From ask at develooper.com Thu Nov 13 02:57:21 2003 From: ask at develooper.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?=) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 Message-ID: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Hi everyone, Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm dinner. The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1]?in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure to let you know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or whatever (yes, that has happened before :-) ) - ask [1] http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From rspier at pobox.com Thu Nov 13 10:04:05 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: > The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1]?in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th > (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert As mentioned before, remember to bring something for brian d foy and co, founder of the perl mongers, somewhere in Iraq. -R From darkuncle at darkuncle.net Thu Nov 13 10:16:35 2003 From: darkuncle at darkuncle.net (Scott Francis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: <20031113161635.GR22798@darkuncle.net> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 12:57:21AM -0800, ask@develooper.com said: > Hi everyone, > > Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm dinner. > > The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1]?in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th > (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert > if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure to let you > know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or whatever > (yes, that has happened before :-) ) okay, I'm in on this one (not leaving town, going on vacation, etc.) -- Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net illum oportet crescere me autem minui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031113/9e8083e1/attachment.bin From metaperl at urth.org Thu Nov 13 10:32:30 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> I had to wipe my disk due to a virus, so I might have missed something. [1] Robert solicited proposals for a technical talk and I responded. What has become of this offer. There was some initial resistance by Ask on the grounds of difficulty finding a presentation forum. To this resistance two solutions were offered (1) a socio-technical talk by me and (2) a room at rent.com As far as I know, neither my talk nor the alternatives were rejected and it certainly was not put to public vote, which brings me to my second issue. [2] Is LA.pm a democratic organization? Do the members have any power/input into what happens where? As far as I can tell from this email, there was no process of discussion or generation of a general consensus on what happened when. [3] I have prepared the slides to my talk and am willing to rent a car if necessary to present them. Here are the completed slides: http://www.urth.org/~metaperl/domains/metaperl.com/talks/2003/november/TABLE_OF_CONTENTS.html And regarding sending things to bdfoy, what would be more gratifying than to see his module Tie::Cycle being put to good use and publicly presented? [4] I re-iterate my offer to give a socio-technical talk. That is, if you are going to meet in Silverlake, I can bring printouts of the slides based on the amount of reservations you receive and talk at the dinner table. Ask Bj?rn Hansen wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm dinner. > > The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1] in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th > (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert > if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure to let you > know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or whatever > (yes, that has happened before :-) ) > > > - ask > > [1] http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ > http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ > From darkuncle at darkuncle.net Thu Nov 13 10:53:57 2003 From: darkuncle at darkuncle.net (Scott Francis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> Message-ID: <20031113165357.GS22798@darkuncle.net> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 08:32:30AM -0800, metaperl@urth.org said: > I had to wipe my disk due to a virus, so I might have missed something. > > [1] Robert solicited proposals for a technical talk and I responded. > What has become of this offer. There was some initial resistance by Ask > on the grounds of difficulty finding a presentation forum. To this > resistance two solutions were offered (1) a socio-technical talk by me > and (2) a room at rent.com > > As far as I know, neither my talk nor the alternatives were rejected and > it certainly was not put to public vote, which brings me to my second issue. Not rejected - I would LOVE to hear somebody present a technical talk over some good Italian food (which is the venue for next Thursday). > [2] Is LA.pm a democratic organization? Do the members have any > power/input into what happens where? As far as I can tell from this > email, there was no process of discussion or generation of a general > consensus on what happened when. it's "whoever wants to do something, proposes it, and anybody who's available and willing shows up". It's just that usually Robert or Ask are the ones who get tired of doing nothing