From andy at petdance.com Mon Aug 2 00:24:35 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:28:16 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago Message-ID: <3DFC05C1-E444-11D8-B245-000393CD7BD6@petdance.com> You know what I'd like us to think about? Not a full-blown YAPC, but some sort of mini-convention, more social than tech. Here's my wacky idea: * Some weekend in, say, mid-February, far enough away from June/July of YAPC. * Weekend = Friday noon to Sunday night. * Minimal tech: Maybe one or two talks a day. Lightning talks would be swell. * Family-oriented. People can bring the spouse(s) and kids. * Held here in Chicago, or more likely, a suburb like Schaumburg or Arlington Heights, so that people who want to deal with the city can, and those who don't, don't. * Emphasis is on what makes OSCON so great: The hallway sessions. * Costs would be low, only including the actual costs. * Announce it far enough in advance that people can plan. Mostly local folks, of course, but who knows who else might show up? "Local" might mean anything from Minneapolis to Detroit to Green Bay to Memphis. Thoughts? -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From frag at ripco.com Mon Aug 2 09:41:29 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:28:16 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago In-Reply-To: <3DFC05C1-E444-11D8-B245-000393CD7BD6@petdance.com> References: <3DFC05C1-E444-11D8-B245-000393CD7BD6@petdance.com> Message-ID: I like it, although I don't know about the February date. ("Y'S'C: come for the ice, stay for the snow".) Also, maybe only have the 'official' meeting and any talks on Saturday, and leave Sunday open - people can still gather at meeting HQ in BOFs, or they can go where they will doing the tourist thing. -- Mike F. On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > You know what I'd like us to think about? Not a full-blown YAPC, but > some sort of mini-convention, more social than tech. > > Here's my wacky idea: > > * Some weekend in, say, mid-February, far enough away from June/July of > YAPC. > > * Weekend = Friday noon to Sunday night. > > * Minimal tech: Maybe one or two talks a day. Lightning talks would be > swell. > > * Family-oriented. People can bring the spouse(s) and kids. > > * Held here in Chicago, or more likely, a suburb like Schaumburg or > Arlington Heights, so that people who want to deal with the city can, > and those who don't, don't. > > * Emphasis is on what makes OSCON so great: The hallway sessions. > > * Costs would be low, only including the actual costs. > > * Announce it far enough in advance that people can plan. Mostly local > folks, of course, but who knows who else might show up? "Local" might > mean anything from Minneapolis to Detroit to Green Bay to Memphis. > > Thoughts? > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From mbl at lelnet.com Mon Aug 2 23:31:51 2004 From: mbl at lelnet.com (Matthew Landry) Date: Mon Aug 2 23:31:58 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago In-Reply-To: <3DFC05C1-E444-11D8-B245-000393CD7BD6@petdance.com> References: <3DFC05C1-E444-11D8-B245-000393CD7BD6@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040803043151.GA23482@finitysend.lelnet.com> On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 12:24:35AM -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > * Held here in Chicago, or more likely, a suburb like Schaumburg or > Arlington Heights, so that people who want to deal with the city can, > and those who don't, don't. If doing it in the city is absolutely out, I'd prefer a suburb whose involvement didn't necessarily require renting a car. Other than that, sounds great. -- Matthew Landry mbl@lelnet.com O- LEL Network Services Anti-Stupid Talisman "You don't have to outrun the bear. Just outrun the slowest hiker." GPG Fingerprint: 842E B9FC BA37 3C4F BBFA 91A8 CA08 40FB 8561 71A7 From Dooley.Michael at con-way.com Tue Aug 3 07:31:06 2004 From: Dooley.Michael at con-way.com (Dooley, Michael) Date: Tue Aug 3 07:31:14 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago Message-ID: all suburbs require a car outside the city of chicago. -----Original Message----- From: chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org] Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:32 PM To: Chicago.pm chatter Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 12:24:35AM -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > * Held here in Chicago, or more likely, a suburb like Schaumburg or > Arlington Heights, so that people who want to deal with the city can, > and those who don't, don't. If doing it in the city is absolutely out, I'd prefer a suburb whose involvement didn't necessarily require renting a car. Other than that, sounds great. -- Matthew Landry mbl@lelnet.com O- LEL Network Services Anti-Stupid Talisman "You don't have to outrun the bear. Just outrun the slowest hiker." GPG Fingerprint: 842E B9FC BA37 3C4F BBFA 91A8 CA08 40FB 8561 71A7 _______________________________________________ Chicago-talk mailing list Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk From mbl at lelnet.com Tue Aug 3 07:47:29 2004 From: mbl at lelnet.com (Matthew Landry) Date: Tue Aug 3 07:47:33 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] YAPC::Simple::Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040803124729.GA8142@finitysend.lelnet.com> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 05:31:06AM -0700, Dooley, Michael wrote: > all suburbs require a car outside the city of chicago. Not all...Evanston, for example, has great transit access. -- Matthew Landry mbl@lelnet.com O- LEL Network Services Anti-Stupid Talisman "You don't have to outrun the bear. Just outrun the slowest hiker." GPG Fingerprint: 842E B9FC BA37 3C4F BBFA 91A8 CA08 40FB 8561 71A7 From mongers at bsod.net Tue Aug 3 09:44:01 2004 From: mongers at bsod.net (Pete Krawczyk) Date: Tue Aug 3 09:44:07 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting tonight, August 3rd at 7 PM Message-ID: Greetings! Tonight at 7 PM, our beloved chicago.pm shall meet in Vernon Hills at WDI. Our featured presenter will be Andy Lester giving a talk on security with Perl using -T! Topics of discussion will include using tainting checks within programs, secure use of DBI, and ways to secure your CGI and mod_perl scripts. Meetings page: http://chi.pm.org/meetings/ Directions: http://chi.pm.org/wdi-directions.html Beforehand, some of us will meet at El Famous Burrito around 6pm. It's just a half mile or so from WDI. For you Mapquesters, it's at 230 Hawthorn Village Comm, Vernon Hills, IL. September's meeting will be the last that we can have at WDI. We thank them for the use of their facilities this past year. If anyone has some space that they'd love to volunteer for future meetings, please let Andy know. -Pete K From ehs at pobox.com Tue Aug 3 15:21:05 2004 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Tue Aug 3 15:21:08 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Dave Thomas in Chicago Aug 17th Message-ID: <20040803202105.GC4867@chloe.inkdroid.org> Ok, Ok, it's from the local Java list, but the Pragmatic Programmers transcend our little niche's don't they? Dave Thomas of Pragmatic Programmer [1] fame is going to be in Chicago on August 17th to talk about "Decoupling Patterns: untangling the knot of code". I figured there would be people in chiacgo.pm who were interested. More info is available over at CJUG [2]. //Ed [1] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020161622X [2] http://www.cjug.org/futurepresentations.html //Ed From marsee at oreilly.com Tue Aug 3 19:39:59 2004 From: marsee at oreilly.com (Marsee Henon) Date: Tue Aug 3 19:39:53 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Dave Thomas in Chicago Aug 17th In-Reply-To: <20040803202105.GC4867@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <20040803202105.GC4867@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: Just a reminder...O'Reilly now distributes Pragmatic Programmer books. Just let me know if you want to check them out..... --marsee On Aug 3, 2004, at 1:21 PM, Ed Summers wrote: > Ok, Ok, it's from the local Java list, but the Pragmatic Programmers > transcend our little niche's don't they? > > Dave Thomas of Pragmatic Programmer [1] fame is going to be in Chicago > on > August 17th to talk about "Decoupling Patterns: untangling the knot of > code". I figured there would be people in chiacgo.pm who were > interested. More info is available over at CJUG [2]. > > //Ed > > [1] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020161622X > [2] http://www.cjug.org/futurepresentations.html > > //Ed > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marsee Henon O'Reilly 1005 Gravenstein Highway North Sebastopol, CA 95472 707-827-7103 800-998-9938 Fax 707-829-0104 marsee@oreilly.com http://ug.oreilly.com/ http://www.oreilly.com/ http://conferences.oreilly.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jason at multiply.org Tue Aug 3 22:08:57 2004 From: jason at multiply.org (jason scott gessner) Date: Tue Aug 3 22:08:42 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Programmer needed in Milwaukee Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091588937.9915.4.camel@enterprise.multiply.org> Hi All. I have a friend whose company is looking for someone to develop an inventory management system for their company. They need to keep track of experiments and chemicals used for the experiments, and run some reports. They have things pretty well scoped out, but need someone to turn their ideas into an estimate and a plan. I am trying to line up some help for my buddy, so if anyone is interested (they are in the suburban milwaukee area) please contact me off the list. I will probably post this up on jobs.perl.org as well, but wanted to hit the list up first. Thanks! -jason gessner jason@multiply.org From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 4 10:21:09 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 4 10:21:12 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] canonical is_tainted()? Message-ID: Andy -- what was the is_tainted from your talk last night? The is_tainted from the most recent perlsec isn't the same: sub is_tainted { return ! eval { eval("#" . substr(join("", @_), 0, 0)); 1 }; } but I recall that the one on your slide seemed to make more sense. -- Mike F. From thomasoniii at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 10:26:58 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Wed Aug 4 10:27:01 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] canonical is_tainted()? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5cfdfaf7040804082648e05a6b@mail.gmail.com> Looks like somebody decided to whip up a one liner. It's the same code. The one Andy had was (roughly): sub is_tainted { my $value = shift; my $substr = substr($value, 0, 0); #empty, possibly tainted string local $@; #don't clobber $@ eval {eval "# $substr"}; return 1 if $@; } So I guess it was too deemed too wordy and got crunched down. -Jim.... On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:21:09 -0500 (CDT), Mike Fragassi wrote: > > Andy -- what was the is_tainted from your talk last night? > The is_tainted from the most recent perlsec isn't the same: > > sub is_tainted { > return ! eval { eval("#" . substr(join("", @_), 0, 0)); 1 }; > } > > but I recall that the one on your slide seemed to make more sense. > > -- Mike F. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Aug 4 10:32:03 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 4 10:32:06 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] canonical is_tainted()? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86vffygbrg.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Fragassi writes: Mike> Andy -- what was the is_tainted from your talk last night? Mike> The is_tainted from the most recent perlsec isn't the same: Mike> sub is_tainted { Mike> return ! eval { eval("#" . substr(join("", @_), 0, 0)); 1 }; Mike> } Mike> but I recall that the one on your slide seemed to make more sense. >From Taint.pm, in the CPAN (by Stonehenge Employee of the Year Tom Phoenix): sub any_tainted { not eval { join("", @_), kill 0; 1 }; } -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 4 11:06:07 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 4 11:06:10 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] canonical is_tainted()? In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf7040804082648e05a6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5cfdfaf7040804082648e05a6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Jim Thomason wrote: > Looks like somebody decided to whip up a one liner. It's the same code. > > The one Andy had was (roughly): > > sub is_tainted { > my $value = shift; > my $substr = substr($value, 0, 0); #empty, possibly tainted string > local $@; #don't clobber $@ > eval {eval "# $substr"}; > return 1 if $@; > } > > So I guess it was too deemed too wordy and got crunched down. Almost the same; the one above only operates on one incoming scalar, and localizes $@. > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:21:09 -0500 (CDT), Mike Fragassi wrote: > > > > sub is_tainted { > > return ! eval { eval("#" . substr(join("", @_), 0, 0)); 1 }; > > } From andy at petdance.com Thu Aug 5 15:12:08 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu Aug 5 15:12:11 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] FireWire drives Message-ID: <20040805201208.GA26574@petdance.com> I'm going to be doing some work on Tiger, the next Mac OS X, and I need an external drive to put it on, since I don't want the betas on my production laptop. I doubt I'll have much need for it after I do my Tiger project, so should I just get a cheapie old one? Anyone got a cheap old one they want to get rid of? xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 5 23:56:29 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 5 23:56:40 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] FireWire drives In-Reply-To: <20040805201208.GA26574@petdance.com> References: <20040805201208.GA26574@petdance.com> Message-ID: <7351B6D4FDEAFD492F2A1478@duke.wrkhors.com> -- Andy Lester > > I'm going to be doing some work on Tiger, the next Mac OS X, and I need > an external drive to put it on, since I don't want the betas on my > production laptop. > > I doubt I'll have much need for it after I do my Tiger project, so > should I just get a cheapie old one? Anyone got a cheap old one they > want to get rid of? Check pricewatch -- or stop by DuPage in two weeks. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From andy at petdance.com Fri Aug 6 00:02:40 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Fri Aug 6 00:02:40 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] FireWire drives In-Reply-To: <7351B6D4FDEAFD492F2A1478@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <20040805201208.GA26574@petdance.com> <7351B6D4FDEAFD492F2A1478@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <20040806050240.GA28836@petdance.com> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 12:56:29AM -0400, Steven Lembark (lembark@wrkhors.com) wrote: > Check pricewatch -- or stop by DuPage in two weeks. What do you mean "stop by DuPage in two weeks". xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From lembark at wrkhors.com Fri Aug 6 07:27:27 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Fri Aug 6 07:27:34 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] FireWire drives In-Reply-To: <20040806050240.GA28836@petdance.com> References: <20040805201208.GA26574@petdance.com> <7351B6D4FDEAFD492F2A1478@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040806050240.GA28836@petdance.com> Message-ID: > What do you mean "stop by DuPage in two weeks". COD's computer fair. You can pick up a cheap there from local distributors or craphounds. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From armin.zendron at wuerth.it Tue Aug 10 10:45:35 2004 From: armin.zendron at wuerth.it (Armin Zendron) Date: Tue Aug 10 10:45:39 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] DBI for Red Brick Message-ID: <4118ED9F.5070604@wuerth.it> Has anyone attempted to use DBI with Red Brick and had success? Specifically DBD::Informix? I am going to be attempting this on a unix machine (hpux). Thanks Armin Zendron armin.zendron@wuerth.it From lembark at wrkhors.com Tue Aug 10 12:46:23 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Tue Aug 10 12:46:40 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] DBI for Red Brick In-Reply-To: <4118ED9F.5070604@wuerth.it> References: <4118ED9F.5070604@wuerth.it> Message-ID: -- Armin Zendron > Has anyone attempted to use DBI with Red Brick and had success? > Specifically DBD::Informix? > I am going to be attempting this on a unix machine (hpux). RB used to speak ODBC (not the most effecient but it works). You might want to check: The author seemed to have a working model (and Scott still exists on the net so you should be able to find him). Might also be helpful. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From shild at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 10 18:17:35 2004 From: shild at sbcglobal.net (Scott T. Hildreth) Date: Tue Aug 10 18:08:46 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] DBI for Red Brick In-Reply-To: References: <4118ED9F.5070604@wuerth.it> Message-ID: <1092179855.85814.102.camel@localhost> He exists on the list as well. =8^) Its been a long time since I used Redbrick, let me review what I had written and I'll email you. If I recall, I had to modify some files, which I think I saved somewhere. Have you tried DBD::Informix? Is this an old Red Brick install, didn't Informix buy them out a couple of years back? On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 12:46, Steven Lembark wrote: > -- Armin Zendron > > > Has anyone attempted to use DBI with Red Brick and had success? > > Specifically DBD::Informix? > > I am going to be attempting this on a unix machine (hpux). > > RB used to speak ODBC (not the most effecient but it works). > > You might want to check: > > > > The author seemed to have a working model (and Scott still > exists on the net so you should be able to find him). > > > > Might also be helpful. > > From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 10:27:10 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 10:27:13 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? Message-ID: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> The next Chicago Perl Mongers meeting will be something new. We're calling it "Monster Perl Garage" or "This Old Module." We're going to take a module and Phalanx it, live and as a group. We'll look at its test coverage, documentation, see where it can get improved, so that we can make patches back to the author. But what module should we do it on? There were ideas thrown around, but nothing decided. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 10:36:18 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 10:36:21 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> Message-ID: I'd like to suggest Date-Calc. I've got started on this so we aren't started tabla-rosa... Also, so I can't be singled out by Andy at OSCON next year. :-) --Shawn On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:27:10 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > The next Chicago Perl Mongers meeting will be something new. We're > calling it "Monster Perl Garage" or "This Old Module." We're going to > take a module and Phalanx it, live and as a group. We'll look at its > test coverage, documentation, see where it can get improved, so that we > can make patches back to the author. > > But what module should we do it on? There were ideas thrown around, but > nothing decided. > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 10:59:11 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 10:59:12 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:36:18AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > I'd like to suggest Date-Calc. I've got started on this so we aren't > started tabla-rosa... Also, so I can't be singled out by Andy at > OSCON next year. :-) That's "tabula rasa". And hey, I always raise my hand first for having not doing his proper Phalanxing. Liz also suggested Date-Calc, as well as someone else at the meeting. So that sounds like three votes for. How's its coverage? Pretty weak? xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From jamundsen at jamundsen.dyndns.org Wed Aug 11 11:07:55 2004 From: jamundsen at jamundsen.dyndns.org (jamundsen@jamundsen.dyndns.org) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:07:56 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place Message-ID: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> Unfortunately I had to leave early from the last meeting. Was a new meeting location decided on or is it still up in the air. If we don't have some place yet, I'll probably do some checking around. Jon Amundsen From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 11:14:27 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:14:29 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> Message-ID: <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:07:55AM -0500, jamundsen@jamundsen.dyndns.org (jamundsen@jamundsen.dyndns.org) wrote: > Unfortunately I had to leave early from the last meeting. Was a new > meeting location decided on or is it still up in the air. If we don't > have some place yet, I'll probably do some checking around. No, we don't have anything yet. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 11:14:48 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:15:03 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> Message-ID: http://pjcj.sytes.net/cpancover/Date-Calc-5.3/coverage.html Not great, but not bad. Nearly no pod, which I find odd.... On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:59:11 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:36:18AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > > I'd like to suggest Date-Calc. I've got started on this so we aren't > > started tabla-rosa... Also, so I can't be singled out by Andy at > > OSCON next year. :-) > > That's "tabula rasa". > > And hey, I always raise my hand first for having not doing his proper > Phalanxing. Liz also suggested Date-Calc, as well as someone else at > the meeting. So that sounds like three votes for. > > How's its coverage? Pretty weak? > > > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 11:38:24 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:38:26 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:14:48AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > http://pjcj.sytes.net/cpancover/Date-Calc-5.3/coverage.html > > Not great, but not bad. Nearly no pod, which I find odd.... Do you understand the module? On how the API should work? I'm no whiz on date-related stuff, and some of it looks pretty hairy. Also, do we have buy-in from the author? It'd be a nice on to attack: It's at #31 on my preliminary reruns of the Phalanx 100. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 11:50:54 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:50:56 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: I'm fairly familar w/ the module. Some of it is hairy, but not impossible. The author okayed me doing this already... --Shawn On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:38:24 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:14:48AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > > http://pjcj.sytes.net/cpancover/Date-Calc-5.3/coverage.html > > > > Not great, but not bad. Nearly no pod, which I find odd.... > > Do you understand the module? On how the API should work? I'm no whiz on > date-related stuff, and some of it looks pretty hairy. Also, do we have > buy-in from the author? > > It'd be a nice on to attack: It's at #31 on my preliminary reruns of the > Phalanx 100. > > > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 11:55:32 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 11:55:34 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040811165532.GD23169@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:50:54AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > I'm fairly familar w/ the module. Some of it is hairy, but not impossible. > > The author okayed me doing this already... Recently? More recently than a year ago? Just want to make sure he's still around. I'll write up an announcement so that folks know about it, and explain that we'll be attacking Date::Calc. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:01:03 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 12:01:06 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811165532.GD23169@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> <20040811165532.GD23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: No, not recently. We could re-ask.. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:55:32 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:50:54AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > > I'm fairly familar w/ the module. Some of it is hairy, but not impossible. > > > > The author okayed me doing this already... > > Recently? More recently than a year ago? Just want to make sure he's > still around. > > I'll write up an announcement so that folks know about it, and explain > that we'll be attacking Date::Calc. > > > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 11 12:38:24 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 11 12:38:28 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:14:48AM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > > http://pjcj.sytes.net/cpancover/Date-Calc-5.3/coverage.html > > > > Not great, but not bad. Nearly no pod, which I find odd.... There's almost no inline POD because the module is almost entirely written in C. The pod is distributed as a separate file, Date/Calc.pod. I'm surprised Devel::Cover doesn't identify these conditions. > Do you understand the module? On how the API should work? I'm no whiz on > date-related stuff, and some of it looks pretty hairy. Also, do we have > buy-in from the author? I use Date::Calc all the time, so I'm comfortable with it. But if we find errors due to testing, proposing patches will be a bit of a hassle. Also, if part of the idea is getting under the hood of a major Perl module to see some Perl wizardary, then that isn't really going to happen unless we want to focus on DynaLoader, XS and all that. How about Date::Manip? It's Perl-only, and while it's got about 71% coverage and a number of test scripts already, it's not complete yet. Another one that would be feasible is HTML::Tree. (Author: SBURKE, %42 coverage). Or Scalar::List::Utils. (GBARR, %36 coverage.) Or we can go for broke: CGI.pm! (70% coverage.) -- Mike F. From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 13:36:37 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:36:39 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040811183637.GF23169@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 12:38:24PM -0500, Mike Fragassi (frag@ripco.com) wrote: > Another one that would be feasible is HTML::Tree. (Author: SBURKE, %42 > coverage). Or Scalar::List::Utils. (GBARR, %36 coverage.) Or we can go > for broke: CGI.pm! (70% coverage.) HTML::Tree or Scalar::List::Utils would seem to me to be even better choices. I'm sure Graham would be on board, and I can't imagine Sean wouldn't as well. Shawn: Do you mind if we poke at one of these instead? xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 13:42:24 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:42:32 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811183637.GF23169@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <20040811155911.GA23146@petdance.com> <20040811163824.GC23169@petdance.com> <20040811183637.GF23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: I won't be too hurt I guess. Let's go after Scalar::List::Utils... On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:36:37 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 12:38:24PM -0500, Mike Fragassi (frag@ripco.com) wrote: > > Another one that would be feasible is HTML::Tree. (Author: SBURKE, %42 > > coverage). Or Scalar::List::Utils. (GBARR, %36 coverage.) Or we can go > > for broke: CGI.pm! (70% coverage.) > > HTML::Tree or Scalar::List::Utils would seem to me to be even better > choices. I'm sure Graham would be on board, and I can't imagine Sean > wouldn't as well. > > Shawn: Do you mind if we poke at one of these instead? > > > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 11 13:50:55 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:51:12 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] DBI for Red Brick In-Reply-To: <1092179855.85814.102.camel@localhost> References: <4118ED9F.5070604@wuerth.it> <1092179855.85814.102.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <294091953FDFAFDC75B492D0@duke.wrkhors.com> > Its been a long time since I used Redbrick, let me review > what I had written and I'll email you. If I recall, I had > to modify some files, which I think I saved somewhere. Have > you tried DBD::Informix? Is this an old Red Brick install, > didn't Informix buy them out a couple of years back? It's a long time since ANYbody's used RB... Thing is that I don't remember them updating their API to accomoate Informix' after the buyout; last I used it they were stuck on ODBC. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 11 13:53:55 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:54:12 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> Message-ID: <405D9398D05A32E5A02D2F9F@duke.wrkhors.com> > But what module should we do it on? There were ideas thrown around, but > nothing decided. Quantum::Superpositions would be an excellent exercse in OO review. Any fixes gladly accepted... FindBin::libs has (I think?) rasonable documentation and at least a few people use it. If there are any... features that need revising I could look at them. enjoi -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 11 13:55:46 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:56:03 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> Message-ID: <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> > No, we don't have anything yet. Probably the wrong end of town, but I could get space at IIT (and probably a projector). It's near the MTA at least and has free parking. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 13:57:52 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 13:57:59 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <405D9398D05A32E5A02D2F9F@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <405D9398D05A32E5A02D2F9F@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: However, neither of those are on the top 100. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:53:55 -0400, Steven Lembark wrote: > > > But what module should we do it on? There were ideas thrown around, but > > nothing decided. > > Quantum::Superpositions would be an excellent exercse in > OO review. Any fixes gladly accepted... > > FindBin::libs has (I think?) rasonable documentation and > at least a few people use it. If there are any... features > that need revising I could look at them. > > enjoi > > -- > Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 > Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 > lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From thomasoniii at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:03:29 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Wed Aug 11 14:03:32 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] What module will we attack? In-Reply-To: <405D9398D05A32E5A02D2F9F@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <20040811152710.GA22904@petdance.com> <405D9398D05A32E5A02D2F9F@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf704081112034bbd196c@mail.gmail.com> Mail::Bulkmail has extensive documentation, but an utter complete dire lack of any tests whatsoever (well, it has one...it doesn't test much). It's even reasonably popular. :D I'm also quite convined the author would be receptive. What's the goal of an initial module attack? To actually run forth and phalanx it? Or to learn how to run forth and phalanx it? If it's the former, then sky's the limit. Let's pick something fairly widely used. But if it's the latter, then I think it'd be better for us to pick something reasonably useful (basically anything outside of the Acme:: tree would probably suffice) but fairly small and easy to go after. That way, those that aren't used to testing or adding tests or whatnot or that don't even have a clue how to begin on the subject won't be overwhelmed by us initially trying to do something massive. I do think we'd be better served going after something small first. I'd even further recommend that we do something that one of the Chicago.pm members who plans to attend has written. Yes, yes, this is all very self-serving in that I want to finally get off my ass and tackle Mail::Bulkmail's lack of testing, but I'd still even think that's too big. A local member would probably be useful to have around since they would (presumably) know the code better than anybody which would make explanations easier, testing easier, things to worry about easier, etc. If we start smaller and show how approachable it is to do it, we'd be more likely to get more people involved in an overall big push for some of the larger modules. Basically, I'm just worried about biting off more than we can chew in the first attempt. -Jim.... From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:10:23 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 14:10:25 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: When you say IIT, are you talking the Stuart School of Business downtown or Main campus at 33 and State or any of ther other campuses IIT has? On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:55:46 -0400, Steven Lembark wrote: > > > No, we don't have anything yet. > > Probably the wrong end of town, but I could get space at IIT > (and probably a projector). It's near the MTA at least and has > free parking. > > -- > Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 > Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 > lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From easyasy2k at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 15:06:34 2004 From: easyasy2k at gmail.com (Leland Johnson) Date: Wed Aug 11 15:06:36 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <2df270ef04081113066249d7c6@mail.gmail.com> I would go for that. After all, I found Chicago.pm right after it moved into the current facility, which is really close to my house. I'm going to IIT in about ten days, so that would be great. - Leland Johnson http://protoplasmic.org From crome at devnetinc.com Wed Aug 11 15:48:01 2004 From: crome at devnetinc.com (Jason A. Crome) Date: Wed Aug 11 15:46:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <20040811195831.B37AC239456@beowulf.devnetinc.com> FWIW, I am investigating the possibility of having meetings at Harper College in Palatine. Still awaiting a response from my contact there however. Will keep the list posted on this. Hopefully this will become another option for us! -------------------------------------------------- Jason A. Crome Senior Software Engineer, DEVNET, Inc. E-Mail: crome@devnetinc.com http://www.devnetinc.com > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org] On Behalf Of Steven Lembark > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:56 PM > To: Chicago.pm chatter > Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place > > > > No, we don't have anything yet. > > Probably the wrong end of town, but I could get space at IIT > (and probably a projector). It's near the MTA at least and > has free parking. > > > > -- > Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 > Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 > lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 16:41:52 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 16:41:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] This Old Module Message-ID: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> I have a "yes, please" from both Graham and Sean. So should we do HTML::Tree or Scalar::List::Utils? They're both ~50 on the list. If we do SLU, we need to get it from Graham's SVN repository. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 11 16:42:40 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 11 16:42:58 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> -- Shawn Carroll > When you say IIT, are you talking the Stuart School of Business > downtown or Main campus at 33 and State or any of ther other campuses > IIT has? The main campus, on State. If they have space downtown we could probably weasel some space there. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 16:55:27 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 16:55:29 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 05:42:40PM -0400, Steven Lembark (lembark@wrkhors.com) wrote: > >When you say IIT, are you talking the Stuart School of Business > >downtown or Main campus at 33 and State or any of ther other campuses > >IIT has? > > The main campus, on State. If they have space downtown we could > probably weasel some space there. If you want to do stuff down at IIT, that's swell. I'm going to continue looking for stuff up here in the NW 'burbs. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 17:41:55 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 17:42:14 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> Message-ID: The burbs vs downtown battle re-ignites. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:55:27 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 05:42:40PM -0400, Steven Lembark (lembark@wrkhors.com) wrote: > > >When you say IIT, are you talking the Stuart School of Business > > >downtown or Main campus at 33 and State or any of ther other campuses > > >IIT has? > > > > The main campus, on State. If they have space downtown we could > > probably weasel some space there. > > If you want to do stuff down at IIT, that's swell. I'm going to > continue looking for stuff up here in the NW 'burbs. > > > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 11 17:48:54 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 11 17:48:56 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040811224854.GA23949@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 05:41:55PM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > The burbs vs downtown battle re-ignites. Not a battle. I'm just saying that if there's a city group that wants to meet, that's fine. However, I'll still work on a NW-suburban group for those of us out here, too. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From gdf at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 11 17:57:36 2004 From: gdf at speakeasy.net (Greg Fast) Date: Wed Aug 11 17:57:39 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] This Old Module In-Reply-To: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> References: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> Message-ID: <200408112257.i7BMvbMM005900@www.pm.org> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:41:52 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > I have a "yes, please" from both Graham and Sean. So should we do > HTML::Tree or Scalar::List::Utils? They're both ~50 on the list. Scalar-List-Utils is much more straightforward from the standpoint of being organized as a small set of easily pass-failable functions with well-defined expectations. It might be more desireable if people are getting up to speed on basic testing principles, etc. HTML::Tree is much more complex, and might lend itself to some educational insights into testing large hairy modules. For that, and for the fact that I use it but not SLU, I'd put my vote on it. However, we *might* be able to roll up a complete suite for SLU within a meeting's time... perhaps we should start there and consider moving to H::Tree? -- Greg Fast http://cken.chi.groogroo.com/~gdf/ From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 11 18:02:47 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 11 18:02:49 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040811224854.GA23949@petdance.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040811224854.GA23949@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 05:41:55PM -0500, Shawn Carroll (shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com) wrote: > > The burbs vs downtown battle re-ignites. > > Not a battle. I'm just saying that if there's a city group that wants > to meet, that's fine. However, I'll still work on a NW-suburban group > for those of us out here, too. Would something along the lines of Evanston or Northbrook be feasible for NWers? -- Mike F. From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 11 18:14:50 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 11 18:14:53 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] This Old Module In-Reply-To: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> References: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > I have a "yes, please" from both Graham and Sean. So should we do > HTML::Tree or Scalar::List::Utils? They're both ~50 on the list. I don't really have a preference between them. S'L'U though also has a lot of XS, if that matters. -- Mike F. From jt at plainblack.com Wed Aug 11 17:40:31 2004 From: jt at plainblack.com (JT Smith) Date: Wed Aug 11 18:27:23 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040811224854.GA23949@petdance.com> Message-ID: >Not a battle. I'm just saying that if there's a city group that wants >to meet, that's fine. However, I'll still work on a NW-suburban group >for those of us out here, too. Agreed. I haven't been able to make the past few meetings, but starting next month I should be able to start coming regularly again. It's a lot easier to drag myself out to my car if I know I only have to drive .5 hour rather than 1.5 hours. JT ~ Plain Black Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave. From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 18:32:43 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 11 18:32:45 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same w/ me, I live in the south burbs and work downtown. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:40:31 -0500, JT Smith wrote: > >Not a battle. I'm just saying that if there's a city group that wants > >to meet, that's fine. However, I'll still work on a NW-suburban group > >for those of us out here, too. > > Agreed. I haven't been able to make the past few meetings, but starting next month I > should be able to start coming regularly again. It's a lot easier to drag myself out to > my car if I know I only have to drive .5 hour rather than 1.5 hours. > > JT ~ Plain Black > > Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 11 18:53:42 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 11 18:54:00 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> Message-ID: > If you want to do stuff down at IIT, that's swell. I'm going to > continue looking for stuff up here in the NW 'burbs. I live in New York, odds are I can't make it to any of these locations. Noone else on the list has described having connections in the city anywhere. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From ehs at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 19:39:50 2004 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Wed Aug 11 19:39:53 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Steven Lembark wrote: > I live in New York, odds are I can't make it to any of > these locations. Noone else on the list has described > having connections in the city anywhere. New York, is that like some obscure suburb of Chicago that's near IIT? //Ed From easyasy2k at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 20:59:58 2004 From: easyasy2k at gmail.com (Leland Johnson) Date: Wed Aug 11 21:00:04 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] This Old Module In-Reply-To: References: <20040811214152.GA23698@petdance.com> Message-ID: <2df270ef040811185966a3561b@mail.gmail.com> I would want to go with Scalar::List::Utils. It would be easier for people that aren't too familiar with perl/testing (like me). Also, getting a complete test suite out in one meeting would really be motivating to other groups... "We made a complete test suite for one whole module!" "Yeah, well we did two modules!" "Well, we did 10 modules!" "But those were all in the Amce tree!" "So?" That's the only problem I see arising... -- Leland Johnson http://protoplasmic.org From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 11:40:20 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 11:40:39 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: -- Ed Summers > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Steven Lembark wrote: >> I live in New York, odds are I can't make it to any of >> these locations. Noone else on the list has described >> having connections in the city anywhere. > > New York, is that like some obscure suburb of Chicago that's near IIT? New Yorkers tend to look at it the other way around: the entire universe is a suburb of NY [and should pay appropriate taxes :-]. I am still working with the people at IIT, however, and thus do have a connection for getting space there if anyone wants to meet at IIT's main campus -- or possibly in the loop. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From thomasoniii at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 11:45:05 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Thu Aug 12 11:45:13 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions Message-ID: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> I'm sure I get groans when I send out one of my requests for design debate, but I'll do it again. It helps me to type things out and think about them, at a bare minimum. I've been working around with some old code we have and it's just been driving me nuts. It's effectively a giant switch statement. "If state is this, do that."; "if state is this, do that", "If state is this, do that"; and then it all falls through down to the bottom for final output and display (usually). A lot CGIs/web based things tend to look like this. Most controllers in other MVC arenas don't, because the application is effectively constantly preserving state, it knows where it's supposed to be, and knows how to deal with it. But those big huge gigantic if/then/else ladders grate on me. I know they shouldn't, I know they're normal, but they're just aesthetically repulsive to me. So I started monkeying around with replacements and dusted off the state machine code I wrote a few months back. Opting not to tackle too gigantic a problem at first, I ripped apart one of the small cgis on my own website - the one governing editing movie reviews. So I have the original one: http://www.jimandkoka.com/movie/edit.linear.txt and the new one: http://www.jimandkoka.com/movie/edit.machine.txt Neither of which are particularly commented, but that's initentional at the moment. I'm curious to see how people feel just looking at the code and trying to figure out what's going on. I may have a few typos in the machine one, since I haven't tested it yet, so if something looks odd, it's probably just be screwing up. Presently, the linear version looks easier to me. It's simpler to write, it's easier to follow, it's easier to understand. But the machine version seems to capture the essence of the program much better and may end up looking more clear when scaled up to a larger script. It's tougher to follow it, since it's not top down and it bounces around a lot. Still, the fact that it seems closer to what the program does implies to me that it'll get much easier to build and maintain state machines like this once it's comfortable enough. New design patterns always have a bit of a learning curve, after all. Program sizes appear to be comparable. I'm also even thinking that at least some of the coding could be done graphically with an ERD-style tool. Define the states, define the transisition values, generate a bunch of perl code and then fill in the details. I haven't decided if I'd like that or not. Opinions welcome, as well as suggestions about other patterns that may have worked well for you guys in the past. -Jim.... From dha at panix.com Thu Aug 12 12:03:11 2004 From: dha at panix.com (David H. Adler) Date: Thu Aug 12 12:03:12 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 12:40:20PM -0400, Steven Lembark wrote: > > New Yorkers tend to look at it the other way around: > the entire universe is a suburb of NY [and should pay > appropriate taxes :-]. And, what, this is in some way incorrect? :-) dha -- David H. Adler - - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Hey, Siegfried! Pick an accent and stick with it! - Tom Servo, MST3K From andy at petdance.com Thu Aug 12 12:14:47 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu Aug 12 12:14:49 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Tests for operators as functions Message-ID: <20040812171447.GA26826@petdance.com> [Sent to p5p to get included in the Perl distro. I think it's a good example of the kind of testing that makes sense to do on modules and Perl itself. -- Andy] Here's a test file that makes sure that even with sub q{}, that q() is an operator, but &q() and main::q() are function calls. I suggest that it be called t/comp/operator-subs.t. A transcription of the IRC conversation that started this discussion is at the bottom of this file. So often we have these discussions where a topic is discussed and decided, it would be nice if they turned into tests that define the behavior. I've spent only about 90 mins working on this test file, so it's not like writing these tests is a big time suck. Next time we get into behavior discussions, let's get a deliverable of a .t file out of them. Thanks, xoxo, Andy #./perl -T use warnings; use strict; $|++; =pod Even if you have a C, calling C will be parsed as the C operator. Calling C<&q()> or C gets you the function. This test verifies this behavior for nine different operators. =cut use Test::More tests => 36; sub m { return "m-".shift } sub q { return "q-".shift } sub qq { return "qq-".shift } sub qr { return "qr-".shift } sub qw { return "qw-".shift } sub qx { return "qx-".shift } sub s { return "s-".shift } sub tr { return "tr-".shift } sub y { return "y-".shift } # m operator can_ok( 'main', "m" ); SILENCE_WARNING: { # Complains because $_ is undef no warnings; isnt( m('unqualified'), "m-unqualified", "m('unqualified') is oper" ); } is( main::m('main'), "m-main", "main::m() is func" ); is( &m('amper'), "m-amper", "&m() is func" ); # q operator can_ok( 'main', "q" ); isnt( q('unqualified'), "q-unqualified", "q('unqualified') is oper" ); is( main::q('main'), "q-main", "main::q() is func" ); is( &q('amper'), "q-amper", "&q() is func" ); # qq operator can_ok( 'main', "qq" ); isnt( qq('unqualified'), "qq-unqualified", "qq('unqualified') is oper" ); is( main::qq('main'), "qq-main", "main::qq() is func" ); is( &qq('amper'), "qq-amper", "&qq() is func" ); # qr operator can_ok( 'main', "qr" ); isnt( qr('unqualified'), "qr-unqualified", "qr('unqualified') is oper" ); is( main::qr('main'), "qr-main", "main::qr() is func" ); is( &qr('amper'), "qr-amper", "&qr() is func" ); # qw operator can_ok( 'main', "qw" ); isnt( qw('unqualified'), "qw-unqualified", "qw('unqualified') is oper" ); is( main::qw('main'), "qw-main", "main::qw() is func" ); is( &qw('amper'), "qw-amper", "&qw() is func" ); # qx operator can_ok( 'main', "qx" ); eval "qx('unqualified')"; like( $@, qr/^Insecure/, "qx('unqualified') doesn't work" ); is( main::qx('main'), "qx-main", "main::qx() is func" ); is( &qx('amper'), "qx-amper", "&qx() is func" ); # s operator can_ok( 'main', "s" ); eval "s('unqualified')"; like( $@, qr/^Substitution replacement not terminated/, "s('unqualified') doesn't work" ); is( main::s('main'), "s-main", "main::s() is func" ); is( &s('amper'), "s-amper", "&s() is func" ); # tr operator can_ok( 'main', "tr" ); eval "tr('unqualified')"; like( $@, qr/^Transliteration replacement not terminated/, "tr('unqualified') doesn't work" ); is( main::tr('main'), "tr-main", "main::tr() is func" ); is( &tr('amper'), "tr-amper", "&tr() is func" ); # y operator can_ok( 'main', "y" ); eval "y('unqualified')"; like( $@, qr/^Transliteration replacement not terminated/, "y('unqualified') doesn't work" ); is( main::y('main'), "y-main", "main::y() is func" ); is( &y('amper'), "y-amper", "&y() is func" ); =pod from irc://irc.perl.org/p5p 8/12/2004 kane-xs bug or feature? purl You decide!!!! kane-xs [kane@coke ~]$ perlc -le'sub y{1};y(1)' kane-xs Transliteration replacement not terminated at -e line 1. Nicholas bug I think kane-xs i'll perlbug rgs feature kane-xs smiles at rgs kane-xs done rgs will be closed at not a bug, rgs like the previous reports of this one Nicholas feature being first class and second class keywords? rgs you have similar ones with q, qq, qr, qx, tr, s and m rgs one could say 1st class keywords, yes rgs and I forgot qw kane-xs hmm silly... Nicholas it's acutally operators, isn't it? Nicholas as in you can't call a subroutine with the same name as an operator unless you have the & ? kane-xs or fqpn (fully qualified package name) kane-xs main::y() works just fine kane-xs as does &y; but not y() Andy If that's a feature, then let's write a test that it continues to work like that. =cut -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 12:40:47 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Thu Aug 12 12:40:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] apache mod_perl sybase Message-ID: Can anyone help? Apache 1.3.39 Perl 5.6.1 single threaded DBD::Sybase 1.02 We see the follow error intermitantly. Some of the pointers I've found from goggle suggest maybe a multi-threaded issue, as do my DBAs. DBD::Sybase::db selectall_arrayref failed: OpenClient message: LAYER = (1) ORIGIN = (1) SEVERITY = (1) NUMBER = (60) Server SYBPROD5, database Message String: ct_command(): user api layer: external error: There is a usage error. This routine has been called at an illegal time. [Thu Aug 12 12:16:36 2004] [error] Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From ehs at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 12:58:08 2004 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Thu Aug 12 13:54:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> Message-ID: <20040812175808.GA2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 01:03:11PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote: > And, what, this is in some way incorrect? :-) The all seeing eye from Barad-dur has swept this way! Fly you fools... From ehs at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 12:58:45 2004 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Thu Aug 12 13:55:32 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040812175845.GB2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 11:45:05AM -0500, Jim Thomason wrote: > But those big huge gigantic if/then/else ladders grate on me. Not sure if this is relevant, but when conditionals start bugging you a lot it might be time to start thinking about polymorphism [1]. Or not... //Ed [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ReplaceConditionalWithPolymorphism From thomasoniii at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:15:33 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Thu Aug 12 14:15:40 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions In-Reply-To: <20040812175845.GB2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> <20040812175845.GB2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70408121215451536b0@mail.gmail.com> > Not sure if this is relevant, but when conditionals start bugging you a > lot it might be time to start thinking about polymorphism [1]. Or not... > > //Ed I already went through my polymorphic re-factoring pass on that script. :-) The current procedural (non-machine-based) script is ~84 lines. The original one that I ripped up was 168 lines. Moved a lot of the additional security checking out of it into a slightly more complex superclass and a listing of configuration information. So I got rid of a lot of the things like: if ($user->can_delete($object)) { $object->delete(); } and replaced it with simple: $object->delete(); where the delete method internally looks up configuration information and does the delete if the user can is allowed. No, it wasn't just a matter of moving the conditional into the method, don't worry. But, even though the wheels already did spin in my head with ways to subclass all of my objects out the yinyang to create polymorphically subclassed state machines, that's not an avenue that I'm going to explore. -Jim.... From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Aug 12 14:27:03 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu Aug 12 14:27:05 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70408121215451536b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> <20040812175845.GB2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf70408121215451536b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <86hdr888e0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Thomason writes: Jim> if ($user->can_delete($object)) { Jim> $object->delete(); Jim> } Jim> and replaced it with simple: Jim> $object->delete(); I'm of the opinion that too many calls to ->can or ->isa or "ref $x eq 'THIS'" is a good sign that the person did not get objects very well, or a bad design. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From dha at panix.com Thu Aug 12 17:03:29 2004 From: dha at panix.com (David H. Adler) Date: Thu Aug 12 17:03:31 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040812175808.GA2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> <20040812175808.GA2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <20040812220329.GA2256@panix.com> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 12:58:08PM -0500, Ed Summers wrote: > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 01:03:11PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote: > > And, what, this is in some way incorrect? :-) > > The all seeing eye from Barad-dur has swept this way! Fly you fools... Now that you mention it, if you look at the Woolworth Building at just the right angle... :-) -- David H. Adler - - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ If history teaches us anything, it's that everyone will be part of the problem, but not everyone will be part of the solution. - Larry Wall From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 18:55:55 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 18:56:14 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> References: <21140.12.119.251.194.1092240475.squirrel@12.119.251.194> <20040811161427.GB23169@petdance.com> <4A754724D3FE8A4816D65DA7@duke.wrkhors.com> <93025B16207A76687955F311@duke.wrkhors.com> <20040811215527.GA23824@petdance.com> <20040812003950.GC2291@chloe.inkdroid.org> <20040812170311.GA5574@panix.com> Message-ID: > And, what, this is in some way incorrect? :-) NY has done a really poor job of collecting the taxes. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 19:24:37 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 19:24:54 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F16DE71870A25BDEE8B03B9@duke.wrkhors.com> -- Jim Thomason > http://www.jimandkoka.com/movie/edit.machine.txt - Why quote the hash keys if you use => ? 'setup' => sub { - If the states are sequential, why not use an array? Shifting state handlers just means, say, shifting the previous state off of a stack: my @handlerz = ( sub { # deal with startup ... # done starting up }, sub { # deal with running... $cgi->install( blah ) => sub { ... }; $cgi->install( 'shutdown' ) => sub { return }; # sit around events via the table until the # 'shutdown' event happens while( more_events ) { ... } # exit when running is done } sub { # deal with exiting... ... # exiting is done }, ); # while there's something to handle... # # state handlers exit to signify the end of # a state, last state => no more handlers. while( my $handler = shift @handlerz ) { $handler->(); } That or have the handlers themselves shift @handlers to signify a state change and change the loop to just: $handlerz[0]->() while @handlerz; Or put a sub { exit 0 } on the end and it becomes: $handlerz[0]->(); The next-to-last state change does its shift leaving the exit code on the stack. Nice thing here is that EVERY::LAST (from Damian's NEXT module) and some array inheritence allows for classes to push their handlers onto a stack during initialization: use base( handler1 handler2 ... ); my $stack = __PACKAGE__->construct; $stack->[0]->() while $@stack; Is all you really knead in the #! section. I'll be sticking a module onto CPAN that does this in a few weeks. Allows for things like: my $thing = Bar->construct( my => values ); my $other = Bletch->construct( qw( new stack top ) ); package Foo; use init { hashkey => value, ... }; package Bar; use base 'Foo'; use init { key => value, }; package Bletch use init [ array based ]; package Blort; use base 'Bletch'; use init [ top of stack before [ ]; Main issues at this point are how to deal with mis-matched data types in the inheritence stack. Warn me if it'd help at all with your stuff. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 19:27:26 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 19:27:45 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] design opinions In-Reply-To: <86hdr888e0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <5cfdfaf704081209456d251f3c@mail.gmail.com> <20040812175845.GB2248@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf70408121215451536b0@mail.gmail.com> <86hdr888e0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <99E9BC4EA95487E1A906C221@duke.wrkhors.com> > I'm of the opinion that too many calls to ->can or ->isa or "ref $x eq > 'THIS'" is a good sign that the person did not get objects very well, > or a bad design. Depends on where it lives in the code: If you're supplying a closure to manage data in an import based on the arguments, what else is there (in perl5)? -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 19:30:28 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 19:30:46 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] apache mod_perl sybase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -- Shawn Carroll > Can anyone help? > Apache 1.3.39 > Perl 5.6.1 single threaded > DBD::Sybase 1.02 > > We see the follow error intermitantly. Some of the pointers I've > found from goggle suggest maybe a multi-threaded issue, as do my DBAs. Compile a copy of perl with -Duse_threads and see if that fixes your problem. No reason to overwrite the existing insatll, probably takes 20 minutes for a Configure -ds --prefix=... and make all test install. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 12 23:16:44 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 12 23:17:03 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] ANNOUNCE: Advanced DBI tutorial slides (fwd) Message-ID: <71C9021D99F7FE8310715F7A@duke.wrkhors.com> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Tim Bunce Subject: ANNOUNCE: Advanced DBI tutorial slides > I uploaded the slides for my Advanced DBI tutorial shortly before OSCON > but forgot to announce them: > > file: $CPAN/authors/id/T/TI/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004.tar.gz > size: 3122405 bytes > md5: b8a8f1732a0d67c6c69e48e4541c3162 > > Most easily read online via: > > http://search.cpan.org/src/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004/index.htm > > you'll also find some mention of DBI v2 here: > > http://search.cpan.org/src/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004/sld097.htm > > Tim. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From andy at petdance.com Mon Aug 16 16:22:32 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Mon Aug 16 16:22:35 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] perl in dekalb Message-ID: <20040816212232.GA13937@petdance.com> Look! Jason Crome is not alone in cornland! http://jobs.perl.org/job/1724 xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From lembark at wrkhors.com Mon Aug 16 23:36:10 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Mon Aug 16 23:36:30 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Easily inheritable metadata Message-ID: <420797DE6333966E6ED7F3DE@duke.wrkhors.com> Got sick of merging things by hand. This is now the guts of an OO compiler/datamunger suite at Cognia. Any suggestions welcome. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NEXT-init-0.99.tar.gz Type: application/x-gunzip Size: 6065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20040817/8b473080/NEXT-init-0.99.tar.bin From crome at devnetinc.com Tue Aug 17 07:42:22 2004 From: crome at devnetinc.com (Jason A. Crome) Date: Tue Aug 17 07:41:14 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] perl in dekalb In-Reply-To: <20040816212232.GA13937@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040817115301.DA8B823941C@beowulf.devnetinc.com> Damn, I thought I was the only one in DeKalb who knew what Perl was! ;) -------------------------------------------------- Jason A. Crome Senior Software Engineer, DEVNET, Inc. E-Mail: crome@devnetinc.com http://www.devnetinc.com > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:chicago-talk-bounces@mail.pm.org] On Behalf Of Andy Lester > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 4:23 PM > To: chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > Subject: [Chicago-talk] perl in dekalb > > > Look! Jason Crome is not alone in cornland! > > http://jobs.perl.org/job/1724 > > xoa > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => > AIM:petdance _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From lembark at wrkhors.com Tue Aug 17 10:01:28 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Tue Aug 17 10:01:48 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] perl in dekalb In-Reply-To: <20040817115301.DA8B823941C@beowulf.devnetinc.com> References: <20040817115301.DA8B823941C@beowulf.devnetinc.com> Message-ID: -- "Jason A. Crome" > Damn, I thought I was the only one in DeKalb who knew what Perl was! ;) Hey, a perfectly legit reason to have a beer and celebrate. Oh... and discuss programming. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From zrusilla at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 11:12:34 2004 From: zrusilla at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Cortell) Date: Tue Aug 17 11:12:36 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] perl in dekalb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040817161234.73959.qmail@web41208.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Lembark wrote: > Hey, a perfectly legit reason to have a beer and celebrate. And when you do, tell 'em to give me the job! (Yes, I sent in my resume and a cover letter.) Cheers, Liz __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From frag at ripco.com Tue Aug 17 16:19:02 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Tue Aug 17 16:19:06 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question Message-ID: In the view that lets you view a bug and the subsequent replies, there's two links to each message: [Reply] and [Comment]. I'm not sure what the difference is between the two. I'm assuming that replies will send a private email that isn't part of the displayed thread, and comments will send email and also be displayed. Does anyone know if that's correct? -- Mike F. From andy at petdance.com Tue Aug 17 17:04:46 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Tue Aug 17 17:04:48 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 04:19:02PM -0500, Mike Fragassi (frag@ripco.com) wrote: > I'm not sure what the difference is between the two. I'm assuming that > replies will send a private email that isn't part of the displayed thread, > and comments will send email and also be displayed. Does anyone know if > that's correct? It's all in what the response page gives you. [Reply] will bring up the form with "Send response to requesters", and [Comment] will show the same form with "Don't send response to requesters". Or maybe it's the other way around. In either case, you can modify that pulldown as appropriate. xoxo, andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From frag at ripco.com Tue Aug 17 18:03:35 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Tue Aug 17 18:03:38 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> References: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > It's all in what the response page gives you. [Reply] will bring up the > form with "Send response to requesters", and [Comment] will show the > same form with "Don't send response to requesters". Or maybe it's the > other way around. In either case, you can modify that pulldown as > appropriate. Ummm...there's no pulldown at all, and I don't see either bit of text. For instance, see: http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/Update.html?id=27&QuoteTransaction=12261&Action=Comment -- which is what you get clicking the '[Comment]' link from the last message on: http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/Bug.html?id=27 -- Mike F. From gdf at speakeasy.net Tue Aug 17 19:50:34 2004 From: gdf at speakeasy.net (Greg Fast) Date: Tue Aug 17 19:50:38 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408180050.i7I0oZhR027264@www.pm.org> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:19:02 -0500 (CDT), Mike Fragassi wrote: > In the view that lets you view a bug and the subsequent replies, there's > two links to each message: [Reply] and [Comment]. > > I'm not sure what the difference is between the two. I'm assuming that > replies will send a private email that isn't part of the displayed thread, > and comments will send email and also be displayed. Does anyone know if > that's correct? "Comment" adds a comment to the history, visible to anyone who can view the bug/issue, but sends no email. "Reply" adds a comment to the issue history, and also sends that comment to the original requestor and anyone else listed as an interested party for the issue. Neither is particularly "private", as I recall. -- Greg Fast http://cken.chi.groogroo.com/~gdf/ From jt at plainblack.com Tue Aug 17 20:03:37 2004 From: jt at plainblack.com (JT Smith) Date: Tue Aug 17 20:02:45 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: <200408180050.i7I0oZhR027264@www.pm.org> Message-ID: >"Comment" adds a comment to the history, visible to anyone who can >view the bug/issue, but sends no email. "Reply" adds a comment to the >issue history, and also sends that comment to the original requestor >and anyone else listed as an interested party for the issue. Neither >is particularly "private", as I recall. Actually "comment" can have it's own privileges distinct from reply within RT. For instance, if you were using RT to do support for your clients, you'd "reply" to everything you want the client to see and "comment" to everything you only want internal people to see. So "comment" is usually where you want to say: I can't believe this client is such a f###ing idiot! However, this stuff is all tweakable in RT, so it depends on how your RT administrator has configured it. JT ~ Plain Black Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave. From andy at petdance.com Tue Aug 17 21:17:43 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Tue Aug 17 21:17:45 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: References: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> Message-ID: > > Ummm...there's no pulldown at all, and I don't see either bit of text. > For instance, see: > > http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/Update.html? > id=27&QuoteTransaction=12261&Action=Comment > Ah, you're not signed in. Then I don't know what the difference is. xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 18 00:57:16 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 18 00:57:19 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: <200408180057.i7I0vFbO025027@e4500.ripco.com> References: <200408180057.i7I0vFbO025027@e4500.ripco.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Greg Fast wrote: > "Comment" adds a comment to the history, visible to anyone who can > view the bug/issue, but sends no email. "Reply" adds a comment to the > issue history, and also sends that comment to the original requestor > and anyone else listed as an interested party for the issue. Neither > is particularly "private", as I recall. Thanks - now it makes sense. And thanks, JT. I was just asking about CPAN's RT in particular, although installing RT is on the todo list. -- Mike F. From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 18 00:57:55 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 18 00:57:57 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: References: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Andy Lester wrote: > > > > Ummm...there's no pulldown at all, and I don't see either bit of text. > > For instance, see: > > > > http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/Update.html? > > id=27&QuoteTransaction=12261&Action=Comment > > > > Ah, you're not signed in. Then I don't know what the difference is. Don't you need a PAUSE id for that? -- Mike F. From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 18 04:50:04 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 18 04:50:06 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] rt.cpan.org question In-Reply-To: References: <20040817220446.GA19607@petdance.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:57 AM, Mike Fragassi wrote: >> >> Ah, you're not signed in. Then I don't know what the difference is. > > Don't you need a PAUSE id for that? > Probably. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 10:36:27 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 10:36:37 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style Message-ID: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> Hi, I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide (maybe written by Damian) available. I'd like to read it if someone could point me at it Thanks Jay From zrusilla at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 11:02:11 2004 From: zrusilla at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Cortell) Date: Wed Aug 18 11:02:13 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: <20040818160211.50188.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide available. Or we could develop our own style guide. 1) Every day is casual Friday. 2) Dockers are standard attire for men. In the summer, shorts for either sex, but nothing too short, keep your chubby thighs to yourself. 3) Occasional bathing is desirable. Perl hackers might be advised to check out the local barbershop, too. 4) Hawaiian shirts are always acceptable. So are tie-dye t-shirts. Or any open-source swag t-shirts. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From zrusilla at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 11:10:34 2004 From: zrusilla at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Cortell) Date: Wed Aug 18 11:10:36 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818160211.50188.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040818161034.22898.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> And! of utmost importance! If you must wear a shirt with a collar, make sure it's short sleeved. Otherwise, other Perl hackers might confuse you for a suit and duck into supply closets to avoid you. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ehs at pobox.com Wed Aug 18 11:23:01 2004 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Wed Aug 18 11:23:06 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:36:27AM -0500, Jay Strauss wrote: > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide (maybe written by > Damian) available. I'd like to read it if someone could point me at it Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) 'perldoc perlstyle' should provide some basics, if you haven't read them. After seeing a lot of different styles in Perl code I've come to the conclusion that being consistent is the most important thing-- which isn't always easy to achieve yourself, let alone with teams of multiple developers. Having guildelines that make the implicit explicit is a good place to start //Ed From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Aug 18 11:32:19 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed Aug 18 11:32:23 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818160211.50188.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040818160211.50188.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86ekm4v23w.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Elizabeth" == Elizabeth Cortell writes: Elizabeth> shorts for either sex It must be early. I first parsed this as "shorts for sex". ewww. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From thomasoniii at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 11:33:15 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Wed Aug 18 11:33:20 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> > Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) Andy'd mentioned something at the last meeting about attending a talk on perl style given by Damien as OSCON. He took copious notes which he waved around at us and said, "You should all read these...but they're MINE MINE MINE!" at which point he hid them in his briefcase and ran out of the room, never to be seen again. We received a report from the Nashville Perl Mongers that he was moving south on I-57 at a high rate of speed in a pale yellow AMC Gremlin, but we have not yet confirmed. I vaguely recall a reference to said talk being turned into an O'Reilly book at some point in the future, which would probably be the only hope of seeing them, unless Andy decides to share. -Jim... From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:04:54 2004 From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll) Date: Wed Aug 18 12:04:57 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Damien did give a talk at OSCON on that topic. He did mention something about a book. I've even have notes from the class. My thought though is just go read perldoc perlstyle On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:33:15 -0500, Jim Thomason wrote: > > Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) > > Andy'd mentioned something at the last meeting about attending a talk > on perl style given by Damien as OSCON. He took copious notes which he > waved around at us and said, "You should all read these...but they're > MINE MINE MINE!" at which point he hid them in his briefcase and ran > out of the room, never to be seen again. We received a report from the > Nashville Perl Mongers that he was moving south on I-57 at a high rate > of speed in a pale yellow AMC Gremlin, but we have not yet confirmed. > > I vaguely recall a reference to said talk being turned into an > O'Reilly book at some point in the future, which would probably be the > only hope of seeing them, unless Andy decides to share. > > -Jim... > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > -- shawn.c.carroll@gmail.com Perl Programmer Soccer Referee From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 18 12:08:35 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 18 12:08:37 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <20040818170835.GA22848@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 11:23:01AM -0500, Ed Summers (ehs@pobox.com) wrote: > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:36:27AM -0500, Jay Strauss wrote: > > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide (maybe written by > > Damian) available. I'd like to read it if someone could point me at it Damian gave a talk at OSCON called Perl Best Practice. It will become a book for O'Reilly. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From gdf at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 18 13:29:38 2004 From: gdf at speakeasy.net (Greg Fast) Date: Wed Aug 18 13:29:42 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Net::Rendezvous Message-ID: <200408181829.i7IITdOD004871@www.pm.org> Has anyone used Net::Rendezvous? I want to play around with rendezvous, but I'm getting errors on (ironically) my iBook. I'm running the synopsis example from N::R's pod: use Net::Rendezvous; my $res = Net::Rendezvous->new( 'workstation' ); $res->discover; foreach my $entry ( $res->entries ) { printf "%s %s:%s\n", $entry->name, $entry->address, $entry->port; } On a linux box, it seems to work (though it takes 2 min!): 2021% perl r.pl Tofu\032[00:0a:95:b8:f0:6c] : (Except that only the "name" field contains any data. Perhaps the entry isn't getting parsed correctly?) But on the iBook: gregfast$ perl r.pl Can't call method "header" on an undefined value at /Library/Perl/5.8.1/Net/Rendezvous.pm line 216. Stepping through with the debugger, it appears that the module is getting appropriate data, but not in an expected format. Any suggestions? -- Greg Fast http://cken.chi.groogroo.com/~gdf/ From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 18 13:42:39 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 18 13:42:42 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Jim Thomason wrote: > > Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) > > Andy'd mentioned something at the last meeting about attending a talk > on perl style given by Damien as OSCON. He took copious notes which he > waved around at us and said, "You should all read these...but they're > MINE MINE MINE!" at which point he hid them in his briefcase and ran > out of the room, never to be seen again. That must have been a different meeting from the one where I asked Andy for the notes, he gave them to me, and I skimmed over them looking for stuff I hadn't seen before. A few of the things that caught my eye were: * wrap filehandles in braces, e.g.: print {$fh} "blah"x3; * explicitly use /s in regexps by default * recommendations to use version.pm & Perl6::Export -- Mike F. From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 18 15:58:35 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 18 15:58:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: > which isn't always easy to achieve yourself, let alone with teams of > multiple developers. Having guildelines that make the implicit explicit > is a good place to start Most likely your style will develop as you learn, or as a team works together. One good test is to go back to code you wrote, say, a year ago and ask if you can still maintain it. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 18 16:01:38 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 18 16:01:57 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > * explicitly use /s in regexps by default Unless you habitully work with multiline input or... -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Aug 18 16:03:42 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed Aug 18 16:04:02 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <20040818170835.GA22848@petdance.com> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <20040818170835.GA22848@petdance.com> Message-ID: <26CD5A94179C5B1A4EF4F04A@duke.wrkhors.com> > Damian gave a talk at OSCON called Perl Best Practice. It will become a > book for O'Reilly. Which may take a while, given his current schedule. This is different from "style", however, in that the BP include programming constructs that help purge gremlins rather than make the code look pretty. One good example is separating construction and initialization of code: it may not make the code any easier to read but does aid in assembling and inheriting data. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 18 21:04:06 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:04:08 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Next meeting: Monster Perl Garage Message-ID: <20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com> This month's Chicago Perl Mongers meeting, September 7 at 7pm will be a get-your-hands-dirty test-suite workshop that we call "Monster Perl Garage", or "This Old Module". We'll be the very first Perl Mongers group to overhaul a module's test suite for the Phalanx Project, which was started to improve the testing and quality of commonly-used Perl modules in anticipation of Perl 5.10 and Perl 6. Put on your overalls and get ready to dive under the hood of HTML::Tree by Sean Burke. The Chicago Monster Mongers team will reengineer the test suite for maximum performance and ride the finished product around the parking lot. You'll learn how to engineer high-octane tests for your own code and be equipped to help CPAN move into the next generation of Perl. All work will be done on the big screen, but if you have a wi-fi laptop in your toolbox, bring it along and join in the fun. When our hands are clean, we'll post how we did it to encourage other Perl Monger groups to do the same. Directions at http://chicago.pm.org/meetings/ xoxo, Andy (Thanks to Liz Cortell for writing this up) -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 21:01:10 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:10:50 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> As usual, I left out an important detail. I've already read the perlstyle (a number of times in the last couple of years). My main problems are: I don't like have variable names like: $variable_name_like_this I like'm like: variableNameLikeThis I also don't like: "No space between function name and its opening parenthesis." I know it's a free world, and I can do as I like in my own code but I feel I should adhere to the style guides since they're there, and someone smarter and more experienced then me thinks they are a good idea. What do you guys/gals do with: 1) variable names 2) function names 3) the "{" after a function anything else in particular Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Summers" To: "Chicago.pm chatter" Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:36:27AM -0500, Jay Strauss wrote: > > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide (maybe written by > > Damian) available. I'd like to read it if someone could point me at it > > Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) > > 'perldoc perlstyle' should provide some basics, if you haven't read > them. After seeing a lot of different styles in Perl code I've come to > the conclusion that being consistent is the most important thing-- > which isn't always easy to achieve yourself, let alone with teams of multiple > developers. Having guildelines that make the implicit explicit is a good > place to start > > //Ed > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 21:05:02 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:10:50 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <20040818160211.50188.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012901c48591$ba434760$6705a8c0@a30a> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Cortell" To: "Chicago.pm chatter" Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style > > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" > guide available. > Or we could develop our own style guide. > > 1) Every day is casual Friday. > 2) Dockers are standard attire for men. In the > summer, shorts for either sex, but nothing too short, > keep your chubby thighs to yourself. > 3) Occasional bathing is desirable. Perl hackers > might be advised to check out the local barbershop, > too. > 4) Hawaiian shirts are always acceptable. So are > tie-dye t-shirts. Or any open-source swag t-shirts. I hardly call that "style". ;) From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 21:06:01 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:10:51 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a><20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <5cfdfaf7040818093370929a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012a01c48591$ba7294c0$6705a8c0@a30a> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Thomason" To: "Chicago.pm chatter" Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style > > Not sure about Damian style, unless you mean Perl6 :-) > > Andy'd mentioned something at the last meeting about attending a talk > on perl style given by Damien as OSCON. I think that was it Jay From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 21:06:52 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:10:52 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a><20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <20040818170835.GA22848@petdance.com> Message-ID: <012b01c48591$baa9aa50$6705a8c0@a30a> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lester" To: "Chicago.pm chatter" Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 11:23:01AM -0500, Ed Summers (ehs@pobox.com) wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:36:27AM -0500, Jay Strauss wrote: > > > I recall reading that there is a new "perl style" guide (maybe written by > > > Damian) available. I'd like to read it if someone could point me at it > > Damian gave a talk at OSCON called Perl Best Practice. It will become a > book for O'Reilly. > > xoa > Great, another compulsory O'Reilly book From thomasoniii at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 21:22:07 2004 From: thomasoniii at gmail.com (Jim Thomason) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:22:09 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> > 1) variable names > 2) function names I'm tragically non-standard. I'm trying to break myself of the habit and be consistent one way or the other. Variable names I tend to follow perl style with underbars between words. $this_is_a_variable. functions/methods I'll change, sometimes (sigh...usually) in mid-module. I haven't quite put my finder on why, yet. $object->insert_columns looks fine, but $object->inserColumns doesn't. $object->isBindable looks fine, but $object->is_bindable doesn't. I'm trying to correct things as I see them in my code to the underscore style. Of course, it's slightly complicated for me because studly caps are the preferred style in objective-C. > 3) the "{" after a function Goes on the same line as the function. sub foo { } So do opening if statements. if ($something) { } I'll switch around the placement of elsif/else blocks. if ($something) { } else { } if ($something) { } else { } Sometimes one or the other looks better. I'm not particularly married to either of them. I dislike opening braces on the start of a line. >anything else in particular I used to love but now hate the perlish way of putting single line ifs on the same line as the braces. if ($something) {somethingShort()}; else {otherShortThing()}; It looks too jumbled to me nowadays. (note - see? I'm back to studly caps already) I've also grown to really like inline pod. Inline tests are nice, too, but I'm starting to clutter up my code a bit more than I'd necessarily like. I think it's the lesser of the evils vs. having them external. Basically, the only maxim that I really am concerned with is spacing out your code. Whitespace does an incredible amount for clarity of software. Put related bits of processing on subsequent lines, but put spaces between unrelated (or loosely related) bits. Put a few more spaces between less related items. It helps to visually break up the software into chunks which makes it easier to read, I find. Oh, and I follow the old Einstein quote of making things as simple as possible, but no simpler. Naturally, perl people love compact code. And I do think it's advantageous - shrinking stuff down more leaves less room for bugs. Just don't shrink to the point that clarity suffers. -Jim.... From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Wed Aug 18 21:25:56 2004 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Wed Aug 18 21:27:13 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20040818/e8c99596/attachment.htm From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Wed Aug 18 22:02:22 2004 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Wed Aug 18 22:03:38 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/chicago-talk/attachments/20040818/6d57560a/attachment.htm From andy at petdance.com Wed Aug 18 22:32:10 2004 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed Aug 18 22:32:14 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: Monster Perl Garage In-Reply-To: <20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com> References: <20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20040819033210.GA2226@petdance.com> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:04:06PM -0500, Andy Lester (andy@petdance.com) wrote: > This month's Chicago Perl Mongers meeting, September 7 at 7pm will be a > get-your-hands-dirty test-suite workshop that we call "Monster Perl > Garage", or "This Old Module". We need a scribe for this meeting, someone who can take notes about what's going on. Someone who can think in POD, so that we can put the notes up on qa.perl.org or phalanx.kwiki.org. xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From frag at ripco.com Wed Aug 18 22:54:38 2004 From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi) Date: Wed Aug 18 22:54:40 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 Andy_Bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote: > Now, from the Owl book (Friedl "Mastering Regular Expressions"), I've > learned the /s can be called 'single mode' in that it affects a single > RE metachar, to wit the '.' With "/s" the '.' will match the \n char. > That's it. The "/m" can be called "multi mode" in that it affects 2 > (aka "multiple") RE metachars, the caret and dollar sign. In "/m" they > match on either side of a normal 'line' (the $/ (er, $\?) char, normally > \n) so that in a /g situation, for example, they'll match more than once > if you have multi-line input. In the "/m" case \A and \Z can be used to > match the absolute string begin/string end - otherwise "^" is the same > as "\A" and "$" is the same as "\Z" > > I inject this here, only because its taken many, many rereads of that > section and I still have the sinking feeling I've not got it right yet. > I'm closer, maybe but ... That looks basically right to me, except you left out \z vs. \Z. -- Mike F. From me at heyjay.com Wed Aug 18 23:50:07 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Wed Aug 18 23:50:22 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a><20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org><012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> > > > 3) the "{" after a function > > Goes on the same line as the function. perlstyle says it looks like: sub function{ rather than sub function { (notice, no space between "function" and "{") Jay From me at heyjay.com Thu Aug 19 08:23:02 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Thu Aug 19 08:23:17 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: Monster PerlGarage References: <20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com> <20040819033210.GA2226@petdance.com> Message-ID: <005501c485ef$a8bb6d70$6705a8c0@a30a> Is this meeting still at WDI? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lester" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: Monster PerlGarage > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:04:06PM -0500, Andy Lester (andy@petdance.com) wrote: > > This month's Chicago Perl Mongers meeting, September 7 at 7pm will be a > > get-your-hands-dirty test-suite workshop that we call "Monster Perl > > Garage", or "This Old Module". > > We need a scribe for this meeting, someone who can take notes about > what's going on. Someone who can think in POD, so that we can put the > notes up on qa.perl.org or phalanx.kwiki.org. > > xoxo, > Andy > > -- > Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > From gdf at speakeasy.net Thu Aug 19 08:44:41 2004 From: gdf at speakeasy.net (Greg Fast) Date: Thu Aug 19 08:44:44 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: Monster PerlGarage In-Reply-To: <005501c485ef$a8bb6d70$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <005501c485ef$a8bb6d70$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com> <20040819033210.GA2226@petdance.com> Message-ID: <200408191344.i7JDigCk019234@www.pm.org> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:23:02 -0500, "Jay Strauss" wrote: > Is this meeting still at WDI? Yep. Sept 7 is at WDI, but is the last meeting there. -- Greg Fast http://cken.chi.groogroo.com/~gdf/ From me at heyjay.com Thu Aug 19 09:29:49 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Thu Aug 19 09:30:00 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: MonsterPerlGarage References: <005501c485ef$a8bb6d70$6705a8c0@a30a><20040819020405.GA1871@petdance.com><20040819033210.GA2226@petdance.com> <200408191344.i7JDigCk019234@www.pm.org> Message-ID: <000901c485f8$fd29b890$6705a8c0@a30a> Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Fast" To: "Chicago.pm chatter" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Re: [Chicago-announce] Next meeting: MonsterPerlGarage > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:23:02 -0500, "Jay Strauss" wrote: > > Is this meeting still at WDI? > > Yep. Sept 7 is at WDI, but is the last meeting there. > > -- > Greg Fast > http://cken.chi.groogroo.com/~gdf/ > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > > From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 19 12:35:41 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 19 12:36:02 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: > 1) variable names as a longtime C hacker I use underscores; iDontFindThisFormatAnyEasierToRead. > 2) function names sub foo { indented text w/in function } foo "arguments", "to", "foo"; > 3) the "{" after a function I don't snuggle braces, tend to leave things vertical on separate lines: easier to see and edit. if( whatever ) { } elsif( whatever else ) { } else { } or if ( some && some more && even more yet && yet ever more ) { block } or map { oneliner } map { longer map with multiple lines become easier to edit if not snuggled } > anything else in particular Take a look at FindBin::libs or Schedule::Depend for lots of examples, NEXT::init was on the mailing list last week. Most of the people who've had to hack my code found it readable. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 19 12:41:05 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 19 12:41:27 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> -- Jay Strauss >> >> > 3) the "{" after a function >> >> Goes on the same line as the function. > > perlstyle says it looks like: > > sub function{ > > rather than > > sub function { > > (notice, no space between "function" and "{") The guideline is just that: a guide. Perl is agnostic to whitespace: put spaces between all of your dollar signs and the variable names if it pleases you: DB<1> $ a = 'foo' DB<2> print $ a foo The only reall issue is to pick a style that's readable and relatively easy to maintain. The trick of snuggling everything comes from publishers, who don't want the extra page space used for curlys, etc. Since my editor will gracefull in- and outdent using blocks I put the curlys on separate lines for easier editing. If you really want to program in a language that requires rigid formatting use COBOL or Python. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 19 12:54:02 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 19 12:54:22 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I inject this here, only because its taken many, many rereads of that > section and I still have the sinking feeling I've not got it right yet. > I'm closer, maybe but ... s&m in perl are about bondage to newlines. Sometimes you grab a string with them and want to match a string with newlines embedded in them: :SQL select foo from bar where bletch = 'blort' :COMMENT This is a comment with multiple lines embedded in it. :UNPACK :PRINT Heading: :COMMENT Finito This is a snippet of DML that we use here for bulk data handling. If I wanted to grab the comment I could use: m{:COMMENT(.+)(?=\n:\w+)}s to find a ":COMMENT" and grab whatever followed it (.+) up to the next newline-colon-word. The 's' allows '.' to match a newline (which it normally doesn't). One common use of these is with global searches to grab embedded strings in free-form text read in slurp mode. In that case it'll usually be m{before(.+)after}gs so that the '.' can span newlines. The 'm' option is useful when you know the text is NOT freeform: it's line based (as in the example above). With 'm' the ^ and $ operators will bind within the string wherever there's a newline. In this case the DML above is parsed here via: my @tokens = split /^:(\w+)/, $program_string; with the '^' binding after each newline in the string to find however many lines beginning with a colon+word there are in the string. For the example above this gives: ( SQL select ... COMMENT This ... UNPACK '' PRINT Heading: COMMENT Finito ) (sans most of the quotes). Since UNPACK didn't have any text following it split leaves me with an empty string. Point is that 'm' option makes this easier to parse with the '^' sliding along the newlines. Without it I'd have to find a regex that handled the first line and rest of them via optional newlines, etc. Blech... -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Aug 19 13:41:18 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu Aug 19 13:41:21 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <86wtzvm0mp.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Steven" == Steven Lembark writes: Steven> The trick of snuggling everything comes from publishers, Steven> who don't want the extra page space used for curlys, etc. Uh, no. I do it because I don't want to spend a lot of time needlessly scrolling up and down past lines that don't add any value. if (XXXXX) { # <<== clearly the beginning of the if foo; # <<== clearly the body bar; # <<== more body } # <<== clearly the end if (XXXX) { # <<== beginnng foo; # <<== "if true" } else { # <<== clearly the switch from if-true to if-false bar; # <<== "if false" } # <<== now we're done I don't see what adding an extra line in there to put the open curly on a separate line buys you. Except a wasted line when you're trying to scroll up and down to see your code. Each one of those lines has a logical distinct purpose. Nothing is wasted. Unnestled curlies add an extra line: if (XXX) # <<== beginning an if { # <<== but we already knew that... ! ... -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From lembark at wrkhors.com Thu Aug 19 16:18:24 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Thu Aug 19 16:18:55 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <86wtzvm0mp.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> <86wtzvm0mp.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <84895181A07DC04402D67607@duke.wrkhors.com> -- "Randal L. Schwartz" >>>>>> "Steven" == Steven Lembark writes: > > Steven> The trick of snuggling everything comes from publishers, > Steven> who don't want the extra page space used for curlys, etc. > > Uh, no. I do it because I don't want to spend a lot of time needlessly > scrolling up and down past lines that don't add any value. > > if (XXXXX) { # <<== clearly the beginning of the if > foo; # <<== clearly the body > bar; # <<== more body > } # <<== clearly the end > > if (XXXX) { # <<== beginnng > foo; # <<== "if true" > } else { # <<== clearly the switch from if-true to if-false > bar; # <<== "if false" > } # <<== now we're done > > I don't see what adding an extra line in there to put the open curly > on a separate line buys you. Except a wasted line when you're trying > to scroll up and down to see your code. Each one of those lines has a > logical distinct purpose. Nothing is wasted. Unnestled curlies > add an extra line: > > if (XXX) # <<== beginning an if > { # <<== but we already knew that... ! > ... if (XXXXX) { # <<== clearly the beginning of the if foo; # <<== clearly the body bar; # <<== more body } # <<== clearly the end if (XXXX) { # <<== beginnng foo; # <<== "if true" } else # <<== clearly the switch from if-true to if-false bar; # <<== "if false" } # <<== now we're done Also simplified block indent via '%' in vi. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From shild at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 19 17:47:07 2004 From: shild at sbcglobal.net (Scott T. Hildreth) Date: Thu Aug 19 17:46:42 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: <1092955627.201.18.camel@localhost> I used to be a die hard user of sub foo { } then one day, sub foo { } became my favorite. I think it was Tim Bunce that converted me, I was coding some 'C' for him, and to be consistent I was using this style and started liking it. I use it for Sql as well. i.e. Create Table Foo ( ) or $dbh->selectall_arrayref(q{ Select blah From foo Where bar = ? }, undef, value); ...etc. I never do this in Perl (I did when coding 'C'), if (value) { $a = 1; } always, $a = 1 if value; ...anyway just my addition to the style thread... On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 12:35, Steven Lembark wrote: > > 1) variable names > > as a longtime C hacker I use underscores; > iDontFindThisFormatAnyEasierToRead. > > > 2) function names > > sub foo > { > indented text w/in function > } > > foo "arguments", "to", "foo"; > > > > 3) the "{" after a function > > I don't snuggle braces, tend to leave things vertical > on separate lines: easier to see and edit. > > if( whatever ) > { > } > elsif( whatever else ) > { > } > else > { > } > > or > > if > ( > some && > some more && > even more yet && > yet ever more > ) > { > block > } > > or > > map { oneliner } > > map > { > longer > map > with > multiple > lines > become > easier > to > edit > if > not > snuggled > } > > > anything else in particular > > Take a look at FindBin::libs or Schedule::Depend for lots > of examples, NEXT::init was on the mailing list last week. > > Most of the people who've had to hack my code found it readable. > From zrusilla at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 18:29:54 2004 From: zrusilla at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Cortell) Date: Thu Aug 19 18:29:57 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <1092955627.201.18.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20040819232955.16710.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Hildreth wrote: > then one day, > sub foo { > } > became my favorite. I have always coded that way, first in C/C++ and then in Perl. I don't find the parentheses any harder to read, and it wastes less vertical space. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From me at heyjay.com Fri Aug 20 08:28:06 2004 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Fri Aug 20 08:28:15 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a><20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org><012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a><5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com><015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <004401c486b9$883f7b70$6705a8c0@a30a> > The guideline is just that: a guide. Perl is agnostic to > whitespace: put spaces between all of your dollar signs > and the variable names if it pleases you: > > DB<1> $ a = 'foo' > > DB<2> print $ a > foo > > The only reall issue is to pick a style that's readable > and relatively easy to maintain. So net/net, even though there is a style guide, no one really follows it. They only follow it when it coincides with something they already do. And Damian didn't put out a new style guide, but will at some point in the future will be writing a perl best practices book. Be internally consistent in your code. If possible be project consistent too. Jay From lembark at wrkhors.com Fri Aug 20 10:18:22 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Fri Aug 20 10:18:44 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: <004401c486b9$883f7b70$6705a8c0@a30a> References: <008401c48539$21b6e180$6705a8c0@a30a> <20040818162301.GA12150@chloe.inkdroid.org> <012801c48591$ba16e030$6705a8c0@a30a> <5cfdfaf70408181922139eae28@mail.gmail.com> <015701c485a8$039f2da0$6705a8c0@a30a> <92A66AA854D40DB3989C862D@duke.wrkhors.com> <004401c486b9$883f7b70$6705a8c0@a30a> Message-ID: > So net/net, even though there is a style guide, no one really > follows it. They only follow it when it coincides with > something they already do. Maybe a better way to say it that the in the absence of any strong preference, learning to code in accordance with the style guide tends to leave your code more readable. So, most people will follow the guide if it doesn't break their view of how to code -- and the language is flexable enough to accomodate the variety of styles in any case. It also provdes a decent starting point if you have no idea at all how to do things. Slavish attention to rules will eventually leave your code unusable, that's why this is a style 'guide' and not built into the Perl syntax. If you have a decent reason for doing things differently then follow your reasoning. If not then follow the guide. -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Sun Aug 22 14:48:00 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Sun Aug 22 14:48:28 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Automatic handling of insert ... returning querys. Message-ID: <5F84F38162B1471D116B6E11@duke.wrkhors.com> After noticing the syntax I've written a module that handles the process. Before putting it on CPAN I'd like to get opinons on the interface. The point is to avoid all of the bind_param_inout setup by creating some per-handle metadata with the bound array and fields to copy in from @_, out to the caller. After that the caller only sees a prep step and the execute calls. One approach uses classes derived from DBI and DBI::st to add "prepare_bound" to DBI and "execute" to DBI::st. The resulting code looks somethingn like: my $dbh = blah; my $sql = q{ insert into table ( ... ) values ( ?, ?, ?, ?) returning idfield into ? }; my $sth = $dbh->prepare_bound( $sql ); ... my $id = $sth->execute( @insert_values ); or my @id = $sth->execute( @insert_values ); This seems nice in that the syntax for prepare (and prepare_bound_cached) look rather DBI-ish. Catch is that this makes deriving other classes and using statement handles from oddly-derived classes somewhat tricky. Another approach is simply adding a post-processing step to the statement handle: my $dbh = blah; my $sth = $dbh->prepare( $sql ); $sth->binderize( $sql ); my $id = $sth->execute_bound( @insert_values ); The downside here is extra steps to binderize the handle and a separate execute command -- which might interfere with the statement handle if accidentally mixed with $sth->execute. Personally, I'm leaning towards the first technique even if the internals are a bit messier: NEXT makes re-dispatching the execute and prepare steps manageable and the syntax seems cleaner. Any suggestions? -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th St. Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Sun Aug 22 14:48:48 2004 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Sun Aug 22 14:49:10 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] ANNOUNCE: Advanced DBI tutorial slides (fwd) Message-ID: In case someone hasn't seen these. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Tim Bunce Subject: ANNOUNCE: Advanced DBI tutorial slides > I uploaded the slides for my Advanced DBI tutorial shortly before OSCON > but forgot to announce them: > > file: $CPAN/authors/id/T/TI/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004.tar.gz > size: 3122405 bytes > md5: b8a8f1732a0d67c6c69e48e4541c3162 > > Most easily read online via: > > http://search.cpan.org/src/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004/index.htm > > you'll also find some mention of DBI v2 here: > > http://search.cpan.org/src/TIMB/DBI_AdvancedTalk_2004/sld097.htm > > Tim. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- -- Steven Lembark 9 Music Square South, Box 344 Workhorse Computing Nashville, TN 37203 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov Mon Aug 23 11:31:18 2004 From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov) Date: Mon Aug 23 11:32:45 2004 Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl Style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > except you left out \z vs. \Z. Now, from the Owl book (Friedl "Mastering Regular Expressions"), I've learned the /s can be called 'single mode' in that it affects a single RE metachar, to wit the '.' With "/s" the '.' will match the \n char. That's it. The "/m" can be called "multi mode" in that it affects 2 (aka "multiple") RE metachars, the caret and dollar sign. In "/m" they match on either side of a normal 'line' (the $/ (er, $\?) char, normally \n) so that in a /g situation, for example, they'll match more than once if you have multi-line input. In the "/m" case \A and \Z can be used to match the absolute string begin/string end *before the newline* - otherwise "^" is the same as "\A" and "$" is the same as "\Z" "\z" always matches the physical end of a string - that is, as opposed to '$' and '\Z' which match the end of a string if there is no newline in which case they match right before the final newline at the end of the string (unless in the /m mode - in which case they match before *every* newline; see above ;-). a Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler Internet: andy_bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932 "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we should remain silent." L. Wittgenstein