From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Feb  1 04:27:41 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:27:41 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [Fwd: Request for speakers for Melbourne Developers
	Conference]
Message-ID: <45C1DCBD.4060409@perltraining.com.au>

I thought some of you may be interested in this.

	J

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Request for speakers for Melbourne Developers Conference
Date: 	Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:43:29 +1100
From: 	Daryl Moulder <dsmou1 at aim.com>
To: 	luv-main at luv.asn.au



Hi all,

I am looking to prepare a list of speakers for the 2007 TAM conference
on the 3rd and 4th of March 2007.
The theme of the conference is about development tools and practices
that are useful across a wide variety
of different software platforms.  These can be summarised as the
following areas:

1) Architecture and Design issuers
2) Test driven development i.e. the use of NUnit, PHPUnit, JUnit etc
3) Agile Development Methodologies, Scrum, Extreme Programming etc
4) Code repository management tools such as CVS, Subversion, monotone,
Microsoft Teamserver etc.

Submissions are due February 17th 2007.  Apologies for the short notice.

Web page is at:

http://www.tam2007.au.tt


Daryl Moulder


-- When everything is not as square as it may seem.



From krobert at realestate.com.au  Thu Feb  1 15:28:44 2007
From: krobert at realestate.com.au (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:28:44 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [Fwd: Request for speakers for Melbourne
	DevelopersConference]
In-Reply-To: <45C1DCBD.4060409@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05593D2A@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>

This looks interesting, but the webpage is extraordinarily sparse and
the timeline seems really short.  Does anyone know anything further
about this conference, such as who's involved (other than Daryl), or
anything else of that sort?

K.


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Feb  1 16:03:50 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:03:50 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [Fwd: Request for speakers for
	Melbourne	DevelopersConference]
In-Reply-To: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05593D2A@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>
References: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05593D2A@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>
Message-ID: <45C27FE6.8010801@perltraining.com.au>


Kirrily Robert wrote:
> This looks interesting, but the webpage is extraordinarily sparse and
> the timeline seems really short.  Does anyone know anything further
> about this conference, such as who's involved (other than Daryl), or
> anything else of that sort?

I'm trying to get more information, I'll post back what I find.

	J


-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From blm at woodheap.org  Mon Feb  5 16:07:08 2007
From: blm at woodheap.org (blm at woodheap.org)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:07:08 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Meeting 14th February 2007 [Talks wanted]
Message-ID: <20070206000707.GB24686@woodheap.org>


G'day everyone,                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    
You and all of your friends, family and other interested people are invited to                                      
our meeting next week.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                    
        Date:           Wednesday 14th February 2007
        Time:           6:30pm                                                                                      
        Location:       Editure
			(Usual place)                                                                               
                        Level 8, 14 Blackwood Street, North Melbourne                                               
                                                                                                                    
Talks are currently being sought.  If you have a talk that you would like                                         
to give please do not hesitate to email me.  

Regards,

Ben Marsh
Treasurer
Melbourne Perl Mongers

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Feb  6 17:46:00 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 12:46:00 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Call for lightning talks for 14th Feb 2007
Message-ID: <45C92F58.7010304@perltraining.com.au>

G'day everyone,

At our meeting next week we're running a bunch of lightning talks.  These are 5
minute long talks.  Currently we have talks from:

	Alfie John
	Simon Taylor - AI::Genetic -  A pure Perl genetic algorithm
		       implementa?tion

I'm sure Paul Fenwick will be up for one, and I might put one together myself.
However even with these, that's only 20 minutes of content.  How about you get
up and join us.  This is a great chance for first-time speakers to get an
opportunity to have a go speaking, and remember no matter how many mistakes you
make, it's over in 5 minutes.  :)

For those who need suggestions, visit the Wellington Perl Monger's CPAN Roulette
page:

	http://wellington.pm.org/bin/cpan_roulette.cgi

take the module it suggests and tell us a bit about it.  You might include:

	* what it does
	* basic synopsis
	* possible uses
	* its cpants/kwalitee/cpan ratings
	* who wrote it
	* similar modules

You can do this even if you never knew the module existed before and thus have
never used it!  Help us give a whirlwind tour of CPAN!

	J
	

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From rick at measham.id.au  Tue Feb  6 19:32:26 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:32:26 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Call for lightning talks for 14th Feb 2007
In-Reply-To: <45C92F58.7010304@perltraining.com.au>
References: <45C92F58.7010304@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <45C9484A.6000105@measham.id.au>

Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> At our meeting next week we're running a bunch of lightning talks.  These are 5
> minute long talks.  Currently we have talks from:

I haven't been in a while and giving a talk will convince me to get off 
my butt :)

I'll talk about PDF::API2 if it hasn't been covered. And because it's St 
Valentines day I'll use PDF::API2 to make a Valentine card :-)

I'll talk the hind-leg off a donkey if you're not careful so tell me how 
long and I'll set an alarm clock :)

Cheers!
Rick Measham


From Stephen.Edmonds at its.monash.edu.au  Sun Feb 11 16:02:53 2007
From: Stephen.Edmonds at its.monash.edu.au (Stephen Edmonds)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:02:53 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web Application Developer/Integrator position at
	Monash
Message-ID: <45CFAEAD.1050201@its.monash.edu.au>

There is a ten month position available at Monash (Clayton campus):

  Web Application Developer/Integrator

  Flexible Learning and Teaching Program
  Information Technology Services Division

  We are seeking a highly skilled Perl developer with a great attitude
  to join our enthusiastic team. You will enjoy working collaboratively
  in designing and developing innovative, rigorous solutions within an
  enterprise-wide, database-backed web application environment; have
  expertise in Linux, Oracle, HTML::Mason (or equivalent); be keen to
  learn and solutions focused with excellent organisational skills.
  Experience with Java, portals, LMSs and usability would be highly
  regarded.

  Salary range: $57,379-$62,934 pa HEW Level 7 plus superannuation

  Applications close: Friday, 23 February 2007

  Applications: By email addressed to Mrs Kate Wrathall at
                kate.wrathall at its.monash.edu.au

  http://sssd.adm.monash.edu.au/employ/job.asp?refnumber=G077483

-- 
Stephen Edmonds
Senior Portal Developer / Integrator
Flexible Learning and Teaching Program
ITS, Monash University

From skud at infotrope.net  Mon Feb 12 17:10:20 2007
From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:10:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
Message-ID: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>

A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s) your
team uses?

Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?

I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops or
offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.

K.


-- 
Kirrily Robert
skud at infotrope.net
http://infotrope.net/


From crshort at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 17:35:18 2007
From: crshort at gmail.com (Christopher Short)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:35:18 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <cd136f1e0702121735o391f597foa6696e845d420bdb@mail.gmail.com>

In my office we have 3 different project teams of approx 6 people
each, working on Unix-Perl based systems, but all using Windows
laptops.

In my last job my department only had a perl dev team of 4. When I
joined 4 years before we were all using old Sun boxes, but management
insistence on all staff using Windows machines saw most people moving
over to PCs, with very few stubborn people insisting on working on
their Sun boxes with the PCs to the side for access to email, the
Windows network, the intranet, timesheeting site etc.

