From me at heyjay.com  Sun May 17 09:49:48 2020
From: me at heyjay.com (Jay S)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 11:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
Message-ID: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.  How do make
a list out of a hash?

Instead of:
my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
my $GameType = $data{GameType};

I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper
incantation:
my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID GameCode
DateStarted GameType]);

Thanks
Jay
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From kent at c2group.net  Sun May 17 10:06:44 2020
From: kent at c2group.net (Kent Cowgill)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 12:06:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14874546-1445-499c-83df-653d2f4cb11a@www.fastmail.com>

Googling for "hash slice" should get you what you need.

-Kent

On Sun, May 17, 2020, at 11:49 AM, Jay S wrote:
> Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
> I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
> I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff. How do make a list out of a hash?
> 
> Instead of:
> my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
> my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
> my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
> my $GameType = $data{GameType};
> 
> I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper incantation:
> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
> 
> Thanks
> Jay
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
> 
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From jkeenan at pobox.com  Sun May 17 12:01:45 2020
From: jkeenan at pobox.com (James E Keenan)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:01:45 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>

On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
> Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
> I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
> I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.? How do 
> make a list out of a hash?
> 
> Instead of:
> my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
> my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
> my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
> my $GameType = $data{GameType};
> 
> I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper 
> incantation:
> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =?@data(qw[ClubID 
> GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
> 

You probably want:

my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =
   @data{qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]};

i.e., braces instead of parens to indicate hash slice.

From me at heyjay.com  Sun May 17 18:26:04 2020
From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 20:26:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
References: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <0A690505-46E9-4C5E-83CC-28EABBE338EF@heyjay.com>

Right, thanks 
I forgot

Jay Strauss 
312.617.0264

Please excuse typos
Sent from my iPhone

> On May 17, 2020, at 2:02 PM, James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
>> Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
>> I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
>> I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.  How do make a list out of a hash?
>> Instead of:
>> my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
>> my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
>> my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
>> my $GameType = $data{GameType};
>> I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper incantation:
>> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
> 
> You probably want:
> 
> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =
>  @data{qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]};
> 
> i.e., braces instead of parens to indicate hash slice.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk

From me at heyjay.com  Sun May 17 18:27:20 2020
From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 20:27:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
References: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <A162D9E0-66F9-409C-8BDD-1D1231F0A8A9@heyjay.com>

Thank you for the syntax 
Looks so obvious now


Jay Strauss 
312.617.0264

Please excuse typos
Sent from my iPhone

> On May 17, 2020, at 2:02 PM, James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
>> Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
>> I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
>> I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.  How do make a list out of a hash?
>> Instead of:
>> my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
>> my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
>> my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
>> my $GameType = $data{GameType};
>> I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper incantation:
>> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
> 
> You probably want:
> 
> my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =
>  @data{qw[ClubID GameCode DateStarted GameType]};
> 
> i.e., braces instead of parens to indicate hash slice.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk

From lembark at wrkhors.com  Sun May 17 23:30:36 2020
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 01:30:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>

On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:01:45 -0400
James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:

> On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
> > Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
> > I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
> > I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.? How
> > do make a list out of a hash?
> > 
> > Instead of:
> > my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
> > my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
> > my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
> > my $GameType = $data{GameType};
> > 
> > I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper 
> > incantation:
> > my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =?@data(qw[ClubID 
> > GameCode DateStarted GameType]);

You are looking for a "hash slice":

Quick refresher: The data type you are extracting from is specified
by curly or square braces:

  foo{ ... }  access foo as a  hash
  foo[ ... }  access foo as an an array

You are extracting a list of values (vs. key+value pairs) which 
leaves you with:

    @foo{ ... }

to pull out the values of interest.

qw takes open-close pairs, I tend to prefer parens since they look 
look more "list-ish" to me and doesn't get mistaken for an arrayref.

Leaves:

    my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) 
    = @data{ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) };

or 
    my @keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ]; 

    ...

    my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @keyz };

or

    state $keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ]; 

    ...

    my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @$keyz };


Note that perl recently added a "kv-slice" which returns the 
keys and values using a '%' sigil instead of '@':

    my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = %data{ @keyz };

this would provide a list of key-value pairs suitable for assigning
to a new hash (if you saw that while experimenting you mistyped a 
'%' instead of a '@'.

Zei gesund

-- 
Steven Lembark
Workhorse Computing
lembark at wrkhors.com
+1 888 359 3508

From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Mon May 18 03:13:50 2020
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 13:13:50 +0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
 <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>
Message-ID: <20200518131350.21ba84e2@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi Steven,

On Mon, 18 May 2020 01:30:36 -0500
Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:01:45 -0400
> James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:  
> > > Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
> > > I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
> > > I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.? How
> > > do make a list out of a hash?
> > > 
> > > Instead of:
> > > my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
> > > my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
> > > my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
> > > my $GameType = $data{GameType};
> > > 
> > > I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper 
> > > incantation:
> > > my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) =?@data(qw[ClubID 
> > > GameCode DateStarted GameType]);  
> 
> You are looking for a "hash slice":
> 
> Quick refresher: The data type you are extracting from is specified
> by curly or square braces:
> 
>   foo{ ... }  access foo as a  hash
>   foo[ ... }  access foo as an an array
> 
> You are extracting a list of values (vs. key+value pairs) which 
> leaves you with:
> 
>     @foo{ ... }
> 
> to pull out the values of interest.
> 
> qw takes open-close pairs, I tend to prefer parens since they look 
> look more "list-ish" to me and doesn't get mistaken for an arrayref.
> 
> Leaves:
> 
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) 
>     = @data{ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) };
> 
> or 
>     my @keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ]; 
> 

You should use "(" instead of "[" and ")" instead of "]" there:

https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/#init_arrays_from_arrayrefs

my @keyz = ( qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ); 

>     ...
> 
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @keyz };
> 
> or
> 
>     state $keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ]; 
> 
>     ...
> 
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @$keyz };
> 
> 
> Note that perl recently added a "kv-slice" which returns the 
> keys and values using a '%' sigil instead of '@':
> 
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = %data{ @keyz };
> 
> this would provide a list of key-value pairs suitable for assigning
> to a new hash (if you saw that while experimenting you mistyped a 
> '%' instead of a '@'.
> 
> Zei gesund
> 



-- 

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
Humanity - Parody of Modern Life - https://shlom.in/humanity

I might be mad. But I?m a mad genius.
    ? https://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .

From me at heyjay.com  Mon May 18 07:26:00 2020
From: me at heyjay.com (Jay S)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:26:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
 <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>
Message-ID: <CANpdWGWXf+zJ01Rd-9WO2YJWwOJto63JrXmCmmAZd=1S9Tmz0g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve thanks for the write up.
It nice to hear from you.
Jay

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:58 AM Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:01:45 -0400
> James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
> > > Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
> > > I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
> > > I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.  How
> > > do make a list out of a hash?
> > >
> > > Instead of:
> > > my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
> > > my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
> > > my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
> > > my $GameType = $data{GameType};
> > >
> > > I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper
> > > incantation:
> > > my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID
> > > GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
>
> You are looking for a "hash slice":
>
> Quick refresher: The data type you are extracting from is specified
> by curly or square braces:
>
>   foo{ ... }  access foo as a  hash
>   foo[ ... }  access foo as an an array
>
> You are extracting a list of values (vs. key+value pairs) which
> leaves you with:
>
>     @foo{ ... }
>
> to pull out the values of interest.
>
> qw takes open-close pairs, I tend to prefer parens since they look
> look more "list-ish" to me and doesn't get mistaken for an arrayref.
>
> Leaves:
>
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType)
>     = @data{ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) };
>
> or
>     my @keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ];
>
>     ...
>
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @keyz };
>
> or
>
>     state $keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ];
>
>     ...
>
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @$keyz };
>
>
> Note that perl recently added a "kv-slice" which returns the
> keys and values using a '%' sigil instead of '@':
>
>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = %data{ @keyz };
>
> this would provide a list of key-value pairs suitable for assigning
> to a new hash (if you saw that while experimenting you mistyped a
> '%' instead of a '@'.
>
> Zei gesund
>
> --
> Steven Lembark
> Workhorse Computing
> lembark at wrkhors.com
> +1 888 359 3508
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
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From sean at blanton.com  Mon May 18 09:10:22 2020
From: sean at blanton.com (Sean Blanton)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:10:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] is this still on?
In-Reply-To: <CANpdWGWXf+zJ01Rd-9WO2YJWwOJto63JrXmCmmAZd=1S9Tmz0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANpdWGWULrneT882g5KUnosXLzZc3tEQwJCOZ3TqaCizdRt-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cd606bd-d4f2-5a9c-b67a-01e9a19a9408@pobox.com>
 <20200518013036.1bc1cb3f.lembark@wrkhors.com>
 <CANpdWGWXf+zJ01Rd-9WO2YJWwOJto63JrXmCmmAZd=1S9Tmz0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD0pDW4DxxL04LE4rZ4s5xp8gVqiv8Zh3N798zFDLQ+YoAx-Wg@mail.gmail.com>

I was glad to see an email on this channel once again!

Regards,
Sean

Sean Blanton
sean at blanton.com


On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 9:26 AM Jay S <me at heyjay.com> wrote:

> Hi Steve thanks for the write up.
> It nice to hear from you.
> Jay
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:58 AM Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:01:45 -0400
>> James E Keenan <jkeenan at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 5/17/20 12:49 PM, Jay S wrote:
>> > > Hi Perl mongers, I'm not sure if this list is still on|active.
>> > > I hope everyone is doing well and staying sane.
>> > > I haven't programmed in a long time and can't remember stuff.  How
>> > > do make a list out of a hash?
>> > >
>> > > Instead of:
>> > > my $ClubID = $data{ClubID};
>> > > my $GameCode = $data{GameCode};
>> > > my $DateStarted = $data{DateStarted};
>> > > my $GameType = $data{GameType};
>> > >
>> > > I'd like to do something like this but can't remember the proper
>> > > incantation:
>> > > my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data(qw[ClubID
>> > > GameCode DateStarted GameType]);
>>
>> You are looking for a "hash slice":
>>
>> Quick refresher: The data type you are extracting from is specified
>> by curly or square braces:
>>
>>   foo{ ... }  access foo as a  hash
>>   foo[ ... }  access foo as an an array
>>
>> You are extracting a list of values (vs. key+value pairs) which
>> leaves you with:
>>
>>     @foo{ ... }
>>
>> to pull out the values of interest.
>>
>> qw takes open-close pairs, I tend to prefer parens since they look
>> look more "list-ish" to me and doesn't get mistaken for an arrayref.
>>
>> Leaves:
>>
>>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType)
>>     = @data{ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) };
>>
>> or
>>     my @keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ];
>>
>>     ...
>>
>>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @keyz };
>>
>> or
>>
>>     state $keyz = [ qw( GameCode DateStarted GameType ) ];
>>
>>     ...
>>
>>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = @data{ @$keyz };
>>
>>
>> Note that perl recently added a "kv-slice" which returns the
>> keys and values using a '%' sigil instead of '@':
>>
>>     my ($ClubID, $GameCode, $DateStarted, $GameType) = %data{ @keyz };
>>
>> this would provide a list of key-value pairs suitable for assigning
>> to a new hash (if you saw that while experimenting you mistyped a
>> '%' instead of a '@'.
>>
>> Zei gesund
>>
>> --
>> Steven Lembark
>> Workhorse Computing
>> lembark at wrkhors.com
>> +1 888 359 3508
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago-talk mailing list
>> Chicago-talk at pm.org
>> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
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From lembark at wrkhors.com  Tue May 19 14:25:25 2020
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 16:25:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
Message-ID: <20200519162525.4c54157d.lembark@wrkhors.com>


Anyone using Raku?

-- 
Steven Lembark
Workhorse Computing
lembark at wrkhors.com
+1 888 359 3508

From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Tue May 19 22:33:31 2020
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 08:33:31 +0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
In-Reply-To: <20200519162525.4c54157d.lembark@wrkhors.com>
References: <20200519162525.4c54157d.lembark@wrkhors.com>
Message-ID: <20200520083331.1412d230@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi Steven!

On Tue, 19 May 2020 16:25:25 -0500
Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com> wrote:

> Anyone using Raku?
> 

I use Raku for https://github.com/shlomif/ci-gen-framework and a little for
https://github.com/shlomif/fc-solve/blob/master/fc-solve/scripts/fuzz-build.p6
and also contributed some Project Euler solutions to
https://github.com/Raku/examples/tree/master/categories/euler .

-- 

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
https://shlomifishswiki.branchable.com/Encourage_criticism_and_try_to_get_offended/

SGlau: I suppose serving here at the NSA is also one of your 99 problems?
Daniel: Hey, this place is at least ninety of my problems.
    ? https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Summerschool-at-the-NSA/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .

From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov  Wed May 20 06:43:01 2020
From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy Bach)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 13:43:01 +0000
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
Message-ID: <DM6PR09MB54480596DFE75C9FFDEC4DB6C0B60@DM6PR09MB5448.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>

I'm on the Raku/Perl6 lists and play with it but not anything real yet. It really is a different language, with lots of amazing new ways of doing stuff. Just don't feel like I'm ready to make it useful for actual work.  Just trying to learn it.
________________________________
From: Chicago-talk <chicago-talk-bounces+andy_bach=wiwb.uscourts.gov at pm.org> on behalf of Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 4:25 PM
To: Chicago.pm chatter <chicago-talk at pm.org>
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question


Anyone using Raku?

--
Steven Lembark
Workhorse Computing
lembark at wrkhors.com
+1 888 359 3508
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From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com  Wed May 20 06:52:11 2020
From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 08:52:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR09MB54480596DFE75C9FFDEC4DB6C0B60@DM6PR09MB5448.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM6PR09MB54480596DFE75C9FFDEC4DB6C0B60@DM6PR09MB5448.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFa6BoF9XVkYtviH3MxYboCMRM7ZwGHN=fqg_ARPQcFPchKZ3w@mail.gmail.com>

No I'm not using Raku. I'm bitter about the language to be honest. I feel
that it's extended gestation contributed to the stagnation of Perl5 and
it's fall from grace. At $work, we have decided to do no new development in
perl and actively migrate away from it. We were having problems finding
candidates that knew perl well enough. The recent college grads we've
interviewed didn't know perl at all.

So, no I'm not doing anything in Raku.

shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com
Software Engineer
Soccer Referee


On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:43 AM Andy Bach <Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov>
wrote:

> I'm on the Raku/Perl6 lists and play with it but not anything real yet. It
> really is a different language, with lots of amazing new ways of doing
> stuff. Just don't feel like I'm ready to make it useful for actual work.
> Just trying to learn it.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Chicago-talk <chicago-talk-bounces+andy_bach=
> wiwb.uscourts.gov at pm.org> on behalf of Steven Lembark <lembark at wrkhors.com
> >
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 4:25 PM
> *To:* Chicago.pm chatter <chicago-talk at pm.org>
> *Subject:* [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
>
>
> Anyone using Raku?
>
> --
> Steven Lembark
> Workhorse Computing
> lembark at wrkhors.com
> +1 888 359 3508
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
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From lembark at wrkhors.com  Sat May 23 22:34:12 2020
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 00:34:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Ovious question
In-Reply-To: <CAFa6BoF9XVkYtviH3MxYboCMRM7ZwGHN=fqg_ARPQcFPchKZ3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM6PR09MB54480596DFE75C9FFDEC4DB6C0B60@DM6PR09MB5448.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAFa6BoF9XVkYtviH3MxYboCMRM7ZwGHN=fqg_ARPQcFPchKZ3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200524003412.59cc1c32.lembark@wrkhors.com>


> No I'm not using Raku. I'm bitter about the language to be honest. I
> feel that it's extended gestation contributed to the stagnation of
> Perl5 and it's fall from grace. At $work, we have decided to do no
> new development in perl and actively migrate away from it. We were
> having problems finding candidates that knew perl well enough. The
> recent college grads we've interviewed didn't know perl at all.
> 
> So, no I'm not doing anything in Raku.

It's more like the Perl community shot outselves in the collective
foot marketing the language. 

Recall that no university ever taught Perl, so no college grads ever 
knew it. It was alwyas hard finding good Perl programmers, even in
the 1990s. The language is about getting things done, not fulfilling
the demands of a theoretical framework. At that point nobody has 
ever taught it, people picked it up on the job hacking *NIX servers
and websites.

Result: The people who did know Perl were largely SysAdmins and such, 
pople like MJD, Damian, and Larry are the minority in this community. 
None of us spent much time countering the various nitpicks, we just 
got our varous jobs done.

The world learned to hack dynamic code on Perl. We were *all* still
learning how to program as a profession in the 80's and 90's. As a
result, some really *shitty* code was writtin in Perl and a lot of 
people looked at it as said "Hey, shitty code gets written in Perl!"

Enter people who didn't like Perl becuase it wasn't theoretically
clean in whatever way they measure languages. They all did a much
better job of marketing than the Perl community. If people didn't
use Python they screamed bloody murder while the Perl community 
was saying "Fine, enjoy yourself, do what works." When Sun/Oracle
pushed Java as they way to make monkeys write Perfectly Kleen Kode
we did the same.

Net result; nobody really pushing Perl in the marketplace it got used 
less and less, which led to fewer people learning it, etc. 

Please note that none of this had anything whatever to do with Perl
itself, it was a massive lack of marketing by the Perl commuity. We
are by far our own worst enemies.

Calling the next language Perl6 was another massive marketing idiocy.
If our only purpose for developing Perl is ourselves then fine. But
in that case we don't really care if anyone uses it, or has any
interest in learning it, or if we can find a pool of people who know 
it. Otherwise, showing that we had a new language that looks more like
what people from other programming backgrounds expect these days then
picking a new name was helpful. By not changing the name until
after it was released we gave lots of people who don't think Perl is a 
"real" language the opportunity to pre-brand it as "more of that",
which we know it isn't.

Maybe with a new name people will begin teaching the language.

If you look carefully at the changes since around Perl 5.8 they
largely came from developments in Raku. They were largely not 
going to happen any other way because, frankly, many people who
work on Perl have no interest in changing it -- hell it's hard to
even get security fixes into it because so many people have "their
way" and fixing an obvioius bug would break it. 

One result of that was stagnation in the language. When everyone 
else started expecting coding to be a matter of plugging ever-
smaller pieces into frameworks we all wrote code that still looked
like C. 

Net result: Perl doesn't do things the way people understand how to
do them these days. That means people don't stop to learn it.

mod_perl is a perfect example: Designed by a bunch of C hackers,
we ripped the face off of Apache and dealt directly with all the
mess underneath. Writing anythig significant in mod_perl is hell.

Compare it to Plack: Much more hackable, flexiable, maintainable...
it's "modern". 

The entire "modern Perl" effort is an effort to drag many of the 
Perl community out of the 1990's midset on programming. Catch is
that the langauge can do what so many people cannot: Adapt.

The one suggestion I'd give you is you care at all about the Perl
language and community that comes with it, learn and contribute 
to Raku before the entire effort we put into it, defining the 
nature of dynamic programming in the first place, becomes a dead
end.

-- 
Steven Lembark
Workhorse Computing
lembark at wrkhors.com
+1 888 359 3508