From perl at minty.org  Thu Mar  3 10:24:21 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 18:24:21 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
Message-ID: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

Was mentioning this to Aaron at the last meeting

    http://www.elasticsearch.org/videos/2011/02/25/phpuk.html

I've not used it as yet, but elasticsearch looks positively the mutts nuts.

It's Java under the hood btw, but the entire point is you shouldn't need to
care.  And it scales.

Who's coming to Glasgow on the 10th btw?  I'm doing a silly non-Perl mini talk,
should that make any odds.

Murray.

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Thu Mar  3 10:46:46 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 18:46:46 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>

On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 06:24:21PM +0000, Murray wrote:
> Who's coming to Glasgow on the 10th btw?  I'm doing a silly non-Perl
> mini talk,

I'm planning to be there, and I'd even had an idea for a talk, but then
the bottom fell out of that project this morning. Anyone know any good
algorithms for solving integer programming problems where the variables
(but not the coefficients) must be 0 or 1?

Miles

-- 
The perfect programming language is mathematics, but that only runs on
mathematicians.
  -- Cale, on #haskell

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Sat Mar  5 05:35:49 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 13:35:49 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=yHAsqtzWzcc+-i_Dd3_q60CA0T+q6t+8sQggy@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 06:24:21PM +0000, Murray wrote:
>> Who's coming to Glasgow on the 10th btw? ?I'm doing a silly non-Perl
>> mini talk,
>
> I'm planning to be there,

Me too, and I'll be doing a short talk on an aspect of OO language
design, with reference to Perl.

> and I'd even had an idea for a talk, but then
> the bottom fell out of that project this morning.

That's OK, you can explain it all in the pub afterwards. :-)

> Anyone know any good
> algorithms for solving integer programming problems where the variables
> (but not the coefficients) must be 0 or 1?

Isn't that NP-hard, even with the restriction that the variables must be binary?

How many variables are you dealing with?  O(2**n) can be tractable,
given sufficiently small n and constant factors...

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Sat Mar  5 10:18:57 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 18:18:57 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=yHAsqtzWzcc+-i_Dd3_q60CA0T+q6t+8sQggy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTi=yHAsqtzWzcc+-i_Dd3_q60CA0T+q6t+8sQggy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110305181857.GC6357@assyrian.org.uk>

> > Anyone know any good
> > algorithms for solving integer programming problems where the variables
> > (but not the coefficients) must be 0 or 1?
> 
> Isn't that NP-hard, even with the restriction that the variables must
> be binary?

I'm not sure. It's certainly NP-hard without that restriction. Even with
the restriction it feels like it should be easy to convert into some
kind of satisfiability problem.

> How many variables are you dealing with?  O(2**n) can be tractable,
> given sufficiently small n and constant factors...

Hmmmmmmm. That depends on the question the user wants answered,
unfortunately. Average case is probably about 20-30, worst case is about
80. It might be worth cacheing the worst-case calculation, because
that's the one everyone's going to try first to test the site out :-)

I should probably explain the actual problem at this point. In rock
climbing, it's common to protect climbs with spring-loaded camming
devices (or just "cams" for short). You insert a cam into a handy crack
in the rock, clip your rope to it and then climb past; if you fall, then
the downward force on the cam will cause it to bite harder into the rock
and arrest your fall. Modern cams can literally hold the weight of a
car:

http://www.dmmclimbing.com/video.asp?id=2

Cams revolutionised rock climbing when they were invented in the 70s:
suddenly, loads of routes were merely scary instead of unprotectable
death routes. But there are two problems with cams: they're expensive
and heavy. Well, make that three problems: each cam can only grip cracks
whose width is within a given range, so your "rack" needs to contain
cams of the correct sizes for your route. Here's an investigation of
current cams on the market, and a calculation of their
weight-efficiency.

http://www.summitpost.org/size-matters-a-gear-comparison/694359

But, I thought, this sounds like a linear programming problem. We just
need to ask a user what range of cracks they're likely to want to
protect (to a first approximation, this is a feature of the crag and
rock type you're climbing on), and then we can use MATHS!!!!11!!7!! to
calculate the minimum-weight set of cams that covers that range. Treat
each 1mm range as a binary coefficient (we need to protect 203-204mm
cracks/we don't need to), treat each type of cam as a variable, have
"sum of weights" as our objective function, and throw Algorithm::Simplex
at it. Even better, we could use "sum of costs" as our objective
function to get the cheapest possible rack, or a linear combination of
the two (obtained by asking the user "how much would you pay to shave
10g off your rack?") and get a personalised "best rack for you"
calculation.

