From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 15:21:09 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:21:09 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] October Meeting? Message-ID: <49d805d70610031521t48ca8db1r484b3fefe5a81a30@mail.gmail.com> Anybody up for an October meeting... possibly on the 17th? If you have any presentation ideas and/or a meeting location, let me know. Josh From andy at petdance.com Wed Oct 4 11:54:56 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 13:54:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] David Golden Coming to Chicago: Oct 12 References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5925BA7F-B928-4F93-BE5C-305A6DEE2D2F@petdance.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "David Golden" > Date: October 4, 2006 1:53:28 PM CDT > To: andy at petdance.com, "Joshua McAdams" > Subject: Coming to Chicago: Oct 12 > > Dear Chicago Perl friends (at least the ones whose email addresses > I have handy), > > I'm going to be in Chicago for business on October 12. I will need > to be at a recruiting event at the University of Chicago from 7 to > 8:30pm, but I'd be interested in meeting up with you or other > Chicago Perl Mongers for drinks or dinner, everyone's schedules > permitting. > > Please let me know if that day works for you. > > Regards, > David > -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 06:27:56 2006 From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:27:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Let's go see the Camel! In-Reply-To: <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0609191453y5a5639bfl6d8ecd176eec20a6@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380609191459h385321b8n5253a3105231e0d1@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70609192210m5941626dx5c65b07f37169f82@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> When are we going?? anybody make a decision? :) On 9/20/06, brian d foy wrote: > > On 9/20/06, Joshua McAdams wrote: > > > I selfishly vote for oct 21 or 22 since I'll be out of town the > following. > > > > The Chicago Marathon is the 22nd, so if you choose that day, be > > prepared to push me along in a wheelchair because my legs will be > > hurting :) > > Oh, then October 22 is "See Josh Run, Run Josh Run" Day. > > -- > brian d foy > http://www.pair.com/~comdog/ > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl http://CodeSnipers.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061005/b249515e/attachment.html From e.ellington at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 07:12:21 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:12:21 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Let's go see the Camel! In-Reply-To: <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0609191453y5a5639bfl6d8ecd176eec20a6@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380609191459h385321b8n5253a3105231e0d1@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70609192210m5941626dx5c65b07f37169f82@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oct 21st still sounds good to me. On 10/5/06, Nola Stowe wrote: > When are we going?? anybody make a decision? > > :) > > > On 9/20/06, brian d foy wrote: > > On 9/20/06, Joshua McAdams wrote: > > > > I selfishly vote for oct 21 or 22 since I'll be out of town the > following. > > > > > > The Chicago Marathon is the 22nd, so if you choose that day, be > > > prepared to push me along in a wheelchair because my legs will be > > > hurting :) > > > > Oh, then October 22 is "See Josh Run, Run Josh Run" Day. > > > > -- > > brian d foy > > http://www.pair.com/~comdog/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago-talk mailing list > > Chicago-talk at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > > > > > -- > http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl > http://CodeSnipers.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From e.ellington at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 11:16:36 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:16:36 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation Message-ID: Hello all, I am working on a script that is using: This is perl, v5.8.6 built for MSWin32-x86-multi-thread (with 3 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) Copyright 1987-2004, Larry Wall Binary build 811 provided by ActiveState Corp. http://www.ActiveState.com ActiveState is a division of Sophos. Built Dec 13 2004 09:52:01 While running a script I started to get weird files in the directory the script is in. They only have names like {$time}++ and {'equivalent'} and are empty. These are parts of hashes in the script. The script does write a few files, but they are done with seemingly strait forward code. my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; $fn and $date never get any hashes or hash references assigned to them. Yet every now and then I keep getting these weird files. Has anyone run into this before? -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From andy at petdance.com Thu Oct 5 11:20:59 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:20:59 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Eric Ellington wrote: > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > > $fn and $date never get any hashes or hash references assigned to > them. Yet every now and then I keep getting these weird files. Has > anyone run into this before? Show us all the code, please. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From e.ellington at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 11:27:44 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:27:44 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The whole thing is huge, but here is the whole makefile sub. I am thinking that @info is being filled with junk sometimes. Sometimes these files have function names like "Date_Cmp($d ". How can a list be filled with code from the program? sub makefile { my($date, $fn, @info) = @_; my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; print $filename,"\n"; open(OUT,'>'.$filename) || die "COULD NOT OPEN $filename FOR OUTPUT "; print(OUT "\n"); print(OUT @info); close(OUT); } On 10/5/06, Andy Lester wrote: > > On Oct 5, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Eric Ellington wrote: > > > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > > > > $fn and $date never get any hashes or hash references assigned to > > them. Yet every now and then I keep getting these weird files. Has > > anyone run into this before? > > Show us all the code, please. > > -- > Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From andy at petdance.com Thu Oct 5 11:30:58 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:30:58 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDAC403-AE79-4C64-A08A-82C850D5B157@petdance.com> On Oct 5, 2006, at 1:27 PM, Eric Ellington wrote: > sub makefile > { > my($date, $fn, @info) = @_; > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > print $filename,"\n"; > > open(OUT,'>'.$filename) || > die "COULD NOT OPEN $filename FOR OUTPUT "; > > print(OUT "\n"); > print(OUT @info); > > close(OUT); > } Well, we need to see how @info is getting filled then. I would also suggest rewriting this as: sub makefile { my ($date,$fn, at info) = @_; my $filename = "$fn$date.csv"; print "Writing to $filename\n"; open( my $out, '>', $filename ) or die "Can't open $filename: $! \n"; print $out "\n"; print $out @info; close $out; } But let's see how you're putting stuff into @info. That's the real issue here. Perhaps you have a heredoc improperly closed? -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From amead at alanmead.org Thu Oct 5 11:39:12 2006 From: amead at alanmead.org (Alan Mead) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:39:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45255150.30406@alanmead.org> Eric Ellington wrote: >The whole thing is huge, but here is the whole makefile sub. I am >thinking that @info is being filled with junk sometimes. Sometimes >these files have function names like "Date_Cmp($d ". How can a list be >filled with code from the program? > >sub makefile > { > my($date, $fn, @info) = @_; > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > > The filename is being determined by the $date and $fn so it sounds like you're calling this function wrong. Also, I would probably pass \@info when you call and catch it as $info (and use it as @$info). I'd be tempted to use the shift style to retrieve and verify the arguments: sub makefile { my $date = shift or die "Hey, \$date is empty!"; my $fn = shift or die "Hey, \$fn is empty!"; my $info = shift or die "Hey, \$info is null"; my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; # ... Of course, if $date or $fn could ever be zero then you need to check more carefully. And if they have garbage, then they will pas this test... you could make better checks. -Alan -- Alan D. Mead, Ph.D. : amead at alanmead.org : 815-588-3846 Things equal to nothing else are equal to each other. From e.ellington at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 11:56:28 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:56:28 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: <45255150.30406@alanmead.org> References: <45255150.30406@alanmead.org> Message-ID: Sadly the script gives a list to the makefile sub many times in very different ways. I am going to go though the debugger for a while and see where things go bad. Thanks, On 10/5/06, Alan Mead wrote: > > > Eric Ellington wrote: > > >The whole thing is huge, but here is the whole makefile sub. I am > >thinking that @info is being filled with junk sometimes. Sometimes > >these files have function names like "Date_Cmp($d ". How can a list be > >filled with code from the program? > > > >sub makefile > > { > > my($date, $fn, @info) = @_; > > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > > > > > > > The filename is being determined by the $date and $fn so it sounds like > you're calling this function wrong. > > Also, I would probably pass \@info when you call and catch it as $info > (and use it as @$info). > > I'd be tempted to use the shift style to retrieve and verify the arguments: > > sub makefile > { > my $date = shift or die "Hey, \$date is empty!"; > my $fn = shift or die "Hey, \$fn is empty!"; > my $info = shift or die "Hey, \$info is null"; > > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > # ... > > Of course, if $date or $fn could ever be zero then you need to check > more carefully. And if they have garbage, then they will pas this > test... you could make better checks. > > -Alan > > > -- > Alan D. Mead, Ph.D. : amead at alanmead.org : 815-588-3846 > > Things equal to nothing else are equal to each other. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Oct 5 11:59:29 2006 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:59:29 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45255611.4030308@wrkhors.com> > the script is in. They only have names like {$time}++ and > {'equivalent'} and are empty. These are parts of hashes in the script. Looks like you have some single-quotes in your code. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From jon at jrock.us Thu Oct 5 12:28:17 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:28:17 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: <4DDAC403-AE79-4C64-A08A-82C850D5B157@petdance.com> References: <4DDAC403-AE79-4C64-A08A-82C850D5B157@petdance.com> Message-ID: <45255CD1.8090708@jrock.us> I prefer (at the advice of Dr. Conway ;) print {$out} "\n"; print {$out} @info; This makes it really easy to see that $out is a filehandle, not something you want printed. After all, "print $out" is perfectly valid by itself, depending on the contents of $out. Also, he would probably like: my $NEWLINE = qq{\n}; print {$out} $something, $NEWLINE; I admit I'm not going to be that extreme. > print $out "\n"; > print $out @info; > close $out; -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From brian.d.foy at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 12:46:38 2006 From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:46:38 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Strange file creation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2715accf0610051246t27169cb0y3146a9a93a13e7b0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Eric Ellington wrote: > The whole thing is huge, but here is the whole makefile sub. I am > thinking that @info is being filled with junk sometimes. Sometimes > these files have function names like "Date_Cmp($d ". How can a list be > filled with code from the program? > > sub makefile > { > my($date, $fn, @info) = @_; > my $filename = $fn . $date . '.csv'; > print $filename,"\n"; This is where Carp's cluck() function comes in handy. It can give you a backtrace to help you find who's passing what to which function. However, in its present form it needs a little extra help, so check out the modifications I made to Carp::format_arg for the debugging chapter of Mastering Perl: http://www.pair.com/comdog/mastering_perl/Chapters/04.debugger.html -- brian d foy http://www.pair.com/~comdog/ From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Sun Oct 8 20:05:52 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:05:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] PM T-Shirts Are Here!!! Message-ID: <49d805d70610082005y607cff20jd886861d25f80b80@mail.gmail.com> The Perl Mongers t-shirts that we ordered from Omaha.pm have arrived... actually, they arrived about a week ago, but I've been out-of-town some and just really busy :( Anyway, I think that I have the wiki updated as far as who has their shirts now and also who has paid. Please check and make sure that I have you updated correctly. Also, let me know when and where to meet up and distribute the shirts. http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?perl_mongers_t_shirts Josh From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com Mon Oct 9 13:38:45 2006 From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:38:45 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Lunch Message-ID: <43e95380610091338m500b5986nfd15c5f77e1d7de3@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys ... lets do lunch! How about friday? Someone wanted to meet at a place other than Cafe Baci. What was it?? -- http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl http://CodeSnipers.com From andy at petdance.com Mon Oct 9 13:41:34 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:41:34 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How about if it's the 12th? And y'all could hook up with David? he's doing a lot of cool stuff, especially on Win32 perl: http://search.cpan.org/~dagolden/ On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:53 PM, David Golden wrote: > Dear Chicago Perl friends (at least the ones whose email addresses > I have handy), > > I'm going to be in Chicago for business on October 12. I will need > to be at a recruiting event at the University of Chicago from 7 to > 8:30pm, but I'd be interested in meeting up with you or other > Chicago Perl Mongers for drinks or dinner, everyone's schedules > permitting. > > Please let me know if that day works for you. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com Tue Oct 10 17:11:51 2006 From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:11:51 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e95380610101711l3134088dp434559b5449f3f88@mail.gmail.com> Ok guys, David changed his flight schedule to be in town for Lunch! So it is definately Thursday (Oct 12)! Where do you guys want to meet? Mike Stemle -- were you the one with the suggestion of the other place?? If nobody has any suggestions by Noon tomorrow -- its going to be Cafe Baci as usual! :) On 10/9/06, Andy Lester wrote: > How about if it's the 12th? And y'all could hook up with David? > he's doing a lot of cool stuff, especially on Win32 perl: > http://search.cpan.org/~dagolden/ > > > On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:53 PM, David Golden wrote: > > > Dear Chicago Perl friends (at least the ones whose email addresses > > I have handy), > > > > I'm going to be in Chicago for business on October 12. I will need > > to be at a recruiting event at the University of Chicago from 7 to > > 8:30pm, but I'd be interested in meeting up with you or other > > Chicago Perl Mongers for drinks or dinner, everyone's schedules > > permitting. > > > > Please let me know if that day works for you. > > -- > Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl http://CodeSnipers.com From andy at petdance.com Tue Oct 10 18:01:53 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:01:53 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: <43e95380610101711l3134088dp434559b5449f3f88@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610101711l3134088dp434559b5449f3f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11FFE31A-8E73-4447-AAA8-695AD7A81494@petdance.com> On Oct 10, 2006, at 7:11 PM, Nola Stowe wrote: > Ok guys, David changed his flight schedule to be in town for Lunch! So > it is definately Thursday (Oct 12)! Glad that worked out. I will not be able to be there, so have fun in my place. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From brian.d.foy at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 01:03:51 2006 From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:03:51 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: <11FFE31A-8E73-4447-AAA8-695AD7A81494@petdance.com> References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610101711l3134088dp434559b5449f3f88@mail.gmail.com> <11FFE31A-8E73-4447-AAA8-695AD7A81494@petdance.com> Message-ID: <2715accf0610110103j70efc1f8m3279c2c32c5d6a24@mail.gmail.com> On Oct 10, 2006, at 7:11 PM, Nola Stowe wrote: > Ok guys, David changed his flight schedule to be in town for Lunch! So > it is definately Thursday (Oct 12)! Why does lunch have to be so early? I mean, hundreds of years ago they didn't even have programmers, so what did they know about proper meal times? Oh well, I guess I can go without sleep on Thursday. :) From brian.d.foy at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 01:08:35 2006 From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:08:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Let's go see the Camel! In-Reply-To: References: <2715accf0609191453y5a5639bfl6d8ecd176eec20a6@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380609191459h385321b8n5253a3105231e0d1@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70609192210m5941626dx5c65b07f37169f82@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2715accf0610110108n562ed417x6c2d3ed7ee88b99a@mail.gmail.com> I talked to the zoo today (Damn you Columbus Day!) and found out that the woman who takes care of the Adopt-A-Camel is on vacation until next week. That explains why she hasn't gotten back to me. :) I should know more next week. If the Camel thing doesn't go down on the 21st, you can spend your free time cheering on Josh while he runs 26.2 miles, all at once. Lunch at noon, running halfway to Wisconsin, and vacations. What a crazy world. From manchicken at notsosoft.net Wed Oct 11 05:18:30 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:18:30 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: <2715accf0610110103j70efc1f8m3279c2c32c5d6a24@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> <11FFE31A-8E73-4447-AAA8-695AD7A81494@petdance.com> <2715accf0610110103j70efc1f8m3279c2c32c5d6a24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610110718.36772.manchicken@notsosoft.net> I've got a lunch with a good buddy before he leaves town on Thursday, so I guess I'll miss this one. I hope you all have a great time! On Wednesday 11 October 2006 03:03, brian d foy wrote: > On Oct 10, 2006, at 7:11 PM, Nola Stowe wrote: > > Ok guys, David changed his flight schedule to be in town for Lunch! So > > it is definately Thursday (Oct 12)! > > Why does lunch have to be so early? I mean, hundreds of years ago they > didn't even have programmers, so what did they know about proper meal > times? > > Oh well, I guess I can go without sleep on Thursday. :) > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061011/1adef922/attachment.bin From vosedj at yahoo.com Wed Oct 11 05:17:00 2006 From: vosedj at yahoo.com (Deborah Vose) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Chicago-talk] Your PerlSIG presentation - Nov 14 In-Reply-To: <200609202026.40623.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <20061011121700.18063.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> Michael, I am putting together the information for the November 14th PerlSIG meeting to place on our website. Would you please send a abstract and bio as soon as possible. Let me know if you have any other questions. Looking forward to hearing your presentation. Thanks, Debi "Michael D. Stemle, Jr." wrote: Sure. I'd love to give a hand. Are there any specific AJAX-related questions folks would like answered? Due to the nature of the topic, there will be a fair amount of javascript, so it won't be for the faint of heart ;) f --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1?/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061011/4857f107/attachment.html From jon at jrock.us Wed Oct 11 08:08:43 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:08:43 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <452D08FB.9010308@jrock.us> BTW, if David is at the UofC, does anyone want to meet down here in Hyde Park for some sort of food related activity? The UofC is about 60 blocks closer to my workplace than downtown ;) Andy Lester wrote: > How about if it's the 12th? And y'all could hook up with David? > he's doing a lot of cool stuff, especially on Win32 perl: > http://search.cpan.org/~dagolden/ > > > On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:53 PM, David Golden wrote: > >> Dear Chicago Perl friends (at least the ones whose email addresses >> I have handy), >> >> I'm going to be in Chicago for business on October 12. I will need >> to be at a recruiting event at the University of Chicago from 7 to >> 8:30pm, but I'd be interested in meeting up with you or other >> Chicago Perl Mongers for drinks or dinner, everyone's schedules >> permitting. >> >> Please let me know if that day works for you. > > -- > Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From e.ellington at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 08:12:31 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:12:31 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl lunch In-Reply-To: <452D08FB.9010308@jrock.us> References: <5d4beb40610041153j1281c4b7h6d16bdcb62c3106a@mail.gmail.com> <452D08FB.9010308@jrock.us> Message-ID: I would be down for a Hyde Park / South side lunch. -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 10:59:30 2006 From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:59:30 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Lunch in the Loop Message-ID: <43e95380610111059j45d6c03fxc59e0cff8b50b9f4@mail.gmail.com> Since nobody else has named a time or location ... to all who are able: Lets meet at the same location as usual. Cafe Baci 2 North La Salle Thursday, Oct 12 11:45am -- http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl http://CodeSnipers.com From warren.lindsey at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 12:44:45 2006 From: warren.lindsey at gmail.com (Warren Lindsey) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:44:45 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Lunch in the Loop In-Reply-To: <43e95380610111059j45d6c03fxc59e0cff8b50b9f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <43e95380610111059j45d6c03fxc59e0cff8b50b9f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <841e880a0610111244l5b72852ah6c3dcf8d0ee2500e@mail.gmail.com> I'm in On 10/11/06, Nola Stowe wrote: > Since nobody else has named a time or location ... to all who are able: > > Lets meet at the same location as usual. > > Cafe Baci > 2 North La Salle > Thursday, Oct 12 > 11:45am > > > -- > http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl > http://CodeSnipers.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From jon at jrock.us Wed Oct 11 12:48:15 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Fwd: [Catalyst] Gentlemen, a call to arms!] Message-ID: <452D4A7F.9020103@jrock.us> I'm forwarding this on with the disclaimer "-1 Flamebait". -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Catalyst] Gentlemen, a call to arms! Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 20:34:49 +0100 From: Matt S Trout Reply-To: The elegant MVC web framework To: The elegant MVC web framework , dbix-class at lists.rawmode.org, "London.pm Perl M[ou]ngers" , maypole-users at lists.sourceforge.net, RDBO , "Classdbi at Lists. Digitalcraftsmen. Net" http://www.plat-forms.org/faq.htm They're having a platform war. We're forever left out of the ruby vs. python games, the "enterprise" people ignore us (though really, I'm not sure I mind that :) but ... "We have been considering Perl as one of the platforms to be admitted to the contest. So far, we have decided against it because we believe that too few professionals use it professionally for us to hope to get enough requests for admittance for the Perl platform. If you are a team that would like to participate and would like to use Perl, please contact prechelt at inf.fu-berlin.de (Lutz Prechelt)." This is a bit of a shotgun e-mail. Several list admins are probably going to attempt to track me down and shoot me in the head. I don't care. Our community has repeatedly failed to market it's way out of a paper bag, I've even helped contribute to this with my eminently forgettable London Web Frameworks Night talk. But this is about producing working code. *That* we know we can do. Stand up and be counted. It's gotta be good for a laugh if nothing else. *dons asbestos suit, hides under desk* -- Matt S Trout Offering custom development, consultancy and support Technical Director contracts for Catalyst, DBIx::Class and BAST. Contact Shadowcat Systems Ltd. mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for more information + Help us build a better perl ORM: http://dbix-class.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ + _______________________________________________ List: Catalyst at lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst at lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From e-just at northwestern.edu Wed Oct 11 13:22:22 2006 From: e-just at northwestern.edu (Eric Just) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:22:22 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Fwd: [CDBI] Gentlemen, a call to arms! Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20061011152203.09616670@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> > > >http://www.plat-forms.org/faq.htm > >They're having a platform war. We're forever left out of the ruby vs. >python games, the "enterprise" people ignore us (though really, I'm not >sure I mind that :) but ... > >"We have been considering Perl as one of the platforms to be admitted to >the contest. So far, we have decided against it because we believe that >too few professionals use it professionally for us to hope to get enough >requests for admittance for the Perl platform. > >If you are a team that would like to participate and would like to use >Perl, please contact prechelt at inf.fu-berlin.de (Lutz Prechelt)." > >This is a bit of a shotgun e-mail. Several list admins are probably going >to attempt to track me down and shoot me in the head. I don't care. > >Our community has repeatedly failed to market it's way out of a paper bag, >I've even helped contribute to this with my eminently forgettable London >Web Frameworks Night talk. But this is about producing working code. >*That* we know we can do. > >Stand up and be counted. It's gotta be good for a laugh if nothing else. > >*dons asbestos suit, hides under desk* > >-- > Matt S Trout Offering custom development, consultancy and support > Technical Director contracts for Catalyst, DBIx::Class and BAST. Contact >Shadowcat Systems Ltd. mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for more information > >+ Help us build a better perl ORM: http://dbix-class.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ + > >_______________________________________________ >ClassDBI mailing list >ClassDBI at lists.digitalcraftsmen.net >http://lists.digitalcraftsmen.net/mailman/listinfo/classdbi ============================================ Eric Just e-just at northwestern.edu dictyBase Programmer Center for Genetic Medicine Northwestern University http://dictybase.org ============================================ From frag at ripco.com Wed Oct 11 14:35:39 2006 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:35:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Chicago-talk] Fwd: [CDBI] Gentlemen, a call to arms! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20061011152203.09616670@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> References: <6.1.1.1.2.20061011152203.09616670@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: But note, from http://www.plat-forms.org/important_dates.htm: # 2007-01-24: Teams set up their development environments AT THE CONTEST SITE. [my uc() there] ...which happens to be Nurnberg, Germany. -- Mike F. From kent at c2group.net Wed Oct 11 14:42:35 2006 From: kent at c2group.net (Kent Cowgill) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:42:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Fwd: [CDBI] Gentlemen, a call to arms! In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20061011152203.09616670@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: If the word gets out far and wide enough, it will spread to people who are either fairly local to N?rnberg, or who have the capability (dollars & time) to setup their environments there. -Kent Cowgill C2 Group, Inc. kent at c2group.net http://www.c2group.net 312.804.0160 On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:35 PM, Mike Fragassi wrote: > > > But note, from http://www.plat-forms.org/important_dates.htm: > > # 2007-01-24: Teams set up their development environments AT THE > CONTEST SITE. [my uc() there] > > ...which happens to be Nurnberg, Germany. > > -- Mike F. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From jon at jrock.us Wed Oct 11 15:21:46 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Fwd: [CDBI] Gentlemen, a call to arms! In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20061011152203.09616670@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: <452D6E7A.1060706@jrock.us> As someone mentioned on #catalyst, all the perl developers are busy writing real apps. Very sad that we don't have time to play with Zend's toy framework (and "programming language", if you can call it that :) My apologies for taking the flamebait :) Kent Cowgill wrote: > If the word gets out far and wide enough, it will spread to people > who are either fairly local to N?rnberg, or who have the capability > (dollars & time) to setup their environments there. > -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From jim at jimandkoka.com Thu Oct 12 08:55:07 2006 From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:55:07 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] PM T-Shirts Are Here!!! In-Reply-To: <49d805d70610082005y607cff20jd886861d25f80b80@mail.gmail.com> References: <49d805d70610082005y607cff20jd886861d25f80b80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70610120855j5392ab29r9a88d6f82631f73b@mail.gmail.com> Well, and now I fall back on my original suggestion. Can I paypal you some extra cash on top of the payment ($12? $13?) for you to stuff it into an envelope and mail it up to me? I'm lazy that way, you see. -Jim.... On 10/8/06, Joshua McAdams wrote: > The Perl Mongers t-shirts that we ordered from Omaha.pm have > arrived... actually, they arrived about a week ago, but I've been > out-of-town some and just really busy :( Anyway, I think that I have > the wiki updated as far as who has their shirts now and also who has > paid. Please check and make sure that I have you updated correctly. > Also, let me know when and where to meet up and distribute the shirts. > > http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?perl_mongers_t_shirts > > Josh > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 13:01:55 2006 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:01:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain Message-ID: I have a colleague who is a python developer. He and I rib each other on our choice of languages, good natured stuff. We are working on porting some unsupported code to python in support of a business initiative. We came accross the lovely code below. He said this is the kind of code people talk about when they say perl isn't a great language. After reading it, if this indicative of some perl out there, I'd have to agree. We have made it anonymous to protect the guilty. sub findSprokets { my $sprokets = ''; my @tmp; $sproketDat = "/tmp/sprokets.dat" my $sproketAccum = qx(cat $sproketDat); $sproketAccum =~ s![\n\s\t]!!g; @tmp = split(/\+;/, $sproketAccum); foreach (@tmp) { unless (m!foobar!) { s!^foo!!g } } my $sp; foreach $sp (@tmp) { $sp =~ s!\\!!g; $sp =~ s!\n!!g; if ($sprokets) { $sprokets .= ' ' } $sprokets .= $sp; } return $sprokets; } my $tmp = findSprokets(); @sprokets = reverse sort( split(/ /, $tmp) ); -- shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From amead at alanmead.org Fri Oct 13 13:12:14 2006 From: amead at alanmead.org (Alan Mead) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:12:14 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> Shawn Carroll wrote: >initiative. We came accross the lovely code below. He said this is >the kind of code people talk about when they say perl isn't a great >language. After reading it, if this indicative of some perl out >there, I'd have to agree. > Ok, I'll bite. What's so terrible about this code? Using bangs for delimiting m// and s///? A complete lack of comments? I ask because I come across module code all the time that I cannot read. But this was no sweat, even though I was unfamiliar with stuff like qx{} .. it was clear what was going on. -- Alan D. Mead, Ph.D. : amead at alanmead.org : 815-588-3846 What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. -- Bertrand Russell, "Skeptical Essays", 1928 From jim at jimandkoka.com Fri Oct 13 13:29:11 2006 From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:29:11 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> References: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70610131329q4f60ad6ew59e5cdd3eb624f34@mail.gmail.com> >Ok, I'll bite. What's so terrible about this code? Just the stuff that jumps out at me, I'm sure there's more: sub findSprokets { my $sprokets = ''; # this should be my $sprokets = []; (maybe my @sprokets = ();) you'll see why later my @tmp; #should be down below. $sproketDat = "/tmp/sprokets.dat" #hardwired to some value. Might be nicer to be able to pass this in. Maybe leave this as a default, perhaps in a config file. my $sproketAccum = qx(cat $sproketDat); #shells out to cat to read in the file, very non-portable, very sloppy. $sproketAccum =~ s![\n\s\t]!!g; #\n and \t are superfluous. just \s works. At that point, tr/\s//d is better. @tmp = split(/\+;/, $sproketAccum); #should be my @tmp =, no reason to declare up above. foreach (@tmp) { unless (m!foobar!) { s!^foo!!g } } my $sp; foreach $sp (@tmp) { #old skool! foreach my $sp is better $sp =~ s!\\!!g; $sp =~ s!\n!!g; if ($sprokets) { $sprokets .= ' ' } $sprokets .= $sp; #egad. He's using a space delimited string as a pseudo array to split out later! # push @$sprokets, $sp; } return $sprokets; } my $tmp = findSprokets(); @sprokets = reverse sort( split(/ /, $tmp) ); # scrap this in favor of @sprokets = reverse sort @{ findSprokets() }; #the reverse, sort, and scalar/list context could also be moved into the function. But, I don't see anything in there that I'm going to fault perl over. Bad programmer? You betcha. Looks like someone who started on an older version of perl and has a shell scripting background. A past co-worker said she used to think of perl as just glorified shell scripting, and it wasn't 'til later that it clicked with her about why it was neat (or words to that effect). I don't think it's clicked with this person yet. I think your programmer friend could have (and would have) written it just as poorly in python or java or anything else. -Jim... On 10/13/06, Alan Mead wrote: > Shawn Carroll wrote: > > >initiative. We came accross the lovely code below. He said this is > >the kind of code people talk about when they say perl isn't a great > >language. After reading it, if this indicative of some perl out > >there, I'd have to agree. > > > Ok, I'll bite. What's so terrible about this code? Using bangs for > delimiting m// and s///? A complete lack of comments? > > I ask because I come across module code all the time that I cannot > read. But this was no sweat, even though I was unfamiliar with stuff > like qx{} .. it was clear what was going on. > > -- > Alan D. Mead, Ph.D. : amead at alanmead.org : 815-588-3846 > > What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, > which is the exact opposite. > -- Bertrand Russell, "Skeptical Essays", 1928 > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Fri Oct 13 13:33:05 2006 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:33:05 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> Message-ID: > it was clear what was going on. Okay, not to me but .... - $sproketAccum =~ s![\n\s\t]!!g; @tmp = split(/\+;/, $sproketAccum); foreach (@tmp) { unless (m!foobar!) { s!^foo!!g } } Um, delete all white space, split on '+;' and then, unless the word is "foobar" remove the prefix 'foo' (w/ the '^' anchor, the 'g' is unneeded)? Note that's using the $_ alias, so it alters @tmp. my $sp; foreach $sp (@tmp) { $sp =~ s!\\!!g; $sp =~ s!\n!!g; if ($sprokets) { $sprokets .= ' ' } $sprokets .= $sp; } okay, remove backslashes, '\n's (again) and append w/ a blank - so now we've got non-foo, non-whitespace 'sprokets' in a whitespace delim string. my $tmp = findSprokets(); @sprokets = reverse sort( split(/ /, $tmp) ); Reverse sort the result. Weird data. One guess for $sp =~ s!\\!!g; $sp =~ s!\n!!g; is that some sql results will backslash embedded delims (like a pipe) or \n in the data, so its harder to just split it up into records and then fields on naive split/matches using '\n' and the delim char. Something like: $sproketAccum =~ s/[\w\\]+//g; # remove whitespace/back slashes $sproketAccum =~ s/\bfoo(?!bar)//g; # remove non-foobar 'foo' $sproketAccum =~ s/\+;/ /g; # change separators maybe? a Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler Internet: andy_bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932 "The whole point of reserving these namespaces is not to prevent users from misusing them, but to ensure that when we eventually get around to using a particular block name, and those same users start screaming about it, we can mournfully point to the passage in the original spec and silently shake our heads. ;-)" Damian Conway, P6 list From amead at alanmead.org Fri Oct 13 13:34:59 2006 From: amead at alanmead.org (Alan Mead) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:34:59 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70610131329q4f60ad6ew59e5cdd3eb624f34@mail.gmail.com> References: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> <5cfdfaf70610131329q4f60ad6ew59e5cdd3eb624f34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <452FF873.1030205@alanmead.org> Jim Thomason wrote: >>Ok, I'll bite. What's so terrible about this code? >> >> > >Just the stuff that jumps out at me, I'm sure there's more: > >sub findSprokets { > my $sprokets = ''; ># this should be my $sprokets = []; (maybe my @sprokets = ();) you'll >see why later > my @tmp; >#should be down below. > > $sproketDat = "/tmp/sprokets.dat" >#hardwired to some value. Might be nicer to be able to pass this in. >Maybe leave this as a default, perhaps in a config file. > > Yeah. Ok. My question was actually: What about this code makes this make people want to use Python? Python prevents people from making design mistakes!? [ I thought that was the role of CS professors :) ] -- Alan D. Mead, Ph.D. : amead at alanmead.org : 815-588-3846 What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. -- Bertrand Russell, "Skeptical Essays", 1928 From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Fri Oct 13 13:44:29 2006 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:44:29 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One thing - this syntax: my $sp; foreach $sp (@tmp) { is subtly wrong - got this from Damian Conway at YAPC but - even strict/warnings won't help you; the $sp inside the foreach is *not* the 'my'-ed $sp from the line before. It gets silently localized w/i the loop: use strict; use warnings; my @tmp = qw(1 2 3); my $sp = 'hi'; foreach $sp (@tmp) { print "sp: $sp\n"; } print "sp: $sp\n"; gets: sp: 1 sp: 2 sp: 3 sp: hi Some folks try to use it to hold the last index value in a for loop. I guess P6 (and maybe 5.real soon now) fixes this bug. But: foreach my $sp (@tmp) { is what you want, or an explicit 'save' if you want to see the last value: my $save_sp; foreach my $sp (@tmp) { $save_sp = $sp .... } print "Last sp value: $save_sp\n"; a Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler Internet: andy_bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932 "The whole point of reserving these namespaces is not to prevent users from misusing them, but to ensure that when we eventually get around to using a particular block name, and those same users start screaming about it, we can mournfully point to the passage in the original spec and silently shake our heads. ;-)" Damian Conway, P6 list From e.ellington at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 13:48:02 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:48:02 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/13/06, Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote: > One thing - this syntax: > my $sp; > foreach $sp (@tmp) { I have made that mistake. -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From jim at jimandkoka.com Fri Oct 13 13:49:32 2006 From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <452FF873.1030205@alanmead.org> References: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> <5cfdfaf70610131329q4f60ad6ew59e5cdd3eb624f34@mail.gmail.com> <452FF873.1030205@alanmead.org> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> > Yeah. Ok. My question was actually: What about this code makes this > make people want to use Python? Shhhh! That's the secret you're not supposed to let out! There are people that legitimately argue that python or lisp or ruby or smalltalk or whatever are much better because you can only write things one way, so it's easier to maintain, so when the maintenance programmer comes out and determines you're a schmuck it's immediately obvious to him what you were doing and he can re-factor it easily. This is, of course, a total crock. Bad programmers are bad programmers and can screw up things like you wouldn't imagine regardless of the language. Admittedly, there's a lot of bad perl code out there, but all this tells me is that a lot of bad programmers use it. But, also, a lot of programmers are just bad. There may not be statistically more bad perl programmers than in other languages, you just may see more of the code. Perl is available all over the internet. How much open source cobol do you look at on a daily basis? -Jim.... From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Oct 13 14:52:14 2006 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 13 Oct 2006 14:52:14 -0700 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8664enhoj5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Bach writes: Andy> One thing - this syntax: Andy> my $sp; Andy> foreach $sp (@tmp) { Andy> is subtly wrong - got this from Damian Conway at YAPC but - even Andy> strict/warnings won't help you; the $sp inside the foreach is *not* the Andy> 'my'-ed $sp from the line before. It gets silently localized w/i the Andy> loop: But having said that, it was the *only* way to get a "local" var to work once "use strict" was turned on, before the "foreach my $foo" syntax was introduced in, I think, 5.004. Maybe even 5.005. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Fri Oct 13 15:01:59 2006 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:01:59 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <8664enhoj5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: > But having said that, it was the *only* way to get a "local" var to work once "use strict" was turned on, before the "foreach my $foo" syntax was introduced in, I think, 5.004. Maybe even 5.005. Hmm, maybe earlier, just happen to have a 5.004 around: # perl_5.004 -w /tmp/fo.pl sp: 1 sp: 2 sp: 3 sp: hi # cat /tmp/fo.pl use strict; #use warnings; my @tmp = qw(1 2 3); my $sp = 'hi'; foreach my $sp (@tmp) { print "sp: $sp\n"; } print "sp: $sp\n"; no complaints. I've got an older ver around here somewhere but .... a Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler Internet: andy_bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932 "The whole point of reserving these namespaces is not to prevent users from misusing them, but to ensure that when we eventually get around to using a particular block name, and those same users start screaming about it, we can mournfully point to the passage in the original spec and silently shake our heads. ;-)" Damian Conway, P6 list From manchicken at notsosoft.net Sat Oct 14 06:57:07 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:57:07 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <452FF873.1030205@alanmead.org> <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610140857.16154.manchicken@notsosoft.net> ANYBODY who's ever worked at a college or university that employed cheap student labor has seen **NASTY** things that no human eye should ever have to see in the form of code. I've seen **NASTY** Java, C (much nasty C), COBOL, Perl, PHP, bash, Python, and yes, even Ruby. I saw one guy who worked in all four of Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby. He fancied himself an "expert" and many others shared this view. One day, I was looking at his code and saw this this (the following code is a reproduction. Actual names have been changed to protect the innocent).... my $output = `psql studentdb -c "SELECT * FROM students WHERE student_id='$student_id';"` my @students = (); while (split(m/\n/,$output)) { my ($id,$name) = split(m/ \| /, $_); } He was **USING A SHELL ESCAPE TO HIT THE DATABASE!!** That would have been bad enough had he done it in only one place... but no. He did it EVERYWHERE, in all four Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby. I can only conclude that people will undoubtedly be idiots no matter what langauge they're using. Shell escapes to postgres' CLI and parsing the output is the WRONG way to do any DBMS interaction, but the guy did it successfully in four different languages. My heart goes out to the language zealots who incorrectly point the finger at Perl claiming it is somehow inferior. I hope that they somehow, in the future, gain some clue... as for now, they're a bit lacking. On Friday 13 October 2006 15:49, Jim Thomason wrote: > > Yeah. Ok. My question was actually: What about this code makes this > > make people want to use Python? > > Shhhh! That's the secret you're not supposed to let out! > > There are people that legitimately argue that python or lisp or ruby > or smalltalk or whatever are much better because you can only write > things one way, so it's easier to maintain, so when the maintenance > programmer comes out and determines you're a schmuck it's immediately > obvious to him what you were doing and he can re-factor it easily. > > This is, of course, a total crock. Bad programmers are bad programmers > and can screw up things like you wouldn't imagine regardless of the > language. > > Admittedly, there's a lot of bad perl code out there, but all this > tells me is that a lot of bad programmers use it. But, also, a lot of > programmers are just bad. There may not be statistically more bad perl > programmers than in other languages, you just may see more of the > code. Perl is available all over the internet. How much open source > cobol do you look at on a daily basis? > > -Jim.... > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061014/b47cd7cf/attachment.bin From jon at jrock.us Sat Oct 14 23:35:23 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 01:35:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610150135.27072.jon@jrock.us> > strict/warnings won't help you; the $sp inside the foreach is *not* the > 'my'-ed $sp from the line before. It gets silently localized w/i the The real subtlety is that $sp is actually the list element that you're iterating over: @foo = (1, 2, 3); print "@foo"; # 1 2 3 foreach my $sp (@foo){ $sp++; } print "@foo"; # 2 3 4 The same caveat applies to map and grep, of course. Don't let the "my" trick you into thinking you made a copy, like you do here: my $a = 0; foo($a); print "$a\n"; sub foo { my $bar = shift; # $bar++; # try $_[0]++ instead } (To achieve that in a for loop, do C or something similar.) Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061015/0e21a20e/attachment.bin From jon at jrock.us Sun Oct 15 00:05:46 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:05:46 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <200610140857.16154.manchicken@notsosoft.net> References: <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> <200610140857.16154.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <200610150205.50702.jon@jrock.us> > He was **USING A SHELL ESCAPE TO HIT THE DATABASE!!** That would have been > bad enough had he done it in only one place... but no. He did it > EVERYWHERE, in all four Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby. OTOH, Larry Wall suggests this: my $file = `cat $filename`; And I use this: my $website = `curl $url`; Perfect? No. Fast to type? Yes. Not everything is an enterprise web 2.0 uber-efficient app. In your case, though, the "production" code probably wasn't throwaway, so maybe someone should mention DBI to the guy :) -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061015/c59c4223/attachment.bin From jon at jrock.us Sun Oct 15 00:24:02 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:24:02 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610150224.06142.jon@jrock.us> This isn't so bad. The real problem is the use of prefix ifs instead of postfix ifs: > unless (m!foobar!) { s!^foo!!g } How about " s/foo//g unless /foobar/;". Much less typing. > if ($sprokets) { $sprokets .= ' ' } Same: $sprokets .= q{ } if $sprokets; The one time he should use an alternative separator, he misses the chance :) My analysis of legacy perl code is that often the author is trying to be smarter than he actually is. People think that because you CAN use m!!, you should. After all, not everyone knows that, so you must be smarter than them if you do know it! It's like kids in high school that are studying for the SAT and all of a sudden start using the obscure words in conversation. Maybe the obscure words make you look smarter, but eventually you get over their newness and start using the usual idioms instead (which makes your language much easier to understand). As with natural language, you need to read Perl to learn to speak Perl. The people's whose code we complain about often never bother to read Perl code, and instead extract "cool" parts from the manpage (if you're lucky... sometimes they just type stuff and it works). Developing your own "dialect" just doesn't work when you have to work with other people. (Example: I can read pretty much any perl, but it takes me much less time if people use common perl idioms. Same goes for English. I can read legalese, but I find the average slashdot post much easier to parse.) Anyway. here's the best piece of code that I've had to maintain: close(*STDERR); # ... several lines ... warn "this doesn't work for some reason"; There were some other WTFs in there, so I just rewrote it. (OK, here's another one: "echo $password | passwd". Ouch.) Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061015/3a3e541d/attachment.bin From manchicken at notsosoft.net Sun Oct 15 06:37:13 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:37:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <200610150205.50702.jon@jrock.us> References: <200610140857.16154.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <200610150205.50702.jon@jrock.us> Message-ID: <200610150837.25442.manchicken@notsosoft.net> My point is that terrible code is language independent. Idiocy is more portable than the code it generates ^_^ On Sunday 15 October 2006 02:05, Jonathan Rockway wrote: > > He was **USING A SHELL ESCAPE TO HIT THE DATABASE!!** That would have > > been bad enough had he done it in only one place... but no. He did it > > EVERYWHERE, in all four Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby. > > OTOH, Larry Wall suggests this: > > my $file = `cat $filename`; > > And I use this: > > my $website = `curl $url`; > > Perfect? No. Fast to type? Yes. > > Not everything is an enterprise web 2.0 uber-efficient app. > > In your case, though, the "production" code probably wasn't throwaway, so > maybe someone should mention DBI to the guy :) -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061015/161f2daf/attachment.bin From lembark at wrkhors.com Sun Oct 15 16:09:33 2006 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:09:33 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68D98163611B4C31EB228F9A@[192.168.1.2]> -- Shawn Carroll > We have made it anonymous to protect the guilty. > > sub findSprokets { > my $sprokets = ''; > my @tmp; > > $sproketDat = "/tmp/sprokets.dat" > > my $sproketAccum = qx(cat $sproketDat); > $sproketAccum =~ s![\n\s\t]!!g; > @tmp = split(/\+;/, $sproketAccum); > foreach (@tmp) { > unless (m!foobar!) { s!^foo!!g } > } > > my $sp; > foreach $sp (@tmp) { > $sp =~ s!\\!!g; > $sp =~ s!\n!!g; > > if ($sprokets) { $sprokets .= ' ' } > $sprokets .= $sp; > } > return $sprokets; > } > > my $tmp = findSprokets(); > @sprokets = reverse sort( split(/ /, $tmp) ); What does this have to do with Perl as a language? I can show you crummy-looking Java and Python [possibly the ugliest language I've seen...]. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Sun Oct 15 16:11:47 2006 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:11:47 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <452FF31E.7000202@alanmead.org> <5cfdfaf70610131329q4f60ad6ew59e5cdd3eb624f34@mail.gmail.com> <452FF873.1030205@alanmead.org> <5cfdfaf70610131349w6be14b30i6c10611365bad4e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <288091A04517648011BAC8A9@[192.168.1.2]> -- Jim Thomason > This is, of course, a total crock. Bad programmers are bad programmers > and can screw up things like you wouldn't imagine regardless of the > language. You can also write things multiple ways in Python, they just don't understand that fact. A better distinction might be that Perl gives the programmer control, where Python and Java give the author control -- since obviously the language's author knows sooooooo much more about what you have to do than you do. Right? -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From list at phaedrusdeinus.org Mon Oct 16 08:34:00 2006 From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (johnnnnnnn) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:34:00 +0000 Subject: [Chicago-talk] announcing TechCoffee, Season Two Message-ID: <20061016153359.GC8071@performics.com> >>>> Do you code on your own time? Do you *actually* code on your own time, or do you plan to, but spend more time cruising Digg and Slashdot? <<<< Four months ago, these questions started out the first season of TechCoffee. Well, it's time for season two, and here are the details: Friday mornings at 7am, join me and all the other TechCoffee coders at Caribou Coffee at LaSalle and Lake Street in Chicago. Once there, code. Season two will last for ten weeks. The first session will be this Friday, October 20th. The last session will be the TechCoffee Holiday Special on the friday prior to Christmas. That's all. There will be a sign-up sheet if you want to prove to yourself and others that you're doing your thing. There will be a wiki page if you want to recruit help or advertise yourself. And we know how long this season will last, so if you want to give yourself a schedule, feel free. Mostly, though, just show up and code. Check the website ( http://techcoffee.com/ ) or give me a holler if you have questions or whatnot. See you Friday morning! -johnnnnnnnnn From JJacobus at PonyX.com Mon Oct 16 08:34:09 2006 From: JJacobus at PonyX.com (Jim Jacobus) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20061016101358.0373b5d0@PonyX.com> So what's so unusual about bad code? Doesn't reflect at all on the language, but the programmer. In my 30+ years of programming, I've seen a lot of bad and indecipherable code written in a lot of languages. I used to make a pretty good living converting legacy code from multiple coders over multiple years into different programming languages. Although every language that comes along promises to be the "next big thing" that "auto documents" itself and reduces the number of lines of code and complexity. B.S. Every language is part of an evolutionary process that learns from the past and looks to take advantage of hardware and network advances. Each language brings it's own set of idiosyncrasies that create more complexity. For example, Java was one of the holy grails. However, over time, you see it is not as transparent and portable as originally described. It definitely has a place, but it's one of several solutions to address problems. I believe good programmers can work in multiple disciplines. Different tools work for different problems. When you work in multiple languages, you develop some defensive skills. A few I have is to try to document as much as I can as I go along. Minimum is to describe what a subroutine does and say what the input and output is. I also don't get too cleaver with code -- don't make assumptions that the next coder will understand discrete variable passed. The code example you including is a piece of crap since it doesn't define what it does and it doesn't use descriptive variables. Could have been written in any language -- including Python. From jon at jrock.us Mon Oct 16 09:28:08 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:28:08 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20061016101358.0373b5d0@PonyX.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061016101358.0373b5d0@PonyX.com> Message-ID: <4533B318.2090405@jrock.us> Most code is bad without context. It's even worse when "obfuscated" for posting to a mailing list. In my opinion, when a programmer calls code "bad", he really means "I didn't understand it in 10 seconds, so it sucks." I think that most programmers expect that other people's code look exactly like theirs. This is because they spend the most time looking at their own code (since they're writing it), and form a mental image of "good code" that coincidentally looks exactly like their own. If you want to get a better perspective on things, I suggest downloading your favorite CPAN modules and trying to add features (or fix bugs, whatever). You'll see things in the code you don't like. You need to get over the trivial things (variable names, spacing styles, s*** instead of s{}{}, etc.) and think about really improving the code. Factoring out common parts into a single (easily-testable) unit, documenting embedded magic (long regexes, algorithms copied from Knuth), and so on. I suggest looking at MJD's "Perl Repair Shop" -- he has the right idea there. Feel free to improve readability as you go along, but realize that code isn't bad just because it says "print STDERR 'foo'" instead of "print {*STDERR} 'foo'". > The code example you including is a piece of crap since it doesn't > define what it does and it doesn't use descriptive variables. Could > have been written in any language -- including Python. Like I said, it's not that bad. I don't know what it does (because it was obfuscated), but it's a small and digestible chunk. That's the most you can ask for, really. -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 16 17:45:18 2006 From: tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com (tiger peng) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? Message-ID: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, Recently, I am handling a couple of hierarchy data, such as purging log files, purging data base table without foreign key being implemented in DBMS, generating catalog XML files, etc. After searching CPAN without finding very simple/generic modules. So, I made one module for myself. It seems very convenient to me. I am wandering if it is worth to be put on CPAN? The module have only one recursive function, hierarchy_traverse, with the interface as below: ####### hierarchy_traverse($roots, # a scalar for one root, # or a ref to a list of roots, # or a ref to a list of list that contain information about the roots. \&get_children, # a function for get child nodes { #Options depth => 1, # how depth limitaion. (default undef, no limitation) pre_branch => sub {print "dir: ", $_[0],"\n"}, # the function called before visit childeren nodes post_branch => sub {}, # the fucntion called after visite all it children nodes bare_branch => sub {print "empty dir: ", $_[0],"\n"}, # the function for empty branches leaf => sub {...} # the function for leaf nodes is_leaf => sub { ! -d $_[0]} , # the function for check if a node is leaf # all default functions are default to be {} (do nothing and return false) } , } ); ######## And Here is a test script for that get total size of ".XML" file under some directions. hierTest.pl #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w use strict; use lib "/home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/lib"; use Hierarchy::Traverser; my $total_file_size; my $roots=["/home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin"];#, "/home/tiger/playground/p2000"]; hierarchy_traverse($roots, \&read_dir, { deepth=>1, #pre_branch => sub {print "dir: ", $_[0],"\n"}, post_branch => sub {}, #bare_branch => sub {print "empty dir: ", $_[0],"\n"}, is_leaf => sub { ! -d $_[0]} , leaf => sub {if ($_[0] =~ /\.xml/i) { print "file: $_[0]"; my $file_size = -s $_[0]; print "\t$file_size\n"; $total_file_size += $file_size} } , } ); print "total file size $total_file_size \n"; sub read_dir{ if (! -d $_[0]) { warn "Try to open dir where $_[0] is not dir\n"; return; } my $dirhandle; my $files =[]; opendir ($dirhandle, $_[0]) or die "Cannot open $_[0] dir"; while ( defined (my $file = readdir($dirhandle)) ) { next if $file =~ /^\.\.?$/; if (-l $file) {warn "Ignore $_[0]/$file, which is a link.\n"; next} push @$files, "$_[0]/$file"; } closedir $dirhandle; return $files; } Out put: Ignore /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/cvslink, which is a link. Ignore /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/tree1.data.link, which is a link. file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/catalog_print.xml 100739 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/catalog_xmlsimple.xml 83738 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/catalog_print_pretty.xml 93965 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/empty.xml 100739 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/catalog_xmlsimple_with_empty.xml 88969 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/allCata.xml 166937 file: /home/tiger/playground/tigercvs/powerReviews/bin/tmp.xml 79003 total file size 714090 From andy at petdance.com Mon Oct 16 17:48:15 2006 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? In-Reply-To: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F2CDE77-94B1-4C20-9E83-268D808A9207@petdance.com> On Oct 16, 2006, at 7:45 PM, tiger peng wrote: > Recently, I am handling a couple of hierarchy data, such as purging > log files, purging data base table without foreign key being > implemented in DBMS, generating catalog XML files, etc. > After searching CPAN without finding very simple/generic modules. > So, I made one module for myself. It seems very convenient to me. I > am wandering if it is worth to be put on CPAN? Why wouldn't it be? The cost is relatively low, and might be very useful to someone. Let me know if I can help provide any guidance on it. Be sure you use Module::Starter to start your distribution. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Mon Oct 16 19:59:12 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:59:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Fwd: [Chicago] Pizza, Beer + AJAX this Thursday In-Reply-To: <11f4cf090610161326q3871aa75o5ac19686d46c8510@mail.gmail.com> References: <11f4cf090610161326q3871aa75o5ac19686d46c8510@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49d805d70610161959j2f6a85c9x2cc760ffc49ea1ab@mail.gmail.com> Seen on the Chipy list... For those of you who like your source code open and your beer free, Laszlo Systems invites you to an evening of food and presentations on OpenLaszlo development. OpenLaszlo is an open-source platform for developing rich internet applications (pandora.com and laszlomail.com being prime examples). You write code in LZX that is then compiled to the runtime of your choice (currently Flash, with DHTML in the beta stage). If you like OOP and dynamic typechecking, then check out LZX. If you've ever thought, "There has to be a better way to build UIs for the web," then come on by to see what the fuss is about. Folks from the OpenLaszlo community will present what they've been building. WHO SHOULD ATTEND LZX newbies and seasoned Laszlo veterans alike are welcome. WHEN Thursday, October 19th, 2006 7:00pm ? 9:00pm WHERE Roundarch 350 N. Lasalle Street, 12th Floor Chicago, IL 60610 Phone:(866)-ROUNDARCH ** For more information or to register to attend, please visit**: http://www.laszlosystems.com/go/pizzabeerajaxchicago AGENDA 7:00 - 7:30 Welcome Drinks 7:30 - 7:35 Introduction 7:35 - 8:15 Showcase Updates and DHTML Runtime (David Temkin, Founder + CTO, Laszlo Systems) 8:15 - 8:45 Community Demos (10 minute slots. Presenters TBD -- see below) 8:45 - 9:30 Networking From frag at ripco.com Tue Oct 17 08:45:57 2006 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:45:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? In-Reply-To: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, tiger peng wrote: > Recently, I am handling a couple of hierarchy data, such as purging log > files, purging data base table without foreign key being implemented in > DBMS, generating catalog XML files, etc. After searching CPAN without > finding very simple/generic modules. So, I made one module for myself. > It seems very convenient to me. I am wandering if it is worth to be put > on CPAN? There are a few modules in the Tree:: heirarchy (Tree::Simple, Tree::DAG_Node) that do similar things. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't put yours on CPAN though. If you do, be sure to include test scripts for your module. -- Mike F. From tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 17 09:27:55 2006 From: tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com (tiger peng) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? Message-ID: <20061017162756.53013.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> The module proposed is just for traversing across hierarchy (tree, trees) structure inspired by Dominus's HOP. The function is not specified for growing trees, trimming trees, nor burning trees. Its behavior depends on the optional callback functions passed into it. By default, it only walks through the hierarchy structure without doing anything, except using some system resources. That?s what I mean generic. ----- Original Message ---- From: Mike Fragassi To: Chicago.pm chatter Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:45:57 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, tiger peng wrote: > Recently, I am handling a couple of hierarchy data, such as purging log > files, purging data base table without foreign key being implemented in > DBMS, generating catalog XML files, etc. After searching CPAN without > finding very simple/generic modules. So, I made one module for myself. > It seems very convenient to me. I am wandering if it is worth to be put > on CPAN? There are a few modules in the Tree:: heirarchy (Tree::Simple, Tree::DAG_Node) that do similar things. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't put yours on CPAN though. If you do, be sure to include test scripts for your module. -- Mike F. _______________________________________________ Chicago-talk mailing list Chicago-talk at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk From lembark at wrkhors.com Tue Oct 17 09:43:39 2006 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:43:39 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? In-Reply-To: References: <20061017004518.8852.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4535083B.3050803@wrkhors.com> >> Recently, I am handling a couple of hierarchy data, such as purging log >> files, purging data base table without foreign key being implemented in >> DBMS, generating catalog XML files, etc. After searching CPAN without >> finding very simple/generic modules. So, I made one module for myself. >> It seems very convenient to me. I am wandering if it is worth to be put >> on CPAN? Even if you use the module builder for what you eventually put on CPAN it's worth going through the steps once yourself by hand. It gives you a much better feel for what goes on in the process and can help spot errors in other people's modules. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Tue Oct 17 09:46:17 2006 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:46:17 -0400 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Is it worth to be put in CPAN? In-Reply-To: <20061017162756.53013.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061017162756.53013.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <453508D9.3020003@wrkhors.com> > The module proposed is just for traversing across > hierarchy (tree, trees) structure inspired by Dominus's > HOP. The function is not specified for growing trees, > trimming trees, nor burning trees. Its behavior depends > on the optional callback functions passed into it. By > default, it only walks through the hierarchy structure > without doing anything, except using some system > resources. That\xE2\x80'x99s what I mean > generic. So long as the module doesn't seriously break the perl distro there isn't any harm in putting it out there. Given the function of it is simple, work on creating a simple, well-documented interface. You could end up with a module that people use because they can use it :-) -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From bdoty at efs-us.com Tue Oct 17 09:25:18 2006 From: bdoty at efs-us.com (Brad Doty) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:25:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain Message-ID: Ok Shawn, I suppose it's kinda late to jump on this bandwagon, but here's my take. Congratulations! Even though you're part of that younger half-generation that grew up on books written by misguided authors who put the curly braces in the wrong place, you realize this code would be much prettier with properly-placed braces like foreach () { Just do it; } Alignment form follows function. And I salute you for recognizing that fact! But it's short. There's no problem following it. Seriously, so (s)he does two things wrong. 1. (S)he uses the shell to read a file without any error checking rather than open. 2. And then it's a bit loop-happy. Could probably do all that in one loop and centralize the filtering a bit. But really, what's so awful about it? If you want to use a clunky language or you don't like Perl's special operators, don't use it. To me, Perl's unique power is in the fact that it eliminates a lot of boundaries on what a language can do. Those quirky characters are a big part of that, as it mangles text like no other language I've worked with. And they are the things that make this code unique to Perl. The issues I mentioned can be part of code in any language. So, is your friend saying that Perl is bad because it lets you do more and "a lot of people" don't understand the unique Perl syntax? Therefore it's bad? Brad From jon at jrock.us Tue Oct 17 13:02:47 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:02:47 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Sharing my pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453536E7.3020808@jrock.us> People like to be told what to do. Therefore, TMTOWTDI doesn't really go over well for them. This certainly explains the success of PHP and Rails, anyway. > So, is your friend saying that Perl is bad because it lets you do more > and "a lot of people" don't understand the unique Perl syntax? > Therefore it's bad? -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 08:06:45 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Let's go see the Camel! In-Reply-To: <2715accf0610110108n562ed417x6c2d3ed7ee88b99a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0609191453y5a5639bfl6d8ecd176eec20a6@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380609191459h385321b8n5253a3105231e0d1@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70609192210m5941626dx5c65b07f37169f82@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0610110108n562ed417x6c2d3ed7ee88b99a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49d805d70610210806ub7278f5qae7d9b18528f693b@mail.gmail.com> > If the Camel thing doesn't go down on the 21st, you can spend your > free time cheering on Josh while he runs 26.2 miles, all at once. I haven't heard if we are doing the camel today. If so, could somebody give me a call on my mobile and let me know... I'm running around town with my little brother today... he'd like to see the camel if we could get him in ;) From brian.d.foy at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 14:12:01 2006 From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:12:01 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Let's go see the Camel! In-Reply-To: <49d805d70610210806ub7278f5qae7d9b18528f693b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0609191453y5a5639bfl6d8ecd176eec20a6@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380609191459h385321b8n5253a3105231e0d1@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70609192210m5941626dx5c65b07f37169f82@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0609192214r14a84548xbd216fd277352020@mail.gmail.com> <43e95380610050627n35e5d984m8cc1ef504871cb87@mail.gmail.com> <2715accf0610110108n562ed417x6c2d3ed7ee88b99a@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610210806ub7278f5qae7d9b18528f693b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2715accf0610211412l4ab2fb3fu3a27a9e3c761be1d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/21/06, Joshua McAdams wrote: > > If the Camel thing doesn't go down on the 21st, you can spend your > > free time cheering on Josh while he runs 26.2 miles, all at once. > > I haven't heard if we are doing the camel today. No, it's not today. Still playing phone tag with the right people. I'll certainly announce it here. Good luck on that run thing tomorrow. I'll be staying away from that madness. -- brian d foy http://www.pair.com/~comdog/ From brian.d.foy at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 11:42:37 2006 From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:42:37 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results Message-ID: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> He didn't win. Hope nobody lost money on that. :) You can see his splits and final times though: http://chicago.activeresult.com/lasalle/?event=&posted_p=t&refresh=3600&bib_list=&bib=&last_name=mcadams&first_names=&x=32&y=6#RESULTS -- brian d foy http://www.pair.com/~comdog/ From shild at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 22 12:07:49 2006 From: shild at sbcglobal.net (Scott T. Hildreth) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:07:49 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1161544069.84268.3.camel@fbsd1.dyndns.org> On Sun, 2006-10-22 at 13:42 -0500, brian d foy wrote: > He didn't win. Hope nobody lost money on that. :) > > You can see his splits and final times though: > > http://chicago.activeresult.com/lasalle/?event=&posted_p=t&refresh=3600&bib_list=&bib=&last_name=mcadams&first_names=&x=32&y=6#RESULTS > Hey, he finished! 3hrs 19mins, impressive....who am I kidding, the fact that he ran 26 miles is most impressive. I can't believe the top 5 ran in just over 2 hours. -- Scott T. Hildreth From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 12:37:47 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:37:47 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <1161544069.84268.3.camel@fbsd1.dyndns.org> References: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> <1161544069.84268.3.camel@fbsd1.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3096c19d0610221237g4211b16epa0157793aa50dd9e@mail.gmail.com> 3 hours 19 minutes! Jeeeeeez! That is fast! Like, C fast. Great work Josh! Chris From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 14:35:08 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:35:08 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0610221237g4211b16epa0157793aa50dd9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> <1161544069.84268.3.camel@fbsd1.dyndns.org> <3096c19d0610221237g4211b16epa0157793aa50dd9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49d805d70610221435g53c1aee7w8e065790f1d72f7@mail.gmail.com> > 3 hours 19 minutes! Jeeeeeez! That is fast! Like, C fast. Great work Josh! Expect me to be Ruby slow the next couple of days :) Ouch, my legs hurt. From manchicken at notsosoft.net Sun Oct 22 17:39:28 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:39:28 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <49d805d70610221435g53c1aee7w8e065790f1d72f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0610221237g4211b16epa0157793aa50dd9e@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610221435g53c1aee7w8e065790f1d72f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610221939.32740.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Very nice. Why stop at Ruby slow. You could probably get away with Java slow, or ColdFusion slow ;) On Sunday 22 October 2006 16:35, Joshua McAdams wrote: > > 3 hours 19 minutes! Jeeeeeez! That is fast! Like, C fast. Great work > > Josh! > > Expect me to be Ruby slow the next couple of days :) Ouch, my legs hurt. > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061022/1ec9f006/attachment.bin From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 06:54:13 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:54:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <200610221939.32740.manchicken@notsosoft.net> References: <2715accf0610221142x32ca2537wc2b11b69972448e0@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0610221237g4211b16epa0157793aa50dd9e@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610221435g53c1aee7w8e065790f1d72f7@mail.gmail.com> <200610221939.32740.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <3096c19d0610230654s53c36de4h40c54c26b7a2d6e2@mail.gmail.com> On 10/22/06, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > Very nice. Why stop at Ruby slow. You could probably get away with Java > slow, or ColdFusion slow ;) How about Pugs slow, as in "it's slow, but we all know why, and no one minds because Pugs is awesome." Chris From bdoty at efs-us.com Mon Oct 23 08:53:13 2006 From: bdoty at efs-us.com (Brad Doty) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:53:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results Message-ID: Josh, Congratulations. I understand any finish is a good finish and your times look very good! Didn't 3 hours win the marathon about 50 years ago? I'm sure I couldn't run one 7:36 mile, let alone 26 of them in a row. I hope you're ok with the fact that 350 women beat you. Brad From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 18:15:25 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:15:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49d805d70610231815w2ed1f145paf8d4405518ff8c7@mail.gmail.com> > I hope you're ok with the fact that 350 women beat you. Indeed, it's a strange type of event when 2719th place is considered a good finish :) From shild at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 23 18:26:10 2006 From: shild at sbcglobal.net (Scott T. Hildreth) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:26:10 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Josh's Marathon results In-Reply-To: <49d805d70610231815w2ed1f145paf8d4405518ff8c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <49d805d70610231815w2ed1f145paf8d4405518ff8c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1161653170.25424.7.camel@fbsd1.dyndns.org> On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 20:15 -0500, Joshua McAdams wrote: > > I hope you're ok with the fact that 350 women beat you. > > Indeed, it's a strange type of event when 2719th place is considered a > good finish :) I consider finishing .... "A good finish." > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- Scott T. Hildreth From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 17:19:45 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:19:45 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] T1 Providers Message-ID: <49d805d70610241719u47114bfetadf8a265b2a31d79@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have a T1 provider that they could recommend or any that I should be warned about? My building is considering changing providers because we are paying way too much now, but some of the deals seem too good for me to believe that there is a decent service provider behind them. Thanks, Josh From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 18:32:07 2006 From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:32:07 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Chicago] T1 Providers In-Reply-To: References: <49d805d70610241719u47114bfetadf8a265b2a31d79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49d805d70610241832p5f7cef32qa690dfc50e0847da@mail.gmail.com> > Have you checked out onShore (http://www.onShore.com/)? I know that > they light residential buildings, and although I can't speak to that > particular service, we've got a server hosted in their colo and have > been pretty happy with their uptime and net connectivity. Their > monthly T1 charges start at $399 and they're good guys. They are who we are with now... let me just say that we pay well over the $399 and probably need to just re-eval the contract. Good to see that they came up as decent though. From me at heyjay.com Tue Oct 24 20:21:11 2006 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:21:11 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Chicago] T1 Providers In-Reply-To: <49d805d70610241832p5f7cef32qa690dfc50e0847da@mail.gmail.com> References: <49d805d70610241719u47114bfetadf8a265b2a31d79@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610241832p5f7cef32qa690dfc50e0847da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have TDSMetrocom, $350ish for T1 768/768, plus 5 phone lines. They don't serve in Chicago proper, but in the northern suburbs Jay From e.ellington at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 10:48:37 2006 From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:48:37 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Chicago] T1 Providers In-Reply-To: References: <49d805d70610241719u47114bfetadf8a265b2a31d79@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610241832p5f7cef32qa690dfc50e0847da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If you are in the city of Chicago one way or another you will have to go with SBC now ATT. They suck, but as far I I understand it everyone else is just reselling you their lines anyway. They also have a good price, where I work we pay $354 a month for our lines. SBC/ATT's service is the worst. I have never seen so many techs show up to do a job and then just leave without doing anything or saying anything. I have heard great things about Speakeasy. Their support is nice because they will never pass you off to the SBC/ATT departments, you just deal with Speakeasy, and never have to hunt down people. They are more expensive but I have heard people sing their praises. If I am wrong about everyone just reselling SBC/ATT lines in the city I would love to hear about it! I want to escape from their grasp so badly. On 10/24/06, Jay Strauss wrote: > I have TDSMetrocom, $350ish for T1 768/768, plus 5 phone lines. They > don't serve in Chicago proper, but in the northern suburbs > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- Eric Ellington e.ellington at gmail.com From jon at jrock.us Wed Oct 25 11:30:02 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:30:02 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Chicago] T1 Providers In-Reply-To: References: <49d805d70610241719u47114bfetadf8a265b2a31d79@mail.gmail.com> <49d805d70610241832p5f7cef32qa690dfc50e0847da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453FAD2A.5050509@jrock.us> > I have heard great things about Speakeasy. Their support is nice > because they will never pass you off to the SBC/ATT departments, you > just deal with Speakeasy, and never have to hunt down people. They are > more expensive but I have heard people sing their praises. Regarding Speakeasy... I don't know what their commercial offerings are like (T1 is listed), but their consumer offerings are amazing. They have exceedingly competent 24-hour tech support, and I have never had any downtime in the last two years (in fact, it worked even during a power outage while my UPS was powering the modem and wireless router). The tech support is pretty speedy, too. I opened a problem ticket to get some IPs activated on a Friday night (at 1am or so), and they were working in 15 minutes :) That's pretty cool. -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From JJacobus at PonyX.com Wed Oct 25 12:25:41 2006 From: JJacobus at PonyX.com (Jim Jacobus) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] [Chicago] T1 Providers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20061025142430.03115a28@PonyX.com> Residential or commercial? >Does anyone have a T1 provider that they could recommend or any that I >should be warned about? My building is considering changing providers >because we are paying way too much now, but some of the deals seem too >good for me to believe that there is a decent service provider behind >them. > >Thanks, >Josh From JJacobus at PonyX.com Thu Oct 26 11:13:20 2006 From: JJacobus at PonyX.com (Jim Jacobus) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:13:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Developers Kit Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> Does anyone use or have experience with the Activestate Perl Developers Kit? It seems like a very expensive piece of software for very little value. Personally, I use a good (free) editor like Notepad++ to get syntax highlighting. Testing locally is easy. Can't figure out what the PDK would be good for other than a novice. Am I missing something? From jt at plainblack.com Thu Oct 26 12:31:56 2006 From: jt at plainblack.com (JT Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:31:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Developers Kit In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> Message-ID: It has perl2exe which is nice if you're making little utilities you want to be able to distribute to others without perl. It also has a killer regex debugger, and the IDE has all the normal stuff you'd like to see like autocomplete, project management, etc. Having said all that though, I still prefer good ol vim, but I think that's just cuz I'm an old school hacker. On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:13:20 -0500 Jim Jacobus wrote: > > Does anyone use or have experience with the Activestate Perl > Developers Kit? It seems like a very expensive piece of software for > very little value. Personally, I use a good (free) editor like > Notepad++ to get syntax highlighting. Testing locally is easy. Can't > figure out what the PDK would be good for other than a novice. Am I > missing something? > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk JT ~ Plain Black ph: 703-286-2525 ext. 810 fax: 312-264-5382 http://www.plainblack.com I reject your reality, and substitute my own. ~ Adam Savage From jon at jrock.us Thu Oct 26 13:14:10 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:14:10 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Developers Kit In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> Message-ID: <45411712.6060805@jrock.us> JT Smith wrote: > It has perl2exe which is nice if you're making little utilities you want to be able to > distribute to others without perl. PAR is much nicer, though, and is Free. -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From manchicken at notsosoft.net Fri Oct 27 07:33:24 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:33:24 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Developers Kit In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> Message-ID: <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> I checked it out a while ago. I found it... unsatisfactory. Emacs with ECB (if you like that sort of thing) makes a better IDE than their silly little IDE thing. I'm a big fan of emacs, but gosh, I can't see paying that much for a nonsense solution that is truly unnecessary. In my experience, PDK is used by companies (*cough*ActiveState) and people who want to release proprietary perl applications in binary form only... which is illegal in many cases and unethical in all cases. On Thursday 26 October 2006 13:13, Jim Jacobus wrote: > Does anyone use or have experience with the Activestate Perl > Developers Kit? It seems like a very expensive piece of software for > very little value. Personally, I use a good (free) editor like > Notepad++ to get syntax highlighting. Testing locally is easy. Can't > figure out what the PDK would be good for other than a novice. Am I > missing something? > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061027/025bcaaa/attachment.bin From list at phaedrusdeinus.org Fri Oct 27 10:27:16 2006 From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (johnnnnnnn) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:27:16 +0000 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries (was: Perl Developers Kit) In-Reply-To: <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 09:33:24AM -0500, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > In my experience, PDK is used by companies (*cough*ActiveState) and > people who want to release proprietary perl applications in binary > form only... which is illegal in many cases and unethical in all > cases. I suppose the ethical question is unresolvable -- i disagree. But the legal question remains: in what way is releasing binary forms of Perl apps illegal? -johnnnnnnn From jon at jrock.us Fri Oct 27 10:43:33 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:43:33 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> Message-ID: <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> johnnnnnnn wrote: > But the legal question remains: in what way is releasing binary forms > of Perl apps illegal? It's not. This is why RMS doesn't like the Perl license; it explicitly allows for binary-only distribution: > 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code or > executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the following: > > a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and library files, > together with instructions (in the manual page or equivalent) on where > to get the Standard Version. > > b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable source of > the Package with your modifications. > > c) give non-standard executables non-standard names, and clearly > document the differences in manual pages (or equivalent), together > with instructions on where to get the Standard Version. > > d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder. As long as you call your app something other than "perl" or "ls", you're legally in the clear. If, as a Free Software author, you want people using your library to open source their application, license your module ONLY under the GPL. Then binary-only redistribution becomes illegal (as long as you have enough money to successfully sue the infringer, which you probably don't). Expect resistance from other people though, as it's considered "anti-social" to license your CPAN modules under something other than the Perl license. (I can see the value in this, which is why I dual-license my modules. But for everything else I stick with the GPL.) Hope this helps. Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From manchicken at notsosoft.net Fri Oct 27 11:03:18 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:03:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> Message-ID: <200610271303.22937.manchicken@notsosoft.net> That's not true for many modules. IIRC, any modules that are GPLed code or link to libs/modules/code that is GPLed would be illegal to use in this fashion. On Friday 27 October 2006 12:43, Jonathan Rockway wrote: > johnnnnnnn wrote: > > But the legal question remains: in what way is releasing binary forms > > of Perl apps illegal? > > It's not. This is why RMS doesn't like the Perl license; it explicitly > > allows for binary-only distribution: > > 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code or > > executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the following: > > > > a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and library > > files, together with instructions (in the manual page or equivalent) on > > where to get the Standard Version. > > > > b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable source of > > the Package with your modifications. > > > > c) give non-standard executables non-standard names, and clearly > > document the differences in manual pages (or equivalent), together > > with instructions on where to get the Standard Version. > > > > d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder. > > As long as you call your app something other than "perl" or "ls", you're > legally in the clear. > > If, as a Free Software author, you want people using your library to > open source their application, license your module ONLY under the GPL. > Then binary-only redistribution becomes illegal (as long as you have > enough money to successfully sue the infringer, which you probably don't). > > Expect resistance from other people though, as it's considered > "anti-social" to license your CPAN modules under something other than > the Perl license. (I can see the value in this, which is why I > dual-license my modules. But for everything else I stick with the GPL.) > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Jonathan Rockway -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061027/fd786509/attachment.bin From manchicken at notsosoft.net Fri Oct 27 11:04:52 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:04:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries (was: Perl Developers Kit) In-Reply-To: <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> Message-ID: <200610271304.53169.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Not all of it would be illegal. IIRC, only ones using linking directly (this includes via Perl modules, as they would be compiled in via perl2exe) to GPLed code. On Friday 27 October 2006 12:27, johnnnnnnn wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 09:33:24AM -0500, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > > In my experience, PDK is used by companies (*cough*ActiveState) and > > people who want to release proprietary perl applications in binary > > form only... which is illegal in many cases and unethical in all > > cases. > > I suppose the ethical question is unresolvable -- i disagree. > > But the legal question remains: in what way is releasing binary forms > of Perl apps illegal? > > -johnnnnnnn > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061027/0dd69b3a/attachment.bin From jon at jrock.us Fri Oct 27 11:08:07 2006 From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <200610271303.22937.manchicken@notsosoft.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> <200610271303.22937.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <45424B07.6030806@jrock.us> Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > That's not true for many modules. IIRC, any modules that are GPLed code or > link to libs/modules/code that is GPLed would be illegal to use in this > fashion. Right, but there aren't very many of those. Term::ReadLine::Gnu, perhaps, but you can just ship Term::ReadLine and ask your user to install Term::ReadLine::Gnu himself. Everything important is Perl/GPL or LGPL. -- package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do { $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //, ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup; From manchicken at notsosoft.net Fri Oct 27 13:22:23 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:22:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <45424B07.6030806@jrock.us> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610271303.22937.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <45424B07.6030806@jrock.us> Message-ID: <200610271522.27314.manchicken@notsosoft.net> I wouldn't say that necessarily. There are a considerable number of Perl libs that use XS, many of them use libs that are GPLed (e.g. GTK, GnuPG, Qt, MySQL). Then you have all of the non-Perlesque licensed modules (e.g. DB_File) that you'd have to worry about. Could you do it? Probably. It could be complicated though. On Friday 27 October 2006 13:08, Jonathan Rockway wrote: > Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > > That's not true for many modules. IIRC, any modules that are GPLed code > > or link to libs/modules/code that is GPLed would be illegal to use in > > this fashion. > > Right, but there aren't very many of those. Term::ReadLine::Gnu, > perhaps, but you can just ship Term::ReadLine and ask your user to > install Term::ReadLine::Gnu himself. Everything important is Perl/GPL > or LGPL. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061027/86b1529d/attachment.bin From list at phaedrusdeinus.org Fri Oct 27 13:24:11 2006 From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (johnnnnnnn) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:24:11 +0000 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610270933.33129.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <20061027172716.GA3475@performics.com> <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> Message-ID: <20061027202410.GD3475@performics.com> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 12:43:33PM -0500, Jonathan Rockway wrote: > It's not. This is why RMS doesn't like the Perl license; it > explicitly allows for binary-only distribution: Ok. That's what i thought. > If, as a Free Software author, you want people using your library to > open source their application, license your module ONLY under the > GPL. Then binary-only redistribution becomes illegal (as long as > you have enough money to successfully sue the infringer, which you > probably don't). I generally land on the BSD side of the license debate, so it's no big deal to me. Thanks. -johnnnnnnnn From manchicken at notsosoft.net Fri Oct 27 13:31:27 2006 From: manchicken at notsosoft.net (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:31:27 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <20061027202410.GD3475@performics.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <45424545.5050300@jrock.us> <20061027202410.GD3475@performics.com> Message-ID: <200610271531.27969.manchicken@notsosoft.net> On Friday 27 October 2006 15:24, johnnnnnnn wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 12:43:33PM -0500, Jonathan Rockway wrote: > > It's not. This is why RMS doesn't like the Perl license; it > > explicitly allows for binary-only distribution: > > Ok. That's what i thought. > > > If, as a Free Software author, you want people using your library to > > open source their application, license your module ONLY under the > > GPL. Then binary-only redistribution becomes illegal (as long as > > you have enough money to successfully sue the infringer, which you > > probably don't). Naw, FSF has folks who'll help you out if you notice GPL compliance issues. > > I generally land on the BSD side of the license debate, so it's no big > deal to me. > > Thanks. > > > -johnnnnnnnn > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20061027/ef460af2/attachment.bin From chicago.pm at galumph.com Fri Oct 27 16:07:12 2006 From: chicago.pm at galumph.com (Elliot Shank) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:07:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl binaries In-Reply-To: <200610271522.27314.manchicken@notsosoft.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20061026130930.0310a168@SurplusRecord.com> <200610271303.22937.manchicken@notsosoft.net> <45424B07.6030806@jrock.us> <200610271522.27314.manchicken@notsosoft.net> Message-ID: <45429120.7080001@galumph.com> Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > I wouldn't say that necessarily. There are a considerable number of Perl libs > that use XS, many of them use libs that are GPLed (e.g. GTK, GnuPG, Qt, > MySQL). Then you have all of the non-Perlesque licensed modules (e.g. > DB_File) that you'd have to worry about. GTK is LGPL. -- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania"