From ejanev at gmail.com  Tue Oct  1 08:46:48 2013
From: ejanev at gmail.com (Emil Janev)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:46:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] last night's meeting
In-Reply-To: <C6B03D76-F4D9-4BD6-A001-B09097F22780@gmail.com>
References: <C6B03D76-F4D9-4BD6-A001-B09097F22780@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGFQQk65neHONRAvQoGU2DAxMZKsxHN7n5-AYMyf2ujkR9pWg@mail.gmail.com>

I tried to look some of the slides from the lightning talks ( tried to
lookup some of the acronyms from Mike's talk :)
Any chance they'll be published on the to.pm.org site?

Thanks and regards,


On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> Thanks to everyone who participated both locally and remotely last night.
>  I've watched some of the Youtube broadcast and I'm impressed by the
> quality of the audio and the video.  I think we're really getting this
> stuff figured out.  I've posted a summary of our meeting here:
> http://blogs.perl.org/users/olaf_alders/2013/09/torontopm-monthly-meetings-are-now-streamed-live.html My hope is that we can get a few more remote participants (and maybe even
> speakers?) moving forward.
>
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>



-- 
Emil Janev
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From mike at stok.ca  Tue Oct  1 09:41:30 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 10:41:30 -0600
Subject: [tpm] last night's meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAOGFQQk65neHONRAvQoGU2DAxMZKsxHN7n5-AYMyf2ujkR9pWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C6B03D76-F4D9-4BD6-A001-B09097F22780@gmail.com>
	<CAOGFQQk65neHONRAvQoGU2DAxMZKsxHN7n5-AYMyf2ujkR9pWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2381561E-3509-4702-B696-C52045B5D0C7@stok.ca>

I'll see if I can add them :-)

For now...

DRY = Don?t Repeat Yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_repeat_yourself
YAGNI = You Aren?t Going to Need It https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Ain't_Gonna_Need_It
SOLID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(object-oriented_design)
TRUE = Transparent, Reasonable, Usable, Exemplary - mentioned in interview http://www.infoq.com/articles/practical-oo-design-in-ruby-book

On 2013-10-01, at 9:46 AM, Emil Janev <ejanev at gmail.com> wrote:

> I tried to look some of the slides from the lightning talks ( tried to lookup some of the acronyms from Mike's talk :)
> Any chance they'll be published on the to.pm.org site?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Thanks to everyone who participated both locally and remotely last night.  I've watched some of the Youtube broadcast and I'm impressed by the quality of the audio and the video.  I think we're really getting this stuff figured out.  I've posted a summary of our meeting here: http://blogs.perl.org/users/olaf_alders/2013/09/torontopm-monthly-meetings-are-now-streamed-live.html  My hope is that we can get a few more remote participants (and maybe even speakers?) moving forward.
> 
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
> 
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
> 
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Emil Janev
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.






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From uri at stemsystems.com  Wed Oct  2 20:29:09 2013
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 23:29:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
Message-ID: <524CE485.9040906@stemsystems.com>

hi all,

i have an interesting situation that i would like to get help with from 
toronto.pm. i have a young candidate from a small city in northwest 
ontario who has interviewed and tentatively been offered a job in the 
big bad city of toronto. he is wary about taking the job and the cto is 
also wary but wants to hire him. the hacker is just not comfortable 
outside of his small town world.

so my request is for some of you to take him under your wing. i don't 
know what this entails but of course it means inviting him to pm 
meetings and socials (he would sign onto this list) and being a big 
sibling to him. he actually rides his own motorcycle so he isn't just a 
closet case! the work environment is also different for him.

one issue he brought up is living expenses. the salary is on the lower 
end but i am fairly sure he can do fine there. of course his current 
expenses are way lower where he is now but he is also woefully underpaid.

any ideas or interest in helping him? i know you guys are a friendly and 
fun bunch and would welcome him in, but a more personal connection would 
be great. this is an odd situation and i working to help him out.

thanx,

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
http://PerlHunter.com

From talexb at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 06:07:14 2013
From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 09:07:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <524CE485.9040906@stemsystems.com>
References: <524CE485.9040906@stemsystems.com>
Message-ID: <CANgc-axrdVSu15cuROo9+B_41WecKk7H0BQAa3ve3kdiOZup9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Uri,

I can offer to help out as a member of the welcoming committee. I live in
East York, where an apartment can be had for not too much cash, but where
it's still fairly close to public transit.

Please feel free to have the 'country hacker' contact me directly for
information on Toronto.

Alex Beamish



On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Uri Guttman <uri at stemsystems.com> wrote:

> hi all,
>
> i have an interesting situation that i would like to get help with from
> toronto.pm. i have a young candidate from a small city in northwest
> ontario who has interviewed and tentatively been offered a job in the big
> bad city of toronto. he is wary about taking the job and the cto is also
> wary but wants to hire him. the hacker is just not comfortable outside of
> his small town world.
>
> so my request is for some of you to take him under your wing. i don't know
> what this entails but of course it means inviting him to pm meetings and
> socials (he would sign onto this list) and being a big sibling to him. he
> actually rides his own motorcycle so he isn't just a closet case! the work
> environment is also different for him.
>
> one issue he brought up is living expenses. the salary is on the lower end
> but i am fairly sure he can do fine there. of course his current expenses
> are way lower where he is now but he is also woefully underpaid.
>
> any ideas or interest in helping him? i know you guys are a friendly and
> fun bunch and would welcome him in, but a more personal connection would be
> great. this is an odd situation and i working to help him out.
>
> thanx,
>
> uri
>
> --
> Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
> The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
> http://PerlHunter.com
> ______________________________**_________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>



-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 08:00:08 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 11:00:08 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
Message-ID: <BF5FE66A-5335-424B-B877-74886A2E73E3@gmail.com>

I just wanted to remind everyone about our upcoming meetings:

http://to.pm.org/meetings/

Dave, are you going to set them up in the Meetup group again or do you want someone else to do it?

Please note that I took the liberty of moving the October meeting from the 31st to the week before so that there's no kids and/or candy conflict, unless your religion requires you to celebrate Hallowe'en on Oct 24th.  If so, please speak up now.

The blog post about the streaming has gotten some positive feedback.  We've had new members from outside of Canada join the meetup Group, new followers on Twitter and G+ and subscribers to our YouTube channel.  So, I'd say the appetite is there for streaming meetings outside of our core group as well.  Moving forward we should look at incorporating some remote speakers as well.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 08:12:13 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 11:12:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <BF5FE66A-5335-424B-B877-74886A2E73E3@gmail.com>
References: <BF5FE66A-5335-424B-B877-74886A2E73E3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE-jPZOTZYgY9J+nOza96p-k3iVoaTNtaSHeyLfe39u2kg@mail.gmail.com>

Whoops. Forgot about that. I'll fixup the meetup group.

--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com


On 3 October 2013 11:00, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just wanted to remind everyone about our upcoming meetings:
>
> http://to.pm.org/meetings/
>
> Dave, are you going to set them up in the Meetup group again or do you
> want someone else to do it?
>
> Please note that I took the liberty of moving the October meeting from the
> 31st to the week before so that there's no kids and/or candy conflict,
> unless your religion requires you to celebrate Hallowe'en on Oct 24th.  If
> so, please speak up now.
>
> The blog post about the streaming has gotten some positive feedback.
>  We've had new members from outside of Canada join the meetup Group, new
> followers on Twitter and G+ and subscribers to our YouTube channel.  So,
> I'd say the appetite is there for streaming meetings outside of our core
> group as well.  Moving forward we should look at incorporating some remote
> speakers as well.
>
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From legrady at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 08:48:48 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 11:48:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE-jPZOTZYgY9J+nOza96p-k3iVoaTNtaSHeyLfe39u2kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF5FE66A-5335-424B-B877-74886A2E73E3@gmail.com>
	<CAAyyWE-jPZOTZYgY9J+nOza96p-k3iVoaTNtaSHeyLfe39u2kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5sUC8mz4rxFfTiMpUtutPHO9pVR2Pj5iUkM11Y2ObEXQ@mail.gmail.com>

My presentation will be about Perl5i

Tom


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Dave Doyle <dave.s.doyle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Whoops. Forgot about that. I'll fixup the meetup group.
>
> --
> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com
>
>
> On 3 October 2013 11:00, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just wanted to remind everyone about our upcoming meetings:
>>
>> http://to.pm.org/meetings/
>>
>> Dave, are you going to set them up in the Meetup group again or do you
>> want someone else to do it?
>>
>> Please note that I took the liberty of moving the October meeting from
>> the 31st to the week before so that there's no kids and/or candy conflict,
>> unless your religion requires you to celebrate Hallowe'en on Oct 24th.  If
>> so, please speak up now.
>>
>> The blog post about the streaming has gotten some positive feedback.
>>  We've had new members from outside of Canada join the meetup Group, new
>> followers on Twitter and G+ and subscribers to our YouTube channel.  So,
>> I'd say the appetite is there for streaming meetings outside of our core
>> group as well.  Moving forward we should look at incorporating some remote
>> speakers as well.
>>
>> Olaf
>> --
>> Olaf Alders
>> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>>
>> http://www.wundercounter.com
>> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>>
>> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
>> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Oct  3 09:00:00 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:00:00 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
Message-ID: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> Please note that I took the liberty of moving the October meeting from
the 31st to the week before so that there's no kids and/or candy
conflict,

Changing meeting cycles is a really bad idea; not least because then we
have to trouble Global Knowledge to rearrange the date. Unless a
significant number of people would be inconvenienced, I would urge
reverting to the normal date.

BTW, we should be thinking about next year's schedule by now.

PS apologies for the duplication, Olaf.



From legrady at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 09:04:11 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:04:11 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd6VVPmk==hLYbNkuNwYwH=-mrRDbLpzYgef119WDDmmSQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think a singnificant majority would be inconvenienced by a meeting on
halloween.

Many people have kids, some of whom are young enough to be going out, and
even single people like myself feel an obligation to fatten neighbourhood
kids and rot their teeth


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> >
> > Please note that I took the liberty of moving the October meeting from
> the 31st to the week before so that there's no kids and/or candy
> conflict,
>
> Changing meeting cycles is a really bad idea; not least because then we
> have to trouble Global Knowledge to rearrange the date. Unless a
> significant number of people would be inconvenienced, I would urge
> reverting to the normal date.
>
> BTW, we should be thinking about next year's schedule by now.
>
> PS apologies for the duplication, Olaf.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 09:05:00 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:05:00 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Changing meeting cycles is a really bad idea; not least because then we
> have to trouble Global Knowledge to rearrange the date. Unless a
> significant number of people would be inconvenienced, I would urge
> reverting to the normal date.
>

With respect to Global Knowledge, that is a real issue.  However, would you
say the same if our meeting date fell on Christmas?  I think we need to be
practical here.  Doing Hallowe'en will impact us pretty strongly
attendence-wise I think (me, for one).
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 09:15:14 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:15:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B31EA300-7066-4A62-B20C-1D19525114C6@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-03, at 12:05 PM, Dave Doyle wrote:

> Changing meeting cycles is a really bad idea; not least because then we
> have to trouble Global Knowledge to rearrange the date. Unless a
> significant number of people would be inconvenienced, I would urge
> reverting to the normal date.
> 
> With respect to Global Knowledge, that is a real issue.  However, would you say the same if our meeting date fell on Christmas?  I think we need to be practical here.  Doing Hallowe'en will impact us pretty strongly attendence-wise I think (me, for one). 

I would be out as well if we did the 31st, so we'd need to find a replacement speaker.  Also, Tom is the other speaker and it doesn't look like a good fit for him.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From talexb at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 09:20:28 2013
From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:20:28 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANgc-azmq7PxUp+M1u4t4YS-q=nvb1BUQ5u4mXkR5+jcugiQrw@mail.gmail.com>

While I was momentarily surprised by moving our October date (that was my
left-brain speaking), it makes total sense, especially since it sounds like
attendance would be much better if we have our meeting a week earlier.

