From fontani at gmail.com  Wed Jan  5 05:55:06 2011
From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:55:06 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm Call for Talks January 2011
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUMv=DUhC5cMd3RXbe2UHNaJFsRyVAwRvENYPe@mail.gmail.com>

Happy new year everybody!

The first meeting of the Glasgow Perl Mongers for 2011 is nearing.

Our next meeting will be 2011-01-13, at the usual venue.

We did not have a meeting last month due to the extreme weather
conditions across Scotland, which meant that several members could not
make it.

I apologize again if this was communicated a bit too late :(

I believe Miles was preparing a talk on the hackaton we attended back
in November, and I have a couple talks I will be able to present (LPW
2010, and others).

In order to start 2011 with the right foot, does anybody else have a
talk they'd like to present?

Even a 5-minute lightning talk would be greatly appreciated, so don't
be shy: eight days are more than enough to create a 5-minute talk :)

As always please advise myself/the list if you'd like to present a
talk, so I can update the website and so people know what to expect on
our next meeting.

In other news, we're trying to merge the Edinburgh Dynamic Languages
conference with another event likely happening at roughly the same
time. More news on this at the next monthly meeting.

I wish you a very happy new year, and look forward to hearing from you soon,
-marco-

-- 
Marco Fontani
Glasgow Perl Mongers - http://glasgow.pm.org/
Join the RackSpace Cloud at: http://www.rackspacecloud.com/277.html

From perl at minty.org  Fri Jan 21 02:20:39 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:20:39 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
Message-ID: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

My sources [1] tell me that on 27th Jan 1926, "John Baird, a Scottish inventor,
demonstrated a pictorial transmission machine called television".

This would seem like an auspicious reason, where one needed, to celebrate and
consume beverage.  As it happens, 27th Jan (next thursday) is also the 4th
thursday of the month, meaning edinburgh.pm.

I've been rather lax in my attendance of late, but nothing a new years
resolution can't fix.  More edinburgh.pm beer!

So does anyone else want to just switch off your television set and go out and
do something less boring instead? [2]

[1] http://on-this-day.com/onthisday/thedays/alldays/jan27.htm
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Don%27t_You%3F

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 05:50:57 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 13:50:57 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsn_Wjq+Zne_8-_Hd67Jbqvxqgmarbg3jJ=nPM@mail.gmail.com>

Murray <perl at minty.org> wrote:
> 27th Jan
> edinburgh.pm

I plan to be there, all being well.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From cyocum at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 06:22:04 2011
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:22:04 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinsn_Wjq+Zne_8-_Hd67Jbqvxqgmarbg3jJ=nPM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<AANLkTinsn_Wjq+Zne_8-_Hd67Jbqvxqgmarbg3jJ=nPM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D39968C.5060305@gmail.com>

I plan to be there as well.

Chris

On 21/01/11 13:50, Aaron Crane wrote:
> Murray <perl at minty.org> wrote:
>> 27th Jan
>> edinburgh.pm
> 
> I plan to be there, all being well.
> 

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From divot.powell at googlemail.com  Fri Jan 21 08:01:32 2011
From: divot.powell at googlemail.com (Daniel Powell)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:01:32 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinkedx3xEcau7OAC1N3qozN-=36fopHz5quqSzJ@mail.gmail.com>

Shall be there too...

Dan

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Murray <perl at minty.org> wrote:

> My sources [1] tell me that on 27th Jan 1926, "John Baird, a Scottish
> inventor,
> demonstrated a pictorial transmission machine called television".
>
> This would seem like an auspicious reason, where one needed, to celebrate
> and
> consume beverage.  As it happens, 27th Jan (next thursday) is also the 4th
> thursday of the month, meaning edinburgh.pm.
>
> I've been rather lax in my attendance of late, but nothing a new years
> resolution can't fix.  More edinburgh.pm beer!
>
> So does anyone else want to just switch off your television set and go out
> and
> do something less boring instead? [2]
>
> [1] http://on-this-day.com/onthisday/thedays/alldays/jan27.htm
> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Don%27t_You%3F
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>



-- 
--------
Daniel Powell
d.c.powell at sms.ed.ac.uk

The University of Edinburgh
Institute for Computer Systems Architecture
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From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Fri Jan 21 08:15:16 2011
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:15:16 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:20:39AM +0000, Murray wrote:
> My sources [1] tell me that on 27th Jan 1926, "John Baird, a Scottish
> inventor, demonstrated a pictorial transmission machine called
> television".

