[LA.pm] contrasting London and LA

[Adam Pisoni]

I gave up using knowledge of Perl as a filter for engineers a while  
ago.    I found that the vast majority of people responding to our  
add for Perl engineers did not have a firm enough grasp of OO  
architecture and design.   So now I basically use general engineering  
and OO proficiency as my main filter.  That said, people with a firm  
grasp of OO often use Perl as a way of filtering out us.   Obviously  
I have to tell them they will be learning and working with Perl.    
Its hard to find people who are passionate about OO, but are also  
interested in learning/using Perl.    The hardcore OO people moving  
away from Java or C++ tend to be moving towards languages like Python  
and Ruby.   I have no problem teaching someone Perl, but it takes far  
to long to turn a functional programmer into an OO programmer.

Thanks,
Adam


On Aug 15, 2006, at 12:37 PM, Todd Cranston-Cuebas wrote:

> Nicholas,
>
> As an organization, Ticketmaster has supported the growth of  
> engineers. We
> have a number of positions where people who are not "full-fledged"  
> engineers
> can join the organization and get exposure to our development  
> teams, QA
> groups, operations teams, etc. For instance, we have roles in our
> application support group where you get a birds-eye view of the  
> systems and
> teams that come together to essentially become Ticketmaster.com. In  
> this
> role, the app support engineer can build their perl skills writing  
> utilities
> for their team while seeing how a very large, enterprise-wide  
> system works.
> A junior engineer has to be willing to spend some time in this role  
> to learn
> and grow and understand that they will not be heads down coding all  
> day.
> They will be learning and supporting a mission-critical application.
>
> On the other hand, we do also bring in very bright junior engineers  
> directly
> into our engineering teams. Typically, these associate-level  
> engineers are
> really quite exceptional in terms of their drive, ambition, love of  
> the
> technology as a whole, etc., but clearly may lack real-world work
> experience, skills, and knowledge. Basically, I do my best to keep  
> my eyes
> out for talent that can be groomed into a solid engineer. Drive,  
> ambition,
> and a proven ability to "create" through either open-source  
> projects or even
> part-time employment during school, all help. In our case, being  
> solid in
> perl is really a major plus. I can't always make these roles  
> available, but
> we do our best to accommodate the available market (i.e., if  
> someone is
> available with these basic traits, we'll do our best to make a role
> available).
>
> Todd
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: losangeles-pm-bounces+tcc=ticketmaster.com at pm.org
>> [mailto:losangeles-pm-bounces+tcc=ticketmaster.com at pm.org] On
>> Behalf Of Nicholas Clark
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:46 AM
>> To: Duong Vu
>> Cc: losangeles-pm at pm.org
>> Subject: Re: [LA.pm] contrasting London and LA
>>
>> I read this:
>>
>>> On 8/15/06, Eric Gradman <ehgrad at yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> that he was learning Java.  I asked him why, and he
>> explained that
>>>> former colleagues at Idealab had complained that due to
>> the extreme
>>>> difficulty of finding competent Perl programmers, they were
>>>> increasingly starting new development projects in Java.  My jaw
>>>> dropped, and I spent the rest of the interview in shock.
>>
>> And was about to write this very reply:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:32:53AM -0700, Duong Vu wrote:
>>> One of the things I've observe in our industry, and not
>> just the Perl
>>> market, is that everyone wants seasoned veterans. No one
>> seems to be
>>> willing to hire junior anything in IT anymore.
>>>
>>> In order for there more competent Perl developers with experience,
>>> Perl companies need to be willing to hire and train young
>> undeveloped
>>> talents. Young kids out of college will commit themselves
>> to what ever
>>> pays the bills more often than what suites their personal
>> interests or
>>> likes. And very often, these kids won't know what they like yet.
>>> Java/.Net with its many more  jobs will be much more attractive to
>>> them.
>>>
>>> In order for there to be more Perl shops, there need to be
>> more Perl
>>> developers. And if we want more Perl developers, we need to
>> recruit,
>>> train, and give them enough experiences so they are desirable.
>>
>> (So now I'm guilty of the Usenet sin not trimming any of it)
>>
>> The only thing I can add is that nowhere I've worked has had
>> any sort of process of mentoring junior perl programmers into
>> competent, senior perl programmers. Every firm seems to
>> expect to hire senior people straight out, which isn't
>> sustainable, as it gives no consideration to who is going to
>> train the next iteration.
>>
>> This sort of naive policy *does* work with C, C++ or Java
>> programmers (for example, and for accountants, for that
>> matter), because there are degree courses churning them out,
>> and there are large consulting firms that recruit smart young
>> things straight out of university and indoctrinate them into
>> their way of doing things. Although based on a straw poll of
>> one at a previous job, whilst the C++ programmer we hired
>> ex-Logica was competent, he didn't have anywhere near the
>> breadth of knowledge that the self taught open source hacking
>> C++ programmer knew. So I'm not convinced that these mass
>> production factories are the answer either.
>>
>> So, next question, how many recruiters/hiring managers on
>> this list are looking to recruit smart juniors and mentor them up?
>>
>> Nicholas Clark
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>> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
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