From perl at minty.org Fri Oct 1 14:39:18 2010 From: perl at minty.org (Murray) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:39:18 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] OT Image Analysis / OCR Message-ID: <20101001213918.GO19993@minty.org> Hope heretic was fun :) I'm at a bit of a loss where to start on this, so any suggestions welcome. It's basically an image processing and OCR problem. A while back I got an electricity meter -- it measures the total household usage, requires no wiring and can be plugged into a computer for fun graphing applications. I'd highly recommend them. http://www.currentcost.com/ (I have an older model) Fwiw, we avg ~10 kWh/day, or roughly about ?1/day. Then I realised that saving electricity is all well and good, but it's a relatively small fraction of our energy usage. Gas being the big elephant in the room (mainly for heating). So I'd like to measure our gas usage, daily or preferably hourly. Unless someone knows of a no-hassle, no-pipework gas monitor, I hit upon the wheeze of getting a cheap webcam [1] and placing it in front of the gas meter and capturing an image. Here are a couple of test samples: http://minty.org/gas/a.png http://minty.org/gas/b.png I've cropped the pictures to show just the meter. Basically the problem is how do I convert those into "6500" or better "6500.96". Bonus marks for additionally converting the red arrow/dial (although I suspect that might actually be easier). The best I've found so far open source ocr is http://code.google.com/p/tesseract-ocr/ I'm not entirely against just running a brute force approach in Perl using known tiles and looking for "fuzzy" but likely matches. But I'm wondering if anyone has a smarter idea? Some points of note: - I can "fix" the camera, but as the cupboard is used periodically for storage, there is always a chance of a small knock. It'd be best to assume the camera position will move a small amount over time, but can be (roughly) hand-calibrated easily enough. - The meter has a glass front, causing horribly lens glare if the camera & it's led lights are placed straight on. Thus, the image is slightly skewed due to the camera being off-center. I could go up/down, left or right. It's in a dark cupboard with no other constant light source. - Between the "65" and the "00" is a chip in the glass. For this reason, positioning the camera to the left works better than to the right. Similarly, I'd imaging down would work better than up. - Worst case is automatic daily image capture and a yearly manual job of running through 365 images and re-keying the meter reading. But hourly would be a lot more fun, and that is probably beyond my re-keying capacity. Taking a weekly reading by hand and averaging over 7 days would be a decent approximation. However I'd like to log temperature too. I can get a close outside temp from the BBC [2] and the CurrentCost device logs the room temp. So a weekly average would loose a good amount of fidelity. Suggestions? [1] http://amzn.to/9OrpWW and I can confirm it works flawlessly on ubuntu and mac os x without needing any drivers. Truely plug n play. Only downside is you can't control the leds (or focus, or position) via the computer, but hey, they're leds, so we can leave them on all the time. A pending task is to measure the power consumption of the computer when idle with the camera plugged in and leds on, vs camera unplugged. [2] http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/data/WeatherFeeds?v=151i From wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 03:53:27 2010 From: wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com (Wim Vanderbauwhede) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 11:53:27 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] OT Image Analysis / OCR In-Reply-To: <20101001213918.GO19993@minty.org> References: <20101001213918.GO19993@minty.org> Message-ID: Did you actually try tesseract-ocr ? Is it not good enough? There is also http://jocr.sourceforge.net/ . Works fine on scans of letters etc. Wim On 1 October 2010 22:39, Murray wrote: > Hope heretic was fun :) > > I'm at a bit of a loss where to start on this, so any suggestions > welcome. ?It's basically an image processing and OCR problem. > > A while back I got an electricity meter -- it measures the total > household usage, requires no wiring and can be plugged into a computer > for fun graphing applications. ?I'd highly recommend them. > > ? ?http://www.currentcost.com/ (I have an older model) > > Fwiw, we avg ~10 kWh/day, or roughly about ?1/day. > > Then I realised that saving electricity is all well and good, but it's a > relatively small fraction of our energy usage. ?Gas being the big > elephant in the room (mainly for heating). > > So I'd like to measure our gas usage, daily or preferably hourly. > > Unless someone knows of a no-hassle, no-pipework gas monitor, I hit upon > the wheeze of getting a cheap webcam [1] and placing it in front