From mike at stok.ca Fri Apr 1 19:33:08 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 22:33:08 -0400 Subject: [tpm] April meeting: lightning talks Message-ID: <76FE9A74-C487-4519-AC3B-9F23DA3C23E3@stok.ca> The April meeting of the Toronto Perl Mongers will be lightning talks. Please let me know if you have a 5 (to 10) minute talk you'd like to give, or pitch out some subjects to the list which might inspire others to claim their minutes in the spot-light. I'll update the web site with talk titles and people as I get them. Mike -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 21:58:13 2011 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 00:58:13 -0400 Subject: [tpm] April meeting: lightning talks In-Reply-To: <76FE9A74-C487-4519-AC3B-9F23DA3C23E3@stok.ca> References: <76FE9A74-C487-4519-AC3B-9F23DA3C23E3@stok.ca> Message-ID: <988A8CCE-DB22-4922-8162-4060AF4F0A0E@gmail.com> I'd like to do a quick overview of Bread::Board. -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com On 2011-04-01, at 10:33 PM, Mike Stok wrote: > The April meeting of the Toronto Perl Mongers will be lightning talks. Please let me know if you have a 5 (to 10) minute talk you'd like to give, or pitch out some subjects to the list which might inspire others to claim their minutes in the spot-light. > > I'll update the web site with talk titles and people as I get them. > > Mike > > -- > > Mike Stok > http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ > > The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olaf at vilerichard.com Sat Apr 2 05:54:01 2011 From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 08:54:01 -0400 Subject: [tpm] April meeting: lightning talks In-Reply-To: <76FE9A74-C487-4519-AC3B-9F23DA3C23E3@stok.ca> References: <76FE9A74-C487-4519-AC3B-9F23DA3C23E3@stok.ca> Message-ID: <33D20753-4B7F-43C3-ABC0-593B854902A3@vilerichard.com> On 2011-04-01, at 10:33 PM, Mike Stok wrote: > The April meeting of the Toronto Perl Mongers will be lightning talks. Please let me know if you have a 5 (to 10) minute talk you'd like to give, or pitch out some subjects to the list which might inspire others to claim their minutes in the spot-light. > > I'll update the web site with talk titles and people as I get them. > > Mike I can talk about the MetaCPAN API. Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://twitter.com/vilerichard http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard From arocker at Vex.Net Mon Apr 4 15:25:10 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:25:10 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Modern Perl Message-ID: The dead-tree version of chromatic's book is now in the Toronto Public Library system. There's a fair amount of rather basic material in it, but I learnt a few things reading it. From mike at stok.ca Tue Apr 5 04:56:15 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:56:15 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Fwd: UG News: Free to Choose Ebook Deal/Day - Save 50% - All Head First Ebooks References: <1301987076.10807.0.789056@post.oreilly.com> Message-ID: <8A7A5426-2798-41A9-8970-CFF72EF477FC@stok.ca> View in Browser. Forward this announcement to your user group or a friend. Save 50% Ebook Deal of the Day *Free to Choose* Your Head First Titles For one day only, you can SAVE 50% on these Head First titles. Use discount code DDHDD in the shopping cart. Ebooks from oreilly.com are DRM-free. You get free lifetime access, and free updates. Head First Python Was: $39.99 Now: $19.99 Head First Java, Second Edition Was: $35.99 Now: $17.99 Head First Design Patterns Was: $35.99 Now: $17.99 Head First C#, Second Edition Was: $39.99 Now: $19.99 Head First PHP & MySQL Was: $35.99 Now: $17.99 Head First HTML with CSS & XHTML Was: $31.99 Now: $15.99 Head First JavaScript Was: $31.99 Now: $15.99 Head First PMP, 2E Was: $55.99 Now: $27.99 Head First SQL Was: $35.99 Now: $17.99 Head First WordPress Was: $14.99 Now: $7.49 Plus over 15 more titles, view them now > You are receiving this email because you are a User Group contact with O'Reilly Media. Forward this announcement. If you would like to stop receiving these newsletters or announcements from O'Reilly, send an email to marsee at oreilly.com. O'Reilly Media, Inc. 1005 Gravenstein Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472 (707) 827-7000 > -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Wed Apr 6 08:23:27 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 11:23:27 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Dancer and PAR/pp Message-ID: Anyone tried packaging a perl Dancer app with PAR/pp in order to make the app portable and somewhat system independant? Any success? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 08:52:43 2011 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 11:52:43 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Dancer and PAR/pp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'fraid not. However: 1) You should give a talk on packaging apps 2) You should tell us how you figure out how to package a Dancer one. :D -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:23 AM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > Anyone tried packaging a perl Dancer app with PAR/pp in order to make the > app portable and somewhat system independant? Any success? > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Wed Apr 6 09:00:10 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:00:10 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Dancer and PAR/pp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heh, well if I do somehow figure it out, I'll share :) I've packaged a simple test QT app with pp, it was pretty simple. I packaged it to run on linux, and then packaged the same app via PAR on strawberry perl for windows, and it worked fine (though, OpenGL kinda didn't render the same on both systems, but that had nothing to do with PP or QT). On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Dave Doyle wrote: > 'fraid not. > > However: > > 1) You should give a talk on packaging apps > 2) You should tell us how you figure out how to package a Dancer one. > > :D > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:23 AM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > >> Anyone tried packaging a perl Dancer app with PAR/pp in order to make the >> app portable and somewhat system independant? Any success? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olaf at vilerichard.com Wed Apr 6 09:04:21 2011 From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:04:21 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Dancer and PAR/pp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011-04-06, at 11:52 AM, Dave Doyle wrote: > 'fraid not. > > However: > > 1) You should give a talk on packaging apps > 2) You should tell us how you figure out how to package a Dancer one. Dave is correct! Having said that, their IRC channel is quite friendly and helpful. That's probably a good place to start preparing for your talk. Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://twitter.com/vilerichard http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard From mattp at cpan.org Wed Apr 6 09:28:22 2011 From: mattp at cpan.org (mattp) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:28:22 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Dancer and PAR/pp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9C94A6.9050101@cpan.org> On 04/06/2011 11:23 AM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > Anyone tried packaging a perl Dancer app with PAR/pp in order to make > the app portable and somewhat system independant? Any success? > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm Local::lib and some manual patching will get you most of the way there. PAR/pp are probably NOT what you want. Two things exist I'm aware of that handle distribution packaging: 1) Shipwright ( http://search.cpan.org/~sunnavy/Shipwright-2.4.24/lib/Shipwright.pm ) 2) Mist ( https://github.com/willert/mist ) Mist is dzil based, and is geared exactly towards what you're trying to do. It's very alpha though. I've not used either to do what you're trying though, so your mileage may vary. Cheers, Matt Phillips -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Wed Apr 6 13:11:56 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:11:56 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Playing with Dancer (beginner assistance required) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alright, so I got as far as setting up a couple of routes to return serialized JSON provided the input is correct. So far, so good. Now, I'm trying to handle forms.. so far I I'm using HTML::FormFu, and it seems to flow well with the templates. The question I have now is, how do I utilize the JSON api routes I've created from a form. For example, say I have '/api/1.0/component/input' which returns serialized JSON. Now lets say I have '/ui/1.0/form1' which provides an HTML form for the user to submit something. Once I retrieve the parameters, how do I use it to make a request to the 'component' api above. Some code might be helpful, see here: http://pastebin.jbldata.com/m66912508 -Bobby On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:10 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > Understood.. I thought it was the other way around (config.yml overrides > development.yml). Logging works now, thanks! > > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: > >> Okay, stuff in the development.yaml will override stuff in config.yml (the >> intent is so you can have difference loggers, log levels, etc for >> production/dev) so it's going to change the logger to a console logger so >> you should see it directly in the output (not sure why you don't). You can >> try yanking the log stuff out of config.yml and change the development.yml >> to logger to "file". It should then log to log/development.log. >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:01 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: >> >>> Hey Dave, >>> >>> I just added two lines to the default config.yml: >>> logger: 'file' >>> log: 'core' >>> >>> I'm running the app via ./bin/app.pl, yes. >>> >>> Didn't modify development.yml, but see that it is the following: >>> >>> logger: "console" >>> log: "core" >>> warnings: 1 >>> show_errors: 1 >>> auto_reload: 0 >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: >>> >>>> 1) How are you running the app? Just perl bin/app.pl? >>>> 2) Can you post the contents of config.yml and >>>> environments/development.yml? ( less passwordy-bits of course) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> D >>>> -- >>>> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:44 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: >>>> >>>>> So I started playing with Dancer, and am trying to figure out how to >>>>> enable logging. >>>>> >>>>> I've seen the Dancer Cookbook, and saw the Dancer::Config stuff: >>>>> >>>>> Dancer::Config::setting('appdir',$appdir); >>>>> Dancer::Config::load(); >>>>> >>>>> And I added the 'logger' and 'log' items to the config.yml file, but >>>>> when I try to use a simple debug statement, such as: >>>>> >>>>> debug "hey it's me"; >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't log to the console or any log file. No log file is created >>>>> in the appdir/. >>>>> >>>>> What am I missing? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> -Bobby >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> toronto-pm mailing list >>>>> toronto-pm at pm.org >>>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Wed Apr 6 13:31:37 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:31:37 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Playing with Dancer (beginner assistance required) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just FYI, I know I could simply write a subroutine to do this, which may duplicate the code in the routine that currently handles the API component, but I'm looking to see if there is a Dancer-ish way to pull the data. On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:11 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > Alright, so I got as far as setting up a couple of routes to return > serialized JSON provided the input is correct. > > So far, so good. > > Now, I'm trying to handle forms.. so far I I'm using HTML::FormFu, and it > seems to flow well with the templates. > > The question I have now is, how do I utilize the JSON api routes I've > created from a form. > > For example, say I have '/api/1.0/component/input' which returns serialized > JSON. > > Now lets say I have '/ui/1.0/form1' which provides an HTML form for the > user to submit something. > > Once I retrieve the parameters, how do I use it to make a request to the > 'component' api above. > > Some code might be helpful, see here: > http://pastebin.jbldata.com/m66912508 > > > -Bobby > > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:10 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > >> Understood.. I thought it was the other way around (config.yml overrides >> development.yml). Logging works now, thanks! >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: >> >>> Okay, stuff in the development.yaml will override stuff in config.yml >>> (the intent is so you can have difference loggers, log levels, etc for >>> production/dev) so it's going to change the logger to a console logger so >>> you should see it directly in the output (not sure why you don't). You can >>> try yanking the log stuff out of config.yml and change the development.yml >>> to logger to "file". It should then log to log/development.log. >>> -- >>> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:01 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Dave, >>>> >>>> I just added two lines to the default config.yml: >>>> logger: 'file' >>>> log: 'core' >>>> >>>> I'm running the app via ./bin/app.pl, yes. >>>> >>>> Didn't modify development.yml, but see that it is the following: >>>> >>>> logger: "console" >>>> log: "core" >>>> warnings: 1 >>>> show_errors: 1 >>>> auto_reload: 0 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1) How are you running the app? Just perl bin/app.pl? >>>>> 2) Can you post the contents of config.yml and >>>>> environments/development.yml? ( less passwordy-bits of course) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> D >>>>> -- >>>>> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:44 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So I started playing with Dancer, and am trying to figure out how to >>>>>> enable logging. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've seen the Dancer Cookbook, and saw the Dancer::Config stuff: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dancer::Config::setting('appdir',$appdir); >>>>>> Dancer::Config::load(); >>>>>> >>>>>> And I added the 'logger' and 'log' items to the config.yml file, but >>>>>> when I try to use a simple debug statement, such as: >>>>>> >>>>>> debug "hey it's me"; >>>>>> >>>>>> It doesn't log to the console or any log file. No log file is created >>>>>> in the appdir/. >>>>>> >>>>>> What am I missing? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> -Bobby >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> toronto-pm mailing list >>>>>> toronto-pm at pm.org >>>>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Thu Apr 7 12:55:47 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 15:55:47 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Problem with WWW::Mechanize in Dancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Likely not everyone on TPM is on the Dancer mailing list (where I've posted this as well). But many of you may have related experience with WWW::Mechanize, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Using this code: http://pastebin.jbldata.com/m230ae053 .. the json_api_call() routine just hangs. However, I'm able to use the json_api_call() routine in a stand-alone script without issue. Any