From siegler at visi.com Fri Jan 3 00:13:56 2003 From: siegler at visi.com (Chris Siegler) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Just to get a jump on it for next month... In-Reply-To: <1049DA24-1C78-11D7-B420-003065F6D85A@mathforum.org> References: <20021231013703.GA9608@isis.visi.com> <1049DA24-1C78-11D7-B420-003065F6D85A@mathforum.org> Message-ID: <20030103061356.GA8666@localhost.localdomain> Ken Williams wrote: > > On Monday, December 30, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Patrick McNamee wrote: > > >On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 04:23:07PM -0600, Troy Johnson wrote: > >>...when and where is the meeting? > > > >Once the meeting data has been established, I will update the web > >site with the info, directions, etc. > > Does the group still do presentations sometimes? I've got a few power > point presos stored up from being A Student Again. Sort of like some of > the stuff I've done before, but it could fill the time and get us in a > room. > > -Ken > What are the presentations on? > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org > with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From shamu112 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 10:08:32 2003 From: shamu112 at hotmail.com (Mark Mykkanen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? Message-ID: Is there a meeting this evening? If so, where is it being held? Mark Mykkanen _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Wed Jan 8 12:46:17 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Mark Mykkanen wrote: > Is there a meeting this evening? If so, where is it being held? Doh, it's the second Wednesday already! Argh, it shouldn't count. I suppose if people wanted to have an informal meeting at Espresso Royale we could do that, but I doubt Ken's ready to give his presentation, and we don't have a space for one anyway. -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From craig at wavefront.net Wed Jan 8 13:18:43 2003 From: craig at wavefront.net (Craig S. Wilson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030108131507.03a3ad70@127.0.0.1> At 12:46 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Mark Mykkanen wrote: > > > Is there a meeting this evening? If so, where is it being held? > >Doh, it's the second Wednesday already! Argh, it shouldn't count. I >suppose if people wanted to have an informal meeting at Espresso Royale we >could do that, but I doubt Ken's ready to give his presentation, and we >don't have a space for one anyway. I could make it. I wouldn't mind having an informal discussion of the benefits of 'code embedded in data' versus 'data embedded in code'. This is regarding programming web sites. ------------------------------------------------------------- Craig S. Wilson craig@wavefront.net 651-638-9594 612-865-8794 (cell) -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From ken at mathforum.org Wed Jan 8 13:59:13 2003 From: ken at mathforum.org (Ken Williams) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 12:46 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Mark Mykkanen wrote: > >> Is there a meeting this evening? If so, where is it being held? > > Doh, it's the second Wednesday already! Argh, it shouldn't count. I > suppose if people wanted to have an informal meeting at Espresso > Royale we > could do that, but I doubt Ken's ready to give his presentation, and we > don't have a space for one anyway. Eek, I was still thinking they were near the end of the month. Tonight's not great for me. I could do it next Wednesday, though - Tim, can we get a room at Veritas for it? -Ken -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Wed Jan 8 14:16:32 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Ken Williams wrote: > Eek, I was still thinking they were near the end of the month. > Tonight's not great for me. I could do it next Wednesday, though - > Tim, can we get a room at Veritas for it? We want to avoid 3rd Wednesdays cause that conflicts with SIGBAP. How about you do your presentation next month (February?12)? -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From eibner at mnmailhost.bridge.com Wed Jan 8 14:34:26 2003 From: eibner at mnmailhost.bridge.com (Thomas Eibner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030108131507.03a3ad70@127.0.0.1> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030108131507.03a3ad70@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030108203425.GA3310@mnsdev3> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:18:43PM -0600, Craig S. Wilson wrote: > At 12:46 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, you wrote: > >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Mark Mykkanen wrote: > > > >> Is there a meeting this evening? If so, where is it being held? > > > >Doh, it's the second Wednesday already! Argh, it shouldn't count. I > >suppose if people wanted to have an informal meeting at Espresso Royale we > >could do that, but I