From jalex at pobox.com Thu Dec 1 21:20:32 2005 From: jalex at pobox.com (J Alexander) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 00:20:32 -0500 Subject: [Columbus-pm] has anyone perused 'Higher Order Perl', on monks and gripes In-Reply-To: <889858ad0511300910ied26100l4c381a94c9d4333c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511292016.20343.jalex@pobox.com> <889858ad0511300910ied26100l4c381a94c9d4333c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512020020.32639.jalex@pobox.com> First, my disclaimers - Perl is open source, module developers are likely not paid, the community is a little more democratic than .Net or Java, and I wouldn't be part of perl mongers if I didn't like it. I do use perl some still for fun, but for work I use Java and most scripting can be done in shell easily enough. Since java jdk 1.5 came out with regex support that rivals Perl's, I have dumped a lot of perl parsing code for a java version. =) Perl, as a language, is great. I think my problem is that portability and maintenance of the Perl installation is a major pain the rear for me, even with the CPAN module or ppm in windows (although that does take care of many of my major issues - ppm). Perl modules are to me like the general's chicken, "Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly" (So, I Married an Axe Murderer, '93). They are addictive and so helpful. But they are disorganized and some report their version one way, others another way, and some don't report their version at all. Some modules are unnessarily compiled in c/c++. While this might buy performance, most of them don't compile reliably and rpms/pkgs aren't avail for everything. .Net(the actual MS software, not the language) irritates me also because the language is okay/good but the MS implementation is a bloated infecting jumbled-of-piecemealed work that takes a buttload of time to install, probably won't uninstall (cleanly) and marks it's territory in as many places on your machine as it can (the infecting part). I don't think Perl needs a VM specifically, but more modules/additions should have been pure-perl (in Perl, for Perl, no compiling needed). Module contributors aren't frequently evaluated or really accountable, (recent thread on perlmonks.org with some intelligent discussion on this). Modules shouldn't have to go to the system libraries, or depend on 'expect' to be installed to use perl-expect. This destroys portability. I want something that runs on linux and windows, mac, etc. I spend most of my effort in Java nowadays because of this. I keep toying with the idea of a perl2class application that will (miraculously) dump a Perl script and all of it's C/C++ dependent modules and junk to a single .class file. Since I don't see how that could work, I just whine. =) I like perl a lot, but I would rather use it like I use Jython/Groovy in Java. Even then, I am getting hooked on Groovy and may just use that instead of perl. -Jason On Wednesday 30 November 2005 12:10, you wrote: > > Has anyone read MJD's "Higher Order Perl" book? > > Only the first chapter so far, but it's looking good. As expected. > > > If they come out with a 'Jerl' or some java scripting > > with perl syntax, then I might bury myself in it again. > > Just curious ... what don't you like about Perl scripting with perl syntax? > (Seriously - not a flame.. just wondering..) > > -- > Brian. -- -- Jason From jon at hogue.org Fri Dec 2 14:54:34 2005 From: jon at hogue.org (Jonathan Hogue) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:54:34 -0500 Subject: [Columbus-pm] has anyone perused 'Higher Order Perl', on monks and gripes In-Reply-To: <200512020020.32639.jalex@pobox.com> References: <200511292016.20343.jalex@pobox.com> <889858ad0511300910ied26100l4c381a94c9d4333c@mail.gmail.com> <200512020020.32639.jalex@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 12/2/05, J Alexander wrote: > First, my disclaimers - Perl is open source, module developers are likely not > paid, the community is a little more democratic than .Net or Java, and I > wouldn't be part of perl mongers if I didn't like it. I do use perl some > still for fun, but for work I use Java and most scripting can be done in > shell easily enough. Since java jdk 1.5 came out with regex support that > rivals Perl's, I have dumped a lot of perl parsing code for a java version. > =) I'm not sure the open source factor matters as much as the specific qualities of perl that make it hard for a large corporation to maintain. Examples of this include Linux/Apache. Also, missing is the very large corporate support for Perl as a development platform.... (ie, Sun and IBM's support for Java) > > Perl, as a language, is great. I think my problem is that portability and > maintenance of the Perl installation is a major pain the rear for me, even > with the CPAN module or ppm in windows (although that does take care of many > of my major issues - ppm). We have a dedicated team who supports this and other stuff. But I think a lot of companies would rather trust SUN or IBM to assure the quality of the library set than rely on a group of open source developers to do it... This is one of the values a large IT shop could provide to Perl to make it more palitable to a company like where I work. We would be more willing to accept open source code if IBM guaruntees that it will work. (and pays large financial penalties greater than or equal to the loss caused by bugs/failures) > I don't think Perl needs a VM specifically, but more modules/additions should > have been pure-perl (in Perl, for Perl, no compiling needed). Module > contributors aren't frequently evaluated or really accountable, (recent > thread on perlmonks.org with some intelligent discussion on this). Modules > shouldn't have to go to the system libraries, or depend on 'expect' to be > installed to use perl-expect. This destroys portability. A larger set of core library functionality would go a long way. ie, move the extra CPAN modules into the core Perl distribution. However, only certified-stable and pure only modules should be brought in. > I want something that runs on linux and windows, mac, etc. I spend most of my > effort in Java nowadays because of this. I keep toying with the idea of a > perl2class application that will (miraculously) dump a Perl script and all of > it's C/C++ dependent modules and junk to a single .class file. Since I don't > see how that could work, I just whine. =) If I hit the lottery, I'm going to donate a large portion of it to the Perl Foundation for the sake of accelerating Perl 6. It solves a bunch of these kinds of problems. In fact, because of the language architecture, you could compile your perl code into java byte code. (Although because of design decisions made in each language and therefore VM, Perl will never run as fast Java on the Java VM, and Java will never run as fast as Perl on the Perl 6 VM). > I like perl a lot, but I would rather use it like I use Jython/Groovy in Java. > Even then, I am getting hooked on Groovy and may just use that instead of > perl. Java classes could be written to add certain perl-isms.... ie, Jerl. I wonder if there is significance that on a Perl users group, we agree that it's easier to use Java in the corporation? From lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com Wed Dec 7 14:28:03 2005 From: lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com (Len Jaffe) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Columbus-pm] perl/xml/unix gig availabale Message-ID: <20051207222803.47686.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> If you are interested in a 4-6 week perl/xml/unix gig. Get in touch with me. Thanks. Len. Leonard A. Jaffe lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com Leonard Jaffe Computer Systems Consulting Ltd. Columbus, OH, USA 614-404-4214 F: 530-380-7423 From jalex at pobox.com Tue Dec 13 20:56:58 2005 From: jalex at pobox.com (J Alexander) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:56:58 -0500 Subject: [Columbus-pm] Fwd: Apress Quarterly UG Newsletter--Anything good? Message-ID: <200512132356.58839.jalex@pobox.com> Apress User Group Newsletter Issue 4; Quarter 4, 2005 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sections: 1. Apress Affiliate Program-Make Money! 2. Ablog--The Apress Weblogs 3. Special Offers and Promotions 4. The Apress SuperIndex 5. Ajax--Check It Out 6. The Latest Apress Books--Hot Off the Press 7. Forthcoming Books--Winter Releases *************************************** 1. Apress Affiliate Program--Make Money! We're pleased to introduce the Apress Affiliate Program, which benefits online communities, website owners, and bloggers who publicly recognize Apress books and help generate sales. The program credits affiliates who link to Apress eBooks a 10% commission on eBook sales when their visitors click through and purchase Apress eBooks. Setup is free and an account is easy to maintain. We'll supply affiliates with images or text links to place on their sites. Then at the beginning of every month, we'll send a check to each affiliate for the previous month's commissions. For more details and to set up an affiliate account, visit http://www.apress.com/affiliate/ *************************************** 2. Ablog--The Apress Weblogs Visit the new and improved Ablog to be a part of inside opinion and the latest industry talk. You'll find timely posts from Apress' own authors, editors, and readers. (And be sure to check out postings by Gary Cornell, Apress publisher and voice behind the creative insightful "Gary's Eclectic Thoughts-From the Publisher.") Apress is proud to provide this venue, combining authors, technologists, employees, and the publisher-all on one floor, thinking out loud and outside of the box. Ablog is RSS enabled and supports RSS1, RSS2, and Atom formats. Subscribe and stay current: http://blogs.apress.com/ *************************************** 3. Special Offers and Promotions A. eBooks: 1. We're offering a FREE companion eBook with the purchase of any of our selected .NET 2.0 titles. But only early adopters can take advantage of this opportunity-so hurry and buy your copy from your favorite bookseller. Then look for the URL and instructions on the back page of the book, to claim your free eBook version! http://www.apress.com/misc/promo.html 2. Sharing an eBook discount is now as easy as sending a postcard from our sister site, ASPToday.com-so keep in touch with a friend and receive a hefty total 60% savings off an eBook price. 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But it doesn't stop there--we have three more books in the works for Web developers who want to catch the Ajax wave and ride it all the way to the bank as they impress clients with the coolest WebDev technology around. Check out what's new and on the horizon: "Foundations of Ajax" (also available as an eBook) By Ryan Asleson and Nathaniel T. 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Forthcoming Books--Winter Releases "Microsoft SharePoint: Building Office 2003 Solutions, Second Edition" By Scot P. Hillier To publish December 2005 | ISBN: 1-59059-575-0 | 416 pages | $59.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10055 "Pro JSP 2, Fourth Edition" Edited by Kevin Mukhar To publish December 2005 | ISBN: 1-59059-513-0 | 650 pages | $49.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=464 "SQL Server 2005 T-SQL Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach" By Joseph Sack To publish December 2005 | ISBN: 1-59059-570-X | 768 pages | $59.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10045 "Beginning ASP.NET 2.0 IN C#: From Novice to Professional" By Matthew MacDonald and Julian Templeman To publish January 2006 | ISBN: 1-59059-572-6 | 1,100 pages | $49.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10035 "Beginning PHP and MySQL 5: From Novice to Professional, Second Edition" By W. Jason Gilmore To publish January 2006 | ISBN: 1-59059-552-1 | 900 pages | $44.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10017 "The Definitive Guide to ImageMagick" By Michael Still To publish December 2005 | ISBN: 1-59059-590-4 | 360 pages | $49.99 http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10052 *************************************** We do not send unsolicited newsletters. You received this because you or a previous contact registered a user group on http://www.apress.com. To be removed from the Apress user group newsletter mailing list, please click here: http://www.apress.com/misc/optout2.html?e=jalex%40pobox.com&h=5ed01608fa9611 1649026726005943f4&l=17 Please do not reply to this e-mail. Instead, e-mail info at apress.com and we'll reply to your query. Apress - The Expert's Voice(TM) 2560 Ninth St, Suite 219 Berkeley, CA 94710 510-549-5930 ------------------------------------------------------- -- -- Jason