From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Fri Jul  1 02:49:23 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:49:23 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] To quote or not to quote.
In-Reply-To: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
References: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>

Neil Williams wrote:
> I'm using Perl to parse some XML and generate C source code, including the 
> Makefile.am, configure.in, autogen.sh, *.c, *.h and ChangeLog.

That's disgusting!

> Naturally, I want to keep the code in the templates in sync with the
> code in the real project. However, I do NOT want to have to include
> placeholders in the REAL project. The places where the template uses
> modified strings are not predictable in a manner that would suit a
> regexp.

I'm losing it, is there a simple example?

> Whilst some files are 100% generated, there are only small changes
> required to certain files - the name of the final program, copyright
> notices, names of the objects being used in the template - so I've
> got some files that are 10k of unchanged text with only maybe a
> dozen lines changing.

And you presently do this by hand?

> Or should I save the unchanging code to snippet files that are
> opened by the script? I was hoping to avoid that in the hope that I
> could package a single script file instead of lots. If I'm going to
> use external snippet files, I'd need a way to use the same files in
> PHP too. (The PHP scripts receive input from HTML forms, cache the
> results in a MySQL table and then generate the final code. The perl
> parses the XML and generates the code from that, caching in RAM.)

Yes, an example please.

> 1. How does a perl script accept command-line arguments? (your-name, email, 
> prefix, output-dir etc.)

@ARGV? GetOpt?

> 2. once this is done, what's the easiest way to execute the
> ./autogen.sh with  parameters to start the build from within the
> perl script that generated the code? Can the one command include the
> make? (no need for make install as these are example / test
> programs). 

Exec is proably what you need, if it's the last thing you
do. Otherwise, I'd be interested in what you want to do with return
code, STDOUT and STDERR.

Steve

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 02:58:37 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:58:37 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] To quote or not to quote.
In-Reply-To: <20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
	<20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/1/05, Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk> wrote:
> Neil Williams wrote:
> > I'm using Perl to parse some XML and generate C source code, including the
> > Makefile.am, configure.in, autogen.sh, *.c, *.h and ChangeLog.
> 
> That's disgusting!
> 
> > Naturally, I want to keep the code in the templates in sync with the
> > code in the real project. However, I do NOT want to have to include
> > placeholders in the REAL project. The places where the template uses
> > modified strings are not predictable in a manner that would suit a
> > regexp.

I'm not sure if I get what you are doing fully..

You seem to be mucking about with big intepolated strings when you
should be using a real templating system.

Have you considered using Template Toolkit rather than string/text manipulation?

I know that doesn't answer your immediate problem, but if you continue
along your current lines rather than switching to something like
Template Toolkit things will only get harder and more unmanagable.

Cheers,

A.

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Fri Jul  1 03:03:51 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:03:51 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] To quote or not to quote.
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
	<20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050701100351.GA3483@devon-it.co.uk>

Aaron Trevena wrote:

> I'm not sure if I get what you are doing fully..
> 
> You seem to be mucking about with big intepolated strings when you
> should be using a real templating system.
> 
> Have you considered using Template Toolkit rather than string/text
> manipulation? 

Of Text::Template or HTML::Template without html.

Steve

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 06:41:42 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:41:42 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] To quote or not to quote.
In-Reply-To: <20050701132648.GA8324@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
	<20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050701100351.GA3483@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507010537d99607e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050701132648.GA8324@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d05070106419efc4ca@mail.gmail.com>

> > No point using something crippled like HTML::Template for any serious
> > work. I find HTML::Template fails to work well for even fairly trivial
> > stuff like email bodies once you use any objects or complex data.
> 
> I use it for most things and find the if you make your data structure
> well, then it works like a dream.

Only if well equals a hash of arrays of hashes ;)

Actually I used H::T the other day for email but only for trivial mail
merging, anything else I use TT for as I can use objects and don't
have to munge data into the hugely limiting and frankly crippling
H-o-A-o-H arrangement.

When I used H::T at a previous employer for a fairly complex web
application it was a giant pain in the ass and we even experienced
bugs which we had to munge our data even more to get around.

Using TT from the start saves a lot of pain ;)

A.

From linux at codehelp.co.uk  Fri Jul  1 12:02:33 2005
From: linux at codehelp.co.uk (Neil Williams)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:02:33 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] To quote or not to quote.
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200506302122.38982.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
	<20050701094923.GA3051@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d05070102583bfd7f16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200507012002.36880.linux@codehelp.co.uk>

On Friday 01 July 2005 10:58 am, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> On 7/1/05, Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk> wrote:
> > Neil Williams wrote:
> > > I'm using Perl to parse some XML and generate C source code, including
> > > the Makefile.am, configure.in, autogen.sh, *.c, *.h and ChangeLog.
> >
> > That's disgusting!

Why? Perl is ideally suited to converting between text formats, it's just a 
simple script - all the important work is and can only be done in C. There is 
no way Perl can deal with this data itself, it would require implementing 
most of GnuCash and a lot of Gnome in Perl - now that would be disgusting.

I parse a data object that is expressed in XML. The structure of that 
object is then recreated in C so that anyone receiving such XML can 
create an application to handle the data contained in the XML.

Perl cannot (and must not) deal with the data, perl is only being used 
to create a suitable structure in C, it ignores the actual data and only 
processes the structure.

Take a look at the homepages from the first message.

It's about generating example and test programs on-the-fly from real data 
objects. I could do it in bash using sed but Perl is more portable.

> > > Naturally, I want to keep the code in the templates in sync with the
> > > code in the real project. However, I do NOT want to have to include
> > > placeholders in the REAL project. The places where the template uses
> > > modified strings are not predictable in a manner that would suit a
> > > regexp.
>
> I'm not sure if I get what you are doing fully..

Objects are generic and are plugged into a wider framework once 
compiled. Different objects are needed for different applications and 
data structures. Generating the C code for such objects is tedious and 
repetitive because it's a long stream of get() and set() routines. It's crying 
out for automation. I've already implemented one method using HTML and PHP, 
the new Perl method is to be fully automatic, taking the description of the 
intended object from XML files written out using the C library or 
hand-edited.

The real project is Pilot-QOF and the generated code from that project is 
needed to provide a front-end for QOF-generator. The Perl is used to generate 
the objects and adapt the existing application to use the names used in the 
XML.

The code in the real project is the basis of each generated application. 
The generated application never changes, just the objects and names.

In time, the one application will be adapted to load objects from C libraries 
at runtime.

Each object has it's own .c and .h file - 90% of which is generated 
directly from the XML. When a <string> tag is parsed, a string type 
get() and set() routine are created using the name set in the XML for the name 
of the functions and the parameter itself, the object parameters have a 
string (char*) access method and the struct behind the object itself gets a 
const char* to hold the data. Other data types are boolean, rounded_numeric, 
hexadecimal unique identifiers, single char, integers, longs, lists and 
frames of keys with values. The object files themselves are fine, the only 
long strings used are the GPL header and copyright notice. These don't need 
any templates - nor do they need updating regularly.

The area of most concern for me is the application itself. This is v.closely 
based on pilot-QOF and needs to be as easy to update from that project as 
possible. No markers, no hand-editing, no template placeholders. Yet it is 
90% unchanged between runs, just changes to the names of the objects and the 
header files to include with consequent changes to Makefiles and configure 
scripts.

> You seem to be mucking about with big intepolated strings when you
> should be using a real templating system.

No, I cannot. The strings CANNOT and MUST NOT ever contain any markers, 
Perl, customised comments or placeholders. They are and remain plain C.

That's why I don't want to use quote marks because it requires hand 
editing of the files when copying modified code into the generation project.

The code being copied into the generation project is REAL C code from a 
real project and as that improves, I want to be able to simply copy 
files or snippets into place to update the generated projects with the 
same C changes. The Perl itself won't change. Ideally I'd like to be able to 
do this by simply applying the same patch as I use on the original C files.

This also allows existing generated applications to be patched to the latest 
application code, a quick rebuild and it's done.

> Have you considered using Template Toolkit rather than string/text
> manipulation?

Won't work as the "templates" cannot be marked up. There's no way of Perl 
handling the C directly in any intelligent manner. e.g. how do you tell Perl 
to make valid changes to a Makefile.am or configure.ac? These files *cannot* 
be marked up as templates because of the varying syntax problems and because 
they come from a real project where these markers are unwanted.

> I know that doesn't answer your immediate problem, but if you continue
> along your current lines rather than switching to something like
> Template Toolkit things will only get harder and more unmanagable.

It doesn't need to grow - every object can be handled by the same script 
because of the rules built within the framework. If it works for one it 
will work for all because of how this particular XML output is created.

It's already working - I just want to make it easier to update.

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/

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From linux at codehelp.co.uk  Fri Jul  1 15:36:45 2005
From: linux at codehelp.co.uk (Neil Williams)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:36:45 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] some example code:
Message-ID: <200507012336.49096.linux@codehelp.co.uk>

This illustrates the problem of quoting and escaping. I'll be changing this to 
use $a <<MARKER;
...
MARKER
sometime over the weekend which will remove all the \\ and \$ nonsense.

Several simple substitutions will then remain.

sub makefile {
$Makefile = "lib_LTLIBRARIES = lib" . $object . "qof.la

AM_CFLAGS = \\
  -I.. -I../.. \\
  -I../popt \\
  \${QOF_CFLAGS} \\
  \${GLIB_CFLAGS}

lib" . $object . "qof_la_LIBADD= \\
	\$(GLIB_LIBS)	\\
	\$(QOF_LIBS)

lib" . $object . "qof_la_SOURCES =  \\
        " . $object . ".c

bin_PROGRAMS=\\
        qof-" . $object . "

qof_" . $object . "_SOURCES=\\
        qof-main.c

qof_" . $object . "_LDADD =               \\
        lib" . $object . "qof.la \\
	\${QOF_LIBS} \\
        \$(GLIB_LIBS) \\
        \$(POPT_LIBS) \\
        -lltdl

";
return $Makefile;
}

1;

Two other files require this kind of addition:
foreach $object (@objects) {
	$qofmainH .= "#include \"" . $object . ".h\"\n";
}

or:

foreach $object (@objects) {
	$qofmainC .= "\t" . ucfirst($object) . "_Register();\n";
}

From this kind of XML:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<qof-qsf xmlns="http://qof.sourceforge.net/">
  <book count="1">
    <book-guid>7b3cc0cae1068b7170e71c2fde0338ea</book-guid>
    <object type="gncInvoice" count="1">
      <string type="id">000066</string>
      <string type="billing_id">345</string>
      <string type="notes"/>
      <guid type="guid">fc93ba81b854e6f3d42504c1550ee6d3</guid>
      <guid type="terms">be0f11d164df506e5ce50e147548159b</guid>
      <guid type="account">7d7ada08cf42fd87473b8fe506a468b6</guid>
      <guid type="posted_txn">84668e91fadf48b0207d073efc456111</guid>
      <boolean type="active">true</boolean>
      <date type="date_posted">2004-03-20T00:00:00Z</date>
      <date type="date_opened">2004-03-22T00:00:00Z</date>
    </object>
  </book>
</qof-qsf>

I know the Perl itself can be cleaned up. The important element is that I want 
to be able to update the final Makefile.am more easily. In this case, it 
should be solved with the $a = <<EOF; syntax as I can then copy and paste the 
required Makefile rules where needed.

The parameters are generated using:
sub string_function {
	my $e;
	foreach $s (@_) {
		$s =~ s/[ |-]/_/g;
		$e .= "static char*\n" . "get" . ucfirst($s) . "(";
		$e .= $object . "* obj)\n";
		$e .= "{\n\tg_return_val_if_fail (obj != NULL, NULL);\n";
		$e .= "\treturn obj->$s;\n}\n\n";
		$e .= "static void\n" . "set" . ucfirst($s) . "(" . $object;
		$e .= "* obj, const char* string)\n";
		$e .= "{\n\tg_return_if_fail (obj != NULL);\n";
		$e .= "\tobj->$s = g_strdup(string);\n}\n\n";
	}
	return $e;
}

The parser uses:
	if($_[1] eq 'string')   { push (@{$strings[$i]}, @_[3]); }

The output routine uses:

foreach $object (@objects)
{
	print (QOF string_function(@{$strings[$ii]}));
}

to produce:

static char*
getId(gncInvoice* obj)
{
	g_return_val_if_fail (obj != NULL, NULL);
	return obj->id;
}

static void
setId(gncInvoice* obj, const char* string)
{
	g_return_if_fail (obj != NULL);
	obj->id = g_strdup(string);
}

The objects are provided with their create functions using:

sub create_object {
	$object = @_[0];
	my $m = $object . "_create";
	my $u = "QOF_" . uc($object) . "_NAME";
	my $e = "
#include <stdlib.h>
#include \"$object.h\"

$object*
$m (QofBook *book)\n{
	$object  *obj;
	QofCollection *coll;
	GList *all;

	obj = g_new0 ($object, 1);
	qof_instance_init (&obj->inst, $u, book);
	coll = qof_book_get_collection (book, $u);
	all = qof_collection_get_data (coll);\n\tall = g_list_prepend (all, obj);
	qof_collection_set_data (coll, all);\n\treturn obj;\n}\n
";
return $e;
}

HTH

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/

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From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Mon Jul  4 04:23:31 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:23:31 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] some example code:
In-Reply-To: <200507012336.49096.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
References: <200507012336.49096.linux@codehelp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20050704112331.GA27591@devon-it.co.uk>

Neil Williams wrote:

> HTH

I say use a template system. Small learning curve, masses of benefits.

Steve

From Clive.darke at qa.com  Sun Jul 10 00:00:28 2005
From: Clive.darke at qa.com (Darke, Clive)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:00:28 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] 5.10
Message-ID: <6717F6757D09C24C9BFAC4F7B769682F24D202@MAIL.corp.qa.com>

Can anyone point me to a URL where I can find dates or progress towards this
release?  I've tried the usual ones, and have a fairly good idea what it
will contain, I just need to know when.
 
Cheers,
Clive


________________________________________________________________________
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From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Mon Jul 11 04:40:19 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:40:19 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] 5.10
In-Reply-To: <6717F6757D09C24C9BFAC4F7B769682F24D202@MAIL.corp.qa.com>
References: <6717F6757D09C24C9BFAC4F7B769682F24D202@MAIL.corp.qa.com>
Message-ID: <20050711114019.GA17148@devon-it.co.uk>

Darke, Clive wrote:
> Can anyone point me to a URL where I can find dates or progress towards this
> release?  I've tried the usual ones, and have a fairly good idea what it
> will contain, I just need to know when.

I've mailed the Press Office at Fotango to see if they will relase
progress information. I'll let you know if I get anything back.

Steve

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Mon Jul 11 05:37:23 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:37:23 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] [nclark@fotango.com: Re: progress]
Message-ID: <20050711123723.GC18371@devon-it.co.uk>

----- Forwarded message from Nicholas Clark <nclark at fotango.com> -----

Cc: "James A. Duncan" <jduncan at fotango.com>
From: Nicholas Clark <nclark at fotango.com>
Subject: Re: progress
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:28:13 +0100
To: Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622)
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham 
	version=3.0.3


On 11 Jul 2005, at 12:42, James A. Duncan wrote:
>Begin forwarded message:
>>I run one of the Perl Mongers User groups and have been asked if I can
>>find out a little more about the progress of Perl 5.10/Ponie. I have
>>seen the project plan on you site and was wondering if you had a
>>similar, progress page which showed a few dates.

Ponie isn't going to be "Perl 5.10". It's more likely to be an  
independent release, and there may well be a 5.12 series of Perl  
releases based on the existing "classic" Perl 5 codebase after Ponie is  
first released.

As to Perl 5.10, the best roadmap is probably Rafael's slides, which  
are online at

http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~rgarciasuarez/slides/perl510/ 
perl510.html

Rafael was intending to mark progress in terms of features completed,  
rather than specific dates.

The most visible sign of progress is that there was a ponie develpoment  
snapshot released two weeks ago:

  http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.ponie.dev/436

the details of what's new are in the readme:

  http://svn.perl.org/ponie/trunk/README

I have submitted the story to use.perl, but it's awaiting editor  
approval. (as is the parrot release announcement from 2 weeks ago, and  
the parrot announcement from 6 weeks ago. You may draw your own  
conclusions about the efficiency of the use.perl story submission  
process - see http://use.perl.org/submit.pl?op=list for the pending  
stories)


As to ponie dates, do you mean dates on when the various tasks were  
completed? If so, we don't, but the roadmap is being updated in  
subversion as and when the subtasks are completed, or at least  
sufficiently partly complete to allow progress to the next:

  http://svn.perl.org/ponie/trunk/Roadmap

The trouble with Ponie in general is that because it's mostly a big,  
progressive refactoring exercise it keeps throwing up unexpected  
problems that need to be investigated and solved prior to completing a  
task. Quite a few of the problems so far have been in the perl 5 core  
code, and have been solved there first, before being merged over as a  
block. It's also tricky to declare any task as "finished", because most  
of them aren't, in the sense of being completed. Most need revisiting  
once other parts progress far enough, so I don't consider them  
finished, so I don't make grand sweeping pronouncements to that effect.  
Also I feel that given all the twists and turns, attempting to keep the  
roadmap/tasklist updated on a daily basis would eat up more time than  
the actual development work.

I attempt to keep the commit messages both short and informative -  
possible the best way of tracking progress is by watching the commit  
list:

  http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.ponie.changes


Nicholas Clark



----- End forwarded message -----

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Wed Jul 20 09:42:56 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:42:56 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] TT undefined variables
Message-ID: <20050720164256.GA24228@devon-it.co.uk>

I've tried a million ways, but I can't get Template Toolkit to return
me an error if it comes across a variable in the template which does
not exist in the variables hash.

Any ideas.

Steve

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Wed Jul 20 13:36:24 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:36:24 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] [Josette@Oreilly.co.uk: EURO OSCON Registration --Now Open]
Message-ID: <20050720203624.GB27621@devon-it.co.uk>

----- Forwarded message from Josette Garcia <Josette at Oreilly.co.uk> -----

Subject: EURO OSCON Registration --Now Open
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:29:38 +0100
From: Josette Garcia <Josette at Oreilly.co.uk>
To: Josette Garcia <Josette at Oreilly.co.uk>
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham 
	version=3.0.3

Please let your members know. The good news - discount for user group members is 15%. 
Kindest regards
josette

-----------

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- PHP: Rasmus Lerdorf, Sebastian Bergmann, Daniel Guermeur
- Python: Alex Martelli, Joel Burton, Martijn Faassen
- Perl: Larry Wall, Damian Conway, Abigail, Leon Brocard, Autrijus Tang
- Databases: David Axmark, Theo Schlossnagle, Jutta Horstmann
- Security: Ben Laurie, Marty Pauley, John Viega
- Emerging Topics (Ruby on Rails, AJAX, Subversion): Kathy Sierra, Paul Everitt, Martin King-Turner

We invite you to gather with leaders, programmers, innovators, and users of every open source persuasion at the premiere of EuroOSCON. EuroOSCON is a place where you can hone your skills, learn about the newest features and versions, hear about open source trends and innovations from creators and experts, make new professional and personal connections--and best of all, have fun doing it.  
***Important Deadlines***

- 29 August: Early registration pricing ends--as does your chance to save up to 400 euros. (And, if you're eligible for a discount--user group, alumni, government, non-profit, etc.--it can be used during the early registration period to save you even more.) Check the registration page for details: 
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- 16 September: Hotel group rate discount ends. For hotel and travel information, go to: 
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/41/hotel.html

For information on exhibiting or becoming a sponsor at EuroOSCON, contact Andrew Calvo at (country code 01) (707) 827-7176, or andrewc at oreilly.com for more info.

To become a media sponsor at O'Reilly conferences, contact Margi Levin at
(country code 01) (707) 827-7184, or margi at oreilly.comMargi Levin 
Marketing Manager, Conferences
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1005 Gravenstein Highway North   Sebastopol, CA  95472
margi at oreilly.com  (707) 827-7184  http://conferences.oreilly.com






----- End forwarded message -----

From Robin.Barker at npl.co.uk  Thu Jul 21 02:25:59 2005
From: Robin.Barker at npl.co.uk (Robin Barker)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:25:59 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] TT undefined variables
Message-ID: <533D273D4014D411AB1D00062938C4D90849C74B@hotel.npl.co.uk>

Steve 

You may find DEBUG_UNDEF helpful, e.g.

    use Template::Constants qw(:debug);
    my $it = Template->new({DEBUG => DEBUG_UNDEF});
or
    my $it = Template->new({DEBUG => 'debug'});

Robin

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Marvell
To: devoncornwall-pm at pm.org
Sent: 20/07/05 17:42
Subject: [DCPM] TT undefined variables

I've tried a million ways, but I can't get Template Toolkit to return
me an error if it comes across a variable in the template which does
not exist in the variables hash.

Any ideas.

Steve
_______________________________________________
Devoncornwall-pm mailing list
Devoncornwall-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/devoncornwall-pm

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From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Thu Jul 21 03:39:01 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:39:01 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] doh
Message-ID: <20050721103901.GA8338@devon-it.co.uk>

Just don't ask.

Steve

From simon at technocool.net  Sun Jul 24 10:50:32 2005
From: simon at technocool.net (Simon Waters)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:50:32 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] doh
In-Reply-To: <20050721103901.GA8338@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <20050721103901.GA8338@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <42E3D4E8.3000602@technocool.net>

Steve Marvell wrote:
>
> Just don't ask.

It really can't be any worse than me pondering what was wrong with the
first line of a weekly cron job script "#!/bin/..." for several weeks to
realise that by "line 1" cron meant I'd typed the path to the script wrong.

Don't know my own username....



From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Wed Jul 27 05:36:00 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:36:00 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] [customerservice@osoft.com: Service Announcement - Perl
	Documentation approved for ThoutReader format on Perl.com]
Message-ID: <20050727123600.GA21752@devon-it.co.uk>

I've installed it and it's slow. I think I get on better with perldoc
and /usr/share/doc

Steve

----- Forwarded message from customerservice at osoft.com -----

To: steve at fysh.org
Subject: Service Announcement  -  Perl Documentation approved for ThoutReader format on Perl.com
From: customerservice at osoft.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:48:42 -0700
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,NO_REAL_NAME 
	autolearn=no version=3.0.3

Dear Perl Monger,

We wanted to let you know that the official Perl documentation is now
available from perl.com (http://www.perl.com/pub/q/documentation) in the
ThoutReader format.

The ThoutReader is an open source documentation platform that allows you to
organize, search, bookmark, append (public & private notes), and print your
favorite library of reference documentation and code as well as reference
books - from one program, in one format, at the same time - even off-line
and on the go.

The Perl package in the ThoutReader format includes ALL of the core
documentation modules found at http://www.perl.com/pub/q/documentation in
ONE searchable package. It also supports the use of public notes.

You can check this format out from either www.perl.com or www.osoft.com. It
is absolutely free. Documentation and other resources in the ThoutReader
format are also available for Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP, BSD, Python, Samba,
and many others.

Thank you for supporting our open source project. Please pass this message
on to other members of your Monger group. 

OSoft Development Team
www.osoft.com

Note: This is a one time service announcement concerning the availability of
Perl documentation in the ThoutReader format. It will not be repeated. Any
further announcements will be made through community websites and industry
meetings. Thank you for supporting our open source project.



----- End forwarded message -----

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Fri Jul 29 02:51:33 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:51:33 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
Message-ID: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>

It so needs a face lift. It's got none of the reviews on it and the
mailing list instructions are wrong.

Steve

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Fri Jul 29 03:20:39 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:20:39 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] Pro Perl review
Message-ID: <20050729102039.GA21492@devon-it.co.uk>

Rock!

Steve
-------------- next part --------------
Perl Now
Peter Wainwright
Apress, 2005
1-59059-438-X

This is a thick book, and the reason for this, is that it's jam packed
full of information. This is information is complete, current,
relevant and useful. This really is the best general Perl book I've
come across.

This book can be used by Perl programmers of many levels. It's not too
useful for the beginner or novice, but if you're the sort of
programmer which has written a good few scripts, maybe some quite long
ones, can update others code easily and occasionally has an expert look
over your shoulder and you understand his advice, then this is the
book for you. Not only intermediate programmers will benefit, even
after my ten years (on and off) Perl experience, there was still
things for me to learn. I's perfectly pitched for intermediate to
advanced, not novice or expert.

It's very difficult for a Perl book to start without the ubiquitous
'Download and Install' section, and here we have one. I must admit, I
did skip this chapter, but it was pretty much the only one.

You might think the 'Basic Concepts' section is just another syntax
explanation, but it's not. It is, in fact, a very good example of the
quality of the book. Here you find that amongst things you thought you
knew, there is a wealth of information and it's when you find these
gems, because you didn't skip the sections, that you realise there is
a lot to learn still and that this book is going to to take ages to
read, but you'll want to read it, oh yes.

You'll want to read it because it's written very well. It has words as
well as examples. The patter is medium paced and not at all
patronising. There are tips, caveats and 'this is useful'. The
examples are small when they need to be small and verbose when then
need to be big, but they are not full of padding. There is no showing
off things he's written and no flashy or inappropriate technique, just
illustrative, well chosen examples.

There are 10 chapters on the Perl language, 6 chapters on practical
Perl usage, such as IO, errors, debugging and profiling followed by 6
big chapters on Text Processing, OOP, Extending & Embedding, Signals
Processes & Threads, Networking and Localisation, all of which are
fantastic. 

This is very definitely a Perl language book, rather than an
application book. You're not going to know how to talk to databases,
build web applications or shake, rattle and roll a whole bunch of DNA
data. It's not a techniques book. It doesn't tell you to use strict at
every turn, it doesn't tell not to use do...while loops, it doesn't
need to.

After reading this book, you will be in possession of the tools and
techniques to use the Perl language very very effectively and have a
great quality reference manual to hand. It's the perfect stepping
stone into advanced programming and some of the more complex
applications books.

-- 

Steve Marvell is the Proprietor of an IT Solutions Provider based in
the South West of England and runs the Devon and Cornwall Perl
Mongers. 

This review may be used, in full, including this message, by anyone,
but may not be edited without the author's permission. 

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 07:25:59 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:25:59 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/29/05, Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk> wrote:
> It so needs a face lift. It's got none of the reviews on it and the
> mailing list instructions are wrong.

We could use Maypole. I'll even give you a bit of a hand if you like.

Cheers,

A.

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Sat Jul 30 02:28:36 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:36 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>

Aaron Trevena wrote:

> We could use Maypole. I'll even give you a bit of a hand if you like.

Sounds fab. What I need is the old ftp details.

Steve

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Sat Jul 30 03:45:45 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:45:45 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/05, Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk> wrote:
> Aaron Trevena wrote:
> 
> > We could use Maypole. I'll even give you a bit of a hand if you like.
> 
> Sounds fab. What I need is the old ftp details.

Cool. Don't look at me - I only got around to subscribing fairly recently.

A.

From matthewbrowning at gmail.com  Sat Jul 30 09:44:34 2005
From: matthewbrowning at gmail.com (Matthew Browning)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:44:34 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>

> > Sounds fab. What I need is the old ftp details.
> 
> Cool. Don't look at me - I only got around to subscribing fairly recently.
> 


This is something to do with me.  Here is a history of the DCPM web site:

- I did a site in 2000 or 2001 with book reviews on it and other
stuff.  It was not very interesting; nobody ever looked at it.
- After about a year, the pm.org administrators evidently did some
sort of reshuffle and access to the MySQL database (containing the
fairly minimal content) was removed.
- Probably about a year after that, Christmas 2003 according to my
records, I noticed this and quickly produced the page that is up there
right now, using my 733T markup skillz.  I omitted to include Steve's
three book reviews, which he had supplied as HTML files.
- Later still, they moved the hosting to another machine that does not
allow FTP access.  There's an FAQ about it here:
http://groups.pm.org/faq.html.
- Lacked time and motivation to further pursue the matter.

I'm happy to help in any way in the resurrection of this resource, if
required.  Frankly, I'm pushed to think of anything to put there that
the handful of list subscribers don't already know about, though.

I gather the problem is that Steve gets sent a certain amount of
goodies from ORA et al subject to the condition that we put up a bunch
of reviews on the site and, of course, there's nowt there.  O well,
easily fixed I reckon.

From steve at devon-it.co.uk  Sun Jul 31 02:43:38 2005
From: steve at devon-it.co.uk (Steve Marvell)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:43:38 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>

Matthew Browning wrote:

> - I did a site in 2000 or 2001 with book reviews on it and other
> stuff.  It was not very interesting; nobody ever looked at it.

I thought it was was great and you did a great job.

[ ... ]

> - Lacked time and motivation to further pursue the matter.

I hear that. I don't blame you.

> I gather the problem is that Steve gets sent a certain amount of
> goodies from ORA et al subject to the condition that we put up a bunch
> of reviews on the site and, of course, there's nowt there.  O well,
> easily fixed I reckon.

One of the problems is that we can't do book reviews unless we publish
the reviews.

Steve

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 05:34:00 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:34:00 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/05, Steve Marvell <steve at devon-it.co.uk> wrote:
> Matthew Browning wrote:
> 
> > - I did a site in 2000 or 2001 with book reviews on it and other
> > stuff.  It was not very interesting; nobody ever looked at it.
> 
> I thought it was was great and you did a great job.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> > - Lacked time and motivation to further pursue the matter.
> 
> I hear that. I don't blame you.
> 
> > I gather the problem is that Steve gets sent a certain amount of
> > goodies from ORA et al subject to the condition that we put up a bunch
> > of reviews on the site and, of course, there's nowt there.  O well,
> > easily fixed I reckon.
> 
> One of the problems is that we can't do book reviews unless we publish
> the reviews.

There is also information we can show such as - local jobs (there was
a unix/perl job at the Met Office recently), local success stories and
possibly stuff like tips, tricks, scripts, etc - not full on cpan or
perlmonks but simple submissions. Also list archives and useful links
are pretty much de rigeur for any user group along with upcoming
events (both local and national/european)

cheers,

A.

From matthewbrowning at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 06:55:17 2005
From: matthewbrowning at gmail.com (Matthew Browning)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:55:17 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2bfa7e305073106556e92bd15@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/05, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com> wrote:
> > One of the problems is that we can't do book reviews unless we publish
> > the reviews.
> 
> There is also information we can show such as...
>

Well look, I'm spending an outrageous amount of time on trains over
the next two months so if there is an interest I can whack something
quite brain-dead together, I'm sure.

If, however, there is someone on the list itching to flex a bit of web
dev talent then I'll pass on any info I have and wish 'em the best of
luck with it.  From experience, I would advise against supposing any
facility beyond serving static content and, presumably, CGI.

Yip yip,

MB

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 07:46:25 2005
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:46:25 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <2bfa7e305073106556e92bd15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>
	<2bfa7e305073106556e92bd15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d05073107461f0ecd02@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/05, Matthew Browning <matthewbrowning at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/31/05, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > One of the problems is that we can't do book reviews unless we publish
> > > the reviews.
> >
> > There is also information we can show such as...
> >
> 
> Well look, I'm spending an outrageous amount of time on trains over
> the next two months so if there is an interest I can whack something
> quite brain-dead together, I'm sure.
> 
> If, however, there is someone on the list itching to flex a bit of web
> dev talent then I'll pass on any info I have and wish 'em the best of
> luck with it.  From experience, I would advise against supposing any
> facility beyond serving static content and, presumably, CGI.

We don't have to host on the pm.org servers - for instance we could
probably host on london.pm's penderal server which hosts the london.pm
site and stuff. Failing that we could look at sharing the D&C LUG box.

Or find a nice sponser.

A.

From linux at codehelp.co.uk  Sun Jul 31 08:53:18 2005
From: linux at codehelp.co.uk (Neil Williams)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:53:18 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d05073107461f0ecd02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>	<20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>	<2bfa7e305073106556e92bd15@mail.gmail.com>
	<edcafa7d05073107461f0ecd02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42ECF3EE.5000608@codehelp.co.uk>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Aaron Trevena wrote:
| On 7/31/05, Matthew Browning <matthewbrowning at gmail.com> wrote:
|>Well look, I'm spending an outrageous amount of time on trains over
|>the next two months so if there is an interest I can whack something
|>quite brain-dead together, I'm sure.
|>
|>If, however, there is someone on the list itching to flex a bit of web
|>dev talent then I'll pass on any info I have and wish 'em the best of
|>luck with it.  From experience, I would advise against supposing any
|>facility beyond serving static content and, presumably, CGI.
|
| We don't have to host on the pm.org servers - for instance we could
| probably host on london.pm's penderal server which hosts the london.pm
| site and stuff. Failing that we could look at sharing the D&C LUG box.

That's certainly possible. It's a Debian box running user mode linux. I
can't promise to look after it myself (as I do DCGLUG) but if, Matthew,
you are interested in a fully customisable Debian environment with root
access, apt-get and a total installation of some 5Gb, Simon and I can
probably help. Your UML would be entirely under your own control.


- --

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.codehelp.co.uk/
http://www.dclug.org.uk/
http://www.isbn.org.uk/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/isbnsearch/

http://www.biglumber.com/x/web?qs=0x8801094A28BCB3E3
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From simon at technocool.net  Sun Jul 31 09:11:35 2005
From: simon at technocool.net (Simon Waters)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:11:35 +0100
Subject: [DCPM] our website
In-Reply-To: <42ECF3EE.5000608@codehelp.co.uk>
References: <20050729095133.GA20898@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d050729072576cffc78@mail.gmail.com>	<20050730092835.GC10469@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d0507300345794fdc8e@mail.gmail.com>	<2bfa7e305073009446974ae74@mail.gmail.com>	<20050731094338.GA31577@devon-it.co.uk>	<edcafa7d050731053420773d66@mail.gmail.com>	<2bfa7e305073106556e92bd15@mail.gmail.com>	<edcafa7d05073107461f0ecd02@mail.gmail.com>
	<42ECF3EE.5000608@codehelp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <42ECF837.2000200@technocool.net>

Neil Williams wrote:
> 
> That's certainly possible. It's a Debian box running user mode linux. I
> can't promise to look after it myself (as I do DCGLUG) but if, Matthew,
> you are interested in a fully customisable Debian environment with root
> access, apt-get and a total installation of some 5Gb, Simon and I can
> probably help. Your UML would be entirely under your own control.

Each UML needs an IP address - which might be an issue.

But if you just want an account, a virtual server, and maybe mod_perl --
no trouble.

It'll be vanilla Debian stable, Apache2, if it is in my UML, but that
isn't too restrictive.

Although I noticed a lot of the Perl hosting stuff says rebuild all
sorts of stuff from source with odd options - really not my way of
admining boxes (if it is avoidable).