doubt Ken's ready to give his presentation, and we > >don't have a space for one anyway. > > > I could make it. I could probabbly also make it if I stretch my plans. Thomas Eibner -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Wed Jan 8 15:05:11 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: meeting tonight Message-ID: So it looks like there's folks interested, so let's say 7PM at Espresso Royale on Hennepin Ave: http://www.espressoroyale.com/locations_detail.cfm?state=Minnesota 2nd listing -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Thu Jan 9 16:04:04 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Picking up the ball Message-ID: [ CC'd to the Mpls Perl Monger list, Matt Sergeant, and David Wheeler, all of whom have expressed some interest in the topic. I'd suggest that further discussion be solely on the datetime@perl.org list, however. ] Ok, the state of Perl's date and time modules continues to suck. They all have different APIs, they all overlap each other, but very few cooperate in any real way. This is so freaking lame! Why can't I get something back from Date::Manip that works with Date::Calc, or that has an API like Date::ICal or Time::Piece? Why? Why? Why? I don't know why, but it's time to change it. First, let me summarize some of the past discussion along these lines. Shane tests this list. It works. A promising beginning - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00001.html Rich Bowen's "Grand Unified Theory of Date/Time modules - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00009.html Also read Rich's edited version of his original proposal: http://dates.rcbowen.com/unified_edited.txt Lots of discussion on this thread. I think Rich's basic points all still stand, and his ideas are all good. The only thing I think left out in Rich's proposal is that a base DateTime object should support fractions of a second. This could probably be optional, since most people won't need it. As a side note, there's a Perl interface to libtai64 called Time::TAI64 (marked as beta and not updated in about 5 months). TAI64 is apparently the current standard, but I'm not sure that really means we have to use it ;) Later, Rich posted a message about namespaces wherein he proposed a set of top 2-level datetime-related namespaces. Also some discussion of Date:: vs. Time:: in this thread. A good start but needs more stuff (I'll come back to this) - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00095.html Skud asks all the datetime module authors to identify themselves - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00111.html Rich outlines some proposed namespace changes based on his earlier proposal - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00145.html Skud made a list opf everyone on the list, which provides a handy, though a bit outdated, list of date & time modules - http://infotrope.net/opensource/software/perl6/modules/author-groups/datetime/ Even more discussion on namespaces - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00208.html After this, it all sort of dies down until someone pops back up in February, 2002 and asks "why does this all still suck?" - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00317.html Rich says he gave up trying to herd the cats - http://archive.develooper.com/datetime@perl.org/msg00320.html And last but not least, my recent rant in my use.perl journal about how this _still_ sucks, which prompted some discussion in the comments - http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=10459 As part of the discussion I posted a quick proposal for fixing the mess, and I'll restate a refined version of that in a second. In a response to that proposal Jesse Vincent pointed out that there was code for timezones in the reefknot CVS as Date::ICal::TimeZone. Thanks Jesse! Ok, so here's my proposal. 1. Stop herding cats. If existing module authors don't want to play, then screw them. I don't want to spend lots of time arguing about namespaces and whether modules should move to a new namespace or any such crap. I want to have a suite of modules that actually work together, instead of a big mess of random crap! 2. Use the DateTime:: namespace. The modules@perl.org cabal doesn't like it? That's nice. Their buy-in is nice, but lack thereof does not prevent success. And in my experience, when presented with working code that's being used by a bunch of people, they may accept a namespace previously deemed unacceptable. Why a new top-level namespace? Well, what's the difference between Date:: and Time::? Not much, in most cases. It seems like the authors of these modules mostly picked one at random. There are a few exceptions, like Time::HiRes, but other than that, it's ridiculous. Moreover, the DateTime:: space is empty except for one module, and so it won't be cluttered by a million overlapping older modules. So it provides a nice psychological benefit of dropping the baggage. 