From alamozzz at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 13:21:34 2004 From: alamozzz at yahoo.com (Adrien Lamothe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [JOB] Re: [oak perl] Check out this dice.com position: sk108PerlSol In-Reply-To: <1080758761.18669.15.camel@ls104> Message-ID: <20040401192134.91542.qmail@web80808.mail.yahoo.com> I saw the job on DICE. DICE has a feature that enables emailling a listing to other people. In the past, this feature would send the complete listing, but now it sends a hyper-link to the listing. That is why the return address is different. I posted the reference for anyone who may be interested; its fairly uncommon to find a job where Perl is the primary skill sought (in this case Sys Admin experience is equally important, but its still a "Perl job.") -- Adrien Belden Lyman wrote:On Tue, 2004-03-30 at 22:23, alamozzz@yahoo.com wrote: > I found this great opportunity at Dice, and thought it might be helpful in your job search. > http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=1002&dockey=xml/c/8/c8b891cb55d7f0b6825883273ef5efcb@activejobs0&source=3 > ======== > > Came across this on DICE. Looks like something David Alban may be interested in. Hi Adrien, Last I heard, David Alban had found a full-time job. (David, please stand up and take a bow.) For those that can't be bothered to click the link above (I couldn't), the job posted is a temp job working for http://www.taos.com for 3+ months in Sunnyvale (no telecommute). Advertised skills are "Perl scripting and Solaris/Linux". No pay rate is given. Belden ps - Adrien- your mail is identifying you as alamozzz@yahoo.com rather than 'Adrien Lamoth' Accident or design? _______________________________________________ Oakland mailing list Oakland@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20040401/0a5e3030/attachment.htm From blyman at iii.com Thu Apr 1 13:57:34 2004 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [JOB] Re: [oak perl] Check out this dice.com position: sk108PerlSol In-Reply-To: <20040401192134.91542.qmail@web80808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040401192134.91542.qmail@web80808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1080849074.25682.29.camel@ls104> On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 11:21, Adrien Lamothe wrote: > I posted the reference for anyone who may be interested; its > fairly uncommon to find a job where Perl is the primary skill sought > (in this case Sys Admin experience is equally important, but its still > a "Perl job.") > There was a similar thread on London.pm recently regarding the difficulty of finding jobs where Perl is among the primary skills. Thread starts http://tinyurl.com/ytr9v Belden From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 2 03:11:27 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 1 Message-ID: <200404020111.27731.george@metaart.org> I particularly enjoyed the "Fun April Fool's Day Stuff" near the end. -- George ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 1 Date: Thursday 01 April 2004 6:14 pm From: Marsee Henon To: george@metaart.org ... ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members April 1, 2004 ================================================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -SQL Pocket Guide -Windows Server Hacks -Excel Hacks -Digital Photography: Expert Techniques -Network Security Assessment -Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition -Linux for Non-Geeks ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Robbie Allen ("DNS on Windows Server 2003," "Active Directory "), Windows & .NET Magazine Connections, Las Vegas, NV--April 4-7 -Brian Aker ("Running Weblogs with Slash") and Jeremy Zawodny ("High Performance MySQL"), MySQL Users Conference, Orlando, FL--Apr 14-16 -Mac User Group Day at O'Reilly in Sebastopol, CA--April 24 ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Resizing an Image with Photoshop -What's New in Photoshop CS? -400 O'Reilly Books on Safari -Top Ten Tips to Make Attackers??? Lives Hell -Eleven Metrics to Monitor for a Happy and Healthy Squid -You Sexy Thing! -Creating Online Help with Tinderbox -Windows Server Hacks: Resetting User Passwords -Kill Internet Ads with HOSTS and PAC Files -Power Up Internet Explorer with Three Shells -Java and Sound, Part 1 -Create Project Item Wizards -O'Reilly Learning Lab's .NET Certificate Series -Fun April Fool's Day Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- News From Your Peers ---------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the new O'Reilly User Group Wiki for the latest news ================================================ Book News ================================================ Did you know you can request a free book to review for your group? Ask your group leader for more information. For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to: http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, or Syngress book you purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. http://www.oreilly.com/ ***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico. For more details, go to: http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Releases ---------------------------------------------------------------- ***SQL Pocket Guide Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596005121 Not just an endless collection of syntax diagrams, this guide succinctly covers the four commonly used SQL variants: Oracle, IBM DB2, Microsoft SQL Server, and MySQL. 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No matter which Windows Server you use--NT, IIS, 2000, or 2003--"Windows Server Hacks" will put the knowledge and expertise of veteran system administrators to work for you. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/winsvrhks/ Sample hacks are available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/winsvrhks/chapter/index.html ***Excel Hacks Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600625X The tips and tools in this book include little-known "backdoor" adjustments for everything from reducing workbook and worksheet frustration to hacking built-in features such as pivot tables, charts, formulas and functions, and even the macro language. This resourceful, roll-up-your-sleeves guide shows you new ways to make Excel do things--from data analysis to worksheet management to import/export--that you never thought possible. Excel Hacks increases your productivity and gives you hours of "hacking" enjoyment along the way. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/excelhks/ Sample hacks are available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/excelhks/chapter/index.html ***Digital Photography: Expert Techniques Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596005474 Rather than a general discussion of photography principles, this four-color book focuses on workflow: time-tested, step-by-step procedures based on practitioners??? experiences of the art of digital photography. The book provides detailed information about what to look for in today's high-end digicams, how to use simple techniques and equipment to shoot breathtaking shots and great panoramas, do???s and don'ts for creating better Photoshop masks, and professional digital darkroom techniques. Serious photographers and professionals will find this problem-solving book invaluable. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dphotohdbk/ Chapter 3, "Bringing Out the Best Picture," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dphotohdbk/chapter/index.html ***Network Security Assessment Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600611X Using the same steps professional security analysts have adopted to identify and assess risks, this book offers an efficient testing model you can adopt, refine, and reuse to create defensive strategies to protect your systems from current threats, as well as those still being developed. 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Includes a complete installation of Fedora Linux on two CDs. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270348/ ================================================ Upcoming Events ================================================ ***For more events, please see: http://events.oreilly.com/ ***Robbie Allen ("DNS on Windows Server 2003," "Active Directory "), Windows & .NET Magazine Connections, Las Vegas, NV--April 4-7 Robbie is a speaker at this networking technology conference. Hyatt Lake Las Vegas, Las Vegas, NV http://www.winconnections.com/win/ ***Brian Aker ("Running Weblogs with Slash") and Jeremy Zawodny ("High Performance MySQL"), MySQL Users Conference, Orlando, FL--Apr 14-16 Brian and Jeremy are a featured speakers and several O'Reilly editors and other authors will be be attending the conference--be sure to say hello if you run into them. Our friends at Digital Guru will be staffing the booth for us, so stop by to check out our newest titles. Peabody Hotel, Booth #301, Orlando, FL http://www.mysql.com/events/uc2004/index.html ***Mac User Group Day at O'Reilly in Sebastopol, CA--April 24 Join O'Reilly and NCMUG for a special Mac User Group Day in Sebastopol on Saturday, April 24 from 2-6pm. Speakers include Derrick Story ("Digital Photography Pocket Guide, 2nd Edition," "iPhoto 2: The Missing Manual"), Chris Stone ("Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell"), Tom Negrino & Dori Smith ("Mac OS X Unwired"), and Scott Fullam ("Hardware Hacking Projects for Geeks"). For more information and a complete schedule of events, go to: http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/macugday_hi_res.pdf Please RSVP to let us know you will be attending at mugevent@oreilly.com. Mac User Group Day 2:00pm-6:00pm, Saturday, April 24 O'Reilly 1005 Gravenstein Hwy North Sebastopol, CA 95472 800-998-9938 Ext. 7103 For directions, go to: http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/seb_directions.html The 58th Annual Sebastopol Apple Blossom Festival will be also be happening. 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In this article, he covers the new features in CS he's most excited about. Ken is the author of "Digital Photography: Expert Techniques" http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2004/03/23/digphoto.html ***400 O'Reilly Books on Safari O'Reilly now boasts more than 400 books on Safari, the premier electronic reference library for IT professionals and programmers. We're proud to have such a strong presence on Safari, where we share company with the industry's leading technical publishers in bringing readers time-saving access to the information they need. If you are not yet a Safari convert, give the service a try with a free trial subscription: https://secure.safaribooksonline.com/promo.asp?code=ORA14&portal=oreilly&CMP= BAC-TP2974244892 --------------------- Open Source --------------------- ***Top Ten Tips to Make Attackers??? 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So Snaggy and Nitrozac offer their brand of advice on how to look great on iChat AV, in spite of iSight. With tips on proper lighting, camera angles, and using the right foundation, Snaggy and Nitrozac offer more of the high-tech humor you've come to know and love in their comic and in their book, "The Best of The Joy of Tech." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/03/16/iSight.html ***Creating Online Help with Tinderbox Apple's online help system, Apple Help, has a dubious reputation among some Mac users, mainly because of poky performance. But Panther has improved the situation. Matt Neuburg built an online help system for a Mac application using a note-taking hypertext outliner called Tinderbox. He explains the process in this article. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/03/30/online_help.html --------------------- Windows --------------------- ***Windows Server Hacks: Resetting User Passwords Resetting user passwords from the command line can save you time, but there are "gotchas" along the way. Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows Server Hacks," shows you what to watch out for and how to reset passwords fast. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/03/30/serverhacks_password s.html ***Kill Internet Ads with HOSTS and PAC Files You don't need special software to kill ads and objectionable Internet content--just use the power built right into the Windows browser. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/03/30/hosts.html ***Power Up Internet Explorer with Three Shells Supercharge Internet Explorer with one of these three wrappers, and you won't be able to imagine how you got along without them. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/03/23/ie_shells.html For all the latest Windows tips and tricks visit: http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/ --------------------- Java --------------------- ***Java and Sound, Part 1 Where can you learn how to play simple audio clips with the java.applet.AudioClip class, as well as how to use the javax.sound.sampled and javax.sound.midi packages to do such things as load and play sound clips, and monitor and change the playback position within a clip? In these first excerpts in a two-part series of excerpts from Chapter 17 ("Sound") of "Java Examples in a Nutshell, 3rd Edition." http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/excerpt/jenut3_ch17/index.html ***Bug Prevention with Code Generation: A J2EE Case Study If you had to drill 12,000 holes, would you prefer a manual drill, or its automated equivalent? Francesco Aliverti-Piuri describes using code generation for discovering bugs in a J2EE example. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/03/31/codeGen.html --------------------- .NET --------------------- ***Create Project Item Wizards In a recent project, Niel Bornstein and his team had to produce a platform that included a set of base classes that other developers could use to develop Windows forms in Visual Studio .NET 2003. As the team worked on the base classes, it became clear that the developers would be able to crank out their forms a lot faster if they could also generate stubs and skeleton code for all the methods they needed to override in their own classes. Niel explains how to do it in this article. http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/03/22/wizards.html ***O'Reilly Learning Lab's .NET Certificate Series Learn .NET programming skills and earn a .NET Programming Certificate from the University of Illinois Office of Continuing Education. The .NET Certificate Series is comprised of three courses that give you the foundation you need to do .NET programming well. The courses are: Learn XML; Learn Object-Oriented Programming Using Java; and Learn C#. Limited time offer: Enroll in all three courses and save $895. http://oreilly.useractive.com/courses/dotnet.php3 ------------------------------------ Fun April Fool's Day Stuff ------------------------------------ 10 stories that could be pranks--but aren't http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3589239.stm Google Copernicus Center is hiring (Google, 2004) http://www.google.com/jobs/lunar_job.html The technology behind Google's great results (Google, 2002) http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html Programming Parrot in a Nutshell (O'Reilly, 2001) http://www.oreilly.com/parrot/ The Story Behind the Parrot Prank http://www.oreilly.com/news/parrotstory_0401.html Still a good joke--47 years on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/3591687.stm 10 funniest media jokes on April Fools day http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/12398_jokes.html ================================================ News From Your Peers ================================================ ***Check out the new O'Reilly User Group Wiki for the latest news You can look for a meeting, user group, or post information any time you want. http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/view?HomePage Until next time-- Marsee ------------------------------------------------------- From alamozzz at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 09:56:31 2004 From: alamozzz at yahoo.com (Adrien Lamothe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [JOB] Re: [oak perl] Check out this dice.com position: sk108PerlSol In-Reply-To: <1080849074.25682.29.camel@ls104> Message-ID: <20040402155631.68183.qmail@web80810.mail.yahoo.com> I'm actually seeing lots of jobs where Perl is one of many language/tool requirements. In such cases, its difficult to assess how Perl will be utilized. I usually don't follow-up on these, because the overall skill set is just too strange. Belden Lyman wrote: On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 11:21, Adrien Lamothe wrote: > I posted the reference for anyone who may be interested; its > fairly uncommon to find a job where Perl is the primary skill sought > (in this case Sys Admin experience is equally important, but its still > a "Perl job.") > There was a similar thread on London.pm recently regarding the difficulty of finding jobs where Perl is among the primary skills. Thread starts http://tinyurl.com/ytr9v Belden _______________________________________________ Oakland mailing list Oakland@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20040402/0dffb8ef/attachment.htm From george at metaart.org Mon Apr 5 17:13:12 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? Message-ID: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? From david at fetter.org Mon Apr 5 17:09:13 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 00:59:13 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > Cheers, > D David, Thanks for the provocative response. Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is that there are no production environments in which which it is ever appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. Is that your view? skoal, George ...... Tony, Any thoughts? George [Well, I was thinking of our guest Tony Stubblebine, but if Tony Monroe, or any other Tony or anyone else, wishes to comment that's kool too.] From david at fetter.org Tue Apr 6 12:06:01 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > > > Cheers, > > D > > David, > Thanks for the provocative response. > > Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is > that there are no production environments in which which it is ever > appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. > Is that your view? I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From tonys at oreillynet.com Tue Apr 6 12:23:40 2004 From: tonys at oreillynet.com (Tony Stubblebine) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> Message-ID: <4072E79C.1000808@oreillynet.com> I think the root problem is not that people write complicated regular expression, but that they write any regular expressions without tests or documentation. Even if your regex is simple, your data isn't. Here's a simple regex that crops up every place I work. # security check $file =~ s!\.\./!!g; A lot of people think file path security just means that you need to strip out ../ Here's what's wrong with the regex: 1. The regex is wrong. It turns foo....//bar into foo../bar. 2. You should match and die, not substitute and continue. The regex is checking for an attack not a typo. Why would you let an attacker continue? 3. If you're letting untrusted users open arbitrary files, you're probably hosed regardless of your regex. That's my most annoying regex =) --Tony David Fetter wrote: >On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > >>On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: >> >> >>>On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: >>> >>> >>>>What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? >>>> >>>> >>>Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all >>>equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) >>> >>>Cheers, >>>D >>> >>> >>David, >>Thanks for the provocative response. >> >>Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is >>that there are no production environments in which which it is ever >>appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. >>Is that your view? >> >> > >I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my >experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. >Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. > >Cheers, >D > > From david at fetter.org Tue Apr 6 12:39:09 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <4072E79C.1000808@oreillynet.com> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> <4072E79C.1000808@oreillynet.com> Message-ID: <20040406173909.GU9517@fetter.org> On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 10:23:40AM -0700, Tony Stubblebine wrote: > I think the root problem is not that people write complicated > regular expression, but that they write any regular expressions > without tests or documentation. Even if your regex is simple, your > data isn't. Here's a simple regex that crops up every place I work. Excellent point re: tests & docs. I contend that complicated regexes make these things go from difficult and time-consuming to un-bloody-likely to be done at all. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From mtheo at amural.com Tue Apr 6 13:47:28 2004 From: mtheo at amural.com (Mark Theodoropoulos) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <20040405220913.GQ9517@fetter.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) I'm inclined to agree -- but where exactly is your psychological right margin? :) Mark Theodoropoulos Berkeley -- producer / classics without walls the anti-warhorse zone / www.amural.com kusf 90.3fm / san francisco From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 14:22:26 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:06 am, David Fetter wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > > > > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > D > > > > David, > > Thanks for the provocative response. > > > > Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is > > that there are no production environments in which which it is ever > > appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. > > Is that your view? > > I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my > experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. > Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. > > Cheers, > D David, Oh, good. I'm glad that your position isn't that no regexes belong in production code. You seem uncertain how I managed to understand you to be saying that no regexes belong in production code. Here's how: * Because of the context I interpreted "they're all" to be referring to "all regexes". * I thought you were continuing with the same topic in the second half of that sentence (which has no explicit subject). * That led me to interpret it as something like "all regexes don't belong in production code" or an unqualified "No regexes belong in production code". Hope that clarifies how I managed to get that out of what you said. I haven't so far come up with an alternate interpretation. Hence I would be most interested in your interpretation of your own words. Anyway, I do now understand that you do not take the position that no regexes belong in production code. George P.S. Thanks for not deleting the earlier parts of the thread in your post. It makes discussion much easier. From david at fetter.org Tue Apr 6 14:29:36 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> Message-ID: <20040406192936.GA1576@fetter.org> On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 11:47:28AM -0700, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > I'm inclined to agree -- but where exactly is your psychological > right margin? :) My editor sets the right margin at 70 characters. :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 14:45:23 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> Message-ID: <200404061245.23868.george@metaart.org> On Tuesday 06 April 2004 11:47 am, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > I'm inclined to agree -- but where exactly is your psychological right > margin? :) > > > Mark Theodoropoulos > Berkeley Hey Mark, We meet in Berkeley these days. How about the pschological left margin? :) (^_^) Skoal, George P.S. Our last two meetings had to do with regexes. The next shifts to "Perl and Postmodernism". Who knows, perhaps you'll want to give that talk you were going to give long ago. From blyman at iii.com Tue Apr 6 16:18:06 2004 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying thread about regexes? In-Reply-To: <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 12:22, George Woolley wrote: > On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:06 am, David Fetter wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > > > > > > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > D > > > > > > David, > > > Thanks for the provocative response. > > > > > > Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is > > > that there are no production environments in which which it is ever > > > appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. > > > Is that your view? > > > > I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my > > experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. > > Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. > > > > Cheers, > > D > > David, > > Oh, good. > I'm glad that your position isn't > that no regexes belong in production code. > > You seem uncertain how I managed to understand you to be saying > that no regexes belong in production code. > Here's how: > * Because of the context I interpreted "they're all" > to be referring to "all regexes". > * I thought you were continuing with the same topic > in the second half of that sentence > (which has no explicit subject). > * That led me to interpret it as something like > "all regexes don't belong in production code" > or an unqualified "No regexes belong in production code". > Hope that clarifies how I managed to get that out of what you said. > > I haven't so far come up with an alternate interpretation. > Hence I would be most interested in your interpretation > of your own words. > How about how someone else interpreted David's words? Here's what was written: George: What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? David: Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) I took David to mean: "The most annoying regex I've encountered is anything that doesn't fit on one line. The set of regular expressions which is longer than a line's length is an annoying set, none of whose members belong in production code." Perhaps missed by other readers, David further implies the existence of a single regular expression which proves that the aforementioned set is finite. But lacking the space in his margin to scribble the tantalizing regex, we are simply left with Fetter's Enigma. > Anyway, I do now understand > that you do not take the position > that no regexes belong in production code. > There is a certain school of thought which contends that only production code belongs in production code. Superfluous drapery- error messages, regular expressions, SQL statements, HTML templates, javascript, and so on should all be removed from production code. See Class::Phrasebook, Parse::RecDescent, and your templating module of choice. If you want to remove production code from your production code, see also Acme::Bleach. Belden > George > > P.S. Thanks for not deleting the earlier parts of the thread > in your post. > It makes discussion much easier. > From david at fetter.org Tue Apr 6 17:05:42 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying thread about regexes? In-Reply-To: <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <200404052259.13558.george@metaart.org> <20040406170601.GS9517@fetter.org> <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> Message-ID: <20040406220542.GC14933@fetter.org> On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 02:11:46PM -0700, Belden Lyman wrote: > On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 12:22, George Woolley wrote: > > On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:06 am, David Fetter wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > > > > > > > > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > > > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > D > > > > > > > > David, > > > > Thanks for the provocative response. > > > > > > > > Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is > > > > that there are no production environments in which which it is ever > > > > appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. > > > > Is that your view? > > > > > > I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my > > > experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. > > > Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. > > > > > David, > > > > Oh, good. > > I'm glad that your position isn't > > that no regexes belong in production code. > > > > You seem uncertain how I managed to understand you to be saying > > that no regexes belong in production code. > > Here's how: > > * Because of the context I interpreted "they're all" > > to be referring to "all regexes". > > * I thought you were continuing with the same topic > > in the second half of that sentence > > (which has no explicit subject). > > * That led me to interpret it as something like > > "all regexes don't belong in production code" > > or an unqualified "No regexes belong in production code". > > Hope that clarifies how I managed to get that out of what you said. > > > > I haven't so far come up with an alternate interpretation. > > Hence I would be most interested in your interpretation > > of your own words. > > > > How about how someone else interpreted David's words? > > Here's what was written: > > George: What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > David: Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're > all equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > I took David to mean: > > "The most annoying regex I've encountered is anything that doesn't fit > on one line. The set of regular expressions which is longer than a > line's length is an annoying set, none of whose members belong in > production code." Yes. > Perhaps missed by other readers, David further implies the existence > of a single regular expression which proves that the aforementioned > set is finite. I didn't bother to imply that it was finite, as we live in a universe pretty well established to be finite, which naturally limits the length of strings. I did imply that the set was non-empty, although I did not provide an example. I did not specifically state that the set of regular expressions that don't belong in production code was a *proper* subset of regular expressions, although a retarded monkey would have been able to infer it trivially, as I have posted regular expressions in the past that were part of routines I specifically said were suitable for production code, and have not posted retractions of same. > But lacking the space in his margin to scribble the tantalizing > regex, we are simply left with Fetter's Enigma. LOL! > > Anyway, I do now understand that you do not take the position that > > no regexes belong in production code. > > There is a certain school of thought which contends that only > production code belongs in production code. Superfluous drapery- > error messages, regular expressions, SQL statements, HTML templates, > javascript, and so on should all be removed from production code. ROTFLMAO! Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 18:06:06 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying thread about regexes? In-Reply-To: <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> Message-ID: <200404061606.06638.george@metaart.org> On Tuesday 06 April 2004 2:11 pm, Belden Lyman wrote: > On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 12:22, George Woolley wrote: > > On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:06 am, David Fetter wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 10:59:13PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > On Monday 05 April 2004 3:09 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:13:12PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > > > > What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > > > > > > > > > Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're all > > > > > equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > D > > > > > > > > David, > > > > Thanks for the provocative response. > > > > > > > > Based on your response, my understanding is that your position is > > > > that there are no production environments in which which it is ever > > > > appropriate to use regular expressions in production code. > > > > Is that your view? > > > > > > I don't know how you managed to get that out of what I said. In my > > > experience, *complicated* regexes don't belong in production code. > > > Multiple simple ones are a lot easier to code, debug, &c. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > D > > > > David, > > > > Oh, good. > > I'm glad that your position isn't > > that no regexes belong in production code. > > > > You seem uncertain how I managed to understand you to be saying > > that no regexes belong in production code. > > Here's how: > > * Because of the context I interpreted "they're all" > > to be referring to "all regexes". > > * I thought you were continuing with the same topic > > in the second half of that sentence > > (which has no explicit subject). > > * That led me to interpret it as something like > > "all regexes don't belong in production code" > > or an unqualified "No regexes belong in production code". > > Hope that clarifies how I managed to get that out of what you said. > > > > I haven't so far come up with an alternate interpretation. > > Hence I would be most interested in your interpretation > > of your own words. > > How about how someone else interpreted David's words? > > Here's what was written: > > George: What's the most annoying regex you've encountered? > > David: Anything that doesn't fit on one line. After that, they're > all equally annoying, and don't belong in production code. :) > > I took David to mean: > > "The most annoying regex I've encountered is anything that doesn't fit > on one line. The set of regular expressions which is longer than a > line's length is an annoying set, none of whose members belong in > production code." > > Perhaps missed by other readers, David further implies the existence of > a single regular expression which proves that the aforementioned set is > finite. But lacking the space in his margin to scribble the tantalizing > regex, we are simply left with Fetter's Enigma. > > > Anyway, I do now understand > > that you do not take the position > > that no regexes belong in production code. > > There is a certain school of thought which contends that only production > code belongs in production code. Superfluous drapery- error messages, > regular expressions, SQL statements, HTML templates, javascript, and so > on should all be removed from production code. See Class::Phrasebook, > Parse::RecDescent, and your templating module of choice. If you want to > remove production code from your production code, see also Acme::Bleach. > > Belden > > > George > > > > P.S. Thanks for not deleting the earlier parts of the thread > > in your post. > > It makes discussion much easier. === Belden, Thanks. Yours is definitely an alternate interpretation. Oh, kool, we now have Fetter's Enigma to add to our lore. I've encountered something like the point of view you describe. Do you hold a varient of that view? I just finished doing some maintenance on some code that uses several templates. That made some of the maintenance much easier. " Superfluous drapery" is an interesting phrase. If something is superfluous, why not simply dispense with it entirely? I suppose it depends on context, but I would think in many contexts if error messages are superfluous then so are people and user interfaces. Actually, I've encountered those points of view. Thanks for the reminder of the Acme modules. Weird, I don't see any of them in my SuSE distribution. I guess I'll need to download whatever I need. Anyway, eliminating production code from production code sounds optimal. Production should go really fast. And no need for specifications and testing! (^_^) Skoal, George From blyman at iii.com Tue Apr 6 18:32:23 2004 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying thread about regexes? In-Reply-To: <200404061606.06638.george@metaart.org> References: <200404051513.12814.george@metaart.org> <200404061222.26857.george@metaart.org> <1081285906.7432.215.camel@ls104> <200404061606.06638.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <1081293965.7432.260.camel@ls104> On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 16:06, George Woolley wrote: > On Tuesday 06 April 2004 2:11 pm, Belden Lyman wrote: > > > > There is a certain school of thought which contends that only production > > code belongs in production code. Superfluous drapery- error messages, > > regular expressions, SQL statements, HTML templates, javascript, and so > > on should all be removed from production code. See Class::Phrasebook, > > Parse::RecDescent, and your templating module of choice. If you want to > > remove production code from your production code, see also Acme::Bleach. > I've encountered something like > the point of view you describe. > Do you hold a varient of that view? > Donna Sacramento, caloric bean. Retract, caloric bean: retract. (Dramatic.) Bradshaw's footprint, not horizontal dilution to rehabilitate captured gunmen, but tuberculosis. Borjes, selfish, transfusable spine, viney. (Andean?) Interpolant infighting deregulates proprioceptive codetermination! Scorecard: Lorinda Staten, fifth. Mankind, prehistoric Midwesternism. From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 19:28:54 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 Message-ID: <200404061728.54617.george@metaart.org> Cut & Paste from http://oakland.pm.org .......................................... Next meeting when: Tue. April 13 at 7:30-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays.) where: Joshua Wait's place 1903 Virginia Street Apt. 3 Berkeley, CA 94709 directions: link to [Joshua's pdf map and directions] link to [George's directions and ascii map] theme: Perl and Postmodernism reference: link to [Perl, the first postmodern computer language] by Larry Wall what: introductions giveaways short talks and discussion on the theme who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. From mtheo at amural.com Tue Apr 6 20:12:48 2004 From: mtheo at amural.com (Mark Theodoropoulos) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? In-Reply-To: <200404061245.23868.george@metaart.org> References: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> Message-ID: <4072F320.30450.F99547@localhost> George writes: > Our last two meetings had to do with regexes. The next shifts to > "Perl and Postmodernism". Who knows, perhaps you'll want to give that > talk you were going to give long ago. Oh, right, five minutes, "Arnold Schoenberg, Perl hacker." Well, it fits right in with the theme. Tell you what, if there's more than one person present who recognizes the name Arnold Schoenberg and has at least a rough idea why everyone's supposed to be afraid of him, I'll do it. Oh, and some sort of minimal sound system. Nothing to be afraid of.... Mark Theodoropoulos -- producer / classics without walls the anti-warhorse zone / www.amural.com kusf 90.3fm / san francisco From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 6 23:16:57 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? > Scoenberg/Perl In-Reply-To: <4072F320.30450.F99547@localhost> References: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> <4072F320.30450.F99547@localhost> Message-ID: <200404062116.57885.george@metaart.org> On Tuesday 06 April 2004 6:12 pm, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > George writes: > > Our last two meetings had to do with regexes. The next shifts to > > "Perl and Postmodernism". Who knows, perhaps you'll want to give that > > talk you were going to give long ago. > > Oh, right, five minutes, "Arnold Schoenberg, Perl hacker." Well, it > fits right in with the theme. Tell you what, if there's more than one > person present who recognizes the name Arnold Schoenberg and has at > least a rough idea why everyone's supposed to be afraid of him, I'll do > it. Oh, and some sort of minimal sound system. Nothing to be afraid > of.... > > > Mark Theodoropoulos Mark, Excellent. -- George Josh, Do you have some sort of minimal sound system that Mark can use at the next meeting. George From george at metaart.org Wed Apr 7 00:19:57 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "Arnold Schoenberg, Perl hacker" Message-ID: <200404062219.57983.george@metaart.org> Mark, Below is Josh's reply. Is what you need in there? George. P.S. Re your requirements: (1) I'll be there and Arden plans to be there. That will satisfy your first requirement. My guess is there are a number of others in the group who satisfy your requirement related to familiarity with the Schoenberg name and why some are afraid of him. Likely a few of them will be there. (2) Josh's reply suggests he'll be able to satisfy your sound requirements. See you there. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? > Scoenberg/Perl Date: Tuesday 06 April 2004 9:11 pm From: Joshua Wait To: George Woolley Tape, CD, iPod or mp3 should work. --JOSHUA On Apr 6, 2004, at 9:16 PM, George Woolley wrote: > On Tuesday 06 April 2004 6:12 pm, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: >> George writes: >>> Our last two meetings had to do with regexes. The next shifts to >>> "Perl and Postmodernism". Who knows, perhaps you'll want to give that >>> talk you were going to give long ago. >> >> Oh, right, five minutes, "Arnold Schoenberg, Perl hacker." Well, it >> fits right in with the theme. Tell you what, if there's more than one >> person present who recognizes the name Arnold Schoenberg and has at >> least a rough idea why everyone's supposed to be afraid of him, I'll >> do >> it. Oh, and some sort of minimal sound system. Nothing to be afraid >> of.... >> >> >> Mark Theodoropoulos > > Mark, Excellent. -- George > > Josh, > Do you have some sort of minimal sound system > that Mark can use at the next meeting. > George ------------------------------------------------------- From george at metaart.org Wed Apr 7 23:35:37 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: O'Reilly Looking for GNOME Hacks Message-ID: <200404072135.37854.george@metaart.org> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: O'Reilly Looking for GNOME Hacks Date: Wednesday 07 April 2004 2:47 pm From: Marsee Henon To: george@metaart.org ... We're looking for GNOME hacks for our upcoming book, "Linux Desktop Hacks." We already have half of the book filled with KDE hacks, but no GNOME hacks! Do you know of any GNOME Hackers who could help us out? Please forward this email along. If you have a hack to share, please send 'em our way by having your members email me (marsee@oreilly.com) with "GNOME hacks" in the subject line. Don't let KDE hacks take over this book! As thanks for sharing, we'll make sure to get copies of "Linux Desktop Hacks" sent to your group shortly after publication. --Marsee From george at metaart.org Thu Apr 8 17:06:30 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Review of "Perl Medic" Message-ID: <200404081506.30011.george@metaart.org> There's a review of "Perl Medic" on the Oakland.pm site at http://oakland.pm.org/reviews/medic.html should you wish to read it. From mtheo at amural.com Fri Apr 9 00:24:10 2004 From: mtheo at amural.com (Mark Theodoropoulos) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Review of "Perl Medic" In-Reply-To: <200404081506.30011.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <4075D10A.19537.C2C7250@localhost> > There's a review of "Perl Medic" > on the Oakland.pm site > at http://oakland.pm.org/reviews/medic.html > should you wish to read it. Great timing -- I just saw this book for the first time on Sunday and picked it up immediately, because I'm about to plunge into cleaning up a huge old unwieldy CGI program sorely in need of revision; it was written four years ago by somebody else, i.e. by the four-years-ago me. Looks like just the ticket. I haven't gotten too far into the book, but I second George's positive review; just from some browsing around in it I've already got a list bristling with things to try. BTW I entirely agree with George that Hall & Schwartz, _Effective Perl programming_, is anything but an "introduction" to Perl, but I would still press it into the hands of anyone who's just past the first humps, because it is a fantastic horizon-opener even relatively early in the game. Mark Theodoropoulos -- producer / classics without walls the anti-warhorse zone / www.amural.com kusf 90.3fm / san francisco From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 9 02:31:59 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Review of "Perl Medic" In-Reply-To: <4075D10A.19537.C2C7250@localhost> References: <4075D10A.19537.C2C7250@localhost> Message-ID: <200404090031.59009.george@metaart.org> On Thursday 08 April 2004 10:24 pm, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > ... > BTW I entirely agree with George that Hall & Schwartz, _Effective Perl > programming_, is anything but an "introduction" to Perl, but I would > still press it into the hands of anyone who's just past the first > humps, because it is a fantastic horizon-opener even relatively early > in the game. And I in turn agree with that. From george at metaart.org Sat Apr 10 02:00:50 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] The WELL Message-ID: <200404100000.50662.george@metaart.org> It's come to my attention that a couple of Oakland.pm members were very active on the WELL at one time. :) Anyone else involved with the WELL at all? <<< I never was. :( From george at metaart.org Sun Apr 11 21:40:45 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 In-Reply-To: <200404061728.54617.george@metaart.org> References: <200404061728.54617.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200404111940.45889.george@metaart.org> sub-topic: giveaways There's less than usual for the "giveaways" this month. If you have excess you think someone else would like, it would be a really good time to offer it up. George On Tuesday 06 April 2004 5:28 pm, George Woolley wrote: > Cut & Paste > from http://oakland.pm.org > .......................................... > Next meeting > when: Tue. April 13 at 7:30-9:30pm. > ... > what: > introductions > giveaways <<<<<< > ... From george at metaart.org Mon Apr 12 13:55:42 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 Message-ID: <200404121155.42036.george@metaart.org> A number of people have said they are coming to the meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) evening. I'm looking forward to seeing some of you then. George ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 Date: Tuesday 06 April 2004 5:28 pm From: George Woolley To: oakland@mail.pm.org Cut & Paste from http://oakland.pm.org .......................................... Next meeting when: Tue. April 13 at 7:30-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays.) where: Joshua Wait's place 1903 Virginia Street Apt. 3 Berkeley, CA 94709 directions: link to [Joshua's pdf map and directions] link to [George's directions and ascii map] theme: Perl and Postmodernism reference: link to [Perl, the first postmodern computer language] by Larry Wall what: introductions giveaways short talks and discussion on the theme who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. ------------------------------------------------------- From george at metaart.org Tue Apr 13 15:22:43 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? Message-ID: <200404131322.43364.george@metaart.org> I believe many of you see Dr. Dobb's Journal each month. In the May issue is an article entitled "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? Anyone have any comments on this article? From david at fetter.org Tue Apr 13 15:47:06 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? In-Reply-To: <200404131322.43364.george@metaart.org> References: <200404131322.43364.