Christopher

On 13/02/07, Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net> wrote:
> A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
> enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s) your
> team uses?
>
> Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
>
> I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops or
> offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.
>
> K.
>
>
> --
> Kirrily Robert
> skud at infotrope.net
> http://infotrope.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Mon Feb 12 21:32:28 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:32:28 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <45D14D6C.6040002@perltraining.com.au>

Kirrily Robert wrote:

> I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops or
> offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.

For our general enrolment courses we tend to have about 50% of people saying 
they expect to develop Perl under Windows.  These use the Perl install on the 
desktop.  The rest ssh into our Linux machine.  I can't say what kind of Unix 
system the rest are used to using, as we merely differentiate between Windows 
and Unix-like.  Mac users bring their own machines ;) -- actually I suspect they 
just pick Win or Linux as they desire.

We also don't ask what kind of end-machine they expect their code to run on. 
But about half expect to _develop_ on some Microsoft operating system.

All the best,

	Jacinta






From blm at woodheap.org  Mon Feb 12 22:53:23 2007
From: blm at woodheap.org (blm at woodheap.org)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:53:23 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Meeting 14th Feb is sponsored by Flat Rate
	Recruitment
Message-ID: <20070213065323.GB9906@woodheap.org>


Hello,                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                          
I am pleased to announce that Flat Rate Recruitment will be sponsoring the                                                
next meeting of Melbourne Perl Mongers.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                          
* Andrew Stuart, the managing director of Flat Rate Recruitment, will be                                                  
 giving a short talk to the group at 6:30 about the company and a couple of                                               
 oppurtunities that he has available for Perl developers                                                                 
                                                                                                                          
* After the meeting there will be pizza and drinks for all attendees                                                      
  courtesy of Flat Rate Recruitment.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                          
Please join us to find out about these great opportunities and enjoy the                                                  
refreshments after the meeting. 

Regards,

Ben Marsh
Treasurer
Melbourne Perl Mongers


From krobert at realestate.com.au  Mon Feb 12 22:33:07 2007
From: krobert at realestate.com.au (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:33:07 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <45D14D6C.6040002@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05728BF5@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>

Jacinta wrote:
> Kirrily Robert wrote:
> 
> > I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux
desktops or
> > offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that
is.
> 
> For our general enrolment courses we tend to have about 50% of people
saying 
> they expect to develop Perl under Windows.  These use the Perl install
on the 
> desktop.  The rest ssh into our Linux machine.  I can't say what kind
of Unix 
> system the rest are used to using, as we merely differentiate between
Windows 
> and Unix-like.  Mac users bring their own machines ;) -- actually I
suspect they 
> just pick Win or Linux as they desire.
> 
> We also don't ask what kind of end-machine they expect their code to
run on. 
> But about half expect to _develop_ on some Microsoft operating system.

Interesting.

Is that the same across all your courses, from the introductory to the
more advanced ones, or do you see the preferences shifting?  And, do you
have any feel for how many of your students are full-time Perl
programmers vs how many might use Perl part-time in their jobs, for
instance as sysadmins, and how many are working in a team of
Perl/LAMP/etc developers as opposed to being a lone Perl programmer?

K.



From rick at measham.id.au  Mon Feb 12 23:09:02 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:09:02 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <45D1640E.7080806@measham.id.au>

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
> enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s) your
> team uses?
> 
> Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
> 
> I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops or
> offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.

We have (had) four perl developers .. all on laptops with second
monitors. OS is up to the user.

1 x kubuntu
1 x ubuntu (but using kate!)
1 x windows xp + cygwin
1 x OS-X

Cheers!
Rick Measham


From scottp at dd.com.au  Tue Feb 13 00:13:17 2007
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:13:17 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <392495D3-38E8-4BC4-A4B9-B9E75BE99F87@dd.com.au>

Editure teams are in 3 real groups:

* System admin, testing and support - use a mix of Linux, Mac and  
Windows
* R&D team use Mac OS X (4 developers)
* Development team use mostly Linux desktops and Mac laptops - about  
10+ developers - they are given the choice of OS.

Our production environment is 99% linux - all debian.
Our desktop environment was mostly debian, but many moved to Gentoo,  
Ubuntu and others.

Scott

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Feb 13 03:43:44 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:43:44 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05728BF5@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>
References: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D05728BF5@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au>
Message-ID: <45D1A470.7090100@perltraining.com.au>

Kirrily Robert wrote:

> Is that the same across all your courses, from the introductory to the
> more advanced ones, or do you see the preferences shifting?

The vast majority of our courses are introductory.  The more advanced ones: OO 
Perl, Databases, Web Dev and Security just aren't easy to sell.

	"I already know Perl, I can just pick the rest up"
	"I'm just doing web development, I don't need to learn security, do I?"

	etc.

With web dev and databases we pretty much force the programmers to use our Linux 
box as setting up web servers and databases for each student on their Windows 
boxes has been too hard.  (We only get access to the machines 30 minutes before 
the class starts, and we'd have to install it on all of them!).  Security is 
still in seminar style, so it hasn't really mattered.

I'm not sure if our numbers would be statistically significant, but I think 
we've generally had about 50:50 for OO Perl.

>  And, do you
> have any feel for how many of your students are full-time Perl
> programmers vs how many might use Perl part-time in their jobs, for
> instance as sysadmins, and how many are working in a team of
> Perl/LAMP/etc developers as opposed to being a lone Perl programmer?

We get a full mix.  The following might be correct.

	20-30% of our attendees will be coding alone, or in a group of 2-3.
	20-30% of our attendees will be coding in a large team or department
		who are Perl savvy
	The rest are in varying size teams.

	40% are intending to use Perl for data processing of something, for
	the next while
	20% are system adminstrators
	20% have something to do with databases
	10% are planning to use Perl for web
	10% work in Canberra/for the government and thus can't tell us.  ;)

We don't record what our students are using Perl for, or what operating systems 
they're using it on.  We ask OS at the start of the course so that we can cover 
how to do the exercises, and focus so that we gain an idea of what examples are 
likely to work well.  However, to an extent the answers and proportions stay 
fairly much static.

All the best,

	Jacinta


From gerardaus at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 05:17:26 2007
From: gerardaus at gmail.com (Gerard .)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 05:17:26 -0800
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <cd136f1e0702121735o391f597foa6696e845d420bdb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
	<cd136f1e0702121735o391f597foa6696e845d420bdb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f2691d10702130517y7a085319v74789c7626c2b83b@mail.gmail.com>

Yahoo is a mix of Linux, FreeBSD, Windows and OSX.

It all depends on the preference of the developer and the team.

Most perl coders code on dev servers via ssh, which are
usually Linux or Freebsd.

This is Yahoo US btw.

