;
use Data::Dumper;

my ($dump,$tree) = (0,0);

$Data::Dumper::Purity = 1;

$RD_HINT = 1;

my $grammar = <<'EOGRAMMAR';

#rules

netlist : element(s)

element : comment_line
        | subckt

comment_line : '*' comment

{ bless { comment => $item{comment} }, $item[0] }

subckt : <skip: qr/[ \t]*/> /x/i name node(s) /.*/ "\n"

{
  bless { name   => $item{name},
	  nodes  => $item{node} }, $item[0]
}

node : /\w+/
{ $item[1] }

name : /\w+/
{ $item[1] }

comment : /.*/
{ $item[1] }

EOGRAMMAR

#----------------------------------------------------------------

my $parse = Parse::RecDescent->new($grammar)
  or die "bad grammar";

undef $/;
my $text = <<EOT;
* # FILE NAME: /DESIGN/NWDC/NEWDESIGN/DSB17/SIM/HSPICE/CKUSKIE/
* translinear1/hspiceS/schematic/netlist/translinear1.c.raw
* Netlist output for hspiceS.
* Generated on Jul 5 14:17:15 2002
* File name: DSB17_translinear1_schematic.S.
* Subcircuit for cell: translinear1.
* Generated for: hspiceS.
* Generated on Jul  5 14:17:15 2002.
XP2 VDD VOUT PBBAS IOUT PCH4_D6W_1  
XP2a VDD VOUT PBBAS IOUT PCH4_D6W_1  M=1.0
XP1 VDD IOUT N2 VDD PCH4_D6W_1  M=1.0
XP0 VDD N2 N2 VDD PCH4_D6W_1  M=1.0
XQ4 IINP N2 IT2 AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1  M=5.0
XQ3 IREF IOUT IT2 AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1  M=5.0
XQ2 IT1 IT1 IREF AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1  M=5.0
XQ1 IT1 IT1 IINP AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1  M=5.0
EOT

my $net = $parse->netlist($text)
  or die "bad netlist";

print Dumper($net);

--------------------------------------------------------------

The output is generates says it parses all the "comment" lines, but
fails to parse any of the "subckt" lines:

$VAR1 = [
          bless( {
                   'comment' => '# FILE NAME: /DESIGN/NWDC/NEWDESIGN/DSB17/SIM/HSPICE/CKUSKIE/'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'translinear1/hspiceS/schematic/netlist/translinear1.c.raw'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'Netlist output for hspiceS.'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'Generated on Jul 5 14:17:15 2002'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'File name: DSB17_translinear1_schematic.S.'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'Subcircuit for cell: translinear1.'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'Generated for: hspiceS.'
                 }, 'comment_line' ),
          bless( {
                   'comment' => 'Generated on Jul  5 14:17:15 2002.'
                 }, 'comment_line' )
        ];


Does anybody have any ideas about a better grammar to use?

Colin
TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul  9 17:38:06 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: FW: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <20020709213737.27442.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020709213737.27442.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <864rf8mss1.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Ovid" == Ovid  <poec@yahoo.com> writes:

Ovid> A more portable solution:

Ovid>   use LWP::Simple;
Ovid>   getstore( $url, $file );

Ovid> Or better:

Ovid>   mirror( $url, $file );

Or better:

        lwp-download http://what.ever/that/file/is.xml

That's installed when you install LWP.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul  9 17:42:38 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Problems parsing with Parse::RecDescent
In-Reply-To: <20020709152921.A24733@dalsemi.com>
References: <20020709152921.A24733@dalsemi.com>
Message-ID: <86y9ckle01.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Colin" == Colin Kuskie <ckuskie@dalsemi.com> writes:

Colin> I'm having problems trying to grok Parse::RecDescent.

I didn't see anything immediately obvious in your grammar,
but I'd try turning on tracing, and also posting to the P::RD
mailing list (see lists.perl.org).

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From ckuskie at dalsemi.com  Tue Jul  9 18:35:34 2002
From: ckuskie at dalsemi.com (Colin Kuskie)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Problems parsing with Parse::RecDescent
In-Reply-To: <86y9ckle01.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>; from merlyn@stonehenge.com on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:42:38PM -0700
References: <20020709152921.A24733@dalsemi.com> <86y9ckle01.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <20020709163534.E24733@dalsemi.com>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:42:38PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Colin" == Colin Kuskie <ckuskie@dalsemi.com> writes:
> 
> Colin> I'm having problems trying to grok Parse::RecDescent.
> 
> I didn't see anything immediately obvious in your grammar,
> but I'd try turning on tracing, and also posting to the P::RD
> mailing list (see lists.perl.org).

$RD_TRACE redefines verbosity, and it also shows the problem.  I
kept playing with the grammar while waiting for the perl.org
autoresponder.

Here's the gist of it:

<skip: ...> tells the parser what characters to skip _before_ tokens,
not after them.

Just before the subckt subrule is tried, here's what in the "stack":

"\nXP2 VDD VOUT PBBAS IOUT
PCH4_D6W_1 \nXP2a VDD VOUT
PBBAS IOUT PCH4_D6W_1
M=1.0\nXP1 VDD IOUT N2 VDD
PCH4_D6W_1 M=1.0\nXP0 VDD N2
N2 VDD PCH4_D6W_1 M=1.0\nXQ4
IINP N2 IT2 AGND
NPN8P0_D6W_G1 M=5.0\nXQ3 IREF
IOUT IT2 AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1
M=5.0\nXQ2 IT1 IT1 IREF AGND
NPN8P0_D6W_G1 M=5.0\nXQ1 IT1
IT1 IINP AGND NPN8P0_D6W_G1
M=5.0\n"

Note that leading "\n", which is the newline left over from the last
comment line.  The skip in the subckt production says to make "\n"
significant, and since it doesn't match /x/i, the subckt subrule
fails.

Now I just need to keep chopping away.  Even though I took Damian's
class last August when he has at OGI, I'm finding that it taught me how
to tweak the knobs and that I still don't understand how the beast in
the box works.  In other words, I don't know how to tell the parser
how to do it's job right :)

Colin
TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Wed Jul 10 07:40:19 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Fw: Mailing list
In-Reply-To: <00af01c22786$e68545f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207100529220.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Curtis Poe wrote:

> Note:  this is not the first time that I have sent an email to the list that
> never arrived.  Has anyone else experienced similar problems?

Sometimes Majordomo, rather than forwarding something directly out to the
list, sends it to the list owner for manual approval. (Of course, that
means that they're lost forever, for this list. :-)

I don't remember all of the special bounces, but one of the rules tries to
keep uns*bscribe requests from going out to the list. If the first few
lines of your message have that offensive word, as your original did, it's
time for the list owner to step in, 'cause Majordomo thinks you might be
saying "Please uns*bscribe me from this list!"

Just one of the joys that is Majordomo...!

--Tom

TIMTOWTDI

From aaronkilbey at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 10 12:00:14 2002
From: aaronkilbey at hotmail.com (Aaron Kilbey)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Lynx???
Message-ID: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949B6@city04.bit.city>

So I used the following from yesterday:

---------------------------------------
newsdump.pl
---------------------------------------
$url="http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239\&o=xml";
$file="news.xml";

use LWP::Simple;
&getstore( $url, $file );
---------------------------------------

...and when I run "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" it writes news.xml fine, but
when I try to do http://myserver/cgi-bin/newsdump.pl in a web browser,
news.xml
is not updated ??? - a.




-----Original Message-----
From: Ovid [mailto:poec@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:38 PM
To: Aaron Kilbey; pdx-pm-list@pm.org
Subject: Re: FW: Lynx???

--- Aaron Kilbey <aaronkilbey@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Aloha everybody - 
> 
> I'm attempting to issue an http request through lynx to save an XML
file
> to a local server. 
> Here's the code:
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> newsdump.pl
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
> system("lynx -dump
http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml
> > news.xml"); 

A more portable solution:

  use LWP::Simple;
  getstore( $url, $file );

Or better:

  mirror( $url, $file );

You can verify this from the command line:

  perl -MLWP::Simple -e
'getprint("http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239&o=xml")'

You'll also want to check the is_success() function in that module.

Cheers,
Curtis "Ovid" Poe

=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
TIMTOWTDI
TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Wed Jul 10 12:16:21 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Lynx???
In-Reply-To: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949B6@city04.bit.city>
References: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949B6@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <20020710171621.GN10607@eli.net>

Look in your web server's error log. Lots of well, errors and stuff
end up there. :-)

Are you sure that the webserver has enough access (read: permissions)
to change news.xml? Chances are: the webserver is run as "nobody"
and you last touched the file as "akilbey" or something.

Do you realize that your script won't display a success or failure
webpage? You'll need to dynamically write a webpage in this program
for that sort of behaviour. See these CGI tutorials for info. Ooh,
and lookee! Ovid has a tutorial of his own up there in neon lights
and all! http://www.cgi-resources.com/Documentation/CGI_Tutorials/

-Joshua


On (Wed, Jul 10 10:00), Aaron Kilbey wrote:
> So I used the following from yesterday:
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> newsdump.pl
> ---------------------------------------
> $url="http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?feed=239\&o=xml";
> $file="news.xml";
> 
> use LWP::Simple;
> &getstore( $url, $file );
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> ...and when I run "bash$ perl newsdump.pl" it writes news.xml fine, but
> when I try to do http://myserver/cgi-bin/newsdump.pl in a web browser,
> news.xml
> is not updated ??? - a.
TIMTOWTDI

From karic at lclark.edu  Wed Jul 10 12:19:11 2002
From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: private usenet servers
References: <8B10C83D6E9FD211B1670090272A69E10A8949B6@city04.bit.city>
Message-ID: <3D2C6C8F.F760323F@lclark.edu>


Hey--

A colleague of mine is looking for a "linux pro" to set up a private
usenet server, with global access via passwords.  In other words, he
wants to host his own private newsgroups, but provide access via
password.

If you, or anyone you know, has done such a thing, please contact me
off-list and we'll see if we can't get you some work.

-kari.
TIMTOWTDI

From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Jul 10 23:56:25 2002
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Introduction to Testing with Test::More
Message-ID: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org>

Hi everyone,

I've put the slides from tonight's presentation on my website.  You're welcome 
to download them.  (I did correct the one error I noticed in the slides, but 
not the potential error in Test::More.)

	http://wgz.org/chromatic/perl/IntroTestMore.pdf

You're also welcome to read the two articles I've written for Perl.com.  They 
should be tackled in order:

	http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/12/04/testing.html
	http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/07/10/tmo.html

The first is a slightly more prose-ish variant of the slides.  The second is a 
fairly detailed look at the process of "mocking".

Enjoy,
-- c
TIMTOWTDI

From markymoon at attbi.com  Thu Jul 11 12:50:16 2002
From: markymoon at attbi.com (MarkyMoon)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Introduction to Testing with Test::More
References: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <3D2DC555.95F96683@attbi.com>

Hi Kids,

 First, I wanted to thank chromatic for his presentation last night.
Testing (among other things) has been a mystery to me, but it didn't
involve nearly as many chicken bones and chanting as I'd feared.

 Also, since so many of our presenters (Austin's
Debug::Toolkit/Randal's many have prepared nifty visual aides for
the meetings and there were recent discussions of an online PDX-PM
library... is there any chance of archiving the slides (or summaries
of the presentations) on the site for future Mongrel... err, Monger
viewing? I know that in six month's I'll wish I could remember
details from merlyn's explanation of the Stonehenge make-over for example.

 Oh yeah let's have the next meeting in the Rose and Raindrop's walk
in fridge ; )

Send more beer,
That  pesky Mark guy

-- 
MarkyMoon

--

@a = ("a".."z"," ","-","!","\n");foreach $b (
18,15,4,2,8,5,8,2,0,19,8,14,13,18,26,0,17,4,26,
5,14,17,26,19,7,4,26,22,4,0,10,26,0,13,3,26,19,
8,12,8,3,28) {print $a[$b]};print $a[29];                           
                    

chromatic wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've put the slides from tonight's presentation on my website.  You're welcome
> to download them.  (I did correct the one error I noticed in the slides, but
> not the potential error in Test::More.)
> 
>         http://wgz.org/chromatic/perl/IntroTestMore.pdf
> 
> You're also welcome to read the two articles I've written for Perl.com.  They
> should be tackled in order:
> 
>         http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/12/04/testing.html
>         http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/07/10/tmo.html
> 
> The first is a slightly more prose-ish variant of the slides.  The second is a
> fairly detailed look at the process of "mocking".
> 
> Enjoy,
> -- c
> TIMTOWTDI
TIMTOWTDI

From markymoon at attbi.com  Thu Jul 11 12:52:09 2002
From: markymoon at attbi.com (MarkyMoon)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Introduction to Testing with Test::More
References: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <3D2DC5C5.850AEF72@attbi.com>

Hi Kids,

 First, I wanted to thank chromatic for his presentation last night.
Testing (among other things) has been a mystery to me, but it didn't
involve nearly as many chicken bones and chanting as I'd feared.

 Also, since so many of our presenters (Austin's
Debug::Toolkit/Randal's many talks) have prepared nifty visual aides
for the meetings and there were recent discussions of an online
PDX-PM library... is there any chance of archiving the slides (or
summaries of the presentations) on the site for future Mongrel...
err, Monger viewing? I know that in six month's I'll wish I could
remember details from merlyn's explanation of the Stonehenge
make-over for example.

 Oh yeah let's have the next meeting in the Rose and Raindrop's walk
in fridge ; )

Send more beer,
That  pesky Mark guy

-- 
MarkyMoon

--

@a = ("a".."z"," ","-","!","\n");foreach $b (
18,15,4,2,8,5,8,2,0,19,8,14,13,18,26,0,17,4,26,
5,14,17,26,19,7,4,26,22,4,0,10,26,0,13,3,26,19,
8,12,8,3,28) {print $a[$b]};print $a[29];                           
                    

chromatic wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've put the slides from tonight's presentation on my website.  You're welcome
> to download them.  (I did correct the one error I noticed in the slides, but
> not the potential error in Test::More.)
> 
>         http://wgz.org/chromatic/perl/IntroTestMore.pdf
> 
> You're also welcome to read the two articles I've written for Perl.com.  They
> should be tackled in order:
> 
>         http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/12/04/testing.html
>         http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/07/10/tmo.html
> 
> The first is a slightly more prose-ish variant of the slides.  The second is a
> fairly detailed look at the process of "mocking".
> 
> Enjoy,
> -- c
> TIMTOWTDI
TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Thu Jul 11 14:18:31 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with Test::More]
In-Reply-To: <3D2DC5C5.850AEF72@attbi.com>
References: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org> <3D2DC5C5.850AEF72@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020711191831.GE10607@eli.net>

On (Thu, Jul 11 10:52), MarkyMoon wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>  Oh yeah let's have the next meeting in the Rose and Raindrop's walk
> in fridge ; )
> 
> Send more beer,
> That  pesky Mark guy

Well... The Rose and Raindrop *does* have a room that seats 22 (bottom
floor in the back) It has a $100 minimum for use, which, if we put
our minds to it, shouldn't be that hard to clear.

It's available one the first or second Weds for the next two months.

It's an option, and an air-conditioned one at that. :-)
-Joshua
TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:41:29 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with Test::More]
In-Reply-To: <20020711191831.GE10607@eli.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207111329260.802-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Joshua Keroes wrote:

> On (Thu, Jul 11 10:52), MarkyMoon wrote:
> > [snip]
> > 
> >  Oh yeah let's have the next meeting in the Rose and Raindrop's walk
> > in fridge ; )
> > 
> > Send more beer,
> > That  pesky Mark guy
> 
> Well... The Rose and Raindrop *does* have a room that seats 22 (bottom
> floor in the back) It has a $100 minimum for use, which, if we put
> our minds to it, shouldn't be that hard to clear.
> 
> It's available one the first or second Weds for the next two months.
> 
> It's an option, and an air-conditioned one at that. :-)

I have another alternative. My boss is willing to let us use the large
conference room at my office.

