From mashton at 4all.com  Fri Jun  1 07:43:15 2012
From: mashton at 4all.com (mashton)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:43:15 -0400
Subject: [tpm] OT: Are SSDs really worth purchasing to speed up our
 computing experience?
In-Reply-To: <1338440036.19196.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <CAFbj_+cD8+nG0qBmd_2KSveF5_Qpd9Kce=rjbAncEFe0ioiuxQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBF53160-F980-47F1-8169-2D99C4AFB506@morungos.com>
	<4FC6A169.2010206@verizon.net>
	<CAAyyWE_1kxz_Yw12b-2YUD+Gb1RCdE5r4b+Os+FZ=_zoLpcjZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKczvCa=u6EDafsKd+=u6PVBBuH7FcgoQTJx_bRw5WJTF0bomQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1338440036.19196.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <CAH+uui2ioWFURQDyvB0e5Pt7M3gZezGXOJtLVNDXHKpxE37Z+g@mail.gmail.com>

You'd be amazed at the impact on your linux boot ups.

I just built a new 1U server, with 2 120GB Intel 520 series Sata3 SSDs
mirrored and 2x1TB SATA drives. I use centOS as my server OS. On
installation I made a small partion for /boot on the SSD , then I had 2
mirrored LVMs one the balance of the SSD and the other the SATA mirror. On
installation I put /etc on the sata mirror, and the balance on the SSD
mirror. At first boot up after installing I thought something was broken or
wrong, since after the last bios post I had a login prompt in under 9
seconds (that 9 seconds includes he 3 second image countdown centOS does,
from there 6 seconds).

So I rebooted, same thing. Now I had done a minimal install, so I then
added KVM ( which is what this server was to be used for ), and all the
other tools and utilities.

Rebooted, and dang prompt was now only 10 seconds! Was very impressed. The
server is still on my testing bench and I'm playing with a few different
configurations for the VM's to maximize the speed of hosted VM's on
different image types and disk partioning methods.

Right now I have 2 VM's, one a Win2000 server running SQLServer ( have to
due to legacy apps not yet ported ) and a centOS VM for mySQL. So now when
I boot, the host and both VM's are up and running in about 25 seconds from
last bios post.

The 500 series of intel SSDs are not cheap, these were about 180 each, but
they are commercial grade and in a server should last 5 years.

Mike

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Liam R E Quin <liam at holoweb.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 23:53 -0400, Antonio Sun wrote:
>
> > For any old Linux box, with several TB of HD, will investing in an SSD
> > really make much different?
>
> Probably, yes. Disk access tends to be a major bottleneck on Unix-like
> systems.
>
> The traditional trick was to put /bin and /etc on a faster disk, along
> with /tmp and swap. For Linux, /usr/lib64 would be a good candidate.
>
> But it depends on your usage.
>
> If you have 16 TB of RAM and only 12T of disk it'll go even faster if
> you have a background process to access all of disk to get it all into
> the cache... but most of us have massively more disk than memory.
>
> Boot time is only a few seconds these days anyway, but saving a fraction
> of a second on starting every process would very quickly add up.
>
> Liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
> Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From aimass at yabarana.com  Sun Jun  3 23:37:13 2012
From: aimass at yabarana.com (Alejandro Imass)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 02:37:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Misdirected effort
In-Reply-To: <d463b044aeaec322c3c0a246d3bf044f.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <d463b044aeaec322c3c0a246d3bf044f.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAHieY7RqW5t4PY=Y+z-Ah-jJUVjLgNx8eUkFuWBEiEYWo1en8g@mail.gmail.com>

I already mentioned some stuff on this thread but I just came across this
and I think it's pertinent to the topic in question.

http://blogs.perl.org/users/joel_berger/2012/06/why-full-closure-support-makes-perl-great-for-science.html

On May 7, 2012 3:50 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

>
> An article in May's "Linux Journal" mentions a site called "Software
> Carpentry" http://software-carpentry.org/about/ninety-second-pitch/ which
> aims to teach scientists how to program.
>
> A noble aim, but they spoil it by picking Python as the language of
> instruction. How can we show them the error of their ways, apart from
> referencing the role of Perl in bioinformatics?
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Jun  4 06:49:02 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:49:02 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cpancover and MetaCPAN
Message-ID: <c783c4a6affa8170ba5ee72139391978.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


Does this: http://blogs.perl.org/users/paul_johnson/2012/05/cpancover.html
affect MetaCPAN?


From arocker at Vex.Net  Mon Jun  4 07:48:04 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:48:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
Message-ID: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


At the last TPM meeting, I raised the question of complexity in
programming, and how to classify it.

We learn human languages by starting with simple, immediate, concepts,
(Food! Potty!), and gradually expand the physical, temporal, and
conditional dimensions that can be expressed; "If had eaten, and drunk
four coffees three hours ago, I might want directions to a suitable
facility". Given the known limitations of short-term memory, "chunking"
entities into suitable classes, (metals, ferrous metals, ceramics),
becomes important.

Programming languages like assembler aren't complicated; move a value to a
place, something is true or not. They're easy to learn completely, but,
lacking power, they leave the complication to the programmer to solve. If
the problem is basically simple, (measure a temperature reading, light an
LED if it exceeds 30C), that's straightforward. If the problem is to model
an economy, or render a graphic, it's a nightmare.

With a language as rich as Perl 6, many programmers may not need to
explore its full power, any more than a tourist needs to learn how to
discuss philosophy just to get a meal and a bed. Training will need to be
divided into levels, from basic to philosophical.

The question is, what is a reasonable hierarchy of complexity in computer
programming? (I hope the concept of "complexity" is fairly obvious in the
context; if not, we'll have to define that first.

As a starting point, I'd suggest the simplest useful level is programs
that take a stream of structured data and reduce or transform it in an
obvious way. That requires the basics, sequence, decision, and iteration,
I/O, classification, (e.g. isalpha), and formatting. (Roughly, Perl 4.)

Next is dealing with basic unstructured data, the ability to create and
manipulate more complex data structures, manipulating OS facilities beyond
simple file-handling. Object orientation begins to be useful here.

The most complicated non-research programs are "higher-order" ones that
deal with unpredictable (and untrustworthy) inputs, complex data
structures, (possibly unprecedented), and/or really elaborate outputs.
This would be the OS/compiler/scene-renderer/CAD/speech recognition level.

My experience runs out about half-way up the scale, so I could well be
wrong, missing subtleties, too fine/too coarse, or some unknown unknown.

Am I shouting into the void, or has anyone else any views on these points,
"what is complexity and what language features become relevant, where?"






From olaf at vilerichard.com  Mon Jun  4 08:21:27 2012
From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Alders Olaf)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:21:27 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Cpancover and MetaCPAN
In-Reply-To: <c783c4a6affa8170ba5ee72139391978.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <c783c4a6affa8170ba5ee72139391978.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>


On 2012-06-04, at 9:49 AM, arocker at vex.net wrote:

> 
> Does this: http://blogs.perl.org/users/paul_johnson/2012/05/cpancover.html
> affect MetaCPAN?