Then I realised that Algorithm::Simplex would probably tell me to buy
2/7 of a Black Diamond #4 and 1/3 of a DMM #3, and that this would be
precisely no use to me. So I googled for "integer programming", and
discovered that this was NP-hard :-(

So, anyway. We can restrict to cams whose range intersects with the
range of interest; this would throw out a lot. We might be able to throw
out cams that are overly-heavy or prohibitively expensive in the user's
locale, though this would be tricky. And we can coalesce ranges to
minimise the number of coefficients to consider. But that still leaves
us with an uncomfortably large n for an O(2**n) search.

Thoughts?

Miles

-- 
Oh god, you're patient zero aren't you? Let the feline-avian viral
apocalypse commence! And just in time for the weekend, too.
  -- Richard Morgan

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Sat Mar  5 11:35:33 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 19:35:33 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <20110305181857.GC6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTi=yHAsqtzWzcc+-i_Dd3_q60CA0T+q6t+8sQggy@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110305181857.GC6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=OnGn3cCwmOEWZ+ETC=KXpL_x_CnX+qH_eOPCq@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
>> Isn't that NP-hard, even with the restriction that the variables must
>> be binary?
>
> I'm not sure. It's certainly NP-hard without that restriction.

*surreptitiously checks Wikipedia*

Yes, it's still NP-hard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming#Integer_unknowns says:

"Binary integer programming (BIP) is the special case of integer
programming where variables are required to be 0 or 1 (rather than
arbitrary integers). This problem is also classified as NP-hard, and
in fact the decision version was one of Karp's 21 NP-complete
problems."

>> How many variables are you dealing with?
>
> Hmmmmmmm. That depends on the question the user wants answered,
> unfortunately. Average case is probably about 20-30, worst case is about
> 80.

Ouch.  20 sounds fine for exhaustive search, 30 probably not, and 80
is well into "give up and choose a different hobby" territory.

I was hoping it would be some nice easy problem in register
allocation, or something ? you won't find many CPUs with more than 16
general-purpose registers. :-)

> It might be worth cacheing the worst-case calculation, because
> that's the one everyone's going to try first to test the site out :-)

Yes, that's a good idea.

Further, the answers are all going to be quite small ? 80 bits if you
encode them carefully enough.  Given that, and assuming this is a
public service, it's almost certainly worth caching every answer you
ever emit, just on the off chance someone else wants it in the future.
 Like the same user coming back again the next day.

> a personalised "best rack for you" calculation

You might also consider letting users tell you which cams they already
have; each additional such piece of information halves the size of the
search space.

> We can restrict to cams whose range intersects with the
> range of interest; this would throw out a lot.

Yes.

> We might be able to throw
> out cams that are overly-heavy or prohibitively expensive in the user's
> locale, though this would be tricky.

If you can get additional constraints of the form "maximum rack weight
is X", that certainly lets you discard cams which are individually
heavier than that.  But I fear that's unlikely to be practical ? for
one thing, I bet there aren't many people who'd impose a rack weight
smaller than the weight of many commercially available cams.  Or do
you mean something cleverer than that?

> And we can coalesce ranges to
> minimise the number of coefficients to consider. But that still leaves
> us with an uncomfortably large n for an O(2**n) search.

Yes.

> Thoughts?

The Wikipedia article says that there are efficient algorithms if the
constraint matrix is, like, totally unimodular, but I didn't bother
following the link to that definition, so I don't know whether this
problem meets that condition.  It also mentions some "advanced
algorithms" for solving integer LP problems; maybe one of those will
work for you.