As long as Global Knowledge is amenable, I think we should definitely move
the date to October 24.

Alex

PS And perhaps make that a permanent rule for this group -- even though
this issue won't reappear until 2019. :)


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Dave Doyle <dave.s.doyle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Changing meeting cycles is a really bad idea; not least because then we
>> have to trouble Global Knowledge to rearrange the date. Unless a
>> significant number of people would be inconvenienced, I would urge
>> reverting to the normal date.
>>
>
> With respect to Global Knowledge, that is a real issue.  However, would
> you say the same if our meeting date fell on Christmas?  I think we need to
> be practical here.  Doing Hallowe'en will impact us pretty strongly
> attendence-wise I think (me, for one).
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>


-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
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From uri at stemsystems.com  Thu Oct  3 10:09:29 2013
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 13:09:29 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <CANgc-axrdVSu15cuROo9+B_41WecKk7H0BQAa3ve3kdiOZup9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <524CE485.9040906@stemsystems.com>
	<CANgc-axrdVSu15cuROo9+B_41WecKk7H0BQAa3ve3kdiOZup9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <524DA4C9.7070000@stemsystems.com>

On 10/03/2013 09:07 AM, Alex Beamish wrote:
> Hi Uri,
>
> I can offer to help out as a member of the welcoming committee. I live in
> East York, where an apartment can be had for not too much cash, but where
> it's still fairly close to public transit.
>
> Please feel free to have the 'country hacker' contact me directly for
> information on Toronto.

hi all,

i appreciate all the help offered. the candidate is trying to sign on to 
this list (he has a crappy slow connection to your site last night). 
when he succeeds, he will introduce himself and you can contact him 
directly or via the list. if you contact him directly, please cc me so i 
can track things and help out where needed.

thanx,

uri


-- 
Uri Guttman - The Perl Hunter
The Best Perl Jobs, The Best Perl Hackers
http://PerlHunter.com

From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Oct  3 11:50:19 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:50:19 -0400
Subject: [tpm] upcoming meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <993f273408235a037d0355f405ac24dd.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAAyyWE8ww-CwCSw+=aFukV7djvV95rEq19PcGqL+_k7Js7xE-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4e8181b33c8384696f3d9f67d16e39ba.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> With respect to Global Knowledge, that is a real issue.

I've checked that's not a problem, so I'll withdraw my objection.

> However, would you say the same if our meeting date fell on Christmas?

No, that's a general holiday when everything shuts down. I didn't think
Halloween would be of any significance to most of our demographic. (Men
without children in the escort-requiring age range.)



From bamccaig at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 19:02:33 2013
From: bamccaig at gmail.com (Brandon McCaig)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:02:33 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <524CE485.9040906@stemsystems.com>
Message-ID: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>

Hello,

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 23:29:09 -0400 Uri Guttman said:
> i have an interesting situation that i would like to get help
> with from toronto.pm. i have a young candidate from a small
> city in northwest ontario who has interviewed and tentatively
> been offered a job in the big bad city of toronto. he is wary
> about taking the job and the cto is also wary but wants to hire
> him. the hacker is just not comfortable outside of his small
> town world.
> 
> so my request is for some of you to take him under your wing. i
> don't know what this entails but of course it means inviting
> him to pm meetings and socials (he would sign onto this list)
> and being a big sibling to him. he actually rides his own
> motorcycle so he isn't just a closet case! the work environment
> is also different for him.
> 
> one issue he brought up is living expenses. the salary is on
> the lower end but i am fairly sure he can do fine there. of
> course his current expenses are way lower where he is now but
> he is also woefully underpaid.
> 
> any ideas or interest in helping him? i know you guys are a
> friendly and fun bunch and would welcome him in, but a more
> personal connection would be great. this is an odd situation
> and i am working to help him out.

Breaker, breaker, this is country mouse calling the rubber duck,
come on...

Hello, everyone. Forgive my ignorance. I am new to Perl Mongers.
:) Also, forgive my novel.

I suppose I should introduce myself first. I am Brandon McCaig.
I'm a 27 year old male. I taught myself Perl 3 or 4 years ago and
have been using it increasingly more ever since. I love the
command-line and despise the GUI. I am an avid gamer. I have a 3
year community college diploma titled "Computer
Programmer/Analyst" and graduated in 2007. I have been employed
locally ever since. Mostly working with Microsoft technologies
(and hating every second of it; well that's an exaggeration, but
you get the point). I predominantly develop in ASP.NET/C#
professionally (against my will).

I grew up in a small town in the actual country. The "township"
had around 3000 people. The town probably closer to 500 or 1000.
My yard was over an acre and I was surrounded by woodlands. :)

3 years ago I moved into the city. Tiny compared to Toronto. I
currently reside in Sault Ste. Marie (current population around
70 k, I think).

I have several concerns about Toronto. I flew down for an
overnight stay a couple of weeks ago and found it very
overwhelming. I didn't really have a chance to adjust at all to
the city unfortunately. The only things that I saw are the CN
tower, congested streets, and my hotel room. :)

My immediate reaction was just that there was no way that I could
live there. The more that I think about it the more that I think
I should consider it more. Unfortunately, I don't know how long
the offer will stand. There is surely a lot more to the city than
what I saw so maybe it won't be as bad as I originally feared.
There are several things that concern me though.

Following is a short list. I realize that some of them are
personal and you can't really help with me with them, but I
figure it will help me to express them anyway.

- Commutting. I've never driven in traffic as heavy as Toronto,
and frankly the taxi rides that I had while in the city were
intimidating. I love driving, but I'm genuinely afraid of driving
in Toronto. It looks like chaos. I can't imagine how people avoid
accidents. They seem inevitable. And that's in a cage/car. Let
alone riding my motorcycle, being much more vulnerable... Aside
from the safety concerns, there are the costs involved: repairs,
insurance hikes, etc.

Aside from driving, I don't really know how to get around
affordably. Taxis are certainly not affordable. I probably spent
$120 or $150 on taxis in just the day and a half that I was there
for the interview, and I didn't even go very many places.
Obviously there's a full transit system, but I don't know how
affordable they are, let alone comfortable, convenient, safe,
etc.

It sounds like the subway is the fastest way to get around, but
from the maps that I was looking at it only seems to cover
certain parts of the city and even then only stops every so many
city blocks so I imagine you'd still have quite a bit of walking
or have to transfer between transit systems to get to your
destination.

When I visited I was afraid of trying to cross Dufferin Street so
I just stayed in my hotel room all night. :( When I was at the CN
tower I almost talked myself into going to Union Station and
trying to figure out how to get to my interview that way, but
decided a taxi would be more reliable with such a small amount of
time.

- As a side note, I like people, but preferrably from a few feet
away. In crowds I get anxious and nervous and self-conscious. I
imagine that I'd be forced to cope and adjust to it in Toronto,
but in the short term it will probably be difficult for me.

- Finding an apartment that I can afford, on such short notice,
that isn't too far away from the office[1], isn't a dump, and
isn't in a bad neighbourhood. I don't know the first thing about
finding an apartment, let alone on short notice, let alone
remotely. Not to mention, being able to afford first and last
month up front if required (on top of all of my other moving
expenses). I imagine finding any apartment would be challenging,
let alone one that I like.

[1] The office is on Wingold Avenue off of Dufferin Street, for
reference.

- Coordinating resignation at my current job. My "employment
agreement" or whatever it was specifies at least 1 month notice.
I'm also "contracting" at the moment. It's supposed to be a year
term, but IIRC I haven't signed anything agreeing to that, and
they haven't changed my pay rate or anything else [yet].
Technically it is my employer that is on contract and I'm just
their guinea pig. Legalities aside, I imagine both companies will
be sore about it if I suddenly leave in the middle of this
"contract". I'm afraid of potentially burning a bridge that I may
need to fall back on.

- Release of my current apartment. Last month is paid already so
if I'm forced to leave suddenly in the middle of the month then I
don't know if I'm going to lose that last month's rent...

- Actually moving down there. I'll need help so either I have to
trouble somebody to ride down with me (not a small favor to ask)
or I have to hire help. I have to transport two vehicles, and a
small amount of large furniture.

- All the prices seem to be double down there as compared to here
(and here already seems double what they pay in the USA
[reference for Uri]). That makes the salary offered to me seem
like barely enough to get by, if enough at all. The truth is that
I just have no idea what the cost of living down there will be.
It seems risky to gamble on it and figure it out when I get
there.

Funnily enough I had one super awesome taxi driver that warned me
about it and insisted that I don't let them short change me. He
didn't actually give me any numbers to go on other than that
rent could easily be $2000/mo. for example.

- Having reliable and safe parking for two vehicles (by spring
when my motorcycle will come out). Ideally sheltered parking, but
I don't even have that here. If the transit system is good enough
then I might be able to sell my car and rely on that, but I'm not
too sure about that. If my residence doesn't have laundry then
I'll need to haul my laundry down the block or across the city...
Then there is beer store runs, grocery shopping, etc.. I can't
imagine doing those kinds of things on public transit and staying
sane. I really, really don't want to have to sell my motorcycle
(unless it's to buy a bigger one).

- If my car or motorcycle breaks down then I'll need to take it
to a garage to get it fixed. I won't have my dad nearby to fix it
for free. Garages typically screw you over and can't be trusted
so you need extra money above and beyond the vehicle costs to
afford that...

Already my motorcycle is making money tight. I can't afford for
it to get any tighter. :)

__END__

I don't even know how complete that list is. I foolishly didn't
bother writing these things down until I had cooled off from my
trip.

What do you guys consider the bare minimum to survive comfortably
in the city? Any advice or comments are appreciated. Thanks.

Regards,


-- 
Brandon McCaig <bamccaig at gmail.com> <bamccaig at castopulence.org>
Castopulence Software <https://www.castopulence.org/>
Blog <http://www.bamccaig.com/>
perl -E '$_=q{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.
q{Vg qbrfa'\''g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};
tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say'

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From jkeen at verizon.net  Thu Oct  3 19:54:39 2013
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 22:54:39 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
Message-ID: <524E2DEF.5040900@verizon.net>

On 10/3/13 10:02 PM, Brandon McCaig wrote:
> Hello,
> [snip]

> locally ever since. Mostly working with Microsoft technologies
> (and hating every second of it; well that's an exaggeration, but
> you get the point). I predominantly develop in ASP.NET/C#
> professionally (against my will).
>


At $job yesterday, I had to review a client written for our API by one 
of our downstream users.  It was written in C#.  It seemed like a much 
more reasonable language than Java.

> [snip]

> - Commutting. I've never driven in traffic as heavy as Toronto,

You obviously have not driven in New York City. :-)

In central Toronto, you do not need to drive.  I have visited Toronto 
most years since 1995.  I park my car in the hotel or B-n-B lot and 
don't use it until I leave the city.  Granted, I mostly hang out south 
of Bloor St, where the combination of metro, streetcar and bus is at its 
best.  In the more northern parts of the city the traffic is quite like 
any other large North American city.  You will get used to it.

> alone riding my motorcycle, being much more vulnerable... Aside
> from the safety concerns, there are the costs involved: repairs,
> insurance hikes, etc.
>

You will presumably be paid in Toronto dollars, not Sault Ste Marie dollars.

> Aside from driving, I don't really know how to get around
> affordably. Taxis are certainly not affordable. I probably spent
> $120 or $150 on taxis in just the day and a half that I was there
> for the interview, and I didn't even go very many places.

I can't recall ever taking a taxi in Toronto.

> [snip]
> I imagine you'd still have quite a bit of walking
> or have to transfer between transit systems to get to your
> destination.
>

Yes, that's a feature, not a bug.

> [snip]

>
> [1] The office is on Wingold Avenue off of Dufferin Street, for
> reference.
>

Granted, this location is quite a ways from the city center.  I suspect 
you will need a car/motorcycle to get there.

(Side note to TPM:  Isn't this near where we held the 
CGI-Application-Framework in Oct 2005?  Further side note:  That was the 
last time I actually used my car while *in* metro Toronto.)