Not directly, but if he gets coverage of the whole thing we might want to link to distribution results from our distribution pages.  Or, if he adds an API, we can look at integrating that way.  It's a really useful project, though.  I needed some code coverage metrics recently and Devel::Cover gave me more information than I was looking for with very little effort.  It's a great tool.

Olaf

From jztam at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 09:58:23 2012
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
In-Reply-To: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>
Message-ID: <1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Q1: Which perl modules are in scope here?
Q2: With which Sites have you had good experiences with, in terms of cost, useability, API's?
Please, thanks in advance.
/jordan

From antoniosun at lavabit.com  Mon Jun  4 10:56:20 2012
From: antoniosun at lavabit.com (Antonio Sun)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:56:20 -0400
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
In-Reply-To: <1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>
	<1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKczvCbaYJ-LdQpw1reUsJXFXZGAZ4Fztyc156nvbet8aZJC5g@mail.gmail.com>

I had some posit experiences with WWW::Mechanize on ImageShack before.
But it's been a while, YMMV.

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, J Z Tam <jztam at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Q1: Which perl modules are in scope here?
> Q2: With which Sites have you had good experiences with, in terms of cost,
> useability, API's?
> Please, thanks in advance.
> /jordan
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From ait at p2ee.org  Mon Jun  4 17:54:19 2012
From: ait at p2ee.org (Alejandro Imass)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 20:54:19 -0400
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
In-Reply-To: <1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>
	<1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHieY7R6DtwvuFpy4D5z5Wptkkh7WFxynA8SjGZp0h_3ybXm=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, J Z Tam <jztam at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Q1: Which perl modules are in scope here?
> Q2: With which Sites have you had good experiences with, in terms of cost, useability, API's?

I tell you what, if this thread can help me find a picture site that
can meet these requirements (I don't care about paying for it), I will
pitch in and help with the API part. I am well versed in Web
automation and even for AJAX/DHTML intensive site using Mozrepl and
mech::firefox

Must haves:
1) That I can upload images and share them to individuals only (private albums)
2) That people can access them without having to subscribe to the
site, just click the link and presto
Nice to haves:
3) That you can make downloading/save/print optional per share (e.g. I
want you to see it but not necessarily download)
4) mp4 support with compatible player for Linux, Mac (+ iOS) and Windoze

Yeah, I know that 3 is probably easily hackable but at least some
basic protections from the "normal" user such as context menu block,
and even an anti-screen-shot protection (client-side JS showing only
random pieces at a time just enough for a still image[1]).

And one final question, if such a site does not exists, don't you guys
think it would be very cool that it did? The target: people like me
who are on Facebook only because it helps me keep in touch with
people, but despise it in general, and I'd like to share stuff with
people without the fear of these pictures appearing on fb without my
authorization. Nor do I want to put mi images and videos somewhere
that wants to keep the right to them. I think there should be a simple
and clean _paid_ picture hosting service where you are in complete
control of your information.

Thanks,

-- 
Alejandro Imass

Notes:

[1] I have JS code we developed for banks and gov that do this so it
can't be that hard for an image hosting site to offer such sort of
anti-screen-shot protection, and also to implement server side
protections on the image as well. Example, the server never delivers
the image but rather pieces of it that are rebuilt using some math
formula and that is request-specific.


> Please, thanks in advance.
> /jordan
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

From legrady at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 05:24:13 2012
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 08:24:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
In-Reply-To: <CAHieY7R6DtwvuFpy4D5z5Wptkkh7WFxynA8SjGZp0h_3ybXm=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>
	<1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<CAHieY7R6DtwvuFpy4D5z5Wptkkh7WFxynA8SjGZp0h_3ybXm=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0DXd5SD9DiT+exc_Cd7uuQkf1+jP8X83qK59i+7_DU+DAOug@mail.gmail.com>

I use picasaweb, run by Google. They have a generous free allowance, I pay
$5 a year to have 20 GB.

You can go to
https://picasaweb.google.com/113240670238277950940/SymesTransferStation?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCN77gcLRxI6xrAE&feat=directlink
to view my photos of an abandoned industrial building. Only people who have
the secret URL can get in, and there's an option to reset the secret link,
disconnecting people who have the link. Galleries can also be visible to
the public, or totally private

Tom

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Alejandro Imass <ait at p2ee.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, J Z Tam <jztam at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Q1: Which perl modules are in scope here?
> > Q2: With which Sites have you had good experiences with, in terms of
> cost, useability, API's?
>
> I tell you what, if this thread can help me find a picture site that
> can meet these requirements (I don't care about paying for it), I will
> pitch in and help with the API part. I am well versed in Web
> automation and even for AJAX/DHTML intensive site using Mozrepl and
> mech::firefox
>
> Must haves:
> 1) That I can upload images and share them to individuals only (private
> albums)
> 2) That people can access them without having to subscribe to the
> site, just click the link and presto
> Nice to haves:
> 3) That you can make downloading/save/print optional per share (e.g. I
> want you to see it but not necessarily download)
> 4) mp4 support with compatible player for Linux, Mac (+ iOS) and Windoze
>
> Yeah, I know that 3 is probably easily hackable but at least some
> basic protections from the "normal" user such as context menu block,
> and even an anti-screen-shot protection (client-side JS showing only
> random pieces at a time just enough for a still image[1]).
>
> And one final question, if such a site does not exists, don't you guys
> think it would be very cool that it did? The target: people like me
> who are on Facebook only because it helps me keep in touch with
> people, but despise it in general, and I'd like to share stuff with
> people without the fear of these pictures appearing on fb without my
> authorization. Nor do I want to put mi images and videos somewhere
> that wants to keep the right to them. I think there should be a simple
> and clean _paid_ picture hosting service where you are in complete
> control of your information.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Alejandro Imass
>
> Notes:
>
> [1] I have JS code we developed for banks and gov that do this so it
> can't be that hard for an image hosting site to offer such sort of
> anti-screen-shot protection, and also to implement server side
> protections on the image as well. Example, the server never delivers
> the image but rather pieces of it that are rebuilt using some math
> formula and that is request-specific.
>
>
> > Please, thanks in advance.
> > /jordan
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From ait at p2ee.org  Tue Jun  5 08:29:36 2012
From: ait at p2ee.org (Alejandro Imass)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:29:36 -0400
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
In-Reply-To: <CAG0DXd5SD9DiT+exc_Cd7uuQkf1+jP8X83qK59i+7_DU+DAOug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43EEF846-584D-4505-8E2C-2B8A8F662635@vilerichard.com>
	<1338829103.47376.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<CAHieY7R6DtwvuFpy4D5z5Wptkkh7WFxynA8SjGZp0h_3ybXm=w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAG0DXd5SD9DiT+exc_Cd7uuQkf1+jP8X83qK59i+7_DU+DAOug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHieY7SpDirvc_dMdEZ0QwcKT6x5iPkyjV7wtAS14wTLwCgSsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Tom Legrady <legrady at gmail.com> wrote:
> I use picasaweb, run by Google. They have a generous free allowance, I pay
> $5 a year to have 20 GB.
>
> You can go
> to?https://picasaweb.google.com/113240670238277950940/SymesTransferStation?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCN77gcLRxI6xrAE&feat=directlink
> to view my photos of an abandoned industrial building. Only people who have
> the secret URL can get in, and there's an option to reset the secret link,
> disconnecting people who have the link. Galleries can also be visible to the
> public, or totally private
>


Thanks! I tested Picasa but people without Picasa and/or Google Apps
can't seem to view the images.

-- 
Alejandro

From legrady at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 08:31:40 2012
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:31:40 -0400
Subject: [tpm] RFI: how to batch upload pics to image-hosting sites.
Message-ID: <ciqj0jt5g39jgp41emmewlsl.1338910287976@email.android.com>

I share with family and friends who are not members 

Alejandro Imass <ait at p2ee.org> wrote:

>On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Tom Legrady <legrady at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I use picasaweb, run by Google. They have a generous free allowance, I pay
>> $5 a year to have 20 GB.
>>
>> You can go
>> to?https://picasaweb.google.com/113240670238277950940/SymesTransferStation?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCN77gcLRxI6xrAE&feat=directlink
>> to view my photos of an abandoned industrial building. Only people who have
>> the secret URL can get in, and there's an option to reset the secret link,
>> disconnecting people who have the link. Galleries can also be visible to the
>> public, or totally private
>>
>
>
>Thanks! I tested Picasa but people without Picasa and/or Google Apps
>can't seem to view the images.
>
>-- 
>Alejandro

From jkeen at verizon.net  Wed Jun  6 17:58:01 2012
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:58:01 -0400
Subject: [tpm] to.pm.org web site:  When will new version be up?
Message-ID: <4FCFFC99.4020909@verizon.net>

Had occasion to go to the web site tonight.  Noted it was not the new 
one we were working on at February meeting.

jimk

From jztam at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  7 06:32:58 2012
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 06:32:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] to.pm.org web site:  When will new version be up?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFC99.4020909@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1339075978.94698.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

@jkeen  That would be _my_  inaction.  Hope to get to it this month.  
/jordan
   

--- On Wed, 6/6/12, James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net>
> Subject: [tpm] to.pm.org web site:  When will new version be up?
> To: toronto-pm at pm.org
> Received: Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 8:58 PM
> Had occasion to go to the web site
> tonight.? Noted it was not the new one we were working
> on at February meeting.
> 
> jimk
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> 

From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 06:34:10 2012
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:34:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] to.pm.org web site: When will new version be up?
In-Reply-To: <1339075978.94698.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FCFFC99.4020909@verizon.net>
	<1339075978.94698.YahooMailClassic@web125702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE_7whgpX-pf1UJW8HnhXPnxevj2Tri2yZXUcu=Of1fhjA@mail.gmail.com>

Inaction Jackson.

Pretty sure that's a movie.  Or something close to that. :D
--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com


On 7 June 2012 09:32, J Z Tam <jztam at yahoo.com> wrote:

> @jkeen  That would be _my_  inaction.  Hope to get to it this month.
> /jordan
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/6/12, James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > From: James E Keenan <jkeen at verizon.net>
> > Subject: [tpm] to.pm.org web site:  When will new version be up?
> > To: toronto-pm at pm.org
> > Received: Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 8:58 PM
> > Had occasion to go to the web site
> > tonight.  Noted it was not the new one we were working
> > on at February meeting.
> >
> > jimk
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 12:00:05 2012
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 15:00:05 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 10:48 AM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

>
> At the last TPM meeting, I raised the question of complexity in
> programming, and how to classify it.
>

... snip ...


> The question is, what is a reasonable hierarchy of complexity in computer
> programming? (I hope the concept of "complexity" is fairly obvious in the
> context; if not, we'll have to define that first.
>

To me complexity of streams and structured and unstructured data
really don't change the thought process; they are all basically the
low-level, process, type of thinking.

In other words, most algorithms (once understood) are SMOP
('Simple Matter Of Programming')

To me, the next level up is dealing with concurrency, parallelism,
and time-synchronism.
Things like handling the same 'kind' of requests at the same time,
considering that some requests might be quick and others slow
so you don't want the slow ones delaying the quick ones.
... and the associated handling of the logical interlocks and
'synchronous' access to any data (structures) that the application
may have to maintain internally (... given your programming language).

After that you get into the domain-specific functions/algorithms
which is a separate issue that may or may not have 'complexity'.

Am I shouting into the void, or has anyone else any views on these points,
> "what is complexity and what language features become relevant, where?"
>

With respect to those issues above, my problems these days revolve around:
"I know what I need to accomplish... but,
how do I accomplish it in 'this' language?

--------

Another issue is 'handling errors'.

I'm not talking about 'catching exceptions' or listening to return values
or errno; but what stupid things can your user's do (in either input or
'sequencing') that can cause your app to miss states, or wander
through informational states that you never thought of in advance
(ie. _ALL_ of the boundary conditions).  You know...
"I've fixed all the 'known' bugs"... but what about the 'unknown' bugs'?
or
"I've made it idiot-proof"... but the world invents a bigger idiot!

Fulko
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Jun  7 12:47:01 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 15:47:01 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b84f9588b96eab15fea458356a3221f1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


I'll deal with the other points later, but I want to address this one now.
>
> Another issue is 'handling errors'.
>
> I'm not talking about 'catching exceptions' or listening to return values
> or errno; but what stupid things can your user's do (in either input or
> 'sequencing') that can cause your app to miss states, or wander
> through informational states that you never thought of in advance
> (ie. _ALL_ of the boundary conditions).  You know...
> "I've fixed all the 'known' bugs"... but what about the 'unknown' bugs'?

> Fulko
>

TPM are probably bored with me talking about destructive testing, but at
the risk of repeating myself; the company that taught me to program had a
design standard that started every system with a data validation program,
to check every field in the input for reasonable values.

Before these programs were put into production,there was a final ordeal
they had to survive; reading their own object code, input backwards. To
pass, they had to output a reasonable set of error messages, and terminate
normally, even though what they'd just swallowed was about as unreasonable
as it was possible to get.


From indy at indigostar.com  Thu Jun  7 12:58:39 2012
From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 15:58:39 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FE673D6A75BB48B2BA049CA9467D4CA7@indy>

> "I've made it idiot-proof"... but the world invents a bigger idiot!
He steps forward. 
A hush falls on the crowd. 
His hands hover over the keyboard... 
He suddenly lurches forward.
He unplugs the power cord!

Indy Singh
IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com

 
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 12:59:04 2012
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 15:59:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <b84f9588b96eab15fea458356a3221f1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<b84f9588b96eab15fea458356a3221f1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hMY+YMyvc2yz_F6Ae_tpfUH5De57+TzbM3p3oGtVNJZpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:47 PM, <arocker at vex.net> wrote:

... snip ...


> TPM are probably bored with me talking about destructive testing, but at
> the risk of repeating myself; the company that taught me to program had a
> design standard that started every system with a data validation program,
> to check every field in the input for reasonable values.
>
> Before these programs were put into production,there was a final ordeal
> they had to survive; reading their own object code, input backwards. To
> pass, they had to output a reasonable set of error messages, and terminate
> normally, even though what they'd just swallowed was about as unreasonable
> as it was possible to get.
>

That's just one possible error mode, what about all the other permutations?

But seriously, I'm talking about more than 'field validation' but
algorithmic
equivalence (or non-equivalence... where a+b != b+a)
[Or would that be 'temporal significance'?]
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Jun  7 13:54:33 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 16:54:33 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hMY+YMyvc2yz_F6Ae_tpfUH5De57+TzbM3p3oGtVNJZpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<b84f9588b96eab15fea458356a3221f1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hMY+YMyvc2yz_F6Ae_tpfUH5De57+TzbM3p3oGtVNJZpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f4172b167ea1758a890b0ac116ec7d8.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> But seriously, I'm talking about more than 'field validation' but
> algorithmic equivalence (or non-equivalence... where a+b != b+a)
> [Or would that be 'temporal significance'?]
>

That's more domain-specific. Once you've got sensible input, (for whatever
is your definition of "sensible"), do they map to the output you want?

In your example, the possible sets would presumably be "  " (nothing
happens), "a ", " a", "b ", " b", "ab", "ba", and perhaps multiple
occurrences of one event boiling down to a single event, (e.g. "bbba" =
"ba"). Then the problem becomes writing a test generator that is less
complex than the thing it's testing. (That way lies recursion.) Jigs
should not cost more than the product, unless they're going to get
re-used.

I think we're wandering off-topic a bit here; I was trying to determine
what sort of problems demand more complex structures and processes than
simple lists and basic logic and arithmetic operations, and how to order
the increasing demands.


From abram.hindle at softwareprocess.es  Thu Jun  7 14:03:02 2012
From: abram.hindle at softwareprocess.es (Abram Hindle)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 23:03:02 +0200
Subject: [tpm] UNS: Re:  Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <6f4172b167ea1758a890b0ac116ec7d8.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	(sfid-20120607_145611_050224_1C660808)
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<b84f9588b96eab15fea458356a3221f1.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hMY+YMyvc2yz_F6Ae_tpfUH5De57+TzbM3p3oGtVNJZpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<6f4172b167ea1758a890b0ac116ec7d8.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	(sfid-20120607_145611_050224_1C660808)
Message-ID: <4FD11706.4060407@softwareprocess.es>

On 12-06-07 10:54 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote:
>> But seriously, I'm talking about more than 'field validation' but
>> algorithmic equivalence (or non-equivalence... where a+b != b+a)
>> [Or would that be 'temporal significance'?]
>>
> That's more domain-specific. Once you've got sensible input, (for whatever
> is your definition of "sensible"), do they map to the output you want?
>
> In your example, the possible sets would presumably be "  " (nothing
> happens), "a ", " a", "b ", " b", "ab", "ba", and perhaps multiple
> occurrences of one event boiling down to a single event, (e.g. "bbba" =
> "ba"). Then the problem becomes writing a test generator that is less
> complex than the thing it's testing. (That way lies recursion.) Jigs
> should not cost more than the product, unless they're going to get
> re-used.
>
> I think we're wandering off-topic a bit here; I was trying to determine
> what sort of problems demand more complex structures and processes than
> simple lists and basic logic and arithmetic operations, and how to order
> the increasing demands.
I've got my own nuanced opinion about language complexity ;-)

http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/archive/2012/5/7

The result: natural language to be more complex than programming
languages :)

But that's not really a great answer to the ideas of complexity
expressed in this thread.

abram



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From arocker at Vex.Net  Thu Jun  7 16:29:42 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:29:42 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70824977248a8899f84891f80ca8fec.squirrel@mail.vex.net>
	<CAGuV3hOzoqMHnbnKJfF4m3psemSwaOxD9U=mpJzyQDRp7DvxZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ba87dd0e7e38cc4d30027713aa0e2006.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> In other words, most algorithms (once understood) are SMOP
> ('Simple Matter Of Programming')
>

The question is, what language features do those algorithms need for
economical expression? We could build everything from simple bit-flipping
operations, but wouldn't want to.

> To me, the next level up is dealing with concurrency, parallelism,
> and time-synchronism.

Good point. I'd forgotten "real-time", and of course that's a major part
of  operating systems. At the very least, that brings a need for queue
operations, where Perl's list-handling is powerful. Object-orientation
probably begins to be useful here, especially if the events are
complicated.

> After that you get into the domain-specific functions/algorithms
> which is a separate issue that may or may not have 'complexity'.
>
Mere obscurity, dependence on particular values, order of processing, or
length don't make an algorithm complex, it's more the degree of
abstraction, the types of operation to be performed and the number and
depth of relationships involved, I suspect.


From cj at enersave.ca  Thu Jun 14 09:32:03 2012
From: cj at enersave.ca (Chris Jones)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:32:03 -0400
Subject: [tpm] help with developing an open source program for Ontario
Message-ID: <20120614163206.C9FA82E8A83@xx1.develooper.com>

The new Ontario Building code has specified updated requirements for 
the energy performance of the building envelope.  Previously, the 
Ontario requirements aligned with ASHRAE 90.1 requirements and ASHRAE 
published a computer program to calculate the envelope performance 
based on some fairly simple inputs.  Because the Ontario requirements 
are now different, the software has the wrong performance 
metrics.  The calculation equations and all the coefficients are 
available in a text form.  I could develop and excel spreadsheet but 
naming all the coefficients would be a long process.

There are two paths to showing compliance with the Ontario building 
code - the prescriptive path and the system performance path.  The 
prescriptive path mandates that all envelope elements meet the 
minimum requirements.  The system performance method allows 
trade-offs.  Some building elements may be lower than the minimum but 
the calculations weigh these elements against elements that are 
better than minimum.

I estimate that about 25% of new building will pass using the 
prescriptive path.  The other 75% will either have to be designed 
differently to meet the minimum in those few locations where the 
trade-off method would allow them to pass.

This may not be a clear scope of work at the moment.  I would like to 
offer some financial support as obviously I will be making money from 
my consulting business using such a program.  On the other hand, I 
will make any program available to all practitioners in Ontario.

The simplest iteration would take a text input file and the perl 
program would spit out the analysis for that input file.

I have a PDF of the calculation methodology if anyone is interested.



 >>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Suite 1801, 1 Yonge Street
Toronto, ON M5E1W7
Tel. 416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005
email cj at enersave.ca


From shantanu at cpan.org  Thu Jun 14 20:06:12 2012
From: shantanu at cpan.org (Shantanu Bhadoria)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:06:12 +0800
Subject: [tpm] toronto-pm Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1339700423.32565.toronto-pm@pm.org>
References: <mailman.25.1339700423.32565.toronto-pm@pm.org>
Message-ID: <CACFkGkucTN6zx4j7ZPWJcPiMEf_akX_ES5eB+mjgHycgcB8e0g@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like fun, can I have a look at the file?
cheers,
-shan

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 3:00 AM, <toronto-pm-request at pm.org> wrote:

> Send toronto-pm mailing list submissions to
>        toronto-pm at pm.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        toronto-pm-request at pm.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        toronto-pm-owner at pm.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of toronto-pm digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. help with developing an open source program for Ontario
>      (Chris Jones)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:32:03 -0400
> From: Chris Jones <cj at enersave.ca>
> To: toronto-pm at pm.org
> Subject: [tpm] help with developing an open source program for Ontario
> Message-ID: <20120614163206.C9FA82E8A83 at xx1.develooper.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> The new Ontario Building code has specified updated requirements for
> the energy performance of the building envelope.  Previously, the
> Ontario requirements aligned with ASHRAE 90.1 requirements and ASHRAE
> published a computer program to calculate the envelope performance
> based on some fairly simple inputs.  Because the Ontario requirements
> are now different, the software has the wrong performance
> metrics.  The calculation equations and all the coefficients are
> available in a text form.  I could develop and excel spreadsheet but
> naming all the coefficients would be a long process.
>
> There are two paths to showing compliance with the Ontario building
> code - the prescriptive path and the system performance path.  The
> prescriptive path mandates that all envelope elements meet the
> minimum requirements.  The system performance method allows
> trade-offs.  Some building elements may be lower than the minimum but
> the calculations weigh these elements against elements that are
> better than minimum.
>
> I estimate that about 25% of new building will pass using the
> prescriptive path.  The other 75% will either have to be designed
> differently to meet the minimum in those few locations where the
> trade-off method would allow them to pass.
>
> This may not be a clear scope of work at the moment.  I would like to
> offer some financial support as obviously I will be making money from
> my consulting business using such a program.  On the other hand, I
> will make any program available to all practitioners in Ontario.
>
> The simplest iteration would take a text input file and the perl
> program would spit out the analysis for that input file.
>
> I have a PDF of the calculation methodology if anyone is interested.
>
>
>
>  >>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
> Suite 1801, 1 Yonge Street
> Toronto, ON M5E1W7
> Tel. 416-203-7465
> Fax. 416-946-1005
> email cj at enersave.ca
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>
> End of toronto-pm Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
> *****************************************
>
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From cj at enersave.ca  Fri Jun 15 06:17:43 2012
From: cj at enersave.ca (Chris Jones)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:17:43 -0400
Subject: [tpm] help with developing an open source program for  Ontario
In-Reply-To: <20120614163206.C9FA82E8A83@xx1.develooper.com>
References: <20120614163206.C9FA82E8A83@xx1.develooper.com>
Message-ID: <20120615131747.64E6B2E8A81@xx1.develooper.com>

Thanks to all who offered suggestions and help.

I have a volunteer from the Perl Mongers who also has an interest in 
the building energy/sustainable field.  We are going to brainstorm 
around the problem/solution.

The informal survey of suggestions points to a web based solution.  I 
believe this would reach the intended users much quicker than a 
command line based tool.

If anyone is interested, I can post the paper that details the 
calculation algorithm.  There is also an existing Windows program 
that performs the task.  The input fields would be the same, it is 
just the database of building characteristics that has to change for 
the Ontario Building Code.

The problem might lend itself to a Perl Mongers meeting - present the 
existing Windows program and see what better ideas come up.



At 12:32 PM 14/06/2012, Chris Jones wrote:
>The new Ontario Building code has specified updated requirements for 
>the energy performance of the building envelope.  Previously, the 
>Ontario requirements aligned with ASHRAE 90.1 requirements and 
>ASHRAE published a computer program to calculate the envelope 
>performance based on some fairly simple inputs.  Because the Ontario 
>requirements are now different, the software has the wrong 
>performance metrics.  The calculation equations and all the 
>coefficients are available in a text form.  I could develop and 
>excel spreadsheet but naming all the coefficients would be a long process.
>
>There are two paths to showing compliance with the Ontario building 
>code - the prescriptive path and the system performance path.  The 
>prescriptive path mandates that all envelope elements meet the 
>minimum requirements.  The system performance method allows 
>trade-offs.  Some building elements may be lower than the minimum 
>but the calculations weigh these elements against elements that are 
>better than minimum.
>
>I estimate that about 25% of new building will pass using the 
>prescriptive path.  The other 75% will either have to be designed 
>differently to meet the minimum in those few locations where the 
>trade-off method would allow them to pass.
>
>This may not be a clear scope of work at the moment.  I would like 
>to offer some financial support as obviously I will be making money 
>from my consulting business using such a program.  On the other 
>hand, I will make any program available to all practitioners in Ontario.
>
>The simplest iteration would take a text input file and the perl 
>program would spit out the analysis for that input file.
>
>I have a PDF of the calculation methodology if anyone is interested.
>
>
>
> >>
>Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
>Suite 1801, 1 Yonge Street
>Toronto, ON M5E1W7
>Tel. 416-203-7465
>Fax. 416-946-1005
>email cj at enersave.ca
>
>_______________________________________________
>toronto-pm mailing list
>toronto-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

 >>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Suite 1801, 1 Yonge Street
Toronto, ON M5E1W7
Tel. 416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005
email cj at enersave.ca


From arocker at Vex.Net  Fri Jun 15 07:44:54 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:44:54 -0400
Subject: [tpm] help with developing an open source program for  Ontario
In-Reply-To: <20120615131747.64E6B2E8A81@xx1.develooper.com>
References: <20120614163206.C9FA82E8A83@xx1.develooper.com>
	<20120615131747.64E6B2E8A81@xx1.develooper.com>
Message-ID: <1401b436dd8731acb332ba55b8d35973.squirrel@mail.vex.net>


> The informal survey of suggestions points to a web based solution.  I
> believe this would reach the intended users much quicker than a
> command line based tool.
>
Create a command-line program to do the calculations, and a Web page to
get the data, formulate a command-line, and display the results.
Obviously, there's going to be some linkage, (the interfaces), but that
decouples the complications as much as possible,


From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 15:32:21 2012
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:32:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Congrats to Jim Keenan for winning a White Camel
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just wanted to say congratulations to frequent to.pm visitor and organiser
surpeme, Jim Keenan on winning a White Camel.

http://www.perl.org/advocacy/white_camel/2012.html

Nice to hear you've gotten some formal recognition!

Now come give a White Camel Alumni celebratory talk. :)

And beer. We won't forget the beer.

D
--
dave.s.doyle at gmail.com<https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?view=cm&fs=1&tf=1&to=dave.s.doyle at gmail.com>
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From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 15:41:04 2012
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:41:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Congrats to Jim Keenan for winning a White Camel
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE9eCACadwGqPDE5pBm=YPNMoSvtN9CJZzuNQwsED3u9vA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 June 2012 18:32, Dave Doyle <dave.s.doyle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just wanted to say congratulations to frequent to.pm visitor and
> organiser surpeme, Jim Keenan on winning a White Camel.
>
> Organiser supreme even. :)
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From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 15:42:23 2012
From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:42:23 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Congrats to Jim Keenan for winning a White Camel
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE9eCACadwGqPDE5pBm=YPNMoSvtN9CJZzuNQwsED3u9vA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAyyWE9eCACadwGqPDE5pBm=YPNMoSvtN9CJZzuNQwsED3u9vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAyyWE-6H9-MBPJOgQv4iYDd-QZkRDsoQ9xL=3YEbr1EtNO+VA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 June 2012 18:41, Dave Doyle <dave.s.doyle at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Organiser supreme even. :)
>

Organizer even.

Cut me some slack.  I'm a new dad with very few braincells left for things
like spelling. :)
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From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 19:46:23 2012
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:46:23 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Congrats to Jim Keenan for winning a White Camel
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FAA292BD-FD27-47C0-AFFE-68919FA23000@gmail.com>


On 2012-06-18, at 6:32 PM, Dave Doyle wrote:

> Just wanted to say congratulations to frequent to.pm visitor and organiser surpeme, Jim Keenan on winning a White Camel.

Yes, congratulations Jim!  I must say that I had breakfast with Jim on the day of the announcement and if he knew anything about it, he certainly didn't let on.  :)

Olaf


--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 10:36:06 2012
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:36:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>

I have a mysteriously disappearing hash...

If I look at it (in advance) it contains stuff,
but if I just 'use' it, then its empty... Schrodinger's ghost?


I have the following fragment:

    ...
    #print "varbindTable num keys: ", scalar keys %varbindTable, "\n";
    while (($index, $object) = each %varbindTable) {
        ... do loopy stuff ...
    }

If I enable the print statement and run my code, the hash 'contains stuff'.
but if I comment it out, the while loop is skipped.

Huh?

(Of course there is a ton more code around this fragment
and 'no', I don't have a minimal repeatable example.)

Has anyone seen such a behavior?

TIA
Fulko
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From mike at stok.ca  Fri Jun 22 11:07:46 2012
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:07:46 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D3E4496-01D8-4DF3-9F09-B18A60C59695@stok.ca>

Have you been iterating over the hash before the keys in the print resets the iterator?  Maybe the iterator was all but done.

Mike

On 2012-06-22, at 1:36 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:

> I have a mysteriously disappearing hash...
> 
> If I look at it (in advance) it contains stuff,
> but if I just 'use' it, then its empty... Schrodinger's ghost?
> 
> 
> I have the following fragment:
> 
>     ...
>     #print "varbindTable num keys: ", scalar keys %varbindTable, "\n";
>     while (($index, $object) = each %varbindTable) {
>         ... do loopy stuff ...
>     }
> 
> If I enable the print statement and run my code, the hash 'contains stuff'.
> but if I comment it out, the while loop is skipped.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> (Of course there is a ton more code around this fragment
> and 'no', I don't have a minimal repeatable example.)
> 
> Has anyone seen such a behavior?
> 
> TIA
> Fulko
> 
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.




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From uri at stemsystems.com  Fri Jun 22 11:27:15 2012
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:27:15 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE4B903.1@stemsystems.com>

On 06/22/2012 01:36 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:
> I have a mysteriously disappearing hash...
>
> If I look at it (in advance) it contains stuff,
> but if I just 'use' it, then its empty... Schrodinger's ghost?
>
>
> I have the following fragment:
>
>     ...
>     #print "varbindTable num keys: ", scalar keys %varbindTable, "\n";
>     while (($index, $object) = each %varbindTable) {
>         ... do loopy stuff ...
>     }
>
> If I enable the print statement and run my code, the hash 'contains 
> stuff'.
> but if I comment it out, the while loop is skipped.
>
i feel this has something to do with the internal iterator of the hash. 
try calling keys again in void context as that will reset the iterator:

                 As a side effect, calling keys() resets the HASH's internal
                iterator (see "each").  In particular, calling keys() in 
void
                context resets the iterator with no other overhead.

somehow the first call to keys is iterating through and leaving it at 
the end of the hash (yes, end of found keys!). then the each call fails 
as you can see. a reset via keys should fix it. dunno why the scalar 
keys call leaves it in that state.

uri


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From indy at indigostar.com  Fri Jun 22 11:30:43 2012
From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:30:43 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA076432F66949C58C6CA7CFDB07A64B@indy>

I would just change the while loop to:
foreach (keys %hash) {
    $index = $_;
   $object = $hash{$index}
}

It doesn?t explain why your hash appears empty, but if the print work, then this code should work just as well.

A while on an array or hash is odd coding, unless you intend to change the array inside the loop ? but that is an odd thing to do too.

Indy Singh
IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com

From: Fulko Hew 
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:36 PM
To: TPM 
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?

I have a mysteriously disappearing hash...

If I look at it (in advance) it contains stuff,
but if I just 'use' it, then its empty... Schrodinger's ghost?


I have the following fragment:

    ...
    #print "varbindTable num keys: ", scalar keys %varbindTable, "\n";
    while (($index, $object) = each %varbindTable) {
        ... do loopy stuff ...
    }

If I enable the print statement and run my code, the hash 'contains stuff'.
but if I comment it out, the while loop is skipped.

Huh?

(Of course there is a ton more code around this fragment
and 'no', I don't have a minimal repeatable example.)

Has anyone seen such a behavior?

TIA
Fulko




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 11:32:14 2012
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:32:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <3D3E4496-01D8-4DF3-9F09-B18A60C59695@stok.ca>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3E4496-01D8-4DF3-9F09-B18A60C59695@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hPfqi4ygb6z2z3hYCW4+bP_UqoktNL5_LGinBiMydF_yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca> wrote:

> Have you been iterating over the hash before the keys in the print resets
> the iterator?  Maybe the iterator was all but done.
>

Enhancing Mikes sample code a little... this is probably whats really
happening.

I stand corrected/educated!
In hind sight, it sorta makes sense that the 'each' just gets the 'next'
thing, and it doesn't know (recognize) that it is inside a loop where
the programmer wanted to 'loop over everything'.

Unfortunately, this is probably something that will bite my behind
again in a few years (after I've forgotten this event).

<soapbox on>
Why don't languages/people make things 'intuitively safe'?
(or if they can't, then don't add features that come pre-loaded with
bullets.)
<soapbox off>

 #!/usr/bin/env perl

use strict;
use warnings;

my %h = (a => 'b', c => 'd');

while (my ($k, $v) = each %h) {
  print "$k => $v\n";
}

while (my ($k, $v) = each %h) {
  print "$k => $v\n";
}
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From Martin at Cleaver.org  Fri Jun 22 11:37:07 2012
From: Martin at Cleaver.org (Martin Cleaver)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:37:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <CAGuV3hPfqi4ygb6z2z3hYCW4+bP_UqoktNL5_LGinBiMydF_yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3E4496-01D8-4DF3-9F09-B18A60C59695@stok.ca>
	<CAGuV3hPfqi4ygb6z2z3hYCW4+bP_UqoktNL5_LGinBiMydF_yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+mzLJ_vRhB5EnhFnrGLEgZ-O2HpGQ9eoTfFGZfhpSe6u-NQTQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> <soapbox on>
> Why don't languages/people make things 'intuitively safe'?
> (or if they can't, then don't add features that come pre-loaded with
> bullets.)
> <soapbox off>
>
>
They do. They just didn't with Perl :P

M.
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Sat Jun 23 02:47:53 2012
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:47:53 +0300
Subject: [tpm] Schrodinger's hash ?
In-Reply-To: <FA076432F66949C58C6CA7CFDB07A64B@indy>
References: <CAGuV3hMqeYYaUriD93mUNehkyK-Y3ffuF90czToNdB1JD2kd3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<FA076432F66949C58C6CA7CFDB07A64B@indy>
Message-ID: <20120623124753.3d4a91d4@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hi Indy,

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:30:43 -0400
"Indy Singh" <indy at indigostar.com> wrote:

> I would just change the while loop to:
> foreach (keys %hash) {
>     $index = $_;
>    $object = $hash{$index}
> }

This code is non-idiomatic. I would write it as:

foreach my $key (keys %hash)
{
	my $object = $hash{$key};
	# Do something with $key and $object
}

See:

http://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/#assigning-from-dollar-underscore


> 
> It doesn?t explain why your hash appears empty, but if the print work, then this code should work just as well.
> 
> A while on an array or hash is odd coding, unless you intend to change the array inside the loop ? but that is an odd thing to do too.

Actually while (my ($k, $v) = each %hash) is idiomatic - just somewhat flaky.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> Indy Singh
> IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
"Humanity" - Parody of Modern Life - http://shlom.in/humanity

The KGB used to torture their victims by having them look at scrolling XSLT
code.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From jztam at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 25 09:10:59 2012
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] June Meeting presenters. Call for talks. YAPC?
In-Reply-To: <20120623124753.3d4a91d4@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Having been reminded that this IS the last week of the month...
Could we get volunteers to give a few talks for the rest of us who were not at YAPC?  Tips, Tricks, Traps, highlights, best story ever.  

IIRC, Alex, Olaf and Matt were in attendance.  Apologies if I missed any attendees... please self-nominate your talks.
Guessing each speaker would want 10-15 mins.  

TIA
/jordan

From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 11:01:24 2012
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:01:24 -0400
Subject: [tpm] June Meeting presenters. Call for talks. YAPC?
In-Reply-To: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ADD304A7-86FF-4AF1-A24B-8168D34D6E18@gmail.com>


On 2012-06-25, at 12:10 PM, J Z Tam wrote:

> Having been reminded that this IS the last week of the month...
> Could we get volunteers to give a few talks for the rest of us who were not at YAPC?  Tips, Tricks, Traps, highlights, best story ever.  
> 
> IIRC, Alex, Olaf and Matt were in attendance.

Indeed, I was at YAPC, but I will actually be out of town on Thursday evening.  :(

>  Apologies if I missed any attendees... please self-nominate your talks.
> Guessing each speaker would want 10-15 mins.  

I should probably add that Mark Jubenville and Adam Prime were also at YAPC and might make for willing presenters!

Olaf


--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From ioncache at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 11:20:11 2012
From: ioncache at gmail.com (Mark Jubenville)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:20:11 -0400
Subject: [tpm] June Meeting presenters. Call for talks. YAPC?
In-Reply-To: <ADD304A7-86FF-4AF1-A24B-8168D34D6E18@gmail.com>
References: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<ADD304A7-86FF-4AF1-A24B-8168D34D6E18@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8ABDB.9040406@gmail.com>

Yes I was at YAPC as well, but I can't make it out tomorrow night.

Maybe next month I can do something instead if no one else has covered 
all the good talks =)

On 12-06-25 02:01 PM, Olaf Alders wrote:
> On 2012-06-25, at 12:10 PM, J Z Tam wrote:
>
>> Having been reminded that this IS the last week of the month...
>> Could we get volunteers to give a few talks for the rest of us who were not at YAPC?  Tips, Tricks, Traps, highlights, best story ever.
>>
>> IIRC, Alex, Olaf and Matt were in attendance.
> Indeed, I was at YAPC, but I will actually be out of town on Thursday evening.  :(
>
>>   Apologies if I missed any attendees... please self-nominate your talks.
>> Guessing each speaker would want 10-15 mins.
> I should probably add that Mark Jubenville and Adam Prime were also at YAPC and might make for willing presenters!
>
> Olaf
>
>
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf.alders at gmail.com
>
> http://www.wundercounter.com
> http://twitter.com/wundercounter
>
> 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
> 416 944 8306 (direct)
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mark Jubenville | ioncache at gmail.com




From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Mon Jun 25 11:39:23 2012
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:39:23 +0300
Subject: [tpm] June Meeting presenters. Call for talks. YAPC?
In-Reply-To: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <20120623124753.3d4a91d4@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120625213923.52fc8828@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hi Jordan,

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
J Z Tam <jztam at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Having been reminded that this IS the last week of the month...
> Could we get volunteers to give a few talks for the rest of us who were not at YAPC?  Tips, Tricks, Traps, highlights, best story ever.  
> 
> IIRC, Alex, Olaf and Matt were in attendance.  Apologies if I missed any attendees... please self-nominate your talks.
> Guessing each speaker would want 10-15 mins.  
> 

Just a small E-mail netiquette note: when making a new post to a mailing list,
please don't reply to an existing message, and replace the subject and the
body with new ones. That's because threaded mailers will display it as part of
the thread of the existing message, and in this case, you've also hit
reply-to-all and Indy Singh and I received a copy of the message.

Instead, compose a new message to the mailing list?s address, which in this
case is toronto-pm at pm.org .

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
My Aphorisms - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html

No self?respecting tomboy would use Mandriva.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Mon Jun 25 12:11:10 2012
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:11:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] June Meeting presenters. Call for talks. YAPC?
In-Reply-To: <4FE8ABDB.9040406@gmail.com>
References: <1340640659.55088.YahooMailClassic@web125701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<ADD304A7-86FF-4AF1-A24B-8168D34D6E18@gmail.com>
	<4FE8ABDB.9040406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8B7CE.70801@utoronto.ca>

On 12-06-25 02:20 PM, Mark Jubenville wrote:
> Yes I was at YAPC as well, but I can't make it out tomorrow night.
>
> Maybe next month I can do something instead if no one else has covered
> all the good talks =)
>

I can't make it on Thursday either, though that's not likely a surprise 
since it's been like a year since I actually made it out.

Adam


From jkeen at verizon.net  Mon Jun 25 15:34:21 2012
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:34:21 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Congrats to Jim Keenan for winning a White Camel
In-Reply-To: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyyWE-CY+8qKL5Or98OA_xHYH8wJVgiBqF-cZrJy8+cb4cjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8E76D.7040607@verizon.net>

On 6/18/12 6:32 PM, Dave Doyle wrote:
> Just wanted to say congratulations to frequent to.pm <http://to.pm>
> visitor and organiser surpeme, Jim Keenan on winning a White Camel.
>
> http://www.perl.org/advocacy/white_camel/2012.html
>
> Nice to hear you've gotten some formal recognition!
>
> Now come give a White Camel Alumni celebratory talk. :)
>
> And beer. We won't forget the beer.
>

Thanks very much to Dave, Mike, Olaf and all the Torontonians who sent 
me congratulations on the Chameau Blanc!

And I might add that having long-running local Perlmonger chapters like 
tpm make contributing to the community fun!

Jim Keenan

From jztam at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:30:20 2012
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
Message-ID: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Dear mongeren, 
All the responses from the YPAC-goers state their intentions to be absent this Thursday. IOW, the YPAC-revisited night is not this Thursday...perhaps July.

1. Could we crowdsource any other topics/speakers? please.
2. We'll set the deadline for a group decision at Wednesday 12:01pm aka Noontime, based upon replies.

Thanks in advance for speakers, and comments.
/jordan

From olaf.alders at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 21:14:07 2012
From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:14:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
In-Reply-To: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4508EA57-EDA6-4A8A-90D4-B80B507E6D25@gmail.com>


On 2012-06-26, at 4:30 PM, J Z Tam wrote:

> Dear mongeren, 
> All the responses from the YPAC-goers state their intentions to be absent this Thursday. IOW, the YPAC-revisited night is not this Thursday...perhaps July.

Sort of on this topic, I wanted to thank everyone who gave me feedback on my talk last month.  I took it all into account and ended reworking my slides start to finish.  I think it was a much better talk for it and I'm quite happy that I was able to demo it before taking it to YAPC.

Olaf


--
Olaf Alders
olaf.alders at gmail.com

http://www.wundercounter.com
http://twitter.com/wundercounter

866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America)
416 944 8306 (direct)


From mike at stok.ca  Wed Jun 27 05:10:48 2012
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:10:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
In-Reply-To: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6B3AAA6C-A620-483D-94D7-56C449F36F7F@stok.ca>

I could do a few (15 .. 30) minutes on the latest things I'm trying to do to improve the OO design of things I write.  (Mainly due to Sandi Metz and her Smalltalk / Ruby experience, but the principles are applicable to developing OO programs in Perl).  The caveat is that you all might be tired of me, and I only have this evening to prepare!

I'd like to put the idea up for consideration that we could have a scheduled series of quick (10 .. 15 min) presentations scheduled well in advance on "interesting" technologies.  For example there are a couple of books http://pragprog.com/book/rwdata/seven-databases-in-seven-weeks and http://pragprog.com/book/btlang/seven-languages-in-seven-weeks where we could compare and contrast the languages with Perl.  If you take out winter socials, lightning talks, things like YAPC debriefs then that would give us a good year and a half of supplementary talks.

Mike

On 2012-06-26, at 4:30 PM, J Z Tam wrote:

> Dear mongeren, 
> All the responses from the YPAC-goers state their intentions to be absent this Thursday. IOW, the YPAC-revisited night is not this Thursday...perhaps July.
> 
> 1. Could we crowdsource any other topics/speakers? please.
> 2. We'll set the deadline for a group decision at Wednesday 12:01pm aka Noontime, based upon replies.
> 
> Thanks in advance for speakers, and comments.
> /jordan
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.





From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 05:22:34 2012
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:22:34 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
In-Reply-To: <6B3AAA6C-A620-483D-94D7-56C449F36F7F@stok.ca>
References: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<6B3AAA6C-A620-483D-94D7-56C449F36F7F@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGuV3hN9MmGcPgs1YbvuLOcSPqKaroaFSYCvY6eFDSq7Eyhxvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca> wrote:


> I'd like to put the idea up for consideration that we could have a
> scheduled series of quick (10 .. 15 min) presentations scheduled well in
> advance on "interesting" technologies.  For example there are a couple of
> books http://pragprog.com/book/rwdata/seven-databases-in-seven-weeks and
> http://pragprog.com/book/btlang/seven-languages-in-seven-weeks where we
> could compare and contrast the languages with Perl.  If you take out winter
> socials, lightning talks, things like YAPC debriefs then that would give us
> a good year and a half of supplementary talks.
>

I actually started reading 'seven languages' !

... But I only started... that was weeks ago... forgotten everything...
need to start again.
... not prepared to present on anything... except forgetfulness.
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From arocker at Vex.Net  Wed Jun 27 07:10:52 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:10:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
In-Reply-To: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340742620.94747.YahooMailClassic@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e0f63a6ab23c41f66d53bc501e76c46.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

>
> 1. Could we crowdsource any other topics/speakers? please.

If anybody's on the perl 6 mailing list, they may have seen my note "The
trouble with awesome".

I was trying to get a discussion going on how to present the features of a
language in a logical sequence, to minimise the "I'll explain it in a
minute, but for now you'll just have to assume..." problem of teaching
something complicated.

If people are willing to put up with a discussion that may not reach any
conclusions, I'd be happy to explain what I believe to be the issues, and
welcome any input. It's definitely an RFC rather than a presentation.


From jztam at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 27 08:53:52 2012
From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
In-Reply-To: <6B3AAA6C-A620-483D-94D7-56C449F36F7F@stok.ca>
Message-ID: <1340812432.68880.YahooMailClassic@web125705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

@Alan, @Mike @Fulko,
   I'm Really interested in those topics, how about having INformal chats about progression, OO_design, and SevenLanguages respectively.  No formal slides are required, just sit and chat in a circle if that makes preparations easier.  Think of tommorrow as  a discovery session on what could become a future talk.

Tommorrow is confirmed "ON".  Thanks to all.

/jordan

--- On Wed, 6/27/12, Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca> wrote:

> From: Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
> Subject: Re: [tpm] Request for June 28th topics.
> To: "J Z Tam" <jztam at yahoo.com>
> Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org
> Received: Wednesday, June 27, 2012, 8:10 AM
> I could do a few (15 .. 30) minutes
> on the latest things I'm trying to do to improve the OO
> design of things I write.? (Mainly due to Sandi Metz
> and her Smalltalk / Ruby experience, but the principles are
> applicable to developing OO programs in Perl).? The
> caveat is that you all might be tired of me, and I only have
> this evening to prepare!
> 
> I'd like to put the idea up for consideration that we could
> have a scheduled series of quick (10 .. 15 min)
> presentations scheduled well in advance on "interesting"
> technologies.? For example there are a couple of books
> http://pragprog.com/book/rwdata/seven-databases-in-seven-weeks
> and http://pragprog.com/book/btlang/seven-languages-in-seven-weeks
> where we could compare and contrast the languages with
> Perl.? If you take out winter socials, lightning talks,
> things like YAPC debriefs then that would give us a good
> year and a half of supplementary talks.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 2012-06-26, at 4:30 PM, J Z Tam wrote:
> 
> > Dear mongeren, 
> > All the responses from the YPAC-goers state their
> intentions to be absent this Thursday. IOW, the
> YPAC-revisited night is not this Thursday...perhaps July.
> > 
> > 1. Could we crowdsource any other topics/speakers?
> please.
> > 2. We'll set the deadline for a group decision at
> Wednesday 12:01pm aka Noontime, based upon replies.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for speakers, and comments.
> > /jordan
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> 
> -- 
> 
> Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
> http://www.stok.ca/~mike/
> 
> The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From arocker at Vex.Net  Sat Jun 30 11:09:55 2012
From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 14:09:55 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Complexity and language
Message-ID: <ea1a92a1c2f1c8ff90ef227ab9bf2d05.squirrel@mail.vex.net>

Thanks to the audience on Thursday for helping me with the subject.

If you weren't there, we were trying to come up with an orderly taxonomy
of complexity in software development, to match the sophistication of
language features appropriately to the problem. Solutions should not be
more complex than the problems they attempt to address.

Assembly languages are quite easy to learn, because there's not much to
them. On the other hand, doing anything useful with them is hard work.
(Anything computable is theoretically computable with a Turing machine,
but generally you wouldn't want to do it.) Richer languages are harder to
learn, because there's more to them. Perl 6 is so insanely rich that most
people won't ever need to learn its full depth.

A tentative ranking of system complexity, (from simplest to most), was:

Toy problems
Simple computer management (job control)
Basic text  generation to simple Web output
Data processing (listing and summing input)
Text processing
Systems programming (compilers & operating systems

If anybody has reasoned views on this, I'd be happy to hear them.