From markmoon at teleport.com Sun Dec 2 08:43:33 2001 From: markmoon at teleport.com (MarkyMoon) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: December 13th Meeting References: <20011128213023.10693.qmail@web9105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C0A3E12.3B5BF954@teleport.com> Hi all, Just for the sake of the head count I will also be there. The Lucky seems like a fine choice to me BTW. See you all there! Mark Smith -- MarkyMoon -- @a = ("a".."z"," ","-","\n");foreach $b ( 12,0,17,10,24,12,14,14,13,26,8,18,26,0,26, 22,0,13,13,0,27,1,4,26,15,4,17,11,26,7,0, 2,10,4,17) {print $a[$b]};print $a[28]; TIMTOWTDI From MartinSchneider at TNTSoftware.com Mon Dec 3 09:49:45 2001 From: MartinSchneider at TNTSoftware.com (Martin Schneider) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: December 13th Meeting Message-ID: Hi, I also plan on being there.... $wannabes++; Thank you, Martin Schneider > -----Original Message----- > From: MarkyMoon [mailto:markmoon@teleport.com] > Sent: December 02, 2001 6:44 AM > To: poec@yahoo.com > Cc: pdx-pm-list@pm.org; cb@onsitetech.com > Subject: Re: December 13th Meeting > > > Hi all, > > Just for the sake of the head count I will also be there. The Lucky > seems like a fine choice to me BTW. > > See you all there! > > Mark Smith > > -- > MarkyMoon > > -- > > @a = ("a".."z"," ","-","\n");foreach $b ( > 12,0,17,10,24,12,14,14,13,26,8,18,26,0,26, > 22,0,13,13,0,27,1,4,26,15,4,17,11,26,7,0, > 2,10,4,17) {print $a[$b]};print $a[28]; > TIMTOWTDI > TIMTOWTDI From sparksc at hlyw.com Mon Dec 3 10:50:20 2001 From: sparksc at hlyw.com (Chris Sparks) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: December 13th Meeting Message-ID: I also plan on being there... A little late. Chris Sparks TIMTOWTDI From poec at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 10:28:00 2001 From: poec at yahoo.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: December 13th Meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011204162800.40011.qmail@web9106.mail.yahoo.com> Not to spam, but I recall some people asking about Extreme Programming. Ward Cunningham, on of the people who created this is going to be giving a free lecture on this topic tonight at OGI (sorry for the short notice). You can get more information and register for this at http://www.cpd.ogi.edu/coursespecific.asp?pam=840 Even if you have no interest in XP, I highly recommend this for everyone who's having difficulty with the software development process. Incidentally, I have no idea what sort of traffic level most people on this list are comfortable with. I'm trying to limit this primarily to PDX.pm or Perl related info, so the above is a little off-topic, though of interest to many of us here. If you have any strong opinions about the amount or type of traffic on this list, we can discuss this on the 13th, or drop me a line if you won't be there. Cheers, Curtis "Ovid" Poe ===== Senior Programmer Onsite! Technology (http://www.onsitetech.com/) "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com TIMTOWTDI From karic at lclark.edu Tue Dec 11 19:21:42 2001 From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: PERL Sorting References: <007401c17861$afe58520$0500000a@aaron> Message-ID: <3C16B126.270C282C@lclark.edu> Randal-- You're famous!! (Well, more than you already were...) Google has just posted 20 years of USENET archives, and is featuring a number of interesting or amusing posts. http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html Anyway, the "first mention of Star Wars 6" (revenge of the jedi) was posted way, way back in 1982 by our very Randal Schwartz. My favorite comment... "I wish Lucas & Co. would get the thing going a little faster. I can't really imagine waiting until 1997 to see all nine parts of the Star Wars series." Check out the whole post here: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.azure.913 -kari. Kari Chisholm Creative Director for New Media Lewis & Clark College Portland, Oregon USA http://www.lclark.edu TIMTOWTDI From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Dec 12 15:54:22 2001 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:26 2004 Subject: PERL Sorting In-Reply-To: <3C16B126.270C282C@lclark.edu> References: <007401c17861$afe58520$0500000a@aaron> <3C16B126.270C282C@lclark.edu> Message-ID: >>>>> "Kari" == Kari Chisholm writes: Kari> Randal-- Kari> You're famous!! (Well, more than you already were...) heh. Yeah, I saw that. In fact, they wrote me, asking permission to post it. Lots of Perl fans at Google. A more interesting post for them to put up would be: First Security Hole described on Usenet: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=anews.Aazure.595 Kari, are you going to be at the Lucky Lab tomorrow night? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI From karic at lclark.edu Wed Dec 12 18:26:49 2001 From: karic at lclark.edu (Kari Chisholm) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Beer (was: PERL Sorting) References: <007401c17861$afe58520$0500000a@aaron> <3C16B126.270C282C@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <3C17F5C9.E8414FF8@lclark.edu> Yeah, sure, you betcha! I haven't had a chance to get to one of these - but I'll make it to this one. Lucky Lab, 6:30, right? -kari. "Randal L. Schwartz" wrote: > > Kari, are you going to be at the Lucky Lab tomorrow night? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Dec 12 18:30:45 2001 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Beer (was: PERL Sorting) In-Reply-To: <3C17F5C9.E8414FF8@lclark.edu> References: <007401c17861$afe58520$0500000a@aaron> <3C16B126.270C282C@lclark.edu> <3C17F5C9.E8414FF8@lclark.edu> Message-ID: >>>>> "Kari" == Kari Chisholm writes: Kari> Yeah, sure, you betcha! Kari> I haven't had a chance to get to one of these - but I'll make it to Kari> this one. Lucky Lab, 6:30, right? /me quickly changes his personal calendar start time from 7 to 6:30 after looking at portland.pm.org Yes, precisely! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI From jhoblitt at mysun.com Wed Dec 12 20:30:58 2001 From: jhoblitt at mysun.com (josh hoblitt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Beer (was: PERL Sorting) Message-ID: <834e57e206.7e206834e5@mysun.com> /me quickly changes his personal calendar because he flew into Hawaii yesterday Sorry I can't be there! Can we have the next meeting on the big island? -Joshua Hoblitt -- jhoblitt@mysun.com ----- Original Message ----- From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Beer (was: PERL Sorting) > >>>>> "Kari" == Kari Chisholm writes: > > Kari> Yeah, sure, you betcha! > > Kari> I haven't had a chance to get to one of these - but I'll > make it to > Kari> this one. Lucky Lab, 6:30, right? > > /me quickly changes his personal calendar start time from 7 to > 6:30 after looking at portland.pm.org > > Yes, precisely! > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 > 777 0095 > target="l">http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>Perl/Unix/security > consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment > Perl training! > TIMTOWTDI > TIMTOWTDI From joe at joppegaard.com Fri Dec 14 02:01:31 2001 From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucky's was a blast tonight. It was nice meeting you all. Malia, although lost most of the time, said she also enjoyed what she understood, heh. (We're both musicians by heart, although I seek computer science wisdom as another passion.) Since I was the first to leave, was the meeting on January 9th (Wednesday) setup for sure at any specific location, or is that still up in the air? -- -Joe Oppegaard http://joppegaard.com TIMTOWTDI From cp at onsitetech.com Fri Dec 14 10:16:29 2001 From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's References: Message-ID: <005d01c184ba$b01f4f70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> The meeting is tentative, but I think it will work. We're still nailing down the details and we don't have a venue yet, but we're working on it. As soon as I have concrete info, I'll send it to the list. I'm glad you could make it. I was great meeting you. -- Cheers, Curtis Poe Senior Programmer ONSITE! Technology www.onsitetech.com 503.233.1418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Oppegaard" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:01 AM Subject: Lucky's > Lucky's was a blast tonight. It was nice meeting you all. Malia, although > lost most of the time, said she also enjoyed what she understood, heh. > (We're both musicians by heart, although I seek computer science wisdom as > another passion.) > > Since I was the first to leave, was the meeting on January 9th (Wednesday) > setup for sure at any specific location, or is that still up in the air? > > -- > -Joe Oppegaard > http://joppegaard.com > > > TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI From eckroth at awesomenet.net Fri Dec 14 11:27:53 2001 From: eckroth at awesomenet.net (eckroth@awesomenet.net) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Website Message-ID: First, I'll introduce myself: 18, living in Houston, will be in Portland by summer next year. Have been working with perl for a little while, mostly cgi stuff... On the pdx website, it said website content and design is desired. I'll volunteer if I may... Btw, I feel quite honored that when I get to Portland I'll be in a perl group with Ovid... I liked that dot star node, and the use CGI rants :) -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . TIMTOWTDI From randall_burns at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 12:05:30 2001 From: randall_burns at hotmail.com (Randall Burns) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's References: <005d01c184ba$b01f4f70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Message-ID: Just my suggestion here: Lucky's is pretty accessible once someone finds it. If it were possible to get the private room there, it would be a fine place for a technical meeting. RJB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Poe" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Lucky's > The meeting is tentative, but I think it will work. We're still nailing > down the details and we don't have a venue yet, but we're working on it. > > As soon as I have concrete info, I'll send it to the list. > > I'm glad you could make it. I was great meeting you. > > -- > Cheers, > Curtis Poe > Senior Programmer > ONSITE! Technology > www.onsitetech.com > 503.233.1418 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Oppegaard" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:01 AM > Subject: Lucky's > > > > Lucky's was a blast tonight. It was nice meeting you all. Malia, although > > lost most of the time, said she also enjoyed what she understood, heh. > > (We're both musicians by heart, although I seek computer science wisdom as > > another passion.) > > > > Since I was the first to leave, was the meeting on January 9th (Wednesday) > > setup for sure at any specific location, or is that still up in the air? > > > > -- > > -Joe Oppegaard > > http://joppegaard.com > > > > > > TIMTOWTDI > > TIMTOWTDI > TIMTOWTDI From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Dec 14 12:27:54 2001 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's In-Reply-To: References: <005d01c184ba$b01f4f70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Randall" == Randall Burns writes: Randall> Lucky's is pretty accessible once someone finds it. If it Randall> were possible to get the private room there, it would be a Randall> fine place for a technical meeting. Yes, and the parking is better than Broadway McMs. Anything outside the downtown/NW/lloyd-center core is preferred. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI From mikeraz at patch.com Fri Dec 14 13:14:12 2001 From: mikeraz at patch.com (mikeraz@patch.