I have a vague idea for a heuristic, but I've no idea if it will
actually work in practice.  First solve it as a real-valued?
linear-programming problem, restricting each variable to the 0 < x ? 1
range.  Then take all the cams which came out in the answer, and if
there are few enough, do an exhaustive search over them.  That might
not produce a feasible answer, of course. :-(

? Yes, yes, I know: floating-point numbers are rationals, not reals.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Sun Mar  6 00:37:55 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 08:37:55 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=OnGn3cCwmOEWZ+ETC=KXpL_x_CnX+qH_eOPCq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTi=yHAsqtzWzcc+-i_Dd3_q60CA0T+q6t+8sQggy@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110305181857.GC6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTi=OnGn3cCwmOEWZ+ETC=KXpL_x_CnX+qH_eOPCq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110306083755.GD6357@assyrian.org.uk>

On Sat, Mar 05, 2011 at 07:35:33PM +0000, Aaron Crane wrote:
> "Binary integer programming (BIP) is the special case of integer
> programming where variables are required to be 0 or 1 (rather than
> arbitrary integers). This problem is also classified as NP-hard, and
> in fact the decision version was one of Karp's 21 NP-complete
> problems."

Curses!

> Ouch.  20 sounds fine for exhaustive search, 30 probably not, and 80
> is well into "give up and choose a different hobby" territory.

Yep. Well, it's into "throw a GA at it and hope" territory, anyway.

> I was hoping it would be some nice easy problem in register
> allocation, or something ? you won't find many CPUs with more than 16
> general-purpose registers. :-)

Hmmmm. It *might* be possible to adapt a register-allocation algorithm,
somehow, but I'd have to think about that for a bit.

[Aside: Mike O'Boyle's compilers course has a wonderful slide in it,
which looks roughly like this:

WHY ARE COMPILERS HARD?

front end -----> middle end ------> back end
   ^                ^                  ^
   |                |                  |
everything's     everything's       everything's
polynomial       undecidable        NP-hard       ]

> Further, the answers are all going to be quite small ? 80 bits if you
> encode them carefully enough.  Given that, and assuming this is a
> public service, it's almost certainly worth caching every answer you
> ever emit, just on the off chance someone else wants it in the future.
>  Like the same user coming back again the next day.

Excellent idea. We'd get decent reusability for the "weight is no
object" and "cost is no object" answers, at least.

> You might also consider letting users tell you which cams they already
> have; each additional such piece of information halves the size of the
> search space.

I'd want to do that anyway, to provide more relevant answers, but that's
an excellent point.

> > We can restrict to cams whose range intersects with the
> > range of interest; this would throw out a lot.
> Yes.

In particular, anything above fist-sized is considered specialist gear.

> > We might be able to throw
> > out cams that are overly-heavy or prohibitively expensive in the user's
> > locale, though this would be tricky.
> 
> If you can get additional constraints of the form "maximum rack weight
> is X", that certainly lets you discard cams which are individually
> heavier than that.  But I fear that's unlikely to be practical ? for
> one thing, I bet there aren't many people who'd impose a rack weight
> smaller than the weight of many commercially available cams.  Or do
> you mean something cleverer than that?

I didn't really have a concrete idea here - I guess I was thinking if
Manufacturer X and Manufacturer Y make cams covering the same range, but
Manufacturer X's is lighter, then we can exclude consideration of
Manufacturer Y's entirely. But I don't know how common that situation
is, and I'd guess it's quite rare.

> The Wikipedia article says that there are efficient algorithms if the
> constraint matrix is, like, totally unimodular, but I didn't bother
> following the link to that definition, so I don't know whether this
> problem meets that condition.

I skimmed it, and I don't think it applies here.

> It also mentions some "advanced algorithms" for solving integer LP
> problems; maybe one of those will work for you.
> 
> I have a vague idea for a heuristic, but I've no idea if it will
> actually work in practice.
[snip]

Actually, it looks like the "branch-and-cut" algorithm is a more
sophisticated version of your approach:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_and_cut

That looks worth a go, anyway.

