From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Fri Jun  1 05:08:19 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:08:19 +0300
Subject: [Kc] Spotted on #perl
Message-ID: <200706011508.20434.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi all!

(Please reply only to one list, unless you're subscribed to more).

Here are two edited conversations that recently took place on Freenode's #perl 
channel and which I added to my fortunes' collection:

http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/

I am rindolf. They should be somewhat amusing and hopefully they can start an 
interesting conversation here.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
  <ferret>  LeoNerd: That was one of the first blobs of Java I wrote,
            it's allowed to be even more verbose and convoluted than
            Java normally is. ;P
 <rindolf>  ferret: link?
  <ferret>  /las Cat.java
 <rindolf>  ferret: an implementation of the UNIX "cat" program in
            Java??
  <ferret>  Actually, specifically the GNU cat program, and only a
            subset thereof.
 <rindolf>  ferret: oh.
 <rindolf>  ferret: how many lines did it take?
         *  f00li5h heads off to #codegolf and tries to convince them to
            allow java submissions
  <ferret>  rindolf: It's mostly argument parser.
 <rindolf>  ferret: I once implemented a parser for a subset of the
            Bourne Shell args, in really hideous ANSI C.
 <rindolf>  f00li5h: good luck.
 <rindolf>  f00li5h: Java Golf...
 <f00li5h>  yeah, for sure!
 <rindolf>  Java Golf would be longer than a non-Golfed Perl program.
 <f00li5h>  rindolf: this is true
 <rindolf>  f00li5h: COBOL Golf!

    The Pyramid of Code Golf on Freenode's #perl
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

and:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
        <pasteling>  "struggling intern" at 129.162.1.31 pasted "Here it
                     is.." (220 lines, 5.7K) at
                     http://sial.org/pbot/25279
 <strugglingintern>  woohoo
 <strugglingintern>  there it goes...
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: oh my god!
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: this code looks really bad.
 <strugglingintern>  heh...
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: if ($records eq 0 ) - don't you
                     want ($records == 0)?
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: do you have unit tests?
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and you should factor it better.
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and possibly use Template Toolkit
                     or something.
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and you may have some
                     HTML-injection (or XSS) problems.
            <Ani-_>  rindolf: and probably SQL injection problems.
          <rindolf>  Ani-_: indeed!
 <strugglingintern>  :-/
            <Ani-_>  strugglingintern: really, ask them to review that
                     code when they get back.
 <strugglingintern>  alright
 <strugglingintern>  I appreciate it anyway
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: how long have you been
                     programming perl?
 <strugglingintern>  hah, about 3 months
 <strugglingintern>  This isn't all my code ;)
 <strugglingintern>  I'll look into it
 <strugglingintern>  Thanks guys (and gals).
          <rindolf>  strugglingintern: you're welcome.
 <strugglingintern>  not my choice ;)
 <strugglingintern>  it's my 3rd week here :)
          <rindolf>  Amazing how much more experienced programmers can
                     tell a code is bad from a quick glance.
          <rindolf>  It's a bit scary.
            <Ani-_>  nothing amazing about it. It's called skill. :)
           <The_SB>  yeh even I can tell it by a look
            <ology>  It's not scary or amazing at all.
            <ology>  It is called experience!
            <Ani-_>  rindolf: what do you find scary?
            <Ani-_>  rindolf: that experienced programmers can tell it?
                     Or the code itself?
            <Ani-_>  I would disagree on the first one but agree on the
                     later! :)
          <rindolf>  Ani-_: no, that I'm so experienced.
          <rindolf>  Ani-_: I hope I don't sound out as a snob.
            <ology>  narcissism is fun
          <rindolf>  I should get a life.
          <rindolf>  Get a girlfriend, go to movies.
          <rindolf>  Instead all I do is write Perl.
          <rindolf>  And chat about writing Perl.
           <Ikarus>  a life, tried that, didn't mix with me