3. Start with set of base data objects around which functionality can be built. NOTE: I am not particularly wedded to any of these namespaces, I'm just trying to outline the basic functionality I think is needed for a good suite of datetime modules. OTOH, I don't want to spend lots of time arguing about the damn namespaces! - DateTime::Object - Yeah, I know Rich hates class names that describe the implementation, so maybe DateTime::Base. I don't care too much. The namespace should make it should be obvious that this is the basic building block for all datetime functionality in the suite. A good candidate for this is the existing Date::ICal code, with a bunch of the Time::Piece convenience methods thrown in for good measure. The only thing Date::Ical needs is to add support for fractional seconds. There's also Class::Date and Date::Handler. But I really want to recruit Rich for this, so I lean towards using a tweaked Date::ICal for the base object. -- Simple OO interface for getting pieces of the date, formatting for display, etc. Date::ICal and Time::Piece have a good API for this already. I think Time::Piece may have _too many_ methods, but Date::ICal doesn't have quite enough. -- It must work outside of epoch times. Date::ICal - check! -- It should handle fractional seconds. Based on a brief perusal of Date::ICal, I think this can be added without too much difficulty. -- Provides simple date parsing ala Time::Piece->strptime. Maybe throw in the functionality provided by Date::Parse? Maybe make this a separate module. Doesn't matter too much. -- Complex date parsing to be provided by a separate module (refactored Date::Manip, I hope). -- Real timezone support (Olsen database), something totally lacking in Perl right now. We need to finish up the Date::ICal::Timezone stuff Jesse pointed me at. -- Date calculations ala Date::Calc. Some of what Date::Calc provides doesn't really return _dates_ per se, and that can go in a separate module. - DateTime::Delta - Date::ICal::Duration. Also look at some of the convenience constants provided by Time::Seconds (which comes with Time::Piece). -- Should handle business versus normal days. -- Should be possible to plug in holiday calendars for business day calculation. See Date::Calendar in Date::Calc. - DateTime::Set - See Date::Set -- Needs to handle both finite and infinite sets. Should allow set to be created as explicit set of DateTime::Object objects, _or_ via recurring specifier. -- Should function as an iterator my $datetime = $dt_set->next; my $datetime = $dt_set->next( after => $datetime ); my $datetime = $dt_set->next( before => $datetime ); my $datetime = $dt_set->prev( before => $datetime ); You get the picture. -- Provide complex recurring specifier parsing, again this should probably come from a recfactored Date::Manip. - DateTime::Span my $span = DateTime::Span->( begin => $datetime, end => $datetime ); my $span = DateTime::Span->( datetime => $datetime, delta => $delta ); if ( $span->contains( $some_datetime ) ) { ... } my $delta = DateTime::Span->delta; - DateTime::Span::Set -- Whee! Sets of datetime spans! Again, finite and infinite. my $span = $dt_span_set->next( begins_before => $datetime ); -- Complex parsing? "Every Tuesday in March from 3:30PM - 5:30PM" That'd be cool, but not crucial. - DateTime::Algorithm - aka Rich's proposed Date::Algorithm. Includes things like: -- DateTime::Algorithm::Leapyear -- DateTime::Algorithm::Passover - DateTime::Calendar - other calendars -- Must be interoperable with base datetime object! This means that we can convert back and forth between the two on demand. -- DateTime::Calendar::Chinese -- DateTime::Calendar::Discordian - DateTime::Event - Rich proposed DateTime::Holiday but Abigail pointed out that there are plenty of events that aren't holidays, per se. -- DateTime::Event::Christmas -- DateTime::Event::Christmas::EasternOrthodox -- DateTime::Event::FourthofJuly - for _very_ dumb people ;) As noted in this proposal, much of this already exists. Here's the modules I propose stealing heavily from: - Date::ICal & Time::Piece - Date::Calc and the stuff it comes from - Date::Set - Date::Parse (good simple parsing routine) - Date::Manip (the code is ugly but it does very cool things) - Date::ICal::Timezone - in reefknot CVS Modules from which there are no doubt good bits of code to steal, plus inspiration for various features - Class::Date - Date::Handler - Date::Convert - others, no doubt And here's a set of goals: 1. Produce the above-mentioned modules, starting with DateTime::Object, the base class. The most important thing here is to come up with an API, and a functional first implementation. Where possible, use existing code in new modules. Where that's impractical (Date::Calc), simply use the other module under the hood, and provide an API to it that fits into the rest of the scheme. Especially steal test suites from as many modules as possible! 2. Integrate everything into our datetime module suite codebase. This means that where things are being used under the hood, we re-implement as needed. 