before the rest of us. :) Really, we end up being more like a BoF or social gathering with technical overtones than a technical conference that meets regularly (see http://www.uuasc.org for something with more regularity). This suits me, but as I said I'm delighted to listen to pretty much anyone hold forth on nearly any technical topic in most any venue (doing it over food is even better, IMO). > [3] I have prepared the slides to my talk and am willing to rent a car > if necessary to present them. Here are the completed slides: > > http://www.urth.org/~metaperl/domains/metaperl.com/talks/2003/november/TABLE_OF_CONTENTS.html If you're in the mid-Wilshire or Hollywood areas, I'd be happy to give you a lift. > And regarding sending things to bdfoy, what would be more gratifying > than to see his module Tie::Cycle being put to good use and publicly > presented? > > [4] I re-iterate my offer to give a socio-technical talk. That is, if > you are going to meet in Silverlake, I can bring printouts of the slides > based on the amount of reservations you receive and talk at the dinner > table. Absolutely - please do come and talk! I'm looking forward to it! If you are in the general vicinity of Hollywood and need a ride, please let me know and I can give you a lift. If you're coming from Burbank, well, we have some folks up that way too if memory serves. :) -- Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net illum oportet crescere me autem minui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031113/5aaa1fa3/attachment.bin From arkadiy at arkadiy.com Thu Nov 13 11:09:26 2003 From: arkadiy at arkadiy.com (Arkadiy) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: <3207.38.118.128.72.1068743366.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> Of course, I'll be there. > Hi everyone, > > Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm > dinner. > > The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1]?in Silverlake on > Thursday the 20th > (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email > me or Robert > if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure > to let you > know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or > whatever > (yes, that has happened before :-) ) > > > - ask > > [1] http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ > http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ > > -- > http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > From metaperl at urth.org Thu Nov 13 21:01:59 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <20031113165357.GS22798@darkuncle.net> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> <20031113165357.GS22798@darkuncle.net> Message-ID: <3FB445A7.4000804@urth.org> Scott Francis wrote: >On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 08:32:30AM -0800, metaperl@urth.org said: > > >>I had to wipe my disk due to a virus, so I might have missed something. >> >>[1] Robert solicited proposals for a technical talk and I responded. >>What has become of this offer. There was some initial resistance by Ask >>on the grounds of difficulty finding a presentation forum. To this >>resistance two solutions were offered (1) a socio-technical talk by me >>and (2) a room at rent.com >> >>As far as I know, neither my talk nor the alternatives were rejected and >>it certainly was not put to public vote, which brings me to my second issue. >> >> > >Not rejected - I would LOVE to hear somebody present a technical talk over >some good Italian food (which is the venue for next Thursday). > > > cool. >>[2] Is LA.pm a democratic organization? Do the members have any >>power/input into what happens where? As far as I can tell from this >>email, there was no process of discussion or generation of a general >>consensus on what happened when. >> >> > >it's "whoever wants to do something, proposes it, and anybody who's available >and willing shows up". It's just that usually Robert or Ask are the ones who >get tired of doing nothing before the rest of us. :) > >Really, we end up being more like a BoF or social gathering with technical >overtones than a technical conference that meets regularly (see >http://www.uuasc.org for something with more regularity). This suits me, but >as I said I'm delighted to listen to pretty much anyone hold forth on nearly >any technical topic in most any venue (doing it over food is even better, >IMO). > > > >>[3] I have prepared the slides to my talk and am willing to rent a car >>if necessary to present them. Here are the completed slides: >> >>http://www.urth.org/~metaperl/domains/metaperl.com/talks/2003/november/TABLE_OF_CONTENTS.html >> >> > >If you're in the mid-Wilshire or Hollywood areas, I'd be happy to give you a >lift. > > > yes, Koreatown. My address is 924 S. New Hampshire Ave Los Angeles, CA 90006 310-403-1987 http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=g9EA3ep_0TosN1xE6S5NHkwoy1ZX8kO73CrP1SA-&csz=90006&country=us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031113/d48be55d/attachment.htm From pete at peterbenjamin.com Fri Nov 14 00:46:15 2003 From: pete at peterbenjamin.com (Peter Benjamin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031113224431.056e5e30@peterbenjamin.com> Meetings are held when and where a member says it is going to happen. At least that is what I have observed. I think it is a good thing. We could have lots of meetings then. Post 2 weeks before the meeting to get more Mongers