G


>
> On 13/02/07, Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net> wrote:
> > A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
>
> > enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s)
> your
> > team uses?
> >
> > Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> > developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
> >
> > I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops
> or
> > offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.
> >
> > K.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kirrily Robert
> > skud at infotrope.net
> > http://infotrope.net/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Melbourne-pm mailing list
> > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070213/35a8f4f4/attachment-0001.html 

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Tue Feb 13 13:48:15 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:48:15 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What's new in Perl 5.10, and a big thank-you!
Message-ID: <45D2321F.8070403@perltraining.com.au>

G'day Everyone,

I want to start by saying a huge thank-you to Ben Marsh, who has done a
fantastic job of organising this week's Melb.pm meeting.

I also want to volunteer my OSDC talk "What's new in Perl 5.10", if we have
the time and the audience has the desire.  I'd previously thought I had
presented this at Melb.pm; my apologies for not offering it earlier.

See you tonight,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From blm at woodheap.org  Tue Feb 13 19:13:51 2007
From: blm at woodheap.org (blm at woodheap.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:13:51 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Reminder: Perl Monger's Meeting 14th Feb
Message-ID: <20070214031350.GA12775@woodheap.org>

This months meeting is sponsored By Flatrate Recruitment.

Hi All,

Just a reminder about the  meeting tonight.

 
        Date:           Wednesday 14th February 2007
        Time:           6:30pm                                                       
        Location:       Level 8, 14 Blackwood Street, North Melbourne                
			(The usual place)

(If you are late a notice will be posted with a mobile to call. Someone will come down and let you in)

* First up we will have a talk from Andrew Stuart about some excellent Perl related career oppurtunities.  Andrew and Flat Rate Recruitment are sponsoring this meeting by providing pizza and drinks. A big thank you to Andrew and Flat Rate Recruitment.

* The talks tonight will be Lightning talks about some of the large number of useful modules available on CPAN.  Currently we have talks voluteered by:

Alfie John
Simon Taylor: AI::Genetic -  A pure Perl genetic algorithm implement
     Touching on:                                                                    
       roulette-wheel selection                                                      
       tournament selection                                                          
       fitness functions                                                             
       what a "fitness landscape" is                                                 
       and the trouble with local peaks in the fitness landscape  
Rick Measham: PDF::API2: How to generate valentines cards.
Paul Fenwick: Whats new in perl 5.10

(If I have forgotten anyone please reply to this message with the details)

Don't worry.  There is still time to create a talk and we will accept talk nominations up until the start of the meeting.  If you are still looking for modules to talk about just drop over to 

http://wellington.pm.org/bin/cpan_roulette.cgi

 
take the module it suggests and tell us a bit about it.  You might include:          
                                                                                     
        * what it does                                                               
        * basic synopsis                                                             
        * possible uses                                                              
        * its cpants/kwalitee/cpan ratings                                           
        * who wrote it                                                               
        * similar modules                                                            
                                                                                     
You can do this even if you never knew the module existed before and thus have       
never used it!  Help us give a whirlwind tour of CPAN!

* After the talks are finished there will be pizza and drinks for everyone couresty of Flat Rate Recruitment.


I hope to see you there,

Ben Marsh
Treasurer
Melbourne Perl Mongers.
                                                                           

From list at bereft.net  Tue Feb 13 18:35:33 2007
From: list at bereft.net (Brad Bowman)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:35:33 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <45D27575.8030103@bereft.net>

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
> enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s) your
> team uses?

Strategic Data's developers use Linux (Ubuntu & Debian).  A few people who do
occasional Perl development use OSX or Windows.  Our servers are Debian
and when developing for Windows we usually use VMware or a remote desktop.
Developers can choose their environment.  I think we're mostly Gnome with
one KDE user and with various levels of tweakage.

Brad

-- 
... But even a person who is good for nothing and exceedingly clumsy will be a
reliable retainer if only he has the determination to think earnestly of his
master.  Having only wisdom and talent is the lowest tier of usefulness.
  -- Hagakure http://bereft.net/hagakure/

From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Tue Feb 13 19:02:46 2007
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:02:46 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
Message-ID: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802BF18C8@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

Hello all,

Many of you would be aware that the output from Test::More and like
minded modules is in a standard "TAP" (test anything protocol) format -
see http://search.cpan.org/search?query=Test::Harness::TAP

This allows Test::Harness or any other "test output analyzer"
module/utility to be used on any testing script written in any language
- as long as its output conforms to TAP.

I've written a simple utility for volume testing a CLI accessible device
using TCL/expect.  It prints out TAP on stdout - specifically so that I
could use Test::Harness to analyze the results but, I cant get
Test::Harness to run it for me...

Shell>  perl -MTest::Harness -e 'runtests("./voltest.tcl")'
./voltest....couldn't read file "-w": no such file or directory
./voltest....dubious
        Test returned status 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)
FAILED--1 test script could be run, alas--no output ever seen
Shell> 

Anyone been here before?  Anyone know Test::Harness well enough to tell
me what I'm doing wrong?

Many thanks,
Martin


From simon at unisolve.com.au  Tue Feb 13 19:12:32 2007
From: simon at unisolve.com.au (Simon Taylor)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:12:32 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
In-Reply-To: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802BF18C8@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
References: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802BF18C8@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <200702141412.32114.simon@unisolve.com.au>

Hello Martin,

> Anyone been here before?  Anyone know Test::Harness well enough to tell
> me what I'm doing wrong?

You need to tell Test::Harness to stop using the '-w ' switch:

perl -MTest::Harness -e '$Test::Harness::switches=undef;runtests("./a1.tcl")'

Regards,

Simon Taylor
-- 
Unisolve Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
+61 3 9568 2005


From Hamish.Carpenter at its.monash.edu.au  Tue Feb 13 19:55:12 2007
From: Hamish.Carpenter at its.monash.edu.au (Hamish Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:12 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
Message-ID: <45D28820.7040102@its.monash.edu.au>

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
> enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s) your
> team uses?

I work at Monash University on their portal which is written in mod_perl and HTML::Mason. We have a team of approximately 12 developers, including 3 senior developers. 

All development work occurs (via ssh) on our development server which is running Linux (like what Gerard said).

Most developers run the Monash SOE (standard operating environment) which is currently Windows XP SP2. They predominately use PuTTY to ssh into the development server and edit code using Vim. A single developer uses the Komodo IDE which is x-forwarded to windows from the development server (these are the only editors installed on the development server).

Oddly enough (IMHO) for a team of perl developers, only two people run linux (ubuntu) as their primary operating system. Of these two, one uses vim remotely and the other uses eclipse with the EPIC perl editor plug in via an NFS mount to get local access to the files. The people using linux use remote desktop to test web developments in Internet Explorer and to use .

hamish


*disclaimer* 
i am the odd one out who uses linux but runs eclipse. i run linux as we do not have full control of our development environment and it is difficult to test perl modules without asking our systems administrator to install them. i use eclipse because i like editing with tabs (like browsing with tabs in firefox).


> 
> Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
> 
> I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops or
> offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.
> 
> K.