  Pros:
    * Big enough for the group (judging by the turnout the last two months)
    * Air conditioned
    * Several bars/taverns relatively close
    * Large whiteboard, screen and projection unit builtin
    * Free

  Cons:
    * In Beaverton (near Washington Square)
    * Outside laptops not allowed to connect to LAN as per company policy.
      There is a laptop that lives in the conference room, however it runs 
      Windows. I'd also be willing to burn CDs of required materials and 
      bring them in.

Thoughts?

--
Nick


.--< Nick Forrette >-------------------------------------------------------.
| e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                                                 |
| www   : http://www.drforehead.net/                                       |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 11 16:06:10 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
Message-ID: <fa9cfddf.fddffa9c@mysun.com>


I'm trying to do some regex matching with switch then use part of the
match in the action taken but it seems the values aren't being passed.

switch ($mystr) {
    case /^(somevalue)$/m { print "$_ $1\n"; }
    .
    .
    .
}

The cases are getting matching correctly but both $1 and $_ seem to be
empty... I suspect whats going on is that the regex is getting placed in
a sub and then being called (haven't looked at the code for Switch.pm).
 Is there syntax that will work for me here?

Thanks,

-Joshua Hoblitt

--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Thu Jul 11 16:34:05 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
In-Reply-To: <fa9cfddf.fddffa9c@mysun.com>; from jhoblitt@mysun.com on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 11:06:10AM -1000
References: <fa9cfddf.fddffa9c@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <20020711143405.C2873@gblx.net>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 11:06:10AM -1000, josh hoblitt wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to do some regex matching with switch then use part of the
> match in the action taken but it seems the values aren't being passed.
> 
> switch ($mystr) {
>     case /^(somevalue)$/m { print "$_ $1\n"; }
>     .
>     .
>     .
> }
> 
> The cases are getting matching correctly but both $1 and $_ seem to be
> empty... I suspect whats going on is that the regex is getting placed in
> a sub and then being called (haven't looked at the code for Switch.pm).
>  Is there syntax that will work for me here?
> 

	I suspect you can't use $1 et al because they are only scoped
inside of case().
	If you don't end up getting it to work, here's an equivalent that
I use, which IME works as well or better than the stuff in the switch/case
FAQ: 


$foo='foobar';

$_=$foo;
SWITCH: {
  /oo/ && do {
    print "found foo\n";
  };
  /(b)a/ && do {
    print "found ba\n";
    print "\$1: $1\n";
    # This is equivalent to 'break' in C.
    last SWITCH;
  };
  /r/ && do {
    print "r\n";
  };
  # Default here
}

	Btw, I notice case uses the mysterious { } as a code block, like
sort() does. Can it be explained how to do this in 100 words or less? :-)

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From poec at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 11 16:59:29 2002
From: poec at yahoo.com (Ovid)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
In-Reply-To: <20020711143405.C2873@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20020711215929.50027.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Austin Schutz <tex@off.org> wrote:
> 	I suspect you can't use $1 et al because they are only scoped
> inside of case().

While I haven't used Switch.pm, I think you're correct.  The ${digit} variables are automatically
scoped to the current block and this can cause some surprising behavior.  From "perldoc perlvar":

$<digits>
        Contains the subpattern from the corresponding set
        of capturing parentheses from the last pattern
        match, not counting patterns matched in nested
        blocks that have been exited already.  (Mnemonic:
        like \digits.)  These variables are all read-only
        and dynamically scoped to the current BLOCK.

Cheers,
Curtis "Ovid" Poe

=====
"Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/
Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl:
push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//;
shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
TIMTOWTDI

From todd_caine at eli.net  Thu Jul 11 17:18:23 2002
From: todd_caine at eli.net (Todd Caine)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
References: <fa9cfddf.fddffa9c@mysun.com> <20020711143405.C2873@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <3D2E042F.DD487108@eli.net>


Switch.pm uses a source code filter and converts the block into an anonymous
subroutine.  See Filter::Util::Call for more information on source code
filters.

Cheers,
Todd

Austin Schutz wrote:

>         Btw, I notice case uses the mysterious { } as a code block, like
> sort() does. Can it be explained how to do this in 100 words or less? :-)

TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 11 18:07:22 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
Message-ID: <be4ba19e.a19ebe4b@mysun.com>

I agree that this works... but it doesn't make the code any cleaner to
read then using a bunch of if statements.

I think this falls into the...

"If my dog was that ugly I'd shave it's ass and make it walk backwards".

Department.

-J
> 
> $foo='foobar';
> 
> $_=$foo;
> SWITCH: {
>  /oo/ && do {
>    print "found foo\n";
>  };
>  /(b)a/ && do {
>    print "found ba\n";
>    print "\$1: $1\n";
>    # This is equivalent to 'break' in C.
>    last SWITCH;
>  };
>  /r/ && do {
>    print "r\n";
>  };
>  # Default here
> }
> 

TIMTOWTDI

From todd_caine at eli.net  Thu Jul 11 18:55:48 2002
From: todd_caine at eli.net (Todd Caine)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:38 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
References: <be4ba19e.a19ebe4b@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <3D2E1B04.F89B4C71@eli.net>

josh hoblitt wrote:

> I agree that this works... but it doesn't make the code any cleaner to
> read then using a bunch of if statements.

Although I agree Austin's suggestion doesn't look as clean as the switch
statement it is easier to debug using the perl debugger, IMO.  Have you ever
tried debugging a switch statement with the debugger?  Source code filters
are a neat concept but they make debugging code that uses them a nightmare.

> I think this falls into the...
> "If my dog was that ugly I'd shave it's ass and make it walk backwards".
> Department.

Tell us how you really feel.  :)

my $two_cents =
'todd';

TIMTOWTDI

From cfrjlr at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 11 22:32:28 2002
From: cfrjlr at yahoo.com (charles radley)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with Test::More]
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207111329260.802-100000@snafu.wgz.org>
Message-ID: <3D2E4DCC.1C7976AF@yahoo.com>


Joshua Keroes <joshua_keroes@eli.net>?
n/a wrote:

>   Cons:
>     * In Beaverton (near Washington Square)

I live in Tigard so this would be fine for me.

I actually skipped the latest meeting, I did not like the neighborhood to be
honest.

I would feel happier parking and walking around Washington Square.

Cheers.

Charles F. Radley.


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From tex at off.org  Fri Jul 12 05:38:19 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Switch.pm
In-Reply-To: <be4ba19e.a19ebe4b@mysun.com>; from jhoblitt@mysun.com on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 01:07:22PM -1000
References: <be4ba19e.a19ebe4b@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <20020712033819.A1683@gblx.net>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 01:07:22PM -1000, josh hoblitt wrote:
> I agree that this works... but it doesn't make the code any cleaner to
> read then using a bunch of if statements.
> 

	Some perl programmers have a C background, where switch/case are
common and familiar. If perl came with its own you would perhaps have a
different point of view. I rarely use this type of code, but it can be
handy in places where a string is tested several times over.

> I think this falls into the...
> 
> "If my dog was that ugly I'd shave it's ass and make it walk backwards".
> 
> Department.

	If you don't like it, don't use it. TMTOWTDI. Please keep extreme
judgements to yourself, or at least make some semblance of politeness
about them. I'm sure we all have coding styles which might be considered
ugly or inefficient by others.
	Keep in mind perl was originally designed to be a mishmash of features
from C, awk, sed, sh, etc. etc.

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From SparksC at hlyw.com  Fri Jul 12 10:33:00 2002
From: SparksC at hlyw.com (Chris Sparks)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with
	Test::More]
Message-ID: <sd2e946d.043@groupwise.hlyw.com>

This would also workout for me (closer to where I work.)

Sparky

>>> n/a <nforrett@wgz.com> 07/11/02 01:41PM >>>
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Joshua Keroes wrote:
I have another alternative. My boss is willing to let us use the large
conference room at my office.

  Pros:
    * Big enough for the group (judging by the turnout the last two months)
    * Air conditioned
    * Several bars/taverns relatively close
    * Large whiteboard, screen and projection unit builtin
    * Free

  Cons:
    * In Beaverton (near Washington Square)
    * Outside laptops not allowed to connect to LAN as per company policy.
      There is a laptop that lives in the conference room, however it runs 
      Windows. I'd also be willing to burn CDs of required materials and 
      bring them in.

Thoughts?

--
Nick


.--< Nick Forrette >-------------------------------------------------------.
| e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                                                 |
| www   : http://www.drforehead.net/                                       |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

TIMTOWTDI



TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Fri Jul 12 10:33:16 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Out of town
References: <be4ba19e.a19ebe4b@mysun.com> <20020712033819.A1683@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <016b01c229b9$71889420$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

Just a quick FYI for folks:  I will be out of town for the next three days.
Several of you have sent me private email regarding some discussions at the
last meeting and I *will* respond -- after I get back.

I just wanted you to know that I'm not ignoring you (yet :)
--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!

TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Fri Jul 12 10:47:49 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with Test::More]
In-Reply-To: <sd2e946d.042@groupwise.hlyw.com>
References: <sd2e946d.042@groupwise.hlyw.com>
Message-ID: <20020712154749.GM10607@eli.net>

me too!
</AOL>

-joshua

On (Fri, Jul 12 08:33), Chris Sparks wrote:
> This would also workout for me (closer to where I work.)
> 
> 
> >>> n/a <nforrett@wgz.com> 07/11/02 01:41PM >>>
> I have another alternative. My boss is willing to let us use the large
> conference room at my office.
TIMTOWTDI

From gcheong at acm.org  Fri Jul 12 15:55:35 2002
From: gcheong at acm.org (Greg Cheong)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing withTest::More]
References: <sd2e946d.043@groupwise.hlyw.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c229e6$79cba000$6501a8c0@isolde>

As long as it is in reach of Trimet, I'm fine with it.

Cheers,
Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sparks" <SparksC@hlyw.com>
To: <joshua_keroes@eli.net>; <nforrett@wgz.com>
Cc: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing withTest::More]


> This would also workout for me (closer to where I work.)
>
> Sparky
>
> >>> n/a <nforrett@wgz.com> 07/11/02 01:41PM >>>
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Joshua Keroes wrote:
> I have another alternative. My boss is willing to let us use the large
> conference room at my office.
>
>   Pros:
>     * Big enough for the group (judging by the turnout the last two
months)
>     * Air conditioned
>     * Several bars/taverns relatively close
>     * Large whiteboard, screen and projection unit builtin
>     * Free
>
>   Cons:
>     * In Beaverton (near Washington Square)
>     * Outside laptops not allowed to connect to LAN as per company policy.
>       There is a laptop that lives in the conference room, however it runs
>       Windows. I'd also be willing to burn CDs of required materials and
>       bring them in.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Nick
>
>
> .--< Nick Forrette
>-------------------------------------------------------.
> | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org
|
> | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/
|
>
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
>
> TIMTOWTDI
>
>
>
> TIMTOWTDI
>

TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Fri Jul 12 16:48:08 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing withTest::More]
In-Reply-To: <001b01c229e6$79cba000$6501a8c0@isolde>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207121445530.1036-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Greg Cheong wrote:

> As long as it is in reach of Trimet, I'm fine with it.

It isn't the most convient, but the 76 & 78 come within a couple minutes walk. 
They both run from the Beverton Transit Center towards Tigard and/or Tualitin. 

-- 
Nick

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Sparks" <SparksC@hlyw.com>
> To: <joshua_keroes@eli.net>; <nforrett@wgz.com>
> Cc: <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing withTest::More]
> 
> 
> > This would also workout for me (closer to where I work.)
> >
> > Sparky
> >
> > >>> n/a <nforrett@wgz.com> 07/11/02 01:41PM >>>
> > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Joshua Keroes wrote:
> > I have another alternative. My boss is willing to let us use the large
> > conference room at my office.
> >
> >   Pros:
> >     * Big enough for the group (judging by the turnout the last two
> months)
> >     * Air conditioned
> >     * Several bars/taverns relatively close
> >     * Large whiteboard, screen and projection unit builtin
> >     * Free
> >
> >   Cons:
> >     * In Beaverton (near Washington Square)
> >     * Outside laptops not allowed to connect to LAN as per company policy.
> >       There is a laptop that lives in the conference room, however it runs
> >       Windows. I'd also be willing to burn CDs of required materials and
> >       bring them in.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > --
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > .--< Nick Forrette
> >-------------------------------------------------------.
> > | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org
> |
> > | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/
> |
> >
> `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
> >
> > TIMTOWTDI
> >
> >
> >
> > TIMTOWTDI
> >
> 
> TIMTOWTDI
> 

-- 


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From dora.raymaker at xo.com  Fri Jul 12 17:07:37 2002
From: dora.raymaker at xo.com (Raymaker, Dora)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Meeting Place [was: Introduction to Testing with Test::More]
Message-ID: <45EDA71CFF25D411A2E400508B6FC52A05E595AD@orportexch1.internal.nextlink.net>

For what it's worth, the current location is highly convenient for me; a
Beaveron location will be much more difficult.  I (and the guy I usually
come with) both have to leave work at our PDX downtown location early to
attend meetings.  Adding extra commute could become unhappy and not
consistently do-able.

-D. 
TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Fri Jul 12 23:16:35 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: PHP?
Message-ID: <007b01c22a24$14247cc0$5b86fc83@archer>

Please don't throw anything at me.....
Given my choice, I would almost ALWAYS use perl, however, I am required to use PHP on a specific project.

I am having some troubles with inheritance and I am looking for a good PHP mailing list.  Does anybody out there subscribe to one?

I'll keep you annonymous ;-)

Jason White
-------------- next part --------------
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From karic at lclark.edu  Mon Jul 15 00:40:31 2002
From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>


So, here's my weekend stumper:

I've got an array:

  @foo = qw/apple porsche ferrari wilma barney banana/;

I want to sort it, but I don't want to sort it alphabetically or in any
other predictable way.  Instead, I've got an arbitrary best order.   Using
my example, let's say that I've got 50 items in my preferred order (@bar)
such that the fruit are grouped first, then cars, then flintstones.

What I want is to compare @foo to @bar such that I'm able to reorder @foo
into: apple banana porsche ferrari wilma barney.

Does that make any sense?  Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks...

-kari.


TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Mon Jul 15 01:21:04 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207142314110.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Kari Chisholm wrote:

> What I want is to compare @foo to @bar such that I'm able to reorder @foo

Do you mean that you want to sort @foo in "the same order that @bar is
sorted in"? So if @bar is in order fruit-car-people, that's what you want
for @foo? If that's not what you're saying, then what's @bar got to do
with it?

I think you probably want to sort items by category, which is easy to do
if you have a hash as a category lookup table. You may want a second hash
to hold the category sort order, too. Deriving that second hash from @bar
should be straightforward.

Cheers!

--Tom Phoenix

TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Mon Jul 15 01:26:59 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <gn0stzeto.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Kari" == Kari Chisholm <karic@lclark.edu> writes:

Kari> I want to sort it, but I don't want to sort it alphabetically or
Kari> in any other predictable way.  Instead, I've got an arbitrary
Kari> best order.  Using my example, let's say that I've got 50 items
Kari> in my preferred order (@bar) such that the fruit are grouped
Kari> first, then cars, then flintstones.