Miles

-- 
There is no such thing as luck, only skillz.
  -- Great Teacher Largo

From robrwo at gmail.com  Sun Mar  6 04:21:06 2011
From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg)
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 12:21:06 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] elastic search
In-Reply-To: <20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110303182421.GP7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110303184646.GV6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4D737C32.7080000@gmail.com>

On 03/03/11 18:46 Miles Gould wrote:

> I'm planning to be there, and I'd even had an idea for a talk, but then
> the bottom fell out of that project this morning. Anyone know any good
> algorithms for solving integer programming problems where the variables
> (but not the coefficients) must be 0 or 1?

Minion http://minion.sourceforge.net/

From antonio.bonifati at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 06:57:19 2011
From: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com (Antonio Bonifati)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:57:19 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] seeking collaboration for a scalable Perl
	web-scraping library
Message-ID: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>

Heya guys,
I just discovered your group and will take part in the meeting. 24th this month, right?

I have this newly born project and seeking after co-developers:

http://code.google.com/p/spidey/
http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-HtmlUnit-Spidey/
Get a quick taste here: http://code.google.com/p/spidey/wiki/QuickTutorial

Anyone interested in web harvesting and data extraction in Perl, all done the right way with proper JavaScript support? I cannot pay anything, it's all open-source but considering the high demand for scraping data from this unstructured Wild Wild Web it won't be difficult to find companies that will want to use this technology.

--
cheers / saluti
--
Antonio Bonifati (sysadmin, web programmer / sistemista, programmatore web)
English mobile: +44 7400977350
BLOG: http://antonio-bonifati.blogspot.com
My profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/antonio.bonifati

skype: antonio.bonifati
msn: ant at venus.deis.unical.it
gtalk: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com
--
There are no hard distinctions between what is real and what is unreal, nor between what is true and what is false. A thing is not necessarily either true or false; it can be both true and false. 
Harold Pinter

Non vi sono distinzioni nette tra ci? che ? reale e ci? che ? irreale, n? tra quello che ? vero e quello che ? falso. Una cosa non ? necessariamente vera o falsa, pu? essere sia vera che falsa allo stesso tempo

From perl at minty.org  Sun Mar 13 09:17:08 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:17:08 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] seeking collaboration for a scalable Perl
 web-scraping library
In-Reply-To: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
References: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110313161708.GA7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 01:57:19PM +0000, Antonio Bonifati wrote:
> I just discovered your group and will take part in the meeting. 24th this
> month, right?

Right.  http://cumberlandbar.co.uk/

> Anyone interested in web harvesting and data extraction in Perl, all done the
> right way with proper JavaScript support? I cannot pay anything, it's all
> open-source but considering the high demand for scraping data from this
> unstructured Wild Wild Web it won't be difficult to find companies that will
> want to use this technology.

I didn't know you could use Inline::Java in that way to then wrap HTMLUnit, and
thus get yourself a Perl driven JavaScript browser.  Quite nifty.

Although I'd still prefer something that could embed or wrap webkit or gecko
with enough glue to make them accessible from Perl and enough hooks to be able
to (ab)use the parsers & rendering/js engines.  Especially the HTML5 parser.

Murray.

From antonio.bonifati at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 12:45:25 2011
From: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com (Antonio Bonifati)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:45:25 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] seeking collaboration for a scalable Perl
 web-scraping library
In-Reply-To: <20110313161708.GA7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
	<20110313161708.GA7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20110313194525.ff6057a8.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>

> Although I'd still prefer something that could embed or wrap webkit or gecko
> with enough glue to make them accessible from Perl and enough hooks to be able
> to (ab)use the parsers & rendering/js engines.  Especially the HTML5 parser.

There is already a CPAN module for that: WWW::Mechanize::Firefox and maybe others
for other browsers like Microzoz Internet Exploder.

The trouble with screen scrapers is that they do not scale up and are unstable
and slower than headless browsers although they provide perfect emulation of
any browser quirks (misbehaviour and crashes included) since you are actually
using a real browser.

