From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 2 13:53:26 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] June Meeting - Lightning Talks? Message-ID: <200306021153.26003.george@metaart.org> The talk at our June 10th meeting relates to LWP. Would anyone like/be willing to give a lightning talk (max 5 minutes) somehow related to LWP? George About Lightning Talks .................................. http://perl.plover.com/lt/lightning-talks.html Meeting Announcement from http://oakland.pm.org/ ...................................... Come to our next meeting: when: Tue. June 10, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) where: Arden Schaeffer's place 413 61st Street, Oakland CA directions: original, Arden's what: introductions lightning talk(s) talk: "Using User Agents to defend a Domain Name" ... main speaker: Dan Meriwether who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. From george at metaart.org Thu Jun 5 21:13:56 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Open Source Books to Lend In-Reply-To: <200305052222.46421.george@metaart.org> References: <200305052222.46421.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306051913.56251.george@metaart.org> Oakland.pm owns two books related to the Open Source movement; * "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" by many authors * "Free as in Freedom: Richard Stallman's Crusade for Free Software" by Sam Williams Both of them are available for loan. The plan is to have both of these books at the June meeting for transfer. Anyone interested in borrowing one of them? Anyone need more information? George From george at metaart.org Thu Jun 5 21:28:19 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out In-Reply-To: <200305052222.46421.george@metaart.org> References: <200305052222.46421.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306051928.19827.george@metaart.org> I plan to bring an O'Reilly tee shirt and an O'Reilly 25th Anniversary Calendar to give out at the June meeting. Likely we'll have a lottery to determine who get's them, ideally using Perl code to determine the winners. It's no big deal, but still could be fun. Oh, yeah, we have them due to our involvement in the O'Reilly User Group program and because Marsee sent them when I asked. O'Reilly has been quite good to us. George From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 6 00:34:38 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Tue. June 10 Meeting Message-ID: <200306052234.38056.george@metaart.org> cut and paste of Meeting Announcement from http://oakland.pm.org/ ...................................... Come to our next meeting: when: Tue. June 10, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) where: Arden Schaeffer's place 413 61st Street, Oakland CA directions: original, Arden's what: introductions lightning talk(s) talk: "Using User Agents to defend a Domain Name" ... main speaker: Dan Meriwether who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. From blyman at iii.com Fri Jun 6 12:19:13 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out References: <200305052222.46421.george@metaart.org> <200306051928.19827.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <3EE0CD11.1090208@iii.com> George Woolley wrote: > I plan to bring an O'Reilly tee shirt > and an O'Reilly 25th Anniversary Calendar > to give out at the June meeting. > Likely we'll have a lottery to determine who get's them, > ideally using Perl code to determine the winners. > It's no big deal, but still could be fun. > There was an article on perl.com about this not too long ago... http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/10/footpool.html Belden From robert-kuropkat at attbi.com Fri Jun 6 12:22:03 2003 From: robert-kuropkat at attbi.com (robert-kuropkat@attbi.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out Message-ID: <200306061722.h56HMBi30403@mail.pm.org> That was darned amusing! I'm going to have to look at the Quantum::Superpositions module sometime later. Maybe it can somehow be used in automatic bug fixing ... :) Robert Kuropkat > > > George Woolley wrote: > > I plan to bring an O'Reilly tee shirt > > and an O'Reilly 25th Anniversary Calendar > > to give out at the June meeting. > > Likely we'll have a lottery to determine who get's them, > > ideally using Perl code to determine the winners. > > It's no big deal, but still could be fun. > > > > There was an article on perl.com about this not > too long ago... > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/10/footpool.html > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From blyman at iii.com Fri Jun 6 12:42:12 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:31 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out References: <200306061722.h56HMBi30403@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <3EE0D274.2080407@iii.com> robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > That was darned amusing! I'm going to have to look at the > Quantum::Superpositions module sometime later. Maybe it can somehow be used in > automatic bug fixing ... :) > > Robert Kuropkat > Automatic bug fixing? Have fun with the halting problem :) Belden From robert-kuropkat at attbi.com Fri Jun 6 13:06:41 2003 From: robert-kuropkat at attbi.com (robert-kuropkat@attbi.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out Message-ID: <200306061806.h56I6oi30570@mail.pm.org> Well, being a Super Genius I should be able to use some of the Acme modules to take care of it... Robert "Wile E. Coyote" Kuropkat P.S. This does sort of bring up the philisophical question: If there's a bug in the program but there's no one on-call, is the program really broken? > > > robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > > That was darned amusing! I'm going to have to look at the > > Quantum::Superpositions module sometime later. Maybe it can somehow be used > in > > automatic bug fixing ... :) > > > > Robert Kuropkat > > > > Automatic bug fixing? Have fun with the halting problem :) > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From cpm at bitbucket.com Fri Jun 6 13:19:23 2003 From: cpm at bitbucket.com (Craig McLaughlin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Two Goodies to Give Out In-Reply-To: <200306061806.h56I6oi30570@mail.pm.org> References: <200306061806.h56I6oi30570@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <1054923564.3728.79.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> Depends... if I'm the developer, do I know it's there? If so, it would offend my delicate sensibilities, and thus yes, it's broken... unless, of course, I *intentionally* put it there to be the one-flaw-in-the-otherwise-perfect-code, in which case no... it's a feature, not a bug, so it isn't broken. :) --Craig On Fri, 2003-06-06 at 11:06, robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > > > Well, being a Super Genius I should be able to use some of the Acme modules to > take care of it... > > Robert "Wile E. Coyote" Kuropkat > > P.S. This does sort of bring up the philisophical question: If there's a bug > in the program but there's no one on-call, is the program really broken? > > > > > > > robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > > > That was darned amusing! I'm going to have to look at the > > > Quantum::Superpositions module sometime later. Maybe it can somehow be used > > in > > > automatic bug fixing ... :) > > > > > > Robert Kuropkat > > > > > > > Automatic bug fixing? Have fun with the halting problem :) > > > > Belden > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Oakland mailing list > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 6 20:10:34 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-06-06 Message-ID: <200306061810.34116.george@metaart.org> The O'Reilly UG newsletter of 2003-06-06 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030606.txt should you wish to read it. From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 9 12:14:24 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Tue. June 10 Meeting Message-ID: <200306091014.24989.george@metaart.org> See some of you tomorrow evening. cut and paste of Meeting Announcement from http://oakland.pm.org/ ...................................... Come to our next meeting: when: Tue. June 10, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) where: Arden Schaeffer's place 413 61st Street, Oakland CA directions: original, Arden's what: introductions lightning talk(s) talk: "Using User Agents to defend a Domain Name" ... main speaker: Dan Meriwether who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. From cpm at bitbucket.com Mon Jun 9 18:41:44 2003 From: cpm at bitbucket.com (Craig McLaughlin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Possible heresy, but... Message-ID: <1055202105.29538.87.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> ... anyone going to the JavaOne conference this week? I've just (talk about last minute!) landed an arrangement to "provide feedback" to Sun on the conference, developer attitudes, wishes, etc. It would be neat to meet any of you who will be attending. I promise to be fairly reasonable as regards asking questions! :) Cheers, --Craig From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 9 19:39:14 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Possible heresy, but... In-Reply-To: <1055202105.29538.87.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> References: <1055202105.29538.87.