From marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com Tue Feb 25 15:39:30 2003 From: marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com (Marc Weinmann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] next meeting??? Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From eacostl at gw.orl.ilstu.edu Fri Feb 28 14:23:58 2003 From: eacostl at gw.orl.ilstu.edu (Erik Costlow) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] Perl for business Message-ID: A non-technical question, but one that I'm interested in... How prevalant is it out in the industry? What kind of acceptance does it have? The reason I ask is that I've been having trouble using it lately (I've been coding perl for a few years now). It's a very useful language, and with CPAN, you can accomplish a lot in perl with little effort. However, when I try to demonstrate things for non-perl coders, they say it should have been written in something else. For example, our ACS club at Illinois State University just had a coding competition for C++ and Java. I wanted to enter the C++ competition and wrap perl into my C code via perl.h, but I was told that it wasn't allowed. (It was a fair call under their guidelines, but I still wanted to use perl) Another one of my instructors wanted our class to write a network application, so I called IO::Socket and wrote both the client and server really quick. I was told that I couldn't use it because it didn't demonstrate what he wanted. The slogan for the Chicago PM is "You've got to love a language that's banned because it makes problems too easy to solve." This is true, but what are the advantages to knowing this when I can't use it anywhere except for my own projects? -Erik Costlow From marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com Fri Feb 28 14:59:30 2003 From: marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com (Marc Weinmann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] next meeting??? Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From lewart at uiuc.edu Fri Feb 28 15:03:49 2003 From: lewart at uiuc.edu (Daniel S. Lewart) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] Perl for business In-Reply-To: ; from eacostl@gw.orl.ilstu.edu on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 02:23:58PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20030228150349.A11457@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> Erik, et al, > The reason I ask is that I've been having trouble using it lately (I've > been coding perl for a few years now). It's a very useful language, and > with CPAN, you can accomplish a lot in perl with little effort. However, > when I try to demonstrate things for non-perl coders, they say it > should have been written in something else. For example, our ACS club > at Illinois State University just had a coding competition for C++ and > Java. I wanted to enter the C++ competition and wrap perl into my C code > via perl.h, but I was told that it wasn't allowed. (It was a fair call > under their guidelines, but I still wanted to use perl) Another one of my > instructors wanted our class to write a network application, so I called > IO::Socket and wrote both the client and server really quick. I was told > that I couldn't use it because it didn't demonstrate what he wanted. Good for you! > The slogan for the Chicago PM is "You've got to love a language that's > banned because it makes problems too easy to solve." This is true, but > what are the advantages to knowing this when I can't use it anywhere > except for my own projects? See the famous "Perl `Too Good'" story: http://archive.develooper.com/perl-trainers@perl.org/msg00142.html I use Perl everyday, as do lots of people. If a workplace bans Perl, don't waste your time working there. Good luck! Daniel Lewart http://cmi.pm.org/ From marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com Fri Feb 28 15:23:19 2003 From: marc.weinmann.lwed at statefarm.com (Marc Weinmann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] Perl for business Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From pawinan at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 28 15:38:52 2003 From: pawinan at ilstu.edu (Phil Winans) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] Perl for business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Erik Costlow wrote: > A non-technical question, but one that I'm interested in... How > prevalant is it out in the industry? What kind of acceptance does it > have? I'm no expert on what looks hot on a resume', but you might want to check out http://jobs.perl.org. From what I've read and the people I've talked to, a great deal of organizations depend on Perl, and not just for web applications. I can tell you that several computer services provided by ISU are powered by Perl. And regardless if Perl isn't the most widely used language, I'm a lot happier using it than VB or COBOL. > The reason I ask is that I've been having trouble using it lately (I've > been coding perl for a few years now). It's a very useful language, and > with CPAN, you can accomplish a lot in perl with little effort. However, > when I try to demonstrate things for non-perl coders, they say it should > have been written in something else. I try to avoid arguments that are very general, such as "Should you always use Python or should you always use C? Discuss." The language you use really depends on the requirements of the problem you're trying to solve, and what you and others in your organization are skilled in. I have noticed a great deal of Perl ignorance, and perhaps the poor quality of several perl scripts on the web and books like "Teach yourself Perl in 2 minutes" have contributed to a negative perception of the language. People claim Perl is a write-only language. I disagree with this. If you properly scope your variables, use appropriate data structures, and utilize modules, your programs can be very readable. A Perl programmer who actually knows the language and is familiar with CPAN can develop very *fast* and do the job right. I also think the statement "Perl is slow." is complete FUD. Especially if you write the time-critical sections in XS. Check out Kernighan & Pike's "Practice of Programming" for timings of programs doing the same thing written in different languages (and also really good software engineering tips.) > For example, our ACS club at > Illinois State University just had a coding competition for C++ and > Java. I wanted to enter the C++ competition and wrap perl into my C code > via perl.h, but I was told that it wasn't allowed. (It was a fair call > under their guidelines, but I still wanted to use perl) Well, whether or not that should be done is debatable. Is it worth the extra overhead to write certain sections in Perl? I suppose that depends on the goals of the competition. Is it more important to write the program quickly, to have your program use less system resources, to have fewer bugs, or a combination of several factors? > Another one of > my instructors wanted our class to write a network application, so I > called IO::Socket and wrote both the client and server really quick. I > was told that I couldn't use it because it didn't demonstrate what he > wanted. Your instructor may have been justified if the purpose of the assignment if to teach you how to write a network application at a lower level (e.g. writing it in C and using socket.h, or even Perl w/Socket.pm should have been acceptable). For real world problems where development time and the application's robustness are actually important issues, I think a great many problems can be solved IO::Socket, and there is absolutely no need to re-invent the wheel. Even using a higher level interface like IO::Socket, network applications programming is no piece of cake. I think a great deal of concepts could be learned from a class that did have assignments using IO::Socket and Lincoln Stein's "Network Programming with Perl." as the textbook. -- Phil Winans - pawinan@ilstu.edu Network Engineer Telecommunications and Network Support Services Illinois State University From lewart at uiuc.edu Fri Feb 28 15:47:24 2003 From: lewart at uiuc.edu (Daniel S. Lewart) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] Perl for business In-Reply-To: ; from marc.weinmann.lwed@statefarm.com on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 03:23:19PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20030228154724.A23873@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> Marc, et al, > hey..the uiuc perl group is alive!.. Your website wasn't updated for the > longest time that it had us wondering if the group was still alive. Did it > recently get started back up again or was it active all along? Actually, we are the Champaign-Urbana Perl Mongers, because I want non-UIUC folks to feel welcome. After one member pointed out that our meetings were occurring less frequently than his children were being born, I decided to have them (meetings) more often. Also, the creation of the Bloomington-Normal Perl Mongers was inspirational! The key is making sure to schedule the next meeting each time. FYI, our recent schedule: * Jun 2001 * Nov 2001 ... time passes ... * Dec 2002 * Feb 2003 * Mar 2003 Also, I get plenty of Perl-related email in between meetings. Cheers, Dan http://cmi.pm.org/ From pawinan at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 28 16:11:31 2003 From: pawinan at ilstu.edu (Phil Winans) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:24:26 2004 Subject: [Bloomington-normal-pm] next meeting??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Marc Weinmann wrote: > All - > > Let meet this upcoming Wednesday(5th) 7:30pm at Lunkers. > > Sound good...all in favor? I talked with a few people that are interested & > will try to attend. I should be able to make this date. Though if any under 21 plans on coming, please let us know so we can change locations, because Lunkers tries to kick under-21 yr olds out around 8:30 or so. -- Phil Winans - pawinan@ilstu.edu Network Engineer Telecommunications and Network Support Services Illinois State University