But take for example my company: they need to run hundreds of scrapers in parallel
nightly on a cheap server. What would happen on a Firefox with 100 tabs or
worse when opening 100 separate firefox instances? They end up using a lot of memory
and CPU time just for rendering pages that nobody will ever see.

Moreover in some of our products we need to do server-side real-time scraping
and thus we have to be quicker and lighter than a GUI browser.

As for HTML5 I haven't tested HtmlUnit but there is no documentation about it.
I suppose it is unsupported for now, especially advanced features. Now there are
only a few sites that use heavily HTML5 features and I have never come across one
at my workplace. If it spreads quickly that would be a problem, but according
to W3C it will become a recommendation in 2020, sigh! HTML5 is a bit better
structured than HTML4 but I bet that even with it JavaScript usage will make
a scraper's life difficult, because there is no neat separation between content
and presentation, is there?

In a nutshell I would still use headless browsers for massive web scraping and revert
to screen scraping only when unsupported features are required or CPU and memory footprint
is not a concern.

-- 
regards / saluti
--
Antonio Bonifati (sysadmin, web programmer / sistemista, programmatore web)
English mobile: +44 7400977350
BLOG: http://antonio-bonifati.blogspot.com
My profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/antonio.bonifati

skype: antonio.bonifati
msn: ant at venus.deis.unical.it
gtalk: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com
--
There are no hard distinctions between what is real and what is unreal, nor between what is true and what is false. A thing is not necessarily either true or false; it can be both true and false. 
Harold Pinter

Non vi sono distinzioni nette tra ci? che ? reale e ci? che ? irreale, n? tra quello che ? vero e quello che ? falso. Una cosa non ? necessariamente vera o falsa, pu? essere sia vera che falsa allo stesso tempo

From fontani at gmail.com  Mon Mar 14 11:03:29 2011
From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 18:03:29 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] seeking collaboration for a scalable Perl
 web-scraping library
In-Reply-To: <20110313194525.ff6057a8.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
References: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
	<20110313161708.GA7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110313194525.ff6057a8.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJMm84bfwZbCk0BR80U8qwqEC+SuSJrDoT8soN@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Antonio,

Maybe these are of interest if you're into scrapers and scraping:

  - http://hackshackersglasgow.eventbrite.com/
  - http://blog.scraperwiki.com/2011/02/22/new-event-hacks-hackers-glasgow-hhhglas/

It will be in Glasgow on the 25th this month.

<pitch>
You're more than welcome to bring a talk at the Glasgow.pm technical
meeting about any of the scraping stuff you do, as well!
</pitch>

Till soon
-marco-

-- 
Marco Fontani
Glasgow Perl Mongers - http://glasgow.pm.org/
Join the RackSpace Cloud at: http://www.rackspacecloud.com/277.html

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Mon Mar 14 15:30:54 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:30:54 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] seeking collaboration for a scalable Perl
 web-scraping library
In-Reply-To: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
References: <20110313135719.1a1e4aab.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinB19-rZCcqFpU1U-8TFjHOK+4ez0PZDiqap3oa@mail.gmail.com>

Antonio Bonifati <antonio.bonifati at gmail.com> wrote:
> I just discovered your group and will take part in the meeting. 24th this month, right?
> I have this newly born project and seeking after co-developers:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/spidey/
> http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-HtmlUnit-Spidey/

Sounds interesting.  Hope you can make it to the meeting next week ?
sounds like there could be some fruitful discussion on this sort of
thing.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From cyocum at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 07:43:48 2011
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:43:48 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
Message-ID: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>

Hi Guys,

I think it is that time of month again...

Chris

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From perl at minty.org  Mon Mar 21 09:29:05 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 16:29:05 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 02:43:48PM +0000, Chris Yocum wrote:
> I think it is that time of month again...

I should be there on thurs - I'll call and book a table from 6 for ~5 people.
Under my name.

From asmith9983 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 11:23:07 2011
From: asmith9983 at gmail.com (A Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:23:07 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm]  Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
	<20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinLd2AaWJVUccBpZvAZMPyW9aH2RhGr6ScAb_tF@mail.gmail.com>

Don't think I'll make it this month.