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> Message-ID: <200306091739.14873.george@metaart.org> Craig, Lucky you. I'm not going, but would be very interested to hear how it goes, if you feel like telling. George On Monday 09 June 2003 4:41 pm, Craig McLaughlin wrote: > ... anyone going to the JavaOne conference this week? I've just (talk > about last minute!) landed an arrangement to "provide feedback" to Sun > on the conference, developer attitudes, wishes, etc. > > It would be neat to meet any of you who will be attending. I promise to > be fairly reasonable as regards asking questions! :) > > Cheers, > --Craig From david at fetter.org Mon Jun 9 21:53:29 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Possible heresy, but... In-Reply-To: <1055202105.29538.87.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> References: <1055202105.29538.87.camel@sith.bitbucket.com> Message-ID: <20030610025329.GA23692@fetter.org> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 04:41:44PM -0700, Craig McLaughlin wrote: > ... anyone going to the JavaOne conference this week? I've just > (talk about last minute!) landed an arrangement to "provide > feedback" to Sun on the conference, developer attitudes, wishes, > etc. > It would be neat to meet any of you who will be attending. I > promise to be fairly reasonable as regards asking questions! :) Grewvy! On a somewhat related subject, does anybody know of a perl struts-like thing? More info on that at Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From mtheo at amural.com Tue Jun 10 19:44:43 2003 From: mtheo at amural.com (Mark Theodoropoulos) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Tue. June 10 Meeting In-Reply-To: <200306091014.24989.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <3EE6190B.8418.1B2F5C0E@localhost> Dang. Looks like I won't make it after all. If it hadn't been for that 23-hour runup to Sunday's presentation on top of usual radio last night, I might have the energy to drag my carcass out of here. See youse next time. -- producer / classics without walls the anti-warhorse zone / www.amural.com kusf 90.3fm / san francisco the gurre-lieder project, 6/8: http://www.amural.com/gl.html From george at metaart.org Wed Jun 11 07:57:58 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Tue. June 10 Meeting In-Reply-To: <3EE6190B.8418.1B2F5C0E@localhost> References: <3EE6190B.8418.1B2F5C0E@localhost> Message-ID: <200306110557.58906.george@metaart.org> Mark, 'Tsall good. See you next time. George On Tuesday 10 June 2003 5:44 pm, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > Dang. Looks like I won't make it after all. If it hadn't been for that > 23-hour runup to Sunday's presentation on top of usual radio last > night, I might have the energy to drag my carcass out of here. See > youse next time. From george at metaart.org Wed Jun 11 19:46:36 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] June Meeting Message-ID: <200306111746.36139.george@metaart.org> Well, the June meeting involved several improvisations. 11 people showed up , which is both more than we normally have and a lot more than we expected. So there was some moving of chairs around and such. We had a lottery for an O'Reilly T-shirt and an O'Reilly calendar. Plan a was to use a toy lottery CGI Edwin Sakumoto had written at my request for the lottery. Plan b was to use a simple script I had written. Circumstances conspired against both of those options and what we -- I'll leave it to your imagination. ---------------------------------------------------------- We'll be having a modest lottery next month too. Perhaps we can use Edwin's CGI then. It seems to do exactly the simple thing we need. --------------------------------------------------------- We thought we were going to have a main speaker. However, the speaker didn't come. (I'm trying to find out what happened. Hope he's OK.) So I lengthened my planned lightning talk into a mini talk. Robert Kuropkat and Michael McMillan gave unplanned minitalks. Also, Adrien LaMothe gave an unscheduled lightning talk. Personally, I found the talks quite interesting. --------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Robert, Michael and Adrien. --------------------------------------------------------- 7 of us ended up staying until around 11:30pm talking and eating the goodies provided by our hosts. Arden says staying so late was OK, but I'm wondering if there's something we can do for our hosts. --------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, thank you Arden. --------------------------------------------------------- George From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 13 01:11:58 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back Message-ID: <200306122311.58627.george@metaart.org> There were just three people at our first meeting: Belden, myself and Ken Chow. Ken was at our first two meetings, and then had a conflict that kept him away. The conflict is gone, and Ken was at our June meeting. Welcome back Ken! From perlpipe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 06:41:12 2003 From: perlpipe at yahoo.com (Ken Chow) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back In-Reply-To: <200306122311.58627.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Now if I can only remember any perl. Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble today looking for a book about a Canadian outlaw motorcycle club when I happened upon a discounted copy of "Advanced Perl Programming" (O'Reilly) selling for $10.00 (American not Canadian). I'm not sure if that means an updated Edition is soon to appear or what (and if "what", just what is what?). Anyway, I thought I'd pass that along since I think it is a decent discount from the original price. Several copies were seen at the Walnut Creek Barnes and Noble although I think that the discounts are the same throughout the bay area. Ken Father, forgive me for I have become a newsgroup advertisement for Barnes and Noble --- George Woolley wrote: > There were just three people at our first meeting: > Belden, myself and Ken Chow. > Ken was at our first two meetings, > and then had a conflict that kept him away. > The conflict is gone, > and Ken was at our June meeting. > Welcome back Ken! > > > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From david at wheeler.net Fri Jun 13 10:26:45 2003 From: david at wheeler.net (David Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back In-Reply-To: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710B7788-9DB3-11D7-83D4-0003931A964A@wheeler.net> On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 04:41 AM, Ken Chow wrote: > Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble today looking for a > book about a Canadian outlaw motorcycle club when I > happened upon a discounted copy of "Advanced Perl > Programming" (O'Reilly) selling for $10.00 (American > not Canadian). I'm not sure if that means an updated > Edition is soon to appear or what (and if "what", just > what is what?). Anyway, I thought I'd pass that along > since I think it is a decent discount from the > original price. Several copies were seen at the > Walnut Creek Barnes and Noble although I think that > the discounts are the same throughout the bay area. I recall finding that book pretty mediocre. And yes, I do believe that a new edition (read: total rewrite by a different author) is due for release sometime this year. But I may be misremembering a rumor. David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory david@kineticode.com ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: Theory@jabber.org Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm] From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 13 10:40:48 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back In-Reply-To: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200306130840.49158.george@metaart.org> On Friday 13 June 2003 4:41 am, Ken Chow wrote: > ... > Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble today looking for a > book about a Canadian outlaw motorcycle club when I > happened upon a discounted copy of "Advanced Perl > Programming" (O'Reilly) selling for $10.00 (American > not Canadian). I'm not sure if that means an updated > Edition is soon to appear or what (and if "what", just > what is what?). That does seem like an awfully good price. I see $24.47 on Amazon (with a low of $6.48 for used). $10 for a book on the shelf. That's cheap. I see prices more than double or even triple the Barnes & Noble on the shelf price that you saw. So that's big savings too. But consider this: in the O'Reilly catalog entry, the publication date is listed as August 1997. That's old. So, does anyone who has the book think it would be worth buying now? And does anyone know the answer to Ken's questions? From david at fetter.org Fri Jun 13 10:43:09 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back In-Reply-To: <710B7788-9DB3-11D7-83D4-0003931A964A@wheeler.net> References: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> <710B7788-9DB3-11D7-83D4-0003931A964A@wheeler.net> Message-ID: <20030613154309.GA12103@fetter.org> On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 08:26:45AM -0700, David Wheeler wrote: > On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 04:41 AM, Ken Chow wrote: > >Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble today looking for a book about a > >Canadian outlaw motorcycle club when I happened upon a discounted > >copy of "Advanced Perl Programming" (O'Reilly) selling for $10.00 > >(American not Canadian). I'm not sure if that means an updated > >Edition is soon to appear or what (and if "what", just what is > >what?). Anyway, I thought I'd pass that along since I think it is > >a decent discount from the original price. Several copies were > >seen at the Walnut Creek Barnes and Noble although I think that the > >discounts are the same throughout the bay area. > I recall finding that book pretty mediocre. I don't think mediocre--"average"--quite covers it. It sucks. > And yes, I do believe that a new edition (read: total rewrite by a > different author) is due for release sometime this year. O'Reilly's site doesn't make any mention of it, but for groovy references, check out the Perl Cookbook and Randal Schwart & Tom Phoenix's new "Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules." As I understand it, Randal was slated to write Advanced Perl Programming, but his legal troubles took too much of his time. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 13 11:49:49 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Ken is Back In-Reply-To: <20030613154309.GA12103@fetter.org> References: <20030613114112.57802.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> <710B7788-9DB3-11D7-83D4-0003931A964A@wheeler.net> <20030613154309.GA12103@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200306130949.49142.george@metaart.org> On Friday 13 June 2003 8:43 am, David Fetter wrote: > ... O'Reilly's site doesn't make any mention of it, but for groovy > references, check out the Perl Cookbook and Randal Schwart & Tom > Phoenix's new "Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules." ... I noticed the O'Reilly catalog entry http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ a few days ago. The book looks like a winner. I've been watching for it on Safari, but hadn't seen it. But I just checked again because of your suggestion. And it was added today! Thanks. From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 13 23:47:20 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Fwd: Newsletter of 2003-06-13 Message-ID: <200306132147.20160.george@metaart.org> The O'Reilly UG newsletter of 2003-06-13 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030613.txt should you wish to read it. George .............................................................................. extracted from the newsletter: .............................................................................. ... ***Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules Order Number: 4788 "Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules" picks up where "Learning Perl" leaves off. The book offers a gentle introduction to the world of references, object-oriented programming, and the use of Perl modules. Like "Learning Perl," each chapter in "Learning Perl Objects" is designed to be small enough to be read in an hour or two, and each ends with exercises to practice what you've learned. This book covers everything that separates the Perl dabbler from the Perl programmer. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ Chapter 3, "Introduction to References," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/chapter/index.html ... From george at metaart.org Sat Jun 14 00:07:41 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? Message-ID: <200306132207.41828.george@metaart.org> It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? From david at fetter.org Sat Jun 14 00:44:17 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? In-Reply-To: <200306132207.41828.george@metaart.org> References: <200306132207.41828.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030614054417.GA12981@fetter.org> On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:07:41PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? That new Apache one would be good, as would Randal's latest hit. Just my $.02. Hmm...come to think of it, it's also O'Reilly's $20 ;) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From david at wheeler.net Sat Jun 14 09:23:41 2003 From: david at wheeler.net (David Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? In-Reply-To: <200306132207.41828.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 10:07 PM, George Woolley wrote: > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? Practical mod_perl David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory david@kineticode.com ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: Theory@jabber.org Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm] From edwincime at yahoo.com Sat Jun 14 12:21:57 2003 From: edwincime at yahoo.com (Edwin s) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Introduction Message-ID: <20030614172157.35626.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Everyone, I have been involved in the IT field since 1981. I have seen many changes in the field as I am sure many of you have. My interests are in learning perl and about the environment in which it works the best, unix or linux. I've heard it said you use perl to get things done. I have a site, if you can take a look and comment, I'd appreciate it. login:webuser, no password http://69.3.90.141/cgi-bin/lottery.cgi Regards, Edwin --------------- Ignore the rest, I'm just venting --------------- I have been involved in the IT field since 1981. I have seen many changes in the field as I am sure many of you have. What are these cycles? What are the constants? Seems like Knuth's or someone like him, Niklaus Wirth, data structures will always be. Unix? Linux? Shell command, regular expressions.. I remember c shell and vi were used in universites in the 1980's. It's still around Object Oriented Languages? Design patterns by the GOF came out in 1994 and it's still relevant today. Management has no brains, (this will always be true, 5000BC or 5000AD) This is cyclical. What am I leading to? Good question, no one knows the future, but before I move to India or China (or at least alot of IT jobs go there) what will remain? What will keep me employed in the next 20 years without being caught up in the latest fad everytime. Next fad, let's outsource executive jobs overseas. If programming jobs go overseas, why not management too, I think you need local people to watch over those programmers!!! (Executives ---- Do they not think??? ) Which leads me back to perl (regular expressions) and linux (unix has withstood the test of time!). So my interests are: object oriented perl using design patterns and data structures. Let's take one example. MVC (Model View Controller), separate the model from the view and the controller. So you have java servlets (mixes view(html) and business logic) which led to java server pages (does a better job of separating view from logic (but still not good enough) which led to JSP struts (a wonderfully complex architectural piece of work) So now you have php (mixes html with scripts), view and logic all in the same page? Let's create templates to separate out the html from the php. I'm still new to php but I think the next evolution is php struts ( just to over architect php like they did with jsp ). "Seems like deja vu all over again" Which leads me back to perl and something interesting Larry Wall said in discussing object oriented perl, paraphrasing, "we're not going to create rules (like other languages) to keep people from looking at, modifying object instance variables, common sense should keep you out. If you don't belong there, just stay out of there". "What we don't trust one another?" Which leads me back to perl and one of the things that drive people mad (including me), there is often not a single way to do things. That's fine with me, I can accept that because the contrary thought ultimately leads to a worse evil like JSP struts which forces people into MVC when using java servlets correctly you can do MVC quite nicely. which leads me back to perl, I believe perl trusts people to fuck up or not fuck up, it's entirely up to them. That's why I can accept the perl culture. Regards, Edwin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030614/65b15353/attachment.htm From george at metaart.org Sat Jun 14 17:34:40 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Introduction + Toy Lottery In-Reply-To: <20030614172157.35626.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030614172157.35626.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200306141534.40478.george@metaart.org> Edwin, Thanks for introducing yourself on this list. George All, Note that Edwin has * included the URL for a Toy Lottery CGI which I think would be sufficient for a lottery such as the one we had in June. (You can see the code too.) * requested comments. So, are there comments? George On Saturday 14 June 2003 10:21 am, Edwin s wrote: > Hello Everyone, > I have been involved in the IT field since 1981. I have seen many > changes in the field as I am sure many of you have. > ... > I have a site, if you can take a look and comment, I'd appreciate it. > > login:webuser, no password > http://69.3.90.141/cgi-bin/lottery.cgi > ... From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 16 00:12:16 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? In-Reply-To: <20030614054417.GA12981@fetter.org> References: <200306132207.41828.george@metaart.org> <20030614054417.GA12981@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200306152212.16834.george@metaart.org> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:07:41PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? On Friday 13 June 2003 10:44 pm, David Fetter wrote: > That new Apache one would be good, as would Randal's latest hit. On Saturday 14 June 2003 7:23 am, David Wheeler wrote: > Practical mod_perl Thanks David and David for responding to my request for suggestions. If I understand correctly, the following 3 books have been suggested: Apache: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Edition. By