From weiss at foo.at  Wed Sep  4 11:37:58 2013
From: weiss at foo.at (Stefan Weiss)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 20:37:58 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Unterschied zwischen ^C und normalem exit
Message-ID: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at>

Ein kurzes (fiktives) Beispiel f?r eine Passworteingabe, bei der die
getippten Zeichen nicht angezeigt werden sollen:

    my $pass;
    print "Enter password: ";
    system "stty", "-echo";
    sysread STDIN, $pass, 100;   # A
    system "stty", "echo";       # B
    chomp $pass;
    print "\npass = |$pass|\n";

Wenn die Zeile B auskommentiert wird, dann bleibt die "-echo"
Einstellung nach dem Skriptende im Terminal bestehen. Wenn ich aber
stattdessen w?hrend der Passworteingabe (Zeile A) das Skript mit ^C
abbreche, dann nicht, obwohl die Zeile B dann auch nicht ausgef?hrt wird.

Was macht da den Unterschied aus?

lg,
stefan

-- 
LOAD"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!",8,1
RUN!

From domm at cpan.org  Wed Sep  4 13:01:46 2013
From: domm at cpan.org (Thomas Klausner)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 22:01:46 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Unterschied zwischen ^C und normalem exit
In-Reply-To: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at>
References: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at>
Message-ID: <20130904200146.GX12955@plix.at>

Hi!

On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 08:37:58PM +0200, Stefan Weiss wrote:
> Ein kurzes (fiktives) Beispiel f?r eine Passworteingabe, bei der die
> getippten Zeichen nicht angezeigt werden sollen:

Keine Antwort auf deine Frage, aber was spricht gegen Term::ReadKey im 
Mode 2 ?

perl -MTerm::ReadKey -E 'ReadMode 2; print "Enter password: ";$pass = 
ReadLine 0; chomp $pass; say "\npass = |$pass|"; ReadMode 0';

Schoene Gruesse,
Thomas



-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}

From weiss at foo.at  Wed Sep  4 13:41:12 2013
From: weiss at foo.at (Stefan Weiss)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 22:41:12 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Unterschied zwischen ^C und normalem exit
In-Reply-To: <20130904200146.GX12955@plix.at>
References: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at> <20130904200146.GX12955@plix.at>
Message-ID: <52279AE8.9000407@foo.at>

On 2013-09-04 22:01, Thomas Klausner wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 08:37:58PM +0200, Stefan Weiss wrote:
>> Ein kurzes (fiktives) Beispiel f?r eine Passworteingabe, bei der die
>> getippten Zeichen nicht angezeigt werden sollen:
> 
> Keine Antwort auf deine Frage, aber was spricht gegen Term::ReadKey im 
> Mode 2 ?
> 
> perl -MTerm::ReadKey -E 'ReadMode 2; print "Enter password: ";$pass = 
> ReadLine 0; chomp $pass; say "\npass = |$pass|"; ReadMode 0';

Ist wie gesagt nur ein fiktives Beispiel. Mit Term::ReadKey habe ich das
bisher auch gemacht. Ich habe eigentlich gar kein aktuelles Problem
damit, ich frage nur aus Interesse.

Mir geht eher ein Problem ab, wenn man das so sagen kann. Vielleicht
t?usche ich mich auch, aber ich bilde mir ein, dass ein INT w?hrend
einer versteckten Passworteingabe fr?her zu Problemen gef?hrt hat, so
dass man in einem Skript das Signal abfangen und den Normalzustand
wiederherstellen musste. Scheinbar ist das aber gar nicht n?tig, bzw
nicht mehr.

lg,
stefan


-- 
LOAD"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!",8,1
RUN!