of the > gas meter and capturing an image. ?Here are a couple of test samples: > > ? ?http://minty.org/gas/a.png > > ? ?http://minty.org/gas/b.png > > I've cropped the pictures to show just the meter. > > Basically the problem is how do I convert those into "6500" or better > "6500.96". ?Bonus marks for additionally converting the red arrow/dial > (although I suspect that might actually be easier). > > The best I've found so far open source ocr is > http://code.google.com/p/tesseract-ocr/ > > I'm not entirely against just running a brute force approach in > Perl using known tiles and looking for "fuzzy" but likely matches. > > But I'm wondering if anyone has a smarter idea? > > Some points of note: > > - I can "fix" the camera, but as the cupboard is used periodically for > ?storage, there is always a chance of a small knock. ?It'd be best to > ?assume the camera position will move a small amount over time, but can > ?be (roughly) hand-calibrated easily enough. > > - The meter has a glass front, causing horribly lens glare if the camera > ?& it's led lights are placed straight on. ?Thus, the image is slightly > ?skewed due to the camera being off-center. ?I could go up/down, left > ?or right. ?It's in a dark cupboard with no other constant light source. > > - Between the "65" and the "00" is a chip in the glass. ?For this > ?reason, positioning the camera to the left works better than to the > ?right. ?Similarly, I'd imaging down would work better than up. > > - Worst case is automatic daily image capture and a yearly manual job of > ?running through 365 images and re-keying the meter reading. ?But > ?hourly would be a lot more fun, and that is probably beyond my > ?re-keying capacity. > > Taking a weekly reading by hand and averaging over 7 days would be a > decent approximation. ?However I'd like to log temperature too. ?I can > get a close outside temp from the BBC [2] and the CurrentCost device > logs the room temp. ?So a weekly average would loose a good amount of > fidelity. > > Suggestions? > > [1] http://amzn.to/9OrpWW and I can confirm it works flawlessly on > ubuntu and mac os x without needing any drivers. ?Truely plug n play. > Only downside is you can't control the leds (or focus, or position) via > the computer, but hey, they're leds, so we can leave them on all the > time. > > A pending task is to measure the power consumption of the computer when > idle with the camera plugged in and leds on, vs camera unplugged. > > [2] http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/data/WeatherFeeds?v=151i > _______________________________________________ > Edinburgh-pm mailing list > Edinburgh-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm > -- If it's pointless, what's the point? If there is a point to it, what's the point? (Tibor Fischer, "The Thought Gang") From alex.brelsfoard at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 12:27:49 2010 From: alex.brelsfoard at gmail.com (Alex Brelsfoard) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:27:49 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Clicking Confirmation window in Perl Message-ID: Hiya all, Anyone know of a way to click "OK" (or "Cancel" for that matter) on a confirmation window when crawling a web page in perl? Right now I am using WWW::Mechanize to crawl some pages. At some point I get sent a confirmation window. And I don't know how to click "OK"... I am perfectly fine switching to another perl module if that's what it takes. I am trying WWW::Mechanize::Firefox right now but am running into difficulties as the server that this code is running on is NOT connected to any display. Thanks in advance for any aid. Cheers, --Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From miles at assyrian.org.uk Tue Oct 5 12:35:39 2010 From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:35:39 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Clicking Confirmation window in Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101005193539.GP25318@assyrian.org.uk> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:27:49PM +0100, Alex Brelsfoard wrote: > I am perfectly fine switching to another perl module if that's what it > takes. > > I am trying WWW::Mechanize::Firefox right now but am running into > difficulties as the server that this code is running on is NOT connected > to any display. You could try Test::WWW::Selenium, but it might have the same problem. Miles -- Music is everybody's possession. It's only the publishers who think people own it. -- John Lennon From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk Wed Oct 13 09:56:23 2010 From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:56:23 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow Message-ID: Our Glaswegian Perl-mongering siblingry are meeting tomorrow (Thursday 14th October). There will be several talks, apparently, including one from me: http://groups.google.com/group/glasgowpm/browse_thread/thread/1ddf27dfd0c43b87 