    -- Scary Perl Expertise on Freenode's #perl
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From djgoku at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 09:58:13 2007
From: djgoku at gmail.com (djgoku)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:58:13 -0500
Subject: [Kc] Spotted on #perl
In-Reply-To: <200706011508.20434.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
References: <200706011508.20434.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
Message-ID: <99dd19c90706010958q6ac2117fh26b3b0ec0bb6f6f1@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/07, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at iglu.org.il> wrote:
>
> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
>         <pasteling>  "struggling intern" at 129.162.1.31 pasted "Here it
>                      is.." (220 lines, 5.7K) at
>                      http://sial.org/pbot/25279
>  <strugglingintern>  woohoo
>  <strugglingintern>  there it goes...
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: oh my god!
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: this code looks really bad.
>  <strugglingintern>  heh...
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: if ($records eq 0 ) - don't you
>                      want ($records == 0)?
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: do you have unit tests?
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and you should factor it better.
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and possibly use Template Toolkit
>                      or something.
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: and you may have some
>                      HTML-injection (or XSS) problems.
>             <Ani-_>  rindolf: and probably SQL injection problems.
>           <rindolf>  Ani-_: indeed!
>  <strugglingintern>  :-/
>             <Ani-_>  strugglingintern: really, ask them to review that
>                      code when they get back.
>  <strugglingintern>  alright
>  <strugglingintern>  I appreciate it anyway
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: how long have you been
>                      programming perl?
>  <strugglingintern>  hah, about 3 months
>  <strugglingintern>  This isn't all my code ;)
>  <strugglingintern>  I'll look into it
>  <strugglingintern>  Thanks guys (and gals).
>           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: you're welcome.
>  <strugglingintern>  not my choice ;)
>  <strugglingintern>  it's my 3rd week here :)
>           <rindolf>  Amazing how much more experienced programmers can
>                      tell a code is bad from a quick glance.
>           <rindolf>  It's a bit scary.
>             <Ani-_>  nothing amazing about it. It's called skill. :)
>            <The_SB>  yeh even I can tell it by a look
>             <ology>  It's not scary or amazing at all.
>             <ology>  It is called experience!
>             <Ani-_>  rindolf: what do you find scary?
>             <Ani-_>  rindolf: that experienced programmers can tell it?
>                      Or the code itself?
>             <Ani-_>  I would disagree on the first one but agree on the
>                      later! :)
>           <rindolf>  Ani-_: no, that I'm so experienced.
>           <rindolf>  Ani-_: I hope I don't sound out as a snob.
>             <ology>  narcissism is fun
>           <rindolf>  I should get a life.
>           <rindolf>  Get a girlfriend, go to movies.
>           <rindolf>  Instead all I do is write Perl.
>           <rindolf>  And chat about writing Perl.
>            <Ikarus>  a life, tried that, didn't mix with me
>
>     -- Scary Perl Expertise on Freenode's #perl
> }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I can't say I am experienced enough to look at code and say anything
good or bad about it yet, though maybe someday. I haven't been in
#Perl channel much, though I probably should be more often. The
channels seems very helpful when I lurk in from time to time. Talked
with Randal Schwartz (sp?) one day that was neat.

Jonathan

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Fri Jun  1 11:17:27 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:17:27 +0300
Subject: [Kc] Spotted on #perl
In-Reply-To: <99dd19c90706010958q6ac2117fh26b3b0ec0bb6f6f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200706011508.20434.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
	<99dd19c90706010958q6ac2117fh26b3b0ec0bb6f6f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200706012117.27426.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

CCing to Perl-IL...

On Friday 01 June 2007, djgoku wrote:
> On 6/1/07, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at iglu.org.il> wrote:
> > {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
> >         <pasteling>  "struggling intern" at 129.162.1.31 pasted "Here it
> >                      is.." (220 lines, 5.7K) at
> >                      http://sial.org/pbot/25279
> >  <strugglingintern>  woohoo
> >  <strugglingintern>  there it goes...
> >           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: oh my god!
> >           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: this code looks really bad.
> >  <strugglingintern>  heh...
> >           <rindolf>  strugglingintern: if ($records eq 0 ) - don't you
> >                      want ($records == 0)?

[ Snipped. ]

> > }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
>
> I can't say I am experienced enough to look at code and say anything
> good or bad about it yet, though maybe someday. 

Hmmm... well, one thing good about Perl is that the syntax is very distinctive 
and you can often detect various anti-patterns by looking at the code. In my 
case I did it without even turning on syntax highlighting on that paste.

Some readings for judging code:

1. Perl Best Practices - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/ .

2. Refactoring by Martin Fowler - http://www.refactoring.com/ - not 
particularly about Perl, but applicable everywhere. The examples are given in 
Java, which I think is very suitable for this context. 

That book made me hate having long functions or methods, and whenever I have a 
long method, I keep thinkink to myself "What I can extract". 

3. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pperl3/ - Programming Perl, 3rd Edition. The 
Bible of Perl which aims to cover everything in the language. Besides being 
very instructive, it is also very amusing.

Note that everything it covers can be found in perl*.pod. However, the Camel 
Book is somewhat more accessible, more organised funnier, and more fun to 
read.

4. Effective Perl Programming - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_Perl_Programming 

Teaches a lot of good and idiomatic Perl programming.

5. Source code! Lots of source code in CPAN - both good and bad. You can learn 
a lot from reading both. We had a discussion on reading source code on 
Hackers-IL:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.culture.hackers.israel/810

6. Blogs - on http://use.perl.org/, http://worsethanfailure.com/Default.aspx

> I haven't been in 
> #Perl channel much, though I probably should be more often. 

You can learn a lot from IRC, too.

> The 
> channels seems very helpful when I lurk in from time to time. 

They are. Lots of off-topic discussion too, but we like it.

> Talked 
> with Randal Schwartz (sp?) one day that was neat.

Yes, Randal is cool. However, he tends to be very flamatorry. After getting 
banned (temporarily), he decided that frequenting #perl made him too uptight, 
and that he should take a break from it. We kind-of miss him, but at least 
the channel is more civil.

I should note that there are many other famous perlers who are present only on 
#perl6 (including Larry Wall - :-)), and on irc.perl.org. I wouldn't 
recommend joining most irc.perl.org's channels because they often tend to be 
very unfriendly and uncivil.  