From rgiersig at cpan.org  Thu Sep  5 00:45:01 2013
From: rgiersig at cpan.org (Roland Giersig)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 09:45:01 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Unterschied zwischen ^C und normalem exit
In-Reply-To: <52279AE8.9000407@foo.at>
References: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at> <20130904200146.GX12955@plix.at>
	<52279AE8.9000407@foo.at>
Message-ID: <CAPC4bVZQSQ7pu0v=u3-ZUxmqKr6Cba6zf-0gAYt5sV+Wt0hytg@mail.gmail.com>

Vielleicht haben die Betriebssystem-oder Perl-Bauenden dazu gelernt und dem
Default-Signalhandler bei SIGINT einen Terminal-Reset spendiert... :-)



Am 4. September 2013 22:41 schrieb Stefan Weiss <weiss at foo.at>:

> On 2013-09-04 22:01, Thomas Klausner wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 08:37:58PM +0200, Stefan Weiss wrote:
> >> Ein kurzes (fiktives) Beispiel f?r eine Passworteingabe, bei der die
> >> getippten Zeichen nicht angezeigt werden sollen:
> >
> > Keine Antwort auf deine Frage, aber was spricht gegen Term::ReadKey im
> > Mode 2 ?
> >
> > perl -MTerm::ReadKey -E 'ReadMode 2; print "Enter password: ";$pass =
> > ReadLine 0; chomp $pass; say "\npass = |$pass|"; ReadMode 0';
>
> Ist wie gesagt nur ein fiktives Beispiel. Mit Term::ReadKey habe ich das
> bisher auch gemacht. Ich habe eigentlich gar kein aktuelles Problem
> damit, ich frage nur aus Interesse.
>
> Mir geht eher ein Problem ab, wenn man das so sagen kann. Vielleicht
> t?usche ich mich auch, aber ich bilde mir ein, dass ein INT w?hrend
> einer versteckten Passworteingabe fr?her zu Problemen gef?hrt hat, so
> dass man in einem Skript das Signal abfangen und den Normalzustand
> wiederherstellen musste. Scheinbar ist das aber gar nicht n?tig, bzw
> nicht mehr.
>
> lg,
> stefan
>
>
> --
> LOAD"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!",8,1
> RUN!
> _______________________________________________
> Vienna-pm mailing list
> Vienna-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/vienna-pm
>
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From nick at ccl4.org  Tue Sep 17 03:34:53 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 11:34:53 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
Message-ID: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>

    Robot Turtles is a board game you play with your favorite 3-8 year
    old. It sneakily teaches programming fundamentals.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danshapiro/robot-turtles-the-board-game-for-little-programmer


I am intrigued by this. Partly because someone (can't find the attribution)
commented that for an adult, children's games seem to partition either into
pure chance (E has at least one like this) or where the adult is subtly
trying to loose*. So this looks like fun, even without the ulterior motive**


So, anyway, I believe that I want to purchase one. ONE. Problem is that
with the international shipping, purchasing one is not very cost effective.
(ie $60)

There is a "3-pack", which is $120 including shipping, and a "Deca-pack",
which is $340. These look viable, as they bring the unit cost down to
something like the price of a regular new board game (eg Settlers of Catan
or Monopoly ship from amazon.de for about 30 EUR)


One niggle here is that I can read that if I were to ship stuff to the UK,
tax and import duty are both payable. It's 20% VAT on anything over ?15, and
"phone us up, because we make it way too complicated with 14000 categories"%
(typically 5-9%) import duty for anything over ?135

1) I don't know how to find the relevant numbers for Austria

2) If I assume that VAT is unavoidably going to be charged, at 20%, but only
   on the games, not the shipping, then the price actually isn't terrible:

   3-pack:  $80 * 1.2 + $40    = $136 = EUR 101.78 =   EUR 33.93 each
   10-pack: $240 * 1.2 + $100  = $388 = EUR 290.38 =   EUR 29.04 each

3) So, is anyone else interested?

4) What is the threshold for paying duty? And the rate?
   The UK rates work out that (I think) duty has to reach 23% before the
   10-pack is more expensive than the below-threshold 3-pack.

5) What is the charge that gets made by the delivery firm for collecting
   the duty?

Nicholas Clark

*  Somehow my grandmother was even able to loose at Snakes and Ladders, which
   is strange give that it is a game of pure chance. This takes *real* skill.
** Programming is a useful skill. E needs to go to work, so that I can
   continue to have ice cream. :-)

From domm at cpan.org  Tue Sep 17 04:12:28 2013
From: domm at cpan.org (Thomas Klausner)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:12:28 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130917111228.GB4175@plix.at>

Hi!

