Java, Perl, etc.

[Chuck Williams]

We think with the many hundreds of hours of Perl that went into making
our web site since '96 there's no way that body of work could be
converted to another language in any reasonable way. Those scipts and
our presence make a compelling case for Perl.

Our web group was in the Publications Division until this summer and we
chose our own course. So it was Perl and Oracle. We work primarily in
the vi editor in Unix so there's your culture.

Moving to IT this summer was ok by me. Except for the desktops, our
Information Technology Division is all Unix, Oracle. And although
anything's possible, I took their background to be a good omen.

Now when my boss told me to get some supporting material for Perl
together, I still think we're ok. 1.) At least Perl is still in the
running. That says a lot for a language from the Open Source world. 2.)
I'm thinking Java would make a good move for a guy like me. It would
also keep our web site in the right "world" for years to come.

By comparison, the wrong "world" would be, in my opinion, endless
variations on all the web solutions that seem to come and go with the
seasons.

So my boss asked particularly for magazine articles and that's what I'm
trying to dig up for him. It's his call what he wants to bring to their
meeting.

Our IT staff has a number of programmers who want to work on the web
site. Do they want to learn Perl? I doubt it. It's likely they already
have a Java background. It was interesting what Joel wrote about the
Perl DBI (which we use) vs Java in that case. I know we could be better
programmers too and so new blood would be a good thing in that sense.

They're going to try their hand at our Intranet as a test case. My boss
told me once they get laughed out of the water with cheesy graphics,
they'll probably say the heck with it. Well who really knows until it
happens. But I do know that a business with so much invested in graphic
talent is pretty harsh when web sites aren't both graphically and
functionally appealing.

I saw Dominus speak this summer in Montreal. He's very interesting.
Perl's great for many things. Well it's incredible at text manipulation.
But you have to be flexible in programming.

-- Chuck Williams


===================================


>From Chuck Williams:

My boss asked me to find some supportive Perl material for him to pass
at an IT meeting.



Joel Wrote:

Honestly, what you'll probably find is that for certain kinds of work
Java is better suited, and for others, Perl is better suited.
For example, I have a hard time imagining Java being better than Perl
for sysadmin scripting type work.  But for larger, OO-architected
systems, Java is likely a better choice than Perl (not that you can't
do it in Perl, but Java is probably a better fit).

Since both Java and Perl can work for many kinds of projects, I suspect
a greater consideration may be which language most of the developers
are familiar with - or maybe how much infrastructure (code libraries,
APIs, app frameworks, etc.) your company has already built in either
language.

If you're going to be be doing a lot of interaction with Oracle, the
Perl DBI is really quite nice (and the DBD::Oracle driver is solid).
IMHO, JDBC is kinda painful to use by comparison.

I would also caution you against basing any decision solely on articles
because then you are opening yourself up to doing what the marketeers
would have you do.

The amount of code you have to write in Java is significantly greater:
http://www.twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/rant/python-vs-java.html

This "Tale of Five Languages" is amusing:
http://www.python.org/doc/langquest.html

Here's an article entitled "What's wrong with Perl" that favors Python
over Perl, but also mentions Java a little along the way:
http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/text/perl.html

Here's an old article about Java and Perl:
http://www.perl.com/pub/a/language/versus/java.html

Here's a good comparison of languages to Python from Python's primary
author:
http://python.bilkent.edu.tr/doc/essays/comparisons.html



>From Matthew:

  I tend to agree, but the problem is convincing folks that there is
more
than one way to do it.  Management is probably  more familiar with
terms like "Homogenous Assignment" than code, so I'd try explaining
that langauges are like people.

I'd also do some research in the area of learning/teaching/improving
in multiple languages is better long-term.

If switching to Java Means re-writing code, I'd check out:
   http://www.joelonsoftware.com/stories/storyReader$47


http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html


>From Bill Day:
We remain primarily C++ shop with some Perl, because that is the culture
of the
programmers who do the work.



>From Steve Poling:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/stories/storyReader$47

I try to be pragmatic and ecclectic. Different languages solve different

problems more or less graciously. UI-centric applications are more
quickly
prototyped in VB. C/C++ applications are more modular.

M$ propaganda says .NET is being all things to all people. One may be
able
to craft applications where different modules are implemented in
different
languages. Perl for text/string/data munging, VB for snappy UIs, C/C++
for
heavy algorithms, and C# to make Bill Gates richer. This may seem evil
to
people who think one language should do it all. Time will tell.

Think back on "throwing it all away" when changing languages is a
strategic
goal. In the .NET world, you can evolve between languages one module at
a
time.