It'll never catch on - the word is half Greek and half Latin.

> This would seem like an auspicious reason, where one needed, to celebrate and
> consume beverage.  As it happens, 27th Jan (next thursday) is also the 4th
> thursday of the month, meaning edinburgh.pm.

Alas, I can't make it to either - I'll be at a party in Glasgow tonight,
and recovering from a day's winter climbing in Aviemore next Thursday.
Have a good time without me, though :-)

However, I'm through in Edinburgh the following Saturday morning for
Green Party stuff*, and it would be great to see folk thereafter...

Miles

* The Scottish Green Party, being into participatory democracy, has a
randomly-chosen party member on every party committee. Hence, despite
having been a member for less than a year and having attended about
three branch meetings, I've been appointed to the party's senior
governing body... I think my role will be to keep quiet and nursemaid
the videoconferencing setup.

-- 
Alias: Just realised I have called everyone who owns a shiny modern SLR
a gorilla.
Mat: Meh. They won't notice, they're too busy with their multi-zoned
eye-tracking focusing systems. Ponces. We're much cooler than them.

From perl at minty.org  Sat Jan 22 04:15:54 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:15:54 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] ot: latex google docs
Message-ID: <20110122121554.GK29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

Is this news?

LaTeX equation shortcuts supported in Google Docs

http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=160749

From fontani at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 05:11:36 2011
From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 13:11:36 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] ot: latex google docs
In-Reply-To: <20110122121554.GK29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110122121554.GK29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin+HckCQMLBQVY52ySCf4Lo7ytDUQUy-VzgEVXq@mail.gmail.com>

> Is this news?
> LaTeX equation shortcuts supported in Google Docs

Been a while now, they recently introduced an astounding number of
features for the spreadsheets and documents too, and the ability to
use other documents as data sources for graphs, etc.

I take it it's one more reason for you to embrace Google docs for your
next presentation? ;)

BTW,
We're trying to coordinate with people organising an Erlang conference
- and possibly an O'Reilly Ignite - so that we'll be able to have a
greater audience for the Dynamic Languages conference.

It's likely Mark Keating will be in Edinburgh this Thursday (PM meet
day) and we'll both join you at the PM meeting ;)

Miles, are you coming too / need a lift?

Till soon,
-marco-

----
Glasgow Perl Mongers - http://glasgow.pm.org/
Join the RackSpace Cloud at: http://www.rackspacecloud.com/277.html

From perl at minty.org  Sat Jan 22 06:34:45 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 14:34:45 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

I've reserved a table (for ~6 people) from 6.30 at the cumberland bar, under
the name "Walker".  I'll be having some pub food there (kitchen open 'till 9).

http://cumberlandbar.co.uk/

From wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 11:07:56 2011
From: wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com (Wim Vanderbauwhede)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:07:56 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
	<20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikvEcY1wvzyZtf7f3QTiBQSm-UoRogKztti8jeo@mail.gmail.com>

I intend to be there as well

Wim

On 22 January 2011 14:34, Murray <perl at minty.org> wrote:
> I've reserved a table (for ~6 people) from 6.30 at the cumberland bar, under
> the name "Walker". ?I'll be having some pub food there (kitchen open 'till 9).
>
> http://cumberlandbar.co.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>



-- 
If it's pointless, what's the point?
If there is a point to it, what's the point?
(Tibor Fischer, "The Thought Gang")

From asmith9983 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 11:25:43 2011
From: asmith9983 at gmail.com (A Smith)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:25:43 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Miles
The words of an educated person. The rules are you don't mix Latin and
Greek. I discovered this recently when I queried the word tetrahedron,
asking why it wasn't a quadrahedron!
We can discuss whether this 20th century television thing about to be
totally superceded by sending the signal via the Internet rather than
through the Ether.  It does mean that  Mars Man won't be able to watch it,
unless he has a ultra-sensitive WiFi receiver.
See you folk Thursday.
--
Andrew