On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 11:34:53AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
 
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danshapiro/robot-turtles-the-board-game-for-little-programmer


> I am intrigued by this. Partly because someone (can't find the attribution)
> commented that for an adult, children's games seem to partition either into
> pure chance (E has at least one like this) or where the adult is subtly
> trying to loose*. So this looks like fun, even without the ulterior motive**

That's not true. There are lots of games where youngish kids (ok, 
probably not E's age, but 6-8+) have good chances of winning without 
just having luck. (of course you'll have to train them a bit first)

Here are two other "programming-like" games (I (or I and Samo) own both, 
so you could borrow them):
Robot Rally
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18/roborally
(I don't agree with 12+, I've played it with 7 year olds..)

Mutant Meeples
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/109969/mutant-meeples

And I have a nice boardgame "port" of Snake lying around for two years. 
(which was accepted for review by a Kosmos, but finally rejected for 
being a bit to complex, and even though I reworked it a bit I never got 
around to submit it to another company - but if somebody wants to 
playtest, be my guest!)

> 3) So, is anyone else interested?

Yes. My kids already have outgrown this game, but my siblings kids 
(notice the effort I wen through to avoid looking up Neffen and 
Nichten) didn't

If it's around 30/40? it's a tiny bit expensive, but what the hell.
More than 40 would be too much (if it's calculateable..)

Greetings,
domm


-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}

From r.angerer at 123people.com  Tue Sep 17 05:25:02 2013
From: r.angerer at 123people.com (Roland Angerer)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:25:02 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <52384A1E.3080105@123people.com>

Hi Nick,

I own Robo Rally and I have to say, that its even difficult for grown 
ups to master. Robot Turtles seems like a brilliant version or Robo 
Rally that you could really play with kids.

Love it - want one. Count me in if pricing is possible around ?30.

Roland Angerer

On 09/17/2013 12:34 PM, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>      Robot Turtles is a board game you play with your favorite 3-8 year
>      old. It sneakily teaches programming fundamentals.
>
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danshapiro/robot-turtles-the-board-game-for-little-programmer
>
>
> I am intrigued by this. Partly because someone (can't find the attribution)
> commented that for an adult, children's games seem to partition either into
> pure chance (E has at least one like this) or where the adult is subtly
> trying to loose*. So this looks like fun, even without the ulterior motive**
>
>
> So, anyway, I believe that I want to purchase one. ONE. Problem is that
> with the international shipping, purchasing one is not very cost effective.
> (ie $60)
>
> There is a "3-pack", which is $120 including shipping, and a "Deca-pack",
> which is $340. These look viable, as they bring the unit cost down to
> something like the price of a regular new board game (eg Settlers of Catan
> or Monopoly ship from amazon.de for about 30 EUR)
>
>
> One niggle here is that I can read that if I were to ship stuff to the UK,
> tax and import duty are both payable. It's 20% VAT on anything over ?15, and
> "phone us up, because we make it way too complicated with 14000 categories"%
> (typically 5-9%) import duty for anything over ?135
>
> 1) I don't know how to find the relevant numbers for Austria
>
> 2) If I assume that VAT is unavoidably going to be charged, at 20%, but only
>     on the games, not the shipping, then the price actually isn't terrible:
>
>     3-pack:  $80 * 1.2 + $40    = $136 = EUR 101.78 =   EUR 33.93 each
>     10-pack: $240 * 1.2 + $100  = $388 = EUR 290.38 =   EUR 29.04 each
>
> 3) So, is anyone else interested?
>
> 4) What is the threshold for paying duty? And the rate?
>     The UK rates work out that (I think) duty has to reach 23% before the
>     10-pack is more expensive than the below-threshold 3-pack.
>
> 5) What is the charge that gets made by the delivery firm for collecting
>     the duty?
>
> Nicholas Clark
>
> *  Somehow my grandmother was even able to loose at Snakes and Ladders, which
>     is strange give that it is a game of pure chance. This takes *real* skill.
> ** Programming is a useful skill. E needs to go to work, so that I can
>     continue to have ice cream. :-)
> _______________________________________________
> Vienna-pm mailing list
> Vienna-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/vienna-pm
>

-- 
Roland Angerer

123people internet services gmbh
Jakob-Haringer-Strasse 8, Techno5
5020 Salzburg
Austria

43-(0)664-6124567
r.angerer at 123people.com

From bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at  Tue Sep 17 05:29:02 2013
From: bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at (Bernd Petrovitsch)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:29:02 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917111228.GB4175@plix.at>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130917111228.GB4175@plix.at>
Message-ID: <1379420942.24420.75.camel@thorin>

Hi!