From blm at woodheap.org  Tue Feb 13 22:49:51 2007
From: blm at woodheap.org (blm at woodheap.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:49:51 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Editure is recruiting Software Developers
Message-ID: <20070214064951.GA13560@woodheap.org>

Due to recent and ongoing business growth, Editure is looking for Software
Developers to join the Software Development team located in the North
Melbourne office. Basically, the job involves developing and maintaining our web-based application suite written mostly in Perl and deployed to Debian Linux servers.

Commercial experience with Perl development is desirable. Experience in any of the following areas would be highly regarded:

Open source development (C/C++, PHP, Perl)
High level design and system integration
Directory services, including LDAP
CSS, Javascript and HTML
XSL/T and XPath
Authentication (Shibboleth)
E-Learning technologies (SCORM, IMS)

For more details please see this url:

http://it.seek.com.au/showjob.asp?jobid=8647012

Please forward all applications through seek.com.au

Regards,

Ben Marsh


From ben at benbalbo.com  Tue Feb 13 21:57:25 2007
From: ben at benbalbo.com (Ben Balbo)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:57:25 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] BarCampMelbourne: 3rd & 4th of March
Message-ID: <45D2A4C5.7020301@benbalbo.com>

Hi everyone!

As some of you already know, I'm organising a BarCamp - a
mini-conference come brainstorming weekend that's open to all. The event
is free, but requires all attendees to be participants.

Feel free to pass this invite to anyone you think might be interested.
If you are able to forward this to any mailing lists, please make sure
they haven't been contacted already (see link at end of announcement).

Cheers, and hope to see you there!
Ben Balbo

------------------------------------------------------------------------

BarCamp Melbourne : http://barcampmelbourne.org/

3rd and 4th of March, 2007

      BarCampMelbourne is part of the BarCampAustralia, and will be
      held at the same time as other BarCamps across Australia.

*** YOU MUST REGISTER IF YOU INTEND TO COME *************************
*
* If you do not register and turn up, you might not have anywhere to
* sleep! Register now at http://barcampmelbourne.org/?2007Attendees
*
*********************************************************************

A BarCamp is an ad-hoc gathering born from the desire for people to
share and learn in an open environment. It is an intense event with
discussions, demos, and interaction from participants. If you want to
attend, you are encouraged to give a presentation or a demo of some kind.

This event will start at 9am on the Saturday morning and go on until
Sunday afternoon.

What to bring?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  You must bring a sleeping bag and pillow to use in the beds provided.

  We're hoping to get sufficient sponsorship to offer food, but for now,
  please assume you need to bring your own food and drink.

  Bring your laptop, desktop, wireless access point, switches, power
  boards, etc.

  NOTE: The organisers are not responsible for your equipment or other
        items you bring. You bring them at your own risk.