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's In-Reply-To: <005d01c184ba$b01f4f70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com>; from cp@onsitetech.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 08:16:29AM -0800 References: <005d01c184ba$b01f4f70$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Message-ID: <20011214111412.C7203@patch.com> I think the Lab (call it Lucky's if you must) has better food than It's A Beautiful Pizza and the beer is a toss up. We can get the room, it's usually not taken on a weeknight. Plus you can then honestly go to work the next day and proclaim "I spent four hours in an intense Lab session with the Perl momgrels last night." and "We got to the bottom of the glass on several subjects." or (my favorite from when we did it at US Bank) "We need to have an off site Lab session to discuss some technical issues. Boss, the team will be out next Thursday from 3:00 on." Very good to meet those of you that I did last night. -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin But keep in mind: As long as war is regarded as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular. -- Oscar Wilde, "Intentions" TIMTOWTDI From mikeraz at patch.com Fri Dec 14 13:28:30 2001 From: mikeraz at patch.com (mikeraz@patch.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: A better way . . . Message-ID: <20011214112830.D7203@patch.com> On another list someone said: > I'm hacking on a script... and in that script, there's a list of > services that looks like this: > >SERVICES="mysql postgresql bind9 jabber nfs-kernel-server nfs-user-server \ > samba apache ssh ntp inetd exim sendmail" > > I'm the type of pedantic individual who likes lists like that to be > sorted in alphabetical order, so here's what I did[1]: > > [all of his emacs buffer opening, and lisp example deleted] And someone replied with: > (From the start of the line in command mode) > > "adf" <--- Delete until a " and stuff it into buffer a > $"bx <--- Go to the end of the line and delete the other ", > save in buffer b > ".!perl -pe 'tr/ /\n/;' | sort | perl -pe 'tr/\n/ /;' > <--- sort the line using sort. > ^"aP <--- put the leading stuff back > $"bp <--- put the trailing stuff back > > Someone out there will know how to do this without deleting the leading > and trailing stuff with a mark or something. To which I replied: Why yes, someone would: :.!perl -ne '(@i)=split /\"/; (@w)=split / /, $i[1]; print "$i[0]\"", (join " ", sort @w), "\"";' or :.! # send current line to perl -ne ' #perl treating the following string as the contents of a while(<>){ ... } loop (@i)=split /\"/; # cut the line up based on quotes (@w)=split / /, $i[1]; # cut the stuff up between the quotes based on spaces print "$i[0]\"", # print the begining of the line and the opening quote (join " ", sort @w), # and the sorted space reinserted data "\"";' # and the closing quote So Real Perl People, what is a better way to do this? [Disclaimer, the first time I did this I left out the join ...] but that's what 'u' is for in vi.] And as a follow up I attempted to (vi'ism here) visually select the text to sort and then :'<,'>!perl -ne '(@w)=split; print join " ", sort @w;' Which would cause: SERVICES="mysql postgresql bind9 jabber nfs-kernel-server nfs-user-server samba apache ssh ntp inetd exim sendmail" to become: SERVICES="mysql apache bind9 exim inetd jabber nfs-kernel-server nfs-user-server ntp postgresql samba sendmail" ssh What? The first element isn't sorted and (the huge puzzler) the last element is somehow transmuted to outside the " marks, which is outside the selected range. ??? And yes, I repeated the operation while making sure the " was not part of the range. I'm assuming that vi is (somehow/why) including the full non-white space region to the end. And insight to what's going on with this? -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin But keep in mind: I call them as I see them. If I can't see them, I make them up. -- Biff Barf TIMTOWTDI From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Dec 14 13:49:12 2001 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: A better way . . . In-Reply-To: <20011214112830.D7203@patch.com> References: <20011214112830.D7203@patch.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "mikeraz" == mikeraz writes: mikeraz> To which I replied: mikeraz> Why yes, someone would: mikeraz> :.!perl -ne '(@i)=split /\"/; (@w)=split / /, $i[1]; print "$i[0]\"", (join " ", sort @w), "\"";' mikeraz> or mikeraz> :.! # send current line to mikeraz> perl -ne ' #perl treating the following string as the contents of a while(<>){ ... } loop mikeraz> (@i)=split /\"/; # cut the line up based on quotes mikeraz> (@w)=split / /, $i[1]; # cut the stuff up between the quotes based on spaces mikeraz> print "$i[0]\"", # print the begining of the line and the opening quote mikeraz> (join " ", sort @w), # and the sorted space reinserted data mikeraz> "\"";' # and the closing quote mikeraz> So Real Perl People, what is a better way to do this? :.!perl -pe '$x = $_ =~ s/^(\w+)="// and $f = $1 and $x =~ s/"\s*$// and @w = sort split " ", $x and s/.*/$f="@w"/' This sorts the words, and doesn't change the string if something unexpected is on the line. mikeraz> :'<,'>!perl -ne '(@w)=split; print join " ", sort @w;' mikeraz> Which would cause: mikeraz> SERVICES="mysql postgresql bind9 jabber nfs-kernel-server nfs-user-server samba apache ssh ntp inetd exim sendmail" mikeraz> to become: mikeraz> SERVICES="mysql apache bind9 exim inetd jabber nfs-kernel-server nfs-user-server ntp postgresql samba sendmail" ssh You sorted the pieces. sendmail" comes before ssh. The first element is SERVICES=" which is uppercase, sorting before lowercase. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI From Stout.Joel at emeryworld.com Fri Dec 14 15:06:08 2001 From: Stout.Joel at emeryworld.com (Stout, Joel R) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's Message-ID: Sounds like you guys had fun. Unfortunately I was hacking some ASP (not my decision). Let me know if the 'technical meeting' is still okay for the beginner-types. Joel ...newbie to the PDX list -----Original Message----- From: merlyn@stonehenge.com [mailto:merlyn@stonehenge.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:28 AM To: Randall Burns Cc: pdx-pm-list@pm.org Subject: Re: Lucky's >>>>> "Randall" == Randall Burns writes: Randall> Lucky's is pretty accessible once someone finds it. If it Randall> were possible to get the private room there, it would be a Randall> fine place for a technical meeting. Yes, and the parking is better than Broadway McMs. Anything outside the downtown/NW/lloyd-center core is preferred. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI From mikeraz at patch.com Fri Dec 14 16:12:08 2001 From: mikeraz at patch.com (mikeraz@patch.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: the Lab In-Reply-To: ; from Stout.Joel@emeryworld.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:06:08PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20011214141208.B11098@patch.com> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:06:08PM -0000, Stout, Joel R typed: > Sounds like you guys had fun. Unfortunately I was hacking some ASP (not my > decision). > > Let me know if the 'technical meeting' is still okay for the beginner-types. Yes, we did. 'technical meeting' okay for beginners? Half the people there had never been to one of these before, at least one person at the table had never written anything in Perl. Beginner's most welcome. -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin But keep in mind: He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know. -- Lao Tsu TIMTOWTDI From Ian_Shaughnessy at NAI.com Fri Dec 14 16:42:26 2001 From: Ian_Shaughnessy at NAI.com (Shaughnessy, Ian) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Lucky's Message-ID: <75256BFE0332D4118969009027E77E7C798CBB@SNC-5-14.nai.com> Yeah, I was unable to attend as well, I had forgotten that I had a final last night, luckily I remembered at noon yesterday. Heh, oops. But I'd love to do a technical meeting in the private room of lucky's, or anywhere else. -Ian -----Original Message----- From: Stout, Joel R [mailto:Stout.Joel@emeryworld.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:06 PM To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org Subject: RE: Lucky's Sounds like you guys had fun. Unfortunately I was hacking some ASP (not my decision). Let me know if the 'technical meeting' is still okay for the beginner-types. Joel ...newbie to the PDX list -----Original Message----- From: merlyn@stonehenge.com [mailto:merlyn@stonehenge.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:28 AM To: Randall Burns Cc: pdx-pm-list@pm.org Subject: Re: Lucky's >>>>> "Randall" == Randall Burns writes: Randall> Lucky's is pretty accessible once someone finds it. If it Randall> were possible to get the private room there, it would be a Randall> fine place for a technical meeting. Yes, and the parking is better than Broadway McMs. Anything outside the downtown/NW/lloyd-center core is preferred. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI From poec at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 13:26:43 2001 From: poec at yahoo.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Next Perl Mongers meeting In-Reply-To: <75256BFE0332D4118969009027E77E7C798CBB@SNC-5-14.nai.com> Message-ID: <20011217192643.17344.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, The last Perl Mongers meeting was a great success. We had between 15 and 20 people (depending on how you counted) and a lot of great discussion, some of it even about Perl. I was concerned that there was no convenient way to schedule future meetings without *someone* being left out, but there was a unanimous agreement that Wednesdays work well. Barring something unforeseen, future meetings will be monthly on the second Wednesday of the month. We could still use more suggestions on office space. Also, if anyone has ideas for technical talks they would be interested in or are willing to give, please let us know! Some ideas include: Common CGI security issues (I might give this talk) Writing Inline code (embedding another programming language in Perl) Using Parse::RecDescent Regular expression tricks Obfu Perl explanations Perl Object-Oriented Persistence I have no idea of the relative skill level of people on this list, so the above categories may be too basic or too advanced (I suspect both, depending on the audience). More ideas and feedback are welcome. I've also thought a talk on beginning perl might be interesting. This would be aimed more at those interested in whether or not Perl would be suitable for them and perhaps would be held on a different evening. Who knows? The next Perl Mongers meeting: Date: Wednesday, January 9th. Subject: Randal Schwartz will discuss new features Perl6. Location: Onsite! Technology offices URL: http://www.onsitetech.com/ Address: 333 SE 3rd, Portland, OR Time: 8:30 PM I'd like to have a social meeting before hand. If you plan to be there, please let me know as soon as possible so I can figure out a nice restaurant close to here. A small bar/restaurant named Produce Row is just around the corner and we can walk to the offices, but if we have a large turnout, it may be too small. Again, if you have ideas for talks you'd like to see or give, please let me know! Cheers, Curtis "Ovid" Poe ===== Senior Programmer Onsite! Technology (http://www.onsitetech.com/) "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com TIMTOWTDI From cb at onsitetech.com Mon Dec 17 14:39:01 2001 From: cb at onsitetech.com (Christian) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Next Perl Mongers meeting In-Reply-To: <20011217192643.17344.