Kari> What I want is to compare @foo to @bar such that I'm able to reorder @foo
Kari> into: apple banana porsche ferrari wilma barney.

if you know that @foo is a subset of @bar (that is, there are no
elements of @foo that are not also in @bar), then you can do:

| my %bar_score = do 
| {
|     my $i = 0;
|     map { $_ => ++i } reverse @bar;
| };
| my @foo_by_bar = sort { $bar_score{$a} <=> $bar_score{$b} } @foo

if you think that foo might have elements not in @bar, you can do
something like this:

| my @foo_in_bar = sort { $bar_score{$a} <=> $bar_score{$b} }
|                    grep exists($bar_score{$_}) @bar;
| my @foo_not_in_bar = grep !exists($bar_score{$_}), @foo;
| my @foo_by_bar_with_stragglers = ( @foo_by_bar, @foo_not_in_bar );

the basic idea is to preprocess the "preferred order" (@bar) to
establish a "score" for each one (%bar_score), then rank the raw data
according to that score.  

the "reverse" in the bar_score creation is there so that the first
element of @bar has the highest value; you could simplify that in
various ways, including some that are dynamic (as you see new
elements, you can add them to the end of the list with lower ranking;
this resembles a "first come, first served" arrangement where elements
might appear again, and should be filed with others of their ilk.

if you really want to sort by type, you can extend this idea with
another level of indirection (which describes a very great many
computer science solutions!):

| my @info = ( { type       => 'car',
|                preference => 1000,
|                elements   => [ qw( porsche ferrari
|                                    bmw audi subaru ) ] },
|              { type       => 'fruit',
|                preference => 500,
|                elements   => [ qw( bananna pear apple
|                                    mango merlyn fig ) ] },
|                 
|              { type       => 'toons',
|                preference => 100,
|                elements   => [ qw( fred wilma betty barnie
|                                    stan kyle cartman kenny ) ] } );
| 
| my %pref_of_thing;
| foreach $i (@info)
| {
|     my $el = $i->{elements};
|     @pref_of_thing{ @$el } = ( $i->{preference} ) x @$el;
| }
| 
| my @bar_by_preference =
|   sort { $pref_of_thing{$a} <=> $pref_of_thing{$b} } @bar;

note that @info could easily come from a database.  in this particular
case, the "type" information isn't really used, but you can see how
you might prefer to use that instead...

i also don't know how stable perl's sort is; if a bunch of things
compare equal, i don't know if they will be reordered or not in the
output.

t.
TIMTOWTDI

From creelan at engr.orst.edu  Mon Jul 15 21:43:02 2002
From: creelan at engr.orst.edu (Tyler F. Creelan)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Self-reproducing Spiral
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0207151937280.21490-100000@eel.ENGR.ORST.EDU>

Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?

"This self-reproducing code prints a turning spiral filled with it's own
code."

#!/usr/bin/perl
$_='
         $q ="\                   47"; wh
        ile                           ($ ;=
      $z                +=              .5 ){
    %c=           $r=0;$/ ="";whi         le(2
   0+          $z>($;+=.05)){$c{int$       _+ 2
  6+         2*($              r+= .0       2) *
 s          in$                   ;}{1       -$_
+1         0+           int        $r*c       o s
$         ;}         =1for(0.       .1)        }$
t        =r         ever se;$        /.        =`
c        le        ar     `.         "         #!
/        usr       /bi             n/         pe
rl       \n\       $_ =$q        \n"          ;
fo        r$y        (1..20){$c{$_}          {
$ y       }? $         /.=chop$t            :
 ($/        . ="                          \4
 0")         for(0.                    .53)          ;
   $/.        ="\n"}pri            nt"$/$          q;
   s; ".         chr(9 2)."s;;g;eval\n           "}

';s;\s;;g;eval


Source: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=176043

Also a Win32 version:


#!/usr/bin/perl
$_='
         $q ="\                   47"; wh
        ile                           ($ ;=
      $z                +=              .5 ){
    %c=           $r=0;$/ ="";whi         le(2
   0+          $z>($;+=.05)){$c{int$       _+ 2
  6+         2*($              r+= .0       2) *
 s          in$                   ;}{1       -$_
+1         0+           int        $r*c       o s
$         ;}         =1for(0.       .1)        }$
t        =r         ever se;$        /.        =`
c        le        ar     `.         "         #!
/        usr       /bi             n/         pe
rl       \n\       $_ =$q        \n"          ;
fo        r$y        (1..20){$c{$_}          {
$ y       }? $         /.=chop$t            :
 ($/        . ="                          \4
 0")         for(0.                    .53)          ;
   $/.        ="\n"}pri            nt"$/$          q;
   s; ".         chr(9 2)."s;;g;eval\n           "}

';s;\s;;g;eval


TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Tue Jul 16 00:13:12 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Self-reproducing Spiral
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0207151937280.21490-100000@eel.ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207152204250.11086-200000@snafu.wgz.org>


On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?

I've attached my attempt. Once you reformat the code in a sane manner, and see 
through all the distractions, it is not nearly so terrifying. =)

[snip]

-- 
Nick

 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'

-------------- next part --------------
On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?
> 
> "This self-reproducing code prints a turning spiral filled with it's own
> code."
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> $_='
>          $q ="\                   47"; wh
>         ile                           ($ ;=
>       $z                +=              .5 ){
>     %c=           $r=0;$/ ="";whi         le(2
>    0+          $z>($;+=.05)){$c{int$       _+ 2
>   6+         2*($              r+= .0       2) *
>  s          in$                   ;}{1       -$_
> +1         0+           int        $r*c       o s
> $         ;}         =1for(0.       .1)        }$
> t        =r         ever se;$        /.        =`
> c        le        ar     `.         "         #!
> /        usr       /bi             n/         pe
> rl       \n\       $_ =$q        \n"          ;
> fo        r$y        (1..20){$c{$_}          {
> $ y       }? $         /.=chop$t            :
>  ($/        . ="                          \4
>  0")         for(0.                    .53)          ;
>    $/.        ="\n"}pri            nt"$/$          q;
>    s; ".         chr(9 2)."s;;g;eval\n           "}

Set $_ to be a rather large string of (poorly) formatted perl code.
 
> ';s;\s;;g;

# Remove all the whitespace from $_

> eval

Evaluate the whitespaceless $_.

Now if we remove the whitespace earlier, and strategicly add some back in to 
clarify the ccdes intent, you get something like this...

$q = "\47" ;
while( $; = $z += .5) {
  %c = $r= 0 ;
  $/ = "" ;
  
  while( 20 + $z > ($; += .05)) {
    $c{int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += .02) * sin $;}{1 - $_ + 10 + int $r * cos $;} = 1 for(0 .. 1)
  }

  $t = reverse ;
  $/ . = `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n" ;

  for $y (1 .. 20) {
    $c{$_}{$y} ? $/ .= chop $t : ($/ .= "\40") for(0 .. 53);
    $/ .= "\n"
  }

  print "$/$q;s;" . chr(92) . "s;;g;eval\n"
}

With some added comments, and rewriting the inner while loop, you get 
the following.

# Set $q to ascii octal 47, or the single quote
$q = "\47" ;

# Increment the subscript separator (perldoc perlvar) and $z by .5
while( $; = $z += .5) {
  %c = $r = 0 ;

  # Set the INPUT_RECORD_SEPARATOR to the empty string (perldoc perlvar)
  $/ = "" ;
  
  # The first time through the outer loop...
  # Increment the subscript separator to .55, and loop while it is < 20+$z 
  # ($z is .5 at the start of the loop)
  while( 20 + $z > ($; += .05)) {
    
    # $_ == 0 and $r == 0    and $; == .55 the first time through the loop
    # $_ == 1 and $r ==  .02 and $; == .55 the second time through the loop
    for (0 .. 1) {
      # Set $c{26}{11} = 1 the first time through the loop
      # Set $c{27}{10} = 1 the second time through the loop
      $c{int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += .02) * sin $;}{1 - $_ + 10 + int $r * cos $;} = 1 ;
    }

    # Repeat the while loop, with $; (subscript separator) == .06
  }
  
  # $t is empty the first time through the outer loop
  $t = reverse ;

  # This clears the screen and represents the first two lines of replicated
  # code in each iteration of the outer while loop
  $/ . = `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n" ;

  # Some yet to be determined magic happens here. This combined with the
  # previous inner while/for loops eventually manages to recreate the
  # spiralized bit of code in the middle. If I was more familiar with how
  # sin/cos fit in with mathematical formulas for spirals, this would be a tad
  # easier. Maybe someone else could shed a little light (and/or wait for me
  # to do a bit more digging around).
  for $y (1 .. 20) {
    $c{$_}{$y} ? $/ .= chop $t : ($/ .= "\40") for(0 .. 53);
    $/ .= "\n"
  }
  
  # And here, you can forget all the other mumbo-jumbo in the previous while
  # loops, and sine/cosine stuff because the code never futzed with $q. 
  # It just clears the screen, prints the first two lines, the body of the 
  # code, and constructs the last two lines in not-terrible obvious manner
  # (ascii 92 is backslash).
  print "$/$q;s;" . chr(92) . "s;;g;eval\n"

  # Repeat the loop a bunch of times needlessly.
}

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Tue Jul 16 00:18:18 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Self-reproducing Spiral
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0207151937280.21490-100000@eel.ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207152109210.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> "This self-reproducing code prints a turning spiral filled with it's own
> code."

Well, the whole spiral is just a single-quoted string. Just after that
string is assigned to $_, the code at the bottom is the engine:

    s;\s;;g;eval

The engine strips out the whitespace and evals that code. (The eval
operator, used like this, compiles and runs whatever Perl code is found in
$_. Using eval on a string is a bad idea in general, unless you totally
understand why it's a bad idea.)

Of course, that code looks like this without the whitespace:

    $q="\47";while($;=$z+=.5){%c=$r=0;$/="";while(20+$z>($;+=.05)){$c{int$_+26+2*($r+=.02)*sin$;}{1-$_+10+int$r*cos$;}=1for(0..1)}$t=reverse;$/.=`clear`."#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n";for$y(1..20){$c{$_}{$y}?$/.=chop$t:($/.="\40")for(0..53);$/.="\n"}print"$/$q;s;".chr(92)."s;;g;eval\n"}

So I'll put the whitespace back, in the right places, by using B::Deparse
with a command like this: perl -MO=Deparse source >deparsed , then I'll
fix up one extra long line to get this:

    $q = q['];
    while ($; = $z += 0.5) {
	%c = ($r = 0);
	$/ = '';
	while (20 + $z > ($; += 0.05)) {
	    foreach $_ (0 .. 1) {
		$c
		  {int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += 0.02) * sin($;)}
		  {1 - $_ + 10 + int($r * cos($;))}
		      = 1;
	    }
	}
	$t = reverse;
	$/ .= `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n";
	foreach $y (1 .. 20) {
	    foreach $_ (0 .. 53) {
		$c{$_}{$y} ? ($/ .= chop $t) : ($/ .= ' ');
	    }
	    $/ .= "\n";
	}
	print "$/$q;s;" . '\\' . "s;;g;eval\n";
    }

Here, let me annotate that:

    $q = q['];		# A single quote. The actual source uses
    			# neither single quotes nor whitespace.
    while ($; = $z += 0.5) {
            # Although $; is one of Perl's internal variables, it's
	    # being used here as an ordinary one. Pretend it's
	    # $semi if you'd rather. It is an angle expressed in
	    # radians. Of course, the while loop is a decoy; it's
	    # an infinite loop. This program runs until you break
	    # out of it. $z is an initial rotation parameter.
	%c = ($r = 0);
	    # This is erasing the contents of %c, although it's an
	    # odd way to do it. %c is being used to hold a picture of
	    # the spiral. (Not a normal use of a hash!) The value of
	    # $c{$x}{$y} will be true if the spiral intersects
	    # position $x, $y. $r is the radius of the spiral.
	    # $x ranges from 0 to 53, $y from 1 to 20.
	$/ = '';
	    # This is another internal variable being used for the
	    # author's own purposes. This one is collecting the
	    # output as one big multi-line string.
	while (20 + $z > ($; += 0.05)) {
	    foreach $_ (0 .. 1) {
		$c
		  {int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += 0.02) * sin($;)}
		      # That's the X-coord in the spiral picture. The
		      # constant 26 is half of the width of the
		      # spiral, roughly.
		  {1 - $_ + 10 + int($r * cos($;))}
		      # That's the Y-coord; 10 is half of the height.
		      = 1;
	    }
	}
	$t = reverse;
	    # That reverses $_ (which holds this program's source,
	    # remember?) storing the resulting string into $t. It's
	    # being reversed so that chop() will remove characters
	    # in the proper order.
	$/ .= `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n";
	    # The output of clear (external command being run in
	    # backticks) is your system's "clear screen" code.
	foreach $y (1 .. 20) {
	    foreach $_ (0 .. 53) {
		$c{$_}{$y} ? ($/ .= chop $t) : ($/ .= ' ');
		    # Either a space or some code, depending upon
		    # the spiral table, %c. It would be better,
		    # if you must use the ternary op, to write
		    # that like this:
		    #    $/ .= $c{$_}{$y} ? chop $t : ' '
	    }
	    $/ .= "\n";
	}
	print "$/$q;s;" . '\\' . "s;;g;eval\n";
	    # That outputs the engine at the bottom, spoiling
	    # the look of the spiral.
    }

The author of this code missed a number of opportunites to improve it
(although whether my changes would be improvements is a matter of debate).
In fact, a number of features make me wonder whether the author wrote it
originally for Perl 4, working around the lack of references by using
something like "$_!$y" as a hash key. (As far as I can see, this code
should work fine in Perl 4 with that mod. But I don't keep Perl 4 around
for testing.)

If I've missed anything, I hope someone else will jump in. Hope this
helps!

--Tom

TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Tue Jul 16 00:28:38 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Self-reproducing Spiral
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0207151937280.21490-100000@eel.ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207152226490.11221-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?

Yeah. Crap. Got a little over-eager and forgot that $q was single-quote,
rather than the eval'd string from the beginning. Time to A: get some sleep,
and B: dig into the formula for spirals.

-- 
Nick

 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From erike at visi.com  Tue Jul 16 03:07:54 2002
From: erike at visi.com (Rev. Dr. Erik C  Elmshauser)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <1026806875.764.1686.camel@nexus>

Hi,
	I am new to the list, is there an FAQ of any kind I should read?  I
attended a few PM meetings in Minneapolis when I lived in Minnesota, but
I have been here in portland for years now, and I am just getting back
into perl.  I hope this post isn't too out of line for the list.
	--Erik

TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Tue Jul 16 03:35:42 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Hello
In-Reply-To: <1026806875.764.1686.camel@nexus>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207160121220.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On 16 Jul 2002, Rev. Dr. Erik C  Elmshauser wrote:

> I am new to the list, is there an FAQ of any kind I should read?

Nothing that isn't obvious. :-)  By which I mean that you should at least
scan the Perl docs before asking about Perl....

This list runs pretty informally. So long as you don't do something
amazingly stupid, you'll fit in just fine.

The main topic is our monthly gatherings, then comes anything
perl-related. Occasionally there's some job-hunting-related stuff, but
there seems to be a consensus that if that gets to be more than
occasional, we'll move it to another list.

Did that answer your question? Cheers!

--Tom Phoenix

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Tue Jul 16 10:08:05 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Hello
In-Reply-To: <1026806875.764.1686.camel@nexus>
References: <1026806875.764.1686.camel@nexus>
Message-ID: <86ofd7sobu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Rev" == Rev Dr Erik C <" Elmshauser <erike@visi.com>> writes:

Rev> 	I am new to the list, is there an FAQ of any kind I should read?