On 21 January 2011 16:15, Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:20:39AM +0000, Murray wrote:
> > My sources [1] tell me that on 27th Jan 1926, "John Baird, a Scottish
> > inventor, demonstrated a pictorial transmission machine called
> > television".
>
> It'll never catch on - the word is half Greek and half Latin.
>
> > This would seem like an auspicious reason, where one needed, to celebrate
> and
> > consume beverage.  As it happens, 27th Jan (next thursday) is also the
> 4th
> > thursday of the month, meaning edinburgh.pm.
>
> Alas, I can't make it to either - I'll be at a party in Glasgow tonight,
> and recovering from a day's winter climbing in Aviemore next Thursday.
> Have a good time without me, though :-)
>
> However, I'm through in Edinburgh the following Saturday morning for
> Green Party stuff*, and it would be great to see folk thereafter...
>
> Miles
>
> * The Scottish Green Party, being into participatory democracy, has a
> randomly-chosen party member on every party committee. Hence, despite
> having been a member for less than a year and having attended about
> three branch meetings, I've been appointed to the party's senior
> governing body... I think my role will be to keep quiet and nursemaid
> the videoconferencing setup.
>
> --
> Alias: Just realised I have called everyone who owns a shiny modern SLR
> a gorilla.
> Mat: Meh. They won't notice, they're too busy with their multi-zoned
> eye-tracking focusing systems. Ponces. We're much cooler than them.
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>
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From robrwo at gmail.com  Sun Jan 23 07:40:45 2011
From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:40:45 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D3C4BFD.6040903@gmail.com>

On 22/01/11 19:25 A Smith wrote:

> We can discuss whether this 20th century television thing about to be
> totally superceded by sending the signal via the Internet rather than
> through the Ether.

Wired internet may be superseded by wireless, so people can carry around the
vast wasteland with them. [1]

> It does mean that  Mars Man won't be able to watch it,
> unless he has a ultra-sensitive WiFi receiver.
> See you folk Thursday.

On Mars, there'll be too busy playing with their Perky Pat doll houses to
bother with television [2].

[1] http://is.gd/FakN3L

[2] http://is.gd/XP5L7Z

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Sun Jan 23 09:04:14 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:04:14 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoydcuY9Y1WrQhHUBeQnDhu=2JbtYdOYw_SzmM@mail.gmail.com>

A Smith <asmith9983 at gmail.com> wrote:
> We can discuss whether this 20th century television thing about to be
> totally superceded by sending the signal via the Internet rather than
> through the Ether.? It does mean that?Mars Man won't be able to watch it,
> unless he has a ultra-sensitive WiFi receiver.

Not even then.  The distance between us and Mars is never less than
about 54 gigametres, and goes up to 400 Gm or so.  The speed of light
is 1.8e12 furlongs per fortnight, or just shy of 300 Mm per second.
So the distance to Mars is in the range 180..1334 light seconds, and
therefore the minimum transmission time to Mars is 180..1334 seconds.
However, RFC 793 specifies a Maximum Segment Lifetime for TCP of 120
seconds; no TCP segment is permitted to be "active" in the
internetwork for more than 120 seconds.  So, by definition, we can't
do TCP to Mars. :-)

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From robrwo at gmail.com  Sun Jan 23 10:43:29 2011
From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:43:29 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimoydcuY9Y1WrQhHUBeQnDhu=2JbtYdOYw_SzmM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>	<AANLkTinKLbyEuqfhzuugurs40w2rUQWXWMtn8ryw83pM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimoydcuY9Y1WrQhHUBeQnDhu=2JbtYdOYw_SzmM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D3C76D1.8010904@gmail.com>


The network wouldn't use TCP/IP.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Interplanetary_Internet

On 23/01/11 17:04 Aaron Crane wrote:
> A Smith <asmith9983 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> We can discuss whether this 20th century television thing about to be
>> totally superceded by sending the signal via the Internet rather than
>> through the Ether.  It does mean that Mars Man won't be able to watch it,
>> unless he has a ultra-sensitive WiFi receiver.
> 
> Not even then.  The distance between us and Mars is never less than
> about 54 gigametres, and goes up to 400 Gm or so.  The speed of light
> is 1.8e12 furlongs per fortnight, or just shy of 300 Mm per second.
> So the distance to Mars is in the range 180..1334 light seconds, and
> therefore the minimum transmission time to Mars is 180..1334 seconds.
> However, RFC 793 specifies a Maximum Segment Lifetime for TCP of 120
> seconds; no TCP segment is permitted to be "active" in the
> internetwork for more than 120 seconds.  So, by definition, we can't
> do TCP to Mars. :-)
> 


From m.keating at shadowcat.co.uk  Mon Jan 24 03:09:07 2011
From: m.keating at shadowcat.co.uk (Mark Keating)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:09:07 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
	<20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4D3D5DD2.506@shadowcat.co.uk>

On 22/01/2011 14:34, Murray wrote:
> I've reserved a table (for ~6 people) from 6.30 at the cumberland bar, under
> the name "Walker".  I'll be having some pub food there (kitchen open 'till 9).
>
> http://cumberlandbar.co.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
It looks as if I will be in Edinburgh on Thursday at a meeting so may 
wander to your meeting after that, if no one refuses :), it is the 
nwe.pm meeting on the same day so no doubt I will endure some banter 
about deserting my own group.

-Mark (mdk)

-- 
Mark Keating BA (Hons)          |  Writer, Photographer, Cat-Herder
Managing Director               |  Shadowcat Systems Limited
Director/Secretary              |  Enlightened Perl Organisation
co-Leader                       |  North West England Perl Mongers
http://www.shadowcat.co.uk      |  http://www.enlightenedperl.org
http://northwestengland.pm.org  |  http://linkedin.com/in/markkeating


From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Mon Jan 24 03:15:29 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:29 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television
In-Reply-To: <4D3D5DD2.506@shadowcat.co.uk>
References: <20110121102039.GC29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<20110121161516.GE12351@assyrian.org.uk>
	<20110122143445.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>
	<4D3D5DD2.506@shadowcat.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim_m3yQkMxemLWKs3cKwULoN5mzYDY0Bmnv0K5s@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Keating <m.keating at shadowcat.co.uk> wrote:
> It looks as if I will be in Edinburgh on Thursday at a meeting so may wander
> to your meeting after that, if no one refuses :)

Excellent, looking forward to seeing you.

> it is the nwe.pm meeting
> on the same day so no doubt I will endure some banter about deserting my own
> group.

Just tell them that Edinburgh.pm is the One True .pm group, and you'll
be coming to all our meetings in future.  I'm sure that'll be fine.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From asmith9983 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 07:11:56 2011
From: asmith9983 at gmail.com (Andrew Smith)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:11:56 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
Message-ID: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>

H
as Microsoft really made the source code open source, or is that spin ?
If so, can we expect F# on Linux ?

The future is functional programming. I'm trying to decide now I've
pretty much mastered Haskell, whether to use my remaining brain cells
for OCAML, ERLANG or F#. Java has a  unknown future under Oracle, Perl 5
is surviving, Perl 6 dead in water.

Talk about it tonight at Cumberland ?


-- 
Andrew




From robrwo at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 13:50:39 2011
From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:50:39 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
Message-ID: <4D41E8AF.2030103@gmail.com>

On 27/01/11 15:11 Andrew Smith wrote:
> H
> as Microsoft really made the source code open source, or is that spin ?
> If so, can we expect F# on Linux ?

F# runs fine on Linux using Mono. Microsoft has a link to instructions here:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/cambridge/projects/fsharp/release.aspx

> The future is functional programming. I'm trying to decide now I've
> pretty much mastered Haskell, whether to use my remaining brain cells
> for OCAML, ERLANG or F#. Java has a  unknown future under Oracle, Perl 5
> is surviving, Perl 6 dead in water.

If you understand Haskell, OCaml, Erlang and F# are easy, as they still
allow side effects in some circumstances.

There's also Clojure (a version of Lisp that runs on the JRE, so it can use
Java libraries).

Java will probably continue for a long time, because there is so much
written for it and the runtime.

Why do you consider Perl 6 "dead in water"?


From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Fri Jan 28 04:14:36 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:14:36 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWvVC9bGPPeftiFTYSLwfV73RuqR-wS=2h-=Sd@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew Smith <asmith9983 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perl 6 [is] dead in water.

That seems an odd way to describe a language whose specification is
converging on a firm state, and whose most popular implementation is
being worked on by a growing team of dedicated volunteers at
ever-increasing velocity.

Anyone who's decided that Perl 6 does not meet their needs is, of
course, free to avoid using it.  But I think it's unreasonable to
badmouth the efforts of those who are working on it.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 04:25:40 2011
From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:25:40 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimWvVC9bGPPeftiFTYSLwfV73RuqR-wS=2h-=Sd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
	<AANLkTimWvVC9bGPPeftiFTYSLwfV73RuqR-wS=2h-=Sd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5osX_ASOWEogSwG00rMnLSo2taFWePSQ5h-cG@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 January 2011 12:14, Aaron Crane <perl at aaroncrane.co.uk> wrote:

> Andrew Smith <asmith9983 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Perl 6 [is] dead in water.
>
> That seems an odd way to describe a language whose specification is
> converging on a firm state, and whose most popular implementation is
> being worked on by a growing team of dedicated volunteers at
> ever-increasing velocity.
>
> Anyone who's decided that Perl 6 does not meet their needs is, of
> course, free to avoid using it.  But I think it's unreasonable to
> badmouth the efforts of those who are working on it.
>

I don't think that suggesting Perl 6 is irrelevant is equivalent
to badmouthing the excellent efforts of the volunteers working
on it.

Perl 6 has given us, among other things:

   * greater crossover between Perl and Haskell communities
   * some great innovations, many of which have been implemented in Perl 5

But it's also:

   * lost a lot of passion, interest, and face, by virtue of being so
   big, and so late.
   * I understand all the reasons it's so big, and so late, but the
    greatest emotion I feel when speaking about Perl 6 is usually
   irritation at having to be mocked about it by people outside of
   the Perl echo chamber.

When Perl 6 is released, how many companies will move their
codebase to Perl 6?
I think many of us are more likely to remain Perl 5 programmers
than become Perl 6 programmers, professionally.

(And I sometimes think, semi-seriously, that I'm more likely to
become a professional Haskell programmer than a Perl 6 one.
I suspect this shows up the extent of the problem ;-)

osf'
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From oinksocket at letterboxes.org  Fri Jan 28 04:48:32 2011
From: oinksocket at letterboxes.org (Nick)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:48:32 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <4D41E8AF.2030103@gmail.com>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1> <4D41E8AF.2030103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D42BB20.1010802@letterboxes.org>

On 27/01/11 21:50, Robert Rothenberg wrote:
> There's also Clojure (a version of Lisp that runs on the JRE, so it can use
> Java libraries).

Clojure is interesting. It's not just another Lisp or Scheme port to the JVM,
it's somewhat innovative. I rather enjoyed watching the Clojure talks here:

  http://clojure.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc

Particularly "Clojure for Lisp programmers". But be warned, it's about two hours
long!

There's also Scala, which is another language which targets the JVM.  Has type
inference, and it claims to integrate FP and OO in a way that "works".  Also has
traits, as seen in Perl6.

N

From perl at minty.org  Fri Jan 28 04:55:10 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:55:10 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <4D42BB20.1010802@letterboxes.org>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1> <4D41E8AF.2030103@gmail.com>
	<4D42BB20.1010802@letterboxes.org>
Message-ID: <20110128125509.GH29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 12:48:32PM +0000, Nick wrote:
> There's also Scala, which is another language which targets the JVM.  Has type
> inference, and it claims to integrate FP and OO in a way that "works".  Also has
> traits, as seen in Perl6.

Also (is/was?) used by Twitter to overcome some of their previous performance
hiccups

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/01/twitter_on_scala/

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Fri Jan 28 10:05:39 2011
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:05:39 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5osX_ASOWEogSwG00rMnLSo2taFWePSQ5h-cG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
	<AANLkTimWvVC9bGPPeftiFTYSLwfV73RuqR-wS=2h-=Sd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5osX_ASOWEogSwG00rMnLSo2taFWePSQ5h-cG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimhNFqPgnudzHeC11-n8zJS2p003eEf_E5h8v9m@mail.gmail.com>

Hakim Cassimally <hakim.cassimally at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think that suggesting Perl 6 is irrelevant is equivalent
> to badmouthing?the excellent efforts of the volunteers working
> on it.

You're right.  Andrew, I apologise for mischaracterising what you said.

Even so, I still think it's unreasonable to describe Perl 6 as "dead
in the water" without qualification.  There are plenty of people whose
needs Perl 6 doesn't meet right now, and there may well be some whose
needs it never meets.  But it is nonetheless a long way from dead ? it
is in fact growing fast.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From asmith9983 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 10:37:38 2011
From: asmith9983 at gmail.com (A Smith)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:37:38 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] F#
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5osX_ASOWEogSwG00rMnLSo2taFWePSQ5h-cG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1296141116.8666.486.camel@amd64-ws1>
	<AANLkTimWvVC9bGPPeftiFTYSLwfV73RuqR-wS=2h-=Sd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5osX_ASOWEogSwG00rMnLSo2taFWePSQ5h-cG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKxGE_pjmXEVFgyreLP_oa9sL25zZhLfkCrVfy@mail.gmail.com>

Your last paragraph is where I'm coming from. I never was a great
programmer, but I need to understand the programming toolkit, to ensure  I
can get software written which is robust,reliable anbd maintainable. Java
will be around for a long time due to its installed base and teaching
courses. I'm sure the People working on Perl 6 are committed to producing a
quality product, as is  almost everyone  working on a software project. Its
not possible for anyone to be an experienced expert on all software tools,
so  we need to focus our attention on those  where we can gain experience.
I  was trying to get a view as to whether F#  was likely to become a
language on all platforms if it had been fully open sourced. I obviously
poked a hornets nest!

On my personal learning curve, I am almost swayed to write a Haskell program
rather than a bash script on my Linux workstation,  as it nearly always
works correctly if I can get it past GHC! Always my fault,never GHC.
--
Andrew

On 28 January 2011 12:25, Hakim Cassimally <hakim.cassimally at gmail.com>wrote:

> On 28 January 2011 12:14, Aaron Crane <perl at aaroncrane.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Smith <asmith9983 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Perl 6 [is] dead in water.
>>
>> That seems an odd way to describe a language whose specification is
>> converging on a firm state, and whose most popular implementation is
>> being worked on by a growing team of dedicated volunteers at
>> ever-increasing velocity.
>>
>> Anyone who's decided that Perl 6 does not meet their needs is, of
>> course, free to avoid using it.  But I think it's unreasonable to
>> badmouth the efforts of those who are working on it.
>>
>
> I don't think that suggesting Perl 6 is irrelevant is equivalent
> to badmouthing the excellent efforts of the volunteers working
> on it.
>
> Perl 6 has given us, among other things:
>
>    * greater crossover between Perl and Haskell communities
>    * some great innovations, many of which have been implemented in Perl 5
>
> But it's also:
>
>    * lost a lot of passion, interest, and face, by virtue of being so
>    big, and so late.
>    * I understand all the reasons it's so big, and so late, but the
>     greatest emotion I feel when speaking about Perl 6 is usually
>    irritation at having to be mocked about it by people outside of
>    the Perl echo chamber.
>
> When Perl 6 is released, how many companies will move their
> codebase to Perl 6?
> I think many of us are more likely to remain Perl 5 programmers
> than become Perl 6 programmers, professionally.
>
> (And I sometimes think, semi-seriously, that I'm more likely to
> become a professional Haskell programmer than a Perl 6 one.
> I suspect this shows up the extent of the problem ;-)
>
> osf'
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>
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From perl at minty.org  Fri Jan 28 12:27:11 2011
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:27:11 +0000
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Happy Birthday Television [picture]
Message-ID: <20110128202711.GL29375@mooker.vm.bytemark.co.uk>

Had a great time -- and perhaps the busiest edinburgh.pm evvah?

Mark very kindly shared the picture he took:

    http://minty.org/pm/200101.jpg

With the caveat that ... "I of course give you guys exclusive rights
to use this, though not commercially (unless you ask nicely) :)"