>
> - All the prices seem to be double down there as compared to here
> (and here already seems double what they pay in the USA
> [reference for Uri]).

The Canadian dollar is in a part of the long-term cycle in exchange 
rates where it is high relative to the USD.  Enjoy it while it lasts.

kid51
(who remembers how far his USDs went in Toronto in the 1990s)


From liam at holoweb.net  Thu Oct  3 19:58:51 2013
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 22:58:51 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
Message-ID: <1380855531.10330.153.camel@slave.barefootcomputing.com>

On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 22:02 -0400, Brandon McCaig wrote:

> - Commutting. I've never driven in traffic as heavy as Toronto,

The smart people take the TTC (the public transit).

I would not advise riding a motorcycle much in the city.

Disclaimer: I moved out of Toronto 8 years ago and live in the country
to the East of the city :-)

> Aside from driving, I don't really know how to get around
> affordably.

The downtown core of Toronto is very safe. You go to the subway ticket
booth and get a free "ride guide". If you live in the city you buy a
monthly transit pass for $130 or so for as many rides as you like:
http://ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Prices/

> It sounds like the subway is the fastest way to get around, but
> from the maps that I was looking at it only seems to cover
> certain parts of the city and even then only stops every so many
> city blocks so I imagine you'd still have quite a bit of walking
> or have to transfer between transit systems to get to your
> destination.

Yes. People tend to walk a lot more in the city than in the country.
In Toronto apartments near the subway stops are more expensive than
others - they often say "steps to the TTC" if they are a long way away
and "right next to TTC" if less than 10 minutes' walk :-)

The Toronto Star and Now Magazine --
http://toronto.nowtoronto.com/ApartmentsForRent/
used to be among the best places to find somewhere good.

> When I visited I was afraid of trying to cross Dufferin Street
Cross at a crosswalk or an intersection. People will stop for you.

>  In crowds I get anxious and nervous and self-conscious. I
> imagine that I'd be forced to cope and adjust to it in Toronto,
> but in the short term it will probably be difficult for me.
The realization that no-one actually really cares what you look like,
that there's so much diversity that people aren't really judging, can be
very liberating.

> - Finding an apartment that I can afford, on such short notice,
> that isn't too far away from the office[1], isn't a dump, and
> isn't in a bad neighbourhood.

I did this with the help of a realter who drove me around to several
places.

I used to live a short walk from Wingold Ave, on Lauder Ave; the
landlord, York West Developments, was awesome.
http://www.yorkwestdevelopments.ca/
 Having said that, my choce would be to live much, much closer downtown
and to take the Dufferin bus to work. Make it *easy* for yourself to get
around, so that you can do things; there's a ton of totally free events
every week in the city, and you can meet people, have a good time & not
pay much money. All the way from Bloor and Dufferin east to Bloor &
Spadina or George, is the "annex", an awesome studenty district with
cheap food and fun stores.

Moving expenses may well be tax deductible, keep all receipts.

One strategy is to plan to move after a year (or less), once you know
your way around the city and can choose where to live.

>  Legalities aside, I imagine both companies will
> be sore about it if I suddenly leave in the middle of this
> "contract". I'm afraid of potentially burning a bridge that I may
> need to fall back on.

Sometimes you have to take opportunities.

> - Actually moving down there. I'll need help so either I have to
> trouble somebody to ride down with me (not a small favor to ask)
> or I have to hire help. I have to transport two vehicles, and a
> small amount of large furniture.

If you have a car, remember that parking in Toronto tends to be
expensive. Like, $100/month or more. Parking on the street will probably
require a permit that you buy at city hall, and spaces are always at a
premium. For my part I'd get rid of the car and if you need a car in
Toronto, use autoshare or zipcar. If you did that you could then rent a
suitably large van for moving, and drive it with the motobike inside.

> Funnily enough I had one super awesome taxi driver that warned me
> about it and insisted that I don't let them short change me. He
> didn't actually give me any numbers to go on other than that
> rent could easily be $2000/mo. for example.
It can be, but there are cheaper ones, especially if a basement
apartment is OK, e.g.
http://www.yorkwestdevelopments.ca/property/one-bedroom-basement-apartment-bathurst-st/

> - Having reliable and safe parking for two vehicles (by spring
> when my motorcycle will come out). Ideally sheltered parking, but
> I don't even have that here. If the transit system is good enough
> then I might be able to sell my car and rely on that,
I'd say most people in downtown Toronto do not drive, even though the
mayor (Rob Ford) would like to destroy the public transit system.

>  but I'm not
> too sure about that. If my residence doesn't have laundry then
> I'll need to haul my laundry down the block or across the city...
> Then there is beer store runs, grocery shopping, etc.. I can't
> imagine doing those kinds of things on public transit and staying
> sane.
Get over it darling :-) people do that all the time.

I used to go to The Big Carrot (a natural/organic supermarket) on the
subway and then take a taxi home with my stuff.  The $20 fare was worth
it to me.

> - If my car or motorcycle breaks down then I'll need to take it
> to a garage to get it fixed.
And if your teeth fall out you'll need a dentist, and if your books fall
off the wall you'll need to go to Ikea and buy shelves :-)   To find a
good garage, ask people, go by reputation, same as in the country. Our
local garage in Milford, ON., is awesome. But we had a good one on Front
Street in Toronto, too, when we lived at King and Parliament (a good
area but a bit far from Wingold, could easily take 45 minutes).

If you're being paid less than $30K it'll be hard, and you'll be cooking
pots of soup for yourself, and looking for a roommate situation rather
than an apartment.  Me, I'd do it anyway :-) But then, I flew across the
Atlantic to work in Toronto, at Bloor and Spadina.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml


From legrady at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 20:07:45 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 23:07:45 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <1380855531.10330.153.camel@slave.barefootcomputing.com>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
	<1380855531.10330.153.camel@slave.barefootcomputing.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd4h=NQXz9Dy1Js+05X6=30caRQx2KMsRzvOk4kcU9noRw@mail.gmail.com>

I've been riding a motorcycle in Toronto / Kitchener / Waterloo since I
returned from Nova Scotia in 1996. The motorcycle shops I used to go to
arent around any more, but there are places around the city. Occasionally I
had to get them to tow the bike, cause it wasn't working enough to get to
the shop, but usually I was mere;y walking wounded. Now that I have a bike
I bought new ( 12 years ago ), it's in much better  condition and gets by
with occasional routine maintenance.

But they still keep shutting down the bike shops I go to


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Liam R E Quin <liam at holoweb.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 22:02 -0400, Brandon McCaig wrote:
>
> > - Commutting. I've never driven in traffic as heavy as Toronto,
>
> The smart people take the TTC (the public transit).
>
> I would not advise riding a motorcycle much in the city.
>
> Disclaimer: I moved out of Toronto 8 years ago and live in the country
> to the East of the city :-)
>
> > Aside from driving, I don't really know how to get around
> > affordably.
>
> The downtown core of Toronto is very safe. You go to the subway ticket
> booth and get a free "ride guide". If you live in the city you buy a
> monthly transit pass for $130 or so for as many rides as you like:
> http://ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Prices/
>
> > It sounds like the subway is the fastest way to get around, but
> > from the maps that I was looking at it only seems to cover
> > certain parts of the city and even then only stops every so many
> > city blocks so I imagine you'd still have quite a bit of walking
> > or have to transfer between transit systems to get to your
> > destination.
>
> Yes. People tend to walk a lot more in the city than in the country.
> In Toronto apartments near the subway stops are more expensive than
> others - they often say "steps to the TTC" if they are a long way away
> and "right next to TTC" if less than 10 minutes' walk :-)
>
> The Toronto Star and Now Magazine --
> http://toronto.nowtoronto.com/ApartmentsForRent/
> used to be among the best places to find somewhere good.
>
> > When I visited I was afraid of trying to cross Dufferin Street
> Cross at a crosswalk or an intersection. People will stop for you.
>
> >  In crowds I get anxious and nervous and self-conscious. I
> > imagine that I'd be forced to cope and adjust to it in Toronto,
> > but in the short term it will probably be difficult for me.
> The realization that no-one actually really cares what you look like,
> that there's so much diversity that people aren't really judging, can be
> very liberating.
>
> > - Finding an apartment that I can afford, on such short notice,
> > that isn't too far away from the office[1], isn't a dump, and
> > isn't in a bad neighbourhood.
>
> I did this with the help of a realter who drove me around to several
> places.
>
> I used to live a short walk from Wingold Ave, on Lauder Ave; the
> landlord, York West Developments, was awesome.
> http://www.yorkwestdevelopments.ca/
>  Having said that, my choce would be to live much, much closer downtown
> and to take the Dufferin bus to work. Make it *easy* for yourself to get
> around, so that you can do things; there's a ton of totally free events
> every week in the city, and you can meet people, have a good time & not
> pay much money. All the way from Bloor and Dufferin east to Bloor &
> Spadina or George, is the "annex", an awesome studenty district with
> cheap food and fun stores.
>
> Moving expenses may well be tax deductible, keep all receipts.
>
> One strategy is to plan to move after a year (or less), once you know
> your way around the city and can choose where to live.
>
> >  Legalities aside, I imagine both companies will
> > be sore about it if I suddenly leave in the middle of this
> > "contract". I'm afraid of potentially burning a bridge that I may
> > need to fall back on.
>
> Sometimes you have to take opportunities.
>
> > - Actually moving down there. I'll need help so either I have to
> > trouble somebody to ride down with me (not a small favor to ask)
> > or I have to hire help. I have to transport two vehicles, and a
> > small amount of large furniture.
>
> If you have a car, remember that parking in Toronto tends to be
> expensive. Like, $100/month or more. Parking on the street will probably
> require a permit that you buy at city hall, and spaces are always at a
> premium. For my part I'd get rid of the car and if you need a car in
> Toronto, use autoshare or zipcar. If you did that you could then rent a
> suitably large van for moving, and drive it with the motobike inside.
>
> > Funnily enough I had one super awesome taxi driver that warned me
> > about it and insisted that I don't let them short change me. He
> > didn't actually give me any numbers to go on other than that
> > rent could easily be $2000/mo. for example.
> It can be, but there are cheaper ones, especially if a basement
> apartment is OK, e.g.
>
> http://www.yorkwestdevelopments.ca/property/one-bedroom-basement-apartment-bathurst-st/
>
> > - Having reliable and safe parking for two vehicles (by spring
> > when my motorcycle will come out). Ideally sheltered parking, but
> > I don't even have that here. If the transit system is good enough
> > then I might be able to sell my car and rely on that,
> I'd say most people in downtown Toronto do not drive, even though the
> mayor (Rob Ford) would like to destroy the public transit system.
>
> >  but I'm not
> > too sure about that. If my residence doesn't have laundry then
> > I'll need to haul my laundry down the block or across the city...
> > Then there is beer store runs, grocery shopping, etc.. I can't
> > imagine doing those kinds of things on public transit and staying
> > sane.
> Get over it darling :-) people do that all the time.
>
> I used to go to The Big Carrot (a natural/organic supermarket) on the
> subway and then take a taxi home with my stuff.  The $20 fare was worth
> it to me.
>
> > - If my car or motorcycle breaks down then I'll need to take it
> > to a garage to get it fixed.
> And if your teeth fall out you'll need a dentist, and if your books fall
> off the wall you'll need to go to Ikea and buy shelves :-)   To find a
> good garage, ask people, go by reputation, same as in the country. Our
> local garage in Milford, ON., is awesome. But we had a good one on Front
> Street in Toronto, too, when we lived at King and Parliament (a good
> area but a bit far from Wingold, could easily take 45 minutes).
>
> If you're being paid less than $30K it'll be hard, and you'll be cooking
> pots of soup for yourself, and looking for a roommate situation rather
> than an apartment.  Me, I'd do it anyway :-) But then, I flew across the
> Atlantic to work in Toronto, at Bloor and Spadina.
>
> Liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
> Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Thu Oct  3 20:16:08 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 23:16:08 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
Message-ID: <524E32F8.7090007@utoronto.ca>

Welcome,

(i haven't read any of the other replies, but i'm sending this as is anyway)

Moving from the Sault to Toronto is going to be a huge adjustment
without a doubt.  Rest assured though, that there are lots of people
that came from communities even smaller than where you grew up that have
moved to the city and thrived.  Theres a lot in your novel, so i'm just
going to address some highlights, at random

Getting around:
Transit in the city is safe.  The subway is pretty reliable. Surface
routes are generally reasonably reliable as well (meaning buses and
streetcars)  It's 3 bucks cash fare to go anywhere you can get to on
transit.  You can get a monthly pass for 125 or so, and there is a
federal tax break associated with those passes so you get some of that
money back.  There are *many* people that live in the city without any
vehicle at all, and are reliant on their feet, bicycles, and transit.
You are probably going to walk a lot.  Maybe more than you do now.
People in the city tend to do that, especially if they are on a budget.
 I personally *hate* spending money on cabs.  Up where the office is
it's all buses, but they are buses that run pretty frequently

Apartments:
checkout viewit.ca to get an idea of what you're up against. I'm not at
all familiar with what it's like in that part of the city, but i think
you've got a blend of single family homes, possibly split up into
apartments, and big apartment buildings.  I've never lived in the
latter, and don't really ever want to.  That far north you're probably
not looking at $2000 a month.  You can probably find something nice not
that far from the office for around not too far over 1000/month

ie: http://viewit.ca/vwExpandView.aspx?Vit=141773

I wouldn't advise taking an apartment you haven't seen in person, no
matter how nice the pictures look. Also, parking for two vehicles may be
tough, unless your car is small and you can put the bike and the car in
a single spot.

You're probably going to end up eating a lot of money with the whole
resignation / moving thing.  Moving is expensive and there isn't really
any way to avoid it.  When i left my last job i left them with a list of
my contract work rates.  I billed them for a couple grand of work over
the next three or four months.  You might want to consider offering them
something like that.

You're exaggerating about the difference in prices of things i think.
The only place where that might be true is on restaurant food.  In my
experience small town restaurants charge nothing for massive meals.  My
advice would be to cook at home as much as possible ;)

About bike maintenance, you should start checking out forums about
whatever kind of bike it is you have.  It's pretty much guaranteed that
there are a huge number of bike nerds on the internet that live in
toronto and love nothing more than helping people wrench their bikes
when they need wrenching.  If you drove a rally car instead of a bike i
could introduce you to a bunch of exactly those kinds of people.


Hope that helps,

Adam

From jztam at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  4 07:26:46 2013
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 07:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <524E32F8.7090007@utoronto.ca>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
	<524E32F8.7090007@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <1380896806.66938.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

BIG PICTURE.? 
You'll get over your anxiety, the bright lights, hustle and bustle.? Give it 6 months. ;-)

MOVING OUT:
Agreed, SSM to Toronto is a huge adjustment,? but just think of your adjustment if you had gotten a similar gig in Sudbury or Ottawa? ;-)? IOW,? you would still incur the moving expenses and an elevated cost of living until you find the sweet deals and freebies, and grow your social circles.? As a Plus, you are already warmly invited to a gig or two a month at the TPM meetings (last Thursday of the month, except October, on the 24th).

TORONTO EXPENSES
Apartment. The living accomodations will be your biggest expense, so decide if you are going to rent a Nice place to entertain guests, or a modest bachelor ... to eat, cook and sleep in.? Your pad should be safe, warm and comfy,? and reasonably priced for your budget, much the same as Ottawa selections ;-)? Hunt around, it's not easy but not impossible. Get a place within 30mins walk of your workplace, just in case you need to walk/bicycle/TTC.

Motor Vehicles.? Insurance and operating costs? more than? "free" in Toronto/Ottawa.? Leave all your insurance "registered" at your SSM addresses for? the rest of the year, until you are darn sure you are going to stay in Toronto.? Bring your car/bike back to Dad twice a year for preventative stuff;? and buy a CAA membership that covers motorbike towing.
Perhaps just mothball the car and keep the motorbike in Toronto, for the first year. 
Ask your Dad if you can store the car at his place, and quiesce the insurance on the car down to "Non-driving, Theft and Vandalism only" until you want to drive it again, BUT keep the insurance alive, just don't drive it without reinstating FULL insurance liability on it.? Depending on what motorbike/tires you are running, you could milk the riding season for up to 8 or 9 months of the year since it's a LOT warmer on the roads than up north. Then just bicycle or TTC (Take The Comet) everywhere. Taxis are for people with expense accounts.

Mechanics.? I do my own wrenching, for the easy Car stuff.? When I need air tools, I bring it to my mechanic at 111 Strachan Ave, about 25mins South of Wingold.? Hit me offlist for prolonged motorbike discussions.

Food and Drink.?? Shop and cook once a week and freeze your meals,,, eat healthy for under $10/day.? However, It'll cost you about $15-$40/day to eat lunch and dinner OUT at reasonable restaurants (just like SSM), but I'm pretty sure the Wingold area is slim pickings for extreme meal deals... walk/bicycle? the neighbourhood to find out.. Booze is the same LCBO price all over Ontario. For nights out, Toronto's cheapest Pint is priced almost the same as SSM's ... think Casey's?? or Gigi's, so find out the Cheapie Nights or BYOB.

As a young, employed man in Toronto, it should not be too hard to find the fun on a budget AND further your career.




________________________________
 From: Adam Prime <adam.prime at utoronto.ca>
To: toronto-pm at pm.org 
Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 11:16:08 PM
Subject: Re: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
 

Welcome,

(i haven't read any of the other replies, but i'm sending this as is anyway)

Moving from the Sault to Toronto is going to be a huge adjustment
without a doubt.? Rest assured though, that there are lots of people
that came from communities even smaller than where you grew up that have
moved to the city and thrived.? Theres a lot in your novel, so i'm just
going to address some highlights, at random

Getting around:
Transit in the city is safe.? The subway is pretty reliable. Surface
routes are generally reasonably reliable as well (meaning buses and
streetcars)? It's 3 bucks cash fare to go anywhere you can get to on
transit.? You can get a monthly pass for 125 or so, and there is a
federal tax break associated with those passes so you get some of that
money back.? There are *many* people that live in the city without any
vehicle at all, and are reliant on their feet, bicycles, and transit.
You are probably going to walk a lot.? Maybe more than you do now.
People in the city tend to do that, especially if they are on a budget.
I personally *hate* spending money on cabs.? Up where the office is
it's all buses, but they are buses that run pretty frequently

Apartments:
checkout viewit.ca to get an idea of what you're up against. I'm not at
all familiar with what it's like in that part of the city, but i think
you've got a blend of single family homes, possibly split up into
apartments, and big apartment buildings.? I've never lived in the
latter, and don't really ever want to.? That far north you're probably
not looking at $2000 a month.? You can probably find something nice not
that far from the office for around not too far over 1000/month

ie: http://viewit.ca/vwExpandView.aspx?Vit=141773

I wouldn't advise taking an apartment you haven't seen in person, no
matter how nice the pictures look. Also, parking for two vehicles may be
tough, unless your car is small and you can put the bike and the car in
a single spot.

You're probably going to end up eating a lot of money with the whole
resignation / moving thing.? Moving is expensive and there isn't really
any way to avoid it.? When i left my last job i left them with a list of
my contract work rates.? I billed them for a couple grand of work over
the next three or four months.? You might want to consider offering them
something like that.

You're exaggerating about the difference in prices of things i think.
The only place where that might be true is on restaurant food.? In my
experience small town restaurants charge nothing for massive meals.? My
advice would be to cook at home as much as possible ;)

About bike maintenance, you should start checking out forums about
whatever kind of bike it is you have.? It's pretty much guaranteed that
there are a huge number of bike nerds on the internet that live in
toronto and love nothing more than helping people wrench their bikes
when they need wrenching.? If you drove a rally car instead of a bike i
could introduce you to a bunch of exactly those kinds of people.


Hope that helps,

Adam

_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Fri Oct  4 08:25:14 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:25:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
Message-ID: <2ee510385c0ad26f837c6458ddabc4a7.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


It looks as though the rest of the group have said most of the things I
had considered, so I'll try not to repeat too much. Google Maps and
Steetview are your indispensable tools here. (But use DuckDuckGo for
searching; it's in Perl and not intrusive.)

> I have a 3 year community college diploma titled "Computer
> Programmer/Analyst" and graduated in 2007.

Did that involve staying somewhere other than at home, (the only valuable
part of the student experience for most people)? If it did, you really
shouldn't find it hard to move to The Centre Of The Universe. (An attitude
usually observed in people who have an inferiority complex with respect to
New York.) If not, the adjustment should still be quite painless.

>  Mostly working with Microsoft technologies (and hating every second

An autodidact whose prejudices accord nicely with mine. :-)*

> - Commuting. I've never driven in traffic as heavy as Toronto,

A lot depends on timing. If you insist on doing the same thing at the same
time as everyone else, yes it's congested. (At which time, the traffic's
practically stationary, so it's not hard.) A little creativity with your
timing can reduce the perceived density dramatically. The same is true of
the TTC; it's miserable at peak times, tolerable otherwise.

> I love driving, but I'm genuinely afraid of driving in Toronto. It looks
> like chaos. I can't imagine how people avoid accidents.

You've obviously never seen Montreal traffic. :-)* It's been said that
Toronto drivers would be very good, if they always drove indoors. (Any
moisture, especially in solid form, appears to bewilder them.)
Fender-benders are routine, which is why the insurance rates are so high.

I would suggest leaving both vehicles in the country. (If the car's
something interesting, store it; much cheaper there. If it's just
transport, sell it. You won't want the cycle here in the winter, either.)

If you need a vehicle in the city, car-"sharing" schemes, (actually,
hourly rental), like Zip-Car offer a variety of vehicles. for example, you
might want a convertible for a jaunt on a nice day, and then a pick-up for
schlepping. You can get both from the same outfit.

I'd recommend drawing concentric circles around the office, the inner one
about a kilometre radius, the outer about 3-4km, and look for
accommodation in that torus. It represents a walk to work of 15-45
minutes, which is about right to offset a sedentary job like programming.
It makes you practically indifferent to TTC strikes, storms, traffic
snarls, and other irritations. If the weather's evil, the TTC's probably
there, but coming from Northern Ontario, you'll probably wonder what we
wusses are whining about.

> Taxis are certainly not affordable.

I don't remember the last time I took a taxi. They mostly seem to
transport welfare cases home from the Beer Store because they can't carry
their 2-4.

> - As a side note, I like people, but preferrably from a few feet
> away. In crowds I get anxious and nervous and self-conscious.

Am I actually writing to myself here? See above notes about timing and
density. You might like to read "Quiet":
http://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/ There are plenty of parks and
secluded places available in Toronto; just check to see if they're
deserted for a good reason. :-)*

> I don't know the first thing about finding an apartment,

Three words; "Search engine" and "Craigslist". Most big buildings have
their own websites, and even small places are usually referenced online.
You might want to start with a furnished place temporarily. Just a place
to sleep, eat, and park your clothes while you look around. I was going to
suggest sharing an apartment as an option, but it sounds as though, like
me, you would rather live up a tree than with other people.

>  I imagine finding any apartment would be challenging, let alone one
that > I like.

Competition between landlords is quite fierce here. (A lot of overseas
investors have bought condos, which adds to the rental supply downtown.)

> Coordinating resignation at my current job. ... Legalities aside, I
> imagine both companies will be sore about it if I suddenly leave in the
> middle of this "contract". I'm afraid of potentially burning a bridge
> that I may need to fall back on.

You might want to consult a writmonger about your legal responsibilities,
but I agree it's important not to alienate previous employers. (Word gets
around.) If you can, ensure that you've left stuff clean, (documented,
&c., handed over if possible), so they're not mad at you. (You may not be
as significant as you think. :-)* )

> I have to transport two vehicles, and a small amount of large furniture.

I'd leave the stuff in storage for a while. For temporary use, camping or
patio stuff is tolerable, cheap, (especially now), and easily portable.
You won't need anything if you start with a furnished place.

> The truth is that I just have no idea what the cost of living down there
> will be.

Some things will be more expensive, (if only because of choice), but
others will actually be cheaper. (Lower transport costs.) There is a lot
to do that costs nothing, (Perlmongers) or very little, especially around
the University. The library system, for example, is a great asset. If you
opt for the "Bright lights, Big city" scenario of expensive rental company
and nose-candy, you can go through a lot of money, but that's a choice.
(An improbable one, based on what you've written.)

> It seems risky to gamble on it and figure it out when I get there.

> rent could easily be $2000/mo. for example.
>
That wouldn't be hard, but it would be a pretty nice place. The sky could
be the limit, depending on your definition of "nice".

>
> What do you guys consider the bare minimum to survive comfortably
> in the city?

It's possible (but not fun) to survive on about $1500/month.


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 08:37:38 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:37:38 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker
In-Reply-To: <2ee510385c0ad26f837c6458ddabc4a7.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <20131004020233.GA3239@test-chamber-1.castopulence.org>
	<2ee510385c0ad26f837c6458ddabc4a7.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <0F0AB19C-2E35-4E68-8DFB-3C5AA04F4285@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-04, at 11:25 AM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> I don't know the first thing about finding an apartment,
> 
> Three words; "Search engine" and "Craigslist". Most big buildings have
> their own websites, and even small places are usually referenced online.
> You might want to start with a furnished place temporarily. Just a place
> to sleep, eat, and park your clothes while you look around. I was going to
> suggest sharing an apartment as an option, but it sounds as though, like
> me, you would rather live up a tree than with other people.
> 
>> I imagine finding any apartment would be challenging, let alone one
> that > I like.
> 
> Competition between landlords is quite fierce here. (A lot of overseas
> investors have bought condos, which adds to the rental supply downtown.)

I'd suggest having a realtor show you around as someone else has already suggested.  The realtor's services should be free (to you) as s/he'll likely take the first and/or last month's rent from the landlord in return for bringing in the new tenant.  You'll have someone who knows the market far better than you likely ever will and will be motivated to get you settled in somewhere.  Also, a decent realtor can negotiate your price for you.  Rental rates are negotiable and this person negotiates for a living.  If that doesn't work out, you can fall back on doing the hard work yourself.  I've done it both ways and after going the realtor route, I can't see myself actually trying to do this stuff on my own again.

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From jkeen at verizon.net  Fri Oct  4 14:01:58 2013
From: jkeen at verizon.net (Jim Keenan)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:01:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker, foreign hacker
Message-ID: <3030865.5574168.1380920518512.JavaMail.root@vms170019>

On 10/04/13, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
 
"... you really shouldn't find it hard to move to The Centre Of The Universe. (An attitude usually observed in people who have an inferiority complex with respect to New York.) If not, the adjustment should still be quite painless."


Well, when *I'm* in town, Toronto *is* The Centre Of The Universe!  ;-)


And speaking of which ... Have you definitely confirmed that the next Toronto Perlmongers meeting will be on Thursday, October 24 (4th but not last Thursday in the month)?


I need to get out of Gotham for a spell, and since I haven't been to Toronto in 20 months, I'm considering coming up.


Please let me know ASAP so I can make travel plans.


Thank you very much.
Jim Keenan




From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 14:15:52 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 17:15:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] country hacker, city hacker, foreign hacker
In-Reply-To: <3030865.5574168.1380920518512.JavaMail.root@vms170019>
References: <3030865.5574168.1380920518512.JavaMail.root@vms170019>
Message-ID: <43D38A7F-6A25-435F-B803-C5E790DF38BD@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-04, at 5:01 PM, Jim Keenan wrote:

> On 10/04/13, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
> 
> "... you really shouldn't find it hard to move to The Centre Of The Universe. (An attitude usually observed in people who have an inferiority complex with respect to New York.) If not, the adjustment should still be quite painless."
> 
> 
> Well, when *I'm* in town, Toronto *is* The Centre Of The Universe!  ;-)

Indeed!

> 
> 
> And speaking of which ... Have you definitely confirmed that the next Toronto Perlmongers meeting will be on Thursday, October 24 (4th but not last Thursday in the month)?
> 
> 
> I need to get out of Gotham for a spell, and since I haven't been to Toronto in 20 months, I'm considering coming up.
> 
> 
> Please let me know ASAP so I can make travel plans.

Alan has confirmed that we can get a room on the 24th.  All that remains is for Dave Doyle *cough* to set up the Meetup date.  I'd say it's official.  :)

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From psema4 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 10:42:51 2013
From: psema4 at gmail.com (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 13:42:51 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
Message-ID: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>

Saw this mentioned in Perl Weekly today...  Just wondering if anyone
on the list has used Devel::hdb - if so I'd be interested in hearing
what the experience was like.

<http://perlmaven.com/debugging-perl-with-hdb>

Best,
-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more

  Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
  http://code.google.com/p/atomos/

  Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
  http://www.pirateparty.ca/

From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Oct  7 11:52:08 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:52:08 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6319e71bff9236774d607ae54e1695a0.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


It strikes me as introducing yet another level of complexity, when problem
solving requires simplifying matters as much as possible.


From rdice at pobox.com  Mon Oct  7 11:59:06 2013
From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:59:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <6319e71bff9236774d607ae54e1695a0.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<6319e71bff9236774d607ae54e1695a0.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAPPqpsp1dXPZNq2sfr_yn-XG-P=pngSDOWidwQO23VANWxFuww@mail.gmail.com>

Not used it, but I suppose one of these days I will be happy to give it at
try.

I really enjoy using these kinds of debuggers, contra arocker, but my
problem is that any application I write that is big & complicated enough
that I need an uber-debugger to find its bugs is also big & complicated
enough to bring whatever uber-debugger I try using to its knees.  So just
when I need them, they fail me.

I would be most appreciative if Devel::hdb is the one that breaks this
trend.

Cheers...






On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:52 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

>
> It strikes me as introducing yet another level of complexity, when problem
> solving requires simplifying matters as much as possible.
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Oct  7 12:02:14 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:02:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Skype on Linux
Message-ID: <f13fd76bf1a62d453c26e8753be1530a.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


Has anyone any experience with setting this up?

When I installed it yesterday, and checked the operation with the test
site, everything worked. When I needed to use it today, it received and
reproduced sound, operated video in both directions, and left me imitating
a goldfish, because it appeared not to accept sound input. (I'm not sure
exactly where the microphone is supposed to be on my machine, but it
didn't seem to matter for the first test.)

I know I should be using Ekiga, but I need to talk to a Skype user. (If
interoperability is possible, I'll consider that.)


From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Oct  7 12:05:21 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:05:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <CAPPqpsp1dXPZNq2sfr_yn-XG-P=pngSDOWidwQO23VANWxFuww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<6319e71bff9236774d607ae54e1695a0.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAPPqpsp1dXPZNq2sfr_yn-XG-P=pngSDOWidwQO23VANWxFuww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c70dffd5635932fe984cbd7873e21a2.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

> but my problem is that any application I write that is big & complicated
> enough that I need an uber-debugger to find its bugs is also big &
> complicated enough to bring whatever uber-debugger I try using to its
> knees.

That sounds like a Godelproblem. (See "Goedel, Escher, Bach".)


From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Mon Oct  7 12:06:07 2013
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:06:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Skype on Linux
In-Reply-To: <32515_1381172553_r97J2Whv005326_f13fd76bf1a62d453c26e8753be1530a.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <32515_1381172553_r97J2Whv005326_f13fd76bf1a62d453c26e8753be1530a.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <5253061F.4060805@utoronto.ca>

I used it over the weekend to talk to my wife from pittsburgh and it 
worked fine.  I only did audio, and i had a headset though.

Adam


On 13-10-07 03:02 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>
> Has anyone any experience with setting this up?
>
> When I installed it yesterday, and checked the operation with the test
> site, everything worked. When I needed to use it today, it received and
> reproduced sound, operated video in both directions, and left me imitating
> a goldfish, because it appeared not to accept sound input. (I'm not sure
> exactly where the microphone is supposed to be on my machine, but it
> didn't seem to matter for the first test.)
>
> I know I should be using Ekiga, but I need to talk to a Skype user. (If
> interoperability is possible, I'll consider that.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>


From stuart at morungos.com  Mon Oct  7 12:13:03 2013
From: stuart at morungos.com (Stuart Watt)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:13:03 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <4c70dffd5635932fe984cbd7873e21a2.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<6319e71bff9236774d607ae54e1695a0.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAPPqpsp1dXPZNq2sfr_yn-XG-P=pngSDOWidwQO23VANWxFuww@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c70dffd5635932fe984cbd7873e21a2.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <E75306A4-BA2D-4E09-A5B3-7913D2DE1B25@morungos.com>

Plus, even in Perl, I've had the occasional Heisenbug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenbug). 

--S

On 2013-10-07, at 3:05 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> That sounds like a Godelproblem. (See "Goedel, Escher, Bach".)

--
Stuart Watt
stuart at morungos.com / twitter.com/morungos


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From legrady at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 12:39:05 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:39:05 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd7OManbw_c-4ritgde6rqPwvu2syU0GEZVEbh-dP6MAqA@mail.gmail.com>

I like debugging using the ordinary debugger, under emacs ( M-x debug ).
I've used it for CGI scripts as well. I don't really see what the advantage
of debugging cia the browser would be, unless certain modules and modes
interfere with ordinary running of the code.


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Scott Elcomb <psema4 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Saw this mentioned in Perl Weekly today...  Just wondering if anyone
> on the list has used Devel::hdb - if so I'd be interested in hearing
> what the experience was like.
>
> <http://perlmaven.com/debugging-perl-with-hdb>
>
> Best,
> --
>   Scott Elcomb
>   @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more
>
>   Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
>   http://code.google.com/p/atomos/
>
>   Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
>   http://www.pirateparty.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From talexb at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 12:53:17 2013
From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:53:17 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Skype on Linux
In-Reply-To: <f13fd76bf1a62d453c26e8753be1530a.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <f13fd76bf1a62d453c26e8753be1530a.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CANgc-azg5G6_Q+yv9yrvFA6xxO8a6hiMwD+1e0mp4pJdKMTEMw@mail.gmail.com>

I've also used Skype on Linux multiple times, with a USB headset. If I
haven't used it in a while, I always make a test call before I want to use
it to make sure that it works properly.

Strangely enough, I haven't used it on Windows 7 until a few weeks ago --
the same USB headset worked fine for me there as well.

Alex



On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:02 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

>
> Has anyone any experience with setting this up?
>
> When I installed it yesterday, and checked the operation with the test
> site, everything worked. When I needed to use it today, it received and
> reproduced sound, operated video in both directions, and left me imitating
> a goldfish, because it appeared not to accept sound input. (I'm not sure
> exactly where the microphone is supposed to be on my machine, but it
> didn't seem to matter for the first test.)
>
> I know I should be using Ekiga, but I need to talk to a Skype user. (If
> interoperability is possible, I'll consider that.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>



-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
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From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 13:14:48 2013
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 21:14:48 +0100
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>

Saw this, tried it, didn't really work on Firefox. There's a brief thread on Perl Monks, someone else could only get it to work on Chrome (not FF or IE), and mentioned another browser debugger, whose name escapes me...

-QM

On Oct 7, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Scott Elcomb <psema4 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Saw this mentioned in Perl Weekly today...  Just wondering if anyone
> on the list has used Devel::hdb - if so I'd be interested in hearing
> what the experience was like.
> 
> <http://perlmaven.com/debugging-perl-with-hdb>
> 
> Best,
> -- 
>  Scott Elcomb
>  @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more
> 
>  Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
>  http://code.google.com/p/atomos/
> 
>  Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
>  http://www.pirateparty.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

From mike at stok.ca  Mon Oct  7 14:48:23 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 17:48:23 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>


On 2013-10-07, at 4:14 PM, Quantum Mechanic <quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Saw this, tried it, didn't really work on Firefox. There's a brief thread on Perl Monks, someone else could only get it to work on Chrome (not FF or IE), and mentioned another browser debugger, whose name escapes me...
> 
> -QM

Is this the beginning of the Google Chrome monoculture? ;-)

Mike

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.







From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Tue Oct  8 03:34:20 2013
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:34:20 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 17:48:23 -0400
Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca> wrote:

> 
> On 2013-10-07, at 4:14 PM, Quantum Mechanic <quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Saw this, tried it, didn't really work on Firefox. There's a brief thread
> > on Perl Monks, someone else could only get it to work on Chrome (not FF or
> > IE), and mentioned another browser debugger, whose name escapes me...
> > 
> > -QM
> 
> Is this the beginning of the Google Chrome monoculture? ;-)
> 

I had written about it here:

http://shlomif-tech.livejournal.com/52195.html

Essentially someone wrote ?Oh, and it works only [on] Chrome.
Ancient-browsers-please-be-gone!? while including Firefox in the "ancient"
browsers. When I discussed it with the poster's partner, he said that Firefox
was ancient because its codebase dated back many years ago - possibly back to
Netscape 1.0. But as Joel on Software notes in
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html old source code does
not rust, and it's not a good excuse to throw away the source code, start
from scratch and believe you can do better the second time. (Or maybe you
can a bit, but it will still be very time consuming and refactoring the code
will usually be much faster.).

Anyway, back to the topic: it does seem that Google Chrome is the browser most
beloved on hipsters, who seem to find it as an excuse to avoid supporting
other browsers. Personally, I tried Google Chrome and did not like it, but
can use it for brief amounts of time, and due to
http://shlomif-hsite.livejournal.com/11327.html I've grown suspicious of
Google, and cannot really trust them, especially given the fact that by
default GChrome reports many things to Google, and someone once told me that
Google is now "90% evil". So I'm sticking with Firefox.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Why I Love Perl - http://shlom.in/joy-of-perl

mplayer 0.9.999.2010.03.11-rc5-adc83b19e793491b1c6ea0fd8b46cd9f32e592fc is
now available for download.
    ? Shlomi Fish and d3x.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From jkeen at verizon.net  Tue Oct  8 04:47:06 2013
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 07:47:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Insufficient description for October meeting
Message-ID: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>

http://to.pm.org/meetings/45/ says:

"perl5i Tom has written a series of blog posts about ."

About ... ?

Could you post a link to the blog posts?

Thank you very much.
Jim Keenan

From legrady at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 05:34:46 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:34:46 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Insufficient description for October meeting
In-Reply-To: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>
References: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5txDGqbC-Ooc6UOqGiqWMjdfjuZjHJio3qCRmdPYOUBg@mail.gmail.com>

http://which-dwarf-are-you.blogspot.ca/2013_03_01_archive.html   and going
forward


But if you read them now, what will I talk about?

Tom


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net> wrote:

> http://to.pm.org/meetings/45/ says:
>
> "perl5i Tom has written a series of blog posts about ."
>
> About ... ?
>
> Could you post a link to the blog posts?
>
> Thank you very much.
> Jim Keenan
> ______________________________**_________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 05:48:48 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Insufficient description for October meeting
In-Reply-To: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>
References: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B9ED76F9-229D-4D6A-9F9E-3322B6489D63@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-08, at 7:47 AM, James E Keenan wrote:

> http://to.pm.org/meetings/45/ says:
> 
> "perl5i Tom has written a series of blog posts about ."
> 
> About ... ?
> 
> Could you post a link to the blog posts?

It's actually there, but very confusing:

perl5i Tom has written a series of blog posts about .

The "perl5i" is the link.  For some reason when the XML is parsed, any href tags get moved to the beginning of the paragraph.  Same issue with the second paragraph on that page.  

https://github.com/toronto-perl-mongers/tpm-website/issues/13

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 05:51:26 2013
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:51:26 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Insufficient description for October meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd5txDGqbC-Ooc6UOqGiqWMjdfjuZjHJio3qCRmdPYOUBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5253F0BA.70101@verizon.net>
	<CAG0DXd5txDGqbC-Ooc6UOqGiqWMjdfjuZjHJio3qCRmdPYOUBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE8nsr5kjdKkyxinJR-wekLjgrcGAS6JsAjuDzOVZOg+UA@mail.gmail.com>

Uh oh.  On Meetup.com I linked to each post because the description was so
short.

Sorry Tom!

--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com


On 8 October 2013 08:34, Tom Legrady <legrady at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://which-dwarf-are-you.blogspot.ca/2013_03_01_archive.html   and
> going forward
>
>
> But if you read them now, what will I talk about?
>
> Tom
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> http://to.pm.org/meetings/45/ says:
>>
>> "perl5i Tom has written a series of blog posts about ."
>>
>> About ... ?
>>
>> Could you post a link to the blog posts?
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>> Jim Keenan
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Oct  8 07:55:49 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:55:49 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> When I discussed it with the poster's partner, he said that Firefox
> was ancient because its codebase dated back many years ago -

Which possibly implies that it works?

The problem with the IT trade's chronic neophilia is the constant
reinvention of wheels, and their use in arrangements that have repeatedly
been shown to fail. I hate having to invoke <boring old fart mode> to
explain why the new shiny is the same as the broken stuff in the corner.




From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Thu Oct 10 23:31:57 2013
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:31:57 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi arocker,

On Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:55:49 -0400
arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> 
> > When I discussed it with the poster's partner, he said that Firefox
> > was ancient because its codebase dated back many years ago -
> 
> Which possibly implies that it works?

Indeed. As Joel on Software later notes in my link
( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ):

<<<
The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been
used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed.
There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around
on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like an old
Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a teddy
bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of all new material?
>>>

( Note that Joel has a sequel to this article here:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html .)

> 
> The problem with the IT trade's chronic neophilia is the constant
> reinvention of wheels, and their use in arrangements that have repeatedly
> been shown to fail. I hate having to invoke <boring old fart mode> to
> explain why the new shiny is the same as the broken stuff in the corner.

I agree.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Perl Humour - http://perl-begin.org/humour/

Chuck Norris refactors 10 million lines of Perl code before lunch.
    ? http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From jbl at jbldata.com  Fri Oct 11 05:29:53 2013
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:29:53 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <293a5722-3ba9-4892-b88b-c7a99075bb52@email.android.com>

The problem here is that we have decision makers who have some experience writing maintenance code or doing system administration, and who likely consider themselves (and have convinced their superiors as such) that they are technically savvy. Most often in my experience these individuals are making decisions on what software to use based on what is popular in industry, by influence of marketing or familiarity (they are used to previous versions of the same product). And these decisions are usually not informed by any understanding of software design or language theory. And so it goes that new and shiney often wins against the mature and seemingly unremarkable. 

Shlomi Fish <shlomif at shlomifish.org> wrote:
>Hi arocker,
>
>On Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:55:49 -0400
>arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>
>> 
>> > When I discussed it with the poster's partner, he said that Firefox
>> > was ancient because its codebase dated back many years ago -
>> 
>> Which possibly implies that it works?
>
>Indeed. As Joel on Software later notes in my link
>( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ):
>
><<<
>The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code
>has been
>used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've
>been fixed.
>There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting
>around
>on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like
>an old
>Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a
>teddy
>bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of all new material?
>>>>
>
>( Note that Joel has a sequel to this article here:
>http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html .)
>
>> 
>> The problem with the IT trade's chronic neophilia is the constant
>> reinvention of wheels, and their use in arrangements that have
>repeatedly
>> been shown to fail. I hate having to invoke <boring old fart mode> to
>> explain why the new shiny is the same as the broken stuff in the
>corner.
>
>I agree.
>
>Regards,
>
>	Shlomi Fish
>
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
>Perl Humour - http://perl-begin.org/humour/
>
>Chuck Norris refactors 10 million lines of Perl code before lunch.
>    ? http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/
>
>Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post -
>http://shlom.in/reply .
>_______________________________________________
>toronto-pm mailing list
>toronto-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Fri Oct 11 07:13:36 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:13:36 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <a4c375f7c1ad0350067bec904247b938.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> Indeed. As Joel on Software later notes in my link
> ( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ):
>
> ( Note that Joel has a sequel to this article here:
> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html .)
>

Notice the dates on those articles. Half the programs he mentions will be
completely obscure to most of his readers now.

I feel rather like the rabbi in this story:
http://rabbicandybox.blogspot.ca/2008/09/talking-to-wall-joke.html




From arocker at Vex.Net  Fri Oct 11 07:36:38 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:36:38 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <293a5722-3ba9-4892-b88b-c7a99075bb52@email.android.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<293a5722-3ba9-4892-b88b-c7a99075bb52@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <fc691b70e92b19ea678c600090da3df2.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> And so it goes that new and shiney often wins against the mature and
> seemingly unremarkable.
>

There's a career-strategy consideration. Being "innovative", and having
experience with whatever  is currently fashionable translates to
employment prospects and $$. Merely solving business problems with
whatever is at hand is sooo uncool.

Firing and Recruitment Prevention Departments only ask for "experience".
They never qualify the specification with "successful".


From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Sat Oct 12 04:32:43 2013
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:32:43 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <a4c375f7c1ad0350067bec904247b938.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<45A7BDE8-3F9A-48A9-B73B-366E1E7BD4CA@stok.ca>
	<20131008133420.2211aa63@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<5f78669d79e6f4adfdc79d1529f2e2d5.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<20131011093157.5024426f@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<a4c375f7c1ad0350067bec904247b938.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <20131012143243.08010194@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi arocker,

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:13:36 -0400
arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> >
> > Indeed. As Joel on Software later notes in my link
> > ( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ):
> >
> > ( Note that Joel has a sequel to this article here:
> > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html .)
> >
> 
> Notice the dates on those articles. Half the programs he mentions will be
> completely obscure to most of his readers now.
> 

Maybe.

> I feel rather like the rabbi in this story:
> http://rabbicandybox.blogspot.ca/2008/09/talking-to-wall-joke.html
> 

Very nice joke, and I didn't hear it before. I think I'll add it to
http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/shlomif-fav.html . Thanks!

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
My Favourite FOSS - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/favourite/

G?del?s Incompleteness Theorem is about to be replaced by the
[Clarissa] Darling ?Like, Totally!? Completeness Theorem.
    ? http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Clarissa/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From legrady at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 22:48:46 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 01:48:46 -0400
Subject: [tpm] brian d foy merit badges
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd7eTke2tfvxpOnfyUcNU+qFHJSf_AEP0QjsnV8bdr0E5g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/make-perl-nerd-merit-badges/description
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From legrady at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 22:48:46 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 01:48:46 -0400
Subject: [tpm] brian d foy merit badges
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd7eTke2tfvxpOnfyUcNU+qFHJSf_AEP0QjsnV8bdr0E5g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/make-perl-nerd-merit-badges/description
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Sat Oct 19 08:43:16 2013
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:43:16 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131019184316.693da15e@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi Quantum Mechanic,

On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 21:14:48 +0100
Quantum Mechanic <quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Saw this, tried it, didn't really work on Firefox. There's a brief thread on
> Perl Monks, someone else could only get it to work on Chrome (not FF or IE),
> and mentioned another browser debugger, whose name escapes me...
> 

I was able to interact with hdb comfortably on Firefox here on Mageia Linux
Cauldron. I'm using firefox-24.0-5.mga4 (the so-called ESR Release I think),
and I whitelisted the localhost from NoScript, and I don't have AdBlock
installed. But everything I tried - step/run/step over ; setting a breakpoint,
inspecting a value/etc. just worked. One should note that Devel::hdb uses
jQuery, Twitter Bootstrap, and other tried and tested portable technologies,
which should better ensure its portability. 

