From rcm19dzhnz at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 11:57:59 2003 From: rcm19dzhnz at yahoo.com (Lupe Park) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Try VIAGRA and feel better about yourself nnh Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031101/745b0d9c/attachment.htm From l8efycmmfc at attbi.com Sat Nov 1 11:55:21 2003 From: l8efycmmfc at attbi.com (Hershel Eldridge) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Use VIAGRA to spice up your love life ay gnvp vjd Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031101/ab0b6976/attachment.htm From djiweodw at msdd.net Mon Nov 10 11:58:44 2003 From: djiweodw at msdd.net (=?Big5?B?pHCy+A==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?pl7As7F6qrqo06tI?= Message-ID: <200311031041.hA3AfRR27141@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031104/d7ec2138/attachment.htm From artiedeloye at inhoneste.yourraise.com Tue Nov 4 06:18:16 2003 From: artiedeloye at inhoneste.yourraise.com (Females Solutions) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Stimulate your L|ps collagen production Message-ID: <11ne58h$--j-635@l79.tgxt> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031104/65a83b9a/attachment.htm From dq03ciw at webtv.com Wed Nov 5 19:38:55 2003 From: dq03ciw at webtv.com (Roger Hatch) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Conference calls/best quality/7.9 cents per min. rm u ostpgei Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031105/ce44bc26/attachment.htm From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 6 19:22:39 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Talks Next Week Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey Dudes, Melbourne Perl Mongers is on next Wednesday at 6:30 pm as usual. I am looking for ideas for talks. I am keen to make the meeting fully discuss, organise and start the whole process of running YAPC::Australia. But I think it would be a good idea to at least have some talks. Next month (December) will be our usual Christmas party. This time I think we should organise it as a BBQ Lunch or Dinner, maybe we should go visit the Camels in the Zoo ? Scooter - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/qvPiDCFCcmAm26YRAtjCAJ9mzJ4n/1uJ8G/grGz8up4BqT33lwCfQTZ/ f3FLKJnNGYpikXeA/+tgZ04= =FQjB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Nov 6 19:36:01 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Talks Next Week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:22 +1100 2003-11-07, Scott Penrose wrote: >I am looking for ideas for talks. I am keen to make the meeting >fully discuss, organise and start the whole process of running >YAPC::Australia. But I think it would be a good idea to at least >have some talks. I'm happy to talk on DateTime .. but I can talk anywhere from 5 minutes to 2 hours so let me know how much you want :) >Next month (December) will be our usual Christmas party. This time I >think we should organise it as a BBQ Lunch or Dinner, maybe we >should go visit the Camels in the Zoo ? Sounds good :) Weekend-nights they have twilight jazz .. included in all-day admission to the zoo. Cheers! Rick From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 6 22:30:26 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling Message-ID: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> Hey Dudes. I am doing some manual quereis on an RT database and having problems with the dates and times. In an RT Ticket we have a Last Updated time of "Fri Nov 7 12:14:06 2003". If I do a query on the database I get the following: mysql> select LastUpdated, UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) as uts from Tickets where id = 12511; +---------------------+------------+ | LastUpdated | uts | +---------------------+------------+ | 2003-11-07 01:14:06 | 1068128046 | +---------------------+------------+ 1 row in set (0.00 sec) If I convert the unix time stamp there to a local time I get: scottp@lust:505:~$ localtime 1068128046 Fri Nov 7 01:14:06 2003 Note that they are the same, all 1:14 (AM). Note that RT shows this is actually 12:14 pm (11 hours later). I can only conclude one of two possible issues. * RT is removing 11 hours before storing in the database - thus invalid entries are being stored in the database. OR * MySQL is not correctly returning Unix Time Stamps Does anyone know which is likely ? And how to fix it ? Scott --- Scott Penrose Digital Dimensions scott@dd.com.au http://www.dd.com.au/ From wigs at stirfried.org Thu Nov 6 21:54:08 2003 From: wigs at stirfried.org (Aaron Wigley) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au>; from scottp@dd.com.au on Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 02:30:26PM +1000 References: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> Message-ID: <20031107145407.A27195@feathers.stirfried.org> On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 02:30:26PM +1000, Scott Penrose wrote: > If I convert the unix time stamp there to a local time I get: > > scottp@lust:505:~$ localtime 1068128046 > Fri Nov 7 01:14:06 2003 > > Note that they are the same, all 1:14 (AM). > Note that RT shows this is actually 12:14 pm (11 hours later). > > I can only conclude one of two possible issues. > > * RT is removing 11 hours before storing in the database - thus invalid entries are being stored in the database. I would guess that RT is using gmtime, not localtime. At the moment we are 11 hours different to UTC. Wigs From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Nov 6 22:13:01 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> References: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> Message-ID: At 14:30 +1000 2003-11-07, Scott Penrose wrote: >Hey Dudes. > >I am doing some manual quereis on an RT database and having problems >with the dates and times. > >In an RT Ticket we have a Last Updated time of "Fri Nov 7 12:14:06 2003". > >If I do a query on the database I get the following: > >mysql> select LastUpdated, UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) as uts from >Tickets where id = 12511; >+---------------------+------------+ >| LastUpdated | uts | >+---------------------+------------+ >| 2003-11-07 01:14:06 | 1068128046 | >+---------------------+------------+ >1 row in set (0.00 sec) > >If I convert the unix time stamp there to a local time I get: > >scottp@lust:505:~$ localtime 1068128046 >Fri Nov 7 01:14:06 2003 > >Note that they are the same, all 1:14 (AM). >Note that RT shows this is actually 12:14 pm (11 hours later). > >I can only conclude one of two possible issues. > > * RT is removing 11 hours before storing in the database - thus >invalid entries are being stored in the database. > >OR > > * MySQL is not correctly returning Unix Time Stamps > >Does anyone know which is likely ? And how to fix it ? By definition, unix time stamps are seconds since 1970-01-01T00:00:00 UTC. 1068128046 = 2003-11-06T14:14:06 But it should be 2003-11-07T12:14. Which is 22 hours later. Basically RT is getting its UTC and Australia/Melbourne all askew. RT says "12:14, that would be UTC, better convert it to Australia/Melbourne by subtracting 11 hours. That would be 1:14" and sends that to the database. Database says "1:14, that would be UTC, better show Scott the local equivelent and subtract 11 hours." Whereas the conversation SHOULD be: RT says "12:14, that would be Australia/Melbourne, better convert it to UTC by adding 11 hours. That would be 23:14" and sends that to the database. Database says "23:14, that would be UTC, better show Scott the local equivelent and subtract 11 hours." And you get 12:14, which is the value you want. As for how to fix it, it's a bug that RT should fix. The other option is to force the database to use the UTC timezone and then think of all the results as being localtime :/ Cheers! Rick From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 6 22:28:25 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, Nov 7, 2003, at 15:13 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham wrote: > > By definition, unix time stamps are seconds since 1970-01-01T00:00:00 > UTC. > > 1068128046 = 2003-11-06T14:14:06 > > But it should be 2003-11-07T12:14. > Which is 22 hours later. > > Basically RT is getting its UTC and Australia/Melbourne all askew. Yes this is exactly what I am expecting. What they are doing is this... Getting time (which is always at GMT as you describe above) then saying lets convert it to GMT by subtracting 11 hours - which of course it already has done when you get it from the system !!! then they stick that into the database. Then on the way out of the database they add 11 hours back to it again. Ahhhh... bad coders. > RT says "12:14, that would be UTC, better convert it to > Australia/Melbourne by subtracting 11 hours. That would be 1:14" and > sends that to the database. > > Database says "1:14, that would be UTC, better show Scott the local > equivelent and subtract 11 hours." > > > Whereas the conversation SHOULD be: > > RT says "12:14, that would be Australia/Melbourne, better convert it > to UTC by adding 11 hours. That would be 23:14" and sends that to the > database. > > Database says "23:14, that would be UTC, better show Scott the local > equivelent and subtract 11 hours." > > And you get 12:14, which is the value you want. > > As for how to fix it, it's a bug that RT should fix. The other option > is to force the database to use the UTC timezone and then think of all > the results as being localtime :/ My problem is how to make this work with the existing code and existing database, both of which I don't have access to changing. Nor do I have the ability to futz with the results after the SQL. Damn them ! Is there some way I can add 11 hours in the query in mySql eg: UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) + (11 * 3600) as uts Scott - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/qx9sDCFCcmAm26YRAiYEAKCKO0VC5mB9EHwig/hwP/SrxUxLJQCgsVB9 IHWFf5p0Yt0CdUXx/t2TvuI= =oMFk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Nov 6 22:36:38 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 15:28 +1100 2003-11-07, Scott Penrose wrote: >My problem is how to make this work with the existing code and >existing database, both of which I don't have access to changing. >Nor do I have the ability to futz with the results after the SQL. > >Damn them ! > >Is there some way I can add 11 hours in the query in mySql > >eg: > UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) + (11 * 3600) as uts > I don't use mySQL myself, but from the docs online (http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Date_and_time_functions.html) it appears to be a case of select UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated + INTERVAL 11 HOUR) OR select UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated)+(11*60*60) Just remember that for any timestamps before (10 hours before the DST change over) you will need to add just 10 hours. :) Ain't DateTime fun? Cheers! Rick From simon at unisolve.com.au Thu Nov 6 22:41:38 2003 From: simon at unisolve.com.au (Simon Taylor) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311071541.38364.simon@unisolve.com.au> Hi Scott, > Is there some way I can add 11 hours in the query in mySql > > eg: > UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) + (11 * 3600) as uts > > Scott Try this as an illustration: SELECT now(), now() + INTERVAL 11 HOUR; And in your case: SELECT UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) + INTERVAL 11 HOUR; Regards, Simon -- Unisolve Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia +61 3 9568 2005 From david_dick at iprimus.com.au Fri Nov 7 19:49:18 2003 From: david_dick at iprimus.com.au (David Dick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> References: <200311070330.OAA16656@adm2.dd.lms.net.au> Message-ID: <3FAC4B9E.5050007@iprimus.com.au> this sounds like a GMT vs Aus EST time issue..... aren't we 11 hours in front at the moment? Scott Penrose