You have to have Frequently Asked Questions before you can have a FAQ. :)

So far, the only FAQ is "where's the next meeting, and what's it
about" and the answer to that is as unpredictable as Schrodinger's
Animal Supply.  Stay tuned... :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Tue Jul 16 13:01:48 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Self-reproducing Spiral
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0207151937280.21490-100000@eel.ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207161100541.1024-200000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?

Ok, I think I've redeemed myself. ;-) See attached. 

-- 
Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'

-------------- next part --------------
On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Tyler F. Creelan wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this (very awesome!) perl code works?
> 
> "This self-reproducing code prints a turning spiral filled with it's own
> code."
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> $_='
>          $q ="\                   47"; wh
>         ile                           ($ ;=
>       $z                +=              .5 ){
>     %c=           $r=0;$/ ="";whi         le(2
>    0+          $z>($;+=.05)){$c{int$       _+ 2
>   6+         2*($              r+= .0       2) *
>  s          in$                   ;}{1       -$_
> +1         0+           int        $r*c       o s
> $         ;}         =1for(0.       .1)        }$
> t        =r         ever se;$        /.        =`
> c        le        ar     `.         "         #!
> /        usr       /bi             n/         pe
> rl       \n\       $_ =$q        \n"          ;
> fo        r$y        (1..20){$c{$_}          {
> $ y       }? $         /.=chop$t            :
>  ($/        . ="                          \4
>  0")         for(0.                    .53)          ;
>    $/.        ="\n"}pri            nt"$/$          q;
>    s; ".         chr(9 2)."s;;g;eval\n           "}

Set $_ to be a rather large string of (poorly) formatted perl code.
 
> ';s;\s;;g;

# Remove all the whitespace from $_

> eval

Evaluate the whitespaceless $_.

Now if we remove the whitespace earlier, and strategicly add some back in to 
clarify the ccdes intent, you get something like this...

$q = "\47" ;
while( $; = $z += .5) {
  %c = $r= 0 ;
  $/ = "" ;
  
  while( 20 + $z > ($; += .05)) {
    $c{int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += .02) * sin $;}{1 - $_ + 10 + int $r * cos $;} = 1 for(0 .. 1)
  }

  $t = reverse ;
  $/ . = `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n" ;

  for $y (1 .. 20) {
    $c{$_}{$y} ? $/ .= chop $t : ($/ .= "\40") for(0 .. 53);
    $/ .= "\n"
  }

  print "$/$q;s;" . chr(92) . "s;;g;eval\n"
}

With some added comments, and rewriting the inner while loop, you get 
the following.

# Set $q to ascii octal 47, or the single quote
$q = "\47" ;

# Increment $; and $z by .5. It appears that $; is used to obfusticate things,
# as is $/ (in other words, they could have used normal variables)
while( $; = $z += .5) {
  %c = $r = 0 ;
  $/ = "" ;
  
  # This loop actually constructs the spiral. The hash %c is used to store the
  # legal locations that characters can be stored in the final result. The
  # first key is the Y screen coordinate, the second hash key is the X
  # coordinate. If a character is allowed at that point on the screen, the
  # appropriate hash entry is set to 1.
  while( 20 + $z > ($; += .05)) {
    for (0 .. 1) {
      # Formula for spiral of archimedes: 
      #   x = t cos t
      #   y = t sin t
      # where x and y are rectangular coordinates, and t is time.
      # in this case, $c{Y-coord}{X-coord}, and $; represents time
      # the rest seems to be fudge factor
      $c{int $_ + 26 + 2 * ($r += .02) * sin $;}{1 - $_ + 10 + int $r * cos $;} = 1 ;
    }
  }
  
  # Here is where the magic happens. Remember that $_ was s/\s//g -ified, and
  # then evaled. Now $_ still contains the whitespace stripped code. However,
  # the code that was whitepsace stripped was capable of reconstructing the
  # original spiral (stored in %c). So $t ends up with the reverse of the body
  #  code
  $t = reverse ;

  # This clears the screen and represents the first two lines of replicated
  # code in each iteration of the outer while loop
  $/ . = `clear` . "#!/usr/bin/perl\n\$_=$q\n" ;
  
  
  # Loop over the X/Y coordinates 
  for $y (1 .. 20) {
    for (0 .. 53)
    {
      # if the spiral calculator determined that there should be a character
      # here, chop a character off the end and append it to $/ (which contains
      # the screen clearing, and first two lines of code already. Remember 
      # that $t is the code backwards, so this will be the first character of 
      # the code forwards. If there is not supposed to be a character here,
      # then put a space character in that location.
      $c{$_}{$y} ? $/ .= chop $t : ($/ .= "\40") ;
    }
    $/ .= "\n"
  }
  
  # Here we print out the first two lines, and the spiralized body code, then
  # the last s;\s;; and eval.
  print "$/$q;s;" . chr(92) . "s;;g;eval\n"

  # The outer loop is purely for effect. It has the net effect of making the
  # spiral appear to rotate. However, I found that you have to have a suitable
  # slow machine to actually see the spiraling. Strictly speaking, it is not
  # needed.
}

From jeff at vpservices.com  Tue Jul 16 20:27:34 2002
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Broadband options in PDX?
References: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <3D34C806.2000602@vpservices.com>

No Perl content here, but I was hoping some fellow techies would have a 
suggestion for getting broadband at home other than ATT.  I'm near Mt. 
Tabor, can't get DSL, probably have too many trees for a dish or 
antennae.  Anyone know of other options?

-- 
Jeff

TIMTOWTDI

From nat at powning.org  Tue Jul 16 22:50:56 2002
From: nat at powning.org (Nathaniel Powning)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Broadband options in PDX?
In-Reply-To: <3D34C806.2000602@vpservices.com>
Message-ID: <20020716205014.B48270-100000@marglar.powning.org>

Make sure you check out the node map at http://maps.personaltelco.net,
there may be someone close enough that's sharing bandwidth over 802.11b.

On 16 Jul 2002, Jeff Zucker wrote:

> No Perl content here, but I was hoping some fellow techies would have a
> suggestion for getting broadband at home other than ATT.  I'm near Mt.
> Tabor, can't get DSL, probably have too many trees for a dish or
> antennae.  Anyone know of other options?
>
> --
> Jeff
>
> TIMTOWTDI
>

TIMTOWTDI

From jeff at vpservices.com  Wed Jul 17 13:29:27 2002
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Broadband options in PDX?
References: <200207102156.25602.chromatic@wgz.org> <3D34C806.2000602@vpservices.com> <20020716211742.C10327@patch.com>
Message-ID: <3D35B787.4090703@vpservices.com>

Thanks all for the many helpful answers.  I guess TIMTOWTDI with 
broadband too :-).

mikeraz@PATCH.COM wrote:

> A letter to the PUC has helped others get DSL in the past.


Now that is a very interesting idea.  Do you have any pointers to 
relevant regulatory info to help me understand what Qwest and PUC 
*ought* to be doing (as distinct from what they actually do)?

-- 
Jeff

TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Wed Jul 17 16:36:12 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
Message-ID: <438e6427e2.427e2438e6@mysun.com>


I know there are several web developers on this list so please excuse my
rant as to how much flash/shockwave sucks.  Even if it wasn't so
irritating it's just not an option on all platforms.  I'm going to
scream if mozilla prompts me one more time to install a plugin that
doens't exist for solaris.  (maybe I should rant on perlmonks.org)

Anyways I've decided to build a lightweight proxy to strip flash from
HTML.  Anyone have suggestions on how to proceed?  I see Toms
Proxy::HTML but I think I'm going to have to use HTML::Parser directly.
   Would anyone like to work on this with me?

Thanks,

-Joshua Hoblitt

--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Jul 17 16:59:57 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <438e6427e2.427e2438e6@mysun.com>
References: <438e6427e2.427e2438e6@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <86vg7ekobm.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "josh" == josh hoblitt <jhoblitt@mysun.com> writes:

josh> I know there are several web developers on this list so please excuse my
josh> rant as to how much flash/shockwave sucks.  Even if it wasn't so
josh> irritating it's just not an option on all platforms.  I'm going to
josh> scream if mozilla prompts me one more time to install a plugin that
josh> doens't exist for solaris.  (maybe I should rant on perlmonks.org)

josh> Anyways I've decided to build a lightweight proxy to strip flash from
josh> HTML.  Anyone have suggestions on how to proceed?  I see Toms
josh> Proxy::HTML but I think I'm going to have to use HTML::Parser directly.
josh>    Would anyone like to work on this with me?

in google, type

        site:stonehenge.com http proxy

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Wed Jul 17 19:02:10 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Object IO
Message-ID: <01b801c22dee$5de79680$5b86fc83@archer>

What is the best method to read and write objects from file? Should I serialize the object?  I've heard Data::Dumper mentioned for saving hashes, is it good for this purpose as well?

Jason White
-------------- next part --------------
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From kawsmo at ryefish.com  Wed Jul 17 19:17:19 2002
From: kawsmo at ryefish.com (Tim Riley)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <438e6427e2.427e2438e6@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020717170425.02341c80@mail.slip.net>

In addition to stripping out flash/shockwave, consider supporting SVG 
(scalar vector graphics), an xml based alternative to flash.  There just 
happens to be a perl module to dynamically generate SVG files.  SVG 
rendering engines seem not as fast as flash right now, but because its xml 
some browsers are already beginning to support SVG natively.

Best of luck stripping out flash :)

Tim

At 11:36 AM 7/17/2002 -1000, josh hoblitt wrote:

>I know there are several web developers on this list so please excuse my
>rant as to how much flash/shockwave sucks.  Even if it wasn't so
>irritating it's just not an option on all platforms.  I'm going to
>scream if mozilla prompts me one more time to install a plugin that
>doens't exist for solaris.  (maybe I should rant on perlmonks.org)
>
>Anyways I've decided to build a lightweight proxy to strip flash from
>HTML.  Anyone have suggestions on how to proceed?  I see Toms
>Proxy::HTML but I think I'm going to have to use HTML::Parser directly.
>    Would anyone like to work on this with me?
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Joshua Hoblitt
>
>--
>jhoblitt@mysun.com
>
>TIMTOWTDI

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jul 18 01:32:09 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: Object IO
In-Reply-To: <01b801c22dee$5de79680$5b86fc83@archer>
References: <01b801c22dee$5de79680$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <86sn2hk0ly.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> What is the best method to read and write objects from file?
Jason> Should I serialize the object?  I've heard Data::Dumper
Jason> mentioned for saving hashes, is it good for this purpose as
Jason> well?

Data::Dumper does too much work, making Perl code on the way out, and
then having to eval it on the way in.

My favorite is Storable, now part of the Perl core, but easily found
in the CPAN for older Perls.

Also look into Tie::MLDBM, which gives an indexed way to partition a
file, using Storable automatically to store and retrieve complex
objects.

If you want something more interesting, look at Tangram, which
provides an object to relational-database mapping.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From erike at pbgnw.com  Thu Jul 18 12:45:02 2002
From: erike at pbgnw.com (Elmshauser, Erik)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
Message-ID: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4784@HERMES.pbgnw.com>

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From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jul 18 12:52:50 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
In-Reply-To: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4784@HERMES.pbgnw.com>
References: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4784@HERMES.pbgnw.com>
Message-ID: <86fzyghqj1.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Elmshauser," == Elmshauser, Erik <erike@pbgnw.com> writes:

Elmshauser,> I am working on setting up apache and mod_perl to run in a chroot jail.
Elmshauser,> I have done this in the past without a problem, but this time It's
Elmshauser,> acting up.  When I try to give it the -e flag it treats it like a file
Elmshauser,> name, not a flag.  Here is a little clip  from the shell:

Do you have a /tmp in the jail?  Backrev versions of Perl (prior to
5.8) write a small file in /tmp to run the -e script.  So the error
message perhaps is accurate... :)

In 5.8, this was eliminated, because it can lead to a security hole.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From erike at pbgnw.com  Thu Jul 18 13:22:09 2002
From: erike at pbgnw.com (Elmshauser, Erik)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
Message-ID: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4785@HERMES.pbgnw.com>

> Do you have a /tmp in the jail?  Backrev versions of Perl (prior to
> 5.8) write a small file in /tmp to run the -e script.  So the error
> message perhaps is accurate... :)
 
> In 5.8, this was eliminated, because it can lead to a security hole.
 
Yeah, there was a /tmp there, but it was set to 755.  Setting it to 777
does not seem to have resolved the issue.
 
root@charon:/# chmod 777 tmp/
root@charon:/# ./usr/local/bin/perl -e 'exit'
Can't open perl script "-e": No such file or directory
 
Also, that error looks like it is trying to use '-e' as a filename, I'm
not sure, but I doubt that this is what perl would use for a temp file
name...
      --Erik
 
Rev. Dr. Erik C Elmshauser D.D.
Head of I.T.
Pacific Benefits Group NW LLC
erike@pbgnw.com
Phone  - 800.259.0455
Fax    - 800.662.0082
 There are 10 kinds of people in the world,
Those that can do binary arithmetic, and those that can't.
 
TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Thu Jul 18 13:30:09 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
In-Reply-To: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4785@HERMES.pbgnw.com>; from erike@pbgnw.com on Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:22:09AM -0700
References: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4785@HERMES.pbgnw.com>
Message-ID: <20020718113009.S27293@gblx.net>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:22:09AM -0700, Elmshauser, Erik wrote:
> > Do you have a /tmp in the jail?  Backrev versions of Perl (prior to
> > 5.8) write a small file in /tmp to run the -e script.  So the error
> > message perhaps is accurate... :)
>  
> > In 5.8, this was eliminated, because it can lead to a security hole.
>  
> Yeah, there was a /tmp there, but it was set to 755.  Setting it to 777
> does not seem to have resolved the issue.
>  

	/tmp should be set to 1777 to prevent other folks from monkeying with
your /tmp files. It is a security issue w/out the 1.

> root@charon:/# chmod 777 tmp/
> root@charon:/# ./usr/local/bin/perl -e 'exit'
> Can't open perl script "-e": No such file or directory
>  
> Also, that error looks like it is trying to use '-e' as a filename, I'm
> not sure, but I doubt that this is what perl would use for a temp file
> name...

	Try running truss/strace on it. That will show you what it's trying
to do.


	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From erike at pbgnw.com  Thu Jul 18 15:02:43 2002
From: erike at pbgnw.com (Elmshauser, Erik)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
Message-ID: <0FD2E5E35F0C0D41AEA66C9C6F39F30D4787@HERMES.pbgnw.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Schutz [mailto:tex@off.org] 
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:30 AM
To: Elmshauser, Erik
Cc: pdx-pm-list@pm.org
Subject: Re: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail

	/tmp should be set to 1777 to prevent other folks from monkeying
with
your /tmp files. It is a security issue w/out the 1.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of security inside the chroot jail, but from
outside the jail it's important, the sticky bit is now set.  Thanks.


	Try running truss/strace on it. That will show you what it's
trying
to do.

Good idea here too.  I used strace to find that it was failing to open
/dev/null and dieing.  I created a dev null inside the jail and now it's
running fine.

Thank you Randal and Austin!
	--Erik

TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 16:33:39 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
Message-ID: <10bc3c661.c66110bc3@mysun.com>


> There are 10 kinds of people in the world,
> Those that can do binary arithmetic, and those that can't.
 
I hate to ask but is that .sig big-endian or little-endian? :) 

TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 16:33:56 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: perl -e is acting funny in a chroot jail
Message-ID: <d6b212182.12182d6b2@mysun.com>


> There are 10 kinds of people in the world,
> Those that can do binary arithmetic, and those that can't.
 