3. Now we have stuff that works. Good. At this point we focus on several separate goals. Optimizing the base pieces. For example, I'm sure a lot of the base date object and date math can be implemented in C. Same for date calculations (see Date::Calc). Work on complex bits like fancy date parsing (Date::Manip), datetime span sets. 4. ... 5. Profit! Ok, forget 4 & 5. But I think the rest are good ideas. So, who's ready to chew ass and kick some bubble-gum?! -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From cpj1 at isis.visi.com Thu Jan 9 18:14:04 2003 From: cpj1 at isis.visi.com (Chris Josephes) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Picking up the ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote: > 2. Use the DateTime:: namespace. The modules@perl.org cabal doesn't > like it? That's nice. Their buy-in is nice, but lack thereof does > not prevent success. And in my experience, when presented with > working code that's being used by a bunch of people, they may accept a > namespace previously deemed unacceptable. I don't have any complains about it. There's a chance that DateTime might cause confusion with Date:: and Time::, which would be a disadvantage. My only other suggested namespace would be "Horology::" which could be vague, but still conveys the purpose of the modules. > Why a new top-level namespace? Well, what's the difference between > Date:: and Time::? Not much, in most cases. It seems like the > authors of these modules mostly picked one at random. There are a few > exceptions, like Time::HiRes, but other than that, it's ridiculous. > Moreover, the DateTime:: space is empty except for one module, and so > it won't be cluttered by a million overlapping older modules. So it > provides a nice psychological benefit of dropping the baggage. For one thing, using an entirely seperate namespace would help to completely disassociate these modules from everything else in Date:: or Time::. Otherwise, we end up making the problem worse by making people wonder if the modules created by this project are somehow compatable with what is already out there. > 3. Start with set of base data objects around which functionality can be > built. > > NOTE: I am not particularly wedded to any of these namespaces, I'm just > trying to outline the basic functionality I think is needed for a good > suite of datetime modules. OTOH, I don't want to spend lots of time > arguing about the damn namespaces! > > - DateTime::Object - Yeah, I know Rich hates class names that describe > the implementation, so maybe DateTime::Base. I don't care too much. The > namespace should make it should be obvious that this is the basic building > block for all datetime functionality in the suite. A good candidate for > this is the existing Date::ICal code, with a bunch of the Time::Piece > convenience methods thrown in for good measure. The only thing Date::Ical > needs is to add support for fractional seconds. Why not just a DateTime object, like we already have a CGI object? > -- It must work outside of epoch times. Date::ICal - check! Can you elaborate more on your preference towards Date::ICal? Are you saying that you have a preference towards the ISO 8601 time representation (ie. "20030109T1808") for the internal data structure of the date/time data? You wrote a lot, which is good. I just wanted to comment on the Namespace stuff and the base class. -------------------- Christopher Josephes cpj1@visi.com -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From wilcoxon at bridge.com Fri Jan 10 11:37:27 2003 From: wilcoxon at bridge.com (Stephen R. Wilcoxon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Picking up the ball In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:04:04 CST." References: Message-ID: <200301101737.MAA27823@mnmailhost> On Thu 2003/01/09 16:04:04 CST, Dave Rolsky writes: > -- Provides simple date parsing ala Time::Piece->strptime. Maybe throw in > the functionality provided by Date::Parse? Maybe make this a separate > module. Doesn't matter too much. Simple parsing needs to be in the base module (yyyymmdd at least). I would prefer to see complex parsing put in a different module that could be included (or not) based on if your application needs any complex parsing. > -- Date calculations ala Date::Calc. Some of what Date::Calc provides > doesn't really return _dates_ per se, and that can go in a separate > module. The data manipulation functions need to be written in C (ala Date::Calc) for speed. We are using Date::Calc currently because it is the only module (of those we tested) that ran acceptably fast. > -- Should be possible to plug in holiday calendars for business day > calculation. See Date::Calendar in Date::Calc. It would be nice if we could come up with a pluggable holiday scheme (pass a code reference to the constructor and have it use that at a minimum). There are currently 3 formats (that I know of) for indicating holidays (depending on what