wrote: >Hey Dudes. > >I am doing some manual quereis on an RT database and having problems with the dates and times. > >In an RT Ticket we have a Last Updated time of "Fri Nov 7 12:14:06 2003". > >If I do a query on the database I get the following: > >mysql> select LastUpdated, UNIX_TIMESTAMP(LastUpdated) as uts from Tickets where id = 12511; >+---------------------+------------+ >| LastUpdated | uts | >+---------------------+------------+ >| 2003-11-07 01:14:06 | 1068128046 | >+---------------------+------------+ >1 row in set (0.00 sec) > >If I convert the unix time stamp there to a local time I get: > >scottp@lust:505:~$ localtime 1068128046 >Fri Nov 7 01:14:06 2003 > >Note that they are the same, all 1:14 (AM). >Note that RT shows this is actually 12:14 pm (11 hours later). > >I can only conclude one of two possible issues. > > * RT is removing 11 hours before storing in the database - thus invalid entries are being stored in the database. > >OR > > * MySQL is not correctly returning Unix Time Stamps > >Does anyone know which is likely ? And how to fix it ? > >Scott >--- >Scott Penrose >Digital Dimensions >scott@dd.com.au >http://www.dd.com.au/ > > > > From scottp at dd.com.au Sat Nov 8 17:29:29 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: RT (Request Tracker) Date Handling In-Reply-To: <3FAC4B9E.5050007@iprimus.com.au> Message-ID: <661ED194-1243-11D8-83A7-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I have confirmed that it is all RT's fault. There are a number of ways of entering dates into a database (in this case mysql). If you enter a date directly simply (eg: "2003-11-01 23:14") then it assumes it is the local time which is setup on the system (this default behaviour can be changed, but normally it SHOULD be this way). However, you can also tell it the timezone, or even the GMT or even the Unix Time Stamp. All of these work perfectly in mysql - as they should. All (sensible) databases store the dates normalised in GMT format and store the offset, so that it can be asked back in any format you want. RT however expects that the default behaviour of a database be changed to accept strings as assumed to be in GMT. It then converts them back on output. For those developing databases you should do either read/write to the database in GMT time and convert, or let the database do it for you - not both. Mysql has some great methods for asking the time in the format you want. We have a solution we are about to try which is to tell the mysql database that it always receives and should return dates in GMT unless specifically asked - although this will solve my problem - it means that everyone with a spreadsheet or any other means of doing the query will be getting GMT - and have to convert every date (not an easy task in Excel etc). My code fortunately will be unaffected as it always only deals with unix time stamps and converts only on output - as I don't care at this stage about time zone. The problem is of course that all the dates are probably going to come out wrong out of the database. Anyway - this is all just an FYI so that future development of date handling in databases is done properly :-) Scooter - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/rXxcDCFCcmAm26YRAhRmAJwM27ZdBCdi1FceSkavBrdPLRZTEACfaHrm J4qRtO+0yVBSxy28/aKBahY= =Ed2X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From agray at staff.chariot.net.au Sun Nov 9 17:27:37 2003 From: agray at staff.chariot.net.au (andrew@work) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: use strict; Message-ID: <003601c3a719$0fbd21a0$2020190a@andrew> All, I have been trying to write some nice perl code, which has some reusable library subroutines in a ./lib dir. It involves opening and closing a database connection and updating some info. I have not worked with databases before so maybe there is a better way to do this. background. In order to avoid opening and closing the DB connection to often I have let the parent routine open the DB connection and let the subroutines assume it is already open when they are called. (Have had some bad experiences with web pages that open and close DB's way too many times and cause really excessive load). As the subroutines are in a seperate lib file being called by require "./lib/auth.pl" the $dbc variable cannot be seen by the routine if strict is used, but is fine if strict is not used. This is needed as there are a number of different scripts calling the common subroutines. Is there a way to define global variables and keep using strict? Have I missed something else ? Regard? Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031110/14b534b7/attachment.htm From rickm at printaform.com.au Sun Nov 9 18:11:38 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: use strict; In-Reply-To: <003601c3a719$0fbd21a0$2020190a@andrew> References: <003601c3a719$0fbd21a0$2020190a@andrew> Message-ID: At 09:27 +1000 2003-11-10, andrew@work wrote: >Is there a way to define global variables and >keep using strict? Have I missed something else ? Global vars are a Very Bad Thing?. Especially if you want to reference them from libraries. It's not really a library if it requires a global variable. If your library performs common routines with database handles, then make the dbh the first parameter to the function: myLibrary::doSomething( $dbh, ... ) However, if you must use 'Global Variables', then in your main file: use vars qw/$globalvar/; $globalvar = 'some value'; And in your library, you can just use it: print $globalvar Or, if your libarry contains a package, use it as: print $main::globalvar Once again though, global variables are a bad thing ( Maybe have a look at going OO, then your ) .oO( object can contain your 'globals', including ) ( database handles, cache objects & parameters ) Cheers! Rick From agray at staff.chariot.net.au Sun Nov 9 18:32:40 2003 From: agray at staff.chariot.net.au (andrew@work) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: use strict; References: <003601c3a719$0fbd21a0$2020190a@andrew> Message-ID: <018101c3a722$26aa5690$2020190a@andrew> Rick, thanks for taking the time to reply and for your suggestions. I think they have pointed me in the right direction. I cant quite get my head around oop so I will be leaving that well alone for the time being, I'me sure one of the other ways will work fine for me. Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Measham" To: "andrew@work" ; Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:11 AM Subject: Re: use strict; At 09:27 +1000 2003-11-10, andrew@work wrote: >Is there a way to define global variables and >keep using strict? Have I missed something else ? Global vars are a Very Bad Thing?. Especially if you want to reference them from libraries. It's not really a library if it requires a global variable. If your library performs common routines with database handles, then make the dbh the first parameter to the function: myLibrary::doSomething( $dbh, ... ) However, if you must use 'Global Variables', then in your main file: use vars qw/$globalvar/; $globalvar = 'some value'; And in your library, you can just use it: print $globalvar Or, if your libarry contains a package, use it as: print $main::globalvar Once again though, global variables are a bad thing ( Maybe have a look at going OO, then your ) .oO( object can contain your 'globals', including ) ( database handles, cache objects & parameters ) Cheers! Rick From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Sun Nov 9 23:13:31 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Job: Perl programmer Message-ID: <389159.1068441211@silas.cc.monash.edu.au> Monash is hiring perl programmers, full details at: https://sssd.adm.monash.edu.au/employ/job.asp?refnumber=G034640 Or you can look at the summary on jobs.perl.org: http://jobs.perl.org/job/1064 Closing date for applications is *tomorrow* (sorry for the late notice). The services we provide are used by students and staff on every continent (yes, one of our staff is on his way to Antartica right now! Not as part of his perl work though ;-) and require a broad range of skills (e.g. SQL/XML) and technologies (e.g. SMS). Please be sure to specifically address the selection criteria and include three referees in your application (as per https://sssd.adm.monash.edu.au/employ/apply.asp) thanks, N From rafiq at joshua.dreamthought.com Mon Nov 10 04:19:31 2003 From: rafiq at joshua.dreamthought.com (Raf) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: use strict; Message-ID: <33515.145.221.92.40.1068459571.squirrel@webmail.dreamthought.com> andrew@work said: > Rick, thanks for taking the time to reply and for your suggestions. I > think they have pointed me in the right direction. I cant quite get my > head around oop so I will be leaving that well alone for the time > being, I'me sure one of the other ways will work fine for me. Hi Andrew, Just a quick note. I used to work in an environment where lots of 'library' scripts were 'do'ed' and required. My experience is that it's a nice way to start out, however it really makes your code a bugger to maintain, especially when 'library' 'do'es' 'library' 'do'es' library and every variable is a global. You should seriously adhere to Rick's suggestion of sticking your code into a module and keeping some kind of package scoping around these variables. You'll want to checkout 'perldoc perlmod' which will start you off. Once you've got your head around this, which just tidies up what you're doing now, you can then check out perldoc perlobj which will make it easier to get your head around the oop stuff. If others have to use your code in the future, they (and you) will be glad that you made the switch over. Cheers, R. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Measham" > To: "andrew@work" ; > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:11 AM > Subject: Re: use strict; > > > At 09:27 +1000 2003-11-10, andrew@work wrote: >>Is there a way to define global variables and >>keep using strict? Have I missed something else ? > > Global vars are a Very Bad Thing?. Especially if > you want to reference them from libraries. It's > not really a library if it requires a global > variable. If your library performs common > routines with database handles, then make the dbh > the first parameter to the function: > > myLibrary::doSomething( $dbh, ... ) > > > However, if you must use 'Global Variables', then in your main file: > use vars qw/$globalvar/; > $globalvar = 'some value'; > > And in your library, you can just use it: > print $globalvar > > Or, if your libarry contains a package, use it as: > print $main::globalvar > > Once again though, global variables are a bad thing > > ( Maybe have a look at going OO, then your ) > .oO( object can contain your 'globals', including ) > ( database handles, cache objects & parameters ) > > Cheers! > Rick From wayland at smartchat.net.au Mon Nov 10 05:20:27 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: use strict; In-Reply-To: <003601c3a719$0fbd21a0$2020190a@andrew> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, andrew@work wrote: > All, I have been trying to write some nice perl code, which has some > reusable library subroutines in a ./lib dir. > It involves opening and closing a database connection and updating some > info. I have not worked with databases before so maybe there is a better way > to do this. > > background. > In order to avoid opening and closing the DB connection to often I have let > the parent routine open the DB connection and let the subroutines assume it > is already open when they are called. (Have had some bad experiences with > web pages that open and close DB's way too many times and cause really > excessive load). > > As the subroutines are in a seperate lib file being called by require > "./lib/auth.pl" the $dbc variable cannot be seen by the routine if strict is > used, but is fine if strict is not used. This is needed as there are a > number of different scripts calling the common subroutines. > > Is there a way to define global variables and keep using strict? Have I > missed something else ? Hmm. I've been doing something similar except without the web part. I just defined a package variable (global to the package) which opened the database. You don't say what additional technologies if any you're using, but if it's web pages, then maybe you're using mod_perl, and if that's the case, then there's some info about this kind of thing in the performance tuning section of the mod_perl documentation. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From rickmeasham at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 10 05:40:02 2003 From: rickmeasham at optusnet.com.au (rickmeasham@optusnet.com.au) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Talks at PM Meetings Message-ID: <200311101140.hAABe3M21858@mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au> Andrew's post this morning made me think ... maybe we should offer some tutorial type talks on Perl-based fundamentals. I think this happened a couple of times in 2003? Maybe plan and advertise an evening on four topics for 2004. One each quarter. Promote it heavily and invite as many people as possible. I can think of a few topics, but I'm sure there's more: 1. Database design, development and the DBI 2. Object Orientation 3. Writing modules (incl. for CPAN) These tutorial nights should include take-home notes and be well planned and structured. I guess they'd be a warm-up for YAPC.au Any thoughts? Cheers! Rick From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Nov 10 16:06:46 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Talks at PM Meetings In-Reply-To: <200311101140.hAABe3M21858@mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2CB87396-13CA-11D8-A1AA-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 That is an excellent idea ! I particularly like the idea of planning some of the events for next year in advance. So we can organise say 4 main talks and a Christmas party in advance, and that already covers 5 of the 11 months - leaving 6 to be more adhoc - I like it. Makes it easier to update the web site too :-) Although that is easier now since lots of people have access. Scott On Monday, Nov 10, 2003, at 22:40 Australia/Melbourne, rickmeasham@optusnet.com.au wrote: > Andrew's post this morning made me think ... maybe > we should offer some tutorial type talks on Perl-based > fundamentals. I think this happened a couple of times > in 2003? > > Maybe plan and advertise an evening on four topics > for 2004. One each quarter. Promote it heavily and > invite as many people as possible. > > I can think of a few topics, but I'm sure there's more: > 1. Database design, development and the DBI > 2. Object Orientation > 3. Writing modules (incl. for CPAN) > > These tutorial nights should include take-home notes > and be well planned and structured. I guess they'd be > a warm-up for YAPC.au > > Any thoughts? > > Cheers! > Rick > > > > - -- Scott Penrose Open source developer http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Open sauce usually ends up never coming out (of the bottle). Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/sAv5DCFCcmAm26YRAnKnAJ9P6pKTul4lOeiRlwvQTD+yFN7+sQCgkHy3 MCHDe/jS3FvP/Qy50PS+tQY= =uCn1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Nov 10 17:42:27 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Fwd: Invitation: 2004 SAGE-VIC IT Symposium Message-ID: <8ADDAD32-13D7-11D8-A1AA-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi ho, This fits in very nicely with the recent ideas on the list and YAPC::Australia. We will include this in our discussions tomorrow night. Scott Begin forwarded message: > From: chris@myinternet.com.au > Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:26:31 Australia/Melbourne > To: scottp@dd.com.au > Subject: Invitation: 2004 SAGE-VIC IT Symposium > Reply-To: chris@myinternet.com.au > > Dear Scott, > > I am writing to inform yourself and the members of Melbourne Perl > Mongers that SAGE-VIC will be holding a one day symposium in March > 2004, in Melbourne. > > It is our hope that any of your members whose roles crossover with > Systems Administration, be advised of our symposium, in case they are > interested in attending. > > Furthermore we would like to invite any of your members interested in > presenting to contact the SAGE-VIC conference committee at > confvic@sage-au.org.au, as we believe that there are areas of common > interest between our two groups. > > This is a preliminary outline, as further details are arranged, I will > pass the updated information on to you. > > If you have any queries please feel free to contact me. > > Have a good day! > > Regards, > Chris. > > > > --- > Call for Papers > > 2004 SAGE-VIC IT Symposium > > > Friday 12th March 2004 > Hotel Grand Chancellor > 131 Lonsdale Street > Melbourne VIC 3000 > Australia > > The SAGE-VIC IT Symposium is a one day technical conference to be held > in Melbourne. The symposium offers an educational event for systems > administrators of all platforms and levels of experience. > > The Victorian chapter of the Systems Administrators Guild of Australia > (SAGE-AU) > will be hosting the symposium in March 2004. > > The symposium provides a forum for Systems Administrators, Systems > Managers, Network Administrators, Developers of Systems Administration > Software and Managers of such groups to meet and share their knowledge > and experiences. > > The 2004 SAGE-VIC IT Symposium is hereby calling for papers. Authors > are invite > d to submit abstracts on any and all topics related to system and > network admini > stration. > > Expressions of interest until Dec 8th 2003 > Abstracts and outline by Jan 12th 2004 > Draft Paper by Feb 16th 2004 > Final Paper by Mar 1st 2003 > > Authors will be notified of whether their submission has been accepted > or reject > ed. > > Acceptance > Authors whose submissions are accepted will be asked to provide a > presentation i > n some machine readable format which can be converted to HTML or > Powerpoint. A > formal paper is not required, but at a minimum the presentation will > be printed > in the conference proceedings. > > Note: > The outline should contain enough detail to allow the program > committee to make > a reasoned decision about the final presentation. > The abstract should include: > - Author Name(s) > - Postal Address > - Telephone Numbers > - Fax Number > - E-mail Address > > Speaker Incentives > Presenters are afforded free conference registration, travel, > accomodation for the symposium, if required. > > Contact: > confvic@sage-au.org.au > > > > --- > Chris Williams > SAGE-VIC - President > chris@myinternet.com.au > http://www.myinternet.com.au/ > > > > - -- Scott Penrose Open source developer http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Open sauce usually ends up never coming out (of the bottle). Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/sCJkDCFCcmAm26YRAm3sAJ4xgJG35EXcvl+uOfccCHRqTt/CygCgmGfA ghRHYNEcbmLJzMwcVhDaagM= =TgZt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pjf at perltraining.com.au Mon Nov 10 18:33:12 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Talks at PM Meetings In-Reply-To: <200311101140.hAABe3M21858@mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au> References: <200311101140.hAABe3M21858@mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20031111003312.GA18999@mukc.org.au> G'day Mongers, Sorry about being quiet on the list recently. I've been getting married, on honeymoon, or dealing with an extremely busy work calendar. On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 10:40:02PM +1100, rickmeasham@optusnet.com.au wrote: > Andrew's post this morning made me think ... maybe > we should offer some tutorial type talks on Perl-based > fundamentals. I think this happened a couple of times > in 2003? [snip] > I can think of a few topics, but I'm sure there's more: > 1. Database design, development and the DBI > 2. Object Orientation > 3. Writing modules (incl. for CPAN) I really like this idea as well, and as such I'd like to float an idea with the group: Perl Training Australia (PTA) is in the process of developing a number of new courses in response to ongoing demand. In particular, we're trying to create materials to deal specifically with Security, Database Interaction, and Efficient Programming Techniques as they relate to Perl. Part of our quality assurance proceedures involves testing new materials on real people, to gain useful feedback and insight. Melb.PM would be an excellent audience, as you all have an interest in Perl, and many members will be similar to that of our target audience. I'd like to propose that on a regular basis (every month or two) a trainer from Perl Training Australia will present a chapter or two from one of the courses we're developing. We'll bring printed course materials which attendees can keep. In return, PTA would ask participants to fill out an anonymous questionaire asking for feedback and input. This will only take a few minutes of time, and will assist us in the course development process. I'm happy for these to start in 2004, and I'd propose the first session run on the 11th Feb. Each presentation will be about an hour in length, although this may vary depending upon the content. Feedback, comments, ideas and suggestions definitely appreciated. Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From rickm at printaform.com.au Mon Nov 10 19:14:36 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Unusing modules Message-ID: I have a CPAN module loaded (PDF::API2) that appears not to work too well creating multiple PDFs. It appears that if I could unload the module somehow, I'd be fine. I could trace through it all, but if anyone's ever looked at the innards of PDF they'd see that I'm screwed :) Is it possible to get perl to destroy the currently used module and then use it again? Yes, I'm hoping for some sort of hack and I know its not really the right way to do it, but I need something quick at the moment :) Cheers! Rick From simon at unisolve.com.au Mon Nov 10 19:44:27 2003 From: simon at unisolve.com.au (Simon Taylor) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Unusing modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311111244.27709.simon@unisolve.com.au> Hi Rick, > I have a CPAN module loaded (PDF::API2) that appears not to work too > well creating multiple PDFs. It appears that if I could unload the > module somehow, I'd be fine. I could trace through it all, but if > anyone's ever looked at the innards of PDF they'd see that I'm > screwed :) > > Is it possible to get perl to destroy the currently used module and > then use it again? > > Yes, I'm hoping for some sort of hack and I know its not really the > right way to do it, but I need something quick at the moment :) I *was* going to reply saying: "Does the 'no' command do what you want in this case?", but the following quick test didn't behave the way I thought it should: #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; use CGI; my $q1 = new CGI; print $q1->header(); no CGI; my $q2 = new CGI; print $q2->header(); because $q2 works quite happily.... I must be misunderstanding 'no'. Oops ;-) exit 0; Simon -- Unisolve Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia +61 3 9568 2005 From rickm at printaform.com.au Mon Nov 10 19:59:42 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Unusing modules In-Reply-To: <200311111244.27709.simon@unisolve.com.au> References: <200311111244.27709.simon@unisolve.com.au> Message-ID: >I *was* going to reply saying: > > "Does the 'no' command do what you want in this case?", > >but the following quick test didn't behave the way I thought it should: Similarly in my request I *was* going to say: "I tried the no command but it appears that it only works for pragmas" However, I think I've found the problem .. and it was me after all (always is isn't it?). What's worse is that the problem was a global variable I was using [blush] At 11:11 +1100 2003-11-10, Rick Measham wrote: >Global vars are a Very Bad Thing?. Teehee Thanks for your thoughts and time Cheers! Rick From brendon.oliver at redsheriff.com Mon Nov 10 20:02:28 2003 From: brendon.oliver at redsheriff.com (Brendon Oliver) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: Unusing modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311111302.28160.brendon.oliver@redsheriff.com> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:14 pm, Rick Measham wrote: > I have a CPAN module loaded (PDF::API2) that appears not to work too > well creating multiple PDFs. It appears that if I could unload the > module somehow, I'd be fine. I could trace through it all, but if > anyone's ever looked at the innards of PDF they'd see that I'm > screwed :) > > Is it possible to get perl to destroy the currently used module and > then use it again? > > Yes, I'm hoping for some sort of hack and I know its not really the > right way to do it, but I need something quick at the moment :) Not sure if this will work, but using the Symbol::Table module you can redefine symbol table contents. Perhaps you could redefine (to undef?) or delete the symbol table entries for the module in question, then reload it via "require"? Just guessing really... Cheers, - Brendon. -- R E D S H E R I F F Brendon Oliver [brendon.oliver@redsheriff.com] 96-98 Market Street +61 3 8606 4035 tel South Melbourne VIC 3025 +61 3 8606 4001 fax Australia +61 411 048 342 mob This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error please notify us immediately by return email or telephone +61 (3) 659 0432, then delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and many not necessarily reflect the views of Red Sheriff. --- Van Roy's Law: An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys. 12:58:34 up 20:37, 5 users, load average: 0.26, 0.47, 0.43 From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Nov 10 20:42:51 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: MEETING - Wednesday 12 - 6:30pm - YAPC::Australia Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello and welcome to the "official" inaugural meeting of the YAPC::Australia event and committee to be held first in Melbourne by Melbourne Perl Mongers. The meeting will hold some short talks followed by YAPC::Australia inaugural meeting. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to come. When 6:30 pm Wednesday 12 November 2003 (doors open from 6:00 - 6:45pm) Where myinternet Level 8, 14-20 Blackwood Street North Melbourne Short Talks Rick Measham - DateTime Scott Penrose - Inline::PERL (finally the power of Perl at our finger tips) (maybe Inline:: other) Reading Material http://www.jbisbee.com/yapc/ - Wikki on running a YAPC event Agenda / TODO List (send me any requests but also accepted on Wednesday) * Venue * Date * Committee Positions Available (eg: Chair, Accountant, ...) * Non-Committee positions (Web developer, ...) * ... (please email me any further agenda items) Scott Penrose - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/sEywDCFCcmAm26YRAjlRAKCmzLvHy0d+6IDuv+mfUdiH+UtFEACfWcok ulqONKt77DV5GFByIRwR8/4= =V6rq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 240442 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 23:02:26 2003 From: 240442 at yahoo.com (240442@yahoo.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:07 2004 Subject: 3D Studio Max 240442 Message-ID: <200311110505.hAB55cZ31187@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031110/8d6c3bb7/attachment.htm From a6hpkfcap at eudoramail.com Tue Nov 11 03:25:46 2003 From: a6hpkfcap at eudoramail.com (Jerrod Spencer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: 75% off Life Insurance. otrbfbzzdq se Message-ID: <4u05e0$8$ok$$92zlt$3ve-wd@o9rn.0v0dak> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031111/dcd17ee9/attachment.htm From noralantz at honorabilis.plunders.com Tue Nov 11 03:57:46 2003 From: noralantz at honorabilis.plunders.com (Females Health Center) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Plump up your pout $24.76 Message-ID: <6vi6-j1-r$v$-6ly1835-1-1x4@1912spg> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031111/76e2998b/attachment.htm From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Nov 11 06:22:38 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Talks at PM Meetings In-Reply-To: <200311101140.hAABe3M21858@mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20031111122238.92402.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> rickmeasham@optusnet.com.au wrote: > Andrew's post this morning made me think ... maybe > we should offer some tutorial type talks on Perl-based > fundamentals. I think this happened a couple of times > in 2003? > > Maybe plan and advertise an evening on four topics > for 2004. One each quarter. Promote it heavily and > invite as many people as possible. > > I can think of a few topics, but I'm sure there's more: > 1. Database design, development and the DBI > 2. Object Orientation > 3. Writing modules (incl. for CPAN) A talk on the new phalanx project might be interesting: http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/ If I was in Melbourne, I would happily volunteer. :-) You never know, it might even inspire Melb.PM to "adopt" a module from the CPAN top 100 (as Ottawa.pm recently did). /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From pjf at perltraining.com.au Tue Nov 11 20:08:40 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Melb.PM book offer Message-ID: <20031112020840.GA3835@mukc.org.au> G'day Everyone, My visit to Melb.PM tonight will unfortunately be much shorter than I would like, as I have preparations to finish for a number of courses that Perl Training Australia will be running over the next month. However, I will be able to give a few words on a book offer that I hope Perl Training Australia will be able to offer to Melb.PM members starting in 2004. While I've still got a few particulars to check, the short of it is that we should be able to provide books (including O'Reilly and Manning) to Melb.PM members at a lovely 20% discount off the RRP. More details on the deal tonight. I look forward to seeing you all there! Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From pjf at perltraining.com.au Wed Nov 12 05:06:21 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC Message-ID: <20031112110621.GA30968@mukc.org.au> G'day everyone, Just wanted to dump a few YAPC thoughts to the list, especially regarding Scotty's question of PTA being 'the company' for YAPC[1]. I wouldn't want PTA to 'run' YAPC, because I believe it would be too messy. It makes it harder to separate the accounting for PTA and YAPC. It brings up a number of problems with community versus commercial interests. There's also a big fat question of liability. In short, as a director, I'm personally liable if things go bad. That makes me feel uneasy, even with public liability insurance. I would propose that YAPC would be better served by starting and Incorporated, not-for-profit or similar entity, and that be the vehicle to actually run the conference. This is more legwork, but it's *much* cleaner in the long run. Having said all that, I'm very happy for PTA to help out (in principle) with a number of things. I am happy for PTA to assist and/or handle bookings and collection of money. I'm happy for PTA to run tutorials as part of the conference to help fund proceedings. I'm sure there are other things I'm happy with that I haven't thought of yet. One thing to remember is that PTA is a commercial entity, so there will be an expectation for 'return on investment', or at least to break even on real and opportunity costs. That return on investment may not be monetary -- being known and admired by thousands of Perl programmers and computer professionals definitely has value. PTA staff members may also choose to also volunteer their own personal time to help YAPC. Having said all that, I'm likely to be very quiet for about a month due to an incredibly busy end-of-year timetable. All the very best, Paul [1] Currently PTA is not technically a company, but that should change soon. -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From stas at stason.org Wed Nov 12 17:27:18 2003 From: stas at stason.org (Stas Bekman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Unusing modules In-Reply-To: <200311111302.28160.brendon.oliver@redsheriff.com> References: <200311111302.28160.brendon.oliver@redsheriff.com> Message-ID: <3FB2C1D6.10908@stason.org> Brendon Oliver wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:14 pm, Rick Measham wrote: > >>I have a CPAN module loaded (PDF::API2) that appears not to work too >>well creating multiple PDFs. It appears that if I could unload the >>module somehow, I'd be fine. I could trace through it all, but if >>anyone's ever looked at the innards of PDF they'd see that I'm >>screwed :) >> >>Is it possible to get perl to destroy the currently used module and >>then use it again? >> >>Yes, I'm hoping for some sort of hack and I know its not really the >>right way to do it, but I need something quick at the moment :) > > > Not sure if this will work, but using the Symbol::Table module you can > redefine symbol table contents. Perhaps you could redefine (to undef?) or > delete the symbol table entries for the module in question, then reload it > via "require"? Look at Apache::PerlRun in the modperl distro, that's exactly what it does. __________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com From scottp at dd.com.au Wed Nov 12 21:24:16 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: <20031112110621.GA30968@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003, at 22:06 Australia/Melbourne, Paul Fenwick wrote: > G'day everyone, > > Just wanted to dump a few YAPC thoughts to the list, > especially regarding Scotty's question of PTA being 'the company' > for YAPC[1]. > > I wouldn't want PTA to 'run' YAPC, because I believe it > would be too messy. It makes it harder to separate the accounting for Neither would I - that was not my question :-) > PTA and YAPC. It brings up a number of problems with community > versus commercial interests. There's also a big fat question of > liability. In short, as a director, I'm personally liable if > things go bad. That makes me feel uneasy, even with public > liability insurance. It is a shame you either didn't hang round or wait on this one - the idea was only for bank accounts, which doesn't make you liable etc, but the whole idea was dismissed immediately after it was suggested. > I would propose that YAPC would be better served by starting > and Incorporated, not-for-profit or similar entity, and that be the > vehicle to actually run the conference. This is more legwork, but > it's *much* cleaner in the long run. Actually we already have a better idea that is in train. > Having said all that, I'm very happy for PTA to help out > (in principle) with a number of things. I am happy for PTA to > assist and/or handle bookings and collection of money. I'm happy Which was all I was asking about :-) > for PTA to run tutorials as part of the conference to help fund > proceedings. I'm sure there are other things I'm happy with > that I haven't thought of yet. > > One thing to remember is that PTA is a commercial entity, > so there will be an expectation for 'return on investment', or > at least to break even on real and opportunity costs. That Hmm... This is probably then of no interest to a YAPC event. YAPC is not for profit so what it will be looking for is sponsorship and free talks. Tutorials may be paid for but no where near the money you normally would look for. The only conference where you would would expect to actually get reasonable pay would be the O'Reilly Perl Conference - and even then it is really only covering costs of the conference, accommodations and flights. Once we are settled with numbers and money I will come back to you for ideas for talks and sponsorship. One thing to note - My expectation for PTA involvement would be one of either/both free or actually giving some money to YAPC event, but remember that the return on investment will be the fact that you get lots of free advertising and be well known with the people that come to the event. > return on investment may not be monetary -- being known and admired > by thousands of Perl programmers and computer professionals definitely > has value. PTA staff members may also choose to also volunteer their > own personal time to help YAPC. > > Having said all that, I'm likely to be very quiet for about > a month due to an incredibly busy end-of-year timetable. No problem. It will probably take us that long to organise location and date - once those two items are done we will be in full swing to organise all the funding, sponsorship etc and most importantly - promotion. Scott > All the very best, > > Paul > > [1] Currently PTA is not technically a company, but that should > change soon. > > -- > Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ > Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 > Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 > > > - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/svljDCFCcmAm26YRAuxdAJ9I2AfPHs2qYbE1mLQoigpMBc3niQCghjKJ wF9ODxpO5SeRmL8570jktyo= =5jFR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gabor at perl.org.il Thu Nov 13 03:53:49 2003 From: gabor at perl.org.il (Gabor Szabo) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott and other YAPC::AU organizer, I am from Israel currently wire-taping your mailing list. Don't be surprised ;-) I'd like to add my 2c to the YAPC::AU discussion in that I am writing an application to manage YAPC::Israel which will take place in February 2004. I'd be glad if you also used the same software for managing registration and all the other tasks around. You can pick up the latest release from http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2004/download/ and then you can send me patches or requirements you think you might need. BTW when is the planned date for your conference ? regards Gabor From pjf at perltraining.com.au Thu Nov 13 04:35:18 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: References: <20031112110621.GA30968@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: <20031113103518.GA5150@mukc.org.au> G'day Scotty / Everyone, On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:24:16PM +1100, Scott Penrose wrote: > > One thing to remember is that PTA is a commercial entity, > >so there will be an expectation for 'return on investment', or > >at least to break even on real and opportunity costs. That > > Hmm... This is probably then of no interest to a YAPC event. > > YAPC is not for profit so what it will be looking for is sponsorship > and free talks. I want to make a clarification here, because I know there's a possibility that my statement may have been taken the wrong way. So, for the record, it's neither my expectation nor my desire that PTA profit from YAPC at YAPC's expense. We don't expect to make *money* from courses/speaking/etc that we provide. The primary benefits are exactly what Scott has identified -- publicity, reputation and good will. :) Both myself personally and PTA are quite excited by the prospect of a YAPC::AU, and are definitely eager to help. I can certainly help in the immediate term by providing housing for mailing lists and archiving (if we want a separate YAPC::AU organisation list), and a wiki if people want a place to write comments/ideas/minutes/ progress/etc. On that note, does anyone have any records/wikis/etc (however brief) of what I missed after I had to leave last night? I know that dates and audiences were being discussed, were there any conclusions there? Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Thu Nov 13 06:48:55 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031113124856.50158.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Gabor Szabo wrote: > Hi Scott and other YAPC::AU organizer, > > I am from Israel currently wire-taping your mailing list. > Don't be surprised ;-) Hi Gabor! I'm listening in from Sydney, agog at the audacious YAPC::AU master plan being hatched by Melb.pm, so please keep me informed so I can let (the currently resting) Sydney.pm know all about it. I wonder if "Spoon" is listening in. ;-) /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 13 15:49:14 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <38DB9616-1623-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, Nov 13, 2003, at 20:53 Australia/Melbourne, Gabor Szabo wrote: > > Hi Scott and other YAPC::AU organizer, > > I am from Israel currently wire-taping your mailing list. > Don't be surprised ;-) > > I'd like to add my 2c to the YAPC::AU discussion in that I am > writing an application to manage YAPC::Israel which will take > place in February 2004. > I'd be glad if you also used the same software for managing > registration and all the other tasks around. We would love to ! Sounds great. > You can pick up the latest release from > http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2004/download/ > > and then you can send me patches or requirements you think you might > need. > > BTW when is the planned date for your conference ? > > regards > Gabor At this stage we are thinking either Nov 2004 or early 2005. that is the one big item we are going to solve before wide scale announcements. Scott - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/s/xfDCFCcmAm26YRApQcAKCXc2+/pI9boC8+BNa6JIxzFGR3uwCglqRb V5AYXP1cI/LVbiHOi8g2dWo= =bOyl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 13 15:52:29 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: <20031113103518.GA5150@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, Nov 13, 2003, at 21:35 Australia/Melbourne, Paul Fenwick wrote: > G'day Scotty / Everyone, > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:24:16PM +1100, Scott Penrose wrote: > >>> One thing to remember is that PTA is a commercial entity, >>> so there will be an expectation for 'return on investment', or >>> at least to break even on real and opportunity costs. That >> >> Hmm... This is probably then of no interest to a YAPC event. >> >> YAPC is not for profit so what it will be looking for is sponsorship >> and free talks. > > I want to make a clarification here, because I know there's a > possibility that my statement may have been taken the wrong way. So, > for the record, it's neither my expectation nor my desire that PTA > profit from YAPC at YAPC's expense. We don't expect to make *money* > from courses/speaking/etc that we provide. The primary benefits are > exactly what Scott has identified -- publicity, reputation and good > will. :) Great :-) Sorry if I misunderstood your last message. > Both myself personally and PTA are quite excited by the prospect > of a YAPC::AU, and are definitely eager to help. I can certainly > help in the immediate term by providing housing for mailing lists > and archiving (if we want a separate YAPC::AU organisation list), > and a wiki if people want a place to write comments/ideas/minutes/ > progress/etc. Great - the excitement is definitely contagious :-) > On that note, does anyone have any records/wikis/etc (however brief) > of what I missed after I had to leave last night? I know that dates > and audiences were being discussed, were there any conclusions there? I am putting it together this weekend. I was going to use the YAPC wiki but it doesn't seem appropriate. Anyone want to point me to a a really simple to install / setup wiki so I can create one on our server please ? Needs to be perl, simple to install (I have no root access to the box) - preferably very few or no extra special perl modules etc. Scott - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/s/0hDCFCcmAm26YRAlStAKCnqiNs5qs+Y9LzT9sWhy5a6raNcgCcDMmK OLR9t6g+wQM9OwwBtOAbFpg= =3yOd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 13 15:56:02 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <20031113124856.50158.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2C0705EA-1624-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Andrew, We are not quite ready (almost) to tell everyone and start getting the other groups involved. It is definitely not our intention to hide this - we have only had our meeting on Wednesday :-) Would you (or someone else) in Sydney be a good person to start talking with about our plans ? (Who is Spoon?) Anyway - I will make an official announcement next week to be published to all the Australian lists. Scott On Thursday, Nov 13, 2003, at 23:48 Australia/Melbourne, Andrew Savige wrote: > Gabor Szabo wrote: >> Hi Scott and other YAPC::AU organizer, >> >> I am from Israel currently wire-taping your mailing list. >> Don't be surprised ;-) > > Hi Gabor! I'm listening in from Sydney, agog at the audacious YAPC::AU > master plan being hatched by Melb.pm, so please keep me informed so > I can let (the currently resting) Sydney.pm know all about it. > > I wonder if "Spoon" is listening in. ;-) > > /-\ > > > http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals > New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. > > > - -- Scott Penrose Welcome to the Digital Dimension http://www.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Contents of this mail and signature are bound to change randomly. Whilst every attempt has been made to control said randomness, the author wishes to remain blameless for the number of eggs that damn chicken laid. Oh and I don't want to hear about butterflies either. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/s/31DCFCcmAm26YRArhoAKCqNiBNaFRlj10tIQq+gO2QpClFwQCfUYpZ /SeWEtcd6OpsZMfLHs2ECrE= =To96 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pjf at perltraining.com.au Thu Nov 13 16:02:21 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: References: <20031113103518.GA5150@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: <20031113220221.GC6631@mukc.org.au> G'day Scotty/All, On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:52:29AM +1100, Scott Penrose wrote: > I am putting it together this weekend. I was going to use the YAPC wiki > but it doesn't seem appropriate. > > Anyone want to point me to a a really simple to install / setup wiki so > I can create one on our server please ? Needs to be perl, simple to > install (I have no root access to the box) - preferably very few or no > extra special perl modules etc. I've found the simplest wiki to install and get running in a short period of time is phpwiki. As you can guess from its name, it's not written in Perl, but it is extremely lightweight in requirements. It will happily run with a Berkley DB backend, so lack of a RDBMS is not an issue. I've got a couple of phpwikis hosted on one of my own machines, so if you want I can do a setup in very little time at all. The only problem I've had with phpwiki has been authentication, which is painful to get running unless you're using IMAP authentication, basic auth, or none. Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Nov 13 16:04:48 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 08:52 +1100 2003-11-14, Scott Penrose wrote: >Anyone want to point me to a a really simple to install / setup wiki >so I can create one on our server please ? Needs to be perl, simple >to install (I have no root access to the box) - preferably very few >or no extra special perl modules etc. Scott/Rodd: When is the source for YaCMaS going to be available? Seems to me that it would be best if we could put a Wiki into YaCMaS. Once I see source code I can take a look at putting one in. They're fairly easy to do, once user access is controlled. YaCMaS already takes care of that. Cheers! Rick From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 13 16:14:44 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 YaCMaS is on the mongers site and I can send you a copy directly. I can't put it up yet since that is really for Rodd to do However - like you said it is easy to do a Wiki We have used in internal code: CGI::Wiki and Text::WikiFormat Very cool Scott On Friday, Nov 14, 2003, at 09:04 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham wrote: > At 08:52 +1100 2003-11-14, Scott Penrose wrote: >> Anyone want to point me to a a really simple to install / setup wiki >> so I can create one on our server please ? Needs to be perl, simple >> to install (I have no root access to the box) - preferably very few >> or no extra special perl modules etc. > > Scott/Rodd: When is the source for YaCMaS going to be available? Seems > to me that it would be best if we could put a Wiki into YaCMaS. Once I > see source code I can take a look at putting one in. They're fairly > easy to do, once user access is controlled. YaCMaS already takes care > of that. > > Cheers! > Rick > > > > - -- Scott Penrose Open source developer http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Open sauce usually ends up never coming out (of the bottle). Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/tAJXDCFCcmAm26YRAhzUAJ9SDv7MZ+j3UrryU8aqSZ8ykAdiFQCfZmZh PENFpQO1+DhnqKR5OMstcwk= =T+pV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Nov 13 16:20:48 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Website Meeting Write-up Message-ID: I'm recusing myself from writing up this weeks meeting for conflict-of-interest reasons :) Could someone else with access write it up, or if you have no access, send me a writeup and I'll post it. I could also post the slides to the site, but a link to the FAQ at http://datetime.perl.org would probably be more useful. Cheers! Rick From gustaf at cmetech.com.au Thu Nov 13 17:11:41 2003 From: gustaf at cmetech.com.au (gU5t4F) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <2C0705EA-1624-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> References: <20031113124856.50158.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> <2C0705EA-1624-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <20031113231141.GA21257@cmetech.com.au> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:56:02AM +1100, Scott Penrose wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > Would you (or someone else) in Sydney be a good person to start talking > with about our plans ? (Who is Spoon?) don'tcha know - there is no spoon! L8rz, Foobard - Jester from the Court of Chaos From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Nov 13 20:25:47 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Fwd: [osv-list] Launch of YaCMaS! (Finally) Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Begin forwarded message: > From: Rodd Clarkson > Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 13:10:26 Australia/Melbourne > To: List - Open Source Victoria > Subject: [osv-list] Launch of YaCMaS! (Finally) > Reply-To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au > > Hey all, > > I finally got of my lazy bum and got the source code for YaCMaS on the > site. > > see: http://www.yacmas.com/index.cgi?tid=21 > > Yay. Much celebration. > > It's worth noting that while Scott has been using the source code for a > couple of months I haven't received any code form him, so first > contribution dibs are still up for grabs. > > Also, note that the source code on the site is not the same as the > source code for either www.osv.org.au or www.yacmas.com. Both are > earlier version. (Oh the irony). > > > Rodd > _______________________________________________ > osv-list mailing list > osv-list@lists.osv.org.au > http://www.osv.org.au/ > > > - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/tD0uDCFCcmAm26YRAqFjAKCXwwLKG+os20s3cWOqUcFe/F60AgCgh8JE wpejUHX6kval9VZLZUpOqrg= =/3yT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 14 02:14:47 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <2C0705EA-1624-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <20031114081447.90360.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Penrose wrote: > Would you (or someone else) in Sydney be a good person to start talking > with about our plans ? (Who is Spoon?) Since he has not chimed in, I guess he is not listening. ;-) http://iain.truskett.id.au/ http://www.kwiki.org/ http://search.cpan.org/~spoon/ http://use.perl.org/~koschei/journal I have never met him but I think he lives in Adelaide. He is very active in the Perl community and has good experience with Perl Wikis (see his http://www.kwiki.org above) and many other WWW things. /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 14 02:21:34 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: PTA and YAPC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031114082134.75500.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Penrose wrote: > However - like you said it is easy to do a Wiki > > We have used in internal code: CGI::Wiki and Text::WikiFormat If you want to do it in Perl, see Ingy's: http://search.cpan.org/dist/CGI-Kwiki/ http://www.kwiki.org/ which is very popular, especially in Portland Oregon. /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 14 02:26:28 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <20031114081447.90360.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031114082628.32090.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> /-\ blundered: > I have never met him but I think he lives in Adelaide. He is very > active in the Perl community and has good experience with Perl Wikis > (see his http://www.kwiki.org above) and many other WWW things. http://www.kwiki.org was created by Brian Ingerson, not Spoon. Spoon used it to create http://iain.truskett.id.au/. /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 14 21:14:00 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <2C0705EA-1624-11D8-8BC6-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <20031115031401.41370.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Penrose wrote:- > We are not quite ready (almost) to tell everyone and start getting the > other groups involved. > It is definitely not our intention to hide this - we have only had our > meeting on Wednesday :-) > > Would you (or someone else) in Sydney be a good person to start talking > with about our plans ? I think Sydney.pm leader Steven Steneker and me would both like to be kept informed -- though it is early days and unclear how we can best help you with organising this. Anyway, the spirit is willing. :-) Just a couple of random thoughts: 1) Instead of YAPC::Australia was calling it YAPC::Oceania discussed? After all, it was YAPC::Europe in Paris, not YAPC::France. OTOH, we had YAPC::Israel and YAPC::Canada. I could ask a NZ Perl hacker friend (Jas Nagra) but apart from that I have no idea if the Kiwis would be interested. 2) A bit of trivia. The recent YAPC::Europe was organised by Paris.pm. The Paris.pm leader, grinder (aka David Landgren), is an Aussie: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DavidLandgren as is Darobin (Robin Berjon), another prominent Paris.pm'er. Not sure, but I think the main YAPC::Europe organiser was BooK. We may get some good and fresh advice from them. I've had a little bit of contact with all three in the past and have found them to very helpful and friendly. /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From gabor at perl.org.il Fri Nov 14 23:44:28 2003 From: gabor at perl.org.il (Gabor Szabo) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <20031115031401.41370.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031115031401.41370.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, [iso-8859-1] Andrew Savige wrote: > 1) Instead of YAPC::Australia was calling it YAPC::Oceania discussed? > After all, it was YAPC::Europe in Paris, not YAPC::France. > OTOH, we had YAPC::Israel and YAPC::Canada. I could ask a NZ Perl > hacker friend (Jas Nagra) but apart from that I have no idea if > the Kiwis would be interested. We will do YAPC::MiddleEast once it is reasonable to expect to see visitors from other ME countries. (Actually I asked brian d foy if he can come. You know he is right now on a long term visit in another ME country). > > 2) > We may get some good and fresh advice from them. I've had a > little bit of contact with all three in the past and have found > them to very helpful and friendly. I am sure the various YAPC::EU and YAPC::NA organizers will have a lot to add to it especially because for them these are once-only events. You might also ask the experience of the people in the German Perl Workshop http://www.perlworkshop.de/ They have been doing it for 5 years now. There was also a P3 conference in Taiwan (Perl/Python/PHP) if I am not mistaken. They might be even potential visitors to your conference. In the meantime you can take a look at what I wrote about our experience with the previous conference: http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2003/retrospective.html Oh and BTW if you happen to be in our area in February 2004, we would be happy to see any of you on our conference: YAPC::Israel::2004 http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2004/ regards Gabor From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Sat Nov 15 00:53:51 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031115065351.82263.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Gabor Szabo wrote: > Actually I asked brian d foy if he can come. You know he is right now > on a long term visit in another ME country. See http://use.perl.org/~brian_d_foy/journal/ for more details on what brian is up to. > In the meantime you can take a look at what I wrote about our experience > with the previous conference: > http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2003/retrospective.html Thanks Gabor. I could not find a similar retrospective for YAPC:EU but BooK did write an informal journal about his experiences: http://use.perl.org/~BooK/journal The first challenge for YAPC::AU is surely to find a more garish colour for their web site than the pink chosen by Paris.pm. :-) http://yapc.mongueurs.net/yapc/static/index.html This pink business was partly in response to an obsession with Orange at London.pm and partly because of the "Gay Paris" theme for the conference. I wonder what theme we could use for Melbourne? ("gay" being more appropriate for Sydney, I think). /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From simon at unisolve.com.au Sat Nov 15 03:35:02 2003 From: simon at unisolve.com.au (Simon Taylor) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <20031115065351.82263.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031115065351.82263.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200311152035.02837.simon@unisolve.com.au> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 05:53 pm, Andrew Savige wrote: > The first challenge for YAPC::AU is surely to find a more garish colour > for their web site than the pink chosen by Paris.pm. :-) > http://yapc.mongueurs.net/yapc/static/index.html > This pink business was partly in response to an obsession with Orange > at London.pm and partly because of the "Gay Paris" theme for the > conference. I wonder what theme we could use for Melbourne? > ("gay" being more appropriate for Sydney, I think). In terms of colour, gray might be appropriate ;-( Or musically perhaps Vivaldi's "Four Seasons". (This is a fairly volatile city as far as the weather goes....) Regards, Simon Taylor From snjqk at msrr.net Fri Nov 14 23:15:04 2003 From: snjqk at msrr.net (=?Big5?B?qV+pXw==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?p0HAs7jTrN2kQKRVqrq69K+4fn5+?= Message-ID: <20031115112352.77059488AF@mail1.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031115/85701ce9/attachment.htm From mpm at bachelorguy.com Sat Nov 15 11:19:07 2003 From: mpm at bachelorguy.com (ADFH) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YaCMaS - Thought I'd give it a go, having some problems.. Message-ID: <20031116041907.1fdc18b3.mpm@bachelorguy.com> Using Apache-SSL on Debian.. Installed dependancies that weren't packaged for Debian in yacmas prog dir (above www) - that satisfied perl it seems however not when script run through apache.. Ie. ./index.cgi 2> ~/errors.txt gives: Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ../DefsContent.pm line 30. Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ../DefsContent.pm line 30. Use of uninitialized value in string at ../PartsPerms.pm line 445. Use of uninitialized value in string at ../PartsPerms.pm line 446. Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ../MainPage.pm line 185. Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ../MainPage.pm line 185. Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at ../PartsContent.pm line 589. ... a whole heap of similar stuff here, but on diff lines of PartsContent.pm ... Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at ../PartsContent.pm line 640. ... however when the same index script run via Apache using SSL and suexec wrapper.. /var/log/apache-ssl/error.log: Can't locate Defs.pm in @INC (@INC contains: .. . parts /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8.2 /usr/share/perl/5.8.2 /usr/local/lib/site_perl) at /home/yacmas/yacmas/www/index.cgi line 30. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /home/yacmas/yacmas/www/index.cgi line 30. [Sun Nov 16 04:05:59 2003] [error] [client xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx] Premature end of script headers: /home/yacmas/yacmas/www/index.cgi Why the diff error when run through apache vs. from CLI? Checked that apache was setting working directory to that of script, it was.. VWS specific config on apache: SSLEnable ServerAlias yacmas.* ServerName xxx DocumentRoot /home/yacmas/yacmas/www/ Options Indexes FollowSymLinks Includes ExecCGI AllowOverride FileInfo Limit Indexes AuthConfig From wqw at ms.ndu Fri Nov 14 19:43:59 2003 From: wqw at ms.ndu (=?Big5?B?pHCuUw==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?p0+kcKzdpaat8n5+frxLvEt+fg==?= Message-ID: <20031116104444.2E332981E9@mail3.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031115/5f9e29a5/attachment.htm From wayland at smartchat.net.au Mon Nov 17 07:06:06 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU In-Reply-To: <200311152035.02837.simon@unisolve.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Simon Taylor wrote: > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 05:53 pm, Andrew Savige wrote: > > > The first challenge for YAPC::AU is surely to find a more garish colour > > for their web site than the pink chosen by Paris.pm. :-) > > http://yapc.mongueurs.net/yapc/static/index.html > > This pink business was partly in response to an obsession with Orange > > at London.pm and partly because of the "Gay Paris" theme for the > > conference. I wonder what theme we could use for Melbourne? > > ("gay" being more appropriate for Sydney, I think). > > In terms of colour, gray might be appropriate ;-( > > Or musically perhaps Vivaldi's "Four Seasons". > > (This is a fairly volatile city as far as the weather goes....) Hmm. How about, instead of just gray, we have a background image and colour scheme involving grey (as you suggested), (dark) sky blue, yellow (sun), with texturing on the background image to suggest water running over it :). I guess we can all see why I'm not a graphic designer :). --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From gustaf at cmetech.com.au Mon Nov 17 21:01:29 2003 From: gustaf at cmetech.com.au (gU5t4F) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... Message-ID: <20031118030129.GB14798@cmetech.com.au> picture this - a transnational company with two software development departments, one a k-rad perl/*nix/postgres shop, and on the other side of the planet another that is a m$ vb/access/.net/oracle shop. now uber-management looks down from the stratosphere and muses who shall we get to build x, y and z? Now to give you a general picture i quote one of these pointy-hairs "I have never heard of perl. What is it?" *ugh!* i was wondering if anyone on this list has bookmarked any links to pages (explaining in ERF*) why perl/debian gnu linux/postgres are appropriate for enterprise computing? (i would look myself, but i'm in a suitable enterprise hurry) Thanx, Foobard - Jester from the Court of Chaos *ERF - Executive-Readable Format, that is - explained in terms micky mouse could understand but peppered with large dobs of management bullsh!t bingo flavour-of-the-month pseudo-tech babble. (i don't hold any disdain for management, no really! :^) From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Nov 17 21:24:20 2003 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <20031118030129.GB14798@cmetech.com.au> Message-ID: You may be best off looking for articles about how cool LAMP is (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl|PHP|Python). Or LAPP (if you swap Postgres for Mysql). You can find one here: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2001/01/25/lamp.html Good luck with it. Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +613 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From =?Big5?B?ZaTGpHWnQKvH?= at mail.pm.org Thu Nov 13 23:03:29 2003 From: =?Big5?B?ZaTGpHWnQKvH?= at mail.pm.org (=?Big5?B?ZaTGpHWnQKvH?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?tbm73a1uuvS49KZXs+aquqpCpM0=?= Message-ID: <200311180333.hAI3XNG06876@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031114/ba6d6dc2/attachment.htm From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Nov 18 02:27:41 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <20031118030129.GB14798@cmetech.com.au> Message-ID: <20031118082741.6455.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> gU5t4F wrote: > i was wondering if anyone on this list has bookmarked any > links to pages (explaining in ERF*) why perl/debian gnu > linux/postgres are appropriate for enterprise computing? You might find something useful here: http://perl.oreilly.com/news/success_stories.html http://perl.apache.org/docs/general/perl_myth/perl_myth.html http://perl.apache.org/docs/general/advocacy/advocacy.html Good luck with it. Unfortunately, Microsoft/Sun spend a lot of money on marketing, making it very hard to persuade managers. Suggest you highlight the excellent track record of your team using Perl and perhaps mention some big companies using Perl (e.g. Yahoo). If they complain about lack of support or quality with free tools, the web server survey here: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html may help dispel some myths in that it shows that Microsoft (IIS) can be beaten over a long period of time by a "free" product (Apache). /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From valriedegrazia at promulgo.ourholiday.com Tue Nov 18 03:43:08 2003 From: valriedegrazia at promulgo.ourholiday.com (Female Secrets) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Easy, pain free L|p enhancement $24.76 Message-ID: <7o$-$b4-4rkpglc@v1i8.qhrfp> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031118/af9942a9/attachment.htm From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Tue Nov 18 02:40:05 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: "18 Nov 2003 19:27:41 +1100." <"20031118082741.6455.qmail"@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430442.1069144805@silas.cc.monash.edu.au> Yahoo = PHP + perl (documented in conference slides) Amazon.com = perl/Apache (http://masonhq.com/resources/announce/?start=3) Google.com = Linux clusters (and lots of perl, IIRC) And locally, two organisations serving a significant part of the education market make almost exclusive use of perl in their delivery of their online services :-) I would be happy to talk management-speak to your manager if s/he wants to have a reference for perl used in the enterprise. N From biturbo22 at yahoo.com.br Tue Nov 18 17:24:01 2003 From: biturbo22 at yahoo.com.br (biturbo22) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: SAIBA COMO AUMENTAR O SEU P艿IS DE 2 a 7 cm EM 2 MESES Message-ID: <200311181924.hAIJOKS14653@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031118/d00e5463/attachment.htm From paul.bongiorno at hp.com Tue Nov 18 20:28:38 2003 From: paul.bongiorno at hp.com (Bongiorno, Paul) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... Message-ID: I don't know if there is a management speak module on the CPAN yet, But you could try this http://perlmonks.thepen.com/101816.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-melbourne-pm@pm.org [mailto:owner-melbourne-pm@pm.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Bailey Sent: Tuesday, 18 November 2003 7:40 PM To: Andrew Savige Cc: gU5t4F; melbourne-pm@pm.org Subject: Re: beating back the microsoftian hordes... Yahoo = PHP + perl (documented in conference slides) Amazon.com = perl/Apache (http://masonhq.com/resources/announce/?start=3) Google.com = Linux clusters (and lots of perl, IIRC) And locally, two organisations serving a significant part of the education market make almost exclusive use of perl in their delivery of their online services :-) I would be happy to talk management-speak to your manager if s/he wants to have a reference for perl used in the enterprise. N From peterm at zeta.orglau Tue Nov 18 23:16:27 2003 From: peterm at zeta.orglau (Peter G. Martin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031119161627.682065@corelli> On a slightly different tack, there was a pointer on (I think) either use.perl or perlmonks within the last ten days to two weeks to an article by a senior Microsoft Engineer saying Perl is lovely, Perl is nice, we don't want to do without Perl, it can be a valid alternative to VB stuff etc.... Sorry can't find it at present... but it may help beat back the fog generated by FUD etc. . -peterm From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 19 02:14:32 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <20031119161627.682065@corelli> Message-ID: <20031119081432.66444.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Peter G. Martin wrote: > On a slightly different tack, there was a pointer on (I think) either > use.perl or perlmonks within the last ten days to two weeks to an > article by a senior Microsoft Engineer saying Perl is lovely, Perl is > nice, we don't want to do without Perl, it can be a valid alternative > to VB stuff etc.... > Sorry can't find it at present... but it may help beat back the fog > generated by FUD etc. . > -peterm Here: http://nntp.x.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/507 an IBM engineer explains that: "Perl is *the* scripting language used for writing tests and product builds for MQ, the SSA disk group ... and the Java development group." And a rap from a surprising source, from the creator of Java himself, James Gosling: http://www.gotw.ca/publications/c_family_interview.htm: "I think the one that has the best broad coverage is Java, but I'm a really biased sample. If you're doing things that are heavily into string pattern- atching, Perl can be pretty nice. I guess actually those are the ones I use much at all these days." /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From goonmail at netspace.net.au Wed Nov 19 04:58:34 2003 From: goonmail at netspace.net.au (peter renshaw) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <20031119161627.682065@corelli> References: <20031119161627.682065@corelli> Message-ID: <3FBB4CDA.1050708@netspace.net.au> Peter G. Martin wrote: >senior Microsoft Engineer saying Perl is lovely, Perl is >nice, we don't want to do without Perl, it can be a valid alternative >to VB stuff etc.... > > but you still see stuff like this peddled ... " ... VBScript or Perl? The Windows Sys Admin's Scripting Dilemma ( http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a/4396 ) then in fine print at the bottom... "...if you want to get serious about automation in the Windows environment, I recommend using Perl because of its extensive module support and the overall robustness of the language...." Regs PR From goonmail at netspace.net.au Wed Nov 19 05:10:38 2003 From: goonmail at netspace.net.au (peter renshaw) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <20031119081432.66444.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031119081432.66444.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FBB4FAE.6040707@netspace.net.au> >And a rap from a surprising source, from the creator of Java himself, >James Gosling: > http://www.gotw.ca/publications/c_family_interview.htm: >"I think the one that has the best broad coverage is Java, but I'm a really >biased sample. If you're doing things that are heavily into string pattern- >atching, Perl can be pretty nice. I guess actually those are the ones I use >much at all these days." > > > was this before or after they (Gosling and Java engineers at Sun) tried some regular expression hacks in competition with some Perl hackers? http://use.perl.org/articles/02/09/16/1448246.shtml?tid=35 ahh enough advocacy for tonight. Regs PR From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 19 05:41:47 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: beating back the microsoftian hordes... In-Reply-To: <3FBB4FAE.6040707@netspace.net.au> Message-ID: <20031119114147.28230.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> peter renshaw wrote: > was this before or after they (Gosling and Java engineers at Sun) tried > some regular expression hacks in competition with some Perl hackers? > http://use.perl.org/articles/02/09/16/1448246.shtml?tid=35 A wise man once analysed this problem: #!/bin/sh egrep -v '\.(gif|GIF|jpg|JPG|css|CSS) HTTP|^192\.(9|18|29)\.' inf >e #!/bin/sh gawk '!/\.(gif|GIF|jpg|JPG|css|CSS) HTTP|^192\.(9|18|29)\./{print}' inf >a #!/bin/sh perl -ne'/^192\.(?:9|18|29)\./||/\.(?:gif|GIF|jpg|JPG|css|CSS) HTTP/ or print' inf >p Apart from being 100 times shorter than the given Java solution, all three solutions are *much* faster (alas, egrep beat Perl for both golf and speed on this one). But hey, the Java web site *still* claims that Java beat Perl on this problem, so that must be right. ;-) /-\ http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From joshua at roughtrade.net Wed Nov 19 23:24:59 2003 From: joshua at roughtrade.net (Joshua Goodall) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Job Reference Message-ID: <20031120052459.GC53769@roughtrade.net> Out of the blue I got a call from a recruiter looking for a senior Perl and PHP developer. I wasn't interested, but I did offer to pass the information on. The contact is Bill Whiteside at Command Recruitment, 03-9621-3399. Job is in an IT/internet environment (what isn't these days?) in one of the Bayside suburbs. That's all I know. J -- Joshua Goodall "tea makes itself" joshua@roughtrade.net - Ana Susanj From gabor at perl.org.il Fri Nov 21 14:51:56 2003 From: gabor at perl.org.il (Gabor Szabo) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: YAPC::AU and YAPCoM Message-ID: As I mentioned earlier I am writing an administration interface for YAPC::Israel that I'd be glad to share with you. I have setup a mailing list and a subversion repository for it. If any of you is interested in the project you are welcome to join the list and patch the script. http://www.pti.co.il/yapcom.html regards Gabor From aftonbeetz at ortus.manhandle.net Sat Nov 22 10:11:34 2003 From: aftonbeetz at ortus.manhandle.net (Female Network) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: L|ps SO Plump - your friends will be jealous! Message-ID: <9-o5$1vkn52yls$7e5-k5--y797@5cwv6.1wy> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031122/0c511ba5/attachment.htm From SWQDQ at MS.NET Sat Nov 22 07:12:29 2003 From: SWQDQ at MS.NET (=?Big5?B?qvyk5Q==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?tbmnQaq6uOquxiAgrN2s3adh?= Message-ID: <200311222002.hAMK24P25100@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031122/80a9d13b/attachment.htm From 3qjjhakst at yahoo.com Sat Nov 22 23:08:50 2003 From: 3qjjhakst at yahoo.com (Terence Stacy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Quality conferencing only 7.9 cents per min. aw Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031123/eed9f81e/attachment.htm From wayland at smartchat.net.au Mon Nov 24 04:53:09 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: L|ps SO Plump - your friends will be jealous! In-Reply-To: <9-o5$1vkn52yls$7e5-k5--y797@5cwv6.1wy> Message-ID: Lips must be LInux, Perl, and Spam (kinda like LAMP, but different)! And Plump is probably Perl, Linux, Unix, MySQL and PostgreSQL. Sounds like a nightmare with two DBMSs :). --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Nov 21 03:26:57 2003 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (=?Big5?B?ZaTGpHWnQKvH?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?tbm73a1uuvS49KZXs+aquqpCpM0=?= Message-ID: <20031125015359.EB608983FA@mail3.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031121/ddf839f1/attachment.htm From 46fezjtor at bigfoot.com Tue Nov 25 10:26:39 2003 From: 46fezjtor at bigfoot.com (Nola Ford) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: Investors Network Brings New Biz-opp i xdt desixjljs Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031125/d59408a9/attachment.htm From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Nov 25 00:35:26 2003 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (=?Big5?B?ZaTGpHWnQKvH?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?tbm73a1uuvS49KZXs+aquqpCpM0=?= Message-ID: <20031125230541.CE9BF981E9@mail3.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031125/1d9752ca/attachment.htm From gustaf at cmetech.com.au Tue Nov 25 19:22:50 2003 From: gustaf at cmetech.com.au (gU5t4F) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: internationalization in perl... Message-ID: <20031126012250.GA1585@cmetech.com.au> Heya d00dz and d00dettes, Thanx to every1 for the ammo re fending off the microsoftian hordes. Looks very much like we successfully fended them off! The only downside of this is that we have now been given a /very/ ambitious schedule of work to do. This includes the updating of all our products with internationalization. As usual the pointy hairs believe this to be a trivial undertaking and have allocated a preposterously small amount of time to complete the makeover. Naturally i rang the alarm bells and warned them that internationalization was a Napoleon/Hitler vs. Russia kind of undertaking. It appears on first glance that you could conquer it with a blitzkrieg over the summer, but 5 years later you are bogged down in Stalingrad in mid-winter and all your troops are freezing and starving to death and internationalization is still no nearer to being achieved! Anyway, for my audacity in pointing out the flaws in their grand plan they have asked me to write a document describing exactly what needs to be done and how long it will take. Is there any1 on this list with experience in the internationalization of large perl systems? What are the steps that need to be taken to implement internationalization? What are the differences between perl versions? (currently we are using perl 5.6) Are there any corners that can be cut by limiting the languages we support? (methinks not as i know we have to support chinese and japanese) Any pointers greatly accepted. Thanx, Foobard - Jester from the Court of Chaos From daniel at rimspace.net Tue Nov 25 19:58:41 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: internationalization in perl... In-Reply-To: <20031126012250.GA1585@cmetech.com.au> (gU5t4F's message of "Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:22:50 +1100") References: <20031126012250.GA1585@cmetech.com.au> Message-ID: <873ccboppq.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, gU5t4F wrote: [...] > Anyway, for my audacity in pointing out the flaws in their > grand plan they have asked me to write a document describing > exactly what needs to be done and how long it will take. That will teach you to use your initiative. :) [...] > What are the steps that need to be taken to implement > internationalization? First, decide if what you really need is localization or internationalization. Most people and places don't seem to consider the difference, and they *should* be tackled as distinct phases of the project, even if both are done at the same time. Also, consider your requirements: do you *really* need to support more than one language at once? Many projects and services don't actually need that, and it costs a *lot* less to get a "German only" version of a product than a "German and English" version... Then, select your internal coding system (for i18n) or translation tool (for l10n), and work out how that interfaces with your existing system. Then, if the product is deployed, work out how you can divide it into small segments where you can draw an "encoding boundary" around them. Change each small segment, using a translating wrapper around the outside, and get each part working before you pull the wrapper away and let the i18n-ed or l10n-ed bits talk directly. If it's not released, consider your timeline and see if you can release a version without doing the inter-op stuff. Inter-op with pre-i18n seems to double the time involved in a project, or more, in my experience. Finally, don't forget that for either i18n or l10n, you need to pay the piper ^W user interface designer to rework your layouts to fit non-English text nicely on screen. A number of scripts have expansion of between 25 and 50 percent over English to express the same concept nicely, though good translators can cut that. Oh, and for l10n, don't forget to budget for people who *can* speak the foreign language and the technical jargon, or for people to spend a *long* time working with a technical translator... [...] > Are there any corners that can be cut by limiting the > languages we support? (methinks not as i know we have to > support chinese and japanese) Why, yes. If you support only languages that work in the ISO-8859 space, and a few others like Vietnamese, life is simple. If you need to support the "Far East", life is hell. They bring in huge problems, not least of which is that your UI becomes insanely complex. It's usually less costly, as far as I know, to engineer a parallel line of Far East code than retrofit it into an existing 8-bit encoding world. Good luck. :) Daniel -- Our quarrel with the world is an echo of the endless quarrel proceeding within us. -- Eric Hoffer From stas at stason.org Wed Nov 26 13:57:41 2003 From: stas at stason.org (Stas Bekman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: internationalization in perl... In-Reply-To: <20031126012250.GA1585@cmetech.com.au> References: <20031126012250.GA1585@cmetech.com.au> Message-ID: <3FC505B5.4020301@stason.org> gU5t4F wrote: > What are the steps that need to be taken to implement > internationalization? The following presentation may answer some of your questions. http://stason.org/talks/singaporelinuxshow2001/multiling-handouts.pdf.gz This document is the summary of Eric Cholet and mine experience of developing http://jazzvalley.com/ back in year 2000. It doesn't delve into utf issues. __________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com From okpassbank at yahoo.com.tw Sat Nov 29 02:55:18 2003 From: okpassbank at yahoo.com.tw (okpassbank@yahoo.com.tw) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:08 2004 Subject: -輕輕鬆鬆向銀行貸款..額度高..速度快..信用不良可協助 Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20031129/6804b6c6/attachment.htm From dewdew at mf.net Fri Nov 28 22:17:24 2003 From: dewdew at mf.net (=?Big5?B?pHClqKRIICCq/LC2?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:10 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?pm6qQqTNqrogIK9kqKU=?= Message-ID: <20031201095558.C532B48A38@mail1.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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