From will at coleda.com Tue Jul 12 13:57:23 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:57:23 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the conference. o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm - if anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on that front. o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. Regards. From PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com Tue Jul 12 14:08:44 2005 From: PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com (ANDERSON, PATRICK) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:08:44 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA1@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> July 28th works for me, as does any day that week - anytime after 6pm is good. -----Original Message----- (snipped to conserve bandwidth) From mcwilc at rpi.edu Tue Jul 12 14:15:09 2005 From: mcwilc at rpi.edu (Cory McWilliams) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:15:09 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA1@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA1@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> Message-ID: <42D432DD.5010308@rpi.edu> Sounds great. Just say when and where. ANDERSON, PATRICK wrote: > July 28th works for me, as does any day that week - anytime after 6pm is good. Confidentiality Notice: This message, including any attachments, may contain confidential information. If you have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender immediately, delete all copies, and do not distribute or use this information. Thanks! From sandy at kear.net Tue Jul 12 16:41:06 2005 From: sandy at kear.net (Sandy Kear) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32980.69.207.8.172.1121211666.squirrel@mail.kear.net> july 28 is good. -sandy > Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? > > o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, > coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) > > o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the conference. > > o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm - if > anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. > > o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way > for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on > that front. > > o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. > Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. > > Regards. > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > From lifefeed at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 05:48:43 2005 From: lifefeed at gmail.com (Justin .) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:48:43 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <32980.69.207.8.172.1121211666.squirrel@mail.kear.net> References: <32980.69.207.8.172.1121211666.squirrel@mail.kear.net> Message-ID: <5a996c0b050713054815716f0e@mail.gmail.com> So July 28 at the Panera Bread near Crossgates? On 7/12/05, Sandy Kear wrote: > > july 28 is good. > > -sandy > > > Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? > > > > o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, > > coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) > > > > o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the conference. > > > > o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm- if > > anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. > > > > o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way > > for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on > > that front. > > > > o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. > > Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. > > > > Regards. > > _______________________________________________ > > Albany-pm mailing list > > Albany-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/albany-pm/attachments/20050713/2eaed835/attachment.html From will at coleda.com Wed Jul 13 06:15:56 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:15:56 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <5a996c0b050713054815716f0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32980.69.207.8.172.1121211666.squirrel@mail.kear.net> <5a996c0b050713054815716f0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77A20A5D-4233-440D-A0E1-0B237BB48B22@coleda.com> It would be slightly more convenient for me to use the Panera on Route 4 near Walmart. Anyone else have a preference either way? On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:48 AM, Justin . wrote: > So July 28 at the Panera Bread near Crossgates? > > On 7/12/05, Sandy Kear wrote: july 28 is good. > > -sandy > > > Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? > > > > o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, > > coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) > > > > o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the > conference. > > > > o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm > - if > > anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. > > > > o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way > > for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on > > that front. > > > > o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. > > Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. > > > > Regards. > > _______________________________________________ > > Albany-pm mailing list > > Albany-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > From jb at murdico.com Wed Jul 13 06:34:48 2005 From: jb at murdico.com (JB Murdico) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:34:48 -0500 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050713132711.M36093@murdico.com> I counter your Panera offer with Nothing But Noodles on Rt 7 in Peter Harris Plaza. http://www.nothingbutnoodles.com/ - They have SPICY food - They have cotten candy for $1 (Big plate of it) - Flavored Unsweetened Ice Tea - Wifi -JB On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:57:23 -0400, Will Coleda wrote > Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? > > o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, > coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) > > o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the conference. > > o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm - > if anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. > > o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way > for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on > that front. > > o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. > Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. > > Regards. > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm -JB From PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com Wed Jul 13 06:37:36 2005 From: PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com (ANDERSON, PATRICK) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:37:36 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA2@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> On Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:16 AM, Will Coleda wrote: > It would be slightly more convenient for me to use the Panera on > Route 4 near Walmart. Anyone else have a preference either way? > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:48 AM, Justin . wrote: > > So July 28 at the Panera Bread near Crossgates? Closer to Downtown Albany is preferable to me, but I'm willing to go to Crossgates if we have more State Campus/Wolf Road people. From will at coleda.com Wed Jul 13 06:38:38 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:38:38 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <20050713132711.M36093@murdico.com> References: <20050713132711.M36093@murdico.com> Message-ID: <516878A2-53F7-4014-BC75-5130FFF657C1@coleda.com> Ooh. new, different, spicy. I'm convinced. On Jul 13, 2005, at 9:34 AM, JB Murdico wrote: > I counter your Panera offer with Nothing But Noodles on Rt 7 in > Peter Harris > Plaza. > > http://www.nothingbutnoodles.com/ > > - They have SPICY food > - They have cotten candy for $1 (Big plate of it) > - Flavored Unsweetened Ice Tea > - Wifi > > -JB > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:57:23 -0400, Will Coleda wrote > >> Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? >> >> o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, >> coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) >> >> o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the >> conference. >> >> o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm - >> if anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. >> >> o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way >> for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on >> that front. >> >> o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. >> Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. >> >> Regards. >> _______________________________________________ >> Albany-pm mailing list >> Albany-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm >> > > > -JB > > > From PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com Wed Jul 13 07:10:46 2005 From: PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com (ANDERSON, PATRICK) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:10:46 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA3@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> I concur. On Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:39 AM, Will Coleda opined: > Ooh. new, different, spicy. I'm convinced. > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 9:34 AM, JB Murdico suggested: > > I counter your Panera offer with Nothing But Noodles on > > Rt 7 in Peter Harris Plaza. > > > > http://www.nothingbutnoodles.com/ > > > > - They have SPICY food > > - They have cotten candy for $1 (Big plate of it) > > - Flavored Unsweetened Ice Tea > > - Wifi From ab9590 at albany.edu Wed Jul 13 07:53:15 2005 From: ab9590 at albany.edu (Adam Bloomston) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:53:15 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA2@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA2@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> Message-ID: <42D52ADB.2030003@albany.edu> I haven't quite introduced myself yet- I'm a college student who likes Perl. I'd be really interested in attending the meeting, but work until 5PM the 28th, and have no car. As I live and work downtown, it would be much more convenient for me if we met somewhere closer to downtown- but, if need be, would be willing to meet anywhere along the Washington and Western bus routes (Panera included). Best, Adam >On Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:16 AM, Will Coleda wrote: > > >>It would be slightly more convenient for me to use the Panera on >>Route 4 near Walmart. Anyone else have a preference either way? >> >>On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:48 AM, Justin . wrote: >> >> >>>So July 28 at the Panera Bread near Crossgates? >>> >>> > >Closer to Downtown Albany is preferable to me, but I'm willing >to go to Crossgates if we have more State Campus/Wolf Road people. >_______________________________________________ >Albany-pm mailing list >Albany-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > > From PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com Wed Jul 13 13:11:22 2005 From: PATRICK.ANDERSON at bankofamerica.com (ANDERSON, PATRICK) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:11:22 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> I work at the corner of State and Pearl and I get out of work around 6PM, and I'd be willing to give a ride to any aspiring Perl Monger who wanted to go to a meeting that wasn't readily accessible by bus. -----Original Message----- From: albany-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:albany-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Adam Bloomston Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:53 AM To: Albany-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [albany-pm] Meeting? I haven't quite introduced myself yet- I'm a college student who likes Perl. I'd be really interested in attending the meeting, but work until 5PM the 28th, and have no car. As I live and work downtown, it would be much more convenient for me if we met somewhere closer to downtown- but, if need be, would be willing to meet anywhere along the Washington and Western bus routes (Panera included). Best, Adam >On Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:16 AM, Will Coleda wrote: > > >>It would be slightly more convenient for me to use the Panera on >>Route 4 near Walmart. Anyone else have a preference either way? >> >>On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:48 AM, Justin . wrote: >> >> >>>So July 28 at the Panera Bread near Crossgates? >>> >>> > >Closer to Downtown Albany is preferable to me, but I'm willing >to go to Crossgates if we have more State Campus/Wolf Road people. >_______________________________________________ >Albany-pm mailing list >Albany-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > > _______________________________________________ Albany-pm mailing list Albany-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm From will at coleda.com Wed Jul 13 13:23:50 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:23:50 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> Message-ID: <6B8079FB-FE8E-4163-B8CD-96D3BB86B36E@coleda.com> I'm sure we can coordinate rides from other locations as well. If you want to go but need a ride, ask on the list. So, for now, we're looking at 7/28; NothingButNoodles; start time of 6:30 or 7pm. We'll shoot for an hour or so? Anyone who attended the conference, let me know what you'd like to speak about. I'll plan on giving a Perl6 demo. Mr. Anderson, you should plan on giving a demo on something as well. =-) On Jul 13, 2005, at 4:11 PM, ANDERSON, PATRICK wrote: > I work at the corner of State and Pearl and I get out of work > around 6PM, > and I'd be willing to give a ride to any aspiring Perl Monger who > wanted > to go to a meeting that wasn't readily accessible by bus. > From jchastain at hvc.rr.com Sat Jul 16 08:58:02 2005 From: jchastain at hvc.rr.com (Jack Chastain) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:58:02 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Message-ID: Unfortunately I wil be freshly returned from 2 weeks traveling "Out West" and will be starting Solaris 10 class immediately on the return. I know I will not be up for a long drive to Albany. Maybe next time! Jack -----Original Message----- From: "Will Coleda" Sent: 7/12/05 4:57:23 PM To: "albany-pm at pm.org" Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? Anyone up for a meeting, say on 7/28 in the evening? o I'd suggest someplace like Panera during the off hours. Food, coffee, and free wifi so we can use our laptops. =-) o A few of us could summarize briefly nifty things from the conference. o I have a copy of _higher order perl_ that belongs to Albany.pm - if anyone would like to borrow it for a week or two, lemme know. o I've asked the head of parrot (Chip Salzenberg), if there's a way for a PM group to assist with development. I'll keep you posted on that front. o If you RSVP in the *positive*, let me know when is good for you. Reply to the list. Feel free to suggest a different day than I have. Regards. _______________________________________________ Albany-pm mailing list Albany-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm [Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.] From will at coleda.com Mon Jul 25 10:38:22 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:38:22 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <6B8079FB-FE8E-4163-B8CD-96D3BB86B36E@coleda.com> References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> <6B8079FB-FE8E-4163-B8CD-96D3BB86B36E@coleda.com> Message-ID: <887A6867-7A8D-4B82-BA83-297C755A753A@coleda.com> Hearing no objections: 7/28; Nothing But Noodles; 7pm-8pm - expect about 15m of parrot/perl6/ pugs from me, and about 10-15m of from Mr. Anderson, leaving the remaining time for food and perlish chat. Not necessarily in that order. Looks like we have six people coming. (anyone who hasn't already RSVP'd?) See you there. On Jul 13, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Will Coleda wrote: > I'm sure we can coordinate rides from other locations as well. If you > want to go but need a ride, ask on the list. > > So, for now, we're looking at 7/28; NothingButNoodles; start time of > 6:30 or 7pm. We'll shoot for an hour or so? > > Anyone who attended the conference, let me know what you'd like to > speak about. I'll plan on giving a Perl6 demo. From plalli at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 14:52:49 2005 From: plalli at gmail.com (Paul Lalli) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:52:49 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: <887A6867-7A8D-4B82-BA83-297C755A753A@coleda.com> References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> <6B8079FB-FE8E-4163-B8CD-96D3BB86B36E@coleda.com> <887A6867-7A8D-4B82-BA83-297C755A753A@coleda.com> Message-ID: Whoops. I forgot to RSVP. I'll be there. Paul Lalli On 7/25/05, Will Coleda wrote: > > Hearing no objections: > > 7/28; Nothing But Noodles; 7pm-8pm - expect about 15m of parrot/perl6/ > pugs from me, and about 10-15m of from Mr. Anderson, leaving the > remaining time for food and perlish chat. Not necessarily in that order. > > Looks like we have six people coming. (anyone who hasn't already > RSVP'd?) > > See you there. > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Will Coleda wrote: > > > I'm sure we can coordinate rides from other locations as well. If you > > want to go but need a ride, ask on the list. > > > > So, for now, we're looking at 7/28; NothingButNoodles; start time of > > 6:30 or 7pm. We'll shoot for an hour or so? > > > > Anyone who attended the conference, let me know what you'd like to > > speak about. I'll plan on giving a Perl6 demo. > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > -- "Just because there's more than one way to do it doesn't mean that all ways are equally cool." -- Learning Perl, Ch. 16 (More found at http://cgi2.cs.rpi.edu/~lallip/cgi-bin/perl/spring05/quotes.cgi ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/albany-pm/attachments/20050725/6603abf7/attachment.html From will at coleda.com Thu Jul 28 14:19:49 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:19:49 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <5428D633F4014E4EBB589EE17A86BAEC05AD3FA7@usalbwmxmp23.ny.fbf1.com> <6B8079FB-FE8E-4163-B8CD-96D3BB86B36E@coleda.com> <887A6867-7A8D-4B82-BA83-297C755A753A@coleda.com> Message-ID: <6F423385-6331-4DAE-B95F-EEAD87B13B9D@coleda.com> See everybody there. I'm heading over a bit early, I'm the bald guy with the powerbook. Er, well, one of them, anyway. Regards. On Jul 25, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Paul Lalli wrote: > Whoops. I forgot to RSVP. > > I'll be there. > > Paul Lalli > > On 7/25/05, Will Coleda wrote: Hearing no > objections: > > 7/28; Nothing But Noodles; 7pm-8pm - expect about 15m of parrot/perl6/ > pugs from me, and about 10-15m of from Mr. Anderson, leaving the > remaining time for food and perlish chat. Not necessarily in that > order. > > Looks like we have six people coming. (anyone who hasn't already > RSVP'd?) > > See you there. > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Will Coleda wrote: > > > I'm sure we can coordinate rides from other locations as well. If > you > > want to go but need a ride, ask on the list. > > > > So, for now, we're looking at 7/28; NothingButNoodles; start time of > > 6:30 or 7pm. We'll shoot for an hour or so? > > > > Anyone who attended the conference, let me know what you'd like to > > speak about. I'll plan on giving a Perl6 demo. > _______________________________________________ > Albany-pm mailing list > Albany-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/albany-pm > > > > -- > "Just because there's more than one way to do it doesn't mean that > all ways are equally cool." > -- Learning Perl, Ch. 16 > (More found at http://cgi2.cs.rpi.edu/~lallip/cgi-bin/perl/spring05/ > quotes.cgi ) From will at coleda.com Fri Jul 29 07:28:44 2005 From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:28:44 -0400 Subject: [albany-pm] Meeting followup Message-ID: Article on perl.com about someone's efforts to port Test::Builder to perl6. http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/28/test_builder_p6.html Nice to meet all of you last night: we should plan another meeting late august/early september. While NbN had some great food, it was unwieldy for the number of people that showed up. Perhaps one of the college students in our group can arrange a conference room. Justin suggested the RPI Union's bar. For a small chunk of work that we could do as a "group", we could go through the documentation and the examples at http://www.parrotcode.org/ and in increasing level of difficulty: 1) make sure the examples still work with the current version of parrot. 2) find any simple documentation nits. (missing punctuation, typos, grammar, etc.) 3) find any more complex documentation problems, like missing documentation for certain opcodes, etc. and at http://bugs6.perl.org/ 4) verify that old bugs haven't been fixed and just not closed. 5) find TODOs or bugs at http://bugs6.perl.org/ for parrot and try to implement one of them. And, for something hardly perl related at all, I would of course love volunteers to help with Partcl (tcl written on parrot). Of course, that's about 3 steps removed from perl5, so it's probably not interesting for most of you. =-)