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Curtis - I don't know about the rest of your but, I always felt there might be more to benchmarking and Benchmark.pm. I feel that I've only scratched the surface. Then again if there is just not much more to it and people tell me that then I'll finally be rid of this awful feeling :). Christian Brink CTO ONSITE! Technology www.onsitetech.com 503.233.1418 cb@onsitetech.com Taking e-Business and Internet Technology To The Extreme! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pdx-pm-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-pdx-pm-list@pm.org]On > Behalf Of Curtis Poe > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:27 AM > To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org > Subject: Next Perl Mongers meeting > > > Hello all, > > The last Perl Mongers meeting was a great success. We had > between 15 and 20 people (depending on > how you counted) and a lot of great discussion, some of it even > about Perl. > > I was concerned that there was no convenient way to schedule > future meetings without *someone* > being left out, but there was a unanimous agreement that > Wednesdays work well. Barring something > unforeseen, future meetings will be monthly on the second > Wednesday of the month. We could still > use more suggestions on office space. > > Also, if anyone has ideas for technical talks they would be > interested in or are willing to give, > please let us know! Some ideas include: > > Common CGI security issues (I might give this talk) > Writing Inline code (embedding another programming language in Perl) > Using Parse::RecDescent > Regular expression tricks > Obfu Perl explanations > Perl Object-Oriented Persistence > > I have no idea of the relative skill level of people on this > list, so the above categories may be > too basic or too advanced (I suspect both, depending on the > audience). More ideas and feedback > are welcome. I've also thought a talk on beginning perl might be > interesting. This would be > aimed more at those interested in whether or not Perl would be > suitable for them and perhaps would > be held on a different evening. Who knows? > > The next Perl Mongers meeting: > > Date: Wednesday, January 9th. > Subject: Randal Schwartz will discuss new features Perl6. > Location: Onsite! Technology offices > URL: http://www.onsitetech.com/ > Address: 333 SE 3rd, Portland, OR > Time: 8:30 PM > > I'd like to have a social meeting before hand. If you plan to be > there, please let me know as > soon as possible so I can figure out a nice restaurant close to > here. A small bar/restaurant > named Produce Row is just around the corner and we can walk to > the offices, but if we have a large > turnout, it may be too small. > > Again, if you have ideas for talks you'd like to see or give, > please let me know! > > Cheers, > Curtis "Ovid" Poe > > ===== > Senior Programmer > Onsite! Technology (http://www.onsitetech.com/) > "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI From markmoon at teleport.com Mon Dec 17 19:18:55 2001 From: markmoon at teleport.com (MarkyMoon) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Next Perl Mongers meeting References: <20011217192643.17344.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C1E997F.8FAE916@teleport.com> Curtis Poe wrote: > Also, if anyone has ideas for technical talks they would be interested in or are willing to give, > please let us know! Personally, I think a discussion of Perl DBI would make me tingle all over. Mark Smith -- MarkyMoon -- @a = ("a".."z"," ","-","\n");foreach $b ( 12,0,17,10,24,12,14,14,13,26,8,18,26,0,26, 22,0,13,13,0,27,1,4,26,15,4,17,11,26,7,0, 2,10,4,17) {print $a[$b]};print $a[28]; TIMTOWTDI From joe at joppegaard.com Sun Dec 23 00:25:00 2001 From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases Message-ID: Heya, I'm trying to add hashes of arrays to a database, but accessing those values again is the problem. First of all, is this even possible? I haven't seen any documentation that says it isn't, although I also have been able to find any code that actually does it either... In the following code I'm using the GDBM and anonymous arrays, although when trying to figure this out I've used named arrays and anonymous arrays both in NDBM, BSD-DB and GDBM. I'd like to stay away from databases like MySQL and Oracle because when this project is finished I'd like it to be easily portable. (And of course, not everyone has root access to a MySQL or Oracle database). --------Code-------- #!/usr/bin/perl -w ### This first program creates the database use GDBM_File; use strict; tie my %places, 'GDBM_File', 'places.gdbm', &GDBM_WRCREAT, 0640; %places = ( washington => [ "vancouver", "tacoma", "seattle" ], oregon => [ "portland", "eugene", "beaverton" ], arizona => [ "tempe", "flagstaff", "sedona" ], ); untie %places; ----- #!/usr/bin/perl -w ### # This one then tries to read the data, but fails returning # Can't use string ("ARRAY(0x80f6460)") as an ARRAY ref... # Without strict enabled it simply prints ARRAY(0x80f6460) ### use strict; use GDBM_File; tie my %places, 'GDBM_File', 'places.gdbm', &GDBM_READER, 0640; print $places{washington}[1] . "\n"; untie %places; --------End Code-------- Ok, now the following code is exactly the same except instead of using arrays (anonymous or named) as the values, I just use a single value. Note the following works exactly as expected, printing out vancouver. --------Code------------ #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; use GDBM_File; tie my %places, 'GDBM_File', 'single_places.gdbm', &GDBM_WRCREAT, 0640; %places = ( washington => "vancouver", oregon => "portland", arizona => "tempe", ); untie %places; ---- #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; use GDBM_File; tie my %places, 'GDBM_File', 'single_places.gdbm', &GDBM_READER, 0640; print $places{washington} . "\n"; untie %places; --------End Code-------- Any ideas? The other option I've been considering is just inputting the data into a normal text file, but