I'll be taking the 17:03 train from Haymarket (leaves Waverley three minutes earlier) if anyone else is interested in coming along. -- Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/ From robrwo at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 10:00:38 2010 From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:00:38 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> Can't make it. :( By the way, Glasgow.pm is not in the Scottish Tech Calendar. On 13/10/10 17:56 Aaron Crane wrote: > Our Glaswegian Perl-mongering siblingry are meeting tomorrow (Thursday > 14th October). There will be several talks, apparently, including one > from me: > > http://groups.google.com/group/glasgowpm/browse_thread/thread/1ddf27dfd0c43b87 > > I'll be taking the 17:03 train from Haymarket (leaves Waverley three > minutes earlier) if anyone else is interested in coming along. > From perl at minty.org Wed Oct 13 10:14:31 2010 From: perl at minty.org (Murray) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:14:31 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow In-Reply-To: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> References: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101013171431.GT19993@minty.org> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 06:00:38PM +0100, Robert Rothenberg wrote: > Can't make it. :( Me either sadly. > Glasgow.pm is not in the Scottish Tech Calendar. you got a link for that by any chance? After fractions of a second on Google I'm still lacking ... ahem ... their website isn't up to date either ;) http://glasgow.pm.org/ From fontani at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 11:00:21 2010 From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:00:21 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow In-Reply-To: <20101013171431.GT19993@minty.org> References: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> <20101013171431.GT19993@minty.org> Message-ID: Hello fellow Mongers, Sorry to hear some of you won't make it! > ahem ... their website isn't up to date either ;) > ? ?http://glasgow.pm.org/ I'll be updating it soon.. been on holidays too long :( Till soon, -marco- From miles at assyrian.org.uk Wed Oct 13 15:12:51 2010 From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 23:12:51 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> <20101013171431.GT19993@minty.org> Message-ID: <20101013221251.GV6099@assyrian.org.uk> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 07:00:21PM +0100, Marco Fontani wrote: > Hello fellow Mongers, > > Sorry to hear some of you won't make it! I'll be there. Marco: what time is the meeting likely to end? Miles -- The world seemed cruel and boring, and I'm not sure which was worse. -- Paul Graham From fontani at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:14:59 2010 From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 00:14:59 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm meeting tomorrow In-Reply-To: <20101013221251.GV6099@assyrian.org.uk> References: <4CB5E5B6.2070005@gmail.com> <20101013171431.GT19993@minty.org> <20101013221251.GV6099@assyrian.org.uk> Message-ID: > I'll be there. Marco: what time is the meeting likely to end? I would think around 1930 or 1945, depending on how many people brought a talk and depending on how late people are ;) I don't know how many will be up for it, but it's likely we'll go to a pub afterwards, this time one that does actually serve food ;) Updated website with map and mobile to call if late to get entry. Happy to hear you're coming ;) See you soon -marco- From fontani at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 16:28:55 2010 From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:28:55 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Glasgow.pm First technical meeting Message-ID: Hello fellow mongers, Apologies for the cross-post to Edinburgh.pm but I felt that some topics on this e-mail warranted having a larger audience. I'll stop x-posting on the first complaint. Six people participated on our first Glasgow.pm technical meeting last Thursday. For those of you who missed it, we had two full-length talks, and one lightning talk. Links to the talks: - Aaron Crane - "Perl on speed: multicore programming for mere mortals", available at http://aaroncrane.co.uk/talks/ - Marco Fontani - "Life after 5.8.8" - http://is.gd/g4Vg2 - Marco Fontani - "Leguminous" - http://is.gd/g4VlZ Apologies for my ~very short talk*~; I promise to make sure my next talks will actually fit in ~20 mins and will not cause unnecessary drowsiness, or sleepiness ;) Some of us had an additional "Drinkers.pm" meeting at a local pub which _does_ serve food, and quite a good one at that. The quest is now to find a pub which does serve food but is also not unnecessarily loud and not usually used on stag nights ;) We'll eventually manage, in small steps ;) At the Drinkers.pm meeting we discussed the technical conference Edinburgh.pm has tried to organise for next year, and I think I got drafted into it. Thus, if anyone knows or knows a friend who knows how to get a venue either in Edinburgh or Glasgow on the cheap (gratis or for a low price), with the following characteristics, please do contact me. - two or possibly three conference rooms, near each other, allowing for concurrent tracks - able to accommodate an estimated 150/200 people - no requirement for catering: the conference must be free - able to be sponsored by businesses in the area I'm sure I'll come out with more requirements; please do voice your opinion on the matter. For those of you who are not aware of this idea: it's about organising a multi-language conference, probably dubbed "dynamic scripting languages conference" or similar. There would be separate concurrent talk "tracks", probably along the lines of web development, system administration, language internals. Each track would be in a separate room, and multiple languages would be represented in each track. For example, on the "web development" track I'd expect talks about Catalyst, Mojolicious, Plack (for Perl); Sinatra, Rails, and whatever's hot these days for Ruby; AppEngine, Django, Grok, Pylons and similar for Python. The language represented should be the dynamic languages most in use in Scotland, namely Perl, Python, and Ruby. The conference should have a heavy Perl slant (after all it'd be good for Perl marketing), probably represented by having businesses which use Perl as sponsors, and possibly sponsorships (even small) from The Perl Foundation, the Enlightened Perl Organization and the likes. Edinburgh mongers please correct me on the above if I've misrepresented anything. I will see to collate all info about the conference on a page on glasgow.pm.org or on a shared google docs document to allow some collaboration and brainstorming. In short, let's see if the six degrees of separation work, and if we can manage to find a good venue for the event (there are four universities in Glasgow, I'm sure we'll find a couple rooms!) and I promise I'll do my best to make this happen. I'm sure you'll all volunteer for small specific tasks, as Aaron suggested. Expect more e-mails on this subject. Thanks everybody, speak to you soon. I will likely be at the next Edinburgh.pm meeting, to discuss the above. -marco- p.s. if anybody has any info on how to add the Glasgow.pm meeting dates to the "Scottish tech calendar", please contact me! -- * ~~ denotes sarcasm From cyocum at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 03:36:39 2010 From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:36:39 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Hi Guys, I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. I should be there. I was wondering who else was coming? Chris -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 262 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From perl at minty.org Wed Oct 27 03:42:00 2010 From: perl at minty.org (Murray) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:42:00 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101027104200.GX32677@minty.org> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:36:39AM +0100, Chris Yocum wrote: > I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. I should be > there. I was wondering who else was coming? Sorry, I probably won't be able to make it this month. From fontani at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 03:49:46 2010 From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:49:46 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. ?I should be > there. ?I was wondering who else was coming? I should be coming, but don't know yet at what time I'll be getting the train from Glasgow. Where is the meeting this time? See you tomorrow, -marco- From cyocum at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 04:21:57 2010 From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:21:57 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC80B55.1000707@gmail.com> The meeting with be at our usual place, the Cumberland Bar from 7:30-ish onwards Walking directions from Waverley Station: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Edinburgh+Waverley+Railway+Station,+Edinburgh+EH1+1BB,+United+Kingdom&daddr=cumberland+bar+edinburgh&hl=en&geocode=FQbEVQMdBFrP_ympovMIj8eHSDFqgxTthSBF6w%3BFdndVQMdEDfP_yF3AogtH5-VVCmZUjYLk8eHSDGH_DSrxn32eA&mra=pd&mrcr=0&dirflg=w&sll=55.95475,-3.192558&sspn=0.017899,0.028367&ie=UTF8&z=16 Looking forward to seeing you there! Chris On 27/10/10 11:49, Marco Fontani wrote: >> I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. I should be >> there. I was wondering who else was coming? > > I should be coming, but don't know yet at what time I'll be getting > the train from Glasgow. > > Where is the meeting this time? > > See you tomorrow, > -marco- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 262 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From miles at assyrian.org.uk Wed Oct 27 04:33:05 2010 From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:33:05 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101027113305.GM32494@assyrian.org.uk> I'll try to make it through. Miles -- Is it a punk song? Well, it's got three chords. -- Lenny Kaye From cyocum at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 04:39:03 2010 From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:39:03 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <20101027113305.GM32494@assyrian.org.uk> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> <20101027113305.GM32494@assyrian.org.uk> Message-ID: <4CC80F57.6040303@gmail.com> If you need a place to bed down, you are always welcome at mine. Chris On 27/10/10 12:33, Miles Gould wrote: > I'll try to make it through. > > Miles > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 262 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From fontani at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 04:46:36 2010 From: fontani at gmail.com (Marco Fontani) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:46:36 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Call for talks Message-ID: Hello fellow Perlers, Our next Glasgow.pm technical meeting will be in two weeks' time, on Thursday 2010-11-11. I have been promised a talk by one of our respectable members, but I'm putting out a call for talks anyway as ideally we'd have more than one talk on the day. If you have something you'd like to share with the group that even tangentially relates to Perl, you're more than welcome to reply and book your spot for the next meeting. Ideally we'd have one or two full-length talks (20 mins or so each), and a number of lightning talks. I have something almost ready on the topic of object-oriented mice. It will likely be just a lightning talk. As usual, the group will then retreat to the pub after the technical meeting, for a social event. A task for the day will be to find a pub that has beer, ales, food, and.. new entry for this time: that doesn't have stag nights running on the night. Raise hands for the proposal of "All bar one" (http://www.allbarone.co.uk/allbaroneglasgow/). It has beers, pale/cask ales, and food. Looking forward to hearing from you soon, -marco- From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk Thu Oct 28 05:43:38 2010 From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:43:38 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris Yocum wrote: > I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. ?I should be > there. ?I was wondering who else was coming? I don't think I'll be able to make it, I'm afraid. -- Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/ From eb at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk Thu Oct 28 06:24:16 2010 From: eb at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk (Edwin Brady) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:24:16 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> References: <4CC800B7.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6C3D938D-A72B-47CA-B61E-FE7D08E23279@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> On 27 Oct 2010, at 11:36, Chris Yocum wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I believe tomorrow is the date of our monthly meeting. I should be > there. I was wondering who else was coming? I wasn't going to, but for complicated (and unintersting) public transport related reasons, I will be. See you later :). Edwin. -- Edwin Brady - http://www.cs.st-and.ac.uk/~eb/ The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No SC013532 From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 07:36:33 2010 From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:36:33 +0100 Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] (OT) job pointers for Edinburgh/Glasgow? Fwd: Job stuff Message-ID: Hello all, I guess this off-topic, but the lovely Kake from London.pm asked on behalf of a friend, so hope it's OK to forward to list! Cheers, osfameron ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kake L Pugh Date: 28 October 2010 15:25 Subject: Job stuff To: Hakim Cassimally Here you go: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a friend who's looking for a job in Glasgow or Edinburgh. He's someone I've worked with as a programmer on the Discworld MUD, and in my opinion he's both competent and personable (I've met him IRL as well as online). He's interested in working either as a developer (experience of Windows development and PHP) or as a Linux sysadmin. He has three years' experience of professional programming in a scientific environment, and has also worked on programming projects of his own. He's available to start immediately. Does anyone know of anything that might be suitable? If you'd like to see his CV, either drop me a line or email him at andrew.white at darknet.demon.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------