Where?
~~~~~~
  The venue is yet to be confirmed and announced, but we're hoping to
  get a central location in the heart of Melbourne.

Please spread this call for participation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  But if you're planning to send it to a list, check the lists this call
  has already been sent to at:
  http://barcampmelbourne.org/?2007AdvertisingLists

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070214/60b5f395/attachment.bin 

From rick at measham.id.au  Wed Feb 14 03:09:43 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:09:43 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] My PDF::API2 Tutorial
Message-ID: <45D2EDF7.4020100@measham.id.au>

The Tutorial:
http://rick.measham.id.au/pdf-api2/

The Valentine's Day Card:
http://rick.measham.id.au/paste/card.txt

Cheers!
Rick Measham

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Wed Feb 14 04:30:52 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:30:52 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Photographs on-line
Message-ID: <45D300FC.5030400@perltraining.com.au>

G'day everyone,

I've finished uploading my photos from tonight to flickr.  You can find them
in my Perl Mongers set at:

	http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfenwick/sets/72157594535315824/

My favourite is of Rick and his PDF::API2 Valentine's Day card at:

	http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfenwick/390062585/

You may also find it useful to see all photos tagged with "melb.pm"

	http://flickr.com/photos/tags/melbpm

Cheerio,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au  Wed Feb 14 20:22:46 2007
From: lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au (Leigh Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:22:46 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
Message-ID: <H00000690013a20c.1171513365.mail.pacificwireless.net.au@MHS>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070215/d0511790/attachment.pl 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070215/d0511790/attachment.html 

From brendon.oliver at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 20:33:21 2007
From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:33:21 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
In-Reply-To: <H00000690013a20c.1171513365.mail.pacificwireless.net.au@MHS>
References: <H00000690013a20c.1171513365.mail.pacificwireless.net.au@MHS>
Message-ID: <200702151533.22247.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>

On Thursday 15 February 2007 15:22, Leigh Sharpe wrote:
> Hi All,
>  Does anybody know of any method of looking up Australian postcodes?
> I need to validate the input on a postal address, and confirm that the
> postcode given for the suburb is correct.
> A quick search of CPAN doesn't yield anything promising.

Perhaps download the postcode database from:

http://www1.auspost.com.au/postcodes/index.asp?sub=2

it's a CSV file which you should be able to readily parse (do I smell a CPAN 
module coming... ;-)

cheers,

- b.

-- 
Emotions are alien to me.  I'm a scientist.
		-- Spock, "This Side of Paradise", stardate 3417.3

 15:33:04 up 57 days, 59 min,  1 user,  load average: 0.29, 0.24, 0.19


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Feb 14 20:45:19 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:45:19 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
In-Reply-To: <H00000690013a20c.1171513365.mail.pacificwireless.net.au@MHS>
References: <H00000690013a20c.1171513365.mail.pacificwireless.net.au@MHS>
Message-ID: <45D3E55F.2060603@perltraining.com.au>

Leigh Sharpe wrote:
> Hi All,
>  Does anybody know of any method of looking up Australian postcodes?
> I need to validate the input on a postal address, and confirm that the 
> postcode given for the suburb is correct.
> A quick search of CPAN doesn't yield anything promising.

Neither of these do what you're asking for, but they may be useful.

	Regexp::Common::zip  can verify the _format_ of Australian postcodes
	Geo::PostalAddress   can be used to verify/generate addresses in
	                      Australian format

If you write a module to deal with AusPost's database, you may want to work in 
the Geo::Postcode:: name space, and to conform to their existing interface.


All the best,

	Jacinta

From leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au  Wed Feb 14 20:59:03 2007
From: leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au (leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:59:03 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E3798807698019B6758@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

If you wanted to get really serious about accurate address processing,
you could contact a company called Axciom and get their PAFLink
software, it will tell not only if the postcode is correct, but also if
the address is valid, and potentially reformat it to AusPost
requirements, plus give you the DPID for the address.
 
AusPost do have a subscription service for the postcode, NSP etc tables.
 
L

  _____  

From: lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au
[mailto:lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au] 
Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2007 3:23 PM
To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification


Hi All,
 Does anybody know of any method of looking up Australian postcodes?
I need to validate the input on a postal address, and confirm that the
postcode given for the suburb is correct.
A quick search of CPAN doesn't yield anything promising.
 
Regards,
             Leigh
 
Leigh Sharpe
Network Systems Engineer
Pacific Wireless
Ph +61 3 9584 8966
Mob 0408 009 502
Helpdesk 1300 300 616
email lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au
<blocked::mailto:lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au> 
web www.pacificwireless.com.au
<blocked::http://www.pacificwireless.com.au/> 
 


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date:
9/02/2007



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date:
9/02/2007


**********************************************************************
IMPORTANT
The contents of this e-mail and its attachments are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If
you received this e-mail in error, please notify the HPA Postmaster, postmaster at hpa.com.au,
then delete  the e-mail.
This footnote also confirms that this e-mail message has been swept for the
presence of computer viruses by Ironport. Before opening or using any
attachments, check them for viruses and defects.
Our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments.
HPA collects personal information to provide and market our services. For more
information about use, disclosure and access see our Privacy Policy at
www.hpa.com.au
**********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070215/293c7a3d/attachment.html 

From thogard at knotty.abnormal.com  Wed Feb 14 21:32:00 2007
From: thogard at knotty.abnormal.com (Tim Hogard)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:32:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
In-Reply-To: <45D3E55F.2060603@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <200702150532.l1F5W0ji004726@knotty.abnormal.com>

> 
> Leigh Sharpe wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >  Does anybody know of any method of looking up Australian postcodes?
> > I need to validate the input on a postal address, and confirm that the 
> > postcode given for the suburb is correct.
> > A quick search of CPAN doesn't yield anything promising.
> 
> Neither of these do what you're asking for, but they may be useful.
> 
> 	Regexp::Common::zip  can verify the _format_ of Australian postcodes
> 	Geo::PostalAddress   can be used to verify/generate addresses in
> 	                      Australian format
> 
> If you write a module to deal with AusPost's database, you may want to work in 
> the Geo::Postcode:: name space, and to conform to their existing interface.

I wonder how many web sites would have better "find the nearest office"
if any of the free data had coordinates in it as well.

-tim
http://web.abnormal.com

From david at naturalpractice.com.au  Wed Feb 14 21:43:04 2007
From: david at naturalpractice.com.au (David)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:43:04 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Postcode verification
In-Reply-To: <200702150532.l1F5W0ji004726@knotty.abnormal.com>
References: <200702150532.l1F5W0ji004726@knotty.abnormal.com>
Message-ID: <45D3F2E8.3050803@naturalpractice.com.au>

Hi,

I built a small database with the longitude and latitude of every
postcode in Australia by querying the Google Maps API for just that reason.

Cheers,

DB

Tim Hogard wrote:
>> Leigh Sharpe wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi All,
>>>  Does anybody know of any method of looking up Australian postcodes?
>>> I need to validate the input on a postal address, and confirm that the 
>>> postcode given for the suburb is correct.
>>> A quick search of CPAN doesn't yield anything promising.
>>>       
>> Neither of these do what you're asking for, but they may be useful.
>>
>> 	Regexp::Common::zip  can verify the _format_ of Australian postcodes
>> 	Geo::PostalAddress   can be used to verify/generate addresses in
>> 	                      Australian format
>>
>> If you write a module to deal with AusPost's database, you may want to work in 
>> the Geo::Postcode:: name space, and to conform to their existing interface.
>>     
>
> I wonder how many web sites would have better "find the nearest office"
> if any of the free data had coordinates in it as well.
>
> -tim
> http://web.abnormal.com
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070215/746fda1a/attachment-0001.html 

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Thu Feb 15 09:22:17 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:22:17 +0200
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
In-Reply-To: <200702141412.32114.simon@unisolve.com.au>
References: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802BF18C8@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
	<200702141412.32114.simon@unisolve.com.au>
Message-ID: <200702151922.17619.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi all!