thoughts? Thanks, -Bobby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Thu Apr 7 13:42:22 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:42:22 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Problem with WWW::Mechanize in Dancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just FYI, it seems to be a problem between Mechanize and Dancer, troubleshooting it further on the Dancer list. On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:55 PM, J. Bobby Lopez wrote: > Likely not everyone on TPM is on the Dancer mailing list (where I've posted > this as well). > > But many of you may have related experience with WWW::Mechanize, so I > figured I'd give it a shot. > > Using this code: http://pastebin.jbldata.com/m230ae053 > > .. the json_api_call() routine just hangs. However, I'm able to use the > json_api_call() routine in a stand-alone script without issue. > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks, > -Bobby > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 08:45:01 2011 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 11:45:01 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Problem with WWW::Mechanize in Dancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bobby, Some stylistic comments .. [] I always cringe when I see shift used to take stuff off the parameter list .. even if it's for a single argument, I prefer .. my ( $url ) = @_ .. [] WWW::Mech is a great module, but I'm not sure why you need to use it, rather than LWP::UserAgent, which it inherits. Simple is better -- but I have no idea if that would solve the hanging problem. [] After calling WWW::Mech, you're not testing whether you got a good browser object back .. might be good to check that. [] Try::Tiny is a nice alternative to eval .. just be aware if you use that module that the error ends up in $_, not $@. I assume you're not able to look at the web server where your request is going .. but if you are, the server logs might give you some insight. Good luck! -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From jbl at jbldata.com Fri Apr 8 10:57:04 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 13:57:04 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Problem with WWW::Mechanize in Dancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Alex. In this instance, I was just playing around to see if I could make the RPC call to itself. Using subs as Flavio suggested (on the Dancer list) removes the need to make the RPC call, but it would have been neat to write the UI components using the API as it was intended, even if it was within the same application. The guys on the Dancer list were saying this isn't how it should be used (Dancer RPC calls should not be made to itself, and that this is what's causing the hang). I removed a bunch of debug statements to make the code easier to read (on pastebin), but I I had some code in there to check the browser->get() object. Never used Try::Tiny, so will have to take a look at that; and I've used Mechanize a few times before so it just seemed natural, but I'll look at LWP::UserAgent as well. I know better about shifting off @_, but old habits die hard :\ Thanks very much for the feedback and suggestions, very much appreciated. -Bobby On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Hi Bobby, > > Some stylistic comments .. > > [] I always cringe when I see shift used to take stuff off the > parameter list .. even if it's for a single argument, I prefer .. my ( > $url ) = @_ .. > > [] WWW::Mech is a great module, but I'm not sure why you need to use > it, rather than LWP::UserAgent, which it inherits. Simple is better -- > but I have no idea if that would solve the hanging problem. > > [] After calling WWW::Mech, you're not testing whether you got a good > browser object back .. might be good to check that. > > [] Try::Tiny is a nice alternative to eval .. just be aware if you use > that module that the error ends up in $_, not $@. > > I assume you're not able to look at the web server where your request > is going .. but if you are, the server logs might give you some > insight. > > Good luck! > > -- > Alex Beamish > Toronto, Ontario > aka talexb > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsen at looksmart.net Fri Apr 8 12:21:57 2011 From: lsen at looksmart.net (Li Sen) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:21:57 -0700 Subject: [tpm] [JOB] Sr Software Engineer Ad Serving/BI Message-ID: <4D9F6055.2050800@looksmart.net> Hi, LookSmart is a public company located in San Francisco that builds and manages ad networks. We are expanding and will be opening an office in Toronto, thus, we're looking for strong Perl senior software engineers to either join our ad serving or business intelligence engineering teams. If you are interested in: -projects that deal with data sets in the billions per day (ad requests for ad serving and log lines in BI) and where performance is measured in ms -rapid release cycles (e.g. weekly) that rely heavily on automated testing -working with team mates that are highly technical and team-focused -having perltidy and Perl::Critic as gating factors in code check-ins (of course, configurations for both are reasonable) We may have a position for you. Some qualifications: -Strong Perl and UNIX system programming skills (in Perl or C) -Experience developing scalable HPC applications and dealing with extremely