On 21 March 2011 16:29, Murray <perl at minty.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 02:43:48PM +0000, Chris Yocum wrote:
> > I think it is that time of month again...
>
> I should be there on thurs - I'll call and book a table from 6 for ~5
> people.
> Under my name.
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>
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From antonio.bonifati at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 14:50:43 2011
From: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com (Antonio Bonifati)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:50:43 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110322215043.a13d3989.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>

I'd like to take part. I am new! How long does it last usually? I could be half an hour late, ~7pm.
Is there a topic of the day already settled or I can propose sth?

-- 
regards / saluti
--
Antonio Bonifati (sysadmin, web programmer / sistemista, programmatore web)
English mobile: +44 7400977350
BLOG: http://antonio-bonifati.blogspot.com
My profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/antonio.bonifati

skype: antonio.bonifati
msn: ant at venus.deis.unical.it
gtalk: antonio.bonifati at gmail.com
--
There are no hard distinctions between what is real and what is unreal, nor between what is true and what is false. A thing is not necessarily either true or false; it can be both true and false. 
Harold Pinter

Non vi sono distinzioni nette tra ci? che ? reale e ci? che ? irreale, n? tra quello che ? vero e quello che ? falso. Una cosa non ? necessariamente vera o falsa, pu? essere sia vera che falsa allo stesso tempo

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Tue Mar 22 15:10:04 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:10:04 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <20110322215043.a13d3989.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
	<20110322215043.a13d3989.antonio.bonifati@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=HD1gpwB-ZVdUme_kLje4VL+deVG__x8bLJ+uK@mail.gmail.com>

Antonio Bonifati <antonio.bonifati at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to take part. I am new! How long does it last usually? I could be half an hour late, ~7pm.
> Is there a topic of the day already settled or I can propose sth?

Hi, Antonio.  It's a social meeting, so we don't really have a set
topic of conversation, just whatever people end up talking about.  And
don't worry about being there at the notional start time ? folk tend
to arrive and leave during the evening, so feel free to fit the
meeting in round the rest of your schedule.  Which means that, as for
how long it lasts, that's up to you (but it's reasonably common for
there still to be a few of us left at closing time, if that's what
you're looking for).

Looking forward to meeting you on Thursday!

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From perl at minty.org  Thu Mar 24 09:26:31 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:26:31 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
	<20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20110324162631.GH23122@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 04:29:05PM +0000, Murray wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 02:43:48PM +0000, Chris Yocum wrote:
> > I think it is that time of month again...
> 
> I should be there on thurs - I'll call and book a table from 6 for ~5 people.
> Under my name.

Table's booked from 6, but I probably won't be there until nearer 7.

From fontani at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 09:28:30 2011
From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:28:30 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <20110324162631.GH23122@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <4D876424.5030206@gmail.com>
	<20110321162904.GX7963@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110324162631.GH23122@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZXk8az8vT58kq3-xMHkiKHc8-bX+0pdc3ghao@mail.gmail.com>

>> I should be there on thurs - I'll call and book a table from 6 for ~5 people.
>> Under my name.
> Table's booked from 6, but I probably won't be there until nearer 7.

Glasgow will be joining you as well ;)

Miles and I will arrive at 1930 at the station... we count on being at
the pub by 8pm.

Till tonight
-marco-

-- 
Marco Fontani
Glasgow Perl Mongers - http://glasgow.pm.org/
Join the RackSpace Cloud at: http://www.rackspacecloud.com/277.html

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Thu Mar 31 05:04:11 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:04:11 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
Message-ID: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>

Brothers and/or sisters!

Today is the final Thursday of the month! I, like many of you, may
have ticked "no religion" on my census form so as to avoid discovery by
the Fourth-Thursdayite inquisitors, but tonight is the appointed night
for our secret libations. Is anyone available to meet and celebrate the
Dark Rite? If so, I could probably be persuaded to come through and
officiate.