On Wednesday 14 February 2007, Simon Taylor wrote:
> Hello Martin,
>
> > Anyone been here before?  Anyone know Test::Harness well enough to tell
> > me what I'm doing wrong?
>
> You need to tell Test::Harness to stop using the '-w ' switch:
>
> perl -MTest::Harness -e
> '$Test::Harness::switches=undef;runtests("./a1.tcl")'
>

As I was trying the same with the Test::Harness-based "prove" and the 
Test::Run-based "runprove", I found out a problem with runprove. Apparently, 
it used to pass "-w" to the scripts even if no command line switches were 
specified on the command line. So I fixed this bug and now everything is 
peachy in its Subversion trunk.

Thanks for noting that.

BTW, it works because perl detects the sha-bang and run the alternative 
program specified there instead.

Oh and also look at:

http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/32092

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From saramic at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 14:45:24 2007
From: saramic at gmail.com (michael milewski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:45:24 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <45D28820.7040102@its.monash.edu.au>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
	<45D28820.7040102@its.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <50a0e99b0702151445r4e644160p9552d12270ec306f@mail.gmail.com>

hmm, I thought everyone would be moving up to Vista with word recognition

Video: Writing Perl Scripts Using Vista Speech Recognition
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=9803

On 2/14/07, Hamish Carpenter <Hamish.Carpenter at its.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Kirrily Robert wrote:
> > A question for those of you working full-time in Perl development: may I
> > enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment(s)
> your
> > team uses?
>
> I work at Monash University on their portal which is written in mod_perl
> and HTML::Mason. We have a team of approximately 12 developers, including 3
> senior developers.
>
> All development work occurs (via ssh) on our development server which is
> running Linux (like what Gerard said).
>
> Most developers run the Monash SOE (standard operating environment) which
> is currently Windows XP SP2. They predominately use PuTTY to ssh into the
> development server and edit code using Vim. A single developer uses the
> Komodo IDE which is x-forwarded to windows from the development server
> (these are the only editors installed on the development server).
>
> Oddly enough (IMHO) for a team of perl developers, only two people run
> linux (ubuntu) as their primary operating system. Of these two, one uses vim
> remotely and the other uses eclipse with the EPIC perl editor plug in via an
> NFS mount to get local access to the files. The people using linux use
> remote desktop to test web developments in Internet Explorer and to use .
>
> hamish
>
>
> *disclaimer*
> i am the odd one out who uses linux but runs eclipse. i run linux as we do
> not have full control of our development environment and it is difficult to
> test perl modules without asking our systems administrator to install them.
> i use eclipse because i like editing with tabs (like browsing with tabs in
> firefox).
>
>
> >
> > Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> > developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
> >
> > I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux desktops
> or
> > offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that is.
> >
> > K.
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070216/bcf532ab/attachment.html 

From scottp at dd.com.au  Thu Feb 15 15:22:33 2007
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:22:33 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Apache::DBI
Message-ID: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>

Hey Guys

I am working on a set of caching modules for mod_perl.
I absolutely love the transparency of Apache::DBI - you simply load  
the module and then any time you use DBI->connect - it uses the  
cached - or precached versions.

However looking at the code:

	http://search.cpan.org/src/PGOLLUCCI/Apache-DBI-1.05/lib/Apache/DBI.pm

I can't figure out how this works.

The code for precache makes sense. But I can't figure out where in  
the code it takes over from DBI->connect. I do know it must be loaded  
before any other module does a "use DBI".

Any ideas guys? My code will be a pre-cached version of a some XSL  
modules - which means that you do nothing new and your code will use  
the precompiled XSL - where as traditionally everyone implements  
their own cache - this means your code works faster when moving from  
CGI to mod_perl - with no code change, or even from Catalyst stand  
alone into Catalyst via mod_perl.

Scott
-- 
* - *  http://www.osdc.com.au - Open Source Developers Conference * - *
Scott Penrose
Open source developer
http://linux.dd.com.au/
scottp at dd.com.au

Dismaimer: Open sauce usually ends up never coming out (of the bottle).

Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Microsoft is not the answer. It's the question. And the answer is no.



From steve at sabljak.org  Thu Feb 15 15:30:56 2007
From: steve at sabljak.org (Steve Sabljak)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:30:56 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Apache::DBI
In-Reply-To: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>
References: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <81c28d920702151530g64b8823p187d713b72a27d37@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Scott,

It's the DBI class itself which figures out it should call
Apache::DBI::connect is that module is in @INC and you're running
under mod_perl.

cheers,
Steve

On 2/16/07, Scott Penrose <scottp at dd.com.au> wrote:
> Hey Guys
>
> I am working on a set of caching modules for mod_perl.
> I absolutely love the transparency of Apache::DBI - you simply load
> the module and then any time you use DBI->connect - it uses the
> cached - or precached versions.
>
> However looking at the code:
>
>        http://search.cpan.org/src/PGOLLUCCI/Apache-DBI-1.05/lib/Apache/DBI.pm
>
> I can't figure out how this works.
>
> The code for precache makes sense. But I can't figure out where in
> the code it takes over from DBI->connect. I do know it must be loaded
> before any other module does a "use DBI".
>
> Any ideas guys? My code will be a pre-cached version of a some XSL
> modules - which means that you do nothing new and your code will use
> the precompiled XSL - where as traditionally everyone implements
> their own cache - this means your code works faster when moving from
> CGI to mod_perl - with no code change, or even from Catalyst stand
> alone into Catalyst via mod_perl.
>
> Scott
> --
> * - *  http://www.osdc.com.au - Open Source Developers Conference * - *
> Scott Penrose
> Open source developer
> http://linux.dd.com.au/
> scottp at dd.com.au
>
> Dismaimer: Open sauce usually ends up never coming out (of the bottle).
>
> Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> Microsoft is not the answer. It's the question. And the answer is no.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From Stephen.Edmonds at its.monash.edu.au  Thu Feb 15 15:38:03 2007
From: Stephen.Edmonds at its.monash.edu.au (Stephen Edmonds)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:38:03 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Apache::DBI
In-Reply-To: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>
References: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <45D4EEDB.1090103@its.monash.edu.au>

Scott,

It isn't that Apache::DBI overrides DBI->connect().  What happens is 
that DBI itself is written to detect if Apache::DBI is loaded and if so 
use that connect method.

If you bring up the DBI code [1] and search for Apache you will find 
logic that changes the connect methods.

I suppose you could do it without changing the original module but the 
only way I can think of at the moment would be symbol table manipulation 
which may not work depending on when the modules are loaded.

Another option would be a wrapper or sub-class that added in the caching.

Thanks,

Stephen

[1] http://search.cpan.org/src/TIMB/DBI-1.53/DBI.pm

Scott Penrose wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> I am working on a set of caching modules for mod_perl.
> I absolutely love the transparency of Apache::DBI - you simply load  
> the module and then any time you use DBI->connect - it uses the  
> cached - or precached versions.
> 
> However looking at the code:
> 
> 	http://search.cpan.org/src/PGOLLUCCI/Apache-DBI-1.05/lib/Apache/DBI.pm
> 
> I can't figure out how this works.
> 
> The code for precache makes sense. But I can't figure out where in  
> the code it takes over from DBI->connect. I do know it must be loaded  
> before any other module does a "use DBI".
> 
> Any ideas guys? My code will be a pre-cached version of a some XSL  
> modules - which means that you do nothing new and your code will use  
> the precompiled XSL - where as traditionally everyone implements  
> their own cache - this means your code works faster when moving from  
> CGI to mod_perl - with no code change, or even from Catalyst stand  
> alone into Catalyst via mod_perl.
> 
> Scott

-- 
Stephen Edmonds
Senior Portal Developer / Integrator
Flexible Learning and Teaching Program
ITS, Monash University

From guy at alchemy.com.au  Thu Feb 15 15:58:16 2007
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:58:16 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Desktop environments
In-Reply-To: <50a0e99b0702151445r4e644160p9552d12270ec306f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4714.203.13.23.48.1171329020.squirrel@webmail.infotrope.net>
	<45D28820.7040102@its.monash.edu.au>
	<50a0e99b0702151445r4e644160p9552d12270ec306f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6BA4833B-C8DE-4271-BB19-936AACDF9C68@alchemy.com.au>

That works almost as goodly as the Mac's speech recognition... :-)  
Great novelty for the showroom, but completely useless.

Guy


On 16/02/2007, at 9:45 AM, michael milewski wrote:

