From rise at frii.com  Tue Jan  2 01:42:55 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Font width/length for CGI scripts using CSS
In-Reply-To: <3A4E2D58.CB70446@fsl.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101020014200.16834-100000@io.frii.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Scott Longmore wrote:

> Not really worried about lynx w3m or emacs...as our customers will
> be accessing these documents via netscape or ie through T1 connections.

If you can rely on Netscape there's an HTML solution using a proprietary
tag. The <multicol> extension is designed to allow you to flow text (and
presumable other HTML elements) over multiple column layouts. Basically
you define a multicol element with a specified number of columns (and
gutter, width, style etc.) and Netscape automatically balances the text
over that number of columns. Unfortunately this requires Netscape 4+ (I
haven't tried it with Mozilla or Netscape 6), but if you can use this
option there's reasonably detailed discussion starting on page 466 of
"HTML & XHTML: The Definitive Guide" (Musciano & Kennedy, O'Reilly and
Assoc., 0-596-00026-X). The one saving grace of going this way is that
non-Netscape browsers will ignore the tag and fall back to single column
so you won't render the material unreadable.

> This is the way its currently being done now...were using framemaker
> manually to generate pdf files and postscript files. the postscript
> files are then converted to png files which are then put on the web
> page...ugly huh...the pdf file is a linked into the html files so
> customers can download and print it out.

Given that the Acrobat reader plugin for most platforms can display in the
browser frame I'm not sure what displaying in an image format gains you
except the compression PNG offers.

> Essentially...Im trying to automate the generation of a newsletter
> that can go on the web in html and create a downloadable pdf file by
> having the newsletter writer, scientist..not computer inclined <grin>,
> write a text file...that I can slurp in and dump into a nicely
> standardized and formated html file...need to be able to use
> columns..as he is use to seeing journal format...also will need to be
> able to embed images here and there. Were trying to get rid of
> framemaker and all the different image/file conversions....esentilly
> smooth out the process.

Unfortunately this is one of the areas that HTML really falls down on in
terms of control over rendering. If you're looking at it from a "Semantic
Web" point of view it's not something you'd want to do. :)

Outside of the <multicol> solution you're going to keep running into the
variable font size/face issue you originally inquired about. The only way
I can think of to get reasonably consistent results is setting face & size
to some fixed-width font with a style sheet and then doing your column
division based on character count. As soon as somebody overrides your
settings the design will get messed up, but that'll be true for any of the
non-multicol solutions. This should be pretty easy to implement in Perl.

> Maybe it would be better to dump the text and images to a semi large
> image file im thinking 800 h x 600 w ....problem with this is then
> generating the pdf file.....

If you're using PDF's compression capabilities and you absolutely have to
have DTP style control of layout you're probably better sticking with PDF.

Jonathan Conway


From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan  2 09:20:40 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0012300019080.75462-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101020816070.25829-100000@io.frii.com>

Hi,

After work or weekend works for me, because I'm going to be trying
to get out more this year.  I'm free after 3:30 weekdays.

How 'bout . . . ummm . . . 4 pm Wednesday?  We'll catch some daylight.
And for any weekend-only types, yell, and that'll be my excuse to make
sure I get out on Saturday too.  (Doctor says cholesterol bad; exercise
good.)

Walter



From rise at frii.com  Tue Jan  2 22:47:59 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101020816070.25829-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101022145270.40943-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> How 'bout . . . ummm . . . 4 pm Wednesday?  We'll catch some daylight.
> And for any weekend-only types, yell, and that'll be my excuse to make
> sure I get out on Saturday too.  (Doctor says cholesterol bad; exercise
> good.)

Works for me. Which trailhead do you want to meet at (assuming Mesa
and Weds@4 is ok for everybody interested)? Jim?

Jonathan Conway



From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Tue Jan  2 23:13:51 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101022145270.40943-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCIEDCCEAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

Can't make this Wednesday (or other Wednesdays at 4 PM), for some reason
I've decided to sit in on a class this semester on data mining at CSM :)  It
should be good, but I'll miss the Perl banter.

With guests coming in the end of the week, that pretty much spoils it for
the rest of the week/weekend.  Go enjoy yourselves!

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Jonathan Conway
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:48 PM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?


On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> How 'bout . . . ummm . . . 4 pm Wednesday?  We'll catch some daylight.
> And for any weekend-only types, yell, and that'll be my excuse to make
> sure I get out on Saturday too.  (Doctor says cholesterol bad; exercise
> good.)

Works for me. Which trailhead do you want to meet at (assuming Mesa
and Weds@4 is ok for everybody interested)? Jim?

Jonathan Conway




From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan  3 08:55:20 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCIEDCCEAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101030752420.52011-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Can't make this Wednesday (or other Wednesdays at 4 PM), for some reason
> I've decided to sit in on a class this semester on data mining at CSM :)  It
> should be good, but I'll miss the Perl banter.
>
> With guests coming in the end of the week, that pretty much spoils it for
> the rest of the week/weekend.  Go enjoy yourselves!
>
> - Jim
>
> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:
>
> > How 'bout . . . ummm . . . 4 pm Wednesday?  We'll catch some daylight.
> > And for any weekend-only types, yell, and that'll be my excuse to make
> > sure I get out on Saturday too.  (Doctor says cholesterol bad; exercise
> > good.)
>
> Works for me. Which trailhead do you want to meet at (assuming Mesa
> and Weds@4 is ok for everybody interested)? Jim?
>
> Jonathan Conway

I'll be at the south end of the Mesa Trail at 4 PM today.  See you
then.

Walter


From rise at frii.com  Wed Jan  3 10:43:26 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] another outing of some kind?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101030752420.52011-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101030941370.54160-100000@io.frii.com>

On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> I'll be at the south end of the Mesa Trail at 4 PM today.  See you
> then.

For anyone who wants to randomly show up, lurkers especially, the South
Mesa Trail head is on the north side of Eldorado Springs Drive.

Jonathan


From walter at frii.com  Thu Jan  4 12:05:48 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101041100460.80972-100000@io.frii.com>

Quiet group.

Anyway, I thought I'd try to stir the pot here by posting some code,
which you may or may not find useful.  Here's a small script I wrote that's
basically a wrapper around vi (or $EDITOR), which uses advisory locking
to make sure different people don't overwrite each others work by
editing the same file at the same time.

Walter

#!/opt/bin/perl -w

#    nicevi -- to keep multiple people from editing the same file at
#              the same time.
#    Walter Pienciak <w.pienciak@ieee.org>

use Fcntl qw(:DEFAULT :flock);

if (scalar @ARGV == 0) {
    print "Usage: $0 file1 [file2 file3 ...]\n";
    exit 0;
}

my $LOCKDIR = '/var/tmp';
my $EDITOR  = '/bin/vi';                        #  Default editor.
$EDITOR = $ENV{EDITOR} if ($ENV{EDITOR} ne ''); #  But not everyone likes it.


my $file;
while (scalar @ARGV > 0) {
    $file = shift;

    &file_lock($file);
    system("$EDITOR $file");
    &file_unlock($file);
}

sub file_lock {
    my $f = shift;
    sysopen(LOCKFILE, "$LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f", O_WRONLY | O_CREAT)
        or die "Can't open $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
    flock(LOCKFILE, LOCK_EX|LOCK_NB)            #  Nonblocking lock.
        or die "Can't obtain lock for $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
}

sub file_unlock {
    my $f = shift;
    unlink "$LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f"
        or die "Can't delete $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
    flock(LOCKFILE, LOCK_UN)
        or die "Can't release lock for $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
}

##  Th-th-that's all, folks!


From nagler at bivio.com  Thu Jan  4 22:27:58 2001
From: nagler at bivio.com (Rob Nagler)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
References: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101041100460.80972-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <3A554D4E.3FF87C28@bivio.com>

> basically a wrapper around vi (or $EDITOR), which uses advisory locking

One of things you might consider is making the file read-only during/after
edits.  This way novice users will have to use nicevi to edit and "can't"
accidentally use vi.

Rob

From walter at frii.com  Fri Jan  5 10:52:16 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
In-Reply-To: <3A554D4E.3FF87C28@bivio.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101050939260.6061-100000@io.frii.com>

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Rob Nagler wrote:

> > basically a wrapper around vi (or $EDITOR), which uses advisory locking
>
> One of things you might consider is making the file read-only during/after
> edits.  This way novice users will have to use nicevi to edit and "can't"
> accidentally use vi.
>
> Rob

Hi, Rob,

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'd been considering the minimal solution of
just using a shell alias

    alias vi /opt/bin/nicevi

but building another safeguard into the script is a good idea.

Any other suggestions, comments, criticisms, out there?  We do run CVS,
but that's a pretty heavy solution for some things, and I whacked this
together to give the admins an example of locking code.

Walter


From walter at frii.com  Fri Jan  5 11:21:18 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
In-Reply-To: <3A55FE5C.CD4A461@bivio.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101051015330.6572-100000@io.frii.com>

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Martin Lichtin wrote:

> > Any other suggestions, comments, criticisms, out there?  We do run CVS,
> > but that's a pretty heavy solution for some things, and I whacked this
> > together to give the admins an example of locking code.
>
> Is the locking working over NFS or similar network file systems?
> Not sure if that's an issue in your case.

Hi, Martin,

Not an issue for us.  Local system users only.  The only brand of
NFS we'd use would be CFS (cryptographic file system), but since that
would be for a single user only, I wouldn't guess that locking would be
an issue.  (Of course, we all have really bad days . . . ;^)

This code is actually a really fine example of "things that can go wrong
when your fingers are faster than your brain", now that I look at it.
As example locking code, it's okay; as a production locking mechanism,
it's wholly inadequate.

Walter


From walter at frii.com  Mon Jan  8 16:20:49 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101051015330.6572-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101081518090.31155-100000@io.frii.com>

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> This code is actually a really fine example of "things that can go wrong
> when your fingers are faster than your brain", now that I look at it.
> As example locking code, it's okay; as a production locking mechanism,
> it's wholly inadequate.

Is anyone interested in picking this code apart on the list?
I can see 2 things wrong with it.

Or is this a stoopid boring game?

Walter


From jmaslak at mindspring.com  Mon Jan  8 17:23:15 2001
From: jmaslak at mindspring.com (Joel Maslak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] advisory locking
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081620020.14485-100000@bigsky.antelope.net>


Appologizes if this is a dupe.  I sent it from the wrong account and the
anti-spam stuff will probably kill the other one.

Walter asked for volunteers to pick through the code, so I volunteered...  
I'd love to know what I missed!  Thanks for giving us the opportunity,
Walter, to pick on your code so that we might all learn a little bit.

I'll give my thoughts on the code.  I'm not going to cut any of it except
the preamble stuff so that there is sufficiant context.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> my $LOCKDIR = '/var/tmp';
> my $EDITOR  = '/bin/vi';                        #  Default editor.
> $EDITOR = $ENV{EDITOR} if ($ENV{EDITOR} ne ''); #  But not everyone likes it.

Should also check $ENV{VISUAL}...

> my $file;
> while (scalar @ARGV > 0) {
>     $file = shift;

The more "perlish" way (if there is one with TMTOWTDI):
foreach $file (@ARGV) {
	file_lock($file);
	...

 
>     &file_lock($file);

Note that the "&" is unnecessary on function calls when you enclose the
parameters in parentheses.  This is a style issue, though, and not a bug
or problem in the code.

>     system("$EDITOR $file");

What if the filename of the editor or the file being edited has a space in
it?  This will fail if it does.  I would replace this with:
	system($EDITOR, $file);

I would also check the return value of the editor and use it to deterime
the return value of your program (if all edits returned 0, return 0;
otherwise, return some error value).  That way, if it is called by yet
another program, and the editor dies for some reason, then the calling
program will know that the edit might need to be handled specially.

>     &file_unlock($file);
> }
>
> sub file_lock {
>     my $f = shift;
>     sysopen(LOCKFILE, "$LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f", O_WRONLY | O_CREAT)
>         or die "Can't open $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";

This is a problem.  Let's say that I try to "newvi /etc/hosts".  Unless
LOCK_ is a directory and LOCK_/etc is also one, this will fail.

>     flock(LOCKFILE, LOCK_EX|LOCK_NB)            #  Nonblocking lock.
>         or die "Can't obtain lock for $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
> }

This lets someone "lock" a file that they can't even really edit.  That
might not be what you want.

Of course I must ask, why not just lock the file you are editing
directly?  I'm assuming that there is a reason for creating the lock file
 -- I just don't see it.

> sub file_unlock {
>     my $f = shift;
>     unlink "$LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f"
>         or die "Can't delete $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
>     flock(LOCKFILE, LOCK_UN)
>         or die "Can't release lock for $LOCKDIR/LOCK_$f: $!";
> }

You should probably close LOCKFILE, too.

> ##  Th-th-that's all, folks!

-- 
Joel








From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan  9 20:17:02 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101091903130.67354-100000@io.frii.com>

Hi,

I got a UPS package tonight from a nice editor at Addison Wesley.

Would anyone like to review "Network Programming with Perl" by
Lincoln Stein?  Here are the chapters:

1   Input/Output Basics
2   Processes, Pipes, and Signals
3   Introduction to Berkeley Sockets
4   The TCP Protocol
5   The IO::Socket API
6   FTP and Telnet
7   SMTP:  Sending Mail
8   POP, IMAP, and NNTP:  Processing Mail and Netnews
9   Web Clients
10  Forking Servers and the inetd Daemon
11  Multithreaded Applications
12  Multiplexed Applications
13  Nonblocking I/O
14  Bulletproofing Servers
15  Preforking and Prethreading
16  IO::Poll
17  TCP Urgent Data
18  The UDP Protocol
19  UDP Servers
20  Broadcasting
21  Multicasting
22  UNIX-Domain Sockets

The book looks pretty nice.  Lincoln has a reputation for writing
clear examples, and even aside from all that, it's typeset well.
But enough of that.  Anyone with a decent background in the above
stuff want to give this thing a gander and report back to the group?

Walter


From jsimoni at totalsite.com  Tue Jan  9 22:16:06 2001
From: jsimoni at totalsite.com (Justin Simoni)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101091903130.67354-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <B6813016.2664%jsimoni@totalsite.com>

I'll give it a whack, if you'd like  -
Since this is my first post -

Hi I'm justin, I'm 19 and I have green hair.
I also write Perl for a living. I'm the major (ok, ok, only) force behind an
open souce, mailing list manager, Mojo Mail:

http://mojo.skazat.com

written (of course) entirely in Perl.
i actualy just got through reading 'effective Perl Programming', also from
Addison Wesley and I'm presently tearing apart and puttng back together
lincoln's user_manager, its a Apacher group/password/realm manager, I've
worked much with Web apps, Forking, yadda yadda aka I'm a big old nerd.

if not, i wouldn't mind borrowing it :)


if anyone is interested, I am releasing a new beta of Mojo Mail tonight,
there is a developers list:

http://mojo.skazat.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?list=mojo_mailers&flavor=subscr
ibe

(pardon the wack wrap)






On 1/9/01 7:17 PM, "Walter Pienciak" <walter@frii.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I got a UPS package tonight from a nice editor at Addison Wesley.
> 
> Would anyone like to review "Network Programming with Perl" by
> Lincoln Stein?  Here are the chapters:
> 
> 1   Input/Output Basics
> 2   Processes, Pipes, and Signals
> 3   Introduction to Berkeley Sockets
> 4   The TCP Protocol
> 5   The IO::Socket API
> 6   FTP and Telnet
> 7   SMTP:  Sending Mail
> 8   POP, IMAP, and NNTP:  Processing Mail and Netnews
> 9   Web Clients
> 10  Forking Servers and the inetd Daemon
> 11  Multithreaded Applications
> 12  Multiplexed Applications
> 13  Nonblocking I/O
> 14  Bulletproofing Servers
> 15  Preforking and Prethreading
> 16  IO::Poll
> 17  TCP Urgent Data
> 18  The UDP Protocol
> 19  UDP Servers
> 20  Broadcasting
> 21  Multicasting
> 22  UNIX-Domain Sockets
> 
> The book looks pretty nice.  Lincoln has a reputation for writing
> clear examples, and even aside from all that, it's typeset well.
> But enough of that.  Anyone with a decent background in the above
> stuff want to give this thing a gander and report back to the group?
> 
> Walter
> 
> 


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 10:57:52 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
In-Reply-To: <B6813016.2664%jsimoni@totalsite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100945430.84413-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Justin Simoni wrote:

> I'll give it a whack, if you'd like  -
> Since this is my first post -
>
> Hi I'm justin, I'm 19 and I have green hair.
> I also write Perl for a living. I'm the major (ok, ok, only) force behind an
> open souce, mailing list manager, Mojo Mail:
>
> http://mojo.skazat.com
>
> written (of course) entirely in Perl.
> i actualy just got through reading 'effective Perl Programming', also from
> Addison Wesley and I'm presently tearing apart and puttng back together
> lincoln's user_manager, its a Apacher group/password/realm manager, I've
> worked much with Web apps, Forking, yadda yadda aka I'm a big old nerd.
>
> if not, i wouldn't mind borrowing it :)
>
>
> if anyone is interested, I am releasing a new beta of Mojo Mail tonight,
> there is a developers list:
>
> http://mojo.skazat.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?list=mojo_mailers&flavor=subscr
> ibe
>
> (pardon the wack wrap)

Hi, Justin,

I'm Walter, I'm 42, and I have less hair every day.  ;^)

I'm looking at your page on features, and it looks pretty nice, but tell
me:  you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).

And a general announcement regarding the Stein book:  since I posted
about it last night, I'm waiting 24 hours to give everyone, no matter
what their weird hours may be, a chance for Fame and Fortune (well, a
free book at least).

Walter


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 10:58:41 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Ruby programmers?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100957560.84413-100000@io.frii.com>

Is anyone doing any programming in Ruby?

Walter


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 11:48:07 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] "nonmember bounces"
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101045350.84413-100000@io.frii.com>

I've tried to set the config so that majordomo will NOT bounce
submissions from nonmember addresses, since so many of us have several.

But the admins at pm.org have this set so that the systemic setting
for this -- BOUNCE! -- can't be overridden.

My apologies:  I see (from bounces) that this is inconvenient for several
posters.

Walter


From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Wed Jan 10 12:26:59 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] "nonmember bounces"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101045350.84413-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEHCCEAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

It appears that we have a feature request for Justin :)

I don't know about the breadth of competitors in the majordomo market, but
the last time I looked, majordomo is written to Perl 4.  So it's a bit on
the ungainly, monolithic side, as anything full featured would have to be.
It would be nice if policy settings could be delegated from pm.org to
specific groups like boulder.pm.org, so we can enjoy local autonomy both in
the real world (preferences like hiking vs. scotch sipping) and in the
virtual one.  Maybe this can be done in majordomo, but I suspect that it's
not easy, or is not too robust/secure, or this would be currently done.

Now I will send this email from the account registered with majordomo :)

- Jim



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Walter Pienciak
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:48 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: [boulder.pm] "nonmember bounces"


I've tried to set the config so that majordomo will NOT bounce
submissions from nonmember addresses, since so many of us have several.

But the admins at pm.org have this set so that the systemic setting
for this -- BOUNCE! -- can't be overridden.

My apologies:  I see (from bounces) that this is inconvenient for several
posters.

Walter



From rise at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 12:25:34 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Ruby programmers?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100957560.84413-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101110210.91567-100000@io.frii.com>

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> Is anyone doing any programming in Ruby?

You should have mentioned something on the hike...

I picked up "Programming Ruby" a few weeks back and I've been playing
around with it when I want to take a break . I like the clean syntax,
coroutines, iterators, the more OO nature of the language (by comparison
with Perl), decent multithreading, neat little tricks like if and unless
expressions returning their result, a simple but useful exception
mechanism, Safe levels, and that it looks and feels a lot like Perl. There
are a few things that really get on my nerves: 0 and the empty string are
true, the scoping rules are counterintuitive in some places, and the
advantages you get from choosing an OO model for the language come at the
expense of making it harder to implement a different model in it.

Jonathan


From jsimoni at totalsite.com  Wed Jan 10 12:55:49 2001
From: jsimoni at totalsite.com (Justin Simoni)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100945430.84413-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <B681FE45.2694%jsimoni@totalsite.com>


> I'm Walter, I'm 42, and I have less hair every day.  ;^)

hello Walter, actualy, now my hair is green, and kinda dirty  blind, I have
to redie it, or people will start to think I'm a perl street bum and give me
change.Which I'll take anyways,

> you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
> folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
> or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).

i was an owner of a few majordomo lists, and not a happy person about it.
Every time a mailing would get out, I (as the owner) would be deluged with
bounced, arrgh.  Also, the site was a youth-oriented skateboard site, so the
visitors would have trouble with the directions. I'm a very visual person,
and majordomos email interface was somewhat clunky,

subscribe [password] <thislist> "email address"

i never got the hang of it, and being the lazy person I am, wrote my own
little MLM :) Mojo is more oriented to regular people, its all web-based,
all visual, 'Mac-Like' in its simplicity, but roaring with features (now
anyways). The 2.4 release is a major overhaul of its archiving system,
(which, is still very simple)  and includes full smtp support.

Lists take a minute to make, you give the password, enter a List Name, a
list owner e-mail address, and the list is made! plunk in all your favorite
friends and *click* you have a list. Mojo takes care of automatically
message archiving, keeping the list clean, what have you.

But mostly, mojo was a change for me to experiment with Perl and learn it.
If you go through the source code of each release, you'll see what I
probably learned in that time period, (the flavor of the week) early
versions showed that I could create  a somewhat large script without strict
:) the next version showed I could rewrite a totally fumbled script using
strict() , another version might show how I learned how to create modules,
link them up, use them with 'use' 'require'., make OO modules, Use CGI html
shortcuts, yadda yadda yadda.

The design of the program, the html you'll actually see, is just as
important as the junk that somehow makes it work, How do I make an
incredibly difficult task easy for the user? example? How do I send my
message to 50,000 people using the Bulkmail module as the sender. Well, in
your contro panel, go to sending options and click 'Use SMTP' all the
functions are like that.  What's the point of a program if you can't use it?

I released it as open source, just to share, and after a while, I got a
following, One time I was testing a beta and screwed up a /few/ test
sendings, what happened? My entire announce list of about 350 got about 10
weird test messages that didn't amke any sense. Did everyone unsubscribe
from the list? NO! I worte an apology and about a quarter of the list wrote
back saying 'no problem happens all the time with me'

Also, I didn't know about Majordomo2, but it still looks like a pain to
install, and way to complex for me. Mailman looks very elegant,  really like
the user page for every susbscriber.

and finally, I heard it got the chicks, anyone have luck with that?

I still see myself as not a beginning Perl hacker, but one rung up, there's
probably code in there that anyone else on this list will wince at. its all
a learning experiance.

justin 



 







> 
> I'm looking at your page on features, and it looks pretty nice, but tell
> me:  you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
> folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
> or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).
> 
> And a general announcement regarding the Stein book:  since I posted
> about it last night, I'm waiting 24 hours to give everyone, no matter
> what their weird hours may be, a chance for Fame and Fortune (well, a
> free book at least).
> 
> Walter
> 
> 


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 12:57:13 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] BOUNCE boulder-pm-list@pm.org:    Non-member submission from [Evelyn
 Mitchell <efm@tummy.com>] (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101156590.84413-100000@io.frii.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:42:10 -0500 (EST)
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
To: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
Subject: BOUNCE boulder-pm-list@pm.org:    Non-member submission from
    [Evelyn Mitchell <efm@tummy.com>]

>From walter@frii.com  Wed Jan 10 12:42:08 2001
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From: Evelyn Mitchell <efm@tummy.com>
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] Ruby programmers?
Message-ID: <20010110104330.A8522@tummy.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100957560.84413-100000@io.frii.com>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101100957560.84413-100000@io.frii.com>; from walter@frii.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:58:41AM -0700

A friend from NCLUG was raving/ranting about Ruby last night.
The only thing he could come up with which was neat was the
way it handles iterators. After much back-and-forth from the
local Python guru (jafo) and the local Perl guru (tkil) it was
decided that Ruby implemented 'map'.

I've briefly looked at it, but couldn't see much improvement
over Python.

Evelyn Mitchell
efm@tummy.com
On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:58:41AM -0700, Walter Pienciak wrote:
> Is anyone doing any programming in Ruby?
>
> Walter
>


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 10 12:59:11 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] BOUNCE boulder-pm-list@pm.org:    Non-member submission from ["J.
 Wayde Allen" <wallen@its.bldrdoc.gov>] (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101158070.84413-100000@io.frii.com>

Hi, Wayde,

I'm sorry; I wasn't being clear.  The admins at pm.org have
configured their majordomo so that this is NOT a configurable
option for any of the lists run off their server.

Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:54:09 -0500 (EST)
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
To: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
Subject: BOUNCE boulder-pm-list@pm.org:    Non-member submission from ["J.
    Wayde Allen" <wallen@its.bldrdoc.gov>]

>From walter@frii.com  Wed Jan 10 13:54:08 2001
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:53:29 -0700 (MST)
From: "J. Wayde Allen" <wallen@its.bldrdoc.gov>
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] "nonmember bounces"
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEHCCEAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> It appears that we have a feature request for Justin :)
>
> I don't know about the breadth of competitors in the majordomo market, but
> the last time I looked, majordomo is written to Perl 4.  So it's a bit on
> the ungainly, monolithic side, as anything full featured would have to be.
> It would be nice if policy settings could be delegated from pm.org to
> specific groups like boulder.pm.org, so we can enjoy local autonomy both in
> the real world (preferences like hiking vs. scotch sipping) and in the
> virtual one.  Maybe this can be done in majordomo, but I suspect that it's
> not easy, or is not too robust/secure, or this would be currently done.

I ran the BLUG lists as well as several others using majordomo for many
years.  What you are talking about doing is actually possible and
relatively easy and straight forward.  The list administrator simply
e-mails the server command address (same address you subscribe at) with
the message:

    config list_name list_password

He is then sent back a text config file that describes his current list
settings.  These can be modified and then sent back to the list server as:

   newconfig list_name list_password
   The new config file text here ...

That's all there is to it!  The shortcomings of majordomo lie in its lack
of built-in support for digests (Digests ARE possible, you just have to
create a separate digest list), difficulty in approving bounces without
ending up with the administrators address attached, a nice web
front-end, and archiving.

Mailman does the digests, has a nice web front-end, has a decent mechanism
for approving bounced posts, and does archives.  However, it would be nice
if there was a way to do regular expression searches on the subscriber
database to locate bad addresses.  Of course, since Mailman is written
using Python that could be an issue on this list <BIG GRIN>.

- Wayde
  (wallen@its.bldrdoc.gov)


From jeff at planetoid.net  Wed Jan 10 13:23:48 2001
From: jeff at planetoid.net (jeff saenz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
References: <B681FE45.2694%jsimoni@totalsite.com>
Message-ID: <3A5CB6C4.B1ABC741@planetoid.net>

Justin

Does the system include any kind of bounce handling/mgmt? I saw a module in
majordomo2 that can be plugged in to provide automatic bouncing.

jeff

Justin Simoni wrote:

> > I'm Walter, I'm 42, and I have less hair every day.  ;^)
>
> hello Walter, actualy, now my hair is green, and kinda dirty  blind, I have
> to redie it, or people will start to think I'm a perl street bum and give me
> change.Which I'll take anyways,
>
> > you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
> > folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
> > or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).
>
> i was an owner of a few majordomo lists, and not a happy person about it.
> Every time a mailing would get out, I (as the owner) would be deluged with
> bounced, arrgh.  Also, the site was a youth-oriented skateboard site, so the
> visitors would have trouble with the directions. I'm a very visual person,
> and majordomos email interface was somewhat clunky,
>
> subscribe [password] <thislist> "email address"
>
> i never got the hang of it, and being the lazy person I am, wrote my own
> little MLM :) Mojo is more oriented to regular people, its all web-based,
> all visual, 'Mac-Like' in its simplicity, but roaring with features (now
> anyways). The 2.4 release is a major overhaul of its archiving system,
> (which, is still very simple)  and includes full smtp support.
>
> Lists take a minute to make, you give the password, enter a List Name, a
> list owner e-mail address, and the list is made! plunk in all your favorite
> friends and *click* you have a list. Mojo takes care of automatically
> message archiving, keeping the list clean, what have you.
>
> But mostly, mojo was a change for me to experiment with Perl and learn it.
> If you go through the source code of each release, you'll see what I
> probably learned in that time period, (the flavor of the week) early
> versions showed that I could create  a somewhat large script without strict
> :) the next version showed I could rewrite a totally fumbled script using
> strict() , another version might show how I learned how to create modules,
> link them up, use them with 'use' 'require'., make OO modules, Use CGI html
> shortcuts, yadda yadda yadda.
>
> The design of the program, the html you'll actually see, is just as
> important as the junk that somehow makes it work, How do I make an
> incredibly difficult task easy for the user? example? How do I send my
> message to 50,000 people using the Bulkmail module as the sender. Well, in
> your contro panel, go to sending options and click 'Use SMTP' all the
> functions are like that.  What's the point of a program if you can't use it?
>
> I released it as open source, just to share, and after a while, I got a
> following, One time I was testing a beta and screwed up a /few/ test
> sendings, what happened? My entire announce list of about 350 got about 10
> weird test messages that didn't amke any sense. Did everyone unsubscribe
> from the list? NO! I worte an apology and about a quarter of the list wrote
> back saying 'no problem happens all the time with me'
>
> Also, I didn't know about Majordomo2, but it still looks like a pain to
> install, and way to complex for me. Mailman looks very elegant,  really like
> the user page for every susbscriber.
>
> and finally, I heard it got the chicks, anyone have luck with that?
>
> I still see myself as not a beginning Perl hacker, but one rung up, there's
> probably code in there that anyone else on this list will wince at. its all
> a learning experiance.
>
> justin
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm looking at your page on features, and it looks pretty nice, but tell
> > me:  you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
> > folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
> > or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).
> >
> > And a general announcement regarding the Stein book:  since I posted
> > about it last night, I'm waiting 24 hours to give everyone, no matter
> > what their weird hours may be, a chance for Fame and Fortune (well, a
> > free book at least).
> >
> > Walter
> >
> >


From jsimoni at totalsite.com  Wed Jan 10 15:11:09 2001
From: jsimoni at totalsite.com (Total Site)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
In-Reply-To: <3A5CB6C4.B1ABC741@planetoid.net>
Message-ID: <B6821DFD.230%jsimoni@totalsite.com>

> Does the system include any kind of bounce handling/mgmt? I saw a module in
> majordomo2 that can be plugged in to provide automatic bouncing.

something like that can certainly be made for Mojo, but I've been focusing
development on things that everyone can use, and not everyone knows even how
to make a mail alias (or is allowed to) 'you don''t need any special
privileges for mojo. Everything in the program is quite seperated, theres
mailing, archiving, html generating, configuration, password modules for all
of mojo. one of these days I'll get bounce handling working, although not
any time soon :) 



on 1/10/01 12:23 PM, jeff saenz at jeff@planetoid.net wrote:

> Justin
> 
> Does the system include any kind of bounce handling/mgmt? I saw a module in
> majordomo2 that can be plugged in to provide automatic bouncing.
> 
> jeff
> 
> Justin Simoni wrote:
> 
>>> I'm Walter, I'm 42, and I have less hair every day.  ;^)
>> 
>> hello Walter, actualy, now my hair is green, and kinda dirty  blind, I have
>> to redie it, or people will start to think I'm a perl street bum and give me
>> change.Which I'll take anyways,
>> 
>>> you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
>>> folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
>>> or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).
>> 
>> i was an owner of a few majordomo lists, and not a happy person about it.
>> Every time a mailing would get out, I (as the owner) would be deluged with
>> bounced, arrgh.  Also, the site was a youth-oriented skateboard site, so the
>> visitors would have trouble with the directions. I'm a very visual person,
>> and majordomos email interface was somewhat clunky,
>> 
>> subscribe [password] <thislist> "email address"
>> 
>> i never got the hang of it, and being the lazy person I am, wrote my own
>> little MLM :) Mojo is more oriented to regular people, its all web-based,
>> all visual, 'Mac-Like' in its simplicity, but roaring with features (now
>> anyways). The 2.4 release is a major overhaul of its archiving system,
>> (which, is still very simple)  and includes full smtp support.
>> 
>> Lists take a minute to make, you give the password, enter a List Name, a
>> list owner e-mail address, and the list is made! plunk in all your favorite
>> friends and *click* you have a list. Mojo takes care of automatically
>> message archiving, keeping the list clean, what have you.
>> 
>> But mostly, mojo was a change for me to experiment with Perl and learn it.
>> If you go through the source code of each release, you'll see what I
>> probably learned in that time period, (the flavor of the week) early
>> versions showed that I could create  a somewhat large script without strict
>> :) the next version showed I could rewrite a totally fumbled script using
>> strict() , another version might show how I learned how to create modules,
>> link them up, use them with 'use' 'require'., make OO modules, Use CGI html
>> shortcuts, yadda yadda yadda.
>> 
>> The design of the program, the html you'll actually see, is just as
>> important as the junk that somehow makes it work, How do I make an
>> incredibly difficult task easy for the user? example? How do I send my
>> message to 50,000 people using the Bulkmail module as the sender. Well, in
>> your contro panel, go to sending options and click 'Use SMTP' all the
>> functions are like that.  What's the point of a program if you can't use it?
>> 
>> I released it as open source, just to share, and after a while, I got a
>> following, One time I was testing a beta and screwed up a /few/ test
>> sendings, what happened? My entire announce list of about 350 got about 10
>> weird test messages that didn't amke any sense. Did everyone unsubscribe
>> from the list? NO! I worte an apology and about a quarter of the list wrote
>> back saying 'no problem happens all the time with me'
>> 
>> Also, I didn't know about Majordomo2, but it still looks like a pain to
>> install, and way to complex for me. Mailman looks very elegant,  really like
>> the user page for every susbscriber.
>> 
>> and finally, I heard it got the chicks, anyone have luck with that?
>> 
>> I still see myself as not a beginning Perl hacker, but one rung up, there's
>> probably code in there that anyone else on this list will wince at. its all
>> a learning experiance.
>> 
>> justin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm looking at your page on features, and it looks pretty nice, but tell
>>> me:  you undertook this project for a reason, and knowing that might help
>>> folks understand the differences between Mojo Mail and major(domo|cool)
>>> or Mailman.  Do you have a FAQ list or something (I didn't see one).
>>> 
>>> And a general announcement regarding the Stein book:  since I posted
>>> about it last night, I'm waiting 24 hours to give everyone, no matter
>>> what their weird hours may be, a chance for Fame and Fortune (well, a
>>> free book at least).
>>> 
>>> Walter
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 


From wallen at lug.boulder.co.us  Thu Jan 11 12:28:59 2001
From: wallen at lug.boulder.co.us (J. Wayde Allen)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Mailing Lists (majordomo) was "nonmember bounces"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101101158070.84413-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101111122260.4908-100000@wood.its.bldrdoc.gov>

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> I'm sorry; I wasn't being clear.  The admins at pm.org have
> configured their majordomo so that this is NOT a configurable
> option for any of the lists run off their server.

Based on what you were saying I had kind of inferred that.  This isn't
specifically a majordomo issue then.  It has more to do with the system
administration on your list server.  The sysadmin trumps any features of
any list server.

As for the guys trying to create a "user friendly" interface for a mailing
list, I wish them the very best of luck!  While I think this is a very
laudable project, I've never seen an interface that people for some reason
or other either can't or won't use.  For example, to subscribe or
unsubscribe to my Mailman lists a person just needs to go to the web
interface (URL at the bottom of each post), type in their list password,
and click on a button.  It is amazing how many people don't seem to be
able to do that.

- Wayde
  (wallen@lug.boulder.co.us)


From walter at frii.com  Fri Jan 12 07:57:24 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] Stein, "Network Programming With Perl"
In-Reply-To: <B681FE45.2694%jsimoni@totalsite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101120656050.74424-100000@io.frii.com>

Hi,

Several folks volunteered to review the book, and I gave it to
Pete Krawczyk.

Thanks for the responses.  I wish I had more to give out.

Walter



From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan 16 14:29:44 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] RFC on encryption approachwq
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161316250.97578-100000@io.frii.com>

I'm looking for feedback/ideas on the following problem:

I'm building an external web app that
   1) takes in some sensitive data (e.g., credit card number)
   2) may NOT use any realtime processing of that data
   3) talks to a machine, inside a firewall, requiring that data.

Some of the time, I have to assume, that network connection will
be down.  So the data needs to be stored on the outside machine
until the connection can be made and the data pulled in.

Obviously, this means encryption.

I'd prefer to use something simple but strong like Crypt::Blowfish,
but it is based on a shared secret:  process A on the outside server
uses $key to encrypt the data and process B on the inside machine
uses $key to decrypt it.

The "issue" is that if the outside server was hacked, $key could
be used to decrypt the data (if it was still on the machine).

Am I being totally paranoid, pedantic, and this worry is complete
overkill?  Or should I ought to look at the PGP/GPG approach, and
the outside server has the "public key", while only the inside machine,
which would pull the data, would have the "private key"?

Walter


From kmoore at trustamerica.com  Tue Jan 16 14:55:06 2001
From: kmoore at trustamerica.com (Kyle Moore)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] RFC on encryption approachwq
References: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161316250.97578-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <3A64B52A.AC7A73C4@trustamerica.com>

I don't think you can be too paranoid very often. PGP/GPG or something
like that sounds like a good approach. Let us know what you end up
with...I'm interested in this one.

-kyle

Walter Pienciak wrote:
> 
> Am I being totally paranoid, pedantic, and this worry is complete
> overkill?  Or should I ought to look at the PGP/GPG approach, and
> the outside server has the "public key", while only the inside machine,
> which would pull the data, would have the "private key"?
> 
> Walter

From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan 16 17:44:40 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:27 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] forwarding a "nonmember" bounce from Joel
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161643290.2418-100000@io.frii.com>

From: Joel Maslak <jmaslak@antelope.net>
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] RFC on encryption approachwq
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161316250.97578-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101161402210.12316-100000@bigsky.antelope.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> Obviously, this means encryption.

Only if you use public/private key encryption.  If the encryption key can
decrypt the data, then it is NOT secure - period.  The reason is that if
the encryption key can decrypt the data, an attacker can grab BOTH the key
and the data.

Here's what I'd do:

On the public system:
PUBLIC Key
Encrypted Data File   (watch out for swap space and temporary files!)

It sends the file through some trusted means to the private system.  On
the private system:
PRIVATE Key
Decrypted data

I hope this helps.  As for which encryption routine, any asymetrical
algorithm should work.  PGP would certainly work.  I would also sign the
data with a private key stored on the public system (different from the
internal system's private key) so that the internal system can verify that
the right machine sent the data.

-- 
Joel Maslak


From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan 16 17:45:13 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] forwarding a "nonmember" bounce from Jake
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161644450.2418-100000@io.frii.com>

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:56:38 -0700
From: Jake Edge <jake@edge2.net>
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] RFC on encryption approachwq
Message-ID: <20010116145638.A18212@magpie.indstorage.com>
Reply-To: jake@edge2.net
References: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101161316250.97578-100000@io.frii.com> <3A64B52A.AC7A73C4@trustamerica.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
In-Reply-To: <3A64B52A.AC7A73C4@trustamerica.com>; from kmoore@trustamerica.com on Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 01:55:06PM -0700
X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17

> > Am I being totally paranoid, pedantic, and this worry is complete
> > overkill?  Or should I ought to look at the PGP/GPG approach, and
> > the outside server has the "public key", while only the inside machine,
> > which would pull the data, would have the "private key"?

I think public key encryption might be best (which is what PGP/GPG use).
If the inside machine has a public key, anyone can know it (including the
black hats), but only the inside machine that has the corresponding private
key can decrypt messages that have been encrypted using the public key
(assuming that very large numbers are very hard to factor).  With PGP/GPG,
only the session key gets encrypted using the public key mechanism and that
session key is used for a faster (like Blowfish or 3DES or Rijndael)
shared secret encryption.  I haven't looked, but I would be surprised if
there aren't some CPAN modules to handle public key encryption stuff ...

I certainly don't think you are worrying too much ...

jake


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 17 13:19:51 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] RFC on encryption approach
In-Reply-To: <3A64B52A.AC7A73C4@trustamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101171213420.25826-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kyle Moore wrote:

> I don't think you can be too paranoid very often. PGP/GPG or something
> like that sounds like a good approach. Let us know what you end up
> with...I'm interested in this one.
>
> -kyle
>
> Walter Pienciak wrote:
> >
> > Am I being totally paranoid, pedantic, and this worry is complete
> > overkill?  Or should I ought to look at the PGP/GPG approach, and
> > the outside server has the "public key", while only the inside machine,
> > which would pull the data, would have the "private key"?
> >
> > Walter

Yeah,

I guess there's the "right" way to do it and the "expedient"
way to do it.

Going with a shared-secret cryptosystem, it's not much more
complicated than

use Crypt::Blowfish;
my $cipher = new Crypt::Blowfish $key;
my $ciphertext = $cipher->encrypt($plaintext);

to encrypt and

use Crypt::Blowfish;
my $cipher = new Crypt::Blowfish $key;
my $plaintext = $cipher->decrypt($ciphertext);

to decrypt.  But a public-key model requires, for example, gnupg,
which requires a good source of entropy (i.e., /dev/random, which
Solaris does not have), so I install that . . . , user symlinks to
/somewhere/entropy, key setup, yada yada yada, etc.  More work.
Well, I guess I shouldn't bitch.  It's interesting and better architected.

So gnupg and egd (Entropy Gathering Daemon) are now on my development
machine.  Stay tuned . . .

By the way, I haven't forgotten about the lock/nicevi thing; people
made great comments, and sooner or later I'll get back to that --
but that's "fun" stuff without a looming deadline . . .

Walter "crypto boy"


From jsimoni at totalsite.com  Wed Jan 17 18:43:31 2001
From: jsimoni at totalsite.com (Justin Simoni)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen 
Message-ID: <B68B8A42.30B%jsimoni@totalsite.com>

I'm going to ask a stupid question, but its been said that there aren't any
stupid questions, just stupid people,

Then again, there's something that says philosophers create proverbs, fools
repeat them, 


saying that, 

what is the difference between the two built in Perl functions, open() and
sysopen() in terms of performance, cross platform usage, etc? To my
knowledge, open() is Perl's own way of opening thingies, and sysopen() is
straight from a C library. I know (think) also that sysopen() allows me to
use default permissions to a file, like this:

sysopen(LIST, "$path/$file_name", O_RDWR|O_CREAT, $file_chmod)or die
"couldn't open $path/$file_name for reading: $!\n";

I think I started sysopen on a project when I thought open() wouldn't work.
I think that the problem lay elsewhere, but I still have sysopen() peppered
in the program. any thoughts on these two functions? My program only runs on
*nix, although I would like to see NT supported with as little effort as
possible from me. 

Any help would be super appreciated,

thanks, 

Justin 





From jeff at planetoid.net  Wed Jan 17 19:22:07 2001
From: jeff at planetoid.net (jeff saenz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen
References: <B68B8A42.30B%jsimoni@totalsite.com>
Message-ID: <3A66453E.AD10A51C@planetoid.net>

i saw an example  in the perl tutorial on flocking that implied you should use
sysopen in combo with flock to write to a locked file.

but I saw another example in the flock reference that used open...

Justin Simoni wrote:

> I'm going to ask a stupid question, but its been said that there aren't any
> stupid questions, just stupid people,
>
> Then again, there's something that says philosophers create proverbs, fools
> repeat them,
>
> saying that,
>
> what is the difference between the two built in Perl functions, open() and
> sysopen() in terms of performance, cross platform usage, etc? To my
> knowledge, open() is Perl's own way of opening thingies, and sysopen() is
> straight from a C library. I know (think) also that sysopen() allows me to
> use default permissions to a file, like this:
>
> sysopen(LIST, "$path/$file_name", O_RDWR|O_CREAT, $file_chmod)or die
> "couldn't open $path/$file_name for reading: $!\n";
>
> I think I started sysopen on a project when I thought open() wouldn't work.
> I think that the problem lay elsewhere, but I still have sysopen() peppered
> in the program. any thoughts on these two functions? My program only runs on
> *nix, although I would like to see NT supported with as little effort as
> possible from me.
>
> Any help would be super appreciated,
>
> thanks,
>
> Justin


From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 17 20:39:50 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen
In-Reply-To: <3A66453E.AD10A51C@planetoid.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101171909070.34416-100000@io.frii.com>

On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, jeff saenz wrote:

> i saw an example  in the perl tutorial on flocking that implied you should use
> sysopen in combo with flock to write to a locked file.
>
> but I saw another example in the flock reference that used open...

> Justin Simoni wrote:
>
> > I'm going to ask a stupid question, but its been said that there aren't any
> > stupid questions, just stupid people,
> >
> > Then again, there's something that says philosophers create proverbs, fools
> > repeat them,
> >
> > saying that,
> >
> > what is the difference between the two built in Perl functions, open() and
> > sysopen() in terms of performance, cross platform usage, etc? To my
> > knowledge, open() is Perl's own way of opening thingies, and sysopen() is
> > straight from a C library. I know (think) also that sysopen() allows me to
> > use default permissions to a file, like this:
> >
> > sysopen(LIST, "$path/$file_name", O_RDWR|O_CREAT, $file_chmod)or die
> > "couldn't open $path/$file_name for reading: $!\n";
> >
> > I think I started sysopen on a project when I thought open() wouldn't work.
> > I think that the problem lay elsewhere, but I still have sysopen() peppered
> > in the program. any thoughts on these two functions? My program only runs on
> > *nix, although I would like to see NT supported with as little effort as
> > possible from me.
> >
> > Any help would be super appreciated,
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Justin

It turns out that locking a file for writing without leaving a
race-condition problem is more difficult than expected, and from year
to year I've noticed the "right" advice changing.  The latest I've seen
is what I had in the nicevi code:

sysopen(LAUNCH_CODES, "$f", O_WRONLY | O_CREAT) or die "Urk!  $!";
flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_EX|LOCK_NB) or die "Aah! $!";

# doodle doodle doodle

flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_UN) or die "Yarrgh! $!";
close(LAUNCH_CODES);


In the above code, you don't need the |LOCK_NB
but the flock call will block (the program will hang) until
the exclusive lock is obtained if you do that.  Personally,
I don't.

I don't pretend to understand the minutiae of why exactly that
sequence of function calls and flags does the job, but I do trust
that Tom Christiansen (I got the above code in a LISA tutorial) has
a better understanding of it than I do.  So, yes, it's a bit of
cargo-cult programming.

The (new? I never noticed it before 5.6.0) perlopentut manpage
covers the open/sysopen thing in more detail than most people want.
Basically, sysopen gives you more granularity, but once the file
is open, it's open -- you don't need to use sysread just because
you used sysopen, for example.  If cross-platform compatibility is
an issue, be aware that nonstandard flags can be passed to sysopen,
and they'll work on your development machine but bomb on platform X.
Check out your fcntl manpages for details on your flag options.
(In my manpages, fnctl(2) isn't it, but fnctl(5) is.)

Walter



From walter at frii.com  Thu Jan 18 11:43:22 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101171909070.34416-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101181042560.52758-100000@io.frii.com>

> (In my manpages, fnctl(2) isn't it, but fnctl(5) is.)

Uh, make that fcntl.  (file control)

Walter



From jeff at planetoid.net  Thu Jan 18 14:50:12 2001
From: jeff at planetoid.net (jeff)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen
References: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101171909070.34416-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <3A675703.8624893D@planetoid.net>

is the lisa tutorial available to the public.

> It turns out that locking a file for writing without leaving a
> race-condition problem is more difficult than expected, and from year
> to year I've noticed the "right" advice changing.  The latest I've seen
> is what I had in the nicevi code:
>
> sysopen(LAUNCH_CODES, "$f", O_WRONLY | O_CREAT) or die "Urk!  $!";
> flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_EX|LOCK_NB) or die "Aah! $!";
>
> # doodle doodle doodle
>
> flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_UN) or die "Yarrgh! $!";
> close(LAUNCH_CODES);
>
> In the above code, you don't need the |LOCK_NB
> but the flock call will block (the program will hang) until
> the exclusive lock is obtained if you do that.  Personally,
> I don't.
>
> I don't pretend to understand the minutiae of why exactly that
> sequence of function calls and flags does the job, but I do trust
> that Tom Christiansen (I got the above code in a LISA tutorial) has
> a better understanding of it than I do.  So, yes, it's a bit of
> cargo-cult programming.
>

--
T_r_i_k_M_e_d_i_a
http://www.trikmedia.com




From walter at frii.com  Thu Jan 18 15:17:46 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] open vs. sysopen
In-Reply-To: <3A675703.8624893D@planetoid.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101181412001.57377-100000@io.frii.com>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, jeff wrote:

> is the lisa tutorial available to the public.
>
> > It turns out that locking a file for writing without leaving a
> > race-condition problem is more difficult than expected, and from year
> > to year I've noticed the "right" advice changing.  The latest I've seen
> > is what I had in the nicevi code:
> >
> > sysopen(LAUNCH_CODES, "$f", O_WRONLY | O_CREAT) or die "Urk!  $!";
> > flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_EX|LOCK_NB) or die "Aah! $!";
> >
> > # doodle doodle doodle
> >
> > flock(LAUNCH_CODES, LOCK_UN) or die "Yarrgh! $!";
> > close(LAUNCH_CODES);
> >
> > In the above code, you don't need the |LOCK_NB
> > but the flock call will block (the program will hang) until
> > the exclusive lock is obtained if you do that.  Personally,
> > I don't.
> >
> > I don't pretend to understand the minutiae of why exactly that
> > sequence of function calls and flags does the job, but I do trust
> > that Tom Christiansen (I got the above code in a LISA tutorial) has
> > a better understanding of it than I do.  So, yes, it's a bit of
> > cargo-cult programming.
> >
>
> --
> T_r_i_k_M_e_d_i_a
> http://www.trikmedia.com

Sorry, it's copyrighted stuff.  And worthwhile, too, I should add,
if anyone gets the chance to sit in a class someday.  There's a variant
of this code discussed at

http://www.perl.com/pub/doc/manual/html/pod/perlfaq5.html#How_can_I_lock_a_file_

Walter


From walter at frii.com  Thu Jan 25 15:30:48 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101251419410.43261-100000@io.frii.com>

Totally clueless.  She's either quite on the level (and obviously
ill equipped for her job), or she's "sly enough" to try this appeal
-- via SPAM, no less!

I've reformatted the message, to the extent of inserting line breaks
(it was all one line).

"Hi, I suck as a recruiter -- can I be your recruiter?
 I don't know anything about this business, but I won't
 waste your time or the company's time."


Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:44:52 -0500
From: [name deleted]
To: Walter@frii.com
Subject: desperately need help

Walter,

Hi, My name is [deleted] and I am hoping that you or your group may be
able to help me.  I am a recent college graduate and have started a new
career as a technical recruiter.  I have had the job one month as of
today and to be honest I suck at it.  I need to hire 6 people this
quarter for my consulting company.  These are full-time positions and
the company and compensation here are great but, the problem is I have
been unable to find anyone with the background that I need.  I don't
want to lose my job, and I don't have much information to work with
as far as leads go.  I need technical people that have exposure to
i2's product suite.  I need programmers and data modelers.  Some of the
technical consultnats we already have know Perl, oil, shell script, ect.
so, I figured maybe the Perl Mongers could help me.  I am not sure if you
get a lot of requests from recruiters or not but, I really could use some
help.  Any advice you could give, or maybe if you know anyone like that
would be great.  Thanks!

Sincerely,

[name deleted]
National Resource Manager
[company deleted]
[phone deleted]


From bmozart at frii.com  Thu Jan 25 22:40:37 2001
From: bmozart at frii.com (Randall Fowle)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101251419410.43261-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101252134570.51614-100000@io.frii.com>

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> i2's product suite.  I need programmers and data modelers.  Some of the
> technical consultnats we already have know Perl, oil, shell script, ect.

Pardon me for asking something non-Perl-related--or for that matter, not
even related to this e-mail--but this sparked my curiosity.  Who or what
is "oil"?

-- 
Randy Fowle (bmozart@frii.com)
10 Chuwen 14 Muwan 12.19.7.16.11
12 Tun, 1 Winal, 9 K'in until the end of time and counting


From jvanslyk at matchlogic.com  Fri Jan 26 09:03:42 2001
From: jvanslyk at matchlogic.com (Jason Van Slyke)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help (fwd)
Message-ID: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301303D539B1@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com>

new one on me too so I stuck it into the search engine on webopedia, no
results.
maybe a typo?
jvs

-----Original Message-----
From: Randall Fowle [mailto:bmozart@frii.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 9:41 PM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] desperately need help (fwd)


On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> i2's product suite.  I need programmers and data modelers.  Some of the
> technical consultnats we already have know Perl, oil, shell script, ect.

Pardon me for asking something non-Perl-related--or for that matter, not
even related to this e-mail--but this sparked my curiosity.  Who or what
is "oil"?

-- 
Randy Fowle (bmozart@frii.com)
10 Chuwen 14 Muwan 12.19.7.16.11
12 Tun, 1 Winal, 9 K'in until the end of time and counting

From walter at frii.com  Fri Jan 26 09:58:25 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101252134570.51614-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101260852230.64250-100000@io.frii.com>

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Randall Fowle wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:
>
> > i2's product suite.  I need programmers and data modelers.  Some of the
> > technical consultnats we already have know Perl, oil, shell script, ect.
>
> Pardon me for asking something non-Perl-related--or for that matter, not
> even related to this e-mail--but this sparked my curiosity.  Who or what
> is "oil"?
>
> --
> Randy Fowle (bmozart@frii.com)
> 10 Chuwen 14 Muwan 12.19.7.16.11
> 12 Tun, 1 Winal, 9 K'in until the end of time and counting

Har.  Sure it's Perl-related.  Anything is Perl-related.  It's all a
matter of syntax.

  my $question = qx/apropos oil/;

I have no idea what oil is.  I can't even think of a vaguely close
sounding acronym.

Maybe I need more coffee still, but . . . that's a cryptic .sig ya
got there . . .

Walter


From akaba at lorax.org  Fri Jan 26 12:09:00 2001
From: akaba at lorax.org (Annaliese Beery)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101260852230.64250-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30L2.0101261002210.4110-100000@lorax.org>

> > Randy Fowle (bmozart@frii.com)
> > 10 Chuwen 14 Muwan 12.19.7.16.11
> > 12 Tun, 1 Winal, 9 K'in until the end of time and counting
>
> Maybe I need more coffee still, but . . . that's a cryptic .sig ya
> got there . . .

That's mayan calendar stuff...very cryptic until they decoded mayan
glyphs.  If I remember right, the second line is in what they call 'long
count' (the other calendar system being 'calendar round' and repeating
itself).  Long count is used for things like 'since the beginning' and
'until the end' because they knew when those two dates were.  Pretty
knowledgable, eh?

annaliese


From jvanslyk at matchlogic.com  Fri Jan 26 12:23:58 2001
From: jvanslyk at matchlogic.com (Jason Van Slyke)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help
Message-ID: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301303D539C0@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com>

yikes!

-----Original Message-----
From: Annaliese Beery [mailto:akaba@lorax.org]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:09 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] desperately need help


> > Randy Fowle (bmozart@frii.com)
> > 10 Chuwen 14 Muwan 12.19.7.16.11
> > 12 Tun, 1 Winal, 9 K'in until the end of time and counting
>
> Maybe I need more coffee still, but . . . that's a cryptic .sig ya
> got there . . .

That's mayan calendar stuff...very cryptic until they decoded mayan
glyphs.  If I remember right, the second line is in what they call 'long
count' (the other calendar system being 'calendar round' and repeating
itself).  Long count is used for things like 'since the beginning' and
'until the end' because they knew when those two dates were.  Pretty
knowledgable, eh?

annaliese

From jsimoni at totalsite.com  Fri Jan 26 13:07:06 2001
From: jsimoni at totalsite.com (Justin Simoni)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] desperately need help
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101260852230.64250-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <B69718EA.448%jsimoni@totalsite.com>

oil, 

its what you put in your car to make the engine run smoothly and its what
you use to fix squeaking hinges. Apparently, there are experts on it. I go
to Jiffy Lube myself. These new fangle cars have all these computers and
such :) 

js 



From walter at frii.com  Mon Jan 29 08:53:58 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] (fwd) [rmiug-discuss] any perl/ cgi progammers available?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101290753230.73205-100000@io.frii.com>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:57:32 -0700
From: David Gannon <dgannon3@qwest.net>
To: RMIUG <rmiug-discuss@rmiug.org>
Subject: [rmiug-discuss] any perl/ cgi progammers available?

hi,
i am a web graphic designer.
do you , or someone you know, do any  PERL/CGI programming on a
freelance/moonlighting, as-needed basis?
i am looking for a few people with those skills to do some sub-contracting?

i frequently find projects that require some perl, or cgi scripting,
maybe even a small program to be written and need some people that i
can hire to do this.

please let me know if you are available, as well as, what your rates are.

thanks

dave gannon
303-861-8446
dgannon3@qwest.net


-- 



+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   David Gannon			gannon@chickenscratch.net
   ChickenScratch Design Coop		http://www.chickenscratch.net
   Denver, Colorado			(p)303.861.8446 (f) 303.861.8446 *51
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

  *** You received this message because you are on an RMIUG mailing list ***
  ***  To subscribe or unsubscribe, please see the following web page:   ***
  ***                http://www.rmiug.org/maillist.html                  ***


From walter at frii.com  Mon Jan 29 09:50:01 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101290829590.73620-100000@io.frii.com>

Hey,

It's snowing outside, and I've caught my breath from the holidays
madness.  Life sucked for a while there, but it's better now.  I
hope it's the same for @you.

Anyway, I want to go snowshoeing.  It was just too much fun last
time.  But I also don't want to be derelict in what duties I might
be considered to have as Nominal Leader of this motley crew of
ne'er-do-wells, geeks, gurus, and diligent students of Perl.

Would anyone be interested in an actual meeting rather than a hike?
I have no idea what we'd do.  Informal hanging out and chatter?
A formal presentation under dimmed lights in a lecture hall?

Does anyone have something they'd like to hear about?
Only a few people talk much on the mailing list, and I don't feel like
I have a good sense of what most members want/need.

Walter


As a postscript, maybe I should add something that those of you
who've attended meetings in the past have heard:

This group drifts along.  I don't have the need or desire to try to
lead it along by the nose, and schedule things, and make presentations,
or perform CPR.  Maybe it's wrong thinking, but I'm comfortable with
Boulder.pm being as active or inactive as its members want.  There
are a LOT of good technical groups around here, some that have meetings
and some that exist only on mailing lists.  I figure Boulder.pm has
a lot of overlap with those groups, and that as a result, even though
we're low-profile, no one here is "technology-deprived".  So I'm not
worried too much.

On the other hand, if someone has questions they're not asking, here's
a sincere plea that you ask.  Odds are that someone else either has the
same question or will be dealing with it in the future.  Or if you have
some coherent thoughts on dealing with an issue, don't wait for a question:
push the information out.

Every once in a while, we have a meeting, or an e-mail like this
goes out, and the responses to the question "What would you like to do?"
are generally low-key both in tone and number.  Which I take to mean that
the status quo is just fine.

__END__


From jvanslyk at matchlogic.com  Mon Jan 29 10:40:19 2001
From: jvanslyk at matchlogic.com (Jason Van Slyke)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
Message-ID: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301303D539E3@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com>

Walter, et al;

the water is up to my neck and the gator's are circling. I've got 2 big
projects running, one due this Thursday and the other one Feb 15 plus I'm
taking a college class in my "spare" time. 

I'd kind of like the Informal hanging out and chatter thing at some point
but not in the next couple months. (Well, I'd like to go snow shoeing and/or
hiking too, but, as Walter knows, I'm not as physically fit as the average
person, so the chat thing is a better opportunity to actually chat.)

jvs

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Pienciak [mailto:walter@frii.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:50 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


Hey,

It's snowing outside, and I've caught my breath from the holidays
madness.  Life sucked for a while there, but it's better now.  I
hope it's the same for @you.

Anyway, I want to go snowshoeing.  It was just too much fun last
time.  But I also don't want to be derelict in what duties I might
be considered to have as Nominal Leader of this motley crew of
ne'er-do-wells, geeks, gurus, and diligent students of Perl.

Would anyone be interested in an actual meeting rather than a hike?
I have no idea what we'd do.  Informal hanging out and chatter?
A formal presentation under dimmed lights in a lecture hall?

Does anyone have something they'd like to hear about?
Only a few people talk much on the mailing list, and I don't feel like
I have a good sense of what most members want/need.

Walter


As a postscript, maybe I should add something that those of you
who've attended meetings in the past have heard:

This group drifts along.  I don't have the need or desire to try to
lead it along by the nose, and schedule things, and make presentations,
or perform CPR.  Maybe it's wrong thinking, but I'm comfortable with
Boulder.pm being as active or inactive as its members want.  There
are a LOT of good technical groups around here, some that have meetings
and some that exist only on mailing lists.  I figure Boulder.pm has
a lot of overlap with those groups, and that as a result, even though
we're low-profile, no one here is "technology-deprived".  So I'm not
worried too much.

On the other hand, if someone has questions they're not asking, here's
a sincere plea that you ask.  Odds are that someone else either has the
same question or will be dealing with it in the future.  Or if you have
some coherent thoughts on dealing with an issue, don't wait for a question:
push the information out.

Every once in a while, we have a meeting, or an e-mail like this
goes out, and the responses to the question "What would you like to do?"
are generally low-key both in tone and number.  Which I take to mean that
the status quo is just fine.

__END__

From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Mon Jan 29 13:18:23 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101290829590.73620-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCIEAOCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

Snowshoeing sounds wonderful.  Perhaps we can do this along the Mesa trail
this Tuesday afternoon, at around 3 PM, starting from Chautauqua.  I know
the snow cover doesn't last too long here, but it should last probably that
long, right?

I could go for a meeting too.  Perhaps we still have time to invite Damian
on his world speaking tour: http://www.yetanother.org/damian/events.html.
I'd love to hear him speak on Parse::FastDescent since I do use its
(slowish) predecessor, Parse::RecDescent.  Or more generally about his views
on the evolution of Perl into a metalanguage, without hopefully becoming a
monstrosity like Lisp.  Just its own monstrosity, of course.  In a proper
frame of mind, topics like these are a lot of fun to discuss informally too
IMHO because they represent the convergence of computers and philosophy, and
as is well known, that is where it also converges with brew pubs.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Walter Pienciak
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:50 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


Hey,

It's snowing outside, and I've caught my breath from the holidays
madness.  Life sucked for a while there, but it's better now.  I
hope it's the same for @you.

Anyway, I want to go snowshoeing.  It was just too much fun last
time.  But I also don't want to be derelict in what duties I might
be considered to have as Nominal Leader of this motley crew of
ne'er-do-wells, geeks, gurus, and diligent students of Perl.

Would anyone be interested in an actual meeting rather than a hike?
I have no idea what we'd do.  Informal hanging out and chatter?
A formal presentation under dimmed lights in a lecture hall?

Does anyone have something they'd like to hear about?
Only a few people talk much on the mailing list, and I don't feel like
I have a good sense of what most members want/need.

Walter


As a postscript, maybe I should add something that those of you
who've attended meetings in the past have heard:

This group drifts along.  I don't have the need or desire to try to
lead it along by the nose, and schedule things, and make presentations,
or perform CPR.  Maybe it's wrong thinking, but I'm comfortable with
Boulder.pm being as active or inactive as its members want.  There
are a LOT of good technical groups around here, some that have meetings
and some that exist only on mailing lists.  I figure Boulder.pm has
a lot of overlap with those groups, and that as a result, even though
we're low-profile, no one here is "technology-deprived".  So I'm not
worried too much.

On the other hand, if someone has questions they're not asking, here's
a sincere plea that you ask.  Odds are that someone else either has the
same question or will be dealing with it in the future.  Or if you have
some coherent thoughts on dealing with an issue, don't wait for a question:
push the information out.

Every once in a while, we have a meeting, or an e-mail like this
goes out, and the responses to the question "What would you like to do?"
are generally low-key both in tone and number.  Which I take to mean that
the status quo is just fine.

__END__



From walter at frii.com  Mon Jan 29 14:35:11 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCIEAOCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101291330560.74718-100000@io.frii.com>

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Snowshoeing sounds wonderful.  Perhaps we can do this along the Mesa trail
> this Tuesday afternoon, at around 3 PM, starting from Chautauqua.  I know
> the snow cover doesn't last too long here, but it should last probably that
> long, right?
>
> I could go for a meeting too.  Perhaps we still have time to invite Damian
> on his world speaking tour: http://www.yetanother.org/damian/events.html.
> I'd love to hear him speak on Parse::FastDescent since I do use its
> (slowish) predecessor, Parse::RecDescent.  Or more generally about his views
> on the evolution of Perl into a metalanguage, without hopefully becoming a
> monstrosity like Lisp.  Just its own monstrosity, of course.  In a proper
> frame of mind, topics like these are a lot of fun to discuss informally too
> IMHO because they represent the convergence of computers and philosophy, and
> as is well known, that is where it also converges with brew pubs.
>
> - Jim

I'm up in Gunbarrel, and we barely have anything on the ground.
(These storms since I moved here have been a lot of sound and fury
signifying . . . nothing.)

That said, I'd be happy to tromp around tomorrow afternoon in my boots.

Walter


From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Mon Jan 29 15:16:49 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101291330560.74718-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEBBCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

Here in East Chautauqua, the snow looks pretty decent.  I haven't had a
chance to go up into the mesas/Flatirons today, but it should be even
better.  Not certain if it will be still deep enough tomorrow so snowshoeing
will be fun - this is not Rocky Mountain NP - but it's worth a try.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Walter Pienciak
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 1:35 PM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Snowshoeing sounds wonderful.  Perhaps we can do this along the Mesa trail
> this Tuesday afternoon, at around 3 PM, starting from Chautauqua.  I know
> the snow cover doesn't last too long here, but it should last probably
that
> long, right?
>
> I could go for a meeting too.  Perhaps we still have time to invite Damian
> on his world speaking tour: http://www.yetanother.org/damian/events.html.
> I'd love to hear him speak on Parse::FastDescent since I do use its
> (slowish) predecessor, Parse::RecDescent.  Or more generally about his
views
> on the evolution of Perl into a metalanguage, without hopefully becoming a
> monstrosity like Lisp.  Just its own monstrosity, of course.  In a proper
> frame of mind, topics like these are a lot of fun to discuss informally
too
> IMHO because they represent the convergence of computers and philosophy,
and
> as is well known, that is where it also converges with brew pubs.
>
> - Jim

I'm up in Gunbarrel, and we barely have anything on the ground.
(These storms since I moved here have been a lot of sound and fury
signifying . . . nothing.)

That said, I'd be happy to tromp around tomorrow afternoon in my boots.

Walter



From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan 30 08:26:28 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEBBCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101300721390.2008-100000@io.frii.com>

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Here in East Chautauqua, the snow looks pretty decent.  I haven't had a
> chance to go up into the mesas/Flatirons today, but it should be even
> better.  Not certain if it will be still deep enough tomorrow so snowshoeing
> will be fun - this is not Rocky Mountain NP - but it's worth a try.
>
> - Jim

I was up by the Flatirons yesterday -- there's definitely not enough snow
to snowshoe.  I think to snowshoe we'll have to plan on going west and up
a bit, and there's not enough time after 3 to make that worthwhile.  I
think we'll need to plan and come up with a common weekday or Saturday.

Want to get together at 3 in the Chautauqua parking lot anyway?

Walter


From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Tue Jan 30 12:05:36 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101300721390.2008-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEBICFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

Sounds like a plan!  I'll see you there, along with the uncountable other
Perl hikers joining in for the fun :)

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Walter Pienciak
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 7:26 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Here in East Chautauqua, the snow looks pretty decent.  I haven't had a
> chance to go up into the mesas/Flatirons today, but it should be even
> better.  Not certain if it will be still deep enough tomorrow so
snowshoeing
> will be fun - this is not Rocky Mountain NP - but it's worth a try.
>
> - Jim

I was up by the Flatirons yesterday -- there's definitely not enough snow
to snowshoe.  I think to snowshoe we'll have to plan on going west and up
a bit, and there's not enough time after 3 to make that worthwhile.  I
think we'll need to plan and come up with a common weekday or Saturday.

Want to get together at 3 in the Chautauqua parking lot anyway?

Walter


From rise at frii.com  Tue Jan 30 14:20:38 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCGEBICFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101301318020.10024-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> Sounds like a plan!  I'll see you there, along with the uncountable other
> Perl hikers joining in for the fun :)

Well, you can count me among the UOPH.

Jonathan Conway


From walter at frii.com  Tue Jan 30 15:11:49 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101301318020.10024-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101301410210.7736-100000@io.frii.com>

For anyone coming who doesn't know what any of us look like,
I'll be sporting a green/black fleece, a beard, and a blue
baseball hat.

Walter


From boulder-pm at jim-baker.com  Tue Jan 30 18:23:31 2001
From: boulder-pm at jim-baker.com (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101301410210.7736-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCAEBPCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>

I just got back from the hiking, and I must say this is a very enjoyable way
to spend some time and do even a little professional sharing and
brainstorming.  I got some useful feedback from Jonathan on a problem I'm
working on (solution: use feedback!); and Walter introduced me to the 3rd
Flatiron trail, which is a very nice hike.

Thanks!

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org
[mailto:owner-boulder-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Walter Pienciak
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:12 PM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


For anyone coming who doesn't know what any of us look like,
I'll be sporting a green/black fleece, a beard, and a blue
baseball hat.

Walter



From walter at frii.com  Wed Jan 31 10:58:26 2001
From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <MNELJHCOIJFCJNJNIADCAEBPCFAA.boulder-pm@jim-baker.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101310751500.31956-100000@io.frii.com>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Jim Baker wrote:

> I just got back from the hiking, and I must say this is a very enjoyable way
> to spend some time and do even a little professional sharing and
> brainstorming.  I got some useful feedback from Jonathan on a problem I'm
> working on (solution: use feedback!); and Walter introduced me to the 3rd
> Flatiron trail, which is a very nice hike.
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Jim

I had an excellent time.  I'm pretty quiet sometimes, and in this case
had fun listening to stuff I know nothing about.  (Gosh, that's just
about anything, really.)

Plus, I was out of the virtual reality that my head is stuck in 40-60
hours/week.  When I get out into the real world, away from constructs and
abstractions, I find that my stress levels go down a LOT.

Thanks for the conversation.

A note of warning to anyone thinking about coming next time:  Jon
quite evilly tried to tempt me into the Softpro bookstore afterward
"just to look around."  Sure.  Like I could resist buying something.

Walter



From rise at frii.com  Wed Jan 31 15:28:11 2001
From: rise at frii.com (Jonathan Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101310751500.31956-100000@io.frii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0101311407330.40216-100000@io.frii.com>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> Plus, I was out of the virtual reality that my head is stuck in 40-60
> hours/week.  When I get out into the real world, away from constructs and
> abstractions, I find that my stress levels go down a LOT.

That seems true for everyone who shows up, though as we discovered it may
not be possible to do a one-to-one map of the reasons. :)

> A note of warning to anyone thinking about coming next time:  Jon
> quite evilly tried to tempt me into the Softpro bookstore afterward
> "just to look around."  Sure.  Like I could resist buying something.

Hey I don't sell you the books. At worst I'm the Joe Camel of this little
morality play.

Jonathan


From jvanslyk at matchlogic.com  Wed Jan 31 16:31:10 2001
From: jvanslyk at matchlogic.com (Jason Van Slyke)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:28 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
Message-ID: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301303D53A37@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com>

a dangerous thought would be to have a users group get-together at SoftPro
=8-)
jvs

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Conway [mailto:rise@frii.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:28 PM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Walter Pienciak wrote:

> Plus, I was out of the virtual reality that my head is stuck in 40-60
> hours/week.  When I get out into the real world, away from constructs and
> abstractions, I find that my stress levels go down a LOT.

That seems true for everyone who shows up, though as we discovered it may
not be possible to do a one-to-one map of the reasons. :)

> A note of warning to anyone thinking about coming next time:  Jon
> quite evilly tried to tempt me into the Softpro bookstore afterward
> "just to look around."  Sure.  Like I could resist buying something.

Hey I don't sell you the books. At worst I'm the Joe Camel of this little
morality play.

Jonathan

From Chris.Kunz at Level3.com  Mon Jan 29 10:16:23 2001
From: Chris.Kunz at Level3.com (Chris.Kunz@Level3.com)
Date: Wed Aug  4 23:58:29 2004
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?
Message-ID: <5A460FCC4F90D411AA110008C716B0A7307504@c0004v1idc1.oss.level3.com>

I have not been able to attend any of the events (although they sounded like
fun).  I would appreciate a meeting so that I could put some faces with the
names.  I like the informality of the boulder.pm group and read all the mail
that comes along.  I also like the fact that the mail volume is relatively
sparse.  Some of the tech lists I am on are so active that I end up deleting
at least half the messages without reading.  I also appreciate the fact that
Mr. Pienciak takes the time to 'manage' the group.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Pienciak [mailto:walter@frii.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:50 AM
To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org
Subject: [boulder.pm] incoming message from the big giant head?


Hey,

It's snowing outside, and I've caught my breath from the holidays
madness.  Life sucked for a while there, but it's better now.  I
hope it's the same for @you.

Anyway, I want to go snowshoeing.  It was just too much fun last
time.  But I also don't want to be derelict in what duties I might
be considered to have as Nominal Leader of this motley crew of
ne'er-do-wells, geeks, gurus, and diligent students of Perl.

Would anyone be interested in an actual meeting rather than a hike?
I have no idea what we'd do.  Informal hanging out and chatter?
A formal presentation under dimmed lights in a lecture hall?

Does anyone have something they'd like to hear about?
Only a few people talk much on the mailing list, and I don't feel like
I have a good sense of what most members want/need.

Walter


As a postscript, maybe I should add something that those of you
who've attended meetings in the past have heard:

This group drifts along.  I don't have the need or desire to try to
lead it along by the nose, and schedule things, and make presentations,
or perform CPR.  Maybe it's wrong thinking, but I'm comfortable with
Boulder.pm being as active or inactive as its members want.  There
are a LOT of good technical groups around here, some that have meetings
and some that exist only on mailing lists.  I figure Boulder.pm has
a lot of overlap with those groups, and that as a result, even though
we're low-profile, no one here is "technology-deprived".  So I'm not
worried too much.

On the other hand, if someone has questions they're not asking, here's
a sincere plea that you ask.  Odds are that someone else either has the
same question or will be dealing with it in the future.  Or if you have
some coherent thoughts on dealing with an issue, don't wait for a question:
push the information out.

Every once in a while, we have a meeting, or an e-mail like this
goes out, and the responses to the question "What would you like to do?"
are generally low-key both in tone and number.  Which I take to mean that
the status quo is just fine.

__END__