Miles

PS As heretics, should we try to say nice things about Mercurial? :-)

-- 
Mortar fire is to be preferred, of course, to British sports fans.
  -- PJ O'Rourke

From perl at minty.org  Thu Mar 31 05:13:55 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:13:55 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20110331121354.GH23122@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 01:04:11PM +0100, Miles Gould wrote:
> Is anyone available to meet and celebrate the Dark Rite

whilst often in the mood for beer, I fear previous unspeakable obligations mean
I shall be unable to attend.

M.

From cyocum at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 05:24:31 2011
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:24:31 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>

Sure, I am meeting friends at 6pm for Coffee (and NOT BEER?!).  Where do
you want to officiate our dark arts?

On 31/03/11 13:04, Miles Gould wrote:
> Brothers and/or sisters!
> 
> Today is the final Thursday of the month! I, like many of you, may
> have ticked "no religion" on my census form so as to avoid discovery by
> the Fourth-Thursdayite inquisitors, but tonight is the appointed night
> for our secret libations. Is anyone available to meet and celebrate the
> Dark Rite? If so, I could probably be persuaded to come through and
> officiate.
> 
> Miles
> 
> PS As heretics, should we try to say nice things about Mercurial? :-)
> 

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From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Thu Mar 31 05:28:17 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:28:17 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimU0UPODvH6kp913vWHHoiYNupqoxzo079L_2NX@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> Is anyone available to meet and celebrate the Dark Rite?

I think I can probably make it tonight...

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Thu Mar 31 06:06:25 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:06:25 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110331130625.GS6357@assyrian.org.uk>

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 01:24:31PM +0100, Chris Yocum wrote:
> Sure, I am meeting friends at 6pm for Coffee (and NOT BEER?!).  Where do
> you want to officiate our dark arts?

Someone was telling me that Doctors do a discount for anyone with (or
working towards) a PhD. Can anyone confirm this?

Miles

-- 
One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious.
  -- Chateaubriand

From divot.powell at googlemail.com  Thu Mar 31 06:15:40 2011
From: divot.powell at googlemail.com (Daniel Powell)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:15:40 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3_jc3Wr8i6M-T9m+1qYdvkH84eW9ivxmUXtsH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>
	<20110331130625.GS6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTin3_jc3Wr8i6M-T9m+1qYdvkH84eW9ivxmUXtsH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinAmgcgiK=q6vXmeezM462fD14sPG7Zx+4GFj0O@mail.gmail.com>

I might be available later.

Someone was telling me that Doctors do a discount for anyone with (or
> working towards) a PhD. Can anyone confirm this?
>

Those working towards, yep. Those who have, I'm not so sure. You need to
have a student id, but if you have an Edinburgh staff card you can probably
get away with it too.

Cheers,

Dan


-- 
--------
Daniel Powell
d.c.powell at sms.ed.ac.uk

The University of Edinburgh
Institute for Computer Systems Architecture
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From perl at minty.org  Thu Mar 31 06:16:16 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:16:16 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <20110331130625.GS6357@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>
	<20110331130625.GS6357@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20110331131616.GI23122@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 02:06:25PM +0100, Miles Gould wrote:
> Someone was telling me that Doctors do a discount for anyone with (or
> working towards) a PhD. Can anyone confirm this?

And with discount, is it cheaper than the Cumberlands guest ale(s?) at
?2.50/pint.

:)

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Thu Mar 31 10:31:16 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:31:16 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretics meet?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinAmgcgiK=q6vXmeezM462fD14sPG7Zx+4GFj0O@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110331120411.GQ6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<4D94727F.2030407@gmail.com>
	<20110331130625.GS6357@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTin3_jc3Wr8i6M-T9m+1qYdvkH84eW9ivxmUXtsH@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinAmgcgiK=q6vXmeezM462fD14sPG7Zx+4GFj0O@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110331173116.GB6357@assyrian.org.uk>

I've booked a table at Doctors from 1930 under my name. C and I will
probably be along at about 2000.

Miles

-- 
Music is everybody's possession. It's only the publishers who think
people own it.
  -- John Lennon