I should note that I've been writing Perl code since 1996, and all the 
knowledge has accumulated. I could have learned it more quickly if I had the 
motivation, and knew what books or resources to read, but I didn't. And of 
course, even in Perl which is a huge language with lots of little crannies, 
the law of diminishing returns eventually kicks in. Perl 6, anyone? ;-)

I should note that often paradigms I learned for a different language proved 
enlightening for Perl, or even immediately useful there. For example, after 
learning about closures in Scheme by reading SICP ( 
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ ) , I truly understood how sub { ... } and 
friends behaved in Perl and put them into good use.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Mon Jun  4 07:41:58 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:41:58 -0500
Subject: [Kc] two perl job openings in the KC area
Message-ID: <20070604144158.GA30925@mooresystems.com>



Hey KC Mongers - 

I've been contacted by Justin Stancil at Modis IT about two positions
he's trying to fill. If you have interest in these, please contact him
directly:

Justin Stancil <Justin.Stancil at modisit.com>
Modis IT -  Resource Development Manager
6800 College Blvd.  Suite 750
Overland Park, KS 66211
Phone: (913) 345-2228 Ext. 22
Fax: (913) 345-9955
www.modisit.com

Justin says this about the first opening:

...They have an entry level Perl developer position.  The candidate
needs to only have about 6 months of experience with Perl, could even
be in school.  The position is direct hire and has a salary range of
$36-40k a year.

The second opening is at a large telecommunications company that you
have heard of:

...this is a two year contract.  They are looking for someone to write
programs using Perl and SQL and develop screen-scraping tools, both
for web sites and traditional "green-screen" applications (Telnet and
IBM 3270).  Experience in rule based programming languages and SOAP is
helpful but not required.  Candidate should be able to pick up an
existing legacy codebase and run with it on start date.  Not positive
what the pay rate would be but I will find out.

If you have interest in either of these positions, let Justin Stancil
know.

Hope it helps someone out.

-Andy


From amoore at mooresystems.com  Mon Jun  4 07:53:27 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:53:27 -0500
Subject: [Kc] blind leading the blind
Message-ID: <20070604145327.GC30925@mooresystems.com>


Hey guys - 

Just to let you know, since Garrett is heading out of town, I asked
him to put my name instead of his on the "official" list of people who
lead PM groups. As you can probably tell, the powers,
responsibilities, and benefits that come with this position are
essentially zero. If you have any administrative questions, though,
feel free to ask me. I probably won't have any good answers.

I'll just try to make sure I remind the list about the meetings, and
maybe even encourage us to develop some agenda items like I've been
doing on and off in the past during some of Garrett's previous
junkets.

See y'all a week from tomorrow on the 12th!

-Andy


From amoore at mooresystems.com  Mon Jun  4 08:41:00 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
Message-ID: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>


Hey Perlers - 

I receive a few mails a month about open perl positions in the local
area, and have mostly been sending them on to the list. I've been
considering adding a page to the kc.pm.org website about how to notify
the group about an open position, but want to get your input on this.

Do you mind seeing messages about job openings on the list?

Should I encourage recruiters and hiring managers to continue to send
descriptions of open positions to one of us who can forward them on to
the list? 
(and then, would anyone else like to be that person? I don't mind it
being me.)

Should we encourage them to subscribe to the list so that they can
post them themselves?

Should we just direct them to jobs.perl.org and discourage posting to
the list?

Is there any other advice you'd like to pass on to recruiters and
hiring managers with open perl positions?

Let me know if you have any strong opinions about this stuff.

Thanks!
-Andy




From lokeey at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 10:49:08 2007
From: lokeey at gmail.com (Lokeey)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:49:08 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>

the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website sounds cool,
too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking out the
postings?

On 6/4/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Perlers -
>
> I receive a few mails a month about open perl positions in the local
> area, and have mostly been sending them on to the list. I've been
> considering adding a page to the kc.pm.org website about how to notify
> the group about an open position, but want to get your input on this.
>
> Do you mind seeing messages about job openings on the list?
>
> Should I encourage recruiters and hiring managers to continue to send
> descriptions of open positions to one of us who can forward them on to
> the list?
> (and then, would anyone else like to be that person? I don't mind it
> being me.)
>
> Should we encourage them to subscribe to the list so that they can
> post them themselves?
>
> Should we just direct them to jobs.perl.org and discourage posting to
> the list?
>
> Is there any other advice you'd like to pass on to recruiters and
> hiring managers with open perl positions?
>
> Let me know if you have any strong opinions about this stuff.
>
> Thanks!
> -Andy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>



-- 
"99 years and counting"
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From lokeey at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 10:49:08 2007
From: lokeey at gmail.com (Lokeey)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:49:08 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>

the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website sounds cool,
too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking out the
postings?

On 6/4/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Perlers -
>
> I receive a few mails a month about open perl positions in the local
> area, and have mostly been sending them on to the list. I've been
> considering adding a page to the kc.pm.org website about how to notify
> the group about an open position, but want to get your input on this.
>
> Do you mind seeing messages about job openings on the list?
>
> Should I encourage recruiters and hiring managers to continue to send
> descriptions of open positions to one of us who can forward them on to
> the list?
> (and then, would anyone else like to be that person? I don't mind it
> being me.)
>
> Should we encourage them to subscribe to the list so that they can
> post them themselves?
>
> Should we just direct them to jobs.perl.org and discourage posting to
> the list?
>
> Is there any other advice you'd like to pass on to recruiters and
> hiring managers with open perl positions?
>
> Let me know if you have any strong opinions about this stuff.
>
> Thanks!
> -Andy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>



-- 
"99 years and counting"
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From amoore at mooresystems.com  Mon Jun  4 11:18:43 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:18:43 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>


On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 12:49:08PM -0500, Lokeey wrote:
> the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website sounds cool,
> too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking out the
> postings?

