From alfiej at opera.com Tue Jul 3 15:26:48 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 08:26:48 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] July's meeting? In-Reply-To: <1340746297.9864.140661094411937.632AAC83@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1339968843.28481.140661090437517.6F581443@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1340746297.9864.140661094411937.632AAC83@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1341354408.8146.140661097497673.47C4C96B@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi everyone, Nobody has put up their hand to present at next week's meeting. If we don't see anything on the list by the end of today, I think we skip this month's meeting. Alfie On Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 07:31 AM, Alfie John wrote: > Hello Perl Mongers, > > I still haven't heard from anyone about giving a talk for July. Did > anyone want to put up their hand? > > Alfie > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 07:34 AM, Alfie John wrote: > > Hello Perl Mongers, > > > > Thanks to Toby and Strategic Data for organising the previous meetings > > while I was on leave. > > > > Opera Software are able to host the next meeting on the 11th of July. > > > > Is anyone available to give a talk for July? Or is there any subject > > that people want to listen to, in the hope that somebody else might give > > a talk on? > > > > Alfie > > > > -- > > Alfie John > > alfiej at opera.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From alfiej at opera.com Tue Jul 10 17:56:19 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:56:19 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] No meeting tonight In-Reply-To: <1341354408.8146.140661097497673.47C4C96B@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1339968843.28481.140661090437517.6F581443@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1340746297.9864.140661094411937.632AAC83@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1341354408.8146.140661097497673.47C4C96B@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1341968179.19043.140661100444601.5BFAF833@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi Perl Mongers, With the lack of talks this month, there will be no meeting tonight. Alfie On Wed, Jul 4, 2012, at 08:26 AM, Alfie John wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Nobody has put up their hand to present at next week's meeting. If we > don't see anything on the list by the end of today, I think we skip this > month's meeting. > > Alfie > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 07:31 AM, Alfie John wrote: > > Hello Perl Mongers, > > > > I still haven't heard from anyone about giving a talk for July. Did > > anyone want to put up their hand? > > > > Alfie > > > > -- > > Alfie John > > alfiej at opera.com > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 07:34 AM, Alfie John wrote: > > > Hello Perl Mongers, > > > > > > Thanks to Toby and Strategic Data for organising the previous meetings > > > while I was on leave. > > > > > > Opera Software are able to host the next meeting on the 11th of July. > > > > > > Is anyone available to give a talk for July? Or is there any subject > > > that people want to listen to, in the hope that somebody else might give > > > a talk on? > > > > > > Alfie > > > > > > -- > > > Alfie John > > > alfiej at opera.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From sam at nipl.net Tue Jul 10 20:45:03 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:45:03 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] possible talk on 'net2sh' Message-ID: <20120711034503.GC26747@opal.nipl.net> I made a flow based programming system 'net2sh', based on shell and with tools written mostly in perl (plus existing tools). It's a simple self-hosted translator, with also a tool 'net2dot' for making graphs. Could talk about that at next meeting if would be of interest, or on list; or not! It's here: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/ net2sh source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh.net graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2sh.dot.png shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh net2dot source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot.net graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2dot.dot.png shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot Sam From alfiej at opera.com Wed Jul 11 13:57:15 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 06:57:15 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] possible talk on 'net2sh' In-Reply-To: <20120711034503.GC26747@opal.nipl.net> References: <20120711034503.GC26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: <1342040235.13424.140661100848365.1FA0967F@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hey Sam, Giving a talk about it next month would be great. Is there anyone else who think they might have a talk ready for next month's meeting? Alfie On Wed, Jul 11, 2012, at 01:45 PM, Sam Watkins wrote: > I made a flow based programming system 'net2sh', based on shell > and with tools written mostly in perl (plus existing tools). > It's a simple self-hosted translator, with also a tool 'net2dot' > for making graphs. > > Could talk about that at next meeting if would be of interest, > or on list; or not! > > It's here: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/ > > net2sh source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh.net > graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2sh.dot.png > shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh > > net2dot source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot.net > graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2dot.dot.png > shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot > > > Sam > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From rob at eatenbyagrue.org Wed Jul 11 15:40:26 2012 From: rob at eatenbyagrue.org (Robert Norris) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:40:26 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] possible talk on 'net2sh' In-Reply-To: <1342040235.13424.140661100848365.1FA0967F@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20120711034503.GC26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342040235.13424.140661100848365.1FA0967F@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Alfie, perhaps you could give a short talk on the vagaries of conditional my? :) On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Alfie John wrote: > Hey Sam, > > Giving a talk about it next month would be great. > > Is there anyone else who think they might have a talk ready for next > month's meeting? > > Alfie > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012, at 01:45 PM, Sam Watkins wrote: >> I made a flow based programming system 'net2sh', based on shell >> and with tools written mostly in perl (plus existing tools). >> It's a simple self-hosted translator, with also a tool 'net2dot' >> for making graphs. >> >> Could talk about that at next meeting if would be of interest, >> or on list; or not! >> >> It's here: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/ >> >> net2sh source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh.net >> graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2sh.dot.png >> shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2sh >> >> net2dot source: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot.net >> graph: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/g/net2dot.dot.png >> shell: http://sam.nipl.net/code/net2sh/net2dot >> >> >> Sam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From alfiej at opera.com Wed Jul 11 16:00:20 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:00:20 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals Message-ID: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi guys, Thanks to Rob Norris for reminding me to bring up my rant on Google+ What do people think about the following? -- 8< -- #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; sub foo { my ( $bar ) =@_; my $baz = $bar if $bar; print "baz = $baz\n"; $baz = 42; } foo( 1 ); foo( 1 ); foo( 0 ); foo( 0 ); -- >8 -- Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jul 11 16:24:59 2012 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:24:59 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <4FFE0B4B.70306@dealmax.com.au> On 12/07/12 09:00, Alfie John wrote: > What do people think about the following? That is just plain nasty! Is that a Perl bug or is there a "rational" explanation? K -- Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd (w) +61 (0) 3 9008 5281 Suite 1415 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 From adam at macleod.id.au Wed Jul 11 16:33:15 2012 From: adam at macleod.id.au (Adam MacLeod) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:33:15 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Hey Guys, I showed this behaviour to a work colleague, and he came up with the following: -- 8< -- #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; sub foo { my $baz = 0 if 0; $baz ||= 0; print "baz = $baz\n"; $baz += 10; } sub bar { my $baz = 0 if 0; $baz ||= 0; print "baz = $baz\n"; $baz += 100; } foo; bar; foo; bar; foo; bar; foo; bar; -- >8 -- $baz isn't global, but it persists locally between calls. Does anyone know exactly what is happening here? I'm relatively new to Perl and might just be missing something easy :) Cheers, Adam On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Alfie John wrote: > Hi guys, > > Thanks to Rob Norris for reminding me to bring up my rant on Google+ > > What do people think about the following? > > -- 8< -- > > #!/usr/bin/perl > > use strict; > use warnings; > > sub foo { > my ( $bar ) =@_; > > my $baz = $bar if $bar; > print "baz = $baz\n"; > > $baz = 42; > } > > foo( 1 ); > foo( 1 ); > foo( 0 ); > foo( 0 ); > > -- >8 -- > > Alfie > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfiej at opera.com Wed Jul 11 16:35:21 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:35:21 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <4FFE0B4B.70306@dealmax.com.au> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4FFE0B4B.70306@dealmax.com.au> Message-ID: <1342049721.18041.140661100898981.51E8B5E6@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 09:24 AM, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > That is just plain nasty! > > Is that a Perl bug or is there a "rational" explanation? Rob tries to rationalise the bug in the Google+ comments ;) https://plus.google.com/100774584549524781502/posts/C18x5gFzG2t Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 20:10:37 2012 From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:10:37 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: It is a static variable. On 12 July 2012 09:00, Alfie John wrote: > #!/usr/bin/perl > > use strict; > use warnings; > > sub foo { > my ( $bar ) =@_; > > my $baz = $bar if $bar; > print "baz = $baz\n"; > > $baz = 42; > } > > foo( 1 ); > foo( 1 ); > foo( 0 ); > foo( 0 ); > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brendon.oliver at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 20:34:31 2012 From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:34:31 +0900 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Alfie John wrote: > Hi guys, > > Thanks to Rob Norris for reminding me to bring up my rant on Google+ > > What do people think about the following? > > -- 8< -- > > #!/usr/bin/perl > > use strict; > use warnings; > > sub foo { > my ( $bar ) =@_; > > my $baz = $bar if $bar; > print "baz = $baz\n"; > > $baz = 42; > } > > foo( 1 ); > foo( 1 ); > foo( 0 ); > foo( 0 ); > > -- >8 -- > FWIW, I asked about this several years ago & we had a discussion about it on this list. (grovels thru google....) http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/2007-October/002511.html nearly 5 years ago! wow. cheers, - b. From alfiej at opera.com Wed Jul 11 21:17:47 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:17:47 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1342066667.19834.140661100971617.0DEFC60F@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Brendon Oliver wrote: > FWIW, I asked about this several years ago & we had a discussion about > it on this list. > > (grovels thru google....) > > http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/2007-October/002511.html > > nearly 5 years ago! wow. Interesting going back on the previous discussion. Here's one of the links from the thread to the same issue on p5p: http://www.perl.com/pub/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if_0;_Trick Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Wed Jul 11 21:44:40 2012 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:44:40 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342066667.19834.140661100971617.0DEFC60F@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1342066667.19834.140661100971617.0DEFC60F@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <4FFE5638.5060808@strategicdata.com.au> On 12/07/12 14:17, Alfie John wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Brendon Oliver wrote: >> FWIW, I asked about this several years ago & we had a discussion about >> it on this list. >> >> (grovels thru google....) >> >> http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/2007-October/002511.html >> >> nearly 5 years ago! wow. > > Interesting going back on the previous discussion. Here's one of the > links from the thread to the same issue on p5p: > > http://www.perl.com/pub/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if_0;_Trick So it's a bug/feature that's been around for 12 years now. :/ From sam at nipl.net Wed Jul 11 23:14:16 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:14:16 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> Mathew Robertson wrote: > It is a static variable. +1 almost useful, maybe a secret feature! at least it doesn't (seem to) cause a SEGV Sam From rob at eatenbyagrue.org Thu Jul 12 00:18:40 2012 From: rob at eatenbyagrue.org (Robert Norris) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:18:40 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: It can be (ab)used like a static, but since 5.10 we have "state" so its getting hard to justify. On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Sam Watkins wrote: > Mathew Robertson wrote: >> It is a static variable. > > +1 almost useful, maybe a secret feature! > at least it doesn't (seem to) cause a SEGV > > Sam > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 00:47:37 2012 From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:47:37 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: -1... Even though I know it is a static, I would never use it that way... It strictly isn't documented as that, and causes my head to implode. On 12 July 2012 16:14, Sam Watkins wrote: > Mathew Robertson wrote: > > It is a static variable. > > +1 almost useful, maybe a secret feature! > at least it doesn't (seem to) cause a SEGV > > Sam > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benhare at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 03:50:20 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:20:20 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: This is a Perl bug IMO. You can see why this sort of thing can happen due to Perl's shorthand way of writing things eg: if ( $foo ) { my $bar = 1; # local scope variable to the conditional block } my $bar = 1 if $foo; # woops, no local scoping now You wouldn't be able to write the latter in other languages such as javascript. I actually thought ( without actually testing it ) that the latter would be an error but it seems not! Again tho, you can see why - Perl probably can't distinguish between the two cases. I think basically the answer is it would be bad practice to code in the latter way. Ben. PS: Hi Mat and Brendon! On 12 July 2012 17:17, Mathew Robertson wrote: > -1... > > Even though I know it is a static, I would never use it that way... It > strictly isn't documented as that, and causes my head to implode. > > > > On 12 July 2012 16:14, Sam Watkins wrote: >> >> Mathew Robertson wrote: >> > It is a static variable. >> >> +1 almost useful, maybe a secret feature! >> at least it doesn't (seem to) cause a SEGV >> >> Sam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From alfiej at opera.com Thu Jul 12 05:43:41 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:43:41 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 08:20 PM, Ben Hare wrote: > This is a Perl bug IMO. You can see why this sort of thing can happen > due to Perl's shorthand way of writing things eg: > > if ( $foo ) { > my $bar = 1; # local scope variable to the conditional block > } > > my $bar = 1 if $foo; # woops, no local scoping now > > You wouldn't be able to write the latter in other languages such as > javascript. I actually thought ( without actually testing it ) that > the latter would be an error but it seems not! Again tho, you can see > why - Perl probably can't distinguish between the two cases. I think > basically the answer is it would be bad practice to code in the latter > way. This isn't an issue of good vs bad practice. Bad practice is about not being clear, robust, efficient, maintainable or concise... but at least it still correct. My case may have been bad practice but it was also incorrect causing it to be unsafe - $bar was a user object in a mod_perl environment. Given that the code would have caused $bar to be stateful *across requests*, $bar could have been set as a *different user from somebody else's previous request*. If anyone has a local CPAN mirror, it would be interesting to see how many times this occurs... hopefully there won't be any exploitable cases in the wild! Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From benhare at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 05:50:04 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:20:04 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I didn't mean that your coding was bad practice. What I meant was, barring a solution, I think the answer for everyone in general is to simply not declare a my variable in that fashion. I think the ability to write code like: $a = $b if ( $true ) is really nice, but ultimately it may have to go to get rid of issues like the one you raised. In other words, I don't think your code is wrong, I think it should cause an exception to be thrown ( but for the reasons I explained before ie; Perl probably can't tell the difference, this is probably hard to do ). Ben. On 12 July 2012 22:13, Alfie John wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 08:20 PM, Ben Hare wrote: >> This is a Perl bug IMO. You can see why this sort of thing can happen >> due to Perl's shorthand way of writing things eg: >> >> if ( $foo ) { >> my $bar = 1; # local scope variable to the conditional block >> } >> >> my $bar = 1 if $foo; # woops, no local scoping now >> >> You wouldn't be able to write the latter in other languages such as >> javascript. I actually thought ( without actually testing it ) that >> the latter would be an error but it seems not! Again tho, you can see >> why - Perl probably can't distinguish between the two cases. I think >> basically the answer is it would be bad practice to code in the latter >> way. > > This isn't an issue of good vs bad practice. Bad practice is about not > being clear, robust, efficient, maintainable or concise... but at least > it still correct. My case may have been bad practice but it was also > incorrect causing it to be unsafe - $bar was a user object in a mod_perl > environment. Given that the code would have caused $bar to be stateful > *across requests*, $bar could have been set as a *different user from > somebody else's previous request*. > > If anyone has a local CPAN mirror, it would be interesting to see how > many times this occurs... hopefully there won't be any exploitable cases > in the wild! > > Alfie > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From benhare at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 05:53:24 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:23:24 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: so you should be forced to declare a variable first like: my $foo; $foo = $bar if ( $something ); On 12 July 2012 22:20, Ben Hare wrote: > Sorry, I didn't mean that your coding was bad practice. What I meant > was, barring a solution, I think the answer for everyone in general is > to simply not declare a my variable in that fashion. I think the > ability to write code like: > > $a = $b if ( $true ) > > is really nice, but ultimately it may have to go to get rid of issues > like the one you raised. In other words, I don't think your code is > wrong, I think it should cause an exception to be thrown ( but for the > reasons I explained before ie; Perl probably can't tell the > difference, this is probably hard to do ). > > Ben. > > > On 12 July 2012 22:13, Alfie John wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 08:20 PM, Ben Hare wrote: >>> This is a Perl bug IMO. You can see why this sort of thing can happen >>> due to Perl's shorthand way of writing things eg: >>> >>> if ( $foo ) { >>> my $bar = 1; # local scope variable to the conditional block >>> } >>> >>> my $bar = 1 if $foo; # woops, no local scoping now >>> >>> You wouldn't be able to write the latter in other languages such as >>> javascript. I actually thought ( without actually testing it ) that >>> the latter would be an error but it seems not! Again tho, you can see >>> why - Perl probably can't distinguish between the two cases. I think >>> basically the answer is it would be bad practice to code in the latter >>> way. >> >> This isn't an issue of good vs bad practice. Bad practice is about not >> being clear, robust, efficient, maintainable or concise... but at least >> it still correct. My case may have been bad practice but it was also >> incorrect causing it to be unsafe - $bar was a user object in a mod_perl >> environment. Given that the code would have caused $bar to be stateful >> *across requests*, $bar could have been set as a *different user from >> somebody else's previous request*. >> >> If anyone has a local CPAN mirror, it would be interesting to see how >> many times this occurs... hopefully there won't be any exploitable cases >> in the wild! >> >> Alfie >> >> -- >> Alfie John >> alfiej at opera.com > > > > -- > Ben Hare > Professional Web Development Services > ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 > Phone: +61-415-607-197 > Web: http://www.benhare.com > Email: ben at benhare.com -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From alfiej at opera.com Thu Jul 12 06:15:26 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:15:26 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1342098926.558.140661101124405.319D0CEC@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012, at 10:20 PM, Ben Hare wrote: > Sorry, I didn't mean that your coding was bad practice. What I meant > was, barring a solution, I think the answer for everyone in general is > to simply not declare a my variable in that fashion. I think the > ability to write code like: > > $a = $b if ( $true ) > > is really nice, but ultimately it may have to go to get rid of issues > like the one you raised. In other words, I don't think your code is > wrong, I think it should cause an exception to be thrown ( but for the > reasons I explained before ie; Perl probably can't tell the > difference, this is probably hard to do ). I think we're all in agreement here. Seeing as no compile time warnings are raised (unless Perl::Critic is used), and the issue won't be fixed anytime soon, we all need to keep this in the back of our minds. See you all in another 5 years when somebody else raises it :) Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From damian at conway.org Thu Jul 12 09:47:58 2012 From: damian at conway.org (Damian Conway) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:47:58 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Hi all. The behaviour of a "my...if 0 construct is officially an accident of implementation. And is at least partially documented as such in the "perlsyn" manpage (under "Statement Modifiers"): NOTE: The behaviour of a "my" statement modified with a statement modifier conditional or loop construct (e.g. "my $x if ...") is **undefined**. The value of the "my" variable may be "undef", any previously assigned value, or possibly anything else. Don't rely on it. Future versions of perl might do something different from the version of perl you try it out on. Here be dragons. Because the construct happens to be implemented in a way that circumvents the variable's normal garbage collection at the end of its scope, this technique was widely used in the Bad Old Days to simulate persistent/static variables: sub next_ID { my $ID if 0; $ID ||= 'AAA00001'; return ++$ID; } However, as "perlsyn" mentions, this relies on undefined side-effect of the implementation and is not guaranteed to keep working in future versions of Perl. Indeed, in Perl 5.10 and later, if you 'use warnings', you get a compile-time warning about the construct. Nowadays, there are two safe and reliable ways to achieve the same effect. Either by promoting the variable to an outer scope and making the sub a "closure" over it: my $ID = 'AAA00001'; sub next_ID { return $ID++; } This works--in any version of Perl 5--because the named subroutine is referring to the variable, which means the variable's reference-count is non-zero at the end of its usual scope, so the variable isn't "recycled" at that point and continues to exist as long as the named subroutine does. Alternatively, in 5.10 and later, you can actually declare the variable as being static within the subroutine, by using 'state' instead of 'my': sub next_ID { state $ID = 'AAA00001'; return $ID++; } Either of those is much safer and more future-proof than "my...if 0". Damian From alfiej at opera.com Thu Jul 12 14:51:41 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:51:41 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1342129901.31853.140661101325649.3B2A0CC5@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012, at 02:47 AM, Damian Conway wrote: > The behaviour of a "my...if 0 construct is officially an accident of > implementation. And is at least partially documented as such in the > "perlsyn" manpage (under "Statement Modifiers"): > > NOTE: The behaviour of a "my" statement modified with a statement > modifier conditional or loop construct (e.g. "my $x if ...") is > **undefined**. The value of the "my" variable may be "undef", any > previously assigned value, or possibly anything else. Don't rely > on > it. Future versions of perl might do something different from the > version of perl you try it out on. Here be dragons. Ahh. I've never seen any reference to that before. Thanks for pointing it out. > However, as "perlsyn" mentions, this relies on undefined side-effect of > the implementation and is not guaranteed to keep working in future > versions of Perl. Indeed, in Perl 5.10 and later, if you 'use warnings', > you get a compile-time warning about the construct. Maybe it's in a later version? I'm under 5.10.1 and it's not giving me warnings. Dragons begone! Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From sam at nipl.net Thu Jul 12 16:20:34 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:20:34 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20120712232034.GL26747@opal.nipl.net> If this was Stack Overflow, Damian earned the 'tick' for this one. Some few people know what they're talking about... the rest of us should shut up and listen! /me shutting up now From rob at eatenbyagrue.org Thu Jul 12 16:26:44 2012 From: rob at eatenbyagrue.org (Robert Norris) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:26:44 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Seems a bit hit-and-miss (actually mostly miss): robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if 0' Deprecated use of my() in false conditional at -e line 1. robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if 1' robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if undef' robn at pyro:~$ foo=0 perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if $ENV{foo}' robn at pyro:~$ foo=1 perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if $ENV{foo}' robn at pyro:~$ perl -v This is perl 5, version 16, subversion 0 (v5.16.0) built for x86_64-linux Its great that its sort-of documented in perlsyn, but other parts of the document are vaguely misleading, eg perlsub: The parameter list to my() may be assigned to if desired, which allows you to initialize your variables. (If no initializer is given for a particula variable, it is created with the undefined value.) Or "state" in perlfunc: "state" declares a lexically scoped variable, just like "my". However, those variables will never be reinitialized, contrary to lexical variables that are reinitialized each time their enclosing block is entered. So while we can argue about whether or not its a bug (which seems more about how you define "bug") it does seem that the docs and warnings aren't consistent, and it certainly doesn't give the behaviour you'd expect. If its been used in the past as a way to do statics then its unlikely that it will ever change (backward compatibility) but better docs and warnings could help a lot. But docs and warnings aside, there's the general expectation. Everybody "knows" that my $x gets you $x == undef. Its one of the first things you learn in Perl kindergarten. True, Perl has plenty of quirks but for the most part they're internally consistent and easy to avoid until you actual need them. This touches something pretty fundamental and when it breaks it does so silently and can have serious consequences (like mod_perl state leaks). If I get around to it I'll open a bug report, even if its just asking for better warnings. I doubt I'll have time to work up a patch myself. From sam at nipl.net Thu Jul 12 17:04:38 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:04:38 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Robert Norris wrote: > Seems a bit hit-and-miss (actually mostly miss): > > robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if 0' > Deprecated use of my() in false conditional at -e line 1. > robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if 1' > robn at pyro:~$ perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if undef' > robn at pyro:~$ foo=0 perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if $ENV{foo}' > robn at pyro:~$ foo=1 perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -E 'my $x if $ENV{foo}' > robn at pyro:~$ perl -v looks like targetting the specific idiom: my $foo ... if 0 should warn about any my $foo ... if ... > So while we can argue about whether or not its a bug unintended dis-recommended 'features' are bugs, categorically > If I get around to it I'll open a bug report, even if its just asking > for better warnings. I doubt I'll have time to work up a patch myself. If can detect the pattern with 'use warnings', I guess not too hard to make it a syntax error in the core. Maybe don't want to break existing abuse of it, so leave it in use warnings / use strict. Sam From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 20:40:25 2012 From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:40:25 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: > > > looks like targetting the specific idiom: > my $foo ... if 0 > > should warn about any > my $foo ... if ... > > > So while we can argue about whether or not its a bug > > unintended dis-recommended 'features' are bugs, categorically > > > If I get around to it I'll open a bug report, even if its just asking > > for better warnings. I doubt I'll have time to work up a patch myself. > > If can detect the pattern with 'use warnings', I guess not too hard > to make it a syntax error in the core. Maybe don't want to break > existing abuse of it, so leave it in use warnings / use strict. > > Given that recent releases are specifically deprecating some functionality, I dont see why this shouldn't be upgraded from warning, to error. ie: any syntax of my .... if ... local .... if ... our ... if ... and dont forget 'unless'. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at nipl.net Thu Jul 12 22:38:52 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:38:52 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: <20120713053852.GC25675@opal.nipl.net> Mathew Robertson wrote: > and dont forget 'unless'. I daresay postfix for(each), while, until, may also be troublesome. Any others? sub foo { my $foo = "elephant" while rand() < 0.5; $foo .= " poop"; print "$foo\n"; } foo for 1..10; => poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop poop From david.warring at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 23:46:34 2012 From: david.warring at gmail.com (David Warring) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:46:34 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Rather than losing a whole raft of language constructs, I'd prefer to be able to tell Perl to behave sanely. Maybe the behaviour could be controlled and modified as a feature ? use feature 'no_implied_static'; # just for example my $foo if 0; # now behaves sanely without warnings. - David On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Mathew Robertson < mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> looks like targetting the specific idiom: >> my $foo ... if 0 >> >> should warn about any >> my $foo ... if ... >> >> > So while we can argue about whether or not its a bug >> >> unintended dis-recommended 'features' are bugs, categorically >> >> > If I get around to it I'll open a bug report, even if its just asking >> > for better warnings. I doubt I'll have time to work up a patch myself. >> >> If can detect the pattern with 'use warnings', I guess not too hard >> to make it a syntax error in the core. Maybe don't want to break >> existing abuse of it, so leave it in use warnings / use strict. >> >> > Given that recent releases are specifically deprecating some > functionality, I dont see why this shouldn't be upgraded from warning, to > error. ie: any syntax of > > my .... if ... > local .... if ... > our ... if ... > > and dont forget 'unless'. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slundie at westpac.com.au Fri Jul 13 05:06:48 2012 From: slundie at westpac.com.au (Sam Lundie) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:06:48 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Hi I'll on a course and will be back on 20th July Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 13/07/2012 and will not return until 23/07/2012. For anything urgent please see Josh Nast, for General Tokens and SMS Andrew Thomas Thanks, Sam Lundie Unless otherwise stated, this email is confidential. If received in error, please delete and inform the sender by return email. Unauthorised use, copying or distribution is prohibited. Westpac Banking Corporation (ABN 33 007 457 141) is not responsible for viruses, or for delays, errors or interception in transmission. Unless stated or apparent from its terms, any opinion is not the opinion of Westpac Banking Corporation. This message also includes information on Westpac Institutional Bank available at westpac.com.au/wibinfo From damian at conway.org Fri Jul 13 07:57:54 2012 From: damian at conway.org (Damian Conway) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 00:57:54 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> References: <1342047620.10045.140661100887897.5AD0FE21@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Sam suggested: > looks like targetting the specific idiom: > my $foo ... if 0 > > should warn about any > my $foo ... if ... I doubt it. Because: my $foo if 1; is perfectly legal and does exactly what you'd expect. It's only when the 'if' fails that Perl omits the run-time aspect of a 'my', leaving only the compile-time declaration...which leads to the static-like behaviour. In fact (and I can't believe I'm showing you this!), because of that conditional behaviour you can actually create a "selectably static" variable within a subroutine, like so: use warnings; my $static_bar = 1; sub foo { my $bar = 666 if !$static_bar; $bar++; say "bar = $bar"; } foo; foo; foo; # 1 2 3 $static_bar = 0; foo; foo; foo; # 667 667 667 $static_bar = 1; foo; foo; foo; # 1 2 3 As you can see, it's quite a difficult philosophical and moral problem to decide whether this is (a) genius, (b) demented, (c) evil, (d) all of the above. And until you can agree on that, how can you decide whether it warrants a warning? >;-) Damien From sam at nipl.net Sat Jul 14 02:11:20 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 19:11:20 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: References: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: <20120714091120.GD25675@opal.nipl.net> > my $foo if 1; > > is perfectly legal and does exactly what you'd expect. it's a perfectly useless extra clause > It's only when the 'if' fails that Perl omits the run-time > aspect of a 'my', leaving only the compile-time > declaration...which leads to the static-like behaviour. an if that never fails is perfectly useless. If it fails, we get bogus behaviour > you can actually create a "selectably static" variable I figured. > As you can see, it's quite a difficult philosophical and moral problem > to decide whether this is (a) genius, (b) demented, (c) evil, (d) all of > the above. And until you can agree on that, how can you decide whether > it warrants a warning? > > >;-) This could only happen with perl. I guess you're joking. But I take perl bugs seriously. Our business (Armaguard) relies heavily on perl, and it has proved very reliable. But this kind of nonsense bug should not go unfixed for the best part of a decade. Can you imagine such a scenario with python or ruby? No way. If you illuminated perl hackers can't be bothered to fix it, I will brave the jungle of perl internals and have a go (sacrificing my blissful ignorance of said jungle for the greater good). Sam (do you have any more old OS X macs going cheap? :) From damian at conway.org Sat Jul 14 06:14:45 2012 From: damian at conway.org (Damian Conway) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 06:14:45 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postfix conditionals and creating lexicals In-Reply-To: <20120714091120.GD25675@opal.nipl.net> References: <20120712061416.GJ26747@opal.nipl.net> <1342097021.28200.140661101090465.7CE5FFF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120713000438.GM26747@opal.nipl.net> <20120714091120.GD25675@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Sam Watkins wrote: >> is perfectly legal and does exactly what you'd expect. > > it's a perfectly useless extra clause Sure. But if we're now warning about utility then we're going to have to issue warnings for about 30% of everyone's code, in my experience. ;-) > an if that never fails is perfectly useless. Hmmmmm. I can think of at least one perfectly valid use for it. > If it fails, we get bogus behaviour Which is already warned about in the most common case. And which shouldn't be warned about in general because... >> you can actually create a "selectably static" variable > This could only happen with perl. Really? I know (and have often taught) a few dozen different languages and in my experience every one of them (including Python and Ruby) have unresolved design or implementation issues just as long-standing and just as egregious. > If you illuminated perl hackers can't be bothered to fix it, It isn't a case of "can't be bothered". It's a case of "it's already documented and just not very important compared with the hundreds of other serious bugs and implementation-suboptimalities in Perl, which we don't have the time or resources to fix either, what with all of us having real jobs, as well as the work we already do on Perl, for free, in our own time." > I will brave the jungle of perl internals and have a go (sacrificing > my blissful ignorance of said jungle for the greater good). Bravo! That's exactly the right spirit. > Sam (do you have any more old OS X macs going cheap? :) I'm afraid I'm down to old laptops now. If you have a worthwhile use for a 5300c, let me know and I'll see if it still boots. ;-) Damian From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 22:20:04 2012 From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:20:04 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour Message-ID: Hi list, I having been having some quirky behaviour when assigning $0... For me this turned out to be as a result from this: $0 = abs_path(dirname($0))."/".basename($0); ie: make the process name (as shown in top/ps, be the name of the script - instead of the perl binary. Which worked well when running "pidof whatever.pl", "ps auxww | grep whatever.pl", but not so much for "killall whatever.pl". Some Googling has turned up the problem/cause: http://blogs.perl.org/users/aevar_arnfjor_bjarmason/2010/03/what-happens-when-you-assign-to-0.html perl version is: v5.14.2 So I run the example shown -> which shows that the patch is applied. Upon further investigation, I think the implementation could be refined, ie: in my code above, only the first 16 characters of string are chomped, thus leaving the program title with part of the the basepath of the script. In my case I worked around it using Sys::Prtcl->prctl_name($BASENAME), The suggested change to this enhancement would be, if $0 points at a script, then change $0 assignment so that Perl grok's the rightmost part of the path. ie: leave $0 as-is, but modify this patch as so. Thoughts? Mathew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benhare at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 08:26:01 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:56:01 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mat and yes I'm still Perling..! :) I like what Catalyst is doing regarding this. Maybe have a look at that project if you haven't already. NOTE: Below examples all relate to FastCGI implementations of Catalyst. * Older versions made the script name show in top but not in ps ( ps would just show 'perl', top would show 'script.cgi' ). * The latest version does the reverse and will just show 'perl' in top but in ps: 'perl-fcgi-pm [Xtapes]' the [] indicating each app's name as defined in Catalyst config. I like this approach ( as long as the processes are running as different users, you know what it is in top anyway ). Some more ideas ( It's 00:55 and I'm too lazy to look at *how* they're doing it sorry - exercise for reader :) ). Ben. On 16 July 2012 14:50, Mathew Robertson wrote: > Hi list, > > I having been having some quirky behaviour when assigning $0... > For me this turned out to be as a result from this: > > $0 = abs_path(dirname($0))."