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20040413204706.GA1515@fetter.org> On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 01:22:43PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > I believe > many of you see Dr. Dobb's Journal each month. > > In the May issue > is an article entitled > "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? > Anyone have any comments on this article? Is it in their pdf? Perhaps it's just me, but XP seems less like a software development methodology and more like the effects of smoking out of a glass pipe. d00d!! j00 h4v3 t0 try 3xtr33m pr0gr4mm1ng!!1!11 1t pwnz!! Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From robert-kuropkat at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 22:26:30 2004 From: robert-kuropkat at comcast.net (Robert Kuropkat) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 In-Reply-To: <200404121155.42036.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200404140326.i3E3QFj11034@mail.pm.org> Ah dammit!!! Today's tuesday!!!! urrrggggg...... Obviously I missed the meeting.... Robert Kuropkat On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:55:42 -0700, George Woolley wrote: >A number of people have said >they are coming to the meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) evening. >I'm looking forward to seeing some of you then. >George > >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > >Subject: April Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. April 13 >Date: Tuesday 06 April 2004 5:28 pm >From: George Woolley >To: oakland@mail.pm.org > >Cut & Paste >from http://oakland.pm.org >.......................................... >Next meeting >when: Tue. April 13 at 7:30-9:30pm. > (We meet 2nd Tuesdays.) >where: Joshua Wait's place > 1903 Virginia Street Apt. 3 > Berkeley, CA 94709 >directions: link to [Joshua's pdf map and directions] > link to [George's directions and ascii map] >theme: Perl and Postmodernism >reference: > link to [Perl, the first postmodern computer language] > by Larry Wall >what: > introductions > giveaways > short talks and discussion on the theme >who: open to anyone interested. >how much: no fee for our meetings. > >------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Oakland mailing list >Oakland@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From robert-kuropkat at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 22:42:33 2004 From: robert-kuropkat at comcast.net (Robert Kuropkat) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? In-Reply-To: <200404131322.43364.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200404140342.i3E3gEj11271@mail.pm.org> Interestingly, I just read it a few hours ago. I also have complaints about XP though in fairness it is not from experience or extreme knowlege of the process. In fact, I've just started reading up on it so I can understand it better. My basic complaint is the lack of documentation which I think was the most valid point of the article. To do documentation on whiteboards, napkins or whatever then throw it away just because you don't want to take the time to clean it up, keep it current and/or hire a tech writer to do that just seems childish to me. However, I do think the article made some unfair points. In one case they mentioned an example where 16 tests were added and amongst the team there was much rejoicing. Then they later took those same tests out and again, there was much rejoicing. Clearly this was a case of stupidity but I think they incorrectly blamed the process for this. NO process will filter out all stupidity, that is the domain of the team lead, or in XP speak, the Coach. This example was not a failure of the process, it was a failure of one person to do his job. The coach is the one who should have caught this and instituted a moment to go "hmmm...." and figure out why they just did a project sit-n-spin. That being said, I think having documentation would have helped catch this sort of thing rather than relying on everyone to keep everything in thier heads. So far, that is my major complaint with XP. I do wish I could work on a project that used it though so I could get some hands on experience with it.... Robert Kuropkat P.S. FWIW, I have also read the author's book on Use Case Object Model Driven Development which is an approach I would also like to try out sometime... On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:22:43 -0700, George Woolley wrote: >I believe >many of you see Dr. Dobb's Journal each month. > >In the May issue >is an article entitled >"The Irony of Extreme Programming"? >Anyone have any comments >on this article? > >_______________________________________________ >Oakland mailing list >Oakland@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From robert-kuropkat at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 23:02:00 2004 From: robert-kuropkat at comcast.net (Robert Kuropkat) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? In-Reply-To: <20040413204706.GA1515@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200404140401.i3E41ej11469@mail.pm.org> I don't think there is **too** much smoking in the sense I think they have a legitement complaint. Software development is not able to move fast enough and expecting people to know what they want all up front is truly a pipe dream. Development methodologies do in fact need to be more agile. I just don't think they have solved as many problems with thier process as they think they have... Robert Kuropkat On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:47:06 -0700, David Fetter wrote: >On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 01:22:43PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: >> I believe >> many of you see Dr. Dobb's Journal each month. >> >> In the May issue >> is an article entitled >> "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? >> Anyone have any comments on this article? > >Is it in their pdf? > >Perhaps it's just me, but XP seems less like a software development >methodology and more like the effects of smoking out of a glass pipe. > >d00d!! j00 h4v3 t0 try 3xtr33m pr0gr4mm1ng!!1!11 1t pwnz!! > >Cheers, >D >-- >David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ >phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 > >Remember to vote! >_______________________________________________ >Oakland mailing list >Oakland@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From extasia at extasia.org Wed Apr 14 09:30:09 2004 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] SIG-BEER-WEST this Saturday 4/17 in San Francisco Message-ID: <20040414073009.A6794@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SIG-beer-west Saturday, April 17, 2004 at 6:00pm San Francisco, CA Beer. Mental stimulation. This event: Saturday, 04/17/2004, 6:00pm, at the Zeitgeist Bar and Guest Haus, San Francisco Coming events (third Saturdays): Saturday, 05/15/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 06/19/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 07/17/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 08/21/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined San Francisco's next social event for techies and their friends, sig-beer-west, will take place at 6:00pm on Saturday, April 17, 2004 at Zeitgeist Bar and Guest Haus[3] located at 199 Valencia at Duboce[4] in San Francisco, CA. [3] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/ [4] http://tinyurl.com/2hacx According to their website, Zeitgeist has: plenty of drafts, mostly micro-brewed beers,[5] a good selection of call liquors, a beer garden, and hotel accomodation [5] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/#Beers Concerning food, they say: the grill opens around 6.00 p.m. each day and closes when everyone's fed (or Aundre's fed up) Festivities will start at 6:00pm and continue until we've all left. Zeitgeist is on the corner of Valencia and Duboce[6] and looks like this.[7] It's three blocks from the 16th St BART station[8] (16th St and Mission). [6] http://tinyurl.com/2hacx [7] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/exterior.html [8] http://tinyurl.com/3f8mp When you show up, you should look for some kind of home made sig-beer-west sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are. :-) Note: Please look for the sig-beer-west sign, not for a particular person. sig-beer-west may have different hosts from month to month. Everyone is welcome at this event. We mean it! Please feel free to forward this information and to invite friends, co-workers, and others (all of legal drinking age) who might enjoy lifting a glass with interesting folks from all over the place. Can't come this month? Mark your calendar for next month. (Do it now before you forget!) sig-beer-west occurs on the third Saturday of each month. Any questions, comments, suggestions of things to do later on that evening, or new venue suggestions ... email the current sig-beer-west Instigator. The Instigator's Username is extasia. The Instigator's email address is *the Username* at *the Username* dot *org*. sig-beer-west FAQ 1. Q: Your announcement says "techies and their friends". How do I know if I'm a techie, or a friend of one? A: Well, actually, you don't have to be a techie to attend. You just have to be able to find the sig-beer-west sign at this month's event. That's it. Simple, huh? 2. Q: I'm not really a beer person. In fact I'm interested in hanging out, but not in drinking. Would I be welcome? A: Absolutely! The point is to hang out with fun, interesting folks. Please do join us. 3. Q: Is parking difficult in the city, like maybe I should factor this into my travel time? A: Yes. Note for April 2004: Zeitgeist is three blocks from 16th St BART.[9] You may want to consider BARTing[10] and not worrying at all about parking. [9] http://tinyurl.com/3f8mp [10] http://www.bart.gov/ __________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west was started in February 2002 when a couple Washington, D.C. based systems administrators who moved to the San Francisco Bay area wanted to continue a dc-sage[11] tradition, sig-beer, which is described in dc-sage web space as: SIG-beer, as in "Special Interest Group - Beer" ala ACM, or as in "send the BEER signal to that process". [11] http://www.dc-sage.org/ The original SIG-beer gathering takes place in Washington DC, usually on the first Saturday night of the month. __________________________________________________________________ Last modified: $Date: 2004/04/13 00:12:43 $ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAfUqDPh0M9c/OpdARAjuJAKCdcO52hzkUyOq+4kq/MHt92a5FlQCgjebL zL/CLHO2viS5VRoVhl88Oqw= =D3Ue -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From david at fetter.org Wed Apr 14 16:46:31 2004 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? In-Reply-To: <200404140401.i3E41ej11469@mail.pm.org> References: <20040413204706.GA1515@fetter.org> <200404140401.i3E41ej11469@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <20040414214631.GA6490@fetter.org> On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 09:02:00PM -0700, Robert Kuropkat wrote: > I don't think there is **too** much smoking in the sense I think > they have a legitement complaint. It's not the XP critics that are smoking crack; it's the XP advocates. > Software development is not able to move fast enough and expecting > people to know what they want all up front is truly a pipe dream. So it is. That is why you agree upon a change order process up front. When a change order comes in, the people involved work together to assess the affects on the schedule (yes, a schedule!) and the budget (what? people don't have infinite, or even indefinite amounts of money to spend?!?), and then both parties sign off on said change order, which includes the revised schedule and budget. > Development methodologies do in fact need to be more agile. That's great, but XP isn't agile. It's fragile and doesn't deliver. > I just don't think they have solved as many problems with thier > process as they think they have... The only problem the XP people have solved is...come to think of it, I can't think of a single problem they've *actually* solved. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From george at metaart.org Wed Apr 14 20:00:49 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Many Thanks to Tony Stubblebine Message-ID: <200404141800.49273.george@metaart.org> Tony, Thanks for being the speaker at our March meeting and for being our guest on the mailing list for a month. Personally, I've learned much from * your book "Regular Expression Pocket Reference" * your article "Five Habits for Successful Regular Expressions" * your talk "Regular Expression Best Practices" at the March meeting * following the posts regarding regex while you've been our guest Please feel free to stick around or not as suits you. George From robert-kuropkat at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 23:30:36 2004 From: robert-kuropkat at comcast.net (Robert Kuropkat) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] "The Irony of Extreme Programming"? In-Reply-To: <20040414214631.GA6490@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200404150430.i3F4UIe24715@mail.pm.org> On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:46:31 -0700, David Fetter wrote: >On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 09:02:00PM -0700, Robert Kuropkat wrote: > >> I don't think there is **too** much smoking in the sense I think >> they have a legitement complaint. > >It's not the XP critics that are smoking crack; it's the XP advocates. > >> Software development is not able to move fast enough and expecting >> people to know what they want all up front is truly a pipe dream. > >So it is. That is why you agree upon a change order process up front. >When a change order comes in, the people involved work together to >assess the affects on the schedule (yes, a schedule!) and the budget >(what? people don't have infinite, or even indefinite amounts of >money to spend?!?), and then both parties sign off on said change >order, which includes the revised schedule and budget. > >From what I've read so far, XP does not disagree with this. In fact, it seems to me they are very much in agreement with this. But having a process, agreed upon or not does not necessarily make it fast or good. I've seen plenty of "processes" that do nothing more than slow things down and stonewall changes in general. Yet everyone is in agreement on the "process" to make, approve, schedule and even budget changes... >> Development methodologies do in fact need to be more agile. > >That's great, but XP isn't agile. It's fragile and doesn't deliver. So are we speaking from experience? If so, I'd like to hear more... > >> I just don't think they have solved as many problems with thier >> process as they think they have... > >The only problem the XP people have solved is...come to think of it, I >can't think of a single problem they've *actually* solved. > >Cheers, >D >-- >David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ >phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 > >Remember to vote! >_______________________________________________ >Oakland mailing list >Oakland@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 16 11:18:35 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:39 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Addison Wesley User Group Member Discount Message-ID: <200404160918.35587.george@metaart.org> What: discount of up to 35% on Addison Wesley & Prentice Hall PTR books See: http://www.pm.org/AW-UGcoupon.pdf From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 16 11:45:18 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 15 Message-ID: <200404160945.18830.george@metaart.org> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 15 Date: Thursday 15 April 2004 6:00 pm From: marsee@oreilly.com To: george@metaart.org ... ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members April 15, 2004 ================================================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Linux Unwired -High Performance MySQL -Jeff Duntemann's Wi-Fi Guide, Second Edition -Oracle PL/SQL Language Pocket Reference, 3rd Edition -The GNOME 2 Developer's Guide -qmail -Access Cookbook, 2nd Edition -The Spam Letters ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Mac User Group Day at O'Reilly in Sebastopol, CA--April 24 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Conference News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Registration Is Open for OSCON 2004 -O'Reilly Open Source Convention Early Bird Discount Ends June 18 ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Your O'Reilly Account: New Single Sign On -Virtual Book Signings -Planning for Disaster Recovery on LAMP Systems -Data Mining Email -Managing Packages on Panther with DarwinPorts -Launchers for Mac OS X -Panther Command-Line Tools: The Missing Manpages -Getting Connected While on the Road Using Infrared or Bluetooth -Hacking Windows Server -Java and Security, Part 1 -Wiring Your Web Application with Open Source Java -VSJ Reader Awards 2004 -New Language Features in C# 2.0 -O'Reilly Learning Lab's .NET Certificate Series ---------------------------------------------------------------- News From Your Peers ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Photos from recent UG events on the O'Reilly User Group Wiki ================================================ Book News ================================================ Did you know you can request a free book to review for your group? 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Logging into the new system is quick and easy; details on how to do it have been emailed to you, and you can read more about O'Reilly's single sign on in Tony Stubblebine's weblog. http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4692 ***Virtual Book Signings Snaggy & Nitrozac are back this week offering their brand of humor and technical know-how to the use of video conferencing technology. They've used their virtual book signing events to demonstrate the power of iSight and iChat AV, but their aim is to spark your creative juices to find other ways to apply these technologies, perhaps to connect with friends and family around the world, or perhaps for use in your own business. Snaggy & Nitrozac are the authors of "The Best of the Joy of Tech." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/13/virtualbooksigning.html --------------------- Open Source --------------------- ***Planning for Disaster Recovery on LAMP Systems The beauty of LAMP systems is that you can develop them as formally or informally as you like. Unfortunately, when it comes time to plan for disaster recovery, that informality can work against you. Robert Jones presents several guidelines for development and configuration that can make recovery easier. http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2004/04/08/disaster_recovery.html ***Data Mining Email Thousands of useful facts lie inaccessible on your hard drive, hidden within email messages and attachments. How much more productive would you be if you could extract, index, and search that information? Robert Bernier demonstrates how to store data from emails into a database, where you can use data-mining techniques to analyze it. http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2004/04/08/datamining_email.html --------------------- Mac --------------------- ***Managing Packages on Panther with DarwinPorts Ernest E. Rothman provides an overview along with installation and update instructions for DarwinPorts, one of Mac OS X's many packaging options. Ernest is a coauthor of "Mac OS X Panther for Unix Geeks." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/09/darwinports.html ***Launchers for Mac OS X LaunchBar is the best known Finder enhancer on the platform, but there are many noteworthy challengers, including Quicksilver. Giles Turnbull test drives a few launchers and gives a report. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/09/launchers.html ***Panther Command-Line Tools: The Missing Manpages Finally, Mac OS X system administrators and developers have a quick reference to the command-line utilities that have missing, incomplete, or inaccurate manpages. Find the command syntax, a brief description, and the command's directory location in Appendix B of "Mac OS X Panther for Unix Geeks." If you like this chapter, read the whole book (and up to nine others) on Safari with a trial subscription. https://secure.safaribooksonline.com/promo.asp?code=ORA14&portal=oreilly&CMP= BAC-TP2974244892 --------------------- Windows --------------------- ***Getting Connected While on the Road Using Infrared or Bluetooth The always-on Internet: How to connect to the Internet using your mobile phone, laptop, and infrared or Bluetooth. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/04/06/on_road_connect.html ***Hacking Windows Server Mitch Tulloch has gathered 100 hacks in his "Windows Server Hacks" book to help system administrators master the more powerful features of Windows Server. To provide a real look at what these hacks can help you do, we offer three excerpts here: How to use an ADSI-based script to search for domain users; how to use the Hyena utility to quickly find out which user on your network has a particular file open; and how to locate all machines that have automatic logon enabled in their registry. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/excerpt/winserverhacks_chap03/i ndex.html --------------------- Java --------------------- ***Java and Security, Part 1 In part one in a two-part series of excerpts from Chapter 17 of "WebLogic: The Definitive Guide," authors Avinash Chugh and Jon Mountjoy examine WebLogic's various security mechanisms, beginning with a look at the Java Security Manager and how WebLogic filters connection requests. They also cover WebLogic's authentication and authorization framework and how it supports the standard J2EE security services. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/excerpt/weblogic_chap17/index.html ***Wiring Your Web Application with Open Source Java Building a web application with Java can be a complex process when architecting a combination of UI, business logic, and persistence. This article introduces a way to leverage open source software to lessen the burden. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/04/07/wiringwebapps.html --------------------- .NET --------------------- ***VSJ Reader Awards 2004 O'Reilly is among the winners of this year's VSJ Reader Awards, holding favored status in two categories: Best Book publisher for Developers, and Book of the Year for Jesse Liberty's "Programming C#." http://www.vsj.co.uk/survey/ "Programming C#, 3rd Edition," by Jesse Liberty ISBN: 0-596-00489-3 http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progcsharp3/ ***New Language Features in C# 2.0 Four years ago, a new upstart language named C# surprised the development world with its elegance and consistency. Now that Microsoft has released a technology preview version of Visual Studio 2005 (formerly codenamed Whidbey), .NET's favorite language is back, with some new innovations. In this two-part servies by Matthew MacDonald, you'll get a first look at three of the four major language refinements in the latest version of C#. Part One: http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/05/csharpwhidbeypt1.html Part Two: http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/12/csharpwhidbeypt2.html ***O'Reilly Learning Lab's .NET Certificate Series Learn .NET programming skills and earn a .NET Programming Certificate from the University of Illinois Office of Continuing Education. The .NET Certificate Series is comprised of three courses that give you the foundation you need to do .NET programming well. The courses are: Learn XML; Learn Object-Oriented Programming Using Java; and Learn C#. Limited time offer: Enroll in all three courses and save $895. http://oreilly.useractive.com/courses/dotnet.php3 ================================================ News From Your Peers ================================================ ***Photos from recent UG events on the O'Reilly User Group Wiki We've added a "Past Events" section on the UGEvents page to share photos and highlights from recent events. Check out David Pogue's visit to Gloucester County College, NJ and photos from Miquel de Icaza's LUG presentation at Novell's Brainshare, Salt Lake City, UT. http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/topics?UGEvents You can also look for a meeting or user group, or post info any time you want. http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/view?HomePage Until next time-- Marsee ------------------------------------------------------- From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 16 20:38:10 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Apocalypse 12 Message-ID: <200404161838.10038.george@metaart.org> http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/04/16/a12.html From george at metaart.org Wed Apr 21 12:26:41 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. May 11th Message-ID: <200404211026.41691.george@metaart.org> Note: *not* at Josh's in May. Snip from Oakland.pm website at http://oakland.pm.org/ ....................................... Next meeting when: Tue. May 11th at 7:30pm (on 2nd Tuesdays since Dec. 2002) where: Connie's Cantina 3340 Grand Ave. Oakland CA 94610 (a Mexican restaurant) directions: [link to] George's directions and ascii map what: informal meeting at restaurant activities: introductions giveaways informal discussion, conversations eating ... who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. (However, please order something, just a soda, if you wish.) From george at metaart.org Thu Apr 22 17:57:15 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] PBML? Message-ID: <200404221557.15276.george@metaart.org> I, and apparently at least one other person, have had problems accessing the PBML Info page. Anyone know anything about the status of PBML? Anyone in contact with Mike Lewis, the host of PBML? George Some Possibly Relevant Occurrences: 2004-04-19 to 22 repeated attempts to access PBML Info Page have failed. 2004-04-16 last time I successfully accessed the PBML Info page. 2004-04-14 date of last message I've received from PBML. From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 23 19:10:01 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Brief Profiles - update? Message-ID: <200404231710.01418.george@metaart.org> I request that people who have brief profiles on our site review them and request changes as appropriate. The brief profiles are at http://oakland.pm.org/detail/members.html I believe some of them are out of date. George From george at metaart.org Sun Apr 25 01:34:38 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] PBML? In-Reply-To: <200404221557.15276.george@metaart.org> References: <200404221557.15276.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200404242334.38557.george@metaart.org> PBML is up again. I can see the Info page and the archive and I just sent a test message and the mailing list appropriately sent me back a copy. If it's still not working for you or if you see something amiss, please speak up. Mike moved across town (Las Vegas) last week. I gather that IPs changed and DNS couldn't find Mike's machines until sometime this morning. Anyway, I'm glad PBML is back up, and I'm glad to be back in contact with Mike. George On Thursday 22 April 2004 3:57 pm, George Woolley wrote: > I, and apparently at least one other person, > have had problems accessing the PBML Info page. > Anyone know anything about the status of PBML? > Anyone in contact with Mike Lewis, > the host of PBML? > George > > Some Possibly Relevant Occurrences: > 2004-04-19 to 22 repeated attempts to access PBML Info Page have failed. > 2004-04-16 last time I successfully accessed the PBML Info page. > 2004-04-14 date of last message I've received from PBML. > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From george at metaart.org Mon Apr 26 01:25:58 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Perl 6 Rules Message-ID: <200404252325.58820.george@metaart.org> The subject of this email could be * a rough synonym of "Perl 6 Rocks" or "Perl 6 Is Cool" * a reference to what has replaced regexes in Perl 6 * a lead in to a discussion of context and ambiguity Which is it? I guess I'm called on to choose. Or maybe not. 'Tsall good in the Perl 6 domain. Things are moving faster than I expected. It looks like we'll get a 2nd edition of Perl 6 Essentials later this year. According to the O'Reilly site, the title will be "Perl 6 & Parrot Essentials", 2nd Edition and the projected release date is June 2004. One of the things that is supposed to be included is expanded coverage of Perl 6 rules (i.e. the Perl 6 replacement for regexes). And now that Larry Wall has come out with Apocalypse 12, there can be good coverage of objects. Given how ambiguous English is, it's amazing we 're still around. Or maybe that's because of the ambiguities. I think Heidi had it right: "'Tsall good." From george at metaart.org Mon Apr 26 13:17:22 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] review of "Linux Pocket Guide" Message-ID: <200404261117.22136.george@metaart.org> There's a review of "Linux Pocket Guide" on the Oakland.pm site at http://oakland.pm.org/reviews/linuxpg.html should you wish to read it. George P.S. I also put the short version of the review on the O'Reilly site. From george at metaart.org Mon Apr 26 17:04:40 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. May 11th [+rsvp] Message-ID: <200404261504.40395.george@metaart.org> Re the meeting at Connie's Cantina in May, please RSVP no later than noon Sat. May 8th. Actually, you can RSVP any time starting now. George ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [oak perl] Oakland.pm Meeting: Tue. May 11th Date: Wednesday 21 April 2004 10:26 am From: George Woolley To: oakland@mail.pm.org Note: *not* at Josh's in May. Snip from Oakland.pm website at http://oakland.pm.org/ ....................................... Next meeting when: Tue. May 11th at 7:30pm (on 2nd Tuesdays since Dec. 2002) where: Connie's Cantina 3340 Grand Ave. Oakland CA 94610 (a Mexican restaurant) directions: [link to] George's directions and ascii map what: informal meeting at restaurant activities: introductions giveaways informal discussion, conversations eating ... who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. (However, please order something, just a soda, if you wish.) Later Addition ...................... rsvp: by noon Sat. May 8th From george at metaart.org Thu Apr 29 15:49:16 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 29 Message-ID: <200404291349.16830.george@metaart.org> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, April 29 Date: Thursday 29 April 2004 11:28 am From: Marsee Henon ... ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members April 29, 2004 ================================================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Eclipse -Learning Red Hat Enterprise Linux & Fedora, 4th Edition -WarDriving: Drive, Detect, Defend ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Matthew Gast, ("802.11 Wireless Networks: The Definitive Guide" & "Network Printing"), Networld+Interop, Las Vegas, NV--May 9-14 -Chuck Toporek, O'Reilly Mac editor and author ("Inside .Mac & Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell"), Apple Store, San Francisco, CA--May 14 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Conference News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -OSCON discounts for non-UG members -O'Reilly Open Source Convention Early Bird Discount Ends June 18 ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Tell us what you really think--take our US catalog survey -SafariU: Create, Customize, and Share Teaching Material -"Hacking the Xbox" featured in "Popular Science Magazine" -The Fuss About Gmail and Privacy: Nine Reasons Why It's Bogus -Apocalypse 12 -Getting the Most Out of XMMS -Profiling LAMP Applications with Apache's Blackbox Logs -Mad Macs and the Unshredder -BBEdit: Its Unix Support Doesn't Suck Either, Part 1 -GarageBand for the Musical Newbie -Using Excel's Calendar Controls -Perfect Text Editors for Coders -Declarative Programming in Java -New Features in VB.NET Whidbey, Part 1 -DataGrids, Improved ---------------------------------------------------------------- News From Your Peers ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Need help finding local speakers or want to be a speaker? ================================================ Book News ================================================ Did you know you can request a free book to review for your group? Ask your group leader for more information. For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to: http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, or Syngress book you purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. http://www.oreilly.com/ ***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico. For more details, go to: http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Releases ---------------------------------------------------------------- ***Eclipse Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006411 "Eclipse" is a fast-track approach to mastery of Eclipse. It's a tightly focused book that examines all aspects of Eclipse: the menus, preferences, views, perspectives, editors, team, and debugging methods, and how they're used every day by thousands of developers. Eclipse covers hundreds of techniques, from the most basic Java development to creating your own plugin editors for the Eclipse environment. Development of practical skills is emphasized with dozens of hands-on examples that get down to business. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/eclipse/ Chapter 9, "Web Development," is available free online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/eclipse/chapter/index.html ***Learning Red Hat Enterprise Linux & Fedora, 4th Edition Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600589X This book provides a clear, no-nonsense introduction to the Red Hat distribution of Linux. It takes you through installation and shows you the key parts of the system, always with an eye toward what can go wrong and what you need to know to get over the humps. New in this edition are installation instructions and package updating for Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, and information on the GRUB bootloader and the CUPS printer system. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnredhatentlnx/ Chapter 10, "Connecting to the Internet," is available free online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnredhatentlnx/chapter/index.html ***WarDriving: Drive, Detect, Defend Publisher: Syngress ISBN: 1931836035 This book educates users of wireless networks as well as those who run the networks about the insecurities associated with wireless networking. This effort is called WarDriving. In order to successfully WarDrive there are hardware and software tools required. This book covers those tools, along with cost estimates and recommendations. Since there are hundreds of possible configurations that can be used for WarDriving, some of the most popular are presented to help readers decide what to buy for their own WarDriving setup. Many of the tools that a WarDriver uses are the same tools that could be used by an attacker to gain unauthorized access to a wireless network. Since this is not the goal of a WarDriver, the methodology that users can use to ethically WarDrive is presented. In addition, complete coverage of WarDriving applications, such as NetStumbler, MiniStumbler, and Kismet, are covered. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1931836035/ ================================================ Upcoming Events ================================================ ***For more events, please see: http://events.oreilly.com/ ***Matthew Gast ("802.11 Wireless Networks: The Definitive Guide" & "Network Printing") Networld+Interop--May 9-14 Matthew presents his LAN Access Security--Wireless and Wired class for the Interop Labs this year in Las Vegas, NV. Please make sure to visit Matthew at the show bookstore Tuesday, May 11th 10:30am-11am and Wednesday, May 12th 5pm-5:30pm. http://www.interop.com/ ***Chuck Toporek, O'Reilly Mac editor and author ("Inside .Mac & Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell"), at SF Apple Store--May 14 Chuck is a special guest speaker at the San Francisco Apple Store. http://www.apple.com/retail/sanfrancisco/ ================================================ Conference News ================================================ ***OSCON discounts for non-UG members. Here is a list of the current discounts we offer in addition to our User Group discount. Please let your friends/co-workers know! (Please Note: We will always provide the highest possible discount. However, the following discounts cannot be combined--this includes the UG discount. However they can be used with the Early Bird pricing which ends June 18.) *Company Team Discount--10% off per person if you register 3 or more people from one company. *Full-Time Student--65% off with proof of status, a copy of ID & class schedule. *Academic Instructor--50% off with proof of full time academic instructor status on organization letterhead. *Academic Staff--25% off with proof of full time academic employee status on organization letterhead. *Federal Government Discount--10% off with proof of agency connection. *Alumni--Have you attended one of our O'Reilly conferences? If so, you are eligible for a 20% alumni discount. For more discount information, or to register with these discounts, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/29/register.html ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention Early Bird Discount Ends June 18 User Group members who register before June 18, 2004 get a double discount. Use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20% off the "Early Bird" price. To register, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/ord_os04 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Portland Marriott Downtown Portland, OR July 26-30, 2004 http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ================================================ News From O'Reilly & Beyond ================================================ --------------------- General News --------------------- ***Tell us what you really think--take our US catalog survey We'd like to get your feedback about how you use our US catalog. We've got an online survey posted that takes about 5-8 minutes to complete. We'd really appreciate your input. And you can enter to win our new "History of Programming Languages" poster. Thanks for your help. http://www.zoomerang.com/recipient/survey-intro.zgi?p=WEB2GXTFYX9H ***SafariU: Create, Customize, and Share Teaching Material Are you a teacher or trainer? Looking for a way to truly customize your course textbook and offer students exactly the material you choose to teach, while saving them a good bit of money? Become a SafariU beta tester and check out the new web-based publishing platform from O'Reilly that allows you to create custom textbooks and online syllabi. http://academic.oreilly.com/safariu-more.csp To see SafariU in action, register to join SafariU's developers for a live webcast: https://secure.commpartners.com/eventmanager/form.php?user=OReilly&id=1 ***"Hacking the Xbox" featured in "Popular Science Magazine" Read the article featuring Andrew "bunnie" Huang's book on their site: http://www.popsci.com/popsci/computers/article/0,12543,611099,00.html Hacking the Xbox: An Introduction to Reverse Engineering Publisher: No Starch Press ISBN: 1593270291 http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270291/ ***The Fuss About Gmail and Privacy: Nine Reasons Why It's Bogus Tim says in his current weblog "There's been a lot of fuss about the privacy implications of gmail, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks." http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4707 --------------------- Open Source --------------------- ***Apocalypse 12 Larry Wall writes, "Some people will be surprised to hear it, but Perl is a minimalist language at heart." Here he explains how objects and classes are supposed to work in Perl 6. http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/04/16/a12.html Join Larry and Damian Conway this July in Portland for their OSCON session on Perl 6. http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/view/e_sess/5046 ***Getting the Most Out of XMMS XMMS (X Multimedia System), available with just about every Linux distro, is simple enough to use, yet many users fail to reach below the surface and take advantage of its many capabilities. In this article, Rickford Grant takes you from the basics of using XMMS to its more advanced features, such as creating playlists, playing Internet radio broadcast streams, and more. Rickford is the author of "Linux for Non-Geeks" from No Starch Press. http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/04/15/xmms_tips.html Linux for Non-Geeks A Hands-On, Project-Based, Take-It-Slow, and Have-Some-Fun Guidebook Publisher: No Starch Press ISBN: 1593270348 http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270348/ ***Profiling LAMP Applications with Apache's Blackbox Logs Benchmarking LAMP sites can be tricky; how do you know which pages or applications need tuning? Fortunately, you can easily tune your Apache logs to provide more useful profiling information. Chris Josephes explains a Blackbox log format for Apache http. http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/apache/2004/04/22/blackbox_logs.html --------------------- Mac --------------------- ***Mad Macs and the Unshredder Maybe Apple Computer should avoid all that nasty litigation with Apple Corps and simply change its name. How about Mad Macs? Michael Swaine thinks outside of the music box. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/27/swaine.html ***BBEdit: Its Unix Support Doesn't Suck Either, Part 1 In this first article of a two-part series, Kevin O'Malley introduces you to BBEdit's Unix support features. He also includes a nifty hack for listing the songs on your iPod, copying songs from your iPod to iTunes, and playing a song in iTunes--all from within BBEdit. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/27/bbedit_pt1.html ***GarageBand for the Musical Newbie If you don't play an instrument but you have a good ear, a G4 laptop, and GarageBand, can you create an interesting song? Giles Turnbull explores. Whether you're a maestro or a newbie, you'll be able to turn inspiration into demos with the help of O'Reilly's upcoming "GarageBand: The Missing Manual." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/04/20/garageband.html --------------------- Windows --------------------- ***Using Excel's Calendar Controls Entering dates incorrectly in an Excel spreadsheet can affect calculations, charts, or pivot tables based on those dates. Dave and Raina Hawley, authors of "Excel Hacks," show how to use the standard Calendar Control to make dates easy for users to enter and to ensure that the dates are entered correctly. They also show how to use an Advanced Calendar Control to add or subtract days, weeks, or months from within a calendar. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/04/27/excelhacks.html Excel Hacks ISBN: 059600625X http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/excelhks/ ***Perfect Text Editors for Coders Tired of wimpy and all-but-useless Notepad and WordPad? Get the three best text editors on the planet with special features for coders--and they're all free or shareware. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/04/20/editors.html --------------------- Java --------------------- ***Declarative Programming in Java JSR-175 introduces Java annotations, a means of attaching metadata to your Java classes. Narayanan Jayaratchagan looks at how annotations work in J2SE 1.5 and the many ways in which they can be used. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/04/21/declarative.html --------------------- .NET --------------------- ***New Features in VB.NET Whidbey, Part 1 Microsoft has recently released the Community Preview of the next Visual Studio .NET, Whidbey. One of the enhancements in Whidbey is the new, improved VB.NET language. Wei-Meng Lee shows you what's in store with the new language.features.http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/26/vbnet20_pt1 .html ***DataGrids, Improved In Jesse Liberty's book "Programming ASP.NET," he was unable to begin the discussion of DataGrids without first describing, in some detail, the ADO.NET object model, including DataAdapters, DataTables, DataSets and DataReaders. In this, the first column on Whidbey, he shows how to use Whidbey's new ASP.NET DataGrids. http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/19/liberty.html Programming ASP.NET, 2nd Edition ISBN: 0596004877 http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progaspdotnet2/index.html ================================================ News From Your Peers ================================================ ***Need help finding local speakers or want to be a speaker? Check out the O'Reilly User Group wiki site for help: UGSuggestions http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/null?UGSuggestions UGNeeds http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/null?UGNeeds O'Reilly User Group Wiki http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi Until next time-- Marsee ------------------------------------------------------- From george at metaart.org Fri Apr 30 21:17:05 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:40 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Most Annoying Regex? > Perl & Schoenberg In-Reply-To: <4072F320.30450.F99547@localhost> References: <407298D0.1083.1321661A@localhost> <4072F320.30450.F99547@localhost> Message-ID: <200404301917.05991.george@metaart.org> Mark did in fact give the long awaited talk on Perl & Schoenberg -- with audio examples. I was previously unaware of Schoenberg's versatility or his big influence on cartoon music. And in the article "Wherefore Art, Thou", Larry Wall has related Perl to cartoon music: "... What music is Perl? Why, cartoon music, of course." Hm. ... On Tuesday 06 April 2004 6:12 pm, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > George writes: > > Our last two meetings had to do with regexes. The next shifts to > > "Perl and Postmodernism". Who knows, perhaps you'll want to give that > > talk you were going to give long ago. > > Oh, right, five minutes, "Arnold Schoenberg, Perl hacker." Well, it > fits right in with the theme. Tell you what, if there's more than one > person present who recognizes the name Arnold Schoenberg and has at > least a rough idea why everyone's supposed to be afraid of him, I'll do > it. Oh, and some sort of minimal sound system. Nothing to be afraid > of.... > > > Mark Theodoropoulos