On Die, 2013-09-17 at 13:12 +0200, Thomas Klausner wrote:
[....]
> (notice the effort I wen through to avoid looking up Neffen and 
> Nichten) didn't

For future reference: it's "nephews" and "nieces" (both plural forms).

/off-topic ;-)
	Bernd
-- 
Bernd Petrovitsch                  Email : bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at
                     LUGA : http://www.luga.at


From domm at cpan.org  Tue Sep 17 11:22:30 2013
From: domm at cpan.org (Thomas Klausner)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:22:30 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Perl Workshop TODO
Message-ID: <20130917182230.GA9493@plix.at>

Hi!

Hier mal ein erster Entwurf einer TODO-Liste fuer den Perl Workshop:
http://act.useperl.at/apw2013/wiki?node=ToDo

Wer mag denn mitorganisiern und was machen?
Was fehlt auf der Liste?

Schoene Gruesse,
domm


-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}

From benjamin at tladesignz.de  Tue Sep 17 11:44:57 2013
From: benjamin at tladesignz.de (Benjamin Erhart)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:44:57 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <52384A1E.3080105@123people.com>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<52384A1E.3080105@123people.com>
Message-ID: <5238A329.6010504@tladesignz.de>

I'd like to have one too for my daughter!

So count me in and send it to Roland, we're both living in Salzburg! :-)

Cheers,

Benjamin

Am 17.09.13 14:25, schrieb Roland Angerer:
> Hi Nick,
> 
> I own Robo Rally and I have to say, that its even difficult for grown
> ups to master. Robot Turtles seems like a brilliant version or Robo
> Rally that you could really play with kids.
> 
> Love it - want one. Count me in if pricing is possible around ?30.
> 
> Roland Angerer
> 
> On 09/17/2013 12:34 PM, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>>      Robot Turtles is a board game you play with your favorite 3-8 year
>>      old. It sneakily teaches programming fundamentals.
>>
>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danshapiro/robot-turtles-the-board-game-for-little-programmer

From bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at  Wed Sep 18 03:00:07 2013
From: bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at (Bernd Petrovitsch)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:00:07 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Linuxwochenende 2013 leider abgesagt
References: <1370449347.14582.9.camel@thorin>
Message-ID: <1379498407.752.50.camel@thorin>


Hallo!

Mangels Einreichungen sehen wir uns gezwungen, das Linuxwochenende 2013
abzusagen.

F?r das Programmteam des Linuxwochenendes 2013
	Bernd Petrovitsch
-- 
"What happens when you read some doc and either it doesn't answer your
question or is demonstrably wrong? In Linux, you say "Linux sucks" and
go read the code. In Windows/Oracle/etc you say "Windows sucks" and
start banging your head against the wall."    - Denis Vlasenko on lkml



From daxim at cpan.org  Wed Sep 18 15:37:23 2013
From: daxim at cpan.org (Lars =?UTF-8?B?RMmq4bSH4bSE4bSL4bSP4bShIOi/quaLieaWrw==?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 00:37:23 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130919003723.7d52bd9c@champion.fmtyew.tk>

I'll take one, or two if necessary to complete a batch of 10, but
only under the condition that it ships with instructions in German.
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From denis.banovic at ncm.at  Thu Sep 19 08:06:18 2013
From: denis.banovic at ncm.at (Denis Banovic)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 17:06:18 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Perl Workshop TODO
In-Reply-To: <20130917182230.GA9493@plix.at>
References: <20130917182230.GA9493@plix.at>
Message-ID: <5D748E04498DCC4EA33B9AED8B7363C30A3A3616@srv-exchange.ncmintern.local>

Hi,

mein Kollege k?mmert sich um das Logo und um ein Vorschlag f?r T-Shirt print.
Catering werden wir organisieren, kommen wir hier irgendwie an einen Sponsor?

Weiters werde ich was sinnvolles f?r Fr/Sa Abend finden und ich helfe gerne beim schedulen.

Beim Tim Bounce hatte ich leider kein Gl?ck, kriegen wir noch einen anderen Star-Gast?