module you're using) and alot of people have written their own already (our Date::Calc subclass uses a database table). > -- Complex parsing? "Every Tuesday in March from 3:30PM - 5:30PM" That'd > be cool, but not crucial. Agreed. That would be cool to put in the complex parsing module. > - DateTime::Calendar - other calendars > > -- Must be interoperable with base datetime object! This means that we > can convert back and forth between the two on demand. > > -- DateTime::Calendar::Chinese > -- DateTime::Calendar::Discordian DateTime::Calendar::Solar:: - there are at least 2 "common" solar calendars Ideally, it would be nice to be able to convert between all of the different calendars directly (ex some Asian holidays are still calculated based on non-Gregorian calendars (some countries have holidays calculated on at least 3 different calendars)). > - DateTime::Event - Rich proposed DateTime::Holiday but Abigail pointed > out that there are plenty of events that aren't holidays, per se. > > -- DateTime::Event::Christmas > -- DateTime::Event::Christmas::EasternOrthodox > -- DateTime::Event::FourthofJuly - for _very_ dumb people ;) DateTime::Event::Easter DateTime::Event::Equinox tons of middle-eastern holidays are also calculated in some strange manner I've never seen explained Events also need to be integrated with holidays (some holidays/events change based upon other ones) and weekend definitions (see below). > -- Should handle business versus normal days. This needs to be as flexible as possible. What days constitute weekends varies (sometimes for days worked and sometimes only for holiday calculations). What to do with holidays/events if they fall on weekends (or other holidays) varies (usually countries have a "move" forward/back rule for some holidays and a "ignore" it rule for other holidays but some countries vary more than that). Another thing that would be nice (not sure where it would go) would be some astronomical datetime conversion functions (such as converting between TD and UTC). This may become critical for certain things (the only accurate equinox algorithm I've found calculates in TD). -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From wilcoxon at bridge.com Fri Jan 10 11:43:22 2003 From: wilcoxon at bridge.com (Stephen R. Wilcoxon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: date/time questions Message-ID: <200301101743.MAA27945@mnmailhost> Dave's recent post on DateTime modules reminded me of a few questions I've been trying to find answers to. Does anybody have a good algorithm (or module) for converting between solar/ lunar, Chinese, Thai, or any other "obscure" calendars (mostly eastern or middle-eastern) and the normal calendar? Anybody know of any books with algorithms for this? Anybody know what TD time is and how to convert TD <-> UTC? Based on content, I think TD is some astronomical measure of time. The only good Equinox algorithm I've found calculates in TD time - I know TD time matched UTC time for some time LONG in the past, but there needs to be corrections made (that keep growing as time passes) and I have no idea what the correction/conversion alorithm is. -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From arthur.goldstein at att.net Fri Jan 10 12:09:26 2003 From: arthur.goldstein at att.net (arthur.goldstein@att.net) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: date/time questions Message-ID: <20030110180926.OUEU12483.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> I recommend Calendrical Calculations: The Millennium Edition by Edward M. Reingold (Author), Nachum Dershowitz (Author) Copying the amazon.com editorial review: This new edition of the successful calendars book is being published at the turn of the millennium and expands the treatment of the previous edition to new calendars and variants. As interest grows in the impact of seemingly arbitrary calendrical systems upon our daily lives, this book frames the world in a completely algorithmic form. The book gives a description of twenty-five calendars and how they relate to one another: the Gregorian (current civil), ISO (International Organization for Standardization), Egyptian (and nearly identical Armenian), Julian (old civil), Coptic, Ethiopic, Islamic (Moslem), modern Persian (both astronomical and arithmetic forms), Baha'i (both present and future forms), Hebrew (Jewish), Mayan (long count, haab, and tzolkin), Balinese Pawukon, French Revolutionary (both astronomical and arithmetic forms), Chinese (and nearly identical Japanese), old Hindu (solar and lunisolar), and modern Hindu (solar and lunisolar). Easy conversion among these calendars is a by-product of the approach, as is the determination of secular and religious holidays. Calendrical Calculations makes accurate calendrical algorithms readily available for computer use with LISP, Mathematica, and Java code for all the algorithms included on the CD, and updates are available on the Web. This book will be a valuable resource