there. Generate some discussion. Make it sound attractive. Food does that. ;-) Pete At 08:32 AM 11/13/2003, Terrence Brannon wrote: >I had to wipe my disk due to a virus, so I might have missed something. > >[1] Robert solicited proposals for a technical talk and I responded. What has become of this offer. There was some initial resistance by Ask on the grounds of difficulty finding a presentation forum. To this resistance two solutions were offered (1) a socio-technical talk by me and (2) a room at rent.com > >As far as I know, neither my talk nor the alternatives were rejected and it certainly was not put to public vote, which brings me to my second issue. > >[2] Is LA.pm a democratic organization? Do the members have any power/input into what happens where? As far as I can tell from this email, there was no process of discussion or generation of a general consensus on what happened when. > >[3] I have prepared the slides to my talk and am willing to rent a car if necessary to present them. Here are the completed slides: > > >http://www.urth.org/~metaperl/domains/metaperl.com/talks/2003/november/TABLE_OF_CONTENTS.html > >And regarding sending things to bdfoy, what would be more gratifying than to see his module Tie::Cycle being put to good use and publicly presented? > >[4] I re-iterate my offer to give a socio-technical talk. That is, if you are going to meet in Silverlake, I can bring printouts of the slides based on the amount of reservations you receive and talk at the dinner table. > > >Ask Bj?rn Hansen wrote: > >>Hi everyone, >> >>Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm dinner. >> >>The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1] in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure to let you know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or whatever (yes, that has happened before :-) ) >> >> >> - ask >> >> [1] http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ >> http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Losangeles-pm mailing list >Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm Pete From angelgrl979 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 02:44:31 2003 From: angelgrl979 at yahoo.com (Angel Girl) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 Message-ID: <20031114084431.35732.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> mmm.. tiramisu! count me in. :o) hmm.. not entirely sure if capri is the most efficient place for a techtalk. seems a more casual, social place. perhaps it wouldn't hurt to maybe schedule a techtalk event (dinner or otherwise) once a month or two? would be more effective to gather both willing presenters and audiences, as well as appropriate location and resources. thoughts, anyone? :oP angel (aka. the chick at the back of the room) > >Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote: > > > >>Hi everyone, > >> > >>Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a > LA.pm dinner. > >> > >>The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1] in Silverlake > on Thursday the 20th (that's in a ~week) and stuff > us silly with food. Email me or Robert if you are > coming so we can make reservations and be sure to > let you know if we find out that the place isn't > open that day or whatever (yes, that has happened > before :-) ) > >> > >> > >> - ask > >> > >> [1] > http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ > >> > http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ ===== If I had a website, what would I do with it? http://www.mylifeonline.net :oP __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From ask at develooper.com Fri Nov 14 04:21:19 2003 From: ask at develooper.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?=) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> Message-ID: <49D5F36D-168C-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Hi, I think the misunderstanding is that you think LA.pm is much more organized than it is currently. :-) > Do the members have any power/input into what happens where? "members" have all the power and input; there are only members here. Nothing happens except when someone says "show up here", shows up and waits for others to show up as well. :-) I haven't been there, but from driving by and from the reviews I don't think the restaurant would be good for a talk. Actually, I don't think restaurants generally are good for it?! Maybe at a diner it'd work better. Some years ago(?) we had the occasional technical meetings Saturday afternoon in a conference room somewhere. How about someone organizing a "lightning talk" session at Rent.com with a handful or two of 5-15 minute talks? That'd be fun. - ask -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From arkadiy at arkadiy.com Fri Nov 14 11:22:02 2003 From: arkadiy at arkadiy.com (Arkadiy) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <20031114084431.35732.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> What kinds of things do we need to bring for soldier(s), again? What is he/they lacking? I want it to be thoughtful :) From rspier at pobox.com Fri Nov 14 16:17:37 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> References: <20031114084431.35732.