encrypting the information (Maybe using Crypt::Blowfish??) before it got there, because there will be passwords stored on my end project. If you care what I'm shooting for, read the following, if not, skip this next paragraph of rambling. :) In the end what I'm hoping to accomplish is a fully featured webpage basically cloning http://conversatron.com, mainly because that site is hilarous and I'd to see other people start off their own Q&A site. There already is a couple of sites like this (http://truemeaningoflife.com and http://conversawang.com), but no one has released their source! The conversatron uses python and mysql, both the wang and tmol use php (I don't know what database), and I'd like to see it done in perl (with an easily portable db) :) I have a pretty good idea on everything else I need to do, this is just my main barrier. Have a good one, -- -Joe Oppegaard http://joppegaard.com TIMTOWTDI From tkil at scrye.com Sun Dec 23 03:05:42 2001 From: tkil at scrye.com (Tkil) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>>> "Joe" == Joe Oppegaard writes: Joe> I'm trying to add hashes of arrays to a database, but accessing Joe> those values again is the problem. First of all, is this even Joe> possible? I haven't seen any documentation that says it isn't, Joe> although I also have been able to find any code that actually Joe> does it either... http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.6.1/pod/perlfaq4.html#How-do-I-keep-persistent-data-across-program-calls- the basic idea is that you have to put out the data in a format that can be read back in; java and other languages call this "seriali- zation" and it is a mostly-solved problem (although it's not trivial; think especially of recursive or self-referencing data structures, and what it means to "write those to disk" in a way that can be restored into memory sanely). t. TIMTOWTDI From poec at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 04:59:23 2001 From: poec at yahoo.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011223105923.21819.qmail@web9105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joe Oppegaard wrote: > Heya, > > I'm trying to add hashes of arrays to a database, but accessing those > values again is the problem. First of all, is this even possible? Joe, This isn't terribly difficult. There are a number of strategies that you can employ to pull this off. I think the easiest is to use Storable (you can grab it off of the CPAN). This snippet shows you how you can "serialize" the data structure to a scalar and read it back out. The scalar can be saved to a database, written out over a socket connection or whatever. Run this snippet and you'll see what I mean. use strict; use warnings; use Storable qw/ freeze thaw /; use Data::Dumper; my %foo = ( one => [ qw/ a b c / ], two => [ qw/ 1 2 3 / ] ); my $serialized = freeze \%foo; my %clone = %{ thaw $serialized }; print Dumper \%clone; > In the following code I'm using the GDBM and anonymous arrays, although > when trying to figure this out I've used named arrays and anonymous arrays > both in NDBM, BSD-DB and GDBM. I'd like to stay away from databases like > MySQL and Oracle because when this project is finished I'd like it to be > easily portable. If you want it to be easily portable, then use a database and the DBI module :) > In the end what I'm hoping to accomplish is a fully featured webpage > basically cloning http://conversatron.com, mainly because that site is > hilarous and I'd to see other people start off their own Q&A site. There > already is a couple of sites like this (http://truemeaningoflife.com and > http://conversawang.com), but no one has released their source! The > conversatron uses python and mysql, both the wang and tmol use php (I > don't know what database), and I'd like to see it done in perl (with an > easily portable db) :) If you want an easily portable solution, stick to DBI as far more people will be familiar with it. Of course, you will have database considerations. Do you want to support transactions? Row level locking? Foreign key constraints? If so, databases like MySQL just won't cut it. If you ignore those for greater portability and stick to ANSI SQL, this will be *very* portable, but then much of the work that should be in the database (such as maintaining referential integrity) is pushed into the code and this will increase the number of bugs in your code (note that I did NOT say "the probability of the number of bugs". You will have more bugs if your Perl is forced to implement those things that your database cannot). Cheers, Curtis "Ovid" Poe ===== "Ovid" on http://www.perlmonks.org/ Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl: push@A,$_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//; shift@a;shift@a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com TIMTOWTDI From joe at joppegaard.com Sun Dec 23 14:39:20 2001 From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases In-Reply-To: <20011223105923.21819.qmail@web9105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Curtis, Thanks for the pointers on the code, they sure got me moving in the right direction. As for the database to use, I'm just going to have to do some more reading on the different options and analyzing of what I need done. (And more experimenting). Have a good one, -- -Joe Oppegaard http://joppegaard.com TIMTOWTDI From jeff at vpservices.com Sun Dec 23 18:24:18 2001 From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases References: Message-ID: <3C2675B2.9ED5C0E9@vpservices.com> Joe Oppegaard wrote: > > I'm trying to add hashes of arrays to a database, but accessing those > values again is the problem. First of all, is this even possible? I > haven't seen any documentation that says it isn't, although I also have > been able to find any code that actually does it either... > Curtis' suggestion to use Storable is a good one. Another is to use one of my AnyData modules, either AnyData.pm or, if you know SQL, DBD::AnyData.pm. The advantage is that they take care of all the tieing and locking behind the scenes and provide ready made retrieval options as well as standard methods for updating, deleting, or appending data. For example: use AnyData; my $arrayref = [ ["state", "city1", "city2", "city3" ], ["washington", "vancouver", "tacoma", "seattle" ], ["oregon", "portland", "eugene", "beaverton" ], ["arizona","tempe", "flagstaff", "sedona" ], ]; my $table = adTie( 'ARRAY', $arrayref ); print $table->{washington}->{city1}; # prints "vanvcouver"; print $table->{oregon}->{city2}; # prints "eugene"; adExport( $table, 'CSV','test1' ); # save db as a CSV file > The other option I've been considering is just inputting the > data into a normal text file, but encrypting the information How do you think putting it into a DBM file protects you anymore than a plain text file? If you can get it in and out with DBM mods, so can anyone else. If you need it protected then you need encryption either way. -- Jeff TIMTOWTDI From joe at joppegaard.com Sun Dec 23 22:59:07 2001 From: joe at joppegaard.com (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Hashes of Arrays and databases In-Reply-To: <3C2675B2.9ED5C0E9@vpservices.com> Message-ID: On 23 Dec 2001, Jeff Zucker wrote: > > > The other option I've been considering is just inputting the > > data into a normal text file, but encrypting the information > > How do you think putting it into a DBM file protects you anymore than a > plain text file? If you can get it in and out with DBM mods, so can > anyone else. If you need it protected then you need encryption either > way. > Ah, sorry I didn't explain myself clearly. During user creation before the password goes into the database I use blowfish encryption on it. (I've already setup a prototype that successfully does so). Those AnyData modules look pretty nice, thanks for the ideas. CPAN is wild! Though sometimes knowing WHAT you're looking for is 90% of the problem. Take it easy, -- -Joe Oppegaard http://joppegaard.com TIMTOWTDI From sechrest at peak.org Wed Dec 26 19:53:51 2001 From: sechrest at peak.org (John Sechrest) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: OSU CS 372 ---> Hunting for cisco routers Message-ID: <200112270153.fBR1rpt32712@tpol.peak.org> Hello everyone, Please excuse me for stepping in and making a request. I am teaching OSU CS 372 next term. It is an introduction to networking class. In my normal way, I am trying to make this class more hands on. But again, in the normal way, I don't have much of a budget to work with. I would like to get my students up to the elbows in cisco IOS. At least to the point that they have to hook a cisco router up and write a config file. I am hoping that some of you know of people nearby who have a closet full of old cisco routers. Is there any chance any of you know about anyone who has a spare router? If you know of one, I would be glad to put it to use in my class next term. Classes start on 1/9/2002. If you know of a router that I could use, please let me know as soon as you can. If you don't know anything about any of this... Then I am sorry to have disturbed your email. Thank you for any help you can provide with this effort. As an aside, I am writing up the final course assignments and course schedule this week. If you think there is something specific that OSU CS students should know about networking, now is the time to tell me. And I will see if I can get it into the material. ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest TIMTOWTDI From sparksc at hlyw.com Thu Dec 27 09:57:58 2001 From: sparksc at hlyw.com (Chris Sparks) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: OSU CS 372 ---> Hunting for cisco routers Message-ID: I have a Cisco 5000 (I think) that you could borrow for a term. Would that work? Chris Sparks BTW Password recovery is always a great topic. >>> John Sechrest 12/26/01 05:53PM >>> Hello everyone, Please excuse me for stepping in and making a request. I am teaching OSU CS 372 next term. It is an introduction to networking class. In my normal way, I am trying to make this class more hands on. But again, in the normal way, I don't have much of a budget to work with. I would like to get my students up to the elbows in cisco IOS. At least to the point that they have to hook a cisco router up and write a config file. I am hoping that some of you know of people nearby who have a closet full of old cisco routers. Is there any chance any of you know about anyone who has a spare router? If you know of one, I would be glad to put it to use in my class next term. Classes start on 1/9/2002. If you know of a router that I could use, please let me know as soon as you can. If you don't know anything about any of this... Then I am sorry to have disturbed your email. Thank you for any help you can provide with this effort. As an aside, I am writing up the final course assignments and course schedule this week. If you think there is something specific that OSU CS students should know about networking, now is the time to tell me. And I will see if I can get it into the material. ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest TIMTOWTDI TIMTOWTDI From sechrest at peak.org Thu Dec 27 10:32:14 2001 From: sechrest at peak.org (John Sechrest) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: OSU CS 372 ---> Hunting for cisco routers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:57:58 PST. Message-ID: <200112271632.fBRGWEO02967@tpol.peak.org> "Chris Sparks" writes: % I have a Cisco 5000 (I think) that you could borrow for a term. % Would that work? The notion of students "borrowing" an item and the idea of getting it back in working order are not really in the same realm. In general, I prefer to be in a situation where the box can be taken apart into tiny pieces and no-one will ever notice. Otherwise, there can be much anxiety at the end of the course. And I find that students already have enough anxiety at the end of a course... I have had people suggest that they have boxes that they could share on the network. IE remote access to routers. But that is usually inconsistant with healthy network security, so I am shying away from that one too. Password recovery is a good topic. I have tons of topics that I want to cover. using the cisco web site to find passwd recovery procedures is one of them. Thank you for your note. % Chris Sparks % % BTW Password recovery is always a great topic. % % >>> John Sechrest 12/26/01 05:53PM >>> % % % Hello everyone, % % Please excuse me for stepping in and making a request. % % I am teaching OSU CS 372 next term. It is an introduction to % networking class. % % In my normal way, I am trying to make this class more hands on. % But again, in the normal way, I don't have much of a budget to work % with. % % I would like to get my students up to the elbows in cisco IOS. % At least to the point that they have to hook a cisco router up % and write a config file. % % I am hoping that some of you know of people nearby who have a % closet full of old cisco routers. Is there any chance any % of you know about anyone who has a spare router? If you know % of one, I would be glad to put it to use in my class next % term. % % Classes start on 1/9/2002. If you know of a router that I could % use, please let me know as soon as you can. % % If you don't know anything about any of this... Then I am sorry % to have disturbed your email. % % Thank you for any help you can provide with this effort. % % As an aside, I am writing up the final course assignments and % course schedule this week. If you think there is something % specific that OSU CS students should know about networking, % now is the time to tell me. And I will see if I can get % it into the material. % % % % % % ----- % John Sechrest . Helping people use % CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet % Public Electronic . more effectively % Access to Knowledge,Inc . % 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org % Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 % . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest % % TIMTOWTDI % % TIMTOWTDI ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest TIMTOWTDI From sechrest at peak.org Thu Dec 27 16:51:21 2001 From: sechrest at peak.org (John Sechrest) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: OSU CS 372 ---> Hunting for cisco routers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:43:12 PST. <20011227134312.M3398@gblx.net> Message-ID: <200112272251.fBRMpLw22301@tpol.peak.org> Austin Schutz writes: % Have you asked the ucs people? I would be surprised if they % didn't have a few older ones sitting around. I asked the NERO people and got 3 routers. It looks like I will have at least 50 in the class and perhaps as many as 100. so more routers seems wise. % Also the oceanic sciences % folk were rumored to have a large collection of stuff around. Ok. I will call chuck. % If that fails and you don't get donated equipment you should % be able to find something usable on ebay for less than $300 or so % per router. Since you aren't going to be doing anything complex you % should be able to use pretty old hardware without trouble. Even if you % stuck your students with the bill (can you do that?) you'd be looking at % $30 per student or so, a lot less than the average text. At this point, I can not stick the students with the bill. But I may be able to find some departmental money for it. % > Classes start on 1/9/2002. If you know of a router that I could % > use, please let me know as soon as you can. % > % > If you don't know anything about any of this... Then I am sorry % > to have disturbed your email. % > % > Thank you for any help you can provide with this effort. % > % > As an aside, I am writing up the final course assignments and % > course schedule this week. If you think there is something % > specific that OSU CS students should know about networking, % > now is the time to tell me. And I will see if I can get % > it into the material. % > % % I would expect you would want to have at least three routers to % demonstrate what happens during failover... what happens to the traffic % before and after you e.g. jerk an ethernet cable out of a router. % Presumably it would be too advanced to discuss routing protocols in % depth, but I would think at least a conceptual demonstration might be % worthwhile. % % % Austin % % > % > % > % > % > ----- % > John Sechrest . Helping people use % > CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet % > Public Electronic . more effectively % > Access to Knowledge,Inc . % > 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org % > Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 % > . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest % > % > TIMTOWTDI ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest TIMTOWTDI From cp at onsitetech.com Fri Dec 28 14:04:54 2001 From: cp at onsitetech.com (Curtis Poe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:05:27 2004 Subject: Accessing scratchpad variables References: <200112271632.fBRGWEO02967@tpol.peak.org> Message-ID: <01c001c18fda$eaa30800$1a01a8c0@ot.onsitetech.com> Hi all, Does anyone have any samples of XS, SWIG, or Inline::C code (preferably the latter) that accesses scratchpad variables? I've looked and can't seem to find any. Reading through the Perl source to get the answers seems pretty daunting :) No, there's no particular problem I'm trying to solve. I've been playing around with Inline::C and am just curious about the internals. -- Curtis "Ovid" Poe, Senior Programmer, Onsite! Technology Someone asked me how to count to 10 in Perl: push @A, $_ for reverse q.e...q.n.;for(@A){$_=unpack(q|c|,$_);@a=split//; shift @a;shift @a if $a[$[]eq$[;$_=join q||,@a};print $_,$/for reverse @A TIMTOWTDI