Lg

Denis

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Vienna-pm [mailto:vienna-pm-bounces+denis.banovic=ncm.at at pm.org] Im Auftrag von Thomas Klausner
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. September 2013 20:23
An: vienna-pm at pm.org
Betreff: [Vienna-pm] Perl Workshop TODO

Hi!

Hier mal ein erster Entwurf einer TODO-Liste fuer den Perl Workshop:
http://act.useperl.at/apw2013/wiki?node=ToDo

Wer mag denn mitorganisiern und was machen?
Was fehlt auf der Liste?

Schoene Gruesse,
domm


-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
_______________________________________________
Vienna-pm mailing list
Vienna-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/vienna-pm

From gjungwirth at sipwise.com  Thu Sep 19 08:14:54 2013
From: gjungwirth at sipwise.com (Gerhard Jungwirth)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 17:14:54 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <523B14EE.5080305@sipwise.com>

I also want one, count me in.

Greetings
Gerhard

From weiss at foo.at  Fri Sep 20 18:54:35 2013
From: weiss at foo.at (Stefan Weiss)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 03:54:35 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Unterschied zwischen ^C und normalem exit
In-Reply-To: <CAPC4bVZQSQ7pu0v=u3-ZUxmqKr6Cba6zf-0gAYt5sV+Wt0hytg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52277E06.2070807@foo.at> <20130904200146.GX12955@plix.at>
	<52279AE8.9000407@foo.at>
	<CAPC4bVZQSQ7pu0v=u3-ZUxmqKr6Cba6zf-0gAYt5sV+Wt0hytg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <523CFC5B.6000704@foo.at>

On 2013-09-05 09:45, Roland Giersig wrote:
> Vielleicht haben die Betriebssystem-oder Perl-Bauenden dazu gelernt und dem
> Default-Signalhandler bei SIGINT einen Terminal-Reset spendiert... :-)

Irgendwas muss sich wohl ge?ndert haben, und zwar mit oder ohne
Term::ReadKey. Ich hab grad beim Aufr?umen (bzw vorwiegend ersatzlos
l?schen) von alten Skripten das hier gefunden:

-----------
...

use Term::ReadKey;

...

# restore terminal in case of user abort
$SIG{INT} = sub {
    print "\n\n--- cancelled ---\n\n";
    ReadMode('normal');
    exit(0);
};

...

    # read user password
    my $pass = "";
    while (!$pass) {
        print "\nEnter SMB password for user $user: ";
        ReadMode('noecho');
        chomp($pass = ReadLine(0));
        ReadMode('normal');
    }
-----------

Laut Subversion Log habe ich das allerdings vor 8+ Jahren eingecheckt.
Wann ich's geschrieben habe kann ich nicht mehr nachvollziehen, aber zu
der Zeit war das $SIG{INT} wohl noch n?tig, sonst h?tte ich's nicht
gemacht. Von der Zeit her m?sste das damals ein SuSE Linux gewesen sein.

lg,
stefan


-- 
LOAD"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!",8,1
RUN!

From domm at cpan.org  Sat Sep 21 01:16:24 2013
From: domm at cpan.org (Thomas Klausner)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 10:16:24 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130921081624.GA4271@plix.at>

Hi!

On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 11:34:53AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
 
> I am intrigued by this. Partly because someone (can't find the attribution)
> commented that for an adult, children's games seem to partition either into
> pure chance (E has at least one like this) or where the adult is subtly
> trying to loose*. So this looks like fun, even without the ulterior motive**

I'd take one more, so two in total...

Greetings,
domm


-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}

From nick at ccl4.org  Thu Sep 26 01:50:18 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 09:50:18 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>

On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 11:34:53AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>     Robot Turtles is a board game you play with your favorite 3-8 year
>     old. It sneakily teaches programming fundamentals.
> 
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danshapiro/robot-turtles-the-board-game-for-little-programmer

> 1) I don't know how to find the relevant numbers for Austria

We think that duty on board games is 0%. That just means MWST at 20%.
Presumably on the value of the game, not the shipping too. (But someone
might screw up or get greedy).

> 5) What is the charge that gets made by the delivery firm for collecting
>    the duty?

Andrea thinks that this might be zero. In that I'll get an Erlagschein
(and presumably grumpy letters and then debt collectors if I'm daft enough
to ignore it)

> 3) So, is anyone else interested?

The unconditional list seems to be

me:			1
domm:			2
Roland Angerer:		1
Benjamin Erhart:	1
Gerhard Jungwirth:	1
pepl:			1

which is 7.

I feel I can't include daxim on that list, as I have no way to guarantee his
condition that "it ships with instructions in German". The kickstarter page
mentions people intending to translate but (a) none of us can be sure that
they will do so (b) it's not clear how "third party" the translations will
be - ie whether it results in a multi-language pamphlet in the box, a
downloadable pamphlet with the same standard of presentation, or some
plain-text notes.

However, I could gamble :-)

(At least) two of those people are in Salzburg, which might be fun. In that
the project page suggests that shipping is intended to be for Christmas, which
is well after the workshop in Salzburg: http://act.useperl.at/apw2013/
so there isn't an obvious way to get boxes to there promptly for zero cost.
I don't know the weight, but I'm going to guess under 1kg, so even 2 together
would travel for EUR 4.45:
http://www.post.at/en/personal_sending_parcel_austria_rates.php
which isn't worth worrying about.

Nicholas Clark

From benjamin at tladesignz.de  Thu Sep 26 02:06:33 2013
From: benjamin at tladesignz.de (Benjamin Erhart)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 11:06:33 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <5243F919.1000606@tladesignz.de>

Am 26.09.13 10:50, schrieb Nicholas Clark:
> (At least) two of those people are in Salzburg, which might be fun. In that
> the project page suggests that shipping is intended to be for Christmas, which
> is well after the workshop in Salzburg: http://act.useperl.at/apw2013/
> so there isn't an obvious way to get boxes to there promptly for zero cost.
> I don't know the weight, but I'm going to guess under 1kg, so even 2 together
> would travel for EUR 4.45:
> http://www.post.at/en/personal_sending_parcel_austria_rates.php
> which isn't worth worrying about.

np, I'll cover that!

Benjamin

From nick at ccl4.org  Thu Sep 26 02:09:59 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:09:59 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 09:50:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:

> The unconditional list seems to be
> 
> me:			1
> domm:			2
> Roland Angerer:		1
> Benjamin Erhart:	1
> Gerhard Jungwirth:	1
> pepl:			1
> 
> which is 7.

One more "private bidder" (a friend, and not a Perl user) for 1 (or 2)

I'm comfortable to get 10.

(But it's still not clear whether the instructions will be also available in
German too, nor is it clear when the state of that will be known)

Nicholas Clark

From nick at ccl4.org  Thu Sep 26 02:31:36 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:31:36 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130926093136.GS66035@plum.flirble.org>

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:09:59AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:

> I'm comfortable to get 10.

OK, now done. I think that we're the 127th backer at
"Ten Turtles: School-size Deca-pack"

So there might need to be an emergency social at some point mid (hopefully)
December to distribute the spoils/collect the loot.

(I can notionally borrow the amount from "what I owe the Finanzamt" between
now and then, so I don't need the money yet.)

Nicholas Clark

From andrew.nau.ua at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 02:39:36 2013
From: andrew.nau.ua at gmail.com (Andrew Pogrebennyk)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 11:39:36 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <CALPNc+5n-gK1+z9n=LCaUh+4evNNY0veLXGV6Y1NuaEUqn+6Tw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
please count me in if pricing is possible around ?30-35.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Nicholas Clark <nick at ccl4.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 09:50:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>
>> The unconditional list seems to be
>>
>> me:                   1
>> domm:                 2
>> Roland Angerer:               1
>> Benjamin Erhart:      1
>> Gerhard Jungwirth:    1
>> pepl:                 1
>>
>> which is 7.
>
> One more "private bidder" (a friend, and not a Perl user) for 1 (or 2)
>
> I'm comfortable to get 10.
>
> (But it's still not clear whether the instructions will be also available in
> German too, nor is it clear when the state of that will be known)
>
> Nicholas Clark
> _______________________________________________
> Vienna-pm mailing list
> Vienna-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/vienna-pm



-- 
Regards,
Andrew

From nick at ccl4.org  Thu Sep 26 03:00:36 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 11:00:36 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <CALPNc+5n-gK1+z9n=LCaUh+4evNNY0veLXGV6Y1NuaEUqn+6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<CALPNc+5n-gK1+z9n=LCaUh+4evNNY0veLXGV6Y1NuaEUqn+6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130926100036.GT66035@plum.flirble.org>

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:39:36AM +0200, Andrew Pogrebennyk wrote:
> Hi all,
> please count me in if pricing is possible around ?30-35.

[Yes, my mailer (actually my editor) hates Euro symbols. Sorry]

I estimate that it will be about 30, and very bad things will have to happen
to the exchange rate or tax rates to get it above 35, so I will count you in.
I won't know the true number until delivery, because of the tax.
(I will also know what my credit card charged by then)

For now I am working on the assumption that good quality German instructions
will be available and hence daxim will also take one, which means that with
your inclusion all 10 are now assigned (with only domm getting 2).

If anyone else would like one, I'm afraid that you're going to have to
organise it yourselves now (as I'm pretty sure that I can only back a
project once). There are about 40 hours remaining.

Nicholas Clark

From klaus at worstofall.com  Thu Sep 26 05:53:21 2013
From: klaus at worstofall.com (Klaus Ita)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:53:21 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926100036.GT66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<CALPNc+5n-gK1+z9n=LCaUh+4evNNY0veLXGV6Y1NuaEUqn+6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130926100036.GT66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <CAGrfkYOc2a5df85xqQEmv_uNZi9LiqtEgg+ehKVHF7qxa2oT3w@mail.gmail.com>

jeees' count me in!

 sooo little cost for recruiting, we usually face much higher burdens to
get a new developer to a good skill level!

/g,k


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Nicholas Clark <nick at ccl4.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:39:36AM +0200, Andrew Pogrebennyk wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > please count me in if pricing is possible around ?30-35.
>
> [Yes, my mailer (actually my editor) hates Euro symbols. Sorry]
>
> I estimate that it will be about 30, and very bad things will have to
> happen
> to the exchange rate or tax rates to get it above 35, so I will count you
> in.
> I won't know the true number until delivery, because of the tax.
> (I will also know what my credit card charged by then)
>
> For now I am working on the assumption that good quality German
> instructions
> will be available and hence daxim will also take one, which means that with
> your inclusion all 10 are now assigned (with only domm getting 2).
>
> If anyone else would like one, I'm afraid that you're going to have to
> organise it yourselves now (as I'm pretty sure that I can only back a
> project once). There are about 40 hours remaining.
>
> Nicholas Clark
> _______________________________________________
> Vienna-pm mailing list
> Vienna-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/vienna-pm
>
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From domm at cpan.org  Thu Sep 26 06:37:08 2013
From: domm at cpan.org (Thomas Klausner)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 15:37:08 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
Message-ID: <20130926133708.GG6429@plix.at>

Hi!

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:09:59AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 09:50:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:

> > domm:			2

I don't absolutley need 2 pieces, I was just asking around so get 10. 
So: if we only get the 10 pieces if I order 2, I order two. Else, one is 
enough for me.

Greetings,
domm

-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl                              http://domm.plix.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}

From nick at ccl4.org  Thu Sep 26 06:38:47 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:38:47 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <20130926133708.GG6429@plix.at>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926133708.GG6429@plix.at>
Message-ID: <20130926133847.GW66035@plum.flirble.org>

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 03:37:08PM +0200, Thomas Klausner wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:09:59AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 09:50:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> 
> > > domm:			2
> 
> I don't absolutley need 2 pieces, I was just asking around so get 10. 
> So: if we only get the 10 pieces if I order 2, I order two. Else, one is 
> enough for me.

Aha, you didn't make that clear. I thought that you had asked relations.
In which case, I think you get one, and Klaus Ita is very lucky and gets one.

And we're still at 10.

Nicholas Clark

From pm.list at perl-services.de  Fri Sep 27 06:09:53 2013
From: pm.list at perl-services.de (Renee B)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:09:53 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Deutscher Perl-Workshop 2014 - Call for Papers
Message-ID: <524583A1.2020605@perl-services.de>

Du programmierst in Perl oder lehrst den Einsatz von Perl? Du hast neue
Ideen, ein tolles Projekt oder eine spannende Geschichte zum Einsatz von
Perl? Dann bist Du auf dem Deutschen Perl-Workshop 2014 genau richtig!