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> Message-ID: At Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:22:02 -0800, Arkadiy wrote: > > What kinds of things do we need to bring for soldier(s), again? What is > he/they lacking? I want it to be thoughtful :) Here's what I wrote before: brian d foy, aka Perl Monger #1, (he was the founder), is a MP in the National Guard, or the US Army Reserve. (Not sure which one.) He's currently stationed "somewhere in Iraq" until April. I'd like to ask that whenever we hold our next event, everyone bring "something" for him. Suggestions include: books (fiction, non-fiction), dvd's, magazines, conference materials, anything from his Amazon wishlist http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/registry/1VGWQEYUDRN9V/, or a Sat phone and lots of minutes. (And no need to buy new things.. used is just fine.) I'll collect everything and ship it off to him. Arkadiy also "did some time", although he never got to leave the States. Please don't politicize this. Whether or not you (or I) approve of/believe in what's going on over there is irrelevant to this. This is about making a cool guy's time over there a little better. For more information on brian d foy, you can check out his use.perl journal: http://use.perl.org/~brian_d_foy/journal/ From rspier at pobox.com Fri Nov 14 22:02:45 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] FW: [pm_groups] YAPC::Israel::2004 - Call for Paper References: Message-ID: === Forwarded Message: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:04:54 +0200 (IST) From: Gabor Szabo Subject: [pm_groups] YAPC::Israel::2004 - Call for Paper Dear PM, I'd be glad if you forwarded this to your respective groups. On 26th of February, 2004 the Israeli Perl Mongers ( http://www.perl.org.il/ ) are going to have their second annual Perl conference YAPC::Israel::2004 ( http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2004/ ). We would be glad to see many visitors and speakers from overseas to make our conference even better than it was in 2003. We hope you'll want to participate in a Perl get together in the off season. The dead-line for talk proposals is very close. If you'd like to talk on the conference you have to submit the abstract by 30th November, 2003. See our web site for registration and for the proposal submission form. regards Gabor Szabo Perl in Israel http://www.perl.org.il/ === End of Forwarded Message From metaperl at urth.org Tue Nov 18 22:25:54 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> Message-ID: <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to make [2] confirmation that Scott Francis can haul me up thar and back. Over and out, Terrence "practicing for YAPC" Brannon I'm leaving for NYC on 12/7, so I would like this to be my going-away present. From rspier at pobox.com Tue Nov 18 22:42:22 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> Message-ID: At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:25:54 -0800, Terrence Brannon wrote: > For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need > [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to make Currently I have 8 people who have RSVPed. -R From arkadiy at arkadiy.com Tue Nov 18 23:45:00 2003 From: arkadiy at arkadiy.com (Arkadiy) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov><3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> Message-ID: <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> You got me? I am coming. > At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:25:54 -0800, > Terrence Brannon wrote: >> For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need >> [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to >> make > > Currently I have 8 people who have RSVPed. > > -R > > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > From jeff at yoak.com Tue Nov 18 23:52:05 2003 From: jeff at yoak.com (Jeff Yoak) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> Message-ID: <1069221123.8750.7.camel@jeffy.internal> I'm in for two! On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 21:45, Arkadiy wrote: > You got me? I am coming. > > > At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:25:54 -0800, > > Terrence Brannon wrote: > >> For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need > >> [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to > >> make > > > > Currently I have 8 people who have RSVPed. > > > > -R > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Losangeles-pm mailing list > > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm From rspier at pobox.com Wed Nov 19 00:10:08 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> Message-ID: Yup. Twice :) At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:45:00 -0600 (CST), Arkadiy wrote: > > You got me? I am coming. > > > At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:25:54 -0800, > > Terrence Brannon wrote: > >> For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need > >> [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to > >> make > > > > Currently I have 8 people who have RSVPed. > > > > -R > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Losangeles-pm mailing list > > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > > From rspier at pobox.com Wed Nov 19 00:15:32 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <1069221123.8750.7.camel@jeffy.internal> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> <1069221123.8750.7.camel@jeffy.internal> Message-ID: Yes you are! (Twice!) Does that mean we're up to 11? ;) -R At 18 Nov 2003 21:52:03 -0800, Jeff Yoak wrote: > > > I'm in for two! > > On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 21:45, Arkadiy wrote: > > You got me? I am coming. > > > > > At Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:25:54 -0800, > > > Terrence Brannon wrote: > > >> For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need > > >> [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to > > >> make > > > > > > Currently I have 8 people who have RSVPed. > > > > > > -R > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Losangeles-pm mailing list > > > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Losangeles-pm mailing list > > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm From metaperl at urth.org Wed Nov 19 03:59:11 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> <1069221123.8750.7.camel@jeffy.internal> Message-ID: <3FBB3EEF.1070805@urth.org> Robert Spier wrote: >Yes you are! (Twice!) > >Does that mean we're up to 11? ;) > > I just realized I haven't RSVP'ed. I plan to be there. Also, public transit is up, so getting there is no problem, but it may be late when the dinner ends. From darkuncle at darkuncle.net Wed Nov 19 09:36:27 2003 From: darkuncle at darkuncle.net (Scott Francis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> Message-ID: <20031119153627.GC22798@darkuncle.net> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:25:54PM -0800, metaperl@urth.org said: > For my socio-technical talk Thursday, I need > > [1] a count of the number of copies of the slides to make > [2] confirmation that Scott Francis can haul me up thar and back. roger that. -- Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net illum oportet crescere me autem minui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031119/ddbe5483/attachment.bin From darkuncle at darkuncle.net Wed Nov 19 09:37:36 2003 From: darkuncle at darkuncle.net (Scott Francis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FBB3EEF.1070805@urth.org> References: <001601c3aad3$d1943bc0$0100a8c0@asudarikov> <3FBAF0D2.7090708@urth.org> <3064.67.118.128.34.1069220700.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> <1069221123.8750.7.camel@jeffy.internal> <3FBB3EEF.1070805@urth.org> Message-ID: <20031119153736.GD22798@darkuncle.net> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 01:59:11AM -0800, metaperl@urth.org said: > Robert Spier wrote: > > >Yes you are! (Twice!) > > > >Does that mean we're up to 11? ;) > > I just realized I haven't RSVP'ed. I plan to be there. > > Also, public transit is up, so getting there is no problem, but it may > be late when the dinner ends. you still want a lift either direction? I can get you there and back, or just offer a lift home afterwards, or whatever is convenient. -- Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net illum oportet crescere me autem minui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031119/0ad2330c/attachment.bin From metaperl at urth.org Wed Nov 19 10:24:33 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <49D5F36D-168C-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> <3FB3B21E.8010500@urth.org> <49D5F36D-168C-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: <3FBB9941.10107@urth.org> > > I haven't been there, but from driving by and from the reviews I don't > think the restaurant would be good for a talk. Actually, I don't > think restaurants generally are good for it?! Maybe at a diner it'd > work better. I really need a yay or nay on this from those who will be coming on the 20th (by the way, what _time_ on the 20th?) [1] yay, come and bring copies of your talk for presentation [2] nay, thanks I'll pass. From angelgrl979 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 16:40:20 2003 From: angelgrl979 at yahoo.com (Angel Girl) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3FBB9941.10107@urth.org> Message-ID: <20031119224020.801.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> > I really need a yay or nay on this from those who > will be coming on the > 20th (by the way, what _time_ on the 20th?) > > [1] yay, come and bring copies of your talk for > presentation > [2] nay, thanks I'll pass. 2. :o) your presentation sounds like fun, but i'm not sure this place would be good for it. that and (call me fickle, but..) i tend to like my lecture/serious-learning time separate from my geek social hours. but "2" doesn't include an option to encourage you to come and hang out, even if you're not giving a presentation, so i'm changing my answer to "3": yay, come for dinner, but reschedule the talk for a better time/place. :oP angel ===== where nothing stays the same for longer than a minute. http://www.mylifeonline.net :o) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From darkuncle at darkuncle.net Wed Nov 19 16:59:16 2003 From: darkuncle at darkuncle.net (Scott Francis) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <20031119224020.801.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3FBB9941.10107@urth.org> <20031119224020.801.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031119225916.GH22798@darkuncle.net> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 02:40:20PM -0800, angelgrl979@yahoo.com said: [snip] > but "2" doesn't include an option to encourage you to > come and hang out, even if you're not giving a > presentation, so i'm changing my answer to "3": yay, > come for dinner, but reschedule the talk for a better > time/place. :oP tish tosh. Come for dinner and listen to the man talk about Perl. I fail to see a conflict here at all ... given the nature of the dinner participants, chances are we'd be talking about Perl even if there was no specific talk scheduled. :) -- Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net illum oportet crescere me autem minui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20031119/6de752b8/attachment.bin From arkadiy at arkadiy.com Wed Nov 19 19:03:48 2003 From: arkadiy at arkadiy.com (Arkadiy) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <20031119225916.GH22798@darkuncle.net> References: <3FBB9941.10107@urth.org><20031119224020.801.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20031119225916.GH22798@darkuncle.net> Message-ID: <3139.67.117.14.165.1069290228.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> Okay, the only thing missing is the time. What time? > On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 02:40:20PM -0800, > angelgrl979@yahoo.com said: > [snip] >> but "2" doesn't include an option to encourage you to >> come and hang out, even if you're not giving a >> presentation, so i'm changing my answer to "3": yay, >> come for dinner, but reschedule the talk for a better >> time/place. :oP > > tish tosh. Come for dinner and listen to the man talk > about Perl. I fail to > see a conflict here at all ... given the nature of the > dinner participants, > chances are we'd be talking about Perl even if there was > no specific talk > scheduled. :) > -- > Scott Francis || darkuncle (at) darkuncle (dot) net > illum oportet crescere me autem minui > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm > From ask at develooper.com Wed Nov 19 19:22:11 2003 From: ask at develooper.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?=) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <3139.67.117.14.165.1069290228.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> References: <3FBB9941.10107@urth.org><20031119224020.801.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20031119225916.GH22798@darkuncle.net> <3139.67.117.14.165.1069290228.squirrel@smtp.kungfudesign.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Arkadiy wrote: > Okay, the only thing missing is the time. What time? ~7.15. http://la.pm.org/ - ask -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From rspier at pobox.com Thu Nov 20 12:18:06 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: TODAY: Re: [LA.pm] dinner thursday 11/20 In-Reply-To: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> References: <64811E6C-15B7-11D8-AD3C-000A95796C18@develooper.com> Message-ID: See y'all tonight, round 7:15. If you haven't RSVP'ed, you still can, or just show up, and we'll squeeze you in. And bring something for brian d. foy -R At Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:57:21 -0800, Ask Bj?rn Hansen wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Robert and I got hungry, so hereby we announce a LA.pm dinner. > > The plan is to go to Caffe Capri[1]?in Silverlake on Thursday the 20th > (that's in a ~week) and stuff us silly with food. Email me or Robert > if you are coming so we can make reservations and be sure to let you > know if we find out that the place isn't open that day or whatever > (yes, that has happened before :-) ) > > > - ask > > [1] http://losangeles.citysearch.com/profile/52302/ > http://losangeles.citysearch.com/review/52302/ > > -- > http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Losangeles-pm mailing list > Losangeles-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm From john at mediaOnFire.com Tue Nov 25 13:17:46 2003 From: john at mediaOnFire.com (John W. Palmieri) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes Message-ID: <3FC3AADA.3000405@mediaOnFire.com> 25 November 2003 Hi: A technical question for anyone who has a spare minute: When I'm using strings in Perl I try to use single quotes for static strings (e.g., 'This string is static') since I figure that the interpreter won't have to work as hard as it doesn't have to look for variables, escapes, etc. (e.g., "This is a $dynamic string\n"). I have no evidence that this makes a difference, but it seems reasonable. Is it? Also, when building an output string I'll tend to use long static strings followed by the dot (.) concatenator for inserting variables using the same reasoning. I'm asking this question since I've come around that this may not be the most efficient since with every concatenation it may have to do exec a bunch of constructors and copies? Anyone have thoughts on these (small) issues? Cheers and TIA, John From rspier at pobox.com Tue Nov 25 16:14:14 2003 From: rspier at pobox.com (Robert Spier) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes In-Reply-To: <3FC3AADA.3000405@mediaOnFire.com> References: <3FC3AADA.3000405@mediaOnFire.com> Message-ID: > Anyone have thoughts on these (small) issues? I have some answers in my head, based on my experience, as well as my understanding of the internals. (As well as whether or not this is actually a useful place to make things faster..) But, instead of giving you dinner, I shall teach you to fish. (Wow, that sounds a little trite. It's not intended that way.) See the Benchmark module and write some tests to see. (And then run them on various platforms and perl versions.) -R From dgwilson at gtemail.net Tue Nov 25 16:20:00 2003 From: dgwilson at gtemail.net (Douglas Wilson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes Message-ID: <20031125222000.1722.qmail@verizonmail.com> From: "John W. Palmieri" > > When I'm using strings in Perl I try to use single quotes > for static strings (e.g., 'This string is static') since I > Also, when building an output string I'll tend to use long > static strings followed by the dot (.) concatenator for > inserting variables using the same reasoning. I'm asking > this question since I've come around that this may not be > the most efficient since with every concatenation it may > have to do exec a bunch of constructors and copies? Run your script through B::Deparse like this: perl -MO=Deparse,-q script_name_here You'll see that double quoted strings containing nothing but constants are just interpreted as single quoted strings anyway, and double quoted strings containing variables are interpreted as '.' concatenated strings. HTH, Doug -- _______________________________________________ Get your free Verizonmail at www.verizonmail.com From ben_tilly at operamail.com Tue Nov 25 16:51:23 2003 From: ben_tilly at operamail.com (Benjamin J. Tilly ) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes Message-ID: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> "John W. Palmieri" wrote: > 25 November 2003 > > Hi: > > A technical question for anyone who has a spare minute: > > When I'm using strings in Perl I try to use single quotes > for static strings (e.g., 'This string is static') since I > figure that the interpreter won't have to work as hard as it > doesn't have to look for variables, escapes, etc. (e.g., > "This is a $dynamic string\n"). I have no evidence that this > makes a difference, but it seems reasonable. Is it? It is reasonable, true, but is such a small difference that I will probably spend more time writing this email than the difference between the two for parsing every invocation of every Perl program that you will ever write. See http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=53630 for details. Insert usual lecture on premature optimization. If you have never seen it, then http://www.stevemcconnell.com/cctune.htm gives a decent version. > Also, when building an output string I'll tend to use long > static strings followed by the dot (.) concatenator for > inserting variables using the same reasoning. I'm asking > this question since I've come around that this may not be > the most efficient since with every concatenation it may > have to do exec a bunch of constructors and copies? I won't insert the usual lecture on premature optimization because something like this can be an issue in other languages. For instance in Java, JavaScript, C++, etc it can be very slow to create a large string by incrementally appending many small strings to a growing one. That is, their equivalents of the following is slow (ie it scales quadratically with the number of strings): my $hello = ""; for (1..200_000) { $hello .= "Hello, world\n"; } However the Perl interpreter is smart about this. It will pre-buffer the end of the string and only have to reallocate at need with a dynamically sized buffer. Therefore the amortized cost of appending another small string is constant. So the above piece of code is not a performance issue in Perl. What this means is that worrying about the cost of doing a ton of constructors and copies with string manipulation is entirely a non-issue in Perl although it can become one in other languages. However in this specific instance, interpolation works EXACTLY the same way under the hood as concatenation. Given that interpolation is easier to read, there is no excuse not to use it. (If you really want to focus on trivial differences, then focus on all of the punctuation that Perl will wind up not having to parse.) > Anyone have thoughts on these (small) issues? I just gave you the basic information. The bigger issue is that you need to stop worrying about micro optimizations and worry about real programming problems. Cheers, Ben From jeff at yoak.com Tue Nov 25 18:09:59 2003 From: jeff at yoak.com (Jeff Yoak) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes In-Reply-To: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> References: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> Message-ID: <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 14:51, Benjamin J. Tilly wrote: > Insert usual lecture on premature optimization. If you have > never seen it, then http://www.stevemcconnell.com/cctune.htm > gives a decent version. Hi, I'm 99% in agreement here, but you expressed yourself so well and pointed to such an excellent reference that the "Me too." aspect of responding is uninteresting. On to the 1%. I believe that one of the things that distinguishes very good programmers is having good habits. (Of course, one of these good habits is not trying to optimize inappropriately, but that's the 99% again.) Sometimes having good habits means learning about small optimizations and habitualizing their use. What's wrong with: if(grep {$_ eq 'banana'} @fruit){ print "The monkeys rejoice!\n"; } The answer is nothing. You just don't have enough fruit to care. It is better to not continue through @fruit once you find a banana. You would prefer: foreach my $fruit (@fruit){ if($fruit eq "banana"){ print "The monkeys rejoice!\n"; last; } } You might still further prefer: my %fruit; @fruit{@fruit}=(); print ... if exists $fruit{'banana'}; depending on what else the program might be doing. Now, if you have a program that includes the initial grep statement and you know @fruit is small and will be rarely searched in this fashion, it would be pretty silly to spend time optimizing to one of the latter constructions. You'd barely be able to measure the difference. The last construction might even be slower to access once on a small array. The reason I mention it is that it is a good habit. Sometimes you *will* have a lot of fruit. Can't you just provide care and thought when it is large? To a certain extent you can, but habits are extremely important. It slows you down way too much to have to simmer over every line you write, even if you are aware of all of the issues involved. If you form habits like this, you can spend your brain cycles on your algorithms, data structures and actual problem rather than worrying about whether this particular instance is one in which you shouldn't allow the internals of grep to hurt you. My third code snippet above demonstrates another of my habits. It indicates what I mean clearly, I think, because when I wrote it the following didactic consideration hadn't yet occured to me. Hashes are very frequently used to force uniqueness or check existence. Probably 99% of all code written by others that I've encountered will create a true hash value for each key which is then never used. This saves typing out "exists" even though that is what you mean. My habit is to the contrary because it is more efficient this way. There is only one undef. Storing undef as the value in each case is cheaper than storing a regular scalar in each case. In the overwhelming majority of cases, this difference of memory footprint is unimportant. Choosing that as an optimization would almost always be a waste of time. On the other hand, I learned about this years ago and typing it that way is now completely automatic. In the rare cases where it does matter, it isn't something I have to think about in order to get the benefit. I think the effort I made in profiling it and making that decision has paid off. Maybe this is mere banging the tennis ball instead of bending to pick it up, and maybe most of the benefit comes from other programmers thinking something I wrote is "elegant" because of it, but I think in general being oriented to forming such habits is useful. Do you type: mysql -ufoo -p and then type the password so it doesn't end up in your command history file instead of including it in the initial command? I think that is a good habit. In many cases, you might not really care, but in other cases you would. Doing it this way is probably the best choice. I think including the password willy-nilly in the initial command is probably second choice. Last choice, IMO, would be to actually think about it each time. That would make it too slow, and too occupy your mind with a very minor detail. So... I think habits are important. I think asking the question of the OP is probably a good thing. Other people have indicated how to measure it. Find out if it matters, and then habitualize the best way. In any particular case, it is unlikely to be an optimization that is important, but collectively over the course of all the programs you'll ever write it might be. As someone else said, in this case it might not matter even over the whole span of your programming life, but even in that case it might *still* be worth it because you inevitably learn other things while investigating a question like this. Even if it is just how Benchmark and Deparse and such work. Cheers, Jeff From metaperl at urth.org Tue Nov 25 18:29:33 2003 From: metaperl at urth.org (Terrence Brannon) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes In-Reply-To: <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> References: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> Message-ID: <3FC3F3ED.4010004@urth.org> Jeff Yoak wrote: >What's wrong with: > >if(grep {$_ eq 'banana'} @fruit){ > print "The monkeys rejoice!\n"; >} > >The answer is nothing. You just don't have enough fruit to care. It is >better to not continue through @fruit once you find a banana. You would >prefer: > >foreach my $fruit (@fruit){ > if($fruit eq "banana"){ > print "The monkeys rejoice!\n"; > last; > } >} > >You might still further prefer: > >my %fruit; >@fruit{@fruit}=(); >print ... if exists $fruit{'banana'}; > > > Let's not forget: http://search.cpan.org/~gbarr/Scalar-List-Utils-1.13/lib/List/Util.pm which allows if (first { $_ = $desired } @fruit) { print "$desired found"; } From cohen4 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 25 18:23:08 2003 From: cohen4 at mindspring.com (David Cohen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes In-Reply-To: <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> References: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031125162039.026d8510@mail.mindspring.com> British mathematician Alfred North Whitehead gets at the gist of Jeff Yoak's msg in his famous quote: "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them". ___ DC From john at mediaOnFire.com Wed Nov 26 00:13:57 2003 From: john at mediaOnFire.com (John W. Palmieri) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:55 2004 Subject: [LA.pm] Double versus single quotes In-Reply-To: <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> References: <20031125225123.27084.qmail@operamail.com> <1069805396.10838.48.camel@jeffy.internal> Message-ID: <3FC444A5.70704@mediaOnFire.com> Thanks all for the answers. I'm going to try find the time to do some fishing this weekend. ;^) Cheers, John