Ben Laurie, Peter Laurie December 2002 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/apache3/ Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules By Randal L. Schwartz, With Tom Phoenix June 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ Practical mod_perl By Stas Bekman, Eric Cholet May 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pmodperl/ So, does anyone have preferences among these three? From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 16 14:07:55 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Mike moving to Las Vegas Message-ID: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> Some of you may not be aware that Mike Lewis is moving to Las Vegas. Some of us knew that was coming, but now Mike has announced that on PBML. If you want more detail, see the PBML archives http://rattler.cajuninc.com/pipermail/pbml/ The email is dated June 16. Darn! I'll miss Mike. But I plan to stay in touch by personal email, his PBML mailing list, and, who knows, maybe he'll come back this way occasionally for a visit. Anyway, best wishes to Mike. George From david at fetter.org Mon Jun 16 14:39:20 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Mike moving to Las Vegas In-Reply-To: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> References: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030616193920.GD9550@fetter.org> On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 12:07:55PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > Some of you may not be aware that Mike Lewis is moving to Las Vegas. > Some of us knew that was coming, > but now Mike has announced that on PBML. > If you want more detail, > see the PBML archives http://rattler.cajuninc.com/pipermail/pbml/ > The email is dated June 16. Best wishes on your move, Mike! It won't be anything like leaving Las Vegas ;) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From cajun at cajuninc.com Mon Jun 16 16:06:58 2003 From: cajun at cajuninc.com (M.Lewis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Mike moving to Las Vegas In-Reply-To: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> References: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306161406.58251.cajun@cajuninc.com> Thanks George! On Monday 16 June 2003 12:07, George Woolley wrote: > Some of you may not be aware that Mike Lewis is moving to Las Vegas. > Some of us knew that was coming, > but now Mike has announced that on PBML. > If you want more detail, > see the PBML archives http://rattler.cajuninc.com/pipermail/pbml/ > The email is dated June 16. > > Darn! I'll miss Mike. > But I plan to stay in touch by personal email, > his PBML mailing list, > and, who knows, maybe he'll come back this way > occasionally for a visit. > > Anyway, best wishes to Mike. > > George > > > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -- Backup not found! A)bort, R)etry or P)anic? 14:05:00 up 11 days, 1:22, 4 users, load average: 1.10, 1.33, 1.40 Linux Registered User #241685 http://counter.li.org From cajun at cajuninc.com Mon Jun 16 16:11:25 2003 From: cajun at cajuninc.com (M.Lewis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Mike moving to Las Vegas In-Reply-To: <20030616193920.GD9550@fetter.org> References: <200306161207.55054.george@metaart.org> <20030616193920.GD9550@fetter.org> Message-ID: <200306161411.25647.cajun@cajuninc.com> Thanks David ! Well, part of that might be nice.... kidding. On Monday 16 June 2003 12:39, David Fetter wrote: > On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 12:07:55PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > Some of you may not be aware that Mike Lewis is moving to Las Vegas. > > Some of us knew that was coming, > > but now Mike has announced that on PBML. > > If you want more detail, > > see the PBML archives http://rattler.cajuninc.com/pipermail/pbml/ > > The email is dated June 16. > > Best wishes on your move, Mike! > > It won't be anything like href="http://us.imdb.com/Title?0113627">leaving Las Vegas ;) > > Cheers, > D -- This system will self-destruct in five minutes. 14:10:00 up 11 days, 1:27, 4 users, load average: 0.09, 0.54, 1.03 Linux Registered User #241685 http://counter.li.org From george at metaart.org Tue Jun 17 00:29:05 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? Message-ID: <200306162229.05438.george@metaart.org> OK, noone responded to my request for preferences among the three books. In the interest of moving forward, I've requested: Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules George ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: [oak perl] Group Book? Date: Sunday 15 June 2003 10:12 pm From: George Woolley To: oakland@mail.pm.org > On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:07:41PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? On Friday 13 June 2003 10:44 pm, David Fetter wrote: > That new Apache one would be good, as would Randal's latest hit. On Saturday 14 June 2003 7:23 am, David Wheeler wrote: > Practical mod_perl Thanks David and David for responding to my request for suggestions. If I understand correctly, the following 3 books have been suggested: Apache: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Edition. By Ben Laurie, Peter Laurie December 2002 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/apache3/ Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules By Randal L. Schwartz, With Tom Phoenix June 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ Practical mod_perl By Stas Bekman, Eric Cholet May 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pmodperl/ So, does anyone have preferences among these three? ------------------------------------------------------- From edwincime at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 00:31:29 2003 From: edwincime at yahoo.com (Edwin s) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? In-Reply-To: <200306162229.05438.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030617053129.80857.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Good choice George, I've heard that mentioned in perl chat rooms George Woolley wrote:OK, noone responded to my request for preferences among the three books. In the interest of moving forward, I've requested: Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules George ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: [oak perl] Group Book? Date: Sunday 15 June 2003 10:12 pm From: George Woolley To: oakland@mail.pm.org > On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:07:41PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? On Friday 13 June 2003 10:44 pm, David Fetter wrote: > That new Apache one would be good, as would Randal's latest hit. On Saturday 14 June 2003 7:23 am, David Wheeler wrote: > Practical mod_perl Thanks David and David for responding to my request for suggestions. If I understand correctly, the following 3 books have been suggested: Apache: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Edition. By Ben Laurie, Peter Laurie December 2002 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/apache3/ Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules By Randal L. Schwartz, With Tom Phoenix June 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ Practical mod_perl By Stas Bekman, Eric Cholet May 2003 url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pmodperl/ So, does anyone have preferences among these three? ------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Oakland mailing list Oakland@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030616/1ebb1834/attachment.htm From george at metaart.org Tue Jun 17 01:14:23 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting + Lightning Talks? Message-ID: <200306162314.23681.george@metaart.org> Anyone wish to do a lightning talk or short talk related to Readable Code at the July meeting? Or perhaps a lightning talk not on that theme? July Meeting Announcement from http://oakland.pm.org/ .......................................... Come to our next meeting: * when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) * where: Arden Schaeffer's place 413 61st Street, Oakland CA * directions: original, Arden's * theme: Readable Code * what: o introductions o a lottery o short talks & lightning talks o ... * who: open to anyone interested. * how much: no fee for our meetings. From george at metaart.org Tue Jun 17 01:51:39 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Group Book? In-Reply-To: <20030617053129.80857.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030617053129.80857.