I wonder why it doesn't work for you in Firefox. Can you try in a new
Firefox profile? See:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-firefox-stores-user-data?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Profiles

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> -QM
> 
> On Oct 7, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Scott Elcomb <psema4 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Saw this mentioned in Perl Weekly today...  Just wondering if anyone
> > on the list has used Devel::hdb - if so I'd be interested in hearing
> > what the experience was like.
> > 
> > <http://perlmaven.com/debugging-perl-with-hdb>
> > 
> > Best,
> > -- 
> >  Scott Elcomb
> >  @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more
> > 
> >  Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
> >  http://code.google.com/p/atomos/
> > 
> >  Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
> >  http://www.pirateparty.ca/
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
List of Portability Libraries - http://shlom.in/port-libs

Chuck Norris hasn?t taken these facts down yet, so they must be true.
(by Cantide)
    ? http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From arocker at Vex.Net  Tue Oct 22 09:45:20 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:45:20 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Solutions and kibitzers
Message-ID: <54e9f21b309f77df7093d30ac3547e21.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


On the weekend, I responded to a new posting on LinkedIn's Perl discussion
group,"Needhelp to parse data using Perl, AWK or any unix commad " with a
quickie script, and updated it with an improved version the following day.

It seemed to be a simple problem, parsing some sort of *ML stream, and
wc's output on the script was  25  88 526. (6 of those 25 lines do the
actual work.)

To my surprise, I've received all sorts of abuse for not using an XML
parser module. (To which the poster may or may not have had easy access.)
Even though it appears to have solved the poster's problem, the critics
have devoted more keystrokes to complaining than I did producing results.
Now I'm beginning to have doubts.

Would anyone care to read the discussion and comment?


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Tue Oct 22 09:54:35 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:54:35 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Solutions and kibitzers
In-Reply-To: <54e9f21b309f77df7093d30ac3547e21.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <54e9f21b309f77df7093d30ac3547e21.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <4822030C-9274-447E-8E54-1723FDDC3E1D@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-22, at 12:45 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

> 
> On the weekend, I responded to a new posting on LinkedIn's Perl discussion
> group,"Needhelp to parse data using Perl, AWK or any unix commad " with a
> quickie script, and updated it with an improved version the following day.
> 
> It seemed to be a simple problem, parsing some sort of *ML stream, and
> wc's output on the script was  25  88 526. (6 of those 25 lines do the
> actual work.)
> 
> To my surprise, I've received all sorts of abuse for not using an XML
> parser module. (To which the poster may or may not have had easy access.)
> Even though it appears to have solved the poster's problem, the critics
> have devoted more keystrokes to complaining than I did producing results.
> Now I'm beginning to have doubts.
> 
> Would anyone care to read the discussion and comment?

Without having read the discussion in question, if you post this sort of solution on StackOverflow, you usually get pointed at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4231382/regular-expression-pattern-not-matching-anywhere-in-string as an argument against doing the hard work by hand rather than using a parser.  Look for the "Oh Yes You Can Use Regexes to Parse HTML!" answer.  


--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From jkeen at verizon.net  Tue Oct 22 18:58:21 2013
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 21:58:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Thursday night
Message-ID: <52672D3D.2060502@verizon.net>

I am coming to Toronto for 4 days starting on Thursday and I look 
forward to attending TPM Thursday night at the customary location.

Jim Keenan

From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 06:25:15 2013
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Kwan Tamakanic)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:25:15 +0100
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <20131019184316.693da15e@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<20131019184316.693da15e@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <CAGTZozeJD5X31ZbLaEU8uABYUCKKjd4GQtJNT_YZ7W2er=wenw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Shlomi,

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at shlomifish.org> wrote:

> <snip>
> I wonder why it doesn't work for you in Firefox. Can you try in a new
> Firefox profile? See:
>
>
> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-firefox-stores-user-data?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Profiles
>
>
I created a new profile, but still had the same problem, key bindings don't
work. I haven't had time to try other setups or browsers.

-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Thu Oct 24 07:32:36 2013
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 17:32:36 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Devel::hdb - Visual debugging, in a web browser
In-Reply-To: <CAGTZozeJD5X31ZbLaEU8uABYUCKKjd4GQtJNT_YZ7W2er=wenw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEx-jsMRtwPQixdj9cg6XvSnYjVL0V05h89MF8qNp+nDbvLVNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<EBD77194-DC1C-48C4-88F3-CC5C33DDD07B@gmail.com>
	<20131019184316.693da15e@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>
	<CAGTZozeJD5X31ZbLaEU8uABYUCKKjd4GQtJNT_YZ7W2er=wenw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131024173236.498eae94@telaviv1.shlomifish.org>

Hi Kwan,

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:25:15 +0100
Kwan Tamakanic <quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Shlomi,
> 
> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at shlomifish.org> wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> > I wonder why it doesn't work for you in Firefox. Can you try in a new
> > Firefox profile? See:
> >
> >
> > https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-firefox-stores-user-data?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Profiles
> >
> >
> I created a new profile, but still had the same problem, key bindings don't
> work. I haven't had time to try other setups or browsers.
>

Ah, I don't think I tried the keyboard-based bindings - I think all I did was
use the mouse and pressed stuff on the screen (which worked nicely enough in
Firefox).

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
List of Portability Libraries - http://shlom.in/port-libs

I feel much better, now that I?ve given up hope.
    ? Ashleigh Brilliant

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 11:58:47 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:58:47 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Thursday night
In-Reply-To: <52672D3D.2060502@verizon.net>
References: <52672D3D.2060502@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C380EE1-BBE6-4D53-9923-1ECB9A51D581@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-22, at 9:58 PM, James E Keenan wrote:

> I am coming to Toronto for 4 days starting on Thursday and I look forward to attending TPM Thursday night at the customary location.

Now that Jim is officially in the country, what's our official room assignment for tonight?

http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/events/143887132/

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From jztam at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 24 12:03:58 2013
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Thursday night
In-Reply-To: <4C380EE1-BBE6-4D53-9923-1ECB9A51D581@gmail.com>
References: <52672D3D.2060502@verizon.net>
	<4C380EE1-BBE6-4D53-9923-1ECB9A51D581@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1382641438.76393.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

We have our choice of either:
?Class C or E
c/o? Alan
/jordan






On Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:58:47 PM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:
 

On 2013-10-22, at 9:58 PM, James E Keenan wrote:

> I am coming to Toronto for 4 days starting on Thursday and I look forward to attending TPM Thursday night at the customary location.

Now that Jim is officially in the country, what's our official room assignment for tonight?

http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/events/143887132/

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Oct 24 12:40:49 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:40:49 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Thursday night
Message-ID: <c2f6c003d183c06bf708b64eeccd31f9.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

> Now that Jim is officially in the country, what's our official room
> assignment for tonight?
>

Room C.



From legrady at gmail.com  Sat Oct 26 12:45:42 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:45:42 -0400
Subject: [tpm] New-style core Perl OO
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd4iEU22j3CBo8x-SU71gS37Fqk3dMKqeoe=NJQW+FqqAA@mail.gmail.com>

Since I made reference to Stevan Little's new effort to add objects to core
Perl, here's his presentation to the Pittsburgh Perl Workshop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YZNwO-uCVg


version 0.02 --- definitely not ready for prime time

http://search.cpan.org/~stevan/mop-0.02-TRIAL/lib/mop.pm



Tom
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From legrady at gmail.com  Sat Oct 26 13:26:10 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:26:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] perl5i presentation
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5foNfBoBna0ASbFvqz9MWf3C+LGjcQGL+Yi+zzh_pbiw@mail.gmail.com>

Slides of my presentation are available at
http://www.scribd.com/doc/179222736/Perl5i-pdf, speaker notes at
http://www.scribd.com/doc/179224145/Perl5i-notes-pdf.

The video recording (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSKbVm4SnUk) stops
short, before the end of my presentation, and totally misses out Jim's
quickie and Olaf's metacpan VM  talks. I doubt there's anything we can do
about that. But it might be worth eliminating the first 3:54 of set-up
banter, prior to the beginning of the talk. Is there a way we can do that?
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From mike at stok.ca  Sun Oct 27 07:00:35 2013
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 10:00:35 -0400
Subject: [tpm] perl5i presentation
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd5foNfBoBna0ASbFvqz9MWf3C+LGjcQGL+Yi+zzh_pbiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd5foNfBoBna0ASbFvqz9MWf3C+LGjcQGL+Yi+zzh_pbiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79CA95B7-35BD-4F99-9F53-8082249669CF@stok.ca>


On Oct 26, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Tom Legrady <legrady at gmail.com> wrote:

> Slides of my presentation are available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/179222736/Perl5i-pdf, speaker notes at http://www.scribd.com/doc/179224145/Perl5i-notes-pdf.
> 
> The video recording (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSKbVm4SnUk) stops short, before the end of my presentation, and totally misses out Jim's quickie and Olaf's metacpan VM  talks. I doubt there's anything we can do about that. But it might be worth eliminating the first 3:54 of set-up banter, prior to the beginning of the talk. Is there a way we can do that?

I'd be interested in knowing how to successfully edit the hangout videos so I can take my address out of the pair programming one. It seems that although hangouts can record long sessions, if we want to upload videos (for example the edited versions) then they need to be in chunks of up to 15 minutes long.

Does anyone on the list have the ability or pointers to how to edit hangout videos?

Mike

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.






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From arocker at Vex.Net  Sun Oct 27 08:15:06 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 11:15:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] perl5i presentation
In-Reply-To: <79CA95B7-35BD-4F99-9F53-8082249669CF@stok.ca>
References: <CAG0DXd5foNfBoBna0ASbFvqz9MWf3C+LGjcQGL+Yi+zzh_pbiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<79CA95B7-35BD-4F99-9F53-8082249669CF@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <a97c8e6c24c79eb958370b74d04e857e.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> Does anyone on the list have the ability or pointers to how to edit
> hangout videos?
>

Some suggestions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjOULEIe6zw

There seems to be plenty of video editing software available for Macs, and
for Linux:

http://open-tube.com/10-awesome-free-and-open-source-video-editors


From arocker at Vex.Net  Sun Oct 27 09:13:34 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 12:13:34 -0400
Subject: [tpm] New-style core Perl OO
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd4iEU22j3CBo8x-SU71gS37Fqk3dMKqeoe=NJQW+FqqAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd4iEU22j3CBo8x-SU71gS37Fqk3dMKqeoe=NJQW+FqqAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <506709efbcde94a4f0c27c682f28bf04.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

> Since I made reference to Stevan Little's new effort to add objects to
> core Perl, here's his presentation to the Pittsburgh Perl Workshop.
>

Unfortunately, the audio is typical bathroom quality, and the video's
blurry. If his notes are available, they'



From legrady at gmail.com  Sun Oct 27 13:08:31 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 16:08:31 -0400
Subject: [tpm] New-style core Perl OO
In-Reply-To: <506709efbcde94a4f0c27c682f28bf04.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAG0DXd4iEU22j3CBo8x-SU71gS37Fqk3dMKqeoe=NJQW+FqqAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<506709efbcde94a4f0c27c682f28bf04.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5JBKY4JAY9md+pVjRbQYv4SgZvLTiZwntw1HZCyfGcDA@mail.gmail.com>

It's still better than the rest of the PPW workshops. You can actually read
the slides and understand the words he says, which is far from true of the
other recordings.


On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:13 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> > Since I made reference to Stevan Little's new effort to add objects to
> > core Perl, here's his presentation to the Pittsburgh Perl Workshop.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, the audio is typical bathroom quality, and the video's
> blurry. If his notes are available, they'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From legrady at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 08:01:31 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:01:31 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>

I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.

The first complication I came across is in the slides that git-s the
various repositories. It DOESN'T git metacpan-developer, yet the next step
is to cd into that directory. As well, the slide contains "cd
../metacpan-developer". It is really an uncle directory, one level up? or
is it a sibling, contained within .../metacpan/? I have it as a sibling.

When I run "vagrant up and vagrant ssh" I get an error message about an
unsupported version of VirtualBox, telling me to run 4.0 or 4.1. Bu when I
run virtualbox and click on Help->Contents, the title page of the maual
shows "Version 4_1_18 Debian".

Virtualbox tells me I'm missing virtualbox-ose, so I'm adding that.


Tom
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 08:12:09 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:12:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <872FFA40-E2B3-40F1-B35B-3C7A8CD386B9@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-30, at 11:01 AM, Tom Legrady wrote:

> I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.

Great!

> 
> The first complication I came across is in the slides that git-s the various repositories. It DOESN'T git metacpan-developer, yet the next step is to cd into that directory. As well, the slide contains "cd ../metacpan-developer". It is really an uncle directory, one level up? or is it a sibling, contained within .../metacpan/? I have it as a sibling.

The README is here:

https://github.com/CPAN-API/metacpan-developer

metacpan and metacpan-developer are sibling folders, so it sounds like you have it set up correctly.

??? metacpan
?   ??? cpan-api
?   ??? metacpan-explorer
?   ??? metacpan-puppet
?   ??? metacpan-web
??? metacpan-developer

> 
> When I run "vagrant up and vagrant ssh" I get an error message about an unsupported version of VirtualBox, telling me to run 4.0 or 4.1. Bu when I run virtualbox and click on Help->Contents, the title page of the maual shows "Version 4_1_18 Debian".
> 
> Virtualbox tells me I'm missing virtualbox-ose, so I'm adding that.

I'm no VirtualBox expert, but let us know how you make out with that.  This also reminds me that I need to post my slides. :)

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From arocker at Vex.Net  Wed Oct 30 09:15:14 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:15:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

> I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.
>

Is it my imagination, or is the software world beginning to strangle on
its own complexity?

Once upon a time, to produce a useful program, one had to be know a
programming language, and how to write on coding pads.

Then, it became necessary to know an operating system.

Next, came the ability to use an on-line editor.

And so on, through multiple languages simultaneously, (e.g. JCL), new and
supposedly useful paradigms like O-O, (and the numerous different
libraries that spawned), source code control systems, (good things, but
something more to learn), markup languages, virtual machines, how to
install them...

Getting a simple program going seems to involve about seventeen steps now.
(And, of course, employers who want five years experience in packages
launched three years ago.)


From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 09:31:24 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:31:24 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <771103CA-2AA7-437A-B127-3EB4B75666E2@gmail.com>

On 2013-10-30, at 12:15 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:

>> I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.
>> 
> 
> Is it my imagination, or is the software world beginning to strangle on
> its own complexity?

I don't have a real opinion on that, but complicated problems don't always have simple solutions.  As a parallel to this, try to get the PAUSE code up and running in a similar amount of time.  https://github.com/andk/pause You have to have a working copy of mod_perl (1!) just to get started.  At least this was the case a couple of years ago.  I don't know if any progress has been made: http://rjbs.manxome.org/rubric/entry/1904  Not to mention you have to know a lot about how PAUSE is supposed to work.  What we're trying to do here is give you access to a service with multiple layers without forcing you to know about everything that is happening under the hood.

The VM isn't perfect yet, though.  That's why we're trying to see what happens when people try to install it.

Olaf

--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 09:52:48 2013
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:52:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hOzgDa+-=S1Y0FGRdqWc1Mf0UQLn-fv2kTnJP1Fjj9ypQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:15 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> > I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.
> >
>
> Is it my imagination, or is the software world beginning to strangle on
> its own complexity?
>

No, its not your imagination.
The world (not just the software world) is getting (too) complex.
Unfortunately, the younger world will tell you its notgetting strangled,
but on the other hand they aren't supporting it either.


> Once upon a time, to produce a useful program, one had to be know a
> programming language, and how to write on coding pads.
>

You had coding pads!    ... All I had were toggle switches for ones and
zeros.
You had ones and zeros! ... All I had were zeros!

Old joke... but then again, so am I.

Then, it became necessary to know an operating system.
>
> Next, came the ability to use an on-line editor.
>
> And so on, through multiple languages simultaneously, (e.g. JCL), new and
> supposedly useful paradigms like O-O, (and the numerous different
> libraries that spawned), source code control systems, (good things, but
> something more to learn), markup languages, virtual machines, how to
> install them...
>

For those people, I usually retort with:
'Every extra line of code... just adds another opportunity for another
error.'
Minimize... minimize... minimize your complexity (if at all possible).

Note I said 'minimize' ... not 'optimize'.


> Getting a simple program going seems to involve about seventeen steps now.
>

I guess the point is...  'it (MetaCpan) is not a simple program'.
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Wed Oct 30 09:59:10 2013
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:59:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <771103CA-2AA7-437A-B127-3EB4B75666E2@gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<771103CA-2AA7-437A-B127-3EB4B75666E2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7341c2c29e4482e52a30e7c1b8a35dbe.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> I don't have a real opinion on that, but complicated problems don't always
> have simple solutions.

What I was grumbling about was complicated solutions to simple problems.
"Solutions" shouldn't be more complicated than the problem they set out to
solve.

> What we're trying to do here is give you access to a service with multiple
> layers without forcing you to know about everything that is happening

I didn't mean a particular criticism of MetaCpan's process; it seems quite
normal by today's standards.

Adding a program used to be a simple matter of putting a file in an
appropriate directory. Now, it's unpack a tarball, initiate an install,
hope that it uses compatible libraries, has no unfulfilled dependencies,
and doesn't do anything ugly to the existing directory hierarchy.


From legrady at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 10:15:51 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:15:51 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <7341c2c29e4482e52a30e7c1b8a35dbe.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<771103CA-2AA7-437A-B127-3EB4B75666E2@gmail.com>
	<7341c2c29e4482e52a30e7c1b8a35dbe.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd50huGYoJUm0pe7oLXMWLxGUvh3-0yGVzJVdCndp9VX7g@mail.gmail.com>

I remember setting up DNS & Bind, when my office arranged a 56K-baud
permanent line in '93. Step one was to buy the O'Reilly book, I was just
grateful it had been published.

Tom


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:59 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> >
> > I don't have a real opinion on that, but complicated problems don't
> always
> > have simple solutions.
>
> What I was grumbling about was complicated solutions to simple problems.
> "Solutions" shouldn't be more complicated than the problem they set out to
> solve.
>
> > What we're trying to do here is give you access to a service with
> multiple
> > layers without forcing you to know about everything that is happening
>
> I didn't mean a particular criticism of MetaCpan's process; it seems quite
> normal by today's standards.
>
> Adding a program used to be a simple matter of putting a file in an
> appropriate directory. Now, it's unpack a tarball, initiate an install,
> hope that it uses compatible libraries, has no unfulfilled dependencies,
> and doesn't do anything ugly to the existing directory hierarchy.
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From legrady at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 10:56:25 2013
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:56:25 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <872FFA40-E2B3-40F1-B35B-3C7A8CD386B9@gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<872FFA40-E2B3-40F1-B35B-3C7A8CD386B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5wZo3mr56-QGiS7Q-ur+DM=Lq44eaP2F=ETaBoEdkgMg@mail.gmail.com>

I should have read metacpan-developer/HELP.md ...

     Make sure you have ... VirtualBox  [4.2.12+]

Not quite consistent with the error message I got recommending 4.0 or 4.1.

I ugraded to 4.3 using the VirtualBox web site instructions, using apt-get.
But it still urges me to use 4.0 or 4.1.

Off to an appt.

Tom


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Olaf Alders <olaf.alders at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 2013-10-30, at 11:01 AM, Tom Legrady wrote:
>
> > I tried following the instructions in Olaf's talk.
>
> Great!
>
> >
> > The first complication I came across is in the slides that git-s the
> various repositories. It DOESN'T git metacpan-developer, yet the next step
> is to cd into that directory. As well, the slide contains "cd
> ../metacpan-developer". It is really an uncle directory, one level up? or
> is it a sibling, contained within .../metacpan/? I have it as a sibling.
>
> The README is here:
>
> https://github.com/CPAN-API/metacpan-developer
>
> metacpan and metacpan-developer are sibling folders, so it sounds like you
> have it set up correctly.
>
> ??? metacpan
> ?   ??? cpan-api
> ?   ??? metacpan-explorer
> ?   ??? metacpan-puppet
> ?   ??? metacpan-web
> ??? metacpan-developer
>
> >
> > When I run "vagrant up and vagrant ssh" I get an error message about an
> unsupported version of VirtualBox, telling me to run 4.0 or 4.1. Bu when I
> run virtualbox and click on Help->Contents, the title page of the maual
> shows "Version 4_1_18 Debian".
> >
> > Virtualbox tells me I'm missing virtualbox-ose, so I'm adding that.
>
> I'm no VirtualBox expert, but let us know how you make out with that.
>  This also reminds me that I need to post my slides. :)
>
> Olaf
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>
>
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 11:50:53 2013
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 14:50:53 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd5wZo3mr56-QGiS7Q-ur+DM=Lq44eaP2F=ETaBoEdkgMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<872FFA40-E2B3-40F1-B35B-3C7A8CD386B9@gmail.com>
	<CAG0DXd5wZo3mr56-QGiS7Q-ur+DM=Lq44eaP2F=ETaBoEdkgMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFAE5685-461A-4097-A429-13BFA946074F@gmail.com>


On 2013-10-30, at 1:56 PM, Tom Legrady wrote:

> I should have read metacpan-developer/HELP.md ... 

I should have uploaded my slides.  ;)

> 
>      Make sure you have ... VirtualBox  [4.2.12+]
> 
> Not quite consistent with the error message I got recommending 4.0 or 4.1.
> 
> I ugraded to 4.3 using the VirtualBox web site instructions, using apt-get. But it still urges me to use 4.0 or 4.1.

Could you paste the output to a github gist (or something similar)?  It would be helpful to see the whole message in context.  Thanks for helping out with this!

Olaf
--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From mattp at cpan.org  Wed Oct 30 12:14:22 2013
From: mattp at cpan.org (Matthew Phillips)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:14:22 -0400
Subject: [tpm] MetaCpan VM
In-Reply-To: <7341c2c29e4482e52a30e7c1b8a35dbe.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <CAG0DXd7jfLtMAJnfHyq2uTQENdkD46AJ6Sfi++3PDJEM4+Ok6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1baf4796110406cedb2bb97b49debf84.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<771103CA-2AA7-437A-B127-3EB4B75666E2@gmail.com>
	<7341c2c29e4482e52a30e7c1b8a35dbe.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAFWy7AYZJNwf=Z6GQvCmq_9X=+72j57JE9EZb18HxzFaHP7wFg@mail.gmail.com>

To MetaCpan's credit the added complexity of a virtual machine is actually
removing complexity of an entire stack required to run metacpan, which is
solving a very complex multi-faceted problem. Using the VM saves you from
setting up
-an OS
-a perl installation
-elasticSearch
-metacpan itself
  -both the web part, and the api part
  - its cpan dep tree, including catalyst,moose,elasticSearch
-the minicpan logic, its scraping
-probably some other things I haven't thought of

It's not a simple system - the vagrant / vm solution saves a fair bit of
effort.

Cheers,
Matt


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:59 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

> >
> > I don't have a real opinion on that, but complicated problems don't
> always
> > have simple solutions.
>
> What I was grumbling about was complicated solutions to simple problems.
> "Solutions" shouldn't be more complicated than the problem they set out to
> solve.
>
> > What we're trying to do here is give you access to a service with
> multiple
> > layers without forcing you to know about everything that is happening
>
> I didn't mean a particular criticism of MetaCpan's process; it seems quite
> normal by today's standards.
>
> Adding a program used to be a simple matter of putting a file in an
> appropriate directory. Now, it's unpack a tarball, initiate an install,
> hope that it uses compatible libraries, has no unfulfilled dependencies,
> and doesn't do anything ugly to the existing directory hierarchy.
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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