/".basename($0); > > ie: make the process name (as shown in top/ps, be the name of the script - > instead of the perl binary. > Which worked well when running "pidof whatever.pl", "ps auxww | grep > whatever.pl", but not so much for "killall whatever.pl". > > Some Googling has turned up the problem/cause: > http://blogs.perl.org/users/aevar_arnfjor_bjarmason/2010/03/what-happens-when-you-assign-to-0.html > > perl version is: v5.14.2 > > > So I run the example shown -> which shows that the patch is applied. Upon > further investigation, I think the implementation could be refined, ie: in > my code above, only the first 16 characters of string are chomped, thus > leaving the program title with part of the the basepath of the script. In my > case I worked around it using Sys::Prtcl->prctl_name($BASENAME), > > > The suggested change to this enhancement would be, if $0 points at a script, > then change $0 assignment so that Perl grok's the rightmost part of the > path. ie: leave $0 as-is, but modify this patch as so. > > Thoughts? > Mathew > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 20:17:49 2012 From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:17:49 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the info Ben -> I browsed the Catalyst source via the cpan.org, but couldn't find any calls to $0... (I dont really want to install every Catalyst module.... just to grep the source...). I know some other software that uses it, eg: MySQLRelicationClient.pl So just as a follow up to this thread, here is the code that I execute (via loading the "Lib.pm" module) for every script that I write: package Lib; .... use Cwd qw( cwd abs_path chdir ); use File::Basename; use File::Spec; our $BASENAME; our $DIRNAME; our $BASEPATH; BEGIN { $BASENAME = basename($0); $BASEPATH = abs_path(dirname($0)) || ""; $DIRNAME = $0 =~ /^\// ? dirname($0) : $ENV{PWD}."/".$0; $DIRNAME =~ s/\/?\w+\/\.\.\//\//g; } use lib $BASEPATH; $0 = "$BASEPATH/$BASENAME".(@ARGV == 0 ? "" : " ".join(" ", at ARGV)); use Sys::Prctl; Sys::Prctl::prctl_name($BASENAME); ... 1; Ignoring the globals, this sets $0 to something useful for top/ps/pidof/killall. regards, Mathew On 18 July 2012 01:26, Ben Hare wrote: > Hey Mat and yes I'm still Perling..! :) > > I like what Catalyst is doing regarding this. Maybe have a look at > that project if you haven't already. > > NOTE: Below examples all relate to FastCGI implementations of Catalyst. > > * Older versions made the script name show in top but not in ps ( ps > would just show 'perl', top would show 'script.cgi' ). > * The latest version does the reverse and will just show 'perl' in top > but in ps: > > 'perl-fcgi-pm [Xtapes]' > > the [] indicating each app's name as defined in Catalyst config. > > I like this approach ( as long as the processes are running as > different users, you know what it is in top anyway ). > > Some more ideas ( It's 00:55 and I'm too lazy to look at *how* they're > doing it sorry - exercise for reader :) ). > > Ben. > > > On 16 July 2012 14:50, Mathew Robertson > wrote: > > Hi list, > > > > I having been having some quirky behaviour when assigning $0... > > For me this turned out to be as a result from this: > > > > $0 = abs_path(dirname($0))."/".basename($0); > > > > ie: make the process name (as shown in top/ps, be the name of the script > - > > instead of the perl binary. > > Which worked well when running "pidof whatever.pl", "ps auxww | grep > > whatever.pl", but not so much for "killall whatever.pl". > > > > Some Googling has turned up the problem/cause: > > > http://blogs.perl.org/users/aevar_arnfjor_bjarmason/2010/03/what-happens-when-you-assign-to-0.html > > > > perl version is: v5.14.2 > > > > > > So I run the example shown -> which shows that the patch is applied. > Upon > > further investigation, I think the implementation could be refined, ie: > in > > my code above, only the first 16 characters of string are chomped, thus > > leaving the program title with part of the the basepath of the script. > In my > > case I worked around it using Sys::Prtcl->prctl_name($BASENAME), > > > > > > The suggested change to this enhancement would be, if $0 points at a > script, > > then change $0 assignment so that Perl grok's the rightmost part of the > > path. ie: leave $0 as-is, but modify this patch as so. > > > > Thoughts? > > Mathew > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > > -- > Ben Hare > Professional Web Development Services > ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 > Phone: +61-415-607-197 > Web: http://www.benhare.com > Email: ben at benhare.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfiej at opera.com Fri Jul 20 03:00:46 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:00:46 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1342778446.20334.140661104428105.209A9C19@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hey Matthew, On Fri, Jul 20, 2012, at 01:17 PM, Mathew Robertson wrote: > Ignoring the globals, this sets $0 to something useful for > top/ps/pidof/killall. I know it's not what you're asking, but have you thought about just setting +x and running all scripts directly? # perl /tmp/test.pl # killall test.pl test.pl: no process found # /tmp/test.pl # killall test.pl Terminated That way (unless you've abstracted all of the above), you don't need to much boilerplate? And if you're running scripts using their full pathnames, it could all simplify down to: $0 = __FILE__; Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From benhare at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 03:54:30 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:24:30 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour In-Reply-To: <1342778446.20334.140661104428105.209A9C19@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1342778446.20334.140661104428105.209A9C19@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 20 July 2012 19:30, Alfie John wrote: > Hey Matthew, > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012, at 01:17 PM, Mathew Robertson wrote: >> Ignoring the globals, this sets $0 to something useful for >> top/ps/pidof/killall. > > I know it's not what you're asking, but have you thought about just > setting +x and running all scripts directly? > > # perl /tmp/test.pl > # killall test.pl > test.pl: no process found > > # /tmp/test.pl > # killall test.pl > Terminated > > That way (unless you've abstracted all of the above), you don't need to > much boilerplate? Yes I was thinking same thing. In devel stage, I tend to write a shell script to stop / start if it's something I'm doing over and over and in production I would usually have an init.d script to stop|start|restart etc. In both cases the script name is going to show up in top because it's being run directly. I do run code via perl ( eg; perl -Ilib [ -wc ] script ) all day but when I think about it that is usually to test compilation or to run a test. Maybe you don't really need all this Mat? :D PS: I'm sure you do for some reason as I know you would already know all of the above - just another 2 cents :) Ben. > > And if you're running scripts using their full pathnames, it could all > simplify down to: > > $0 = __FILE__; > > Alfie > > -- > Alfie John > alfiej at opera.com > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From benhare at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 04:09:40 2012 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:39:40 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] $0 behaviour In-Reply-To: References: <1342778446.20334.140661104428105.209A9C19@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: BTW Mathew, your code has reminded me of a few modules I can use instead of FindBin. I'm a huge FindBin fan but recently was caught out when writing a script to be executed by the mail server ( ie; under the mail server's shell ). I remember being warned about this by someone once but I'd forgotten :) It was rush rush at the time so I hardcoded the script ( which I can't stand and never usually do ) but now of course that is catching me out ie; releasing to production with hardcoded dev paths! I need to rewrite with Cwd / File::*. Cheers! Ben. On 20 July 2012 20:24, Ben Hare wrote: > On 20 July 2012 19:30, Alfie John wrote: >> Hey Matthew, >> >> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012, at 01:17 PM, Mathew Robertson wrote: >>> Ignoring the globals, this sets $0 to something useful for >>> top/ps/pidof/killall. >> >> I know it's not what you're asking, but have you thought about just >> setting +x and running all scripts directly? >> >> # perl /tmp/test.pl >> # killall test.pl >> test.pl: no process found >> >> # /tmp/test.pl >> # killall test.pl >> Terminated >> >> That way (unless you've abstracted all of the above), you don't need to >> much boilerplate? > > Yes I was thinking same thing. In devel stage, I tend to write a shell > script to stop / start if it's something I'm doing over and over and > in production I would usually have an init.d script to > stop|start|restart etc. In both cases the script name is going to show > up in top because it's being run directly. I do run code via perl ( > eg; perl -Ilib [ -wc ] script ) all day but when I think about it that > is usually to test compilation or to run a test. Maybe you don't > really need all this Mat? :D > > PS: I'm sure you do for some reason as I know you would already know > all of the above - just another 2 cents :) > > Ben. > >> >> And if you're running scripts using their full pathnames, it could all >> simplify down to: >> >> $0 = __FILE__; >> >> Alfie >> >> -- >> Alfie John >> alfiej at opera.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > > -- > Ben Hare > Professional Web Development Services > ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 > Phone: +61-415-607-197 > Web: http://www.benhare.com > Email: ben at benhare.com -- Ben Hare Professional Web Development Services ABN: 22-48-55-71-887 Phone: +61-415-607-197 Web: http://www.benhare.com Email: ben at benhare.com From alfiej at opera.com Tue Jul 24 18:40:12 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:40:12 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Meeting - Wednesday the 8th of August 2012 Message-ID: <1343180412.15004.140661106264449.26D477DF@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hello Perl Mongers, The next Melbourne Perl Mongers meeting will be on Wednesday the 8th of August, 2012 and will start around 6:30pm: Opera Software Level 1, 91-97 William Street Melbourne CBD Sam Watkins will be giving a talk on his flow-based programming system 'net2sh'. If anyone else would like to present, feel free to email the list. Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From andrew_dent at dentaur.com Wed Jul 25 18:15:57 2012 From: andrew_dent at dentaur.com (Andrew Dent) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:15:57 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Looking for software developer Message-ID: <008a01cd6acc$36901fa0$a3b05ee0$@dentaur.com> Hi We have a customer who is looking for some custom software or website to be written for displaying in real time, foreign exchange trading data. He is an established trader and none of the tools he has seen thus far, display the data in the way he would like to see it. He is located in Chirnside Park, Victoria. If someone is available for creating such a tool/website (and already has experience with writing software relating to foreign exchange trades that would be ideal), please contact me off list so I can refer you on. Best regards Andrew Dent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew_dent at dentaur.com Thu Jul 26 01:12:51 2012 From: andrew_dent at dentaur.com (Andrew Dent) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:12:51 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Looking for software developer In-Reply-To: <008a01cd6acc$36901fa0$a3b05ee0$@dentaur.com> References: <008a01cd6acc$36901fa0$a3b05ee0$@dentaur.com> Message-ID: <01e201cd6b06$73cb46d0$5b61d470$@dentaur.com> Hi We have found an owner for opportunity. Thanks for those that replied. Cheers Andrew From: Melbourne-pm [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+andrew_dent=dentaur.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Dent Sent: Thursday, 26 July 2012 11:16 AM To: 'Melbourne Perlmongers' Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Looking for software developer Hi We have a customer who is looking for some custom software or website to be written for displaying in real time, foreign exchange trading data. He is an established trader and none of the tools he has seen thus far, display the data in the way he would like to see it. He is located in Chirnside Park, Victoria. If someone is available for creating such a tool/website (and already has experience with writing software relating to foreign exchange trades that would be ideal), please contact me off list so I can refer you on. Best regards Andrew Dent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfiej at opera.com Tue Jul 31 20:36:27 2012 From: alfiej at opera.com (Alfie John) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:36:27 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Reminder: Meeting - Wednesday the 8th of August 2012 Message-ID: <1343792187.25245.140661109174073.7FB552BE@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hello Perl Mongers, Just a friendly reminder that Melbourne Perl Mongers is next week on Wednesday the 8th of August, 2012 and will start around 6:30pm: Opera Software Level 1, 91-97 William Street Melbourne CBD Sam Watkins will be giving a talk on his flow-based programming system 'net2sh'. If anyone else would like to present, feel free to email the list. Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej at opera.com From sam at nipl.net Tue Jul 31 21:53:31 2012 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 14:53:31 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Reminder: Meeting - Wednesday the 8th of August 2012 In-Reply-To: <1343792187.25245.140661109174073.7FB552BE@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1343792187.25245.140661109174073.7FB552BE@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20120801045331.GB2813@opal.nipl.net> > flow-based programming system 'net2sh'. I might vary that talk a bit. I was experimenting with packages that use squashfs, mount themselves and act like an executable for Open Pandora. It also works on any Linux box, so might be of interest. It doesn't use perl (yet), I'll make some sort of perlish package demo. > If anyone else would like to present, feel free to email the list. Yeah please, I don't want to be the lone presenter. Even worse, if no one comes! Sam From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Jul 31 21:56:51 2012 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:56:51 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August Message-ID: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> G'day folk, My apologies if this is the first you've heard of this, but I only just discovered that the OSDC CFP is open a few minutes ago and thought I should spread the word. Especially since it closes in a week on the 8th August. Not much, but more, information at: http://www.osdc.com.au/call-for-papers All the best, Jacinta From ickphum at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 21:57:24 2012 From: ickphum at gmail.com (Ian Macdonald) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 14:57:24 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Reminder: Meeting - Wednesday the 8th of August 2012 In-Reply-To: <20120801045331.GB2813@opal.nipl.net> References: <1343792187.25245.140661109174073.7FB552BE@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20120801045331.GB2813@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Don't worry Sam, management will be there even if no-one else is. Of course, if no-one else is there, that may be reflected in your next review. Even worse, if no one comes! > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -- Ian Macdonald -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:01:07 2012 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:01:07 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> On 01/08/12 14:56, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > G'day folk, > > My apologies if this is the first you've heard of this, but I only just > discovered that the OSDC CFP is open a few minutes ago and thought I > should spread the word. Especially since it closes in a week on the 8th > August. Oh, that is rather disappointing -- apparently the CFP has been running since June, but no info arrived in the Perl community. I know people say "Perl is dead!" all the time, but I didn't think OSDC had given up on us! :/ -Toby From scottp at dd.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:07:25 2012 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:07:25 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> Probably just coincidence. Normally Jacinta, me, Paul, others at MPM are involved with OSDC organisation. This year we have been mostly hands off, and I am working too many hours a day. So really sorry it is late. I might also feedback to the organisers that this was missed, because I then think, who else was missed :-) Scott On 01/08/2012, at 3:01 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote: > On 01/08/12 14:56, Jacinta Richardson wrote: >> G'day folk, >> >> My apologies if this is the first you've heard of this, but I only just >> discovered that the OSDC CFP is open a few minutes ago and thought I >> should spread the word. Especially since it closes in a week on the 8th >> August. > > Oh, that is rather disappointing -- apparently the CFP has been running since June, but no info arrived in the Perl community. > > I know people say "Perl is dead!" all the time, but I didn't think OSDC had given up on us! :/ > > > > -Toby > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:10:44 2012 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:10:44 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <5018BA54.7000309@strategicdata.com.au> Just a suggestion -- but might the previous year's attendees email list be useful for this kind of thing? ie. Mail all of them, just once, with the info about the next conference? On 01/08/12 15:07, Scott Penrose wrote: > Probably just coincidence. Normally Jacinta, me, Paul, others at MPM are involved with OSDC organisation. This year we have been mostly hands off, and I am working too many hours a day. > > So really sorry it is late. > > I might also feedback to the organisers that this was missed, because I then think, who else was missed :-) > > Scott > > On 01/08/2012, at 3:01 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote: > >> On 01/08/12 14:56, Jacinta Richardson wrote: >>> G'day folk, >>> >>> My apologies if this is the first you've heard of this, but I only just >>> discovered that the OSDC CFP is open a few minutes ago and thought I >>> should spread the word. Especially since it closes in a week on the 8th >>> August. >> >> Oh, that is rather disappointing -- apparently the CFP has been running since June, but no info arrived in the Perl community. >> >> I know people say "Perl is dead!" all the time, but I didn't think OSDC had given up on us! :/ >> >> >> >> -Toby >> _______________________________________________ >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -- .signature From scottp at dd.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:12:37 2012 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:12:37 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <5018BA54.7000309@strategicdata.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> <5018BA54.7000309@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: <9B95D0BA-3FDE-40A0-85FC-47514D89C697@dd.com.au> Funny you should mention that :-) We have just been repairing the broken server that ran the list. I will suggest that once they mail out, they should extend deadline till end of Aug. Scott On 01/08/2012, at 3:10 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote: > Just a suggestion -- but might the previous year's attendees email list be useful for this kind of thing? ie. Mail all of them, just once, with the info about the next conference? > > On 01/08/12 15:07, Scott Penrose wrote: >> Probably just coincidence. Normally Jacinta, me, Paul, others at MPM are involved with OSDC organisation. This year we have been mostly hands off, and I am working too many hours a day. >> >> So really sorry it is late. >> >> I might also feedback to the organisers that this was missed, because I then think, who else was missed :-) >> >> Scott >> >> On 01/08/2012, at 3:01 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote: >> >>> On 01/08/12 14:56, Jacinta Richardson wrote: >>>> G'day folk, >>>> >>>> My apologies if this is the first you've heard of this, but I only just >>>> discovered that the OSDC CFP is open a few minutes ago and thought I >>>> should spread the word. Especially since it closes in a week on the 8th >>>> August. >>> >>> Oh, that is rather disappointing -- apparently the CFP has been running since June, but no info arrived in the Perl community. >>> >>> I know people say "Perl is dead!" all the time, but I didn't think OSDC had given up on us! :/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -Toby >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Melbourne-pm mailing list >>> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >> > > > -- > .signature From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:18:30 2012 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:18:30 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <5018BC26.1070905@perltraining.com.au> On 01/08/12 15:07, Scott Penrose wrote: > Probably just coincidence. Normally Jacinta, me, Paul, others at MPM are involved with OSDC organisation. This year we have been mostly hands off, and I am working too many hours a day. I volunteered to be part of the team, but did not chase that up. If they didn't want me then that's their loss. > I might also feedback to the organisers that this was missed, because I then think, who else was missed :-) I am subscribed to almost every LUG in Australia, to all the PM groups in Australia and New Zealand, and to several business related groups as well. The *only* place I saw the CFP, upon searching for it today, was where Arjen had forwarded it to H-GEN. I have no idea where else it was successfully sent to, but I've been rectifying this by sending it to all the PM groups, SLUG, LUV, MLUG, CLUG and I'll continue to send it on to the others as I work my way through the list. J From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:19:27 2012 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:19:27 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <9B95D0BA-3FDE-40A0-85FC-47514D89C697@dd.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> <5018BA54.7000309@strategicdata.com.au> <9B95D0BA-3FDE-40A0-85FC-47514D89C697@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <5018BC5F.2050502@perltraining.com.au> On 01/08/12 15:12, Scott Penrose wrote: > Funny you should mention that :-) We have just been repairing the broken server that ran the list. I will suggest that once they mail out, they should extend deadline till end of Aug. Ah yes, and I've attempted to mail announce and clubannounce. Which seems to have gone okay from my side, but I haven't got the message back myself. J From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Tue Jul 31 22:30:53 2012 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:30:53 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes 8th August In-Reply-To: <5018BC26.1070905@perltraining.com.au> References: <5018B713.90804@perltraining.com.au> <5018B813.6040002@strategicdata.com.au> <1DF7F86C-C8E0-4CC9-A2D2-37CB56A83BEA@dd.com.au> <5018BC26.1070905@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <5018BF0D.5060606@strategicdata.com.au> On 01/08/12 15:18, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > On 01/08/12 15:07, Scott Penrose wrote: >> Probably just coincidence. Normally Jacinta, me, Paul, others at MPM >> are involved with OSDC organisation. This year we have been mostly >> hands off, and I am working too many hours a day. > > I volunteered to be part of the team, but did not chase that up. If > they didn't want me then that's their loss. > >> I might also feedback to the organisers that this was missed, because >> I then think, who else was missed :-) > > I am subscribed to almost every LUG in Australia, to all the PM groups > in Australia and New Zealand, and to several business related groups as > well. The *only* place I saw the CFP, upon searching for it today, was > where Arjen had forwarded it to H-GEN. I have no idea where else it was > successfully sent to, but I've been rectifying this by sending it to all > the PM groups, SLUG, LUV, MLUG, CLUG and I'll continue to send it on to > the others as I work my way through the list. I haven't seen anything on any of the various non-perl open-source development mailing lists which I am subscribed to, either. I did a quick Google for mailing list announcements and didn't turn up anything there either, apart from the OSDC site itself and one post on twitter. [1] Given the way that most mailing lists get archived and indexed by Google, that seems pretty weird! Seriously! Search string used: osdc 2012 call for papers -netways -osdc.my -osdc.tw