Hmm. Maybe my intentions weren't very clear at the beginning since
I've gotten this kind of question a few times. I was envisioning a
page directed at employers and recruiters, not directed at group
members or job hunters. Here's why:

Sometimes, recruiters or employers email me to ask me how they can
notify the group of a new job opening. I tell them to send me the
description and then I send it along to the list. I believe that they
have gotten my email address from the kc.pm.org website.

To ease the process, I thought I would make a page on kc.pm.org
directed at employers and recruiters. It would tell them to use
jobs.perl.org or to email job descriptions to one of us to pass along
to the group.

I put a few minutes into this page: http://kc.pm.org/jobpostings.shtml
and may link to it from the rest of the site if it seems appropriate
to the gang.

The way that the "straw poll" is going means this is a growing
likelyhood.

Holler with any suggestions.

-A



From davidnicol at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 11:07:52 2007
From: davidnicol at gmail.com (David Nicol)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:07:52 -0500
Subject: [Kc] June 12 agenda items
Message-ID: <934f64a20706041107m3e8019efhc05e41485c9c354f@mail.gmail.com>

Without objection, I would like to present my work-in-progress
Macrame.pm lisp-like macro system.

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Mon Jun  4 11:25:57 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:25:57 -0500
Subject: [Kc] June 12 agenda items
In-Reply-To: <934f64a20706041107m3e8019efhc05e41485c9c354f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <934f64a20706041107m3e8019efhc05e41485c9c354f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070604182557.GA32178@mooresystems.com>


super! I look forward to seeing it.

-Andy



On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 01:07:52PM -0500, David Nicol wrote:
> Without objection, I would like to present my work-in-progress
> Macrame.pm lisp-like macro system.

From ironicface at earthlink.net  Mon Jun  4 11:15:27 2007
From: ironicface at earthlink.net (Teal)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:15:27 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>

Andrew Moore wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 12:49:08PM -0500, Lokeey wrote:
> 
>>the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website sounds cool,
>>too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking out the
>>postings?
> 
> 
> Hmm. Maybe my intentions weren't very clear at the beginning since
> I've gotten this kind of question a few times. I was envisioning a
> page directed at employers and recruiters, not directed at group
> members or job hunters. 

Can you, like, you know, make a form for them to send their information 
through?

Thought that might be easier.

And I always like to here about the jobs, so the list is fine with me.

Teal
-- 
Five minutes of Silence,
Meditate. Breathe. Be Alive.

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 19:31:14 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:31:14 -0700
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <200706041931.15136.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Andrew Moore
# on Monday 04 June 2007 11:18 am:

> I thought I would make a page on kc.pm.org
>directed at employers and recruiters. It would tell them to use
>jobs.perl.org or to email job descriptions to one of us to pass along
>to the group.

That sounds like a good idea.  In pdx.pm, we try to use the [job] tag in 
the subject for those that are happily employed to be able to filter 
it.

Last I looked at jobs.perl.org, it was fairly weak WRT filtering jobs by 
state in the US.  If you're pointing them there, it's probably a good 
thing for them to also send you the link so you can get the attention 
of local mongers (since most employers will typically prefer that even 
in a telecommute job.)

--Eric
-- 
Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
Religion: A large, popular cult.
-- Unknown
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From lokeey at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 19:35:55 2007
From: lokeey at gmail.com (Lokeey)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:35:55 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <c376ec420706041935n320cd895m83728e0dff6b1144@mail.gmail.com>

ah okay...cool! that makes more sense. disregard my last then. i was um,
under pressure at the time. yeah! yeah! that's it!

On 6/4/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 12:49:08PM -0500, Lokeey wrote:
> > the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website sounds
> cool,
> > too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking out the
> > postings?
>
> Hmm. Maybe my intentions weren't very clear at the beginning since
> I've gotten this kind of question a few times. I was envisioning a
> page directed at employers and recruiters, not directed at group
> members or job hunters. Here's why:
>
> Sometimes, recruiters or employers email me to ask me how they can
> notify the group of a new job opening. I tell them to send me the
> description and then I send it along to the list. I believe that they
> have gotten my email address from the kc.pm.org website.
>
> To ease the process, I thought I would make a page on kc.pm.org
> directed at employers and recruiters. It would tell them to use
> jobs.perl.org or to email job descriptions to one of us to pass along
> to the group.
>
> I put a few minutes into this page: http://kc.pm.org/jobpostings.shtml
> and may link to it from the rest of the site if it seems appropriate
> to the gang.
>
> The way that the "straw poll" is going means this is a growing
> likelyhood.
>
> Holler with any suggestions.
>
> -A
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>



-- 
"99 years and counting"
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From davidnicol at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 10:33:06 2007
From: davidnicol at gmail.com (David Nicol)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:33:06 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <c376ec420706041935n320cd895m83728e0dff6b1144@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041935n320cd895m83728e0dff6b1144@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <934f64a20706051033h510697age38a18255f539997@mail.gmail.com>

> On 6/4/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
> > I put a few minutes into this page:
> http://kc.pm.org/jobpostings.shtml
> > and may link to it from the rest of the site if it seems appropriate
> > to the gang.