for working programmers as well as a fount of useful algorithmic tools for computer scientists. In addition, the lay reader will find the historical setting and general calendar descriptions of great interest > Dave's recent post on DateTime modules reminded me of a few questions I've > been trying to find answers to. > > Does anybody have a good algorithm (or module) for converting between solar/ > lunar, Chinese, Thai, or any other "obscure" calendars (mostly eastern or > middle-eastern) and the normal calendar? Anybody know of any books with > algorithms for this? > > Anybody know what TD time is and how to convert TD <-> UTC? Based on > content, I think TD is some astronomical measure of time. The only good > Equinox algorithm I've found calculates in TD time - I know TD time matched > UTC time for some time LONG in the past, but there needs to be corrections > made (that keep growing as time passes) and I have no idea what the > correction/conversion alorithm is. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org > with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From ken at mathforum.org Fri Jan 10 12:27:20 2003 From: ken at mathforum.org (Ken Williams) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Picking up the ball In-Reply-To: <200301101737.MAA27823@mnmailhost> Message-ID: <27B0E319-24C9-11D7-B80E-003065F6D85A@mathforum.org> On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 11:37 AM, Stephen R. Wilcoxon wrote: > On Thu 2003/01/09 16:04:04 CST, Dave Rolsky writes: > >> -- Provides simple date parsing ala Time::Piece->strptime. Maybe >> throw in >> the functionality provided by Date::Parse? Maybe make this a separate >> module. Doesn't matter too much. > > Simple parsing needs to be in the base module (yyyymmdd at least). I > would > prefer to see complex parsing put in a different module that could be > included (or not) based on if your application needs any complex > parsing. Yeah, the base module should accept several different non-ambiguous "canonical" formats such as the ones used in RFCs, and things like YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS. A supplementary module could handle fuzzy stuff like "3 days ago" and "a month from tomorrow". Just trying to codify my idea of simple vs. complex. > The data manipulation functions need to be written in C (ala > Date::Calc) > for speed. We are using Date::Calc currently because it is the only > module > (of those we tested) that ran acceptably fast. That's really an implementation question, though. The interfaces can be architected first without regard to the backend implementation. -Ken -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From bparker at pobox.com Sat Jan 11 11:37:56 2003 From: bparker at pobox.com (Brian Parker) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Picking up the ball Message-ID: <1042306676.3e205674314fe@my.visi.com> > > So, who's ready to chew ass and kick some bubble-gum?! > > Thanks for putting all the history in one place for us. I'm sure there will be some details to work out, but I see no reason not to go forward with your proposal (as it stands). I'd like to help. I'll need to review all that you have provided more closly before volunteering for a specific piece. regards, Brian Parker -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From matt at omega.org Wed Jan 15 16:15:45 2003 From: matt at omega.org (Matthew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20030115161319.00baad40@fastmail.fm> Dave (and all): Are you going to the SIGBAP tonight? I'll be heading there. If you are going and would like a lift, let me know. -Matt Johnson h: 952-591-0895 * * * * * * * * * * * * SIGBAP MEETING NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * * Who: You, and anyone you'd care to bring What: Special Interest Group on Beer And Pizza (SIGBAP) When: Wednesday, Jan 15, 2003 7:00pm Where: Old Chicago Pizza at the Har-Mar Mall (651-639-0303) 2100 N. Snelling Avenue, Roseville, MN Why: Good Pizza, Good Beer, Good People How: This is very easy to find. Har-Mar is located just South of Highway 36 on Snelling. * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * At 02:16 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Ken Williams wrote: > > > Eek, I was still thinking they were near the end of the month. > > Tonight's not great for me. I could do it next Wednesday, though - > > Tim, can we get a room at Veritas for it? > >We want to avoid 3rd Wednesdays cause that conflicts with SIGBAP. How >about you do your presentation next month (February 12)? > > >-dave > >/*======================= >House Absolute Consulting >www.houseabsolute.com >=======================*/ > > >-------------------------------------------------- >Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > >To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org >with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From shamu112 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 18:19:49 2003 From: shamu112 at hotmail.com (Mark Mykkanen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? Message-ID: I'll be there. Mark Mykkanen >From: Matthew Johnson >Reply-To: mpls@pm.org >To: >Subject: Re: [mplspm]: PM meeting - 01/08/03 ??? >Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:15:45 -0600 > >Dave (and all): > >Are you going to the SIGBAP tonight? I'll be heading there. If you are >going and would like a lift, let me know. > > -Matt Johnson > h: 952-591-0895 > > >* * * * * * * * * * * * SIGBAP MEETING NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * * > >Who: You, and anyone you'd care to bring >What: Special Interest Group on Beer And Pizza (SIGBAP) >When: Wednesday, Jan 15, 2003 7:00pm >Where: Old Chicago Pizza at the Har-Mar Mall (651-639-0303) > 2100 N. Snelling Avenue, Roseville, MN >Why: Good Pizza, Good Beer, Good People >How: This is very easy to find. Har-Mar is located just South of > Highway 36 on Snelling. >* * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * >* * * * * * * * * > > >At 02:16 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, you wrote: >>On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Ken Williams wrote: >> >> > Eek, I was still thinking they were near the end of the month. >> > Tonight's not great for me. I could do it next Wednesday, though - >> > Tim, can we get a room at Veritas for it? >> >>We want to avoid 3rd Wednesdays cause that conflicts with SIGBAP. How >>about you do your presentation next month (February 12)? >> >> >>-dave >> >>/*======================= >>House Absolute Consulting >>www.houseabsolute.com >>=======================*/ >> >> >>-------------------------------------------------- >>Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list >> >>To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org >>with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- >Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > >To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org >with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Tue Jan 28 16:13:56 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? Message-ID: Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. If so, do we have a meeting space where such a thing can happen? Tim? Anybody? -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From ken at mathforum.org Tue Jan 28 16:21:30 2003 From: ken at mathforum.org (Ken Williams) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:46 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Re: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 04:13 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote: > Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. > Yup, I can. Is it still the second Wednesday, i.e. February 12? > If so, do we have a meeting space where such a thing can happen? Tim? > Anybody? Tim? Dave W.? Bueller? -Ken -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Tue Jan 28 16:22:44 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Re: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ken Williams wrote: > > Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. > > > > Yup, I can. Is it still the second Wednesday, i.e. February 12? That's the theory, anyway. We still need to secure a venue. -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From ken at mathforum.org Tue Jan 28 16:26:32 2003 From: ken at mathforum.org (Ken Williams) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Re: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8DECBCD3-330F-11D7-BEB2-003065F6D85A@mathforum.org> On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 04:22 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ken Williams wrote: > >>> Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. >>> >> >> Yup, I can. Is it still the second Wednesday, i.e. February 12? > > That's the theory, anyway. We still need to secure a venue. Gah, on second look (or actually, first look) I'm going to be out of town on the 12th. I'm in town the next week, though. What a mess! -Ken -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From tim.burlowski at veritas.com Tue Jan 28 18:48:55 2003 From: tim.burlowski at veritas.com (Tim Burlowski) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: ; from autarch@urth.org on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 04:13:56PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20030128184855.A8757@maple.min.veritas.com> Hmm, I don't know, but I can check. What was the date and time again? tim Previously Dave Rolsky(autarch@urth.org) wrote: > Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. > > If so, do we have a meeting space where such a thing can happen? Tim? > Anybody? > > > -dave > > /*======================= > House Absolute Consulting > www.houseabsolute.com > =======================*/ > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org > with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. -- tim burlowski ======================================== -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From autarch at urth.org Tue Jan 28 17:48:52 2003 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: <20030128184855.A8757@maple.min.veritas.com> References: <20030128184855.A8757@maple.min.veritas.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Tim Burlowski wrote: > Hmm, I don't know, but I can check. > > What was the date and time again? Um, looks like March now, since Ken is gone on the meeting night. Why don't you check out March 12? -dave /*======================= House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com =======================*/ -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From josha at mac.com Tue Jan 28 17:59:50 2003 From: josha at mac.com (Josh Aas) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: <20030128184855.A8757@maple.min.veritas.com> Message-ID: <9671DE6E-331C-11D7-AC09-000393923EDA@mac.com> Can I get a ride to the next meeting from somebody? I'm at Macalester College. Thanks in advance, Josh Aas On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 06:48 PM, Tim Burlowski wrote: > Hmm, I don't know, but I can check. > > What was the date and time again? > > tim > > Previously Dave Rolsky(autarch@urth.org) wrote: > >> Ken, are you giving a presentation at the next meeting. >> >> If so, do we have a meeting space where such a thing can happen? Tim? >> Anybody? >> >> >> -dave >> >> /*======================= >> House Absolute Consulting >> www.houseabsolute.com >> =======================*/ >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list >> >> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org >> with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. > > -- > tim burlowski > ======================================== > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org > with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. > -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From tim.burlowski at veritas.com Wed Jan 29 09:41:57 2003 From: tim.burlowski at veritas.com (Tim Burlowski) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: ; from autarch@urth.org on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 05:48:52PM -0600 References: <20030128184855.A8757@maple.min.veritas.com> Message-ID: <20030129094157.A10146@maple.min.veritas.com> Will do. tim Previously Dave Rolsky(autarch@urth.org) wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Tim Burlowski wrote: > > > Hmm, I don't know, but I can check. > > > > What was the date and time again? > > Um, looks like March now, since Ken is gone on the meeting night. Why > don't you check out March 12? > > > -dave > > /*======================= > House Absolute Consulting > www.houseabsolute.com > =======================*/ > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org > with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. -- tim burlowski ======================================== -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From James.FitzGibbon at target.com Wed Jan 29 08:51:13 2003 From: James.FitzGibbon at target.com (James.FitzGibbon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? Message-ID: > Um, looks like March now, since Ken is gone on the meeting night. Why > don't you check out March 12? So what's the verdict on tonight? Is there a meeting, and where ? -- j. James FitzGibbon Consultant, Ajilon Services, TTS-3D@CC-950 james.fitzgibbon@target.com voice/fax 612-304-6121/3277 -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From ken at mathforum.org Wed Jan 29 10:35:37 2003 From: ken at mathforum.org (Ken Williams) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 08:51 AM, James.FitzGibbon wrote: >> Um, looks like March now, since Ken is gone on the meeting night. Why >> don't you check out March 12? > > So what's the verdict on tonight? Is there a meeting, and where ? > I don't know that there was ever one scheduled - we're using the second Wednesday of the month as a de facto regular meeting time, so the next will be on February 12. The last one was on January 8. -Ken -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message. From James.FitzGibbon at target.com Wed Jan 29 10:59:17 2003 From: James.FitzGibbon at target.com (James.FitzGibbon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:29:47 2004 Subject: [mplspm]: Next meeting: presentation? Message-ID: > I don't know that there was ever one scheduled - we're using > the second > Wednesday of the month as a de facto regular meeting time, so > the next > will be on February 12. The last one was on January 8. My bad. Days blurry. Must break chain holding me to desk.... -- j. James FitzGibbon Consultant, Ajilon Services, TTS-3D@CC-950 james.fitzgibbon@target.com voice/fax 612-304-6121/3277 -------------------------------------------------- Minneapolis Perl Mongers mailing list To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pm.org with "unsubscribe mpls" in the body of the message.