Wir bieten: mit dem Deutschen Perl-Workshop die gr??te deutschsprachige
Veranstaltung zum Thema Perl genau die richtige Plattform f?r Deine
Idee, Dein Projekt oder Deinen Erfahrungsbericht. 2014 findet der
Deutsche Perl-Workshop vom 26.03. bis zum 28.03. im "Kulturzentrum FAUST
Warenannahme" in Hannover statt. Zum Workshop 2013 fanden sich rund 130
Teilnehmer ein.

Wir suchen: Deine Idee. Dein Projekt. Deine Geschichte. Wir suchen
anspruchsvolle Vortr?ge f?r unser Programm. Das k?nnen Lightning Talks
(5min), Kurzvortr?ge (20min) oder Langvortr?ge (40min) sein. Solltest Du
Anregungen f?r Vortragsthemen suchen, schaue bitte in den FAQ
(http://act.yapc.eu/gpw2014/wiki?node=FAQ) nach.

Vortragsvorschl?ge bitte ?ber die Webseite
(http://act.yapc.eu/gpw2014/newtalk) einreichen. Ende der
Einreichungsfrist ist der 22.12.2013! Dein Abstract sollte in rund 2000
Zeichen (das sind ca. 30 Zeilen a 72 Spalten) das Thema beschreiben, was
besonders an Deinem Ansatz ist und weshalb Perl als Sprache in diesem
Fall besonders n?tzlich ist. Bis zum 10. Januar bekommst Du eine
Benachrichtigung ob Dein Vortrag angenommen wurde oder nicht.

Wer wir sind: In diesem Jahr wird der Workshop von den Hannover
Perlmongers organisiert. Die Perlmongergruppe geh?rt zu den aktivsten in
Deutschland und trifft sich alle zwei Wochen. Mehr Infos zu unseren
regelm??igen Treffen gibt es auf Twitter unter
https://twitter.com/Hannover_pm und unter http://hannover.pm.

Unser Workshop lebt von den Vortr?gen und den Teilnehmern. Wir freuen
uns auf Dich - als Teilnehmer und als Vortragender.

From daxim at cpan.org  Mon Sep 30 01:21:24 2013
From: daxim at cpan.org (Lars =?UTF-8?B?RMmq4bSH4bSE4bSL4bSP4bShIOi/quaLieaWrw==?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:21:24 +0200
Subject: [Vienna-pm] =?utf-8?q?Themen_f=C3=BCr_2013-10-02?=
Message-ID: <20130930102124.1b3f9ff0@champion.fmtyew.tk>

Diesmal nur ein Social-Treffen zur Organisation des Perl-Workshops.
Achtung: der Ort ist das Bogside Inn, siehe:

<http://www.meetup.com/Vienna-Perl-Mongers/events/142963672/>
<http://www.meetup.com/Vienna-Perl-Mongers/events/142963672/ical/Treffen+im+Oktober+2013.ics>
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From nick at ccl4.org  Mon Sep 30 01:59:38 2013
From: nick at ccl4.org (Nicholas Clark)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:59:38 +0100
Subject: [Vienna-pm] Robot Turtles - a board game to teach programming
In-Reply-To: <CAGrfkYOc2a5df85xqQEmv_uNZi9LiqtEgg+ehKVHF7qxa2oT3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130917103453.GV66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926085017.GC4940@plum.flirble.org>
	<20130926090959.GR66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<CALPNc+5n-gK1+z9n=LCaUh+4evNNY0veLXGV6Y1NuaEUqn+6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130926100036.GT66035@plum.flirble.org>
	<CAGrfkYOc2a5df85xqQEmv_uNZi9LiqtEgg+ehKVHF7qxa2oT3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130930085937.GA42983@plum.flirble.org>

On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 02:53:21PM +0200, Klaus Ita wrote:
> jeees' count me in!
> 
>  sooo little cost for recruiting, we usually face much higher burdens to
> get a new developer to a good skill level!

It amuses me that the game actually costs more than a Raspberry Pi model A.

(To be fair, getting the Raspberry Pi running costs more than $25 if you
don't already have a spare phone charger, spare SD card etc. We don't *yet*
have spare micro-USB chargers coming out of our ears. But the evidence of a
dozen or more working chargers that have outlived their phones suggests that
in a year or two we will)


[Update is that Amazon have confirmed payment, and I've entered my shipping
address into Kickstarter. So probably now nothing to do until December...]

Nicholas Clark