From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:06:45 2012 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 11:06:45 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social Message-ID: Hi all, This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than happy to head there again. Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal scheduling. Opinions? D -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam.prime at utoronto.ca Wed Dec 5 08:19:08 2012 From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> I like c'est what. i think the 27th would work fine, but the 13th or 20th could also likely work. Adam On 12-12-05 11:06 AM, Dave Doyle wrote: > Hi all, > > This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means > it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? > > Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great > beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than > happy to head there again. > > Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved > the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal > scheduling. > > Opinions? > > D > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > From ioncache at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:59:33 2012 From: ioncache at gmail.com (Mark Jubenville) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:59:33 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> References: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <50BF7D75.1000608@gmail.com> C'est What will always be more than amenable to me. I was there last night in fact. 20th or 27th probably works best for me. On 12-12-05 11:19 AM, Adam Prime wrote: > I like c'est what. i think the 27th would work fine, but the 13th or > 20th could also likely work. > > Adam > > On 12-12-05 11:06 AM, Dave Doyle wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means >> it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? >> >> Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great >> beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than >> happy to head there again. >> >> Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved >> the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal >> scheduling. >> >> Opinions? >> >> D >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -- Mark Jubenville | ioncache at gmail.com From mattp at cpan.org Wed Dec 5 09:03:11 2012 From: mattp at cpan.org (Matthew Phillips) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:03:11 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <50BF7D75.1000608@gmail.com> References: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> <50BF7D75.1000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can probably swing the 20th, but definitely not the 27th. Not sure how many other people are out of town in/around christmas? Cheers, Matt On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Mark Jubenville wrote: > C'est What will always be more than amenable to me. I was there last night > in fact. 20th or 27th probably works best for me. > > > On 12-12-05 11:19 AM, Adam Prime wrote: > >> I like c'est what. i think the 27th would work fine, but the 13th or >> 20th could also likely work. >> >> Adam >> >> On 12-12-05 11:06 AM, Dave Doyle wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means >>> it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? >>> >>> Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great >>> beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than >>> happy to head there again. >>> >>> Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved >>> the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal >>> scheduling. >>> >>> Opinions? >>> >>> D >>> -- >>> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >>> >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> toronto-pm mailing list >>> toronto-pm at pm.org >>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm >>> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm >> > > -- > > Mark Jubenville | ioncache at gmail.com > > > ______________________________**_________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From legrady at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 10:36:41 2012 From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:36:41 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: References: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> <50BF7D75.1000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: 28th is my birthday, I don't mind preparing by imbibing some good beer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Mon Dec 10 06:28:19 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:28:19 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Social settled? Message-ID: <7ac50144bcb2df093c371e7390514953.squirrel@mail.vex.net> There was a brief flurry of discussion about the space/time coordinates of the December meeting. Did it reach a consensus? From talexb at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 07:42:54 2012 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:42:54 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: References: <50BF73FC.6020502@utoronto.ca> <50BF7D75.1000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm out of town over Christmas, but I'll be back on the 27th, so that works for me. C'est What is a fun place -- sounds good! On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Tom Legrady wrote: > 28th is my birthday, I don't mind preparing by imbibing some good beer > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 07:46:47 2012 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:46:47 -0500 Subject: [tpm] [torontoruby] GitHub Toronto Drinkup Message-ID: Of interest, a fellow from GitHub is in town and there will be a drinkup tomorrow. I'm betting a lot of the attendees will be Ruby on Rails Pub nite crew, who are a very interesting and motivated bunch. Good to get our of our holes once in a while and see what the other half is doing. :) The Rhino (Dufferin and Queen W) also has an exceptional beer selection. Hope to see some of you there. -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kevin Faustino Date: 11 December 2012 14:22 Subject: [torontoruby] GitHub Toronto Drinkup To: torontoruby-announce at meetup.com Hey everyone, John Britton from GitHub has asked me to let you know that GitHub is hosting a Toronto Drinkup this Thursday at The Rhino. It is sure to be a great event, and its a chance to meet fellow developers from around the city. https://github.com/blog/1353-toronto-drinkup Hope to see you there, Kevin Faustino -- This message was sent by Kevin Faustino (kevin.faustino at gmail.com) from Toronto Ruby Brigade . To learn more about Kevin Faustino, visit his/her member profile To unsubscribe from Organizer broadcasts, click here Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York 10163-4668<#13b8b6aab752ac31_>| support at meetup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From legrady at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 16:13:19 2012 From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 19:13:19 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Looking for contracts or position Message-ID: The contract I'm on is changing directions and I don't see a place there any longer. Beginning in the new year, I'm available for contract work or a long term position. My primary experience is with back-room programs. For the past eight years I have worked in a financial environment with ETL (extract-transform-load) scripts to load data files into databases, focusing on huge data volumes, speed, reliability, maintainability. Previous work has involved both business and science/engineering domains. I'm not totally unfamiliar with web technologies---12 years ago I introduced CGI and HTML template at a company which relied on Perl 4-ish cgi.pl and print statements. But while I have some familiarity with HTML5, JavaScript and CSS, it's not my main focus. I've got my resume online at http://tomlegrady.com/resume/resume.pdf. Please contact me if you are aware of any opportunities in or near Toronto. Thanks Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Sun Dec 16 09:35:20 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 12:35:20 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Some deep thought about design and purpose Message-ID: <85d42239737957d557e0626323c79124.squirrel@mail.vex.net> http://vimeo.com/36579366 Some seriously deep thought here. It has applications well beyond computing. The C code shown is basically nice, but real code should never contain numeric constants, other than 0, 1, (and perhaps 2 in the case of the binary search). It's a pity that all that principled activism has mostly made the world safe for kitty videos. From talexb at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 04:21:13 2012 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:21:13 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. Message-ID: Good day, Perlmongers, A friend of mine who's a successful businessman approached me recently with an idea for a web site. He didn't say it was going to be the next Facebook, but he did mention that the concept drew on ideas from a few popular web sites, and that it would have elements of each of them. He's looking for someone to either do the work (labourer-for-hire) or to partner with him and build the web-site for sweat equity. We discussed the construction of a web application (web pages, business logic, data store), and I explained you probably need either a generalist working by themselves, or an architect to design it, and a project manager who would hire the various specialists and co-ordinate the work. The problem, of course, is doing that much work on spec. I'd be interested in hearing your views. Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Tue Dec 18 06:21:36 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:21:36 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A friend of mine who's a successful businessman approached me recently > with an idea for a web site. How much effort do you think would be required to produce a plausible facade of the basic features? Something to show to potential punters to gauge their reaction. (On a scale of "Yuck, yawn, hmm, tell me more, Gimme!"). From olaf.alders at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 06:25:46 2012 From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:25:46 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68E62C98-F932-4610-9137-C2F707B8C62C@gmail.com> On 2012-12-18, at 7:21 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Good day, Perlmongers, > > A friend of mine who's a successful businessman approached me recently with an idea for a web site. He didn't say it was going to be the next Facebook, but he did mention that the concept drew on ideas from a few popular web sites, and that it would have elements of each of them. He's looking for someone to either do the work (labourer-for-hire) or to partner with him and build the web-site for sweat equity. > > We discussed the construction of a web application (web pages, business logic, data store), and I explained you probably need either a generalist working by themselves, or an architect to design it, and a project manager who would hire the various specialists and co-ordinate the work. The problem, of course, is doing that much work on spec. > > I'd be interested in hearing your views. I think spec work is almost always a bad idea. You really need to have everybody invested in the product and money is a great way to do that. The people who build the product invest their time. The people who aren't putting the time put in the money to pay the people who are. If you don't value your time with a dollar amount, your business partner won't either and the outcome will be predictable. However, I think some hybrid approach could work where you take some % of your pay in dollars and the rest in equity, but working just for equity is not a recipe for success. I have gone into business with friends 100% on spec in the past and it did end up paying out quite well once the product got up and running, but that's likely the exception rather than the norm. Knowing what I know now, I certainly wouldn't do it again. Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf.alders at gmail.com http://www.wundercounter.com http://twitter.com/wundercounter 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America) 416 944 8306 (direct) From stuart at morungos.com Tue Dec 18 06:48:44 2012 From: stuart at morungos.com (Stuart Watt) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85DBD272-B80F-4F69-82D7-8A49BE381398@morungos.com> Good question, Alex. Like Olaf, I've avoided this, but for me too it's also resulted in a a few successes, mostly with friends who would participate equally-ish (not necessarily as coders, but e.g., as UX and content providers), and share the contribution. That's probably the safest bet for work on spec, as without that, the sunk costs are very unequal. Anyway, here are a few things I'd be keen to know. 1. What are you trying build? Is this a prototype, good enough to get funding? Or is it intended to be a scalable system? How many users do they expect this version to handle, before the whole thing is re-engineered. Which it will be, several times. The reason I ask is that a lot of early design decisions, not least whether a standard-ish SQL server will suffice, depend entirely on this. That defines a lot of coding decisions. Also, if they want a complete system in spec, you're essentially sunk. They are always fifty times more effort than you would think, most of which is support, admin, deployment, and so on. 2. What's the external integration? On one large-scale site I developed, we spent longer integrating with Paypal automated payments that we did on almost the whole of the rest of the system. If this is needed from day one, you need to know about it. Mostly so you can walk away if you're the only one contributing risk, but dividing the return. 3. Who is doing user experience design and/or visual design? Anybody? If you have a very good generalist, you might stand a chance, but without it, you probably need to plan early acceptance testing. That is a useful purpose behind a mockup. 4. What is the business plan? If the plan is "doing in Instagram", i.e., get a bunch of users with no revenue model and intend to sell out as soon as you get a decent offer, I'd walk away. Too much risk. If there really is a revenue model, you stand a chance of getting better people on board, and the risk is much less. 5. If it all goes belly-up (fails to achieve an acceptable funding system), who gets the code. (Sounds awkward, but I've seen more serious disputes over code than anything else in my career). In effect, if it's wire framing something up, it could be good. I've done it. It usually doesn't take more than a few days, so the sunk cost is not so high, and I usually ensure that I try something new so that I learn something in the process. In effect, I make it "self-training time" as well. If they're after a full site from the get go, you need funding. But the first can lead to the second, and it is possible to build long-lasting and successful collaborations this way. All the best Stuart On 2012-12-18, at 7:21 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Good day, Perlmongers, > > A friend of mine who's a successful businessman approached me recently with an idea for a web site. He didn't say it was going to be the next Facebook, but he did mention that the concept drew on ideas from a few popular web sites, and that it would have elements of each of them. He's looking for someone to either do the work (labourer-for-hire) or to partner with him and build the web-site for sweat equity. > > We discussed the construction of a web application (web pages, business logic, data store), and I explained you probably need either a generalist working by themselves, or an architect to design it, and a project manager who would hire the various specialists and co-ordinate the work. The problem, of course, is doing that much work on spec. > > I'd be interested in hearing your views. > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm From talexb at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 07:47:19 2012 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:47:19 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: <85DBD272-B80F-4F69-82D7-8A49BE381398@morungos.com> References: <85DBD272-B80F-4F69-82D7-8A49BE381398@morungos.com> Message-ID: Interesting answers all, thank you. I'm going to think some more about this. I feel quite competent (assuming I have the time) to come up with an API and a database schema to address this application -- but I'd rather have someone else deal with the outter skin, whether that's the web application (which I could manage) or the actual HTML/CSS (which I could also do, but then again, I'm a left-brained guy, and my web page design reflects that). In fact, I have a smaller project that I've been contemplating for a few months, and I may go ahead and start work on that and see how it turns out. If I manage OK, then plunging into this larger project might be a worthwhile venture. Looking forward to seeing some of you at the Christmas event! Cheers, Alex On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Stuart Watt wrote: > Good question, Alex. Like Olaf, I've avoided this, but for me too it's > also resulted in a a few successes, mostly with friends who would > participate equally-ish (not necessarily as coders, but e.g., as UX and > content providers), and share the contribution. That's probably the safest > bet for work on spec, as without that, the sunk costs are very unequal. > Anyway, here are a few things I'd be keen to know. > > 1. What are you trying build? Is this a prototype, good enough to get > funding? Or is it intended to be a scalable system? How many users do they > expect this version to handle, before the whole thing is re-engineered. > Which it will be, several times. The reason I ask is that a lot of early > design decisions, not least whether a standard-ish SQL server will suffice, > depend entirely on this. That defines a lot of coding decisions. Also, if > they want a complete system in spec, you're essentially sunk. They are > always fifty times more effort than you would think, most of which is > support, admin, deployment, and so on. > > 2. What's the external integration? On one large-scale site I developed, > we spent longer integrating with Paypal automated payments that we did on > almost the whole of the rest of the system. If this is needed from day one, > you need to know about it. Mostly so you can walk away if you're the only > one contributing risk, but dividing the return. > > 3. Who is doing user experience design and/or visual design? Anybody? If > you have a very good generalist, you might stand a chance, but without it, > you probably need to plan early acceptance testing. That is a useful > purpose behind a mockup. > > 4. What is the business plan? If the plan is "doing in Instagram", i.e., > get a bunch of users with no revenue model and intend to sell out as soon > as you get a decent offer, I'd walk away. Too much risk. If there really is > a revenue model, you stand a chance of getting better people on board, and > the risk is much less. > > 5. If it all goes belly-up (fails to achieve an acceptable funding > system), who gets the code. (Sounds awkward, but I've seen more serious > disputes over code than anything else in my career). > > In effect, if it's wire framing something up, it could be good. I've done > it. It usually doesn't take more than a few days, so the sunk cost is not > so high, and I usually ensure that I try something new so that I learn > something in the process. In effect, I make it "self-training time" as > well. If they're after a full site from the get go, you need funding. But > the first can lead to the second, and it is possible to build long-lasting > and successful collaborations this way. > > All the best > Stuart > > > > On 2012-12-18, at 7:21 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > > > Good day, Perlmongers, > > > > A friend of mine who's a successful businessman approached me recently > with an idea for a web site. He didn't say it was going to be the next > Facebook, but he did mention that the concept drew on ideas from a few > popular web sites, and that it would have elements of each of them. He's > looking for someone to either do the work (labourer-for-hire) or to partner > with him and build the web-site for sweat equity. > > > > We discussed the construction of a web application (web pages, business > logic, data store), and I explained you probably need either a generalist > working by themselves, or an architect to design it, and a project manager > who would hire the various specialists and co-ordinate the work. The > problem, of course, is doing that much work on spec. > > > > I'd be interested in hearing your views. > > > > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > > toronto-pm mailing list > > toronto-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Tue Dec 18 08:26:26 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:26:26 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: References: <85DBD272-B80F-4F69-82D7-8A49BE381398@morungos.com> Message-ID: <5f152c8493abcd07752385d01ddd72fb.squirrel@mail.vex.net> > application -- but I'd rather have someone else deal with the outter skin, > whether that's the web application (which I could manage) or the actual > HTML/CSS (which I could also do, but then again, I'm a left-brained guy, > and my web page design reflects that). > Assuming that the application is something worthwhile (to the prospective users), and whatever underlying data structures and process paths are coded reasonably, the UI is likely to be the key to the project's success or failure. It's also the one bit the suits (think they) understand, and will be tempted to "contribute". That's why I'd prefer to have a defined API between it and anything I do. (My tolerance for revisions has boundaries...) In fact, it's necessary to build flexibility into the design, so that it can evolve with experience. Abigail's talk at YAPC (2010?) about Booking.com's experience with site design, (even though it was nominally about the limitations of Scrum), was interesting. From stuart at morungos.com Tue Dec 18 08:54:02 2012 From: stuart at morungos.com (Stuart Watt) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:54:02 -0500 Subject: [tpm] So I've got an idea for a web site .. In-Reply-To: References: <85DBD272-B80F-4F69-82D7-8A49BE381398@morungos.com> Message-ID: My nutshell advice for UX -- feel free to ignore. 1. Visually, you won't go very far wrong using Bootstrap as a base theme. It looks OK, is up and running fast, and is fairly easy to customize later. You also get into some good habits for HTML and CSS. 2. Don't let a graphic artist control user interface design. They can do conceptual work early (this can be inspiring) and refine the visual side as you go, but they aren't users, and left in control of UX, they have a habit of producing stuff that is pretty in parts, and unusable in others. 2. If you plan to code more than about two pages, draw mockups by hand (or if you are feeling advanced and have time to spare, use a tool like Balsamiq, even Powerpoint). Then use a cognitive walkthrough, e.g.: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/thusu/opinnot/kaytarv/artikkelit/p235-lewis.pdf. The form in this paper is a great tool for thinking through each step. This is a great usability tool, in that it helps you think your way into a user's point of view, without needing to actually be a user. I've trained folks on this method, and I've found it one of the fastest and easiest for developers to use, as it helps them start to see what a system is like from someone else's point of view, and generates a lot of useful feedback in a short time. --S -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Wed Dec 19 07:56:47 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:56:47 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Perl's 25th birthday recognised Message-ID: <7afdfe2d3d30127185fcdd9b3ea4209d.squirrel@mail.vex.net> (It was yesterday.) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/19/perl_25th_birthday/ From arocker at Vex.Net Fri Dec 21 10:53:49 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:53:49 -0500 Subject: [tpm] This may sound familiar Message-ID: <2efd4e68e5e04c3a65ceab268004091b.squirrel@mail.vex.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ I'm surprised he didn't refer to "The Daily Wtf", to illustrate the evil that lurks in the hearts of computer programs. From arocker at Vex.Net Mon Dec 24 10:38:00 2012 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:38:00 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Miscellaneous questions Message-ID: Just confirming that this month's "meeting" is at C'Est What?, 19:00 until whenever? Do we have a topic/speaker for January? Did you know that Perl has a coat of arms? http://www.houseofnames.com/perl-coat-of-arms From jztam at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:35:59 2012 From: jztam at yahoo.com (J Z Tam) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. Tanks in advance. /jordan --- On Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle wrote: From: Dave Doyle Subject: [tpm] December Social To: "tpm" Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM Hi all, This was mentioned at the meeting last week. ?It's December, which means it's time for the Social. ?Anyone have opinions on location, when? Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. ?Great beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. ?I'd be more than happy to head there again.? Normal meeting day would be December 27th. ?In the past, we have moved the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal scheduling. Opinions? D --dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From legrady at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 16:51:21 2012 From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:51:21 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Fwd: December Social In-Reply-To: References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom Legrady Date: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [tpm] December Social To: J Z Tam airplanes and ships, but no tanks See you tomorrow, 7pm Tom On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to > book a portion of C'Est What real estate. > Tanks in advance. > /jordan > > --- On *Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle * wrote: > > > From: Dave Doyle > Subject: [tpm] December Social > To: "tpm" > Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM > > > Hi all, > > This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means > it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? > > Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great > beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than happy > to head there again. > > Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved the > date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal > scheduling. > > Opinions? > > D > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 17:03:28 2012 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:03:28 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Fwd: December Social In-Reply-To: References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Coming! -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com On 26 December 2012 19:51, Tom Legrady wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Tom Legrady > Date: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [tpm] December Social > To: J Z Tam > > > airplanes and ships, but no tanks > > See you tomorrow, 7pm > > Tom > > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > >> Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need >> to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. >> Tanks in advance. >> /jordan >> >> --- On *Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle * wrote: >> >> >> From: Dave Doyle >> Subject: [tpm] December Social >> To: "tpm" >> Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means >> it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? >> >> Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great >> beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than happy >> to head there again. >> >> Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved >> the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal >> scheduling. >> >> Opinions? >> >> D >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:10:18 2012 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 23:10:18 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'll be there! Looking forward to it. :) Alex On 12/26/12, J Z Tam wrote: > Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to > book a portion of C'Est What real estate. > Tanks in advance. > /jordan > > --- On Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle wrote: > > From: Dave Doyle > Subject: [tpm] December Social > To: "tpm" > Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM > > Hi all, > This was mentioned at the meeting last week. ?It's December, which means > it's time for the Social. ?Anyone have opinions on location, when? > Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. ?Great beer > (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. ?I'd be more than happy to > head there again. > > Normal meeting day would be December 27th. ?In the past, we have moved the > date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal > scheduling. > Opinions? > > D > --dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > -- Sent from my mobile device Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From william.muriithi at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:15:53 2012 From: william.muriithi at gmail.com (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 23:15:53 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Fwd: December Social In-Reply-To: References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Coming in too On Dec 26, 2012 7:51 PM, "Tom Legrady" wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Tom Legrady > Date: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [tpm] December Social > To: J Z Tam > > > airplanes and ships, but no tanks > > See you tomorrow, 7pm > > Tom > > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > >> Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need >> to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. >> Tanks in advance. >> /jordan >> >> --- On *Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle * wrote: >> >> >> From: Dave Doyle >> Subject: [tpm] December Social >> To: "tpm" >> Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means >> it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? >> >> Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great >> beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than happy >> to head there again. >> >> Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved >> the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal >> scheduling. >> >> Opinions? >> >> D >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at stok.ca Thu Dec 27 07:58:51 2012 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:58:51 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm planning on coming. Mike On 2012-12-26, at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > > Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. > Tanks in advance. > /jordan > > --- On Wed, 12/5/12, Dave Doyle wrote: > > From: Dave Doyle > Subject: [tpm] December Social > To: "tpm" > Received: Wednesday, December 5, 2012, 11:06 AM > > Hi all, > > This was mentioned at the meeting last week. It's December, which means it's time for the Social. Anyone have opinions on location, when? > > Last year it was at C'est What, which was pretty awesome for me. Great beer (Imperial Stout ftw) and good times were had. I'd be more than happy to head there again. > > Normal meeting day would be December 27th. In the past, we have moved the date to me more holiday friendly, but I'd be pretty good with normal scheduling. > > Opinions? > > D > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart at morungos.com Thu Dec 27 09:24:27 2012 From: stuart at morungos.com (Stuart Watt) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:24:27 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45479A7A-5575-4837-8199-7B2C34C65E96@morungos.com> I'll be there. All the best Stuart On 2012-12-26, at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > > Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. > Tanks in advance. > /jordan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 15:50:47 2012 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 18:50:47 -0500 Subject: [tpm] December Social In-Reply-To: <45479A7A-5575-4837-8199-7B2C34C65E96@morungos.com> References: <1356568559.68506.YahooMailClassic@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <45479A7A-5575-4837-8199-7B2C34C65E96@morungos.com> Message-ID: <8A8CE5EA-95C8-4692-B49C-1E0D68E18DDE@gmail.com> I iz here. East side past the bar at the back. -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On 2012-12-27, at 12:24 PM, Stuart Watt wrote: > I'll be there. > > All the best > Stuart > > > On 2012-12-26, at 7:35 PM, J Z Tam wrote: > >> >> Just wanted to get a show of hands for tommorrow night, in case we need to book a portion of C'Est What real estate. >> Tanks in advance. >> /jordan > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeen at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 18:25:37 2012 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:25:37 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... Message-ID: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> Shouldn't the outcome of a test be independent of whether the test has a description/name/label or not? First, try this at the command line: $> perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1);is(! 0, not 0);done_testing;' You should get: ok 1 ok 2 1..2 ... which is what I would expect. But now, try this, which simply adds a description to each test: $ perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1, "test1");is(! 0, not 0, "test2");done_testing;' ok 1 not ok 2 # Failed test at -e line 1. # got: '1' # expected: '' 1..2 # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. Neither test prints its description, and the second test now fails. This is adapted from tests 4 and 5 in the Perl 5 core distribution's t/op/not.t. Although that program uses t/test.pl instead of Test::More (as above), the outcome is the same. (If you have a checkout and build of blead, say: cd t; ./perl harness -v op/not.t) There's something strange happening with operator precedence here. Can anyone suss this out? Thank you very much. Jim Keenan From liam at holoweb.net Thu Dec 27 19:06:10 2012 From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:06:10 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1356663970.12010.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2012-12-27 at 21:25 -0500, James E Keenan wrote: > $> perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1);is(! 0, not 0);done_testing;' [...] > But now, try this, which simply adds a description to each test: > > $ perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1, "test1");is(! 0, not 0, > "test2");done_testing;' I think (the docs aren't 100% clear) that the optional third argument is not the test name. ok() and is() take either actual value, expected value, test name or true-if-ok, test name so a test of is(false, "hello") will correctly be reported as failed. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml From olaf.alders at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 19:08:55 2012 From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:08:55 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2012-12-27, at 9:25 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > Shouldn't the outcome of a test be independent of whether the test has a description/name/label or not? > > First, try this at the command line: > > $> perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1);is(! 0, not 0);done_testing;' > > You should get: > > ok 1 > ok 2 > 1..2 > > ... which is what I would expect. > > > But now, try this, which simply adds a description to each test: > > $ perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1, "test1");is(! 0, not 0, "test2");done_testing;' > ok 1 > not ok 2 > # Failed test at -e line 1. > # got: '1' > # expected: '' > 1..2 > # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. > > Neither test prints its description, and the second test now fails. Hi Jim, I think Liam has answered the question, but I wanted to point out from the Test::More docs that (quoting here) "You are encouraged to use is() and isnt() over ok() where possible, however do not be tempted to use them to find out if something is true or false!" Best, Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf.alders at gmail.com http://www.wundercounter.com http://twitter.com/wundercounter 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America) 416 944 8306 (direct) From jkeen at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 19:41:12 2012 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:41:12 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> On 12/27/12 10:08 PM, Olaf Alders wrote: > > On 2012-12-27, at 9:25 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > >> Shouldn't the outcome of a test be independent of whether the test has a description/name/label or not? >> >> First, try this at the command line: >> >> $> perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1);is(! 0, not 0);done_testing;' >> >> You should get: >> >> ok 1 >> ok 2 >> 1..2 >> >> ... which is what I would expect. >> >> >> But now, try this, which simply adds a description to each test: >> >> $ perl -MTest::More -E 'is(! 1, not 1, "test1");is(! 0, not 0, "test2");done_testing;' >> ok 1 >> not ok 2 >> # Failed test at -e line 1. >> # got: '1' >> # expected: '' >> 1..2 >> # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. >> >> Neither test prints its description, and the second test now fails. > > Hi Jim, > > I think Liam has answered the question, but I wanted to point out from the Test::More docs that (quoting here) "You are encouraged to use is() and isnt() over ok() where possible, however do not be tempted to use them to find out if something is true or false!" > But we experience the same problem with 'ok' as with 'is': $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1);ok(! 0 eq not 0);done_testing;' ok 1 ok 2 1..2 $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1, "test1");ok(! 0 eq not 0, "test2");done_testing;' ok 1 not ok 2 # Failed test at -e line 1. 1..2 # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. Adding a description changes the outcome of the second test, and both descriptions vanish into the ether. jimk From uri at stemsystems.com Thu Dec 27 20:25:03 2012 From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:25:03 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> On 12/27/2012 10:41 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > But we experience the same problem with 'ok' as with 'is': > > $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1);ok(! 0 eq not 0);done_testing;' > ok 1 > ok 2 > 1..2 > > $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1, "test1");ok(! 0 eq not 0, > "test2");done_testing;' > ok 1 > not ok 2 > # Failed test at -e line 1. > 1..2 > # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. > > Adding a description changes the outcome of the second test, and both > descriptions vanish into the ether. it is a precedence issue with 'not' remember, not is a low precedence op. look at this change putting () around the second call to not: perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1, "test1");ok(! 0 eq (not 0), "test2");done_testing;' ok 1 ok 2 - test2 1..2 look at these two and you can see the difference more clearly. not is a scalar with low precedence. so 0, "foo\n" is the SCALAR comma op which will return "foo\n" to not which then makes it 0 and fails the test. perl -le 'print !0 eq not 0, "foo\n"' perl -le 'print !0 eq not 0' 1 so the test is faulty itself by leaving not bare without parens to clear up the expression. the reason the test name is eaten when it passes is the same thing. the result of not 1, "test1" is false and the name isn't ever passed to ok(). the test itself passes due to the false value returned by not. uri From uri at stemsystems.com Thu Dec 27 20:43:16 2012 From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:43:16 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> Message-ID: <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> On 12/27/2012 11:25 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > On 12/27/2012 10:41 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > >> But we experience the same problem with 'ok' as with 'is': >> >> $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1);ok(! 0 eq not 0);done_testing;' >> ok 1 >> ok 2 >> 1..2 >> >> $ perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1, "test1");ok(! 0 eq not 0, >> "test2");done_testing;' >> ok 1 >> not ok 2 >> # Failed test at -e line 1. >> 1..2 >> # Looks like you failed 1 test of 2. >> >> Adding a description changes the outcome of the second test, and both >> descriptions vanish into the ether. > > it is a precedence issue with 'not' remember, not is a low precedence > op. look at this change putting () around the second call to not: > > perl -MTest::More -E 'ok(! 1 eq not 1, "test1");ok(! 0 eq (not 0), > "test2");done_testing;' > ok 1 > ok 2 - test2 > 1..2 > > look at these two and you can see the difference more clearly. not is a > scalar with low precedence. so 0, "foo\n" is the SCALAR comma op which > will return "foo\n" to not which then makes it 0 and fails the test. > > > perl -le 'print !0 eq not 0, "foo\n"' > > perl -le 'print !0 eq not 0' > 1 > > so the test is faulty itself by leaving not bare without parens to clear > up the expression. > > the reason the test name is eaten when it passes is the same thing. the > result of not 1, "test1" is false and the name isn't ever passed to > ok(). the test itself passes due to the false value returned by not. i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not that is causing this as well as its low precedence. it allows its scalar context from its prototype to envelope '0, "foo\n" which forces that comma to its scalar form. what you think is a list of 2 values in ok() is really a list of 1 value. same with the print one liners. they are both printing 1 value but the first looks like it is a list of 2 values. uri From mike at stok.ca Fri Dec 28 07:59:45 2012 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:59:45 -0500 Subject: [tpm] What do we need to do to get the new web site live? Message-ID: What is left to do to make the new web site developed at a hackathon a few months ago live? It would be good to start the new year with the new web site up and running.... I have been busy with $work, so I've not been updating the http://to.pm.org site as much as I should. Regards, Mike -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olaf.alders at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 08:36:38 2012 From: olaf.alders at gmail.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 11:36:38 -0500 Subject: [tpm] What do we need to do to get the new web site live? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87C46420-A86B-4255-B7EF-31BFA7117950@gmail.com> On 2012-12-28, at 10:59 AM, Mike Stok wrote: > What is left to do to make the new web site developed at a hackathon a few months ago live? It would be good to start the new year with the new web site up and running.... > > I have been busy with $work, so I've not been updating the http://to.pm.org site as much as I should. At this point it's just a matter of deployment. Right now Matt has it deployed here: http://torontopm-torontopm.dotcloud.com/ If we want to be able to use our current domain name, there's a monthly fee to host at dotcloud. We could also deploy on Indy's machine, but we'd need the admin of that machine to help out with an apache config to proxy to whichever port number we'll deploy under (unless we deploy the code as CGI). We could also host it on one of my boxes. In that case, we don't need to contact anyone for root access and we can install whatever we need etc. Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf.alders at gmail.com http://www.wundercounter.com http://twitter.com/wundercounter 866 503 2204 (Toll free - North America) 416 944 8306 (direct) From jkeen at verizon.net Fri Dec 28 19:57:55 2012 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 22:57:55 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> Message-ID: <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not > that is causing this as well as its low precedence. I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but not with the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward the documentation or source code for that? Thank you very much. Jim Keenan From legrady at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 20:13:19 2012 From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:13:19 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> Message-ID: An operator is a routine On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:57 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > > i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not >> that is causing this as well as its low precedence. >> > > I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for > instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but not with > the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward the > documentation or source code for that? > > > Thank you very much. > Jim Keenan > ______________________________**_________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/**listinfo/toronto-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fulko.hew at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 20:28:58 2012 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:28:58 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:57 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > > i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not >> that is causing this as well as its low precedence. >> > > I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for > instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but not with > the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward the > documentation or source code for that? > Don't think about prototypes, its seems you are encountering a precedence issue. Check out the following, and play with variations on the theme: perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; sub is {print Dumper($_) foreach (@_); } is(! 1, not 1, "test1");' $VAR1 = ''; $VAR1 = ''; what you in effect have are arg 1: ! 1 arg 2: not 1, "test1" that is, because of precedence, the latter part effectively becomes not (1, "test1") Then look what happens when you remove the 'not': perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; sub is {print Dumper($_) foreach (@_); } is(! 1, 1, "test1");' $VAR1 = ''; $VAR1 = 1; $VAR1 = 'test1'; You see the three parameters you think your providing, so what you really wanted is: is ( ! 1, (not 1), "test1"); Fulko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uri at stemsystems.com Fri Dec 28 20:32:19 2012 From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:32:19 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DE7253.6060103@stemsystems.com> On 12/28/2012 10:57 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > >> i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not >> that is causing this as well as its low precedence. > > I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for > instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but not > with the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward > the documentation or source code for that? perldoc -f prototype by knowing the prototypes of builtin funcs you can emulate them for tests and such. look at File::Slurp's test error.t which fakes out sysread and syswrite so it can test handling errors from them. it overrides them but the prototype has to match. perl -le 'print prototype "CORE::not"' $ perl -le 'print prototype "CORE::!"' Can't find an opnumber for "!" at -e line 1. so 'not' isn't just a lower precedence version of ! but it also is a named function with a prototype. i am sure ! also has a $ prototype but you can't get that from the prototype call. uri From uri at stemsystems.com Fri Dec 28 20:36:46 2012 From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:36:46 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DE735E.2030501@stemsystems.com> On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:57 PM, James E Keenan wrote: > >> On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: >> >> i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not >>> that is causing this as well as its low precedence. >>> >> >> I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for >> instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but not with >> the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward the >> documentation or source code for that? >> > > > Don't think about prototypes, its seems you are encountering a precedence > issue. it is a combination of the prototype and precedence as i showed. without the $ prototype of 'not', it wouldn't force the , to be in scalar mode and have it return the test name as the arg to not. that is why the name wasn't ever printed in all of jim's cases. the precedence comes into play as it allows the , to be evaluated first before 'not'. ! would bind tightly to the first value and let , be a list op (context provided by the ok() call). this only happens because both the low precedence of 'not' and its scalar prototype work to make , into a scalar op with 2 args. uri From jkeen at verizon.net Sat Dec 29 08:41:23 2012 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 11:41:23 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <50DE735E.2030501@stemsystems.com> References: <50DD0321.4000704@verizon.net> <50DD14D8.6060702@verizon.net> <50DD1F1F.7050102@stemsystems.com> <50DD2364.3020105@stemsystems.com> <50DE6A43.1060302@verizon.net> <50DE735E.2030501@stemsystems.com> Message-ID: <50DF1D33.6040705@verizon.net> On 12/28/12 11:36 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: > On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:57 PM, James E Keenan >> wrote: >> >>> On 12/27/12 11:43 PM, Uri Guttman wrote: >>> >>> i want to clarify my statement there. it is the scalar prototype of not >>>> that is causing this as well as its low precedence. >>>> >>> >>> I'm familiar with prototypes as an aspect of subroutines in Perl (for >>> instance, Test::More::is is, under the hood, prototyped $$;$), but >>> not with >>> the concept of prototypes for operators. Can you point me toward the >>> documentation or source code for that? >>> >> >> >> Don't think about prototypes, its seems you are encountering a precedence >> issue. > > it is a combination of the prototype and precedence as i showed. without > the $ prototype of 'not', it wouldn't force the , to be in scalar mode > and have it return the test name as the arg to not. that is why the name > wasn't ever printed in all of jim's cases. > > the precedence comes into play as it allows the , to be evaluated first > before 'not'. ! would bind tightly to the first value and let , be a > list op (context provided by the ok() call). > > this only happens because both the low precedence of 'not' and its > scalar prototype work to make , into a scalar op with 2 args. > Thanks to all. Based on feedback on this list and from a similar post on the St Louis Perlmongers list, I've created two patches for t/op/not.t in the Perl 5 core distro and sent them to perlbug: https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=116242 We should probably continue the discussion there. Thank you very much. Jim Keenan