I hate to ask but is that .sig big-endian or little-endian? :) 

TIMTOWTDI

From karic at lclark.edu  Thu Jul 18 18:00:01 2002
From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu> <gn0stzeto.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <3D374871.10D9C401@lclark.edu>



Tkil wrote:

> if you know that @foo is a subset of @bar (that is, there are no
> elements of @foo that are not also in @bar), then you can do:
> 
> | my %bar_score = do
> | {
> |     my $i = 0;
> |     map { $_ => ++i } reverse @bar;
> | };
> | my @foo_by_bar = sort { $bar_score{$a} <=> $bar_score{$b} } @foo
> 


Bingo.  This is exactly what I wanted.  I'll give it a shot.  Thanks.

-kari.
TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 18:16:58 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
Message-ID: <dc02c540.c540dc02@mysun.com>

I discovered something interesting: HTTP:Daemon doesn't work correctly
on perl 5.6.1/solaris 8.  The object will allow one connection then die
on the next attempt to call accept.  I tried setting some
IO::Socket::Inet options with no luck.  The problem is fairly lowlevel
as the OS is still holding the socket open for sometime after the code
exits.  (I verified that the code still works on perl 5.6.1/linux 2.4)

Anyone have a solaris 8 box to try and replicate the issue?

-Joshua Hoblitt

--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

----- Original Message -----
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: HTML filtering

> of course.  just do it when $response->content_type eq "text/html", 
> andyou'll be fine.
> -- 
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 
> 777 0095
> <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:" 
> target="l">http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>Perl/Unix/security 
> consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl 
> training!

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jul 18 18:23:05 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <dc02c540.c540dc02@mysun.com>
References: <dc02c540.c540dc02@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <86znwoei3q.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "josh" == josh hoblitt <jhoblitt@mysun.com> writes:

josh> I discovered something interesting: HTTP:Daemon doesn't work correctly
josh> on perl 5.6.1/solaris 8.  The object will allow one connection then die
josh> on the next attempt to call accept.  I tried setting some
josh> IO::Socket::Inet options with no luck.  The problem is fairly lowlevel
josh> as the OS is still holding the socket open for sometime after the code
josh> exits.  (I verified that the code still works on perl 5.6.1/linux 2.4)

One of my programs (the preforking server) broke under some OS
releases because flock() on the master socket isn't supported
properly.  I had to switch to including __END__ in the program and
then flocking DATA in the same way (a cheap trick, but effective :).

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Thu Jul 18 18:33:27 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
In-Reply-To: <3D374871.10D9C401@lclark.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
	<gn0stzeto.fsf@brand.scrye.com> <3D374871.10D9C401@lclark.edu>
Message-ID: <gr8i0y5ko.fsf@brand.scrye.com>


I wrote:

> if you know that @foo is a subset of @bar (that is, there are no
> elements of @foo that are not also in @bar), then you can do:
> 
> | my %bar_score = do
> | {
> |     my $i = 0;
> |     map { $_ => ++i } reverse @bar;
                    ^^^
> | };
> | my @foo_by_bar = sort { $bar_score{$a} <=> $bar_score{$b} } @foo
> 

Sigh.  The things I see when I'm awake.   That should be ++$i, of
course.

One way to avoid the reverse is to start with a higher score, and
count down.  (Or start with zero and go negative -- same difference.)

So, I'd probably really do it more like this:

| #!/usr/bin/perl -w
| 
| use strict;
| 
| my @bar = qw( porsche bmw audi buick ford chevy subaru jaguar
|               horse cow dog cat pig
|               sushi hamburger fish-n-chips burrito
|               pear apple mango banana strawberry grapefruit orange );
| 
| my @foo = qw( banana porsche subaru apple cat oddball buick cow mango );
| 
| my @foo_by_bar = do
| {
|     my $i = 0;
|     my %s = map { $_ => ++$i } @bar;
|     if (my @missing = grep !exists($s{$_}), @foo)
|     {
|         warn "not in bar: @missing\n";
|         foreach (@missing) { $s{$_} = ++$i; }
|     }
|     sort { $s{$a} <=> $s{$b} } @foo;
| };
| 
| print "foo:    @foo\n",
|       "by bar: @foo_by_bar\n";

If you are into micro-optimizations, it might be amusing to compare
the "map" scoring with something like:

| my %s;
| @s{@bar} = 0 .. $#bar;

Which might be a bit faster.  I wouldn't make any wagers one way or
another, though.  Heh.  You'll have to adjust the backup scoring, too,
yielding:

| my @foo_by_bar = do
| {
|     my %s;
|     @s{@bar} = 0 .. $#bar;
|     if (my @missing = grep !exists($s{$_}), @foo)
|     {
|         warn "not in bar: @missing\n";
|         @s{@missing} = @bar .. @bar+@missing-1;
|     }
|     sort { $s{$a} <=> $s{$b} } @foo;
| };

Anyway.  Happy nugget polishing,
t.
TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Thu Jul 18 18:40:11 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: arbitrary sorting...
In-Reply-To: <gr8i0y5ko.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10207142232390.9745-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
	<gn0stzeto.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
	<3D374871.10D9C401@lclark.edu>
	<gr8i0y5ko.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <15671.20955.248541.758415@brand.scrye.com>


Last response to myself for a while, I hope.

>>>>> "Tkil" == tkil  <tkil@scrye.com> writes:

Tkil> One way to avoid the reverse is to start with a higher score,
Tkil> and count down.  (Or start with zero and go negative -- same
Tkil> difference.)

I did this:

| my @foo_by_bar = do
| {
|     my $i = @bar;
|     my %s = map { $_ => --$i } @bar;
|     if (my @missing = grep !exists($s{$_}), @foo)
|     {
|         warn "not in bar: @missing";
|         foreach (@missing) { $s{$_} = ++$i; }
|     }
|     sort { $s{$a} <=> $s{$b} } @foo;
| };

Which sorted in the opposite order.  Giving bigger values to the
earlier members of @bar makes sense if they are "weights", but that
sort comparison function was expects "ranks".

Anyway, I suppose I could have just flipped the comparison, but I
ended up deciding that I'd just "score" from zero and sort in
ascending order.

Hope that makes more sense.

t.
TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 19:07:36 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
Message-ID: <d3b51392d.1392dd3b5@mysun.com>

Perl CookBook page 628:

"On some operating systems, notably Solaris, you connot have multiple
children doing an accept on the same socket.  You have to use file
locking to ensure that only one child can call accept at any particular
moment."

Randal's code doesn't prefork multiple children so that can't be exactly
whats going on but atleast it's a clue.
--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

----- Original Message -----
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: HTML filtering

> >>>>> "josh" == josh hoblitt <jhoblitt@mysun.com> writes:
> 
> josh> I discovered something interesting: HTTP:Daemon doesn't work 
> correctlyjosh> on perl 5.6.1/solaris 8.  The object will allow one 
> connection then die
> josh> on the next attempt to call accept.  I tried setting some
> josh> IO::Socket::Inet options with no luck.  The problem is fairly 
> lowleveljosh> as the OS is still holding the socket open for 
> sometime after the code
> josh> exits.  (I verified that the code still works on perl 
> 5.6.1/linux 2.4)
> 
> One of my programs (the preforking server) broke under some OS
> releases because flock() on the master socket isn't supported
> properly.  I had to switch to including __END__ in the program and
> then flocking DATA in the same way (a cheap trick, but effective :).
> 
> -- 
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 
> 777 0095
> <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:" 
> target="l">http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>Perl/Unix/security 
> consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl 
> training!TIMTOWTDI
> 

TIMTOWTDI

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jul 18 19:13:18 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <d3b51392d.1392dd3b5@mysun.com>
References: <d3b51392d.1392dd3b5@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <86ptxkefs1.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "josh" == josh hoblitt <jhoblitt@mysun.com> writes:

josh> Perl CookBook page 628:
josh> "On some operating systems, notably Solaris, you connot have multiple
josh> children doing an accept on the same socket.  You have to use file
josh> locking to ensure that only one child can call accept at any particular
josh> moment."

No, that's a different problem, one which I thought I had avoided by
using flock. :)

*That* problem is a bunch of people doing accept() without any kind
of flock().

However, as I was dragging around my preforking proxy server from
machine to machine, it broke some places, but I can't recall where.
Hence, I switched to a different strategy.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 19:26:39 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
Message-ID: <c57410dca.10dcac574@mysun.com>

A blocking call to flock before calling accept on a HTTP::Daemon object
and then releasing doesn't seem to solve the problem.  But calling sleep
1 after an accept seems to make the problem go away as long as your
making serialized connections.

This is a snipet from HTTP::Daemon.  I suspect I need to add some
locking in there but I'm not sure exactly what SUPER is.  Any ideas on
what needs to be done?

sub accept
{
    my $self = shift;
    my $pkg = shift || "HTTP::Daemon::ClientConn";
    my ($sock, $peer) = $self->SUPER::accept($pkg);
    if ($sock) {
	${*$sock}{'httpd_daemon'} = $self;
	return wantarray ? ($sock, $peer) : $sock;
    } else {
	return;
    }
}


Thanks,

-Joshua Hoblitt

--
jhoblitt@mysun.com

----- Original Message -----
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: HTML filtering

> >>>>> "josh" == josh hoblitt <jhoblitt@mysun.com> writes:
> 
> josh> I discovered something interesting: HTTP:Daemon doesn't work 
> correctlyjosh> on perl 5.6.1/solaris 8.  The object will allow one 
> connection then die
> josh> on the next attempt to call accept.  I tried setting some
> josh> IO::Socket::Inet options with no luck.  The problem is fairly 
> lowleveljosh> as the OS is still holding the socket open for 
> sometime after the code
> josh> exits.  (I verified that the code still works on perl 
> 5.6.1/linux 2.4)
> 
> One of my programs (the preforking server) broke under some OS
> releases because flock() on the master socket isn't supported
> properly.  I had to switch to including __END__ in the program and
> then flocking DATA in the same way (a cheap trick, but effective :).
> 
> -- 
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 
> 777 0095
> <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:" 
> target="l">http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>Perl/Unix/security 
> consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl 
> training!TIMTOWTDI
> 

TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Thu Jul 18 20:06:55 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <dc02c540.c540dc02@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207181755110.842-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, josh hoblitt wrote:

> I discovered something interesting: HTTP:Daemon doesn't work correctly
> on perl 5.6.1/solaris 8.  The object will allow one connection then die
> on the next attempt to call accept.  I tried setting some
> IO::Socket::Inet options with no luck.  The problem is fairly lowlevel
> as the OS is still holding the socket open for sometime after the code
> exits.  (I verified that the code still works on perl 5.6.1/linux 2.4)
> 
> Anyone have a solaris 8 box to try and replicate the issue?

It just so happens that I have a Blade 100 lying around. I was trying to
install OpenBSD on it yesterday (just for yucks). However, it was getting on
11PM when I finally realize this [and anyone who read my initial analysis of
the self reproducing sprial code can attest to the fact that I am not at my
sharpest that late at night ;-) ].

If you still want to try a Solaris 8 box, I can hook mine back up and give it
a go.

-- Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From jhoblitt at mysun.com  Thu Jul 18 23:10:11 2002
From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
Message-ID: <131c3136a2.136a2131c3@mysun.com>


> 
> If you still want to try a Solaris 8 box, I can hook mine back up 
> and give it
> a go.
> 

That would be great - I upgraded to perl 5.8.0 this morning (saw the
announcement on p5p) and it has the same behavior.  I suspect this is
something do with Sun's c libs.

The code I "copied" from merlyn is here:

http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/WebTechniques/col11.html

-J

TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Thu Jul 18 23:21:06 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: HTML filtering
In-Reply-To: <131c3136a2.136a2131c3@mysun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207182114470.8662-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, josh hoblitt wrote:

> > If you still want to try a Solaris 8 box, I can hook mine back up 
> > and give it a go.
> 
> That would be great - I upgraded to perl 5.8.0 this morning (saw the
> announcement on p5p) and it has the same behavior.  I suspect this is
> something do with Sun's c libs.
> 
> The code I "copied" from merlyn is here:
> 
> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/WebTechniques/col11.html

I by this I assume that you didn't mod the code (or at least that modding the
code is not necessary to reproduce the problem). Anyways, the box is at a
friends (and not network accessible at the momement), so I'll have to get in
touch with him and get in back online (after work, tomorrow, in all
likelyhood).

-- Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Fri Jul 19 01:35:15 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Perl 5.8.0 Released
Message-ID: <20020719063514.GE27503@eli.net>

For the full announcement and download locations, see                                                                                 http://dev.perl.org/perl5/news/2002/07/18/580ann/   

Wuv,
Woshua

TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Fri Jul 19 16:16:25 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:39 2004
Subject: 5.8 threads
Message-ID: <20020719141625.A27293@gblx.net>

	Anyone had a chance to use them extensively? Are they usably
stable?

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Fri Jul 19 16:28:37 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: 5.8 threads
In-Reply-To: <20020719141625.A27293@gblx.net>
References: <20020719141625.A27293@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <20020719212836.GN6127@eli.net>

On (Fri, Jul 19 14:16), Austin Schutz wrote:
> 	Anyone had a chance to use them extensively? Are they usably
> stable?

Well, all the tests passed when I installed 580. The rumors running
around indicate that they are, indeed, stable.

For info, see `perldoc perlthrtut`

See also http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/06/11/threads.html , Artur's
article on writing thread-safe modules.

Maybe this helped?
Joshua
TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Fri Jul 19 20:29:26 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
Message-ID: <002a01c22f8c$e373cfe0$5b86fc83@archer>

I'm using Data::Dumper to save and restore objects.

Here is my RestoreFromFile function.

sub RestoreFromFile($){
        my ($filename,$tmp,$VAR1);
        $filename=shift;
        $tmp="";
        open(INFILE, "$filename");
        while(<INFILE>){
                $tmp.=$_;
        }
        eval $tmp;
        return $VAR1; # returns a reference to an object
# Why does Data::Dumper format the dump so nicely?  
# I'm going to have to strip out all the newlines before writing to make this more useful
}


my $tmp = RestoreFromFile("objectfile");

I now have a pointer to my object($tmp) but how do I typedef it or anothr variable to the right object type?
$tmp->ObjectMethod() doesn't work, it thinks I'm trying to invoke a method of a scalar (the reference) not the object type.

Jason White

P.S.  There has to be a better serialization strategy, doesn't there?

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From jasona at inetarena.com  Fri Jul 19 23:42:22 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Data::Dumper
Message-ID: <004e01c22fa7$d751c760$5b86fc83@archer>

Alright, its probably just my ignorance, but Data::Dumper is crap.
Its a great idea.  I even find it acceptable as a method, however, I cannot get it to work.
The darned eval returns a blessed reference and every time I try to access a method of a read object, I get "can't do some damned thing on unblessed reference."

ref($VAR1) is scalar
ref($$VAR1) is MyObjectType
ref($$$VAR1) is some non-scalar error.

I can't access this at any level I don't know how to typedef it to my object type (if that's even the problem).

I can't find one solid example of writing an object to file, reading that same object back into memmory, and accessing it.
I don't want a pointer to data I can't access, I want my object back.

Since I'm not dealing with quantaties of objects here (no more than 10-12 at a time) I'm going to make some wimpy ->To_XML / ->From_XML  or ->ToConfigGeneral / -> FromConfigGeneral functions and do it that way.  I would still like to use Data::Dumper as I think it is a better model and I hate to think I resorted to an XML parser because I couldn't make a common module work.

Jason White
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From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Sat Jul 20 02:44:30 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
In-Reply-To: <002a01c22f8c$e373cfe0$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207192357580.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Jason White wrote:

> I'm using Data::Dumper to save and restore objects.

Didn't you see what Randal wrote to you about doing this? If you don't
want to follow his advice, that's your right. But by doing so, you're
implying that you have a good reason for ignoring Randal's suggestions.