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200306162351.39336.george@metaart.org> Edwin, Thanks for the feedback. I'm hopeful that most of the group will be interested in it. I'm glad David Fetter suggested it. George On Monday 16 June 2003 10:31 pm, Edwin s wrote: > Good choice George, I've heard that mentioned in perl chat rooms > > George Woolley wrote:OK, noone responded to my request > for preferences among the three books. > > In the interest of moving forward, > I've requested: > Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules > > George > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Subject: Re: [oak perl] Group Book? > Date: Sunday 15 June 2003 10:12 pm > From: George Woolley > To: oakland@mail.pm.org > > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:07:41PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? > > On Friday 13 June 2003 10:44 pm, David Fetter wrote: > > That new Apache one would be good, as would Randal's latest hit. > > On Saturday 14 June 2003 7:23 am, David Wheeler wrote: > > Practical mod_perl > > Thanks David and David for responding to my request for suggestions. > If I understand correctly, the following 3 books have been suggested: > > Apache: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Edition. > By Ben Laurie, Peter Laurie > December 2002 > url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/apache3/ > > Learning Perl Objects, References & Modules > By Randal L. Schwartz, With Tom Phoenix > June 2003 > url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lrnperlorm/ > > Practical mod_perl > By Stas Bekman, Eric Cholet > May 2003 > url of catlog entry: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pmodperl/ > > So, does anyone have preferences among these three? > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From arden at lmi.net Tue Jun 17 14:34:52 2003 From: arden at lmi.net (Arden Schaeffer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Mike moving to Las Vegas Message-ID: Best wishes on your move, Mike! ~Arden (I'm the guy with "that damned Mac" as you so succinctly put it) arden@lmi.net From blyman at iii.com Tue Jun 17 16:24:44 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Emergency s-b-e-b meet Message-ID: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> Mike's leaving Oakland for Las Vegas! Is it in pursuit of his dream of appearing on national TV as a guest corpse on "Law & Order: SUV"? Is it because he prefers a dry heat? It certainly can't be for the guacamole! Regardless of the cause for his leaving, we need to send him off in style! Come bid your favorite Cajun adieu next Monday at 7:30pm at Chevy's in Emeryville[0]! Please RSVP to me so I know how many to make reservations for. Belden -- [0] - Chevy's in Emeryville is located at 1890 Powell Street Emeryville, CA 94608 (510) 653-8210 From BART, take the MacArthur exit. Hop on the Powell/Shellmound route of the EmeryGoRound (http://www.emerygoround.com). The shuttle picks up straight across the courtyard from the turnstiles. Get off the shuttle around the Watergate Office Towers: Chevy's is a quick walk around the corner. If you're coming by car, use your favorite mapping website to get driving directions to Chevy's. From george at metaart.org Tue Jun 17 21:24:16 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Emergency s-b-e-b meet In-Reply-To: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> Message-ID: <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> Belden, Great idea! I'll be there. Adrien, says he'll be there too. George On Tuesday 17 June 2003 2:24 pm, Belden Lyman wrote: > Mike's leaving Oakland for Las Vegas! > > Is it in pursuit of his dream of appearing on national TV as > a guest corpse on "Law & Order: SUV"? Is it because he prefers > a dry heat? It certainly can't be for the guacamole! > > Regardless of the cause for his leaving, we need to send him > off in style! Come bid your favorite Cajun adieu next Monday > at 7:30pm at Chevy's in Emeryville[0]! > > Please RSVP to me so I know how many to make reservations for. > > Belden From extasia at extasia.org Tue Jun 17 22:28:41 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] SIG-BEER-WEST this Saturday 6/21 in San Francisco Message-ID: <20030617202841.A25604@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SIG-beer-west Saturday, June 21, 2003 at 6:00pm San Francisco, CA Beer. Mental stimulation. This event: * Saturday, 06/21/2003, 6:00pm, at the Toronado, San Francisco Coming events (third Saturdays): * Saturday, 07/19/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 08/16/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 09/20/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 10/18/2003, 6:00pm San Francisco's next social event for computer sysadmins and their friends, sig-beer-west, will take place on Saturday, June 21, 2003 at the [1]Toronado in San Francisco, CA. The Toronado has an impressive selection of [2]draught and [3]bottled beer. Festivities will start at 6:00pm and continue until we've all left. The Toronado has an excellent selection of beer, but no food. It is perfectly okay to score food from neighboring establishments and bring it back to the Toronado to eat. Also, after we are all full with beer we may roam off to a nearby restaurant. [1] http://www.toronado.com/ [2] http://www.toronado.com/draft.htm [3] http://www.toronado.com/bottles.htm Everyone is welcome at this event. We mean it! Please feel free to forward this information and to invite friends, co-workers, and others who might enjoy lifting a glass with interesting folks from all over the place. (O.K., you do have to be of legal drinking age to attend.) For directions to the Toronado, please use the [4]excellent directions at their website. When you show up at the Toronado, you should look for some kind of botched sig-beer-west sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are. :-) [4] http://www.toronado.com/map.htm Note: Check the tables in the back room for us if you don't see us at the tables by the bar. The back room is back and to the left. Can't come this month? Mark your calendar for next month. sig-beer-west is always on the third Saturday of the month. Any Comments, Questions, or Suggestions of Things to Do Later on That Evening ... email [5]Fiid or [6]David. [5] fiid A T fiid D O T net [6] extasia A T extasia D O T org There is a sig-beer-west mailing list. To subscribe, send an email with "subscribe" in the body to . sig-beer-west FAQ 1. Q: Your announcement says "computer sysadmins and their friends". How do I know if I'm a friend of a computer sysadmin? I don't even know what one is. A: You're a friend of a computer sysadmin if you can find the sig-beer-west sign at this month's sig-beer-west event. 2. Q: I'm not really a beer person. In fact I'm interested in hanging out, but not in drinking. Would I be welcome? A: Absolutely! The point is to hang out with fun, interesting folks. Please do join us. 3. Q: Is parking difficult around the Toronado, like maybe I should factor this into my travel time? A: Yes. ______________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west was started in February 2002 when a couple Washington, D.C. based systems administrators who moved to the San Francisco Bay area wanted to continue a [7]dc-sage tradition, sig-beer, which is described in dc-sage web space as: SIG-beer, as in "Special Interest Group - Beer" ala ACM, or as in "send the BEER signal to that process". The original SIG-beer gathering takes place in Washington DC, usually on the first Saturday night of the month. [7] http://www.dc-sage.org/ ______________________________________________________________________ - -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Cave fruticem. http://www.extasia.org/cave-fruticem/ Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+79G2Ph0M9c/OpdARAiuUAKCnzOwgEgfJGAidpIlK1v0JLZBfvACgvWCh GIY3Xxv3fFxt2NNKpi1AJlE= =MwTE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From arden at lmi.net Wed Jun 18 11:32:46 2003 From: arden at lmi.net (Arden Schaeffer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Emergency s-b-e-b meet In-Reply-To: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> Message-ID: <7E647F8E-A1AA-11D7-9A32-0003934696D8@lmi.net> i'll be there. arden at lmi.net On Tuesday, Jun 17, 2003, at 14:24 US/Pacific, Belden Lyman wrote: > > Mike's leaving Oakland for Las Vegas! > > Is it in pursuit of his dream of appearing on national TV as > a guest corpse on "Law & Order: SUV"? Is it because he prefers > a dry heat? It certainly can't be for the guacamole! > > Regardless of the cause for his leaving, we need to send him > off in style! Come bid your favorite Cajun adieu next Monday > at 7:30pm at Chevy's in Emeryville[0]! > > Please RSVP to me so I know how many to make reservations for. > > Belden > > -- > > [0] - Chevy's in Emeryville is located at > > 1890 Powell Street > Emeryville, CA 94608 > (510) 653-8210 > > From BART, take the MacArthur exit. Hop on the Powell/Shellmound > route of the EmeryGoRound (http://www.emerygoround.com). The > shuttle picks up straight across the courtyard from the turnstiles. > Get off the shuttle around the Watergate Office Towers: Chevy's is > a quick walk around the corner. > > If you're coming by car, use your favorite mapping website to get > driving directions to Chevy's. > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > From blyman at iii.com Mon Jun 23 19:07:13 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Chevy's at 7:30 Message-ID: <3EF79631.1080505@iii.com> Ok - to those who RSVP'd and whose plans have not changed - I'll see you at Chevy's in Emeryville at 7:30. Belden From george at metaart.org Mon Jun 23 19:20:31 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Chevy's at 7:30 In-Reply-To: <3EF79631.1080505@iii.com> References: <3EF79631.1080505@iii.com> Message-ID: <200306231720.31706.george@metaart.org> Belden, Thanks for organizing this and thanks for the followup. See you and Mike, and whoever comes soon. George On Monday 23 June 2003 5:07 pm, Belden Lyman wrote: > Ok - to those who RSVP'd and whose plans have not changed - > I'll see you at Chevy's in Emeryville at 7:30. > > Belden From cajun at cajuninc.com Mon Jun 23 20:00:38 2003 From: cajun at cajuninc.com (M.Lewis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Chevy's at 7:30 In-Reply-To: <200306231720.31706.george@metaart.org> References: <3EF79631.1080505@iii.com> <200306231720.31706.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306231800.38368.cajun@cajuninc.com> I may be a few minutes late waiting on Tia to get off work. M On Monday 23 June 2003 17:20, George Woolley wrote: > Belden, > Thanks for organizing this > and thanks for the followup. > > See you and Mike, and whoever comes soon. > George > > On Monday 23 June 2003 5:07 pm, Belden Lyman wrote: > > Ok - to those who RSVP'd and whose plans have not changed - > > I'll see you at Chevy's in Emeryville at 7:30. > > > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -- Volume in Drive C: TOO_LOUD! 18:00:00 up 18 days, 5:17, 5 users, load average: 0.41, 0.98, 1.07 Linux Registered User #241685 http://counter.li.org From george at metaart.org Tue Jun 24 15:50:51 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] So Long To Mike In-Reply-To: <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> sig-beer-east-bay lives! 10 people got together at Chevy's in Emeryville last night. We eat, drank, talked and said goodbye to Mike Lewis, who is moving to Las Vegas. From cajun at cajuninc.com Tue Jun 24 16:48:45 2003 From: cajun at cajuninc.com (M.Lewis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] So Long To Mike In-Reply-To: <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200306241448.45227.cajun@cajuninc.com> Thanks to all. We had a good time. Good food. Good drink. It was good to see everyone again. A special thanks to Belden for calling the emergency Sig Beer East Bay event. M On Tuesday 24 June 2003 13:50, George Woolley wrote: > sig-beer-east-bay lives! > 10 people got together at Chevy's in Emeryville last night. > We eat, drank, talked and said goodbye to Mike Lewis, > who is moving to Las Vegas. > > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound? 14:45:01 up 19 days, 2:02, 7 users, load average: 0.12, 0.25, 0.72 Linux Registered User #241685 http://counter.li.org From david at fetter.org Tue Jun 24 19:07:53 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] In-Reply-To: <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030625000753.GD18160@fetter.org> On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:50:51PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > sig-beer-east-bay lives! > 10 people got together at Chevy's in Emeryville last night. We eat, > drank, talked and said goodbye to Mike Lewis, who is moving to Las > Vegas. Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. Yes, I'm aware that each time somebody "will get less than they paid for," and somebody more, but in truth, what you're paying for at a restaurant is only about 5% food, the rest going to facilities, staff, the fact that you can send your food back if you don't like it, etc., etc. If somebody eats grossly more than everybody else in a situation like that, peer pressure works just great. Anonymous bundles of cash going around the table encourages people to...how do I put this gently...underestimate their contribution. What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next one? Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From blyman at iii.com Wed Jun 25 10:29:15 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> <20030625000753.GD18160@fetter.org> Message-ID: <3EF9BFCB.607@iii.com> David Fetter wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:50:51PM -0700, George Woolley wrote: > >>sig-beer-east-bay lives! >>10 people got together at Chevy's in Emeryville last night. We eat, >>drank, talked and said goodbye to Mike Lewis, who is moving to Las >>Vegas. > > > Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have a > modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. > [...] > What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next one? > > Cheers, > D I think this is a good idea. In the future we could avoid the whole mess by choosing a different venue- one which will provide seperate checks. I imagine that the "even Dutch split" will need to be gently re-iterated when organizing our next few social events. Belden From david at fetter.org Wed Jun 25 10:35:12 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] In-Reply-To: <3EF9BFCB.607@iii.com> References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> <20030625000753.GD18160@fetter.org> <3EF9BFCB.607@iii.com> Message-ID: <20030625153512.GA5763@fetter.org> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 08:29:15AM -0700, Belden Lyman wrote: > David Fetter wrote: > >Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have > >a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. > >[...] What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next > >one? > >Cheers, > >D > I think this is a good idea. In the future we could avoid the whole > mess by choosing a different venue- one which will provide seperate > checks. I don't know of any such venues. Anybody? > I imagine that the "even Dutch split" will need to be gently > re-iterated when organizing our next few social events. Any Dutch people on the list? ;) Cheers, D (proud to be [kinda] Belgian) -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From blyman at iii.com Wed Jun 25 11:29:34 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] References: <3EEF871C.1040703@iii.com> <200306171924.16590.george@metaart.org> <200306241350.51223.george@metaart.org> <20030625000753.GD18160@fetter.org> <3EF9BFCB.607@iii.com> <20030625153512.GA5763@fetter.org> Message-ID: <3EF9CDEE.80406@iii.com> David Fetter wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 08:29:15AM -0700, Belden Lyman wrote: > > >>David Fetter wrote: > > >>>Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have >>>a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. >>>[...] What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next >>>one? >> > >>>Cheers, >>>D >> > >>I think this is a good idea. In the future we could avoid the whole >>mess by choosing a different venue- one which will provide seperate >>checks. > > > I don't know of any such venues. Anybody? > > Some bars; Brennan's in *cough* Berkeley has cafeteria-style service (complete with trays!). Isobune along College in Oakland is a sushi- boat restaurant, I think they'll split checks. Cato's along Piedmont has the booth in the back where one pays when ordering one's food. Rolling Dunes is a fried hamburger sandwiches, crepes, and sliced- cake type of restaurant; there's one on Piedmont, and another around the corner from the Grand. Order and pay at the counter, take a number, food arrives shortly. The Crepevine is another such restaurant, absent the fried hamburger sandwiches. Brennan's is very large - always seating available (save St. Patrick's Day, perhaps). Rolling Dunes doesn't seem to ever seem to get full up. Belden From george at metaart.org Thu Jun 26 13:02:10 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks Message-ID: <200306261102.10799.george@metaart.org> The theme of the July meeting is Readable Code. So far three people have volunteered to give short talks: Robert Kuropkat, Edwin Sakumoto and myself. Anyone else? <<<<<< (i.e. volunteer to give a short talk or lightning talk, related to the theme Readable Code?) Also, if things go as expected for the July meeting, Mark Theodoropoulos will be giving his long awaited lightning talk that involves both Arnold Schoenberg and Perl. Anyone else? <<<<<< (i.e. volunteer to give a lightning talk? ) George ............................. Cut & Paste of Meeting Announcement from http://oakland.pm.org ............................ Come to our next meeting: when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) where: Arden Schaeffer's place 413 61st Street, Oakland CA directions: original, Arden's theme: Readable Code what: introductions a lottery short talks & lightning talks ... who: open to anyone interested. how much: no fee for our meetings. From robert-kuropkat at attbi.com Thu Jun 26 13:04:50 2003 From: robert-kuropkat at attbi.com (robert-kuropkat@attbi.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks Message-ID: <200306261805.h5QI54j12849@mail.pm.org> BTW, if a lightening talk is 5 min's or less, how long should a "short talk" be? Robert Kuropkat > The theme of the July meeting is Readable Code. > So far three people have volunteered to give short talks: > Robert Kuropkat, Edwin Sakumoto and myself. > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > (i.e. volunteer to give a short talk or lightning talk, > related to the theme Readable Code?) > > Also, if things go as expected for the July meeting, > Mark Theodoropoulos > will be giving his long awaited lightning talk > that involves both Arnold Schoenberg and Perl. > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > (i.e. volunteer to give a lightning talk? ) > > George > > ............................. > Cut & Paste of Meeting Announcement > from http://oakland.pm.org > ............................ > Come to our next meeting: > > when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. > (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) > where: Arden Schaeffer's place > 413 61st Street, Oakland CA > directions: original, Arden's > theme: Readable Code > what: > > introductions > a lottery > short talks & lightning talks > ... > > who: open to anyone interested. > how much: no fee for our meetings. > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From george at metaart.org Thu Jun 26 14:14:22 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks In-Reply-To: <200306261805.h5QI54j12849@mail.pm.org> References: <200306261805.h5QI54j12849@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <200306261214.22516.george@metaart.org> Robert, Good question. How about roughly 5 to 15 minutes. If you want more time than that, how about letting me know what you need. George On Thursday 26 June 2003 11:04 am, robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > BTW, if a lightening talk is 5 min's or less, how long should a "short > talk" be? > > Robert Kuropkat > > > The theme of the July meeting is Readable Code. > > So far three people have volunteered to give short talks: > > Robert Kuropkat, Edwin Sakumoto and myself. > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > (i.e. volunteer to give a short talk or lightning talk, > > related to the theme Readable Code?) > > > > Also, if things go as expected for the July meeting, > > Mark Theodoropoulos > > will be giving his long awaited lightning talk > > that involves both Arnold Schoenberg and Perl. > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > (i.e. volunteer to give a lightning talk? ) > > > > George > > > > ............................. > > Cut & Paste of Meeting Announcement > > from http://oakland.pm.org > > ............................ > > Come to our next meeting: > > > > when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. > > (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) > > where: Arden Schaeffer's place > > 413 61st Street, Oakland CA > > directions: original, Arden's > > theme: Readable Code > > what: > > > > introductions > > a lottery > > short talks & lightning talks > > ... > > > > who: open to anyone interested. > > how much: no fee for our meetings. > > _______________________________________________ > > Oakland mailing list > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From robert-kuropkat at attbi.com Thu Jun 26 14:52:00 2003 From: robert-kuropkat at attbi.com (robert-kuropkat@attbi.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks Message-ID: <200306261952.h5QJqAj13718@mail.pm.org> Sounds good. I could easily to a lightening, short or long talk on the particular subject depending on how much time I have to put it together. I will target the 5-15 min range for now. Given I have a strong interest, but not a strong background in the subject, that would be about perfect. Robert Kuropkat > Robert, > Good question. > How about roughly 5 to 15 minutes. > If you want more time than that, > how about letting me know what you need. > George > > On Thursday 26 June 2003 11:04 am, robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > > BTW, if a lightening talk is 5 min's or less, how long should a "short > > talk" be? > > > > Robert Kuropkat > > > > > The theme of the July meeting is Readable Code. > > > So far three people have volunteered to give short talks: > > > Robert Kuropkat, Edwin Sakumoto and myself. > > > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > > (i.e. volunteer to give a short talk or lightning talk, > > > related to the theme Readable Code?) > > > > > > Also, if things go as expected for the July meeting, > > > Mark Theodoropoulos > > > will be giving his long awaited lightning talk > > > that involves both Arnold Schoenberg and Perl. > > > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > > (i.e. volunteer to give a lightning talk? ) > > > > > > George > > > > > > ............................. > > > Cut & Paste of Meeting Announcement > > > from http://oakland.pm.org > > > ............................ > > > Come to our next meeting: > > > > > > when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. > > > (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) > > > where: Arden Schaeffer's place > > > 413 61st Street, Oakland CA > > > directions: original, Arden's > > > theme: Readable Code > > > what: > > > > > > introductions > > > a lottery > > > short talks & lightning talks > > > ... > > > > > > who: open to anyone interested. > > > how much: no fee for our meetings. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Oakland mailing list > > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Oakland mailing list > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From blyman at iii.com Thu Jun 26 15:05:56 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks References: <200306261952.h5QJqAj13718@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <3EFB5224.2090003@iii.com> robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > Sounds good. I could easily to a lightening, short or long talk on the > particular subject depending on how much time I have to put it together. I > will target the 5-15 min range for now. Given I have a strong interest, but > not a strong background in the subject, that would be about perfect. > > Robert Kuropkat > Asked and answered already, I'm sure - but what is Readable Code? The opposite of Obfuscated Code? Please give me a small teaser of what to expect from the upcoming July meeting... :) Belden From robert-kuropkat at attbi.com Thu Jun 26 15:32:30 2003 From: robert-kuropkat at attbi.com (robert-kuropkat@attbi.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks Message-ID: <200306262032.h5QKWij14049@mail.pm.org> Well, I have a good friend who refers to PERL as a "write-only" language because no one is really expected to read the code once it is written. I have also heard PERL often times referred to as "line noise" (regular expressions being the worst contributer to this). My particular talk will be on Literate Programming. This concept was pioneered by Donald Knuth in the early 80's. I'm not an expert on this subject, just a fan. Robert Kuropkat > > > robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > > Sounds good. I could easily to a lightening, short or long talk on the > > particular subject depending on how much time I have to put it together. I > > will target the 5-15 min range for now. Given I have a strong interest, but > > not a strong background in the subject, that would be about perfect. > > > > Robert Kuropkat > > > > Asked and answered already, I'm sure - but what is Readable Code? > The opposite of Obfuscated Code? Please give me a small teaser of > what to expect from the upcoming July meeting... :) > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From blyman at iii.com Thu Jun 26 15:44:55 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:32 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks References: <200306262032.h5QKWij14049@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <3EFB5B47.5030004@iii.com> robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > Well, I have a good friend who refers to PERL as a "write-only" language > because no one is really expected to read the code once it is written. I have > also heard PERL often times referred to as "line noise" (regular expressions > being the worst contributer to this). > > My particular talk will be on Literate Programming. This concept was pioneered > by Donald Knuth in the early 80's. I'm not an expert on this subject, just a > fan. > > Robert Kuropkat > Aha, thanks. Sounds quite interesting; will see you in July. Belden From edwincime at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 16:44:17 2003 From: edwincime at yahoo.com (Edwin s) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] July Meeting - Call for more talks In-Reply-To: <200306261214.22516.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <20030626214417.8533.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> Hello All, My topic will be "Here's an example of perl code using reg expressions commented well" limited to 5 -10 minutes, I will put it up on my server. Edwin George Woolley wrote: Robert, Good question. How about roughly 5 to 15 minutes. If you want more time than that, how about letting me know what you need. George On Thursday 26 June 2003 11:04 am, robert-kuropkat@attbi.com wrote: > BTW, if a lightening talk is 5 min's or less, how long should a "short > talk" be? > > Robert Kuropkat > > > The theme of the July meeting is Readable Code. > > So far three people have volunteered to give short talks: > > Robert Kuropkat, Edwin Sakumoto and myself. > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > (i.e. volunteer to give a short talk or lightning talk, > > related to the theme Readable Code?) > > > > Also, if things go as expected for the July meeting, > > Mark Theodoropoulos > > will be giving his long awaited lightning talk > > that involves both Arnold Schoenberg and Perl. > > > > Anyone else? <<<<<< > > (i.e. volunteer to give a lightning talk? ) > > > > George > > > > ............................. > > Cut & Paste of Meeting Announcement > > from http://oakland.pm.org > > ............................ > > Come to our next meeting: > > > > when: Tue. July 8, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. > > (We meet 2nd Tuesdays) > > where: Arden Schaeffer's place > > 413 61st Street, Oakland CA > > directions: original, Arden's > > theme: Readable Code > > what: > > > > introductions > > a lottery > > short talks & lightning talks > > ... > > > > who: open to anyone interested. > > how much: no fee for our meetings. > > _______________________________________________ > > Oakland mailing list > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland _______________________________________________ Oakland mailing list Oakland@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030626/76765530/attachment.htm From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 27 15:00:07 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Main Speakers? Discussion Coordinators? ... Message-ID: <200306271300.07487.george@metaart.org> Would anyone like to be: * the primary speaker for an Oakland.pm Perl meeting. * coordinate the main activity for an Oakland.pm Perl meeting (e.g. propose a discussion theme for a meeting; recruit preplanned speakers, if any; lead the discussion). If so, let me know. George Some Background Notes ......................................... Our current regular meeting time is the 2nd Tuesday of each month from 7:30pm to 9:30pm. Our current regular meeting place is the home of Arden Schaeffer, which is in the Rockridge area of Oakland. The practice has been to place the agenda for the next meeting on our website within a day or two after our previous meeting. So, generally, the overall plan for a meeting is completed by the time the previous meeting takes place. Generally we begin our meetings with each person briefly introducing themselves and (hopefully) briefly saying more or less whatever they feel like. Sometimes we have goodies from O'Reilly to give out (in June based on a very simple lottery). Sometimes we have a brief report or reports (e.g. on the Perl Basics Mailing List). For our main activity, sometimes we've had a primary speaker as the focus of the meeting. Sometimes we've had a theme with shorter talks and/or discussion concerning it. There are certainly other possibilities. We've had a number of lightning talks, some related directly to the focus or theme of the meeting, some not. The July meeting agenda has been announced. Edwin Sakumoto has volunteered to plan the August meeting with me and we're in the process of doing that. If anyone wants to take on September, October, November or December, let me know. From george at metaart.org Fri Jun 27 23:47:07 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-06-27 Message-ID: <200306272147.07964.george@metaart.org> The O'Reilly UG newsletter of 2003-06-27 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030627.txt should you wish to read it. George ........................................................................ extracted from the newsletter: ........................................................................ ... ***Perl 6 Essentials Order Number: 4990 "Perl 6 Essentials" is the first book to offer a peek into the next major version of the Perl language. It covers the development of Perl 6 syntax as well as Parrot, the language-independent interpreter developed as part of the Perl 6 design strategy. This book is essential reading for anyone interested in the future of Perl. It will satisfy your curiosity and show you how changes in the language will make Perl more powerful and easier to use. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perl6es/ Chapter 1, "Project Overview," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perl6es/chapter/index.html ... From arden at lmi.net Sat Jun 28 12:41:27 2003 From: arden at lmi.net (Arden Schaeffer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Re: Checks Message-ID: On Date: Tuesday 24 June 2003 5:07 p.m., David Fetter wrote: To: oakland@mail.pm.org Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. Yes, I'm aware that each time somebody "will get less than they paid for," and somebody more, but in truth, what you're paying for at a restaurant is only about 5% food, the rest going to facilities, staff, the fact that you can send your food back if you don't like it, etc., etc. If somebody eats grossly more than everybody else in a situation like that, peer pressure works just great. Anonymous bundles of cash going around the table encourages people to...how do I put this gently...underestimate their contribution. What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next one? Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 _______________________________________________ Arden answers: To all: if we who consume very little are expected to pay for those who consume much, (which will put pressure to pay on us and pressure to not consume on them), then i won't attend. A better policy would be to hold all meetings in places that give separate checks with good grace. What think ye all? ~Arden From david at fetter.org Sat Jun 28 12:42:37 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Re: Checks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030628174237.GM31618@fetter.org> On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 10:41:27AM -0700, Arden Schaeffer wrote: > On Date: Tuesday 24 June 2003 5:07 p.m., David Fetter > > Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have > > a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. > > Yes, I'm aware that each time somebody "will get less than they > > paid for," and somebody more, but in truth, what you're paying for > > at a restaurant is only about 5% food, the rest going to > > facilities, staff, the fact that you can send your food back if > > you don't like it, etc., etc. If somebody eats grossly more than > > everybody else in a situation like that, peer pressure works just > > great. Anonymous bundles of cash going around the table > > encourages people to...how do I put this gently...underestimate > > their contribution. > > What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next one? > To all: if we who consume very little are expected to pay for those > who consume much, (which will put pressure to pay on us and pressure > to not consume on them), then i won't attend. While we seem to have a slight definitional difference of "consume," that being food/drinks vs. the restaurant experience, I agree that... > A better policy would be to hold all meetings in places that give > separate checks with good grace. And Belden has come up with a slew of 'em :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From arden at lmi.net Sat Jun 28 13:11:09 2003 From: arden at lmi.net (Arden Schaeffer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] In-Reply-To: <3EF9CDEE.80406@iii.com> Message-ID: Belden: Many thanx for your suggestions. ~Arden On Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003, at 09:29 US/Pacific, Belden Lyman wrote: > From: Belden Lyman > Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 09:29:34 US/Pacific > To: oakland@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [oak perl] Checks [was So Long To Mike] > Reply-To: oakland@mail.pm.org > > > > David Fetter wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 08:29:15AM -0700, Belden Lyman wrote: >>> David Fetter wrote: >>>> Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have >>>> a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. >>>> [...] What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next >>>> one? >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> D >>> >>> I think this is a good idea. In the future we could avoid the whole >>> mess by choosing a different venue- one which will provide seperate >>> checks. >> I don't know of any such venues. Anybody? > > Some bars; Brennan's in *cough* Berkeley has cafeteria-style service > (complete with trays!). Isobune along College in Oakland is a sushi- > boat restaurant, I think they'll split checks. Cato's along Piedmont > has the booth in the back where one pays when ordering one's food. > > Rolling Dunes is a fried hamburger sandwiches, crepes, and sliced- > cake type of restaurant; there's one on Piedmont, and another around > the corner from the Grand. Order and pay at the counter, take a > number, > food arrives shortly. The Crepevine is another such restaurant, absent > the fried hamburger sandwiches. > > Brennan's is very large - always seating available (save St. Patrick's > Day, perhaps). Rolling Dunes doesn't seem to ever seem to get full up. > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > From arden at lmi.net Sat Jun 28 13:23:04 2003 From: arden at lmi.net (Arden Schaeffer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:33 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Re: Checks In-Reply-To: <20030628174237.GM31618@fetter.org> Message-ID: <8F2BA28C-A995-11D7-95B7-0003934696D8@lmi.net> When one consumes food or beverage, it's then gone, so one cannot have one's cake and eat it too; but does one really consume one's experience of a restaurant? or does time consume the experience, as it consume all else in the field of space-time? In any case, we all owe Belden our thanks for his excellent list, which i finally found aftyer i had mislaid it while reorganizing my mailboxes. On Saturday, Jun 28, 2003, at 10:42 US/Pacific, David Fetter wrote: > On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 10:41:27AM -0700, Arden Schaeffer wrote: >> On Date: Tuesday 24 June 2003 5:07 p.m., David Fetter > >>> Given the situation with the check--$80 short at first cut--I have >>> a modest proposal: everybody pays exactly the same when we go out. >>> Yes, I'm aware that each time somebody "will get less than they >>> paid for," and somebody more, but in truth, what you're paying for >>> at a restaurant is only about 5% food, the rest going to >>> facilities, staff, the fact that you can send your food back if >>> you don't like it, etc., etc. If somebody eats grossly more than >>> everybody else in a situation like that, peer pressure works just >>> great. Anonymous bundles of cash going around the table >>> encourages people to...how do I put this gently...underestimate >>> their contribution. > >>> What say we just set this as a policy in advance for the next one? > >> To all: if we who consume very little are expected to pay for those >> who consume much, (which will put pressure to pay on us and pressure >> to not consume on them), then i won't attend. > > While we seem to have a slight definitional difference of "consume," > that being food/drinks vs. the restaurant experience, I agree that... > >> A better policy would be to hold all meetings in places that give >> separate checks with good grace. > > And Belden has come up with a slew of 'em :) > > Cheers, > D > -- > David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ > phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland >