From szabgab at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 00:16:50 2010
From: szabgab at gmail.com (Gabor Szabo)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:16:50 +0300
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

http://harrisburg.pm.org/ is quite broken.
I sent a mail to Eric Andreychek <hpm at openthought.net> who is listed
as the admin
of Harrisburg.pm but the message bounced.

Is there anyone who is interested to take over that PM group and try
to make it work
or shall I just remove it from the list of active PM groups?

Gabor


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Brad Lhotsky <lhotskyb at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.cposc.org/ ?October 16th, 2010, in Harrisburg, PA
>>
>> I'm friends of the Central Pennsylvania Linux User Group that throws the
>> Central Pennsylvania Open Source Conference. ?Gabor Szabo mentioned he'd
>> like to have some Perl presence at this event. I sent an email to the
>> CPOSC organizers and they informed me that they currently have _zero_
>> talks on Perl. ?They also expressed interest in hosting some Perl
>> Content this year.
>>
>> I'm going to do my best to put together a few additional talks for the
>> CFP (Closes July 19th). ?The Baltimore.PM (Mike Barry, Dawn Wallis, and
>> myself) are interested in setting up a Perl Table at the conference.
>>
>> Any one in the area want to come hang out with a cool group of people
>> and spread the word about Perl? :)
>
> It would be nice if ?you could add an entry about CPOSC to the list of
> events http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?events
> and then created a page, specific to this event where you could coordinate
> things such as presence at the Perl Table or where do you get
> the conference swag from.
>
> There is also a separate mailing list for the "TPF Events group"
> linked from that
> wiki page where participants of previous events might be able to help you.
>
> I planned to leave most of the tuits here so you are welcome to pick
> up a bunch of
> them to give away on CPOSC.
>
> regards
> ? Gabor
>

From casey at geeknest.com  Tue Jul  6 06:27:40 2010
From: casey at geeknest.com (Casey West)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 09:27:40 -0400
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>

Gabor,

Wait just a second. Your attempts to track down Eric are too shallow given
the actions you propose. So far it looks like you found some broken images
on their website and sent one email which bounced. I'd encourage you to dig
a little deeper before promoting coup or termination of a Perl Monger
group. For example, Googling Eric's name (no quotes) turns up the following
information in the first ten results:

1. OpenThought.org, his site, which shows several ways to find him.
2. His CPAN directory, which includes his email address in the Google
listing.
3. His Facebook Page, you could message him there.
4. His Twitter account, you could message him there.
5. His LinkedIn profile, you could message him there.
6. His recent involvement in the Central Pennsylvania Linux User Group

It seems Eric has a history of close involvement with this event. I suggest
you should reach out to him by other means than just the email address
listed on the pm.org page. The PM group may be dormant, I don't know, but it
deserves a little more effort to find out. Good luck, and thanks for trying
to get Perl seen at this event!

Cheers,

Casey West

(Side note: As a group organizer, and a bad one at that, I would find your
proposed next steps to be out of line with your attempts to contact me. It
would be frustrating.)

On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> http://harrisburg.pm.org/ is quite broken.
> I sent a mail to Eric Andreychek <hpm at openthought.net> who is listed
> as the admin
> of Harrisburg.pm but the message bounced.
>
> Is there anyone who is interested to take over that PM group and try
> to make it work
> or shall I just remove it from the list of active PM groups?
>
> Gabor
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Brad Lhotsky <lhotskyb at mail.nih.gov>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.cposc.org/  October 16th, 2010, in Harrisburg, PA
> >>
> >> I'm friends of the Central Pennsylvania Linux User Group that throws the
> >> Central Pennsylvania Open Source Conference.  Gabor Szabo mentioned he'd
> >> like to have some Perl presence at this event. I sent an email to the
> >> CPOSC organizers and they informed me that they currently have _zero_
> >> talks on Perl.  They also expressed interest in hosting some Perl
> >> Content this year.
> >>
> >> I'm going to do my best to put together a few additional talks for the
> >> CFP (Closes July 19th).  The Baltimore.PM (Mike Barry, Dawn Wallis, and
> >> myself) are interested in setting up a Perl Table at the conference.
> >>
> >> Any one in the area want to come hang out with a cool group of people
> >> and spread the word about Perl? :)
> >
> > It would be nice if  you could add an entry about CPOSC to the list of
> > events http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?events
> > and then created a page, specific to this event where you could
> coordinate
> > things such as presence at the Perl Table or where do you get
> > the conference swag from.
> >
> > There is also a separate mailing list for the "TPF Events group"
> > linked from that
> > wiki page where participants of previous events might be able to help
> you.
> >
> > I planned to leave most of the tuits here so you are welcome to pick
> > up a bunch of
> > them to give away on CPOSC.
> >
> > regards
> >   Gabor
> >
> _______________________________________________
> yapc mailing list
> yapc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc
>
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From szabgab at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 00:13:55 2010
From: szabgab at gmail.com (Gabor Szabo)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:13:55 +0300
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>

Luckily by the time I read this Eric has already seen my message on the
YAPC list, or someone alerted him (thanks !). He already fixed the issues
and contacted me. Thank you!


Casey, you are right I could have done a lot more research trying to
track him down. I could have asked around if anyone knows Eric and
has his contact and then waited a month.

Gabor



On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Casey West <casey at geeknest.com> wrote:
> Gabor,
> Wait just a second. Your attempts to track down Eric are too shallow given
> the actions you propose. So far it looks like you found some broken images
> on their website and sent one email which bounced.?I'd encourage you to dig
> a little deeper before promoting coup or termination of a Perl Monger
> group.?For example, Googling Eric's name (no quotes) turns up the following
> information in the first ten results:
> 1. OpenThought.org, his site, which shows several ways to find him.
> 2. His CPAN directory, which includes his email address in the Google
> listing.
> 3. His Facebook Page, you could message him there.
> 4. His Twitter account, you could message him there.
> 5. His LinkedIn profile, you could message him there.
> 6. His recent involvement in the?Central Pennsylvania Linux User Group
> It seems Eric has a history of close involvement with this event. I suggest
> you should reach out to him by other means than just the email address
> listed on the pm.org page. The PM group may be dormant, I don't know, but it
> deserves a little more effort to find out.?Good luck, and thanks for trying
> to get Perl seen at this event!
> Cheers,
> Casey West
> (Side note: As a group organizer, and a bad one at that, I would find your
> proposed next steps to be out of line with your attempts to contact me. It
> would be frustrating.)
> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> http://harrisburg.pm.org/ is quite broken.
>> I sent a mail to Eric Andreychek <hpm at openthought.net> who is listed
>> as the admin
>> of Harrisburg.pm but the message bounced.
>>
>> Is there anyone who is interested to take over that PM group and try
>> to make it work
>> or shall I just remove it from the list of active PM groups?
>>
>> Gabor
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Brad Lhotsky <lhotskyb at mail.nih.gov>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.cposc.org/ ?October 16th, 2010, in Harrisburg, PA
>> >>
>> >> I'm friends of the Central Pennsylvania Linux User Group that throws
>> >> the
>> >> Central Pennsylvania Open Source Conference. ?Gabor Szabo mentioned
>> >> he'd
>> >> like to have some Perl presence at this event. I sent an email to the
>> >> CPOSC organizers and they informed me that they currently have _zero_
>> >> talks on Perl. ?They also expressed interest in hosting some Perl
>> >> Content this year.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to do my best to put together a few additional talks for the
>> >> CFP (Closes July 19th). ?The Baltimore.PM (Mike Barry, Dawn Wallis, and
>> >> myself) are interested in setting up a Perl Table at the conference.
>> >>
>> >> Any one in the area want to come hang out with a cool group of people
>> >> and spread the word about Perl? :)
>> >
>> > It would be nice if ?you could add an entry about CPOSC to the list of
>> > events http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?events
>> > and then created a page, specific to this event where you could
>> > coordinate
>> > things such as presence at the Perl Table or where do you get
>> > the conference swag from.
>> >
>> > There is also a separate mailing list for the "TPF Events group"
>> > linked from that
>> > wiki page where participants of previous events might be able to help
>> > you.
>> >
>> > I planned to leave most of the tuits here so you are welcome to pick
>> > up a bunch of
>> > them to give away on CPOSC.
>> >
>> > regards
>> > ? Gabor
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> yapc mailing list
>> yapc at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc
>
>

From lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com  Wed Jul  7 05:57:35 2010
From: lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com (Len Jaffe)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 08:57:35 -0400
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikukyMNmOwYR_5b7VfVDQIi_N0ApWGTg7-hSwg1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:

> Casey, you are right I could have done a lot more research trying to
> track him down. I could have asked around if anyone knows Eric and
> has his contact and then waited a month.
>
>
Gabor is cold-blooded, and efficient.
That is why we love him and fear him.


-- 
lenjaffe at jaffesystems.com   614-404-4214
Scoutmaster Troop 156 - www.bsatroop156.org
Proprietor: http://www.theycomewithcheese.com/ - An Homage to Fromage
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From miner at doit.wisc.edu  Wed Jul  7 07:50:21 2010
From: miner at doit.wisc.edu (Jon Miner)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:50:21 -0500
Subject: [yapc] Fwd: Re: Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
Message-ID: <4C34942D.7000009@doit.wisc.edu>

(Apologies for the duplicate, I sent the original from the wrong email 
address and the list manager rejected it..)

On 7/7/10 2:13 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
>  Casey, you are right I could have done a lot more research trying to
>  track him down. I could have asked around if anyone knows Eric and
>  has his contact and then waited a month.
>

So, how much is he being paid to maintain the site, and of that pay, how
much of his time is being paid to make sure the site is perfectly
maintained and up to date?

This is exactly the type of blame assignment and agressive behavior that
discourages volunteers, discourages new people from joining, and
discourages expansion and adoption of our beloved language.

It might be a different thing on a private list, but this is a public
list, filled with potential volunteers who are now discouraged from
trying to help for fear of being publicly berated.

jon

-- 
.Jonathan J. Miner----------------------------------------------------.
|  jon at jjminer.org  |      photos - http://photos.jjminer.org/        |
|                   | R.A.W. #1629 - http://www.reggaeambassadors.org |
|                   | LOCS Webmaster - http://www.locs-buffett.org    |
|  jabber/gchat: camrycurbhopper at gmail.com      AIM: camrycurbhopper  |
`---------------------------------------------------------------------'

"We don't have a town drunk...   We all take turns!"
     -- James Slater, "Key West Address"



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From szabgab at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 08:09:37 2010
From: szabgab at gmail.com (Gabor Szabo)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 18:09:37 +0300
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Jon Miner <jon at jjminer.org> wrote:
> On 7/7/10 2:13 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
>>
>> Casey, you are right I could have done a lot more research trying to
>> track him down. I could have asked around if anyone knows Eric and
>> has his contact and then waited a month.
>>
>
> So, how much is he being paid to maintain the site, and of that pay, how
> much of his time is being paid to make sure the site is perfectly maintained
> and up to date?
>
> This is exactly the type of blame assignment and agressive behavior that
> discourages volunteers, discourages new people from joining, and discourages
> expansion and adoption of our beloved language.
>
> It might be a different thing on a private list, but this is a public list,
> filled with potential volunteers who are now discouraged from trying to help
> for fear of being publicly berated.
>

wow.
I just acknowledged that Casey was right and I should have been
more careful.
Do you really feel I was aggressive in that?

Gabor

From will at coleda.com  Wed Jul  7 08:19:08 2010
From: will at coleda.com (Will Coleda)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 11:19:08 -0400
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Jon Miner <jon at jjminer.org> wrote:
>> On 7/7/10 2:13 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
>>>
>>> Casey, you are right I could have done a lot more research trying to
>>> track him down. I could have asked around if anyone knows Eric and
>>> has his contact and then waited a month.
>>>
>>
>> So, how much is he being paid to maintain the site, and of that pay, how
>> much of his time is being paid to make sure the site is perfectly maintained
>> and up to date?
>>
>> This is exactly the type of blame assignment and agressive behavior that
>> discourages volunteers, discourages new people from joining, and discourages
>> expansion and adoption of our beloved language.
>>
>> It might be a different thing on a private list, but this is a public list,
>> filled with potential volunteers who are now discouraged from trying to help
>> for fear of being publicly berated.
>>
>
> wow.
> I just acknowledged that Casey was right and I should have been
> more careful.
> Do you really feel I was aggressive in that?
>
> Gabor
> _______________________________________________
> yapc mailing list
> yapc at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc
>

Gabor - it's probably just that it was read as sarcastic rather than
literal - it's far too easy to misconstrue these sorts of things
without any context other than the text.

Thanks for trying to improve the state of the community. =-)

-- 
Will "Coke" Coleda

From miner at doit.wisc.edu  Wed Jul  7 09:28:27 2010
From: miner at doit.wisc.edu (Jon Miner)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:28:27 -0500
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu>

On 7/7/10 10:19 AM, Will Coleda wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Gabor Szabo<szabgab at gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> wow.
>> I just acknowledged that Casey was right and I should have been
>> more careful.
>> Do you really feel I was aggressive in that?
>>      
> Gabor - it's probably just that it was read as sarcastic rather than
> literal - it's far too easy to misconstrue these sorts of things
> without any context other than the text.
>
> Thanks for trying to improve the state of the community. =-)
>    

If it was intended literally, then I apologize, and note that, as ever 
email proves to be a poor communication mechanism.  That said, as an 
explanation, I read "and then waited a month" as publicly sarcastically 
criticizing someone who is volunteering his time to our (worthy, I 
generally think) cause, following on the heels of publicly criticizing 
his PM group and pondering it's removal from active groups for one 
violation.

And then, of course, I'm guilty of publicly criticizing you (although, I 
was trying to criticize the behavior, but I don't think it came out that 
way), similarly.  That was a poor move, and I apologize for how it came out.

I understand the frustration in dealing with best-intentioned volunteers 
who run out of time or steam (I'm guilty of it quite often -- both 
volunteering and failing, and treating volunteers poorly), but after all 
of the discussion at YAPC about being more welcoming and expanding our 
user-base (and contributors, volunteers, etc), it struck me as 
particularly bad example of unwelcoming behavior.

jon

-- 
.Jonathan J. Miner------------------Division of Information Technology.
|miner at doit.wisc.edu                 University Of Wisconsin - Madison|
|608/262.9655                               Room 3148 Computer Science|
`---------------------------------------------------------------------'


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From miner at doit.wisc.edu  Wed Jul  7 15:41:07 2010
From: miner at doit.wisc.edu (Jon Miner)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:41:07 -0500
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <4C350283.1060306@doit.wisc.edu>

So, following some side conversation, it has been pointed out that I (in 
my words), in my attempt to be volunteer friendly and inclusive, have 
been being completely culturally, socially and linguistically insensitive..

See, I'm from the midwest USA, where we (obviously, I'm being overly 
broad to illustrate the point) never confront people, and where being 
direct is viewed as impolite (so instead we weasel around, usually not 
saying what we mean.)  In other areas of the US, to say nothing of the 
world, this isn't true.  What I took offense to is perfectly normal and 
acceptable in other places, and my style wouldn't be effective at all, 
and would be seen as a sign of a poor leader.

So, my apologies to Gabor and anybody else who I may have offended in my 
attempt to save people from being offended (that's always how it works, 
isn't it...)

But, it does bring up an interesting question to me, which is how to 
handle this sort of worldwide volunteer system?   I'm sure there are 
some of us who have dealt with this before, do you have suggestions, if 
only for me to help understand better?  I've been a fairly successful 
volunteer organizer, leader and administrator on the local level, but 
obviously have things to learn.

jon

On 7/7/10 11:28 AM, Jon Miner wrote:
> On 7/7/10 10:19 AM, Will Coleda wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Gabor Szabo<szabgab at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> wow.
>>> I just acknowledged that Casey was right and I should have been
>>> more careful.
>>> Do you really feel I was aggressive in that?
>> Gabor - it's probably just that it was read as sarcastic rather than
>> literal - it's far too easy to misconstrue these sorts of things
>> without any context other than the text.
>>
>> Thanks for trying to improve the state of the community. =-)
>
> If it was intended literally, then I apologize, and note that, as ever 
> email proves to be a poor communication mechanism.  That said, as an 
> explanation, I read "and then waited a month" as publicly 
> sarcastically criticizing someone who is volunteering his time to our 
> (worthy, I generally think) cause, following on the heels of publicly 
> criticizing his PM group and pondering it's removal from active groups 
> for one violation.
>
> And then, of course, I'm guilty of publicly criticizing you (although, 
> I was trying to criticize the behavior, but I don't think it came out 
> that way), similarly.  That was a poor move, and I apologize for how 
> it came out.
>
> I understand the frustration in dealing with best-intentioned 
> volunteers who run out of time or steam (I'm guilty of it quite often 
> -- both volunteering and failing, and treating volunteers poorly), but 
> after all of the discussion at YAPC about being more welcoming and 
> expanding our user-base (and contributors, volunteers, etc), it struck 
> me as particularly bad example of unwelcoming behavior.
>
> jon
>

-- 
.Jonathan J. Miner------------------Division of Information Technology.
|miner at doit.wisc.edu                 University Of Wisconsin - Madison|
|608/262.9655                               Room 3148 Computer Science|
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From szabgab at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 00:29:44 2010
From: szabgab at gmail.com (Gabor Szabo)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 10:29:44 +0300
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <4C350283.1060306@doit.wisc.edu>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu> <4C350283.1060306@doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimD6caUygSRlF6p8K8VflRGJzzFm2tHs-fylPhN@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Jon Miner <miner at doit.wisc.edu> wrote:
> So, following some side conversation, it has been pointed out that I (in my
> words), in my attempt to be volunteer friendly and inclusive, have been
> being completely culturally, socially and linguistically insensitive..
>
> See, I'm from the midwest USA, where we (obviously, I'm being overly broad
> to illustrate the point) never confront people, and where being direct is
> viewed as impolite (so instead we weasel around, usually not saying what we
> mean.) ?In other areas of the US, to say nothing of the world, this isn't
> true. ?What I took offense to is perfectly normal and acceptable in other
> places, and my style wouldn't be effective at all, and would be seen as a
> sign of a poor leader.
>
> So, my apologies to Gabor and anybody else who I may have offended in my
> attempt to save people from being offended (that's always how it works,
> isn't it...)

thank you!

In my turn I'd also like to apologize to Eric, this time on the list, for
jumping to conclusions so fast.

You see, I have dealt with about 150 inactive PM groups in the past half
a year and it is not too exciting to look for contact info for someone.
It is very frustrating that my todo list is full of "check in 2 weeks
if I got a reply".
I was actually happy that the e-mail bounced as that meant I could
remove the group without further waiting.
Luckily he noticed my mail to this list and we resolved the issue within
a few hours.

I'd also like to apologize to Casey. Reading my comment again
I can now see how it could be taken as sarcastic.

> But, it does bring up an interesting question to me, which is how to handle
> this sort of worldwide volunteer system? ? I'm sure there are some of us who
> have dealt with this before, do you have suggestions, if only for me to help
> understand better? ?I've been a fairly successful volunteer organizer,
> leader and administrator on the local level, but obviously have things to
> learn.

I don't have answers here but let me just say how I saw the messages.
I have no idea if that's how they were meant and if that's how people who
grew up with English as their mother tongue and in a different sub-culture
saw them.

The responses of Casey, looked like a very paternalistic one. Almost as
bad as if he sent me a link like this one: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Eric+Andreychek
Instead of just contacting Eric and letting him know I was looking for him.
I guess, the Americans on the list did not feel that way, so I am just
saying this
to show how easily thing can be misunderstood.

Then Jon commented:

"So, how much is he being paid to maintain the site,
and of that pay, how much of his time is being paid
to make sure the site is perfectly maintained and up to date?"

Now that looked very aggressive to me. Even if my message was
taken as sarcastic, I don't understand what brought the frustration
of Jon to that level. I felt like someone is punching my face and
shouting at me "YOU ARE AGGRESSIVE!".[1]
Others might have perceived his reaction as totally in place,
and we are now ok with Jon, I am just saying for our cross culture
educational purpose.

I wonder if this was just a general comment or was that meant to
also relate to the recent grant proposal I submitted? Does that
mean that if the grant is approved I effectively won't be able
to talk to PM leaders and people will see me as trying to
boss around? (Hopefully that's in English).


In any case, regardless of grants or not I'll need to be
more careful when sending these "PM group seem to be inactive"
messages.

regards
   Gabor
[1] I keep trying to make sure I only comment on the behavior of someone
instead of criticizing the person himself but frankly I think in most cases
when you are on the receiving end you will not notice the difference.

From casey at geeknest.com  Thu Jul  8 08:02:14 2010
From: casey at geeknest.com (Casey West)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:02:14 -0400
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimD6caUygSRlF6p8K8VflRGJzzFm2tHs-fylPhN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu> <4C350283.1060306@doit.wisc.edu> 
	<AANLkTimD6caUygSRlF6p8K8VflRGJzzFm2tHs-fylPhN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilg5mWXcUC6ylDtctO3NZRwI2rcToUWj8v_X26D@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 3:29 AM, Gabor Szabo <szabgab at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd also like to apologize to Casey. Reading my comment again
> I can now see how it could be taken as sarcastic.
>

For what it's worth I didn't read it that way, Gabor.

Cheers,

Casey West
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From miner at doit.wisc.edu  Thu Jul  8 14:39:59 2010
From: miner at doit.wisc.edu (Jon Miner)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 16:39:59 -0500
Subject: [yapc] Anyone interested in crashing CPOSC in October?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimD6caUygSRlF6p8K8VflRGJzzFm2tHs-fylPhN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C21835E.6040001@mail.nih.gov>
	<AANLkTimAFDWulXUmwonpSpCU4gzlF_4x6qtQ_zJX98eY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinBs7dK44W7kH2sAWpVqlfeoBkeuOt94t4Pca6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilcZl8XFnXEyVk_PX4cY0dAeui7yNmvTnjBgJdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim9JqiyQmAF0jG8DSpE6GzwzErWbRwSc9dzppKp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3493AC.5050203@jjminer.org>
	<AANLkTilJH4xDuQ9q4bhv3qw02iD-GSJVc8bPcUIzqu1B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimFD0xmj-23Cips_JJdN9uizoP7Ku8c8MVu0l1p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34AB2B.6000606@doit.wisc.edu> <4C350283.1060306@doit.wisc.edu>
	<AANLkTimD6caUygSRlF6p8K8VflRGJzzFm2tHs-fylPhN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3645AF.3090307@doit.wisc.edu>

On 7/8/10 2:29 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
> Then Jon commented:
> "So, how much is he being paid to maintain the site,
> and of that pay, how much of his time is being paid
> to make sure the site is perfectly maintained and up to date?"
>
> Now that looked very aggressive to me. Even if my message was
> taken as sarcastic, I don't understand what brought the frustration
> of Jon to that level. I felt like someone is punching my face and
> shouting at me "YOU ARE AGGRESSIVE!".[1]
> Others might have perceived his reaction as totally in place,
> and we are now ok with Jon, I am just saying for our cross culture
> educational purpose.
>    

Yup, I sent that and then realized that the whole thing was spiraling 
out of control..  :)

> I wonder if this was just a general comment or was that meant to
> also relate to the recent grant proposal I submitted? Does that
> mean that if the grant is approved I effectively won't be able
> to talk to PM leaders and people will see me as trying to
> boss around? (Hopefully that's in English).
>    

No, I didn't mean it like that, yet another casualty of over-generalization.

It's something I like to use on myself when I find myself getting worked 
up about a volunteer who is falling behind, in an attempt to not lose 
track of the fact that people have lives outside of whatever volunteer 
work I'm wanting them to do, since usually family and work have to come 
before the volunteering.  If I were a paying customer, I could have 
higher expectations (that isn't to say that we don't usually get 
excellent service from volunteers and horrible service from paid 
consultants, just that my expectations need to be adjusted.)

In my other life, I'm the technical director (unpaid) of a theatre that 
is collectively owned by a bunch of theatre companies, so I get stuck 
both in the frustrated position of trying to rely on unpaid volunteers 
specing and doing repair work, and as the unpaid volunteer that the 
boards are demanding get extensive work done.  (We have one overworked 
actual employee in the whole place, it's all she can do to make sure 
that the bills get paid and that the doors open..)

jon

-- 
.Jonathan J. Miner------------------Division of Information Technology.
|miner at doit.wisc.edu                 University Of Wisconsin - Madison|
|608/262.9655                               Room 3148 Computer Science|
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From barbie at missbarbell.co.uk  Thu Jul 22 10:22:28 2010
From: barbie at missbarbell.co.uk (Barbie)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:22:28 +0100
Subject: [yapc] YAPC::NA 2010 Conference Survey Open
In-Reply-To: <20100623223031.GA8449@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <20100623223031.GA8449@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100722172228.GA18380@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>

Hi folks,

Note that the surveys close tomorrow, so if you still want to complete
the main conference survey or any of the talk evaluations, you still
have just over 36 hours to do so.

Results will be posted next week.

Cheers,
Barbie.
-- 
Birmingham Perl Mongers <http://birmingham.pm.org>
Memoirs Of A Roadie <http://barbie.missbarbell.co.uk>
CPAN Testers Blog <http://blog.cpantesters.org>
YAPC Conference Surveys <http://yapc-surveys.org>
Ark Appreciation Pages <http://ark.eology.org>



From barbie at missbarbell.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 12:48:18 2010
From: barbie at missbarbell.co.uk (Barbie)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:48:18 +0100
Subject: [yapc] YAPC::NA 2010 Conference Survey Open
In-Reply-To: <20100722172228.GA18380@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <20100623223031.GA8449@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<20100722172228.GA18380@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100727194818.GF11947@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>

Hi folks,

Speaker mails have just been sent. Please let me know if you were a
speaker and don't get your mail detailing the feedback.

In addition the results of the main Conference Survey are now online.

http://yapc-surveys.org/html/yn2010-survey.html

Enjoy!

Barbie.
-- 
Birmingham Perl Mongers <http://birmingham.pm.org>
Memoirs Of A Roadie <http://barbie.missbarbell.co.uk>
CPAN Testers Blog <http://blog.cpantesters.org>
YAPC Conference Surveys <http://yapc-surveys.org>
Ark Appreciation Pages <http://ark.eology.org>



From karen-perl at martian.org  Tue Jul 27 20:22:49 2010
From: karen-perl at martian.org (Karen Pauley)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:22:49 +0900
Subject: [yapc] YAPC::NA 2010 Conference Survey Open
In-Reply-To: <20100727194818.GF11947@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <20100623223031.GA8449@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<20100722172228.GA18380@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<20100727194818.GF11947@smtp.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinD-b+K-dZz0kTfTEdi1-kb48xy3B85R3pFqBn0@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 July 2010 04:48, Barbie <barbie at missbarbell.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Speaker mails have just been sent. Please let me know if you were a
> speaker and don't get your mail detailing the feedback.

Thanks for sending these out.  I really appreciate receiving the
feedback before YAPC::EU where I will be presenting one of the talks
again.

All the best,

Karen