> sub RestoreFromFile($){
>         my ($filename,$tmp,$VAR1);
>         $filename=shift;
>         $tmp="";
>         open(INFILE, "$filename");

I'm sure that you put those quote marks in there because you wanted to
exercise your typing fingers. So why not get even more exercise by pushing
the backspace key after you typed them? :-)  And it sure looks like you're
not checking the return value from open(). Hmmm.

>         while(<INFILE>){
>                 $tmp.=$_;
>         }
>         eval $tmp;

And you should check the result of $@ after an eval(), too, if you really
must use eval. But what you're doing here looks a lot like the do()
builtin. Right?

>         return $VAR1; # returns a reference to an object
> # Why does Data::Dumper format the dump so nicely?

Randal addressed that question in his earlier message. If you've misplaced
it, I could send you a copy. :-)

In the hope that it'll get you back on track, here's the executive summary
of Randal's message:

    use Storable;

Happy coding!

--Tom Phoenix


TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Sat Jul 20 03:00:46 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
In-Reply-To: <002a01c22f8c$e373cfe0$5b86fc83@archer>
References: <002a01c22f8c$e373cfe0$5b86fc83@archer>
Message-ID: <20020720080046.GG27503@eli.net>

You're making things too hard on yourself. Just require the file.

File: test.pl

  #!/usr/bin/perl -w
	
  use strict;

  our $VAR1;
  require "stored.pl";
  print $VAR1;

  exit;

File: stored.pl
$VAR1 = [
          [
            'a',
            'b',
            'c'
          ],
          {
            'foo' => 'bar',
            'baz' => 're',
            'qux' => 'quux'
          }
        ];

That's all there is to it. The nice thing about using require() is 
that you'll get an error if there are compilation problems in the
data file.

-Joshua

PS Data::Dumper will let you name those variables using slightly
different syntax. Say you had two variables named $foo and $bar.
This method takes two arrayrefs. The first one contains the variables
you wish to dump. The second one contains the names of the variables.

ex.

  print Data::Dumper->Dump([$foo, $bar], ['foo', 'bar'])

If you need to dump arrays or hashes, be sure to pass refs instead.

ex.

  print Data::Dumper->Dump([\%hash, \@array], ['hash', 'array']);


PPS There are plenty of serialization methods to choose from. Here
are some that I've used:

1. Storable (freeze() / thaw() & store() / retrieve())

2. YAML (Dump() / Load())

3. XML::Simple (XMLout() / XMLin())


__END__


On (Fri, Jul 19 18:29), Jason White wrote:
> I'm using Data::Dumper to save and restore objects.
> 
> Here is my RestoreFromFile function.
> 
> sub RestoreFromFile($){
>         my ($filename,$tmp,$VAR1);
>         $filename=shift;
>         $tmp="";
>         open(INFILE, "$filename");
>         while(<INFILE>){
>                 $tmp.=$_;
>         }
>         eval $tmp;
>         return $VAR1; # returns a reference to an object
> # Why does Data::Dumper format the dump so nicely?  
> # I'm going to have to strip out all the newlines before writing to make this more useful
> }
> 
> 
> my $tmp = RestoreFromFile("objectfile");
> 
> I now have a pointer to my object($tmp) but how do I typedef it or anothr variable to the right object type?
> $tmp->ObjectMethod() doesn't work, it thinks I'm trying to invoke a method of a scalar (the reference) not the object type.
> 
> Jason White
> 
> P.S.  There has to be a better serialization strategy, doesn't there?
> 
TIMTOWTDI

From joshua_keroes at eli.net  Sat Jul 20 03:14:04 2002
From: joshua_keroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
In-Reply-To: <20020720080046.GG27503@eli.net>
References: <002a01c22f8c$e373cfe0$5b86fc83@archer> <20020720080046.GG27503@eli.net>
Message-ID: <20020720081404.GH27503@eli.net>

On (Sat, Jul 20 01:00), Joshua Keroes wrote:
> You're making things too hard on yourself. Just require the file.
> 
> File: test.pl
> 
>   #!/usr/bin/perl -w
> 	
>   use strict;
> 
>   our $VAR1;
>   require "stored.pl";
>   print $VAR1;

Whoops, this should really be:

File: test.pl

  #!/usr/bin/perl -w

  use strict;
  use Data::Dumper;

  our $VAR1;
  require "stored.pl";
  print Dumper($VAR1);

Please remind yourself not to drink and reply to email. Think of
the children!

-Joshua
TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Mon Jul 22 17:03:47 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason Annin-White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207192357580.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <3D3C8143.4090307@inetarena.com>

Tom,

I didn't recieve the email from Randal.  I haven't gotten many messages 
from the list in a week or so.  I assumed it was because everybody was 
playing with 5.8 but maybe there's a problem someplace.

Jason White


Tom Phoenix wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Jason White wrote:
>
>>I'm using Data::Dumper to save and restore objects.
>>
>
>Didn't you see what Randal wrote to you about doing this? If you don't
>want to follow his advice, that's your right. But by doing so, you're
>implying that you have a good reason for ignoring Randal's suggestions.
>
>>sub RestoreFromFile($){
>>        my ($filename,$tmp,$VAR1);
>>        $filename=shift;
>>        $tmp="";
>>        open(INFILE, "$filename");
>>
>
>I'm sure that you put those quote marks in there because you wanted to
>exercise your typing fingers. So why not get even more exercise by pushing
>the backspace key after you typed them? :-)  And it sure looks like you're
>not checking the return value from open(). Hmmm.
>
>>        while(<INFILE>){
>>                $tmp.=$_;
>>        }
>>        eval $tmp;
>>
>
>And you should check the result of $@ after an eval(), too, if you really
>must use eval. But what you're doing here looks a lot like the do()
>builtin. Right?
>
>>        return $VAR1; # returns a reference to an object
>># Why does Data::Dumper format the dump so nicely?
>>
>
>Randal addressed that question in his earlier message. If you've misplaced
>it, I could send you a copy. :-)
>
>In the hope that it'll get you back on track, here's the executive summary
>of Randal's message:
>
>    use Storable;
>
>Happy coding!
>
>--Tom Phoenix
>
>
>
>



TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Mon Jul 22 17:25:46 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason Annin-White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
Message-ID: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>

I would just like to comment that not everybody in the list here is a 
perl pro and some of us are more adept at other languages, are making an 
effort to learn perl, but don't necesarily have the luxury of taking 
classes or spending hours reading the manuals.  I am doing OOP in perl, 
I'm not just a jack-ass trying to figure out how to make my webpage 
catalouge MP3s.  I appreciate constructive criticism such as quotes not 
being necesary when a scalar contains a string value (even if it doesn't 
come in a constructive format), however, I've gotten emails that were 
simply disparaging.  The code I provide is a functional equivalent and 
is designed to layout what I am trying to accomplish without revealing 
intellectual property which I do not have the privillege to share. 
 Sometimes it is lacking traps and such, but I am not here to ask about 
those things.

I don't understand why people who obviouly have the answers to my 
strait-forward questions respond with violence and condescention rather 
than taking an equivalent amount of time to be helpful.  This is not a 
stomping ground for the perl elite, it is a place for people like me to 
get help when they need it.  The people doing this know who they are, as 
a helpful reply is always CC'd to the list while the non-helpful ones 
are not.  If you aren't up to the task of helping others, please don't 
reply to their requests for help.

My fondness for perl is based largely on the community.  There are times 
I feel this list is failing that community, not because of a lack in 
information, but because of the way competent coders are treated when 
they ask for the benefit of other's experience.

Jason White


TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Mon Jul 22 16:37:41 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <01bc01c231c8$0269e5f0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

I am not aware of the email that Jason is receiving, but I can definitely
state that I have received some rather nasty email from people who, for
whatever reason, fail to copy it to the list.  Admittedly it can be
difficult to judge intent from an email (which is why I like emoticons :),
but let's try to be civil to one another.  If we want more people to use
Perl, flaming them is not a good way to go about it.

If anyone else experiences a problem, feel free to forward the offending
email to me and I can try to moderate things.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Annin-White" <jasona@inetarena.com>
To: "Portland Perl Mongers" <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 3:25 PM
Subject: Mail list predators


> I would just like to comment that not everybody in the list here is a
> perl pro and some of us are more adept at other languages, are making an
> effort to learn perl, but don't necesarily have the luxury of taking
> classes or spending hours reading the manuals.  I am doing OOP in perl,
> I'm not just a jack-ass trying to figure out how to make my webpage
> catalouge MP3s.  I appreciate constructive criticism such as quotes not
> being necesary when a scalar contains a string value (even if it doesn't
> come in a constructive format), however, I've gotten emails that were
> simply disparaging.  The code I provide is a functional equivalent and
> is designed to layout what I am trying to accomplish without revealing
> intellectual property which I do not have the privillege to share.
>  Sometimes it is lacking traps and such, but I am not here to ask about
> those things.
>
> I don't understand why people who obviouly have the answers to my
> strait-forward questions respond with violence and condescention rather
> than taking an equivalent amount of time to be helpful.  This is not a
> stomping ground for the perl elite, it is a place for people like me to
> get help when they need it.  The people doing this know who they are, as
> a helpful reply is always CC'd to the list while the non-helpful ones
> are not.  If you aren't up to the task of helping others, please don't
> reply to their requests for help.
>
> My fondness for perl is based largely on the community.  There are times
> I feel this list is failing that community, not because of a lack in
> information, but because of the way competent coders are treated when
> they ask for the benefit of other's experience.
>
> Jason White
>
>
> TIMTOWTDI
>

TIMTOWTDI

From rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com  Mon Jul 22 16:43:22 2002
From: rb-pdx-pm at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object Reference
In-Reply-To: <3D3C8143.4090307@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0207221442050.25531-100000@blue.stonehenge.com>

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jason Annin-White wrote:

> I didn't recieve the email from Randal.  I haven't gotten many messages
> from the list in a week or so.  I assumed it was because everybody was
> playing with 5.8 but maybe there's a problem someplace.

I can't say about the problem, but you should get this twice (once from
the list and once by direct mail). Let us know if you don't get it at all.
:-)

Here's what Randal wrote. Enjoy!

--Tom

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Jul 18 01:32:09 2002
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1091595940.14672.pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> What is the best method to read and write objects from file?
Jason> Should I serialize the object?  I've heard Data::Dumper
Jason> mentioned for saving hashes, is it good for this purpose as
Jason> well?

Data::Dumper does too much work, making Perl code on the way out, and
then having to eval it on the way in.

My favorite is Storable, now part of the Perl core, but easily found
in the CPAN for older Perls.

Also look into Tie::MLDBM, which gives an indexed way to partition a
file, using Storable automatically to store and retrieve complex
objects.

If you want something more interesting, look at Tangram, which
provides an object to relational-database mapping.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
TIMTOWTDI


TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Mon Jul 22 17:46:55 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
In-Reply-To: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Annin-White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> some of us are [...] are making an effort to learn perl, but
Jason> don't necesarily have the luxury of taking classes or spending
Jason> hours reading the manuals.

One way to look at "live" help (especially of the free variety, such
as this list, IRC, usenet, etc) is that we can help you reduce those
hours to minutes.  There's a huge difference between:

   "Please tell me how to do X, I'm too hurried to read the manual"

and

   "Where can I find out more about X?  I've read the Y, Z, and T
   manual pages, and they seem close, but not quite.  Here's what I've
   tried so far ... and it still doesn't work".

If nothing else, the latter shows that you have tried to help yourself
(and just need that last nudge over the crest of the hill) vs.
expecting someone to lift you the whole way.

In this particular case, I belive it was a miscommunication that
sparked the worst of it (see below).

Jason> I don't understand why people who obviouly have the answers to
Jason> my strait-forward questions respond with violence and
Jason> condescention rather than taking an equivalent amount of time
Jason> to be helpful.  

It's a variant on the fish fable:

   Give someone a fish, and they eat for a day;
   Teach someone to fish, and they eat for a lifetime.

In this case, if we just gave you the fish, the odds are that you
would be back tomorrow with another question; or maybe you just had a
one-time use for perl, and would wander off after we did your work for
you.

This can lead to bitterness and burnout on the part of the "perl
elite".

Jason> This is not a stomping ground for the perl elite, it is a place
Jason> for people like me to get help when they need it.

It's also a place for the "perl elite" to hang out and visit with each
other and share insights.  There's a reason that FAQ lists are so
common -- the wizards get tired of answering the same thing over and
over again.

Put another way, the "perl elite" ("perlite?") would like to get
something out of most of these exchanges: anything from a simple warm
fuzzy from helping someone out, to reputation building, to learning
new techniques.  Having someone ask for help, then ignore it and ask
again, pretty much kills all of these, and there's no motivation left
(except maybe for people venting, which I agree is poor form).

Would you rather get your hand held by wizards when you're first
getting started (and have them be burned out when you really need
help)?  Or would you prefer to be put off a little at the beginning,
so that they're available for deeper questions?

Jason> If you aren't up to the task of helping others, please don't
Jason> reply to their requests for help.

Agreed.

Jason> My fondness for perl is based largely on the community.  

Odd; I like perl because it thinks the way I do.  Or, I think the way
it does.  Either way, my appreciation for the language and its power
and expressiveness predates my involvement with the community.

Jason> There are times I feel this list is failing that community, 

Please don't try guilt trips.  They're very very annoying.

Jason> not because of a lack in information, but because of the way
Jason> competent coders are treated when they ask for the benefit of
Jason> other's experience.

I've largely dropped out of the active Perl community for this
reason.  Even though I know it's only a very few people, they made the
experience of trying to help others deeply poisonous by their very
presence.  It helps to have thick skin in these parts; mine isn't
thick enough, but at least e-mail is mellow enough to not get my blood
pressure up too high.

In my experience, Tom Phoenix is NOT one of these evil people, and
neither is Randal.  In fact, I think of Tom as a kind, patient, and
courteous person on IRC and UseNet.

I expect that his sharp reply was due to his perception that you were
ignoring Randal and trying to do it your way even after Randal told
you a better way.  You asked for the benefit of others' experience,
and then you seemed to ignore it.  Why should they then treat your
next query with any respect, since you don't respect them?  (I'm not
saying that this is how they feel about it, I'm just conjecturing.)

Finally, remember that even the "perl elite" are human, and can get up
on the wrong side of the bed, and have bad days just like the rest of
us.  If you do get grumpy e-mail, just let it go.

t.

p.s. Sorry for being so long-winded about it.  This isn't the first
     time I've hit this phenomenon; when it was happening on the #perl
     channel, I ended up writing this:

        http://slinky.scrye.com/~tkil/perl/pound-perl.html

TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Mon Jul 22 19:14:34 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason Annin-White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO (Typedef problem)
Message-ID: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>

Thank you Randal, I am now using Storable.

I am still pretty much in the same boat however.  I can't find any perl documentation on how to typedef a reference to a custom object.  I have a package which I've named PDX::service. When I store and retrieve an instance of PDX::service I am left with a reference.  I know how to typedef a reference to a scalar, array, or hash, however, I do no know how to typedef the reference to be of type PDX::service.

I've made pitiful attampts such as PDX::service$objref->method() and $$objref->method() to no avail.

ref($objectref) returns main.
ref($$objectref) returns PDX::service

This makes me think that THIS is the appropriate way to access this object:
PDX::service$$objref->method()
This returns no errors, like my other attempts did, however, it retuned no data either.  Does retrive() is it possible that my retrieved object has members but no methods and doesn't "truly" belong to type PDX::service?

Jason White


>From merlyn@stonehenge.com Mon Jul 22 14:41:48 2002
Date: 17 Jul 2002 23:32:09 -0700
From: Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
To: Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com>
Cc: perl <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Subject: Re: Object IO

>>>>>>>>>> "Jason" == Jason White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:
>>>>>

Jason> What is the best method to read and write objects from file?
Jason> Should I serialize the object?  I've heard Data::Dumper
Jason> mentioned for saving hashes, is it good for this purpose as
Jason> well?

Data::Dumper does too much work, making Perl code on the way out, and
then having to eval it on the way in.

My favorite is Storable, now part of the Perl core, but easily found
in the CPAN for older Perls.

Also look into Tie::MLDBM, which gives an indexed way to partition a
file, using Storable automatically to store and retrieve complex
objects.

If you want something more interesting, look at Tangram, which
provides an object to relational-database mapping.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl 
training!
TIMTOWTDI






TIMTOWTDI

From masque at pobox.com  Mon Jul 22 18:41:06 2002
From: masque at pobox.com (Masque)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
In-Reply-To: <gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <7E188C0A-9DCC-11D6-BFE7-000393450866@pobox.com>

On Monday, July 22, 2002, at 06:46 PM, Tkil wrote:

> It's a variant on the fish fable:
>
>    Give someone a fish, and they eat for a day;
>    Teach someone to fish, and they eat for a lifetime.

And the result, if you don't provide a good-faith basis for your help 
request (as Tkil so aptly describes,) is that you will find that people 
use the following variant instead:

Build a man a fire and you keep him warm for the night;
Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Masque.

TIMTOWTDI

From jasona at inetarena.com  Mon Jul 22 20:13:32 2002
From: jasona at inetarena.com (Jason Annin-White)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com> <gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com>

    I have my mail set up to leave messages on the server at several 
locations and I definitley did not receive a response from Randal (Thank 
you Tom for getting it to me).  I was not implicating either Randal or 
Tom in my unpleasant experiences.  I hope it didn't sound that way.

    For the record, I always at least skim the documentation and read 
all of the examples given before I ask questions here unless I'm asking 
advice on which direction I should travel in an unexplored territory 
(such as Which XML modules are worth my time, etc.).  I also perform 
extensive trial and error prior to asking for help.  I had no trouble 
using Data::Dumper to the extent that is was documented.  The trouble I 
was having was beyond or at least to the side of the scope of 
Data::Dumper's documentation.  I also visited literally hundreds of 
websites and read through each of the examples given.  None of them are 
doing what I am trying to do, which is straitforward in most other 
languages.  I can't `perldoc typedef` or `perldoc reference` so I 
dropped in here to ask for help in accessing my restored objects.  

    I didn't come here begging for fish, I came here asking to watch a 
pro fillet one, which is what the sign over the door offers.  I didn't 
realize that I would have to prove how hard I've already tried before my 
questions would be worthy.  I try not to waste your time with frivilous 
details about yadda, yadda, yadda.  I get tired of reading through what 
somebody has already done (especilly since it wasn't working) when I 
recieve hundreds of messages per day.  I formulate a question which is 
strait forward and includes relevent details and code examples.  Easy to 
read, easy to understand, easy to descide if you have the answer or not. 
 I monitor this list as well, if you think you're burnt out by newbie 
requests on this list, you should try joining some of the lists I 
contribute to.  You can't be too burnt out if you have the time and 
energy to line-by-line comment through my email.  You don't teach how to 
fish Tkil, you dangle the fish and say you might teach somebody how 
after you've had sufficient entertainment watching them thrash around 
knee-deep in water.  Get off your high horse and do something useful.

Jason White


Tkil wrote:

>>>>>>"Jason" == Jason Annin-White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>
>Jason> some of us are [...] are making an effort to learn perl, but
>Jason> don't necesarily have the luxury of taking classes or spending
>Jason> hours reading the manuals.
>
>One way to look at "live" help (especially of the free variety, such
>as this list, IRC, usenet, etc) is that we can help you reduce those
>hours to minutes.  There's a huge difference between:
>
>   "Please tell me how to do X, I'm too hurried to read the manual"
>
>and
>
>   "Where can I find out more about X?  I've read the Y, Z, and T
>   manual pages, and they seem close, but not quite.  Here's what I've
>   tried so far ... and it still doesn't work".
>
>If nothing else, the latter shows that you have tried to help yourself
>(and just need that last nudge over the crest of the hill) vs.
>expecting someone to lift you the whole way.
>
>In this particular case, I belive it was a miscommunication that
>sparked the worst of it (see below).
>
>Jason> I don't understand why people who obviouly have the answers to
>Jason> my strait-forward questions respond with violence and
>Jason> condescention rather than taking an equivalent amount of time
>Jason> to be helpful.  
>
>It's a variant on the fish fable:
>
>   Give someone a fish, and they eat for a day;
>   Teach someone to fish, and they eat for a lifetime.
>
>In this case, if we just gave you the fish, the odds are that you
>would be back tomorrow with another question; or maybe you just had a
>one-time use for perl, and would wander off after we did your work for
>you.
>
>This can lead to bitterness and burnout on the part of the "perl
>elite".
>
>Jason> This is not a stomping ground for the perl elite, it is a place
>Jason> for people like me to get help when they need it.
>
>It's also a place for the "perl elite" to hang out and visit with each
>other and share insights.  There's a reason that FAQ lists are so
>common -- the wizards get tired of answering the same thing over and
>over again.
>
>Put another way, the "perl elite" ("perlite?") would like to get
>something out of most of these exchanges: anything from a simple warm
>fuzzy from helping someone out, to reputation building, to learning
>new techniques.  Having someone ask for help, then ignore it and ask
>again, pretty much kills all of these, and there's no motivation left
>(except maybe for people venting, which I agree is poor form).
>
>Would you rather get your hand held by wizards when you're first
>getting started (and have them be burned out when you really need
>help)?  Or would you prefer to be put off a little at the beginning,
>so that they're available for deeper questions?
>
>Jason> If you aren't up to the task of helping others, please don't
>Jason> reply to their requests for help.
>
>Agreed.
>
>Jason> My fondness for perl is based largely on the community.  
>
>Odd; I like perl because it thinks the way I do.  Or, I think the way
>it does.  Either way, my appreciation for the language and its power
>and expressiveness predates my involvement with the community.
>
>Jason> There are times I feel this list is failing that community, 
>
>Please don't try guilt trips.  They're very very annoying.
>
>Jason> not because of a lack in information, but because of the way
>Jason> competent coders are treated when they ask for the benefit of
>Jason> other's experience.
>
>I've largely dropped out of the active Perl community for this
>reason.  Even though I know it's only a very few people, they made the
>experience of trying to help others deeply poisonous by their very
>presence.  It helps to have thick skin in these parts; mine isn't
>thick enough, but at least e-mail is mellow enough to not get my blood
>pressure up too high.
>
>In my experience, Tom Phoenix is NOT one of these evil people, and
>neither is Randal.  In fact, I think of Tom as a kind, patient, and
>courteous person on IRC and UseNet.
>
>I expect that his sharp reply was due to his perception that you were
>ignoring Randal and trying to do it your way even after Randal told
>you a better way.  You asked for the benefit of others' experience,
>and then you seemed to ignore it.  Why should they then treat your
>next query with any respect, since you don't respect them?  (I'm not
>saying that this is how they feel about it, I'm just conjecturing.)
>
>Finally, remember that even the "perl elite" are human, and can get up
>on the wrong side of the bed, and have bad days just like the rest of
>us.  If you do get grumpy e-mail, just let it go.
>
>t.
>
>p.s. Sorry for being so long-winded about it.  This isn't the first
>     time I've hit this phenomenon; when it was happening on the #perl
>     channel, I ended up writing this:
>
>        http://slinky.scrye.com/~tkil/perl/pound-perl.html
>
>
>



TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Mon Jul 22 18:56:28 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO (Typedef problem)
In-Reply-To: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207221654380.1029-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jason Annin-White wrote:

> Thank you Randal, I am now using Storable.
> 
> I am still pretty much in the same boat however.  I can't find any perl
> documentation on how to typedef a reference to a custom object.  I have a
> package which I've named PDX::service. When I store and retrieve an
> instance of PDX::service I am left with a reference.  I know how to
> typedef a reference to a scalar, array, or hash, however, I do no know how
> to typedef the reference to be of type PDX::service.
> 
> I've made pitiful attampts such as PDX::service$objref->method() and
> $$objref->method() to no avail.
> 
> ref($objectref) returns main.
> ref($$objectref) returns PDX::service

$obj = $$objectref ;

... should do the trick. Just like a pointer to a pointer to a struct in C.

-- Nick


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Mon Jul 22 19:09:26 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO (Typedef problem)
In-Reply-To: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>
References: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <gu1mrqp8p.fsf@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Annin-White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

Jason> I am still pretty much in the same boat however.  I can't find
Jason> any perl documentation on how to typedef a reference to a
Jason> custom object.

"typedef" is a concept from C, and there's no particular correlate in
Perl (that I can think of, anyway).  Perhaps you mean "typecast"?

Jason> I have a package which I've named PDX::service. When I store
Jason> and retrieve an instance of PDX::service I am left with a
Jason> reference.  I know how to typedef a reference to a scalar,
Jason> array, or hash, however, I do no know how to typedef the
Jason> reference to be of type PDX::service.

Um ... it already is (or should be) a reference to a PDX::service
object; why do you need to cast it further?

Jason> ref($objectref) returns main.
Jason> ref($$objectref) returns PDX::service

Ah.  It looks like you tried to freeze it using something like:

   my $serialized = freeze \$obj;

Which freezes a reference to a reference, and that's what you get
back.  Since you already have a reference, you don't need the extra
level of indirection; just freeze $obj itself.

Jason> This makes me think that THIS is the appropriate way to access
Jason> this object:

Jason>    PDX::service$$objref->method()

I think that ($$objref)->method() should work... let me try it.  Yup:

| #!/usr/bin/perl -w
| 
| use strict;
| 
| use Storable qw( freeze thaw );
| 
| # ----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 
| package Foo;
| 
| sub new
| {
|     my ($package, $info) = @_;
|     return bless { info => $info };
| }
| 
| sub babble
| {
|     my ($self, $label) = @_;
|     print "$label: I'm a " . ref($self) . ", and I know $self->{info}\n";
| }
| 
| # ----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 
| package main;
| 
| my $foo1 = Foo->new("eeba deeba!");
| $foo1->babble('$foo1');
| 
| my $stored_foo1 = freeze $foo1;
| 
| my $foo2 = thaw $stored_foo1;
| $foo2->babble('$foo2');
| 
| my $stored_foo_ref = freeze \$foo1;
| my $foo3 = thaw $stored_foo_ref;
| print 'ref($foo3)=', ref($foo3), "\n";
| print 'ref($$foo3)=', ref($$foo3), "\n";
| 
| ($$foo3)->babble('$$foo3');
| 
| exit 0;

Which gives us:

| $ ./jason1
| $foo1: I'm a Foo, and I know eeba deeba!
| $foo2: I'm a Foo, and I know eeba deeba!
| ref($foo3)=REF
| ref($$foo3)=Foo
| $$foo3: I'm a Foo, and I know eeba deeba!

Jason> This returns no errors, like my other attempts did, however, it
Jason> retuned no data either.  Does retrive() is it possible that my
Jason> retrieved object has members but no methods and doesn't "truly"
Jason> belong to type PDX::service?

What you got back was a reference to an object.  If you dereference it
once, you have just the object, and you can do normal method calls on
it.

Does this clear it up?

t.

TIMTOWTDI

From plumpy at krimedawg.org  Mon Jul 22 19:13:02 2002
From: plumpy at krimedawg.org (Michael P)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO (Typedef problem)
In-Reply-To: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207221701180.3617-100000@mcgruff.krimedawg.org>

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jason Annin-White wrote:

> I am still pretty much in the same boat however.  I can't find any perl
> documentation on how to typedef a reference to a custom object.

You 'bless' it.  'perldoc -f bless'.  But, see below.

> ref($objectref) returns main.
> ref($$objectref) returns PDX::service

I mean this, of course, in the least condescending way possible: I think
you're doing it wrong.  The reference you get back from Storable should
already be blessed into the package it was originally in.  You shouldn't
have to do anything special to it.

See the sample code below.

> This makes me think that THIS is the appropriate way to access this object:
> PDX::service$$objref->method()

$$objectref->method() might work.  It's hard to say, though, depending on
what other magic you're doing elsewhere.

Here's some extremely pared-down code that might help you with basic
Storable usage:

#!/usr/bin/perl

use strict;
use Storable;

my $created = PDXPM->new();
$created->set_name("Jason");
$created->hello();
# Save this newly created object in the file "pdxpm.store".
store($created, "pdxpm.store");

# Retrieve the data out of the file.
my $loaded = retrieve("pdxpm.store");
$loaded->hello();

# Object definitions...
package PDXPM;

sub new {
  my $proto = shift;
  return bless({}, ref($proto) || $proto);
}

sub set_name {
  my $self = shift;
  $self->{_name} = shift;
}

sub get_name {
  my $self = shift;
  return $self->{_name};
}

sub hello {
  my $self = shift;
  print "Hello, ", $self->get_name(), "!\n";
}

TIMTOWTDI

From plumpy at krimedawg.org  Mon Jul 22 19:46:34 2002
From: plumpy at krimedawg.org (Michael P)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Object IO (Typedef problem)
In-Reply-To: <3D3C9FEA.5030103@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207221736440.3680-100000@mcgruff.krimedawg.org>

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jason Annin-White wrote:

> I know how to typedef a reference to a scalar, array, or hash, however,
> I do no know how to typedef the reference to be of type PDX::service.

By the way, just for clarification, you're talking about two different
things here.

In perl, you can have references to scalars, arrays, hashes, code or
globs.  You can then dereference them to get the original value.

"objects" (like PDX::service), however, are not a seperate type.  Your
PDX::service "object"  is not actually its own type, but rather is itself
a reference (99% of the time it's a reference to hash, but it could also
be a reference to a scalar, array, or anything else).  So on most objects,
you can treat them as hashrefs and do things like $object->{barf} = "dog";

Your PDX::service object just contains some magic to allow you to call
methods on it.  You create that magic when you use the bless() function.
Using bless() does NOT change the fact that you still have a hashref.  It
just adds some special magic to the hashref that allows you to say
$object->method();

I don't know if that helps clear up any confusion or not.  Anyway, the
point is: there are no typedefs.

TIMTOWTDI

From lemming at attbi.com  Mon Jul 22 19:56:18 2002
From: lemming at attbi.com (Mark Morgan)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com> <gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com> <3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <3D3CA9B2.10209@attbi.com>

Jason Annin-White wrote:
>    I have my mail set up to leave messages on the server at several 
> locations and I definitley did not receive a response from Randal (Thank 
> you Tom for getting it to me).  I was not implicating either Randal or 
> Tom in my unpleasant experiences.  I hope it didn't sound that way.

^^^That was nice.

<Rest of email snipped>

For the record, I didn't read the original thread, but I just checked 
the new thread.
I didn't think Tkil came off that abrasive.  Fairly direct and not that 
bad considering the message he answered.  We're all volunteers and 
sometimes life gets in the way of helping out here.

Let's not get into a flame fest.  Take sometime to think how a message 
will come across before sending.

Back to life for me, Mark

TIMTOWTDI

From tkil at scrye.com  Mon Jul 22 20:04:41 2002
From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
In-Reply-To: <3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com>
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>
	<gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>
	<3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com>
Message-ID: <15676.43945.403461.307466@brand.scrye.com>

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Annin-White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes:

[out of order, but this needed to be answered first.]

Jason> I monitor this list as well, if you think you're burnt out by
Jason> newbie requests on this list, you should try joining some of
Jason> the lists I contribute to.

*shrug* I've put in my time on usenet and irc.  While I don't do those
anymore, I do help out on various Perl and Linux lists.  I wouldn't
refer to myself as a wizard, but I do have relatively deep knowledge
of a few fields.  When a hard question in one of those fields comes
up, I try to contribute usefully.

Jason> You can't be too burnt out if you have the time and energy to
Jason> line-by-line comment through my email.

Believe it or not, I was trying to be courteous.  I happen to find the
point-by-point style much more useful than having the original and
response in two different chunks; the interleaved style used to be the
majority, until various MUAs and newsreaders started changing their
default behavior.

Jason> You don't teach how to fish Tkil, you dangle the fish and say
Jason> you might teach somebody how after you've had sufficient
Jason> entertainment watching them thrash around knee-deep in water.
Jason> Get off your high horse and do something useful.

Hm.  I disagree with this assessment, and I suspect that some of the
people who knew me back when I had more energy would also disagree.

[back to the original order]

Jason> I was not implicating either Randal or Tom in my unpleasant
Jason> experiences.  I hope it didn't sound that way.

I apologize for coming to this erroneous conclusion; Tom's response
was the only one I saw publicly, and it did sound a bit sharp to me
(particularly given that Tom is, in my experience, very patient and
mellow with people).  Sorry about that.

Jason> None of them are doing what I am trying to do, which is
Jason> straitforward in most other languages.  

I think that this touches very close to what set me off with some of
your questions:

 - They don't do *exactly* what you're doing.  Well, what can you
   generalize from them?  What small-scale experiments did you run, to
   try to determine the behavior of perl, to verify your assumptions,
   try different solutions to smaller and more focused problems?

   The sample program I included in a different message is the sort of
   small-scale experiment that I'm referring to.

 - "straightforward in most other languages".  That's a loaded phrase;
   which other languages are you referring to?  Object serialization
   is hardly trivial in traditional 3rd-gen languages (C, C++); Java
   has it, and it is indeed straightforward there.  Visual Basic?
   Lisp?  Prolog?  Python (which does have a very nice freeze/thaw
   system, IIRC).  Assembly?  Ha.  :)

   And when you say straightforward, does that take into account
   portability between architectures, little-/big-endian, network byte
   order, end-of-stream signaling, database persistence...?

In this instance, it seems that the fundamental issue (after Randal
steered you towards Storable as being superior to Data::Dumper) was an
unclear understanding of references and objects in perl.  That's
nothing to be ashamed about -- but without us asking some questions
that can sound hard at times, we never would have found out where your
code was really having the problem.

Jason> I can't `perldoc typedef` or `perldoc reference` so I dropped
Jason> in here to ask for help in accessing my restored objects.

perlref was probably the one you were looking for (and also perlobj;
there are corresponding tutorials, "perlreftut" and "perltoot").
These are listed if you do "perldoc perl".

Jason> I didn't come here begging for fish, I came here asking to
Jason> watch a pro fillet one, which is what the sign over the door
Jason> offers.

To continue this analogy, I saw you asking "how do i filet this nice
bit of trout here?"  Randal suggested "lengthwise"; due to a mis-
communication, you went ahead cutting it straight across, then asked
us how to remove the bones.

Jason> I get tired of reading through what somebody has already done
Jason> (especilly since it wasn't working) 

Ah, but the history of what you've tried (as well as an idea of what
your overall comfort level is) will help us figure out what the real
question is.  Most importantly, it tells us *what* you're trying to
do, not *how* you're trying to do it.  (The former is obviously much
more valuable than the latter, since the latter isn't working -- would
you rather help someone by understanding their real needs, or by
reverse-engineering code that you know isn't really doing what they
want anyway?)

There's a phrase we used on the IRC channel: "the X-Y problem":

    They ask how to do X, but that's because they really want to do Y
    but think X will get them there

Jason> when I recieve hundreds of messages per day.

Might I suggest a better mail-reading setup?  I see about 500 messages
a day (as well as following linux-kernel on a private newsgroup feed,
so that's another 150-ish per day).  A combination of procmail and a
newsreader does wonders for dealing with high volumes of mail.

Jason> I formulate a question which is strait forward and includes
Jason> relevent details and code examples.  Easy to read, easy to
Jason> understand, easy to descide if you have the answer or not.

At least one of your replies clarified things (the bit about trying to
preserve the format/structure of an existing codebase, and the
implicit desire to alter the structure of that code as little as
possible while adding the necessary functionality).  That was
completely missing in the original post.

Anyway.  I didn't mean to pick on you in particular; I was just trying
to explain why some people tend to fly off the handle at some
questions, and maybe some ideas that you could incorporate to get
better responses (both less hostile and more informative).  If you are
based in the PDX area and are interested, maybe I can stand you a pint
the next time I'm in the area.

Thanks,
t.
TIMTOWTDI

From lemming at attbi.com  Mon Jul 22 23:25:34 2002
From: lemming at attbi.com (Mark Morgan)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list fishing
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>	<gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>	<3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com> <15676.43945.403461.307466@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <3D3CDABE.5080902@attbi.com>

Tkil wrote:
>>>>>>"Jason" == Jason Annin-White <jasona@inetarena.com> writes
> Jason> I didn't come here begging for fish, I came here asking to
> Jason> watch a pro fillet one, which is what the sign over the door
> Jason> offers.
> 
> To continue this analogy, I saw you asking "how do i filet this nice
> bit of trout here?"  Randal suggested "lengthwise"; due to a mis-
> communication, you went ahead cutting it straight across, then asked
> us how to remove the bones.

Well, if we're talking fish:
http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=85541



TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 23 10:17:25 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: STOP:  Re: Mail list fishing
References: <3D3C866A.7050001@inetarena.com>	<gy9c3qt28.fsf@brand.scrye.com>	<3D3CADBC.1040700@inetarena.com> <15676.43945.403461.307466@brand.scrye.com> <3D3CDABE.5080902@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <021e01c2325c$0d5faff0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

Okay everyone, some of the comments in this thread have crossed the line.
End this thread.

--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!

TIMTOWTDI

From masque at pobox.com  Tue Jul 23 12:20:00 2002
From: masque at pobox.com (Masque)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: STOP:  Re: Mail list fishing
In-Reply-To: <021e01c2325c$0d5faff0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com>

On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 11:17 AM, Curtis Poe wrote:

> Okay everyone, some of the comments in this thread have crossed the 
> line.
> End this thread.

Indeed.  Especially the light-hearted link to the fish dinner recipe.  
Not only did it lighten the discussion, it made me hungry.

This will not be tolerated.

Masque.

TIMTOWTDI

From masque at pobox.com  Tue Jul 23 12:07:15 2002
From: masque at pobox.com (Masque)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mail list predators
In-Reply-To: <15676.43945.403461.307466@brand.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <A3666542-9E5E-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com>

On Monday, July 22, 2002, at 09:04 PM, Tkil wrote:

> Jason> You don't teach how to fish Tkil, you dangle the fish and say
> Jason> you might teach somebody how after you've had sufficient
> Jason> entertainment watching them thrash around knee-deep in water.
> Jason> Get off your high horse and do something useful.
>
> Hm.  I disagree with this assessment, and I suspect that some of the
> people who knew me back when I had more energy would also disagree.

I wholeheartedly disagree with Jason's assessment as well.  Tkil has 
proven to be one of the more helpful (and reasonable) perlers around 
time and time again.

Masque.

TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Tue Jul 23 12:43:48 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: 5.8 threads
In-Reply-To: <20020719212836.GN6127@eli.net>; from joshua_keroes@eli.net on Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 02:28:37PM -0700
References: <20020719141625.A27293@gblx.net> <20020719212836.GN6127@eli.net>
Message-ID: <20020723104348.B4503@gblx.net>

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 02:28:37PM -0700, Joshua Keroes wrote:
> On (Fri, Jul 19 14:16), Austin Schutz wrote:
> > 	Anyone had a chance to use them extensively? Are they usably
> > stable?
> 
> Well, all the tests passed when I installed 580. The rumors running
> around indicate that they are, indeed, stable.
> 

	Was hoping for actual operational experience. Thus
'use them extensively'.

> For info, see `perldoc perlthrtut`
> 
> See also http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/06/11/threads.html , Artur's
> article on writing thread-safe modules.
> 
> Maybe this helped?

	Somewhat. The thread safe article is interesting. I appreciate the
pointers.

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 23 13:34:50 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mailing list etiquette
References: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <02cf01c23277$a2dcedc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

It appears that there needs to be some clarification regarding how to behave
ourselves on this mailing list.  I don't want to be the heavy, but sometimes
that is what is necessary.

Incidentally, I had originally applied to the "mail list fishing" email by
Mark Morgan.  I was referring to some of the personal attacks in the mail
list predators thread.  Sorry if there was any confusion.  Mark's a great
guy and I appreciated his email.  Thanks for pointing that out, masque.

Here's why I wanted the "mail list predators" thread ended:  some of the
comments in the thread were personal attacks.  That's not appropriate.

Even if someone deserves the comments hurled at them, they're out of place
in a public forum.  If someone must chip away at someone else, they can do
so privately without copying it to the list.  We don't need public spats.
This is a common problem with virtually community, so all I'm asking is that
we remain civil to one another in public.

Here are my ad-hoc rules for posting (as you can tell, I'm making this up as
I go along).  Note that these are general guidelines and do not necessarily
reflect behavior that I have seen on this list.  This list, for the most
part, has been pretty good.

1.  It's okay to tell someone to RTFM, but the F had better be silent.
Also, a link to where they can R the FM would be nice.  Many people new to
Perl (or to computers in general) are either unaware of the documentation or
don't know where to find it.  Honestly, many people don't even *know* about
"perlthrtut", yet will ask questions answered there.

2.  No profanity directed at another in anger.  I don't necessarily want to
see profanity on the list, but I don't want to censor anyone, either, so
I'll keep my piece -- until someone tells someone else that /^s?he's$/ an
/f[[:alpha:]]{3}ing/ idiot.

3.  No insults.  It's okay to tell me that I wrote a bad piece of code, but
telling me that I'm stupid is out of line (this is just an example).  It may
be true that I'm stupid, but if you must say it, keep it private.

Side note:  while some may find it emotionally satisfying to tell someone
else off in public, it still tends to leave a bad taste in the mouths of
others.  If I tell someone that they're a moron, many might agree with me,
but still think it rude that I say so publicly.  If you don't understand
why, then you're a moron :)  (ooh... I just know I'm going to hear it for
that one).

Please email me *privately* on whether or not you agree with this.  I don't
want a flame-fest.  If enough people feel that the right to insult one
another publicly should be preserved, then I'll relent.

Cheers,
Curtis "Ovid" Poe

TIMTOWTDI

From nforrett at wgz.com  Tue Jul 23 13:36:14 2002
From: nforrett at wgz.com (n/a)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: STOP:  Re: Mail list fishing
In-Reply-To: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207231128560.1043-100000@snafu.wgz.org>

On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 11:17 AM, Curtis Poe wrote:

> Okay everyone, some of the comments in this thread have crossed the 
> line.
> End this thread.

I don't know. The way things have been going, someone is bound to trigger
Godwin's Law pretty soon. ;-)

For those not familiar with Godwin's Law:
  http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

-- Nick 


 ,--< Nick Forrette >--------------------------.
 | e-mail: nforrett@wgz.org                    |
 | www   : http://www.drforehead.net/          |
 `---------------------------------------------'


TIMTOWTDI

From tex at off.org  Tue Jul 23 14:32:37 2002
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: STOP:  Re: Mail list fishing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207231128560.1043-100000@snafu.wgz.org>; from nforrett@wgz.com on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:36:14AM -0700
References: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207231128560.1043-100000@snafu.wgz.org>
Message-ID: <20020723123237.C4503@gblx.net>


	A few brief observations, all IMO:

	Perl's community has a very strong reputation for being severely
abrasive. That has been true in my own experience, and doesn't seem to be
true of other communities, e.g. Python. This holds true for usenet, irc,
perl monks, etc.
	People will make judgements of a group from a very small sampling
of negative data. I have made a point of steering clear of perl monks based
upon my first and only experience, which was quite negative.
	TMTOWTDI means that even though there is usually a well known way
to do something, someone else's method isn't dumb. In fact, it's probably
done in the core modules in an undocumented fashion. Turn down the flame
thrower.

	Aah, I dunno. Where's the beer?

	Austin
TIMTOWTDI

From mikeraz at patch.com  Tue Jul 23 15:49:48 2002
From: mikeraz at patch.com (mikeraz@patch.com)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Mailing list etiquette
In-Reply-To: <02cf01c23277$a2dcedc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>; from cp@onsitetech.com on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:34:50AM -0700
References: <6B1CD982-9E60-11D6-9BD9-000393450866@pobox.com> <02cf01c23277$a2dcedc0$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>
Message-ID: <20020723134948.B12796@patch.com>

On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:34:50AM -0700, Curtis Poe typed:
 
> 2.  No profanity directed at another in anger.  I don't necessarily want to
> see profanity on the list, but I don't want to censor anyone, either, so
> I'll keep my piece -- until someone tells someone else that /^s?he's$/ an
> /f[[:alpha:]]{3}ing/ idiot.

farting?  I know yeasty microbrews contribute to flatulence but . . . 
OT - Oregon Brewers Festival this weekend.  ID me and ID yourself as a pdx-pm
contributor and I'll buy you a sample of something.  
Free Beer as in, well, Free Beer.
 
> 3.  No insults.  It's okay to tell me that I wrote a bad piece of code, but
> telling me that I'm stupid is out of line (this is just an example).  It may
> be true that I'm stupid, but if you must say it, keep it private.

-- 
      Michael Rasmussen  aka  mikeraz
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
 http://www.patch.com/ http://wiki.patch.com/
       http://blog.patch.com/sandbox/

 "They that give up essential liberty to obtain
  temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
		-- Benjamin Franklin 	

   and the fortune cookie says:
Associate with well-mannered persons and your manners will improve.  Run
with decent folk and your own decent instincts will be strengthened.  Keep
the company of bums and you will become a bum.  Hang around with rich people
and you will end by picking up the check and dying broke.
		-- Stanley Walker
TIMTOWTDI

From cp at onsitetech.com  Tue Jul 23 16:04:26 2002
From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:05:40 2004
Subject: Fw: Switching mailing lists
Message-ID: <033201c2328c$87e2e780$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>

Hmm... this apparently didn't go through.  I suspect that's due to the
offense s*u_b*s_c*r_i*b_e word being filtered.  I've replaced that below.

You should be getting your s*u_b*s_c*r_i*b_e email about now.  (/me idly
wonders if the majordomo software is smart enough to parse that word...)
--
Cheers,
Curtis Poe
Senior Programmer
ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
www.onsitetech.com
503-233-1418

Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Poe" <cp@onsitetech.com>
To: "pdx-pm-list" <pdx-pm-list@pm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:27 AM
Subject: Switching mailing lists


> Here's the scoop:  for various reasons, we are switching this mailing list
> from majordomo to mailman.  From the email that I received:
>
> > I'll "mass ********" your current members.  They will all get an email
> > with their password (primarily for ********* stuff).  You will get one
> > too as the list owner.  The mailing address for the list stays the same,
> > but the interface to ***************/*************/admin is web instead
of
> > email.
> >
> > You'll need to change the instructions on your web site for signup (look
> > at austin.pm.org).
>
> Yes, that means you're all going to get an extra email.  Deal with it :)
> For most of us, this change should be completely transparent.
>
> Please note that you should probably be using passwords that aren't
related
> to anything else (you were doing that anyway, right?) as the Web interface
> is not encrypted.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Curtis Poe
> Senior Programmer
> ONSITE! Technology, Inc.
> www.onsitetech.com
> 503-233-1418
>
> Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme!
>

TIMTOWTDI