My policy is to tell recruiters to subscribe to the list and post their openings
themselves.  The list is not very high traffic, and a recruiter for IT positions
might learn something from the discussion, if they don't just
circular-file it all.


-- 
"It is not possible to make a mistake." (customary greeting given by
Bokononists when meeting a shy person)

From djgoku at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 10:33:57 2007
From: djgoku at gmail.com (djgoku)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:33:57 -0500
Subject: [Kc] blind leading the blind
In-Reply-To: <20070604145327.GC30925@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070604145327.GC30925@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <99dd19c90706071033h29f097ebw323eafc25c752db6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
> Hey guys -
>
> Just to let you know, since Garrett is heading out of town, I asked
> him to put my name instead of his on the "official" list of people who
> lead PM groups. As you can probably tell, the powers,
> responsibilities, and benefits that come with this position are
> essentially zero. If you have any administrative questions, though,
> feel free to ask me. I probably won't have any good answers.

Oh, great leader lead US! =)

> I'll just try to make sure I remind the list about the meetings, and
> maybe even encourage us to develop some agenda items like I've been
> doing on and off in the past during some of Garrett's previous
> junkets.
>
> See y'all a week from tomorrow on the 12th!

I plan on being there, will hopefully ride the new motorcycle there!

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Fri Jun  8 12:00:13 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 14:00:13 -0500
Subject: [Kc] [pm_groups] TPF boot at OSCON
In-Reply-To: <20070608175552.GB15389@panix.com>
References: <20070608175552.GB15389@panix.com>
Message-ID: <20070608190013.GA24322@mooresystems.com>


Here's an OSCON volunteer opportunity if any of you are interested.

-Andy



On Fri, Jun 08, 2007 at 01:55:52PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
> The Perl Foundation is looking for volunteers to man (or woman) our
> booth at OSCON.
> 
> If any of your members are attending OSCON and would like to volunteer,
> they can send an email to volunteer at perlfoundation.org.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> dha
> 
> -- 
> David H. Adler - <dha at panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
> -- 
> Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org
> 
> pm_groups mailing list
> pm_groups at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups

From ggoebel at goebel.ws  Fri Jun  8 12:29:34 2007
From: ggoebel at goebel.ws (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 15:29:34 -0400
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>

FWIW: I'd recommend direct them to jobs.perl.org. After all, the  
http://kc.pm.org/jobs.shtml page on the kc.pm website already refers  
to it.

Then you could pester the people behind that to add a way to qualify  
the parameters embedded in the url by city. Of course then we'll  
probably get stuck with KC, MO vs KC, KS...

cheers,

Garrett

On Jun 4, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Teal wrote:

> Andrew Moore wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 12:49:08PM -0500, Lokeey wrote:
>>
>>> the email to the list is fine, but adding a page to the website  
>>> sounds cool,
>>> too. the question is how many ppl are on the site daily checking  
>>> out the
>>> postings?
>>
>>
>> Hmm. Maybe my intentions weren't very clear at the beginning since
>> I've gotten this kind of question a few times. I was envisioning a
>> page directed at employers and recruiters, not directed at group
>> members or job hunters.
>
> Can you, like, you know, make a form for them to send their  
> information
> through?
>
> Thought that might be easier.
>
> And I always like to here about the jobs, so the list is fine with me.
>
> Teal
> -- 
> Five minutes of Silence,
> Meditate. Breathe. Be Alive.
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>


From ironicface at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  8 12:34:32 2007
From: ironicface at earthlink.net (Teal)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:34:32 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
	<F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>
Message-ID: <4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>

Garrett Goebel wrote:

> FWIW: I'd recommend direct them to jobs.perl.org. After all, the  
> http://kc.pm.org/jobs.shtml page on the kc.pm website already refers  to 
> it.
> 
> Then you could pester the people behind that to add a way to qualify  
> the parameters embedded in the url by city. Of course then we'll  
> probably get stuck with KC, MO vs KC, KS...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Garrett
> 

Ok.

MOre serious reply.

One of the nice things about how these get through to the list, is that 
theycreate a feel of (possibly) more personal contact.

A giant list archive loses that.
While it would be good to ADD the jobs to the national list, it would be 
nice not to lose the sense of touch.

How to do that and not make the Moderator's life hard is then the corollary.

And its nice that, due to their being list traffic, we actually can talk 
about the positions on the list. This creates a social network of 
thoughts, advice, and knowledge. I like reading the posts and the talk, 
even if I am not going to apply for the job.

just my take on it,
Teal
-- 
Five minutes of Silence,
Meditate. Breathe. Be Alive.

From ggoebel at goebel.ws  Fri Jun  8 13:19:38 2007
From: ggoebel at goebel.ws (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:19:38 -0400
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
	<F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>
	<4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94F89251-EF84-4587-A7D5-9A12A8343FA7@goebel.ws>

Hmm. Maybe when you're pestering the folks behind jobs.perl.org, you  
could instead ask them to support locality by qualify job postings by  
perl monger group. And then have each perl monger group be able to  
flip a bit to have such job postings go direct to the group's mailing  
list.