> hmm, I thought everyone would be moving up to Vista with word  
> recognition
>
> Video: Writing Perl Scripts Using Vista Speech Recognition
> http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=9803
>
> On 2/14/07, Hamish Carpenter <Hamish.Carpenter at its.monash.edu.au>  
> wrote:
> Kirrily Robert wrote:
> > A question for those of you working full-time in Perl  
> development: may I
> > enquire as to the size of your team, and what desktop environment 
> (s) your
> > team uses?
>
> I work at Monash University on their portal which is written in  
> mod_perl and HTML::Mason. We have a team of approximately 12  
> developers, including 3 senior developers.
>
> All development work occurs (via ssh) on our development server  
> which is running Linux (like what Gerard said).
>
> Most developers run the Monash SOE (standard operating environment)  
> which is currently Windows XP SP2. They predominately use PuTTY to  
> ssh into the development server and edit code using Vim. A single  
> developer uses the Komodo IDE which is x-forwarded to windows from  
> the development server (these are the only editors installed on the  
> development server).
>
> Oddly enough (IMHO) for a team of perl developers, only two people  
> run linux (ubuntu) as their primary operating system. Of these two,  
> one uses vim remotely and the other uses eclipse with the EPIC perl  
> editor plug in via an NFS mount to get local access to the files.  
> The people using linux use remote desktop to test web developments  
> in Internet Explorer and to use .
>
> hamish
>
>
> *disclaimer*
> i am the odd one out who uses linux but runs eclipse. i run linux  
> as we do not have full control of our development environment and  
> it is difficult to test perl modules without asking our systems  
> administrator to install them. i use eclipse because i like editing  
> with tabs (like browsing with tabs in firefox).
>
>
> >
> > Also, can anyone tell me what desktop environments are in use among
> > developers at Yahoo or Google in Australia?
> >
> > I have hypothesized that most Perl development shops use Linux  
> desktops or
> > offer the developers a choice, but I'm wondering how correct that  
> is.
> >
> > K.
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070216/0b02e8ff/attachment.html 

From scottp at dd.com.au  Thu Feb 15 18:13:59 2007
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:13:59 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Apache::DBI
In-Reply-To: <45D4EEDB.1090103@its.monash.edu.au>
References: <96E3A620-017C-4199-A64C-A204D2ED05F3@dd.com.au>
	<45D4EEDB.1090103@its.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <18DF3B14-7D1A-4180-A19D-CDECECB72CE8@dd.com.au>

Now I know why I could not find the code :-) Thanks guys

So I guess my question is now - can I do it for other modules, and if  
not, make sure the wrapper is generic enough.

Ta

Scooter


From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Sun Feb 18 14:12:53 2007
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:12:53 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
In-Reply-To: <200702151922.17619.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
Message-ID: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802C2BE0B@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

Thanks Shlomi and Simon - its all good now.  For anyone else out there
doing anything similar, there's a completely new TAP framework being
written by Schwern (http://perl-qa.yi.org/index.php/TAP::Harness) that
includes running tests in parallel which will be very useful for volume
testing. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif at iglu.org.il]
> Sent: Friday, 16 February 2007 4:22 AM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org; simon at unisolve.com.au
> Cc: Ryan, Martin G
> Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
> 
> Hi all!
> 
> On Wednesday 14 February 2007, Simon Taylor wrote:
> > Hello Martin,
> >
> > > Anyone been here before?  Anyone know Test::Harness well enough to
> > > me what I'm doing wrong?
> >
> > You need to tell Test::Harness to stop using the '-w ' switch:
> >
> > perl -MTest::Harness -e
> > '$Test::Harness::switches=undef;runtests("./a1.tcl")'
> >
> 
> As I was trying the same with the Test::Harness-based "prove" and the
> Test::Run-based "runprove", I found out a problem with runprove.
> Apparently,
> it used to pass "-w" to the scripts even if no command line switches
were
> specified on the command line. So I fixed this bug and now everything
is
> peachy in its Subversion trunk.
> 
> Thanks for noting that.
> 
> BTW, it works because perl detects the sha-bang and run the
alternative
> program specified there instead.
> 
> Oh and also look at:
> 
> http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/32092
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Shlomi Fish
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
> Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/
> 
> Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
> destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his
> secrets.

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Sun Feb 18 23:29:26 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:29:26 +0200
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
In-Reply-To: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802C2BE0B@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
References: <91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE802C2BE0B@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <200702190929.27463.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi Ryan!

On Monday 19 February 2007, Ryan, Martin G wrote:
> Thanks Shlomi and Simon - its all good now.  For anyone else out there
> doing anything similar, there's a completely new TAP framework being
> written by Schwern (http://perl-qa.yi.org/index.php/TAP::Harness) that
> includes running tests in parallel which will be very useful for volume
> testing.
>

TAP::Harness is no longer actively developed. The last commit to 
http://svn.schwern.org/svn/CPAN/TAP-Harness/trunk/ was from 2006-06-30 and to 
quote Schwern and myself on the IRC:

<<<<<<<<<<<<
<rindolf>    Schwern: any progress with TAP::Harness?
<Schwern>    Ovid has taken that over with TAPx::Parser.  They're talking
	     about gutting Test::Harness and using it as the engine making TH 3.0
<rindolf>    Schwern: I see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

So I suggest you use TAPx::Parser, TAPx::Harness or Test::Run and not build 
your hopes up for TAP::Harness. I should note that runnings tests in parallel 
is an enhancement I'd like to put into Test::Run, but it is not implemented 
yet. Patches are welcome, though.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif at iglu.org.il]
> > Sent: Friday, 16 February 2007 4:22 AM
> > To: melbourne-pm at pm.org; simon at unisolve.com.au
> > Cc: Ryan, Martin G
> > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Testing non-pel scripts with Test::Harness
> >
> > Hi all!
> >
> > On Wednesday 14 February 2007, Simon Taylor wrote:
> > > Hello Martin,
> > >
> > > > Anyone been here before?  Anyone know Test::Harness well enough to
> > > > me what I'm doing wrong?
> > >
> > > You need to tell Test::Harness to stop using the '-w ' switch:
> > >
> > > perl -MTest::Harness -e
> > > '$Test::Harness::switches=undef;runtests("./a1.tcl")'
> >
> > As I was trying the same with the Test::Harness-based "prove" and the
> > Test::Run-based "runprove", I found out a problem with runprove.
> > Apparently,
> > it used to pass "-w" to the scripts even if no command line switches
>
> were
>
> > specified on the command line. So I fixed this bug and now everything
>
> is
>
> > peachy in its Subversion trunk.
> >
> > Thanks for noting that.
> >
> > BTW, it works because perl detects the sha-bang and run the
>
> alternative
>
> > program specified there instead.
> >
> > Oh and also look at:
> >
> > http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/32092
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > 	Shlomi Fish
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
> > Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/
> >
> > Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
> > destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his
> > secrets.



-- 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From tim.hunt at bom.gov.au  Mon Feb 19 19:44:58 2007
From: tim.hunt at bom.gov.au (Tim Hunt)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:44:58 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Using strict...
Message-ID: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>

Hi All;

I am updating *old* cgi-bin scripts to _use strict_.

The original author had a suite of config files A.cfg, B.cfg etc. that
were parsed at run time to declare variables.

for example:
# A.cfg

$foo = 'hello world';
$bar = 3;

##

#Main script:

# Read the config file and execute each line in it as a perl statement;
print "config_file is.. $config_file\n";
open(IN, $config_file) || &my_die("Can't open config file:
\"$config_file\": $!");

while (<IN>){
   eval(&untaint($_));
   if ($@){
      my_warn($@);
   }
}
close(IN);

print $foo;

############

Of course, with strict on, this does not work as the variables are all
confined  to the scope of the eval(config_line).

My options seem to be to declare all the variables in the main script
and carry on regardless, or implement a better config method. 

Discussion appreciated.

Cheers,
Tim.

From cas at taz.net.au  Mon Feb 19 20:05:22 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:05:22 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Using strict...
In-Reply-To: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
References: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
Message-ID: <20070220040522.GA2362@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 02:44:58PM +1100, Tim Hunt wrote:
> My options seem to be to declare all the variables in the main script
> and carry on regardless, or implement a better config method. 
> 
> Discussion appreciated.

two thoughts spring to mind:

1. unless they're huge, it's often better to just rewrite crufty old
cgi scripts from scratch.  at least that way you'll know that they've been
written with best practice (incl. best security practice) in mind.

actually, even if they're huge it's still a good idea. it just takes
longer :)

2. if the config files are just perl (or very perl-like) code, have you 
considered replacing the "while(<IN>)" loop with just "require A.cfg;" ?

that would require editing the .cfg files to add "my" in front of variable
assignments, so that it works with strict...but may be the simplest fix.

alternatively, as you suggest, pre-declare them in the main scripts.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas at taz.net.au>

"It may be that ministers really think that their prayers do good and
 it may be that frogs imagine that their croaking brings spring."
           [Robert G. Ingersoll, "Which Way?", 1884]

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Mon Feb 19 20:28:58 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:28:58 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Using strict...
In-Reply-To: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
References: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
Message-ID: <45DA790A.1090305@perltraining.com.au>

Tim Hunt wrote:

> I am updating *old* cgi-bin scripts to _use strict_.

You are very brave.  ;)  Did you notice that you're using the two argument
version of "open" without specifying file mode?  Depending on how the program
gets the config file name, that could be a security problem.

> The original author had a suite of config files A.cfg, B.cfg etc. that
> were parsed at run time to declare variables.

How many of these are there?  How many variables are they declaring?

> Of course, with strict on, this does not work as the variables are all
> confined  to the scope of the eval(config_line).

Yup that's correct.

> My options seem to be to declare all the variables in the main script
> and carry on regardless, or implement a better config method. 

If you know what variables you expect to import this shouldn't be too much of a
problem.  I presume you're happy to find out what these variables should be.

	# a.cfg
	use strict;

	our $foo = 'hello world';
	our $bar = 3;

	# main
	use strict;
	...
	while (<IN>){
	   eval(untaint($_));
	   if ($@){
	      my_warn($@);
	   }
	}
	our ($foo, $bar);         # Only change

	print $foo;

Personally I'd recommend using a better config method.  I usually use
Config::General but there are lots of other alternatives:

	# aa.cfg
	foo = hello world
	bar = 3

	#Main script:
	use strict;
	use Config::General;

	my $config_file = 'aa.cfg';
	my %config = Config::General->new($config_file)->getall();
	
	print $config{foo}, "\n";
	# or
	my $foo = $config{foo};

The above has a number of advantages over your original:

	* it's shorter (less places for bugs to hide),
	* can handle fields with multiple values
	* can handle flags
	* doesn't require explicit file handling (less problems with open)
	* should be easier for people to immediately understand
	* avoids sneaky security problems if your untaint() method isn't
	  perfect and bad people can edit your config files

On the downsides I don't believe that Config::General comes standard with Perl,
but I could be mistaken.

All the best,

	Jacinta

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Tue Feb 20 09:21:48 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:21:48 +0200
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Using strict...
In-Reply-To: <20070220040522.GA2362@taz.net.au>
References: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
	<20070220040522.GA2362@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <200702201921.48654.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

On Tuesday 20 February 2007, Craig Sanders wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 02:44:58PM +1100, Tim Hunt wrote:
> > My options seem to be to declare all the variables in the main script
> > and carry on regardless, or implement a better config method.
> >
> > Discussion appreciated.
>
> two thoughts spring to mind:
>
> 1. unless they're huge, it's often better to just rewrite crufty old
> cgi scripts from scratch.  at least that way you'll know that they've been
> written with best practice (incl. best security practice) in mind.
>
> actually, even if they're huge it's still a good idea. it just takes
> longer :)
>

Well, some people (including me) disagree with you on these claims:

1. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

2. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html

3. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2538831956647446078&q=moolenaar - 
towards its end Bram Moolenaar (the lead Vim developer) mentions how the 
elvis (an alternative vi clone) developer decided that elvis's codebase was 
not good enough and that he should rewrite it. He spent 2 years doing so, 
without a single release, and ended up with an editor that didn't have all of 
the original codebase's features. As a result, hardly anyone today uses 
elvis, while vim is very popular.

--------

Crufty scripts that don't have strict can be made to have it. If they suffer 
from other problems - these problems can be fixed incrementally while 
maintaining the integrity of the original code. Rewriting the code is much 
more time consuming, introduces more bugs, and requires much more mental 
effort.
 
Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> 2. if the config files are just perl (or very perl-like) code, have you
> considered replacing the "while(<IN>)" loop with just "require A.cfg;" ?
>
> that would require editing the .cfg files to add "my" in front of variable
> assignments, so that it works with strict...but may be the simplest fix.
>
> alternatively, as you suggest, pre-declare them in the main scripts.
>
> craig



-- 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From cas at taz.net.au  Tue Feb 20 14:54:06 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:54:06 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Using strict...
In-Reply-To: <200702201921.48654.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
References: <1171943098.5153.10.camel@oeb-isg-dt-tjh>
	<20070220040522.GA2362@taz.net.au>
	<200702201921.48654.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
Message-ID: <20070220225406.GA7942@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 07:21:48PM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 February 2007, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 02:44:58PM +1100, Tim Hunt wrote:
> > > My options seem to be to declare all the variables in the main script
> > > and carry on regardless, or implement a better config method.
> > >
> > > Discussion appreciated.
> >
> > two thoughts spring to mind:
> >
> > 1. unless they're huge, it's often better to just rewrite crufty old
> > cgi scripts from scratch.  at least that way you'll know that they've been
> > written with best practice (incl. best security practice) in mind.
> >
> > actually, even if they're huge it's still a good idea. it just takes
> > longer :)
> 
> Well, some people (including me) disagree with you on these claims:
> 
> 1. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
> 2. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html

there's an enormous difference between a little cgi script and a huge
application like netscape.  what applies to one does not necessarily apply to
the other.

rewriting something like netscape would be a bad idea. rewriting a <=
5 page cgi script is, or can be, a good idea. and 5 pages (i.e 132x65
text window screenfuls) is getting on the large side for cgi scripts.
many are only a screenful or two of actual code (not incl. bulk embedded
html, which mostly should be in template files or similar anyway).


> Crufty scripts that don't have strict can be made to have it. If they suffer 
> from other problems - these problems can be fixed incrementally while 
> maintaining the integrity of the original code. Rewriting the code is much 
> more time consuming, introduces more bugs, and requires much more mental 
> effort.

and sometimes it's better to just learn from your mistakes, throw away
version 1 and start on version 2.

for small scripts to medium-sized scripts, it's often less work to just
rewrite it from scratch (and/or cutting-and-pasting useful bits of code
- even if just to have the algorithm in the buffer in editable form -
from the original as required), than it is to debug and fix it.

this is particularly true if version 1 was written by someone else who,
of course, had outrageously bad coding habits (as opposed to your own
perfectly sensible and intuitively obvious coding habits :).


the hard part of sw dev is not the coding, it's the design. once you
have the design in your head, the code (mostly :) naturally flows
from that. IMO version 1 is part of the design process - because the
design will inevitably change when theory is hit smack in the face with
reality.

joelonsoftware that you linked to is a pretty good site on software
development philosophy...see the interesting discussion there on the
"plan to throw one version away" chestnut.

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.121537.20

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas at taz.net.au>

Reality is an obstacle to hallucination.

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Feb 21 03:18:19 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:18:19 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Test Shows 99.99% of High School Seniors Can't Read
	Perl
Message-ID: <45DC2A7B.2020301@perltraining.com.au>

It's an oldie, but I hadn't seen this before:

	http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/03/perl_test.html

Have a good week.

	J

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Feb 22 06:56:42 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:56:42 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Secure tokens
Message-ID: <45DDAF2A.9090502@perltraining.com.au>

G'day everyone,

There was a great talk at the last Melbourne PM describing some secure tokens.
  Unfortunately I've forgotten what they were called.  Can someone remind me?

Thanks.

	J


-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |