From grant at mclean.net.nz Sat Aug 4 23:16:51 2012 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 18:16:51 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Social meeting *next* week Message-ID: <1344147411.13102.4.camel@kereru> Hi Mongers Just a quick heads-up - the next meeting of Wellington Perl mongers is not this week, but *next* Tuesday - the 14th. This is in keeping with our usual "second Tuesday of the month" schedule - but some of us may have got our maths wrong and assumed it was this week :-) Cheers Grant From jarich at perltraining.com.au Sun Aug 5 22:59:40 2012 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:59:40 +1000 Subject: [Wellington-pm] OSDC Call for papers closes on Wednesday! (8th August) Message-ID: <501F5D4C.7070902@perltraining.com.au> G'day folk, Just a reminder that the OSDC CFP is still marked to close on Wednesday, 8th August. I hope you've got your proposals in. Had publicity happened correctly, you might have got the following message about 2 months ago. But either way, it's time to submit! J ---------------------- Hi This year's OSDC organising team in Sydney is pleased to announce that the call for papers for OSDC 2012 has officially opened, and we would like to invite you to submit an abstract for a talk at Australia's premier Open Source annual conference. OSDC is a grass-roots style conference by developers for developers. If you're developing something that's Open Source, or you are using Open Source tools within your business, this conference is for you. The Call for Papers can be found at: http://www.osdc.com.au/call-for-papers CfP closes 8 August, 2012 This year, for four days starting December 4th, the Open Source Developers Conference is taking place in Sydney at the University of Technology, Broadway Campus. December 5th-8th is the main conference, and as is tradition with OSDC there will be a dinner event for all attendees (Thursday evening, December 6th). December 4th will be a CMS Expo day, noting the importance of Content Management Systems in the current web environment. The day will be based around skill sharing tutorials, case studies and talks from contributors in Open Source CMS projects. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact us info (at) osdc (dot) com (dot) au http://www.osdc.com.au/ On behalf of the OSDC 2012 Sydney organising team, AimeeMaree Forsstrom From grant at mclean.net.nz Mon Aug 13 14:17:25 2012 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:17:25 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Social meeting tonight Message-ID: <1344892645.22569.17.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Hi Mongers The August meeting of Wellington Perl Mongers is a social meeting this evening. In keeping with tradition, the 'plan' is to meet at JJ Murphys (119 Cuba St) for beer and then move on for a curry later in the evening. I'll aim to head down there about 5:30ish. Cheers Grant From grant at mclean.net.nz Mon Aug 27 00:59:48 2012 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:59:48 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Meeting in 2 weeks Message-ID: <1346054388.5860.6.camel@kereru> Hi Mongers The next meeting of Wellington Perl Mongers is scheduled for Tuesday the 11th of September. As yet I have not had any volunteers to speak, so if you want to tell us something then please let me know. Cheers Grant From enkidu at cliffp.com Wed Aug 29 02:44:47 2012 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliffp) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:44:47 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst Message-ID: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> Just interested, does anyone use the Catalyst Web Framework? I'm currently playing around with it, to see if I like it enough. I've also been looking at Django, but that runs on the other p-thing that we don't talk about, so I'm not keen. I've also been reading about RoR. RoR and Catalyst seem to be somewhat similar and Django is, well, slicker, but it's written in that other thing, and that is a big negative so far as I'm concerned. Cheers, Cliff From kentfredric at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 03:10:34 2012 From: kentfredric at gmail.com (Kent Fredric) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:10:34 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> Message-ID: On 29 August 2012 21:44, Cliffp wrote: > Just interested, does anyone use the Catalyst Web Framework? > > I'm currently playing around with it, to see if I like it enough. I've also > been looking at Django, but that runs on the other p-thing that we don't > talk about, so I'm not keen. I've also been reading about RoR. RoR and > Catalyst seem to be somewhat similar and Django is, well, slicker, but it's > written in that other thing, and that is a big negative so far as I'm > concerned. I haven't really made any real projects on Catalyst myself yet, mostly just the cognitive overhead of managing it at present seem too high wrt/ learning curves. Its easier ( for me at least ) to use something slightly more reductionist, like Dancer ( https://metacpan.org/module/Dancer ) , which seems to be easier to get your feet wet with and Just Start Doing Something Now. Mojolicious also should be given an honourable consideration ( https://metacpan.org/module/Mojolicious ), but its definatly not my cup of tea, because of its very unperlish way of doing things ( Namingly, being entirely self contained with 0 dependencies. Mojolicious tout this being a perk, but I see it as being PHP grade "NIH" braindeaded mentality, which only seems like a reasonable request if your deploying a project on a server you have little to no control of, or have some other painful problem with dealing with dependencies. But if you're happy running production using Perlbrew'd Perls ( https://metacpan.org/release/App-perlbrew ), and are pretty comfortable with Modern Perl practices like local::lib ( https://metacpan.org/release/local-lib ) and/or comfortable with cpanm ( https://metacpan.org/release/App-cpanminus ), then I don't personally see why you'd *choose* a framework that is inherently designed as to *not* be a native part of a perl ecosystem. But of course it always comes down to what your specific needs and requirements are. If all you know about deployment is "They have Perl 5.8 and you have to deploy by FTPing zip files to the server, where some monkey who doesn't know the code unzips it and hopes it works", then Mojolicious might be a safer bet. -- Kent perl -e "print substr( \"edrgmaM SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\", \$_ * 3, 3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );" http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz From martyn at dollyfish.net.nz Wed Aug 29 03:14:12 2012 From: martyn at dollyfish.net.nz (Martyn Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:14:12 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> Message-ID: I've used Catalyst for a bunch of different projects (I even wrote a few plugins for it) I'm fairly sure a number of people at Catalyst (the company in Wellington) use Catalyst (the web framework) too :-) -- Martyn On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Cliffp wrote: > Just interested, does anyone use the Catalyst Web Framework? > > I'm currently playing around with it, to see if I like it enough. I've > also been looking at Django, but that runs on the other p-thing that we > don't talk about, so I'm not keen. I've also been reading about RoR. RoR > and Catalyst seem to be somewhat similar and Django is, well, slicker, but > it's written in that other thing, and that is a big negative so far as I'm > concerned. > > Cheers, > > Cliff > ______________________________**_________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/wellington-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nigel at mcnie.name Wed Aug 29 13:03:27 2012 From: nigel at mcnie.name (Nigel McNie) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:03:27 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> Message-ID: Catalyst user here too. Built a startup on it (I know at least one other person on this list has done that too). It gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself with. Depends entirely on you as to whether that's a good thing or not. I'd personally recommend staying well away from DBIx::Class for your Model. Also, beware the IRC channel. Mr. is a grumpy sod. On 29 August 2012 22:14, Martyn Smith wrote: > I've used Catalyst for a bunch of different projects (I even wrote a few > plugins for it) > > I'm fairly sure a number of people at Catalyst (the company in Wellington) > use Catalyst (the web framework) too :-) > > -- > Martyn > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Cliffp wrote: > >> Just interested, does anyone use the Catalyst Web Framework? >> >> I'm currently playing around with it, to see if I like it enough. I've >> also been looking at Django, but that runs on the other p-thing that we >> don't talk about, so I'm not keen. I've also been reading about RoR. RoR >> and Catalyst seem to be somewhat similar and Django is, well, slicker, but >> it's written in that other thing, and that is a big negative so far as I'm >> concerned. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Cliff >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Wellington-pm mailing list >> Wellington-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/wellington-pm >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wellington-pm mailing list > Wellington-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/wellington-pm > -- Regards, Nigel McNie http://nigel.mcnie.name/ | +64 27 469 6038 | http://twitter.com/nigelmcnie My latest blog post: http://nigel.mcnie.name/blog/hugh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grant at mclean.net.nz Wed Aug 29 14:17:41 2012 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:17:41 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> Message-ID: <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> I've done a small amount of work with the Catalyst framework. It's definitely less constraining than Rails. Which in some ways is a good thing and other ways a bit frustrating. In Catalyst it's not always obvious which is the best component to choose. In Rails, if you're even making a choice your straying from the well trodden path. In my experience it's definitely easier to get something up and running quickly with Dancer than Catalyst. And there will probably be less code with Dancer too. Whether this scales as complexity increases I can't say yet. On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 08:03 +1200, Nigel McNie wrote: > Catalyst user here too. Built a startup on it (I know at least one > other person on this list has done that too). It gives you a lot of > rope to hang yourself with. Depends entirely on you as to whether > that's a good thing or not. Agreed. > > I'd personally recommend staying well away from DBIx::Class for your > Model. I don't entirely agree with that advice. I've found DBIx::Class to be very useful for handling the annoying details of putting together inserts and updates. If you're comfortable with SQL then you're better off avoiding DBIx::Class for queries. If you're not comfortable with SQL then you're better off learning more about SQL. > > Also, beware the IRC channel. Mr. is a grumpy sod. He's trying to turn over a new leaf (now a "recovering asshole") so if you feel he is poorly treating you then let him know. http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/on-not-being-a-problem/ Cheers Grant From nigel at mcnie.name Wed Aug 29 14:25:31 2012 From: nigel at mcnie.name (Nigel McNie) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:25:31 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: On 30 August 2012 09:17, Grant McLean wrote: > > On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 08:03 +1200, Nigel McNie wrote: > > > > > I'd personally recommend staying well away from DBIx::Class for your > > Model. > > I don't entirely agree with that advice. I've found DBIx::Class to be > very useful for handling the annoying details of putting together > inserts and updates. If you're comfortable with SQL then you're better > off avoiding DBIx::Class for queries. If you're not comfortable with > SQL then you're better off learning more about SQL. > Thus... stay away from DBIx::Class? :) -- Regards, Nigel McNie http://nigel.mcnie.name/ | +64 27 469 6038 | http://twitter.com/nigelmcnie My latest blog post: http://nigel.mcnie.name/blog/hugh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chilts at appsattic.com Wed Aug 29 14:48:07 2012 From: chilts at appsattic.com (Andrew Chilton) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:48:07 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: On 30 August 2012 09:25, Nigel McNie wrote: > Thus... stay away from DBIx::Class? :) This is orthogonal to what Grant said. I took it as "if you do know SQL, great, if you don't know SQL then learn some". At that point, make an informed decision about what you're going to use, rather than using or not using something blindly. :) Which I think is good. I'd say the same for Catalyst and Dancer. Learn something about them before choosing. We're all opinionated suckers so our responses will always be one way or the other. I prefer to say learn something first then start making your own decisions based on skillset, what you know and (of course) other people's opinions. Cheers, Andy -- Andrew Chilton e: chilts at appsattic.com w: http://appsattic.com/ t: https://twitter.com/andychilton From enkidu at cliffp.com Thu Aug 30 14:18:38 2012 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliffp) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 09:18:38 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <503FD8AE.5070008@cliffp.com> On 30/08/12 09:48, Andrew Chilton wrote: > On 30 August 2012 09:25, Nigel McNie wrote: >> Thus... stay away from DBIx::Class? :) > > This is orthogonal to what Grant said. I took it as "if you do know > SQL, great, if you don't know SQL then learn some". At that point, > make an informed decision about what you're going to use, rather than > using or not using something blindly. :) > > Which I think is good. I'd say the same for Catalyst and Dancer. Learn > something about them before choosing. We're all opinionated suckers so > our responses will always be one way or the other. I prefer to say > learn something first then start making your own decisions based on > skillset, what you know and (of course) other people's opinions. > Yes Andrew, I agree. I prefer to use a package's bits and bobs in the way that the writer of the package intended just in case I miss the subleties of the reasons why he did it that way (which may be idiosyncratic of course) and then when I know enough about the package, I can decide to do things another way if I want. Must look at Dancer. Cheers, Cliff From dan.horne at redbone.co.nz Thu Aug 30 16:24:10 2012 From: dan.horne at redbone.co.nz (Dan Horne) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 11:24:10 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: > > >> > Thus... stay away from DBIx::Class? :) > > I've found DBIx::Class ideal for portablility across various RDBMS vendors. It was really useful for abstracting away date and datetime differences, pagination, etc. But if the SQL itself is complicated, it's sometimes hard to figure out how to express the DBIx::Class equivalent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at catalyst.net.nz Thu Aug 30 19:37:19 2012 From: travis at catalyst.net.nz (William Travis Holton) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:37:19 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <1346380639.11646.37.camel@weissbier.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Like everything, it is really a matter of personal taste. Catalyst is fine and has lots of cool features. However, I would definitely recommend giving Mojolicious a try. I (personally) think the syntax for controllers looks a little nicer than Catalyst (eg. you don't have to drag around the extra "$c" context variable everywhere). Although, I admit my experience with it is fairly limited. On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 09:17 +1200, Grant McLean wrote: > > I'd personally recommend staying well away from DBIx::Class for your > > Model. This is also matter of personal taste. I've used DBIx::Class on a very large project for several years and never had a problem with it, even for relatively complex SQL. I always found it particularly useful for keeping my db code modular which I feel in turn makes it much easier to test and reuse. From enkidu at cliffp.com Fri Aug 31 01:00:17 2012 From: enkidu at cliffp.com (Cliffp) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 20:00:17 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <1346380639.11646.37.camel@weissbier.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <1346380639.11646.37.camel@weissbier.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> Message-ID: <50406F11.3060509@cliffp.com> On 31/08/12 14:37, William Travis Holton wrote: > > Like everything, it is really a matter of personal taste. Catalyst > is fine and has lots of cool features. However, I would definitely > recommend giving Mojolicious a try. I (personally) think the syntax > for controllers looks a little nicer than Catalyst (eg. you don't > have to drag around the extra "$c" context variable everywhere). > Although, I admit my experience with it is fairly limited. > I saw that ($c) and thought that it was pretty cool. But maybe I'm easily pleased? Cheers, Cliff From travis at catalyst.net.nz Fri Aug 31 02:00:49 2012 From: travis at catalyst.net.nz (Travis Holton) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:00:49 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <50406F11.3060509@cliffp.com> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <1346380639.11646.37.camel@weissbier.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <50406F11.3060509@cliffp.com> Message-ID: <50407D41.6060703@catalyst.net.nz> On 31.08.2012 8:00 PM, Cliffp wrote: > On 31/08/12 14:37, William Travis Holton wrote: >> >> Like everything, it is really a matter of personal taste. Catalyst >> is fine and has lots of cool features. However, I would definitely >> recommend giving Mojolicious a try. I (personally) think the syntax >> for controllers looks a little nicer than Catalyst (eg. you don't >> have to drag around the extra "$c" context variable everywhere). >> Although, I admit my experience with it is fairly limited. >> > I saw that ($c) and thought that it was pretty cool. But maybe I'm > easily pleased? > I didn't want to imply that $c is bad. I just think it's a bit redundant that you always have to pass that extra parameter around. In mojolicious at least, the context stuff is in $self directly. From grant at mclean.net.nz Fri Aug 31 03:18:43 2012 From: grant at mclean.net.nz (Grant McLean) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:18:43 +1200 Subject: [Wellington-pm] Catalyst In-Reply-To: <50407D41.6060703@catalyst.net.nz> References: <503DE48F.5060604@cliffp.com> <1346275061.12679.15.camel@putnam.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <1346380639.11646.37.camel@weissbier.wgtn.cat-it.co.nz> <50406F11.3060509@cliffp.com> <50407D41.6060703@catalyst.net.nz> Message-ID: <1346408323.30659.2.camel@kereru> On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 21:00 +1200, Travis Holton wrote: > On 31.08.2012 8:00 PM, Cliffp wrote: > > On 31/08/12 14:37, William Travis Holton wrote: > >> > >> Like everything, it is really a matter of personal taste. Catalyst > >> is fine and has lots of cool features. However, I would definitely > >> recommend giving Mojolicious a try. I (personally) think the syntax > >> for controllers looks a little nicer than Catalyst (eg. you don't > >> have to drag around the extra "$c" context variable everywhere). > >> Although, I admit my experience with it is fairly limited. > >> > > I saw that ($c) and thought that it was pretty cool. But maybe I'm > > easily pleased? > > > I didn't want to imply that $c is bad. I just think it's a bit redundant > that you always have to pass that extra parameter around. In mojolicious > at least, the context stuff is in $self directly. And in Dancer you don't need $self or $c. Grant