Can we have cake and eat it too?

Garrett

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Teal wrote:

> Garrett Goebel wrote:
>
>> FWIW: I'd recommend direct them to jobs.perl.org. After all, the
>> http://kc.pm.org/jobs.shtml page on the kc.pm website already  
>> refers  to
>> it.
>>
>> Then you could pester the people behind that to add a way to qualify
>> the parameters embedded in the url by city. Of course then we'll
>> probably get stuck with KC, MO vs KC, KS...
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Garrett
>>
>
> Ok.
>
> MOre serious reply.
>
> One of the nice things about how these get through to the list, is  
> that
> theycreate a feel of (possibly) more personal contact.
>
> A giant list archive loses that.
> While it would be good to ADD the jobs to the national list, it  
> would be
> nice not to lose the sense of touch.
>
> How to do that and not make the Moderator's life hard is then the  
> corollary.
>
> And its nice that, due to their being list traffic, we actually can  
> talk
> about the positions on the list. This creates a social network of
> thoughts, advice, and knowledge. I like reading the posts and the  
> talk,
> even if I am not going to apply for the job.
>
> just my take on it,
> Teal
> -- 
> Five minutes of Silence,
> Meditate. Breathe. Be Alive.
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>


From ggoebel at goebel.ws  Fri Jun  8 13:19:38 2007
From: ggoebel at goebel.ws (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:19:38 -0400
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
	<F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>
	<4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94F89251-EF84-4587-A7D5-9A12A8343FA7@goebel.ws>

Hmm. Maybe when you're pestering the folks behind jobs.perl.org, you  
could instead ask them to support locality by qualify job postings by  
perl monger group. And then have each perl monger group be able to  
flip a bit to have such job postings go direct to the group's mailing  
list.

Can we have cake and eat it too?

Garrett

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Teal wrote:

> Garrett Goebel wrote:
>
>> FWIW: I'd recommend direct them to jobs.perl.org. After all, the
>> http://kc.pm.org/jobs.shtml page on the kc.pm website already  
>> refers  to
>> it.
>>
>> Then you could pester the people behind that to add a way to qualify
>> the parameters embedded in the url by city. Of course then we'll
>> probably get stuck with KC, MO vs KC, KS...
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Garrett
>>
>
> Ok.
>
> MOre serious reply.
>
> One of the nice things about how these get through to the list, is  
> that
> theycreate a feel of (possibly) more personal contact.
>
> A giant list archive loses that.
> While it would be good to ADD the jobs to the national list, it  
> would be
> nice not to lose the sense of touch.
>
> How to do that and not make the Moderator's life hard is then the  
> corollary.
>
> And its nice that, due to their being list traffic, we actually can  
> talk
> about the positions on the list. This creates a social network of
> thoughts, advice, and knowledge. I like reading the posts and the  
> talk,
> even if I am not going to apply for the job.
>
> just my take on it,
> Teal
> -- 
> Five minutes of Silence,
> Meditate. Breathe. Be Alive.
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>


From davidnicol at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 14:01:23 2007
From: davidnicol at gmail.com (David Nicol)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:01:23 -0500
Subject: [Kc] straw poll about job opening postings
In-Reply-To: <94F89251-EF84-4587-A7D5-9A12A8343FA7@goebel.ws>
References: <20070604154100.GA31426@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706041049q71814b76v3925733af392886e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070604181843.GA32081@mooresystems.com>
	<466456BF.30208@earthlink.net>
	<F481A3AE-1D31-4147-B822-8C581E4342E1@goebel.ws>
	<4669AF48.2010104@earthlink.net>
	<94F89251-EF84-4587-A7D5-9A12A8343FA7@goebel.ws>
Message-ID: <934f64a20706081401p2d7f62fdh4e97b9cadc619f60@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/8/07, Garrett Goebel <ggoebel at goebel.ws> wrote:
> Hmm. Maybe when you're pestering the folks behind jobs.perl.org, you
> could instead ask them to support locality by qualify job postings by
> perl monger group. And then have each perl monger group be able to
> flip a bit to have such job postings go direct to the group's mailing
> list.
>
> Can we have cake and eat it too?
>
> Garrett


absolutely.  Let's obtain a development grant for making this
incremental improvement happen, and then post to jobs.perl.org
looking for the person to do the work

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Sun Jun 10 11:29:03 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:29:03 -0500
Subject: [Kc] [yapc] yapc-na 2007 is almost here
In-Reply-To: <7f7c2d5e0706092328t45c2bb50t23fbe2df9759c069@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7f7c2d5e0706092328t45c2bb50t23fbe2df9759c069@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070610182903.GB9045@mooresystems.com>


Yapc::NA 2007 in Houston is coming soon.

-Andy

On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 01:28:38AM -0500, Jeremy Fluhmann wrote:
> YAPC::NA 2007 is only 15 days away!  If you haven't already registered, it's
> not too late!  Visit the YAPC::NA website (
> http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007) to get registered.  Don't miss out
> on the largest Perl gathering of North America!
> 
> ACT now!  For one easy payment of just $100 you'll get:
> 
>   - Three days packed with 36 hours of talks
>   - Opportunities to meet various members of the Perl community
>   - Chance to attend a variety of Birds of a Feather
> sessions<http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007/wiki>(BOFs)
>   - Conference T-shirt
>   - Swag bag full of all sorts of goodies (including a particular Perl
>   magazine <http://www.theperlreview.com/>)
>   - A night of gaming fun and Glow Bowling at the UC Games Room (more
>   information coming soon)
>   - Dinner at the Tuesday night Banquet
>   - Updates on major Perl projects
>   - Keynotes by The Perl Foundation and Larry Wall himself
> 
> Plus, for $200 more dollars, we'll throw in two extra days of Perl!  That's
> right, following the conference, Stonehenge is offering two 2-day training
> sessions at prices well under market value.  brian d foy will be offering
> two days of Intermeidate Perl with Randal Schwartz covering Perl Best
> Practices and Persistent Perl Data.  Visit the Master Class page on the YAPC
> to find out more - http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007/master.html
> 
> Don't have $200, but still want more Perl?  Then stay for the Hackathon!
> Two days of hacking fun and helping out on various projects.  There's a wiki
> page on the site for signing up -
> http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007/wiki?node=Hackathon
> 
> See you in Houston!
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeremy

> _______________________________________________
> yapc mailing list
> yapc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Tue Jun 12 06:46:38 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Kc] Perl Mongers meeting tonight 7pm
Message-ID: <20070612134638.GA21206@mooresystems.com>


Here's a friendly reminder that there's a KCPM meeting tonight at 7pm
at Planet Sub on Main in Kansas City. Among the probable topics are:

* David Nicol talks about his Macrame.pm
* results of straw poll on job postings 
  (spolier: it's the same as the 2003 poll)
* shall we do a "perl program repair shop" next month?
  (like http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/2007-May/004232.html)
* YAPC::NA attendees
* Anything else you like

I'll see y'all at Planet Sub around 7ish. Look for us in one of the
front rooms.

More information: http://kc.pm.org/meetings.shtml

-Andy




From amoore at mooresystems.com  Wed Jun 13 07:47:00 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:47:00 -0500
Subject: [Kc] Perl Mongers meeting tonight 7pm
In-Reply-To: <20070612134638.GA21206@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070612134638.GA21206@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <20070613144700.GA27764@mooresystems.com>


We had a pretty good turnout last night. David, Jonathan, Tim, Derek,
Stephen, and myself hung out and actually chatted about perl for a
while.

Some items that came up were:

* David Nicol showed us his work on Macrame.pm. It's a source filter
  (not a pragma!) that allows one to define macros that will be
  expanded to chunks of perl code. Once again, he managed to really
  stretch our abilities to understand more advanced perl.

* Straw poll results: almost everyone agrees that it's (still) nice to
  have local job postings on the list as well as at
  jobs.perl.org. I'll make a web page that encourages recruiters and
  potential employers to post to jobs.perl.org and tells them how they
  can contact one of us to forward the posting on to the list if it's
  appropriate. Doug Ledbetter has tentatively agreed to volunteer for
  this spot. I think it's a position we should pass around
  occasionally, much as we should the "moderator" spot.

* I mentioned the "perl program repair shop" that Chicago-pm was doing
  last night
  <http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?perl_program_repair_shop>,
  which seems to have worked well for them. Some people expressed
  interest in this kind of "interactive code review and
  refactoring". I'll try to get a separate mail out to the list about
  this soon.

* motorcycles, ham radios, and all kinds of other stuff.

Great turn out last night; a good time was had by all. I'll see you
guys again on July 10th!

-Andy



From stephenclouse at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 09:35:24 2007
From: stephenclouse at gmail.com (Stephen Clouse)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:35:24 -0500
Subject: [Kc] Perl Mongers meeting tonight 7pm
In-Reply-To: <20070613144700.GA27764@mooresystems.com>
References: <20070612134638.GA21206@mooresystems.com>
	<20070613144700.GA27764@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <5d0ee2170706130935j15ec49f2j97c2f5c1a9b4ed81@mail.gmail.com>

And let's also mention, after you left, I actually installed Perl::Critic on
my dev server at work.

My code scores 3 out of 5 stars, apparently.

-- 
Stephen Clouse <stephenclouse at gmail.com>
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From amoore at mooresystems.com  Wed Jun 13 09:46:34 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:46:34 -0500
Subject: [Kc] Perl Mongers meeting tonight 7pm
In-Reply-To: <5d0ee2170706130935j15ec49f2j97c2f5c1a9b4ed81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070612134638.GA21206@mooresystems.com>
	<20070613144700.GA27764@mooresystems.com>
	<5d0ee2170706130935j15ec49f2j97c2f5c1a9b4ed81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070613164634.GA28230@mooresystems.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2007 at 11:35:24AM -0500, Stephen Clouse wrote:
> And let's also mention, after you left, I actually installed Perl::Critic on
> my dev server at work.
> 
> My code scores 3 out of 5 stars, apparently.

That's excellent! Writing code that passes critic level 3 (without
running perlcritic on it all the time to check it) is pretty
impressive. You apparently have much better practices than we do
around here.

-Andy

From ggoebel at goebel.ws  Tue Jun 19 20:04:00 2007
From: ggoebel at goebel.ws (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:04:00 -0400
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
Message-ID: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>

768 kbps down and 128 kbps up...

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/06/18/ 
att_quietly_offers_10_dsl_plan/?p1=MEWell_Pos3

AT&T has 6 months till they have to offer the naked dsl at $20/month.  
Looks like Christmas will be on time this year ;)

cheers,

Garrett

From davidnicol at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 12:42:52 2007
From: davidnicol at gmail.com (David Nicol)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:42:52 -0500
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
In-Reply-To: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
References: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
Message-ID: <934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>

i don't think SBC is part of BellSouth -- am I wrong?

From amoore at mooresystems.com  Thu Jun 21 12:55:05 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:55:05 -0500
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
In-Reply-To: <934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
	<934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070621195505.GA9994@mooresystems.com>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 02:42:52PM -0500, David Nicol wrote:
> i don't think SBC is part of BellSouth -- am I wrong?

I believe that SBC bought the parent company, AT&T and now uses that
name. Then, AT&T bought BellSouth. So, they're kinda the same thing
for now, I guess.

-A


From lokeey at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 12:55:14 2007
From: lokeey at gmail.com (Lokeey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:55:14 -0500
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
In-Reply-To: <20070621195505.GA9994@mooresystems.com>
References: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
	<934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070621195505.GA9994@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <c376ec420706211255w661fd055lf22e917b1209315f@mail.gmail.com>

yeah...and that's how it was before it was broken up into pieces about 20
years or so ago, right?

On 6/21/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 02:42:52PM -0500, David Nicol wrote:
> > i don't think SBC is part of BellSouth -- am I wrong?
>
> I believe that SBC bought the parent company, AT&T and now uses that
> name. Then, AT&T bought BellSouth. So, they're kinda the same thing
> for now, I guess.
>
> -A
>
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>



-- 
"99 years and counting"
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From amoore at mooresystems.com  Thu Jun 21 13:18:58 2007
From: amoore at mooresystems.com (Andrew Moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:18:58 -0500
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
In-Reply-To: <c376ec420706211255w661fd055lf22e917b1209315f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
	<934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070621195505.GA9994@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706211255w661fd055lf22e917b1209315f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070621201858.GB10113@mooresystems.com>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 02:55:14PM -0500, Lokeey wrote:
> yeah...and that's how it was before it was broken up into pieces about 20
> years or so ago, right?


Pretty much, except for Verizon, I think.

Oh. Here's an evolutionary chart of some kind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RBOCs_Dec_06.jpg

-Andy

From stephenclouse at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 16:09:12 2007
From: stephenclouse at gmail.com (Stephen Clouse)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:09:12 -0500
Subject: [Kc] $10/month AT&T DSL
In-Reply-To: <20070621201858.GB10113@mooresystems.com>
References: <5497BF16-3351-4377-AD4D-F68A963E408A@goebel.ws>
	<934f64a20706211242w7f5e1ebctd4aad8eb6c1b76cd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070621195505.GA9994@mooresystems.com>
	<c376ec420706211255w661fd055lf22e917b1209315f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070621201858.GB10113@mooresystems.com>
Message-ID: <5d0ee2170706211609u4299527dt8eb48e196967a1e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/07, Andrew Moore <amoore at mooresystems.com> wrote:
>
> Pretty much, except for Verizon, I think.
>
> Oh. Here's an evolutionary chart of some kind:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RBOCs_Dec_06.jpg
>

This is much better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtFtcp4mNzA

-- 
Stephen Clouse <stephenclouse at gmail.com>
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From cscheppers at kc.rr.com  Fri Jun 22 16:41:12 2007
From: cscheppers at kc.rr.com (C.J. Scheppers)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:41:12 -0500
Subject: [Kc] kc Digest - dsl and cable
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1182538813.23314.kc@pm.org>
References: <mailman.11.1182538813.23314.kc@pm.org>
Message-ID: <a0624080ec2a20e725fa6@[192.168.0.101]>

When will the rate I pay for roadrunner come down?

CJ

From ggoebel at goebel.ws  Sat Jun 23 15:10:14 2007
From: ggoebel at goebel.ws (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:10:14 -0400
Subject: [Kc] kc Digest - dsl and cable
In-Reply-To: <a0624080ec2a20e725fa6@[192.168.0.101]>
References: <mailman.11.1182538813.23314.kc@pm.org>
	<a0624080ec2a20e725fa6@[192.168.0.101]>
Message-ID: <8EFF172A-AA10-42BC-B031-84C6DBFE27BC@goebel.ws>

If and when the AT&T $10/month deal becomes public enough that people  
start signing up for it in droves. Then everyone else will have to  
bring down prices to compete with it. So spread the word on the $10/ 
month deal. And when the $20/month naked DSL deal comes out talk it  
up too.

AT&T was forced to offer this deal as part of the BellSouth merger.  
It has no intention of advertising it. And when the 2 1/2 year period  
in which they have to offer it has elapsed... it will probably go  
away. Unless enough competitors have lowered their prices that AT&T  
is forced to compete with them ;)

cheers,

Garrett

On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:41 PM, C.J. Scheppers wrote:

> When will the rate I pay for roadrunner come down?
>
> CJ
> _______________________________________________
> kc mailing list
> kc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
>