large data sets (1 billion or more transactions per day) -Experience in solving complex technical problems of significant scope -Experience developing and operating Perl-based data warehousing/ETL applications against very large relational databases, especially Oracle -Experience in web/click stream analysis -Experience with test automation, UNIX admin, and distributed systems If the above sounds like what you are looking for, please email me your cover letter and/or resume, preferably in text format. Thanks, Li -- LookSmart.com Director of Engineering, Ad Serving and BI From mike at stok.ca Thu Apr 14 12:11:40 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:11:40 -0400 Subject: [tpm] More speakers for this month? Message-ID: <32F0C54B-9B33-44A3-BC74-B5E4E16003A4@stok.ca> I'm looking for more people to stand up for a few minutes and give a lightning talk or two this month (April 28). I'm looking for volunteers for May (26) and June (30). The June date might be a little close to the end of YAPC::NA http://www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/ . How many people are planning to go to YAPC::NA? If there are people from TO going then maybe we should move the TPM meeting? Any comments about this? Mike -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Mon Apr 18 16:09:33 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:09:33 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [Fwd: BSDCan 2011] Message-ID: <81df4208966342a63389df40f419fbf1.squirrel@mail.vex.net> If anybody is interested in BSD, they might like to know about the conference: BSDCan is running 13-14 May with tutorials on the 11th and 12th of May. http://www.bsdcan.org/2011/ From arocker at Vex.Net Wed Apr 20 15:54:37 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:54:37 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Is anybody in the group working on Perl 6? Message-ID: <32f2e212b414013bc1d8d5646a2af601.squirrel@mail.vex.net> I'd like to know what sort of directory structure the Rakudo tarball creates, and what it requires in the way of other programs. From jkeen at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 16:10:37 2011 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:10:37 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Is anybody in the group working on Perl 6? In-Reply-To: <32f2e212b414013bc1d8d5646a2af601.squirrel@mail.vex.net> References: <32f2e212b414013bc1d8d5646a2af601.squirrel@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <9A30AB75-8A4A-4FD9-BD9E-D35CB17320C4@verizon.net> On Apr 20, 2011, at 6:54 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote: > > I'd like to know what sort of directory structure the Rakudo tarball > creates, and what it requires in the way of other programs. Why not just download a tarball, unpack it, and run 'find . -type d'? https://github.com/downloads/rakudo/star/rakudo-star-2011.01.tar.gz (And there will probably be an updated rakudo-star out next week.) jimk From mike at stok.ca Tue Apr 26 04:08:11 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:08:11 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Meeting: Thursdau 28 April 2011 Message-ID: This month's meeting is on Thursday, as soon as I know the room I'll update the details at http://to.pm.org. Mike -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mike at stok.ca Fri Apr 29 04:26:41 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:26:41 -0400 Subject: [tpm] May meeting - speaker(s) and suggestions Message-ID: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> Next Month's meeting will be on Thursday 26 May, 2011. I'm looking for volunteers and / or suggestions for topics. One thing I had thought of was people's favourite non-Perl technologies for work and play, as long as there is some connection, no matter how tenuous, to Perl. I'm sure other people have better ideas... Mike -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Fri Apr 29 07:37:20 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:37:20 -0400 Subject: [tpm] May meeting - speaker(s) and suggestions In-Reply-To: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> References: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> Message-ID: <64eec22cc89d8d3110bad5d5a74ed128.squirrel@mail.vex.net> > > I'm looking for volunteers and / or suggestions for topics. > I'd be interested to hear about how people are planning to integrate smart phones and/or fondleslabs in business systems. (I assume that companies are at least considering their possibilities as data capture devices, delivery mechanisms, or something I haven't envisaged?) From olaf at vilerichard.com Fri Apr 29 10:11:07 2011 From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:11:07 -0400 Subject: [tpm] May meeting - speaker(s) and suggestions In-Reply-To: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> References: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> Message-ID: <9605D161-DC15-4951-B331-D20029F483E1@vilerichard.com> On 2011-04-29, at 7:26 AM, Mike Stok wrote: > Next Month's meeting will be on Thursday 26 May, 2011. > > I'm looking for volunteers and / or suggestions for topics. > > One thing I had thought of was people's favourite non-Perl technologies for work and play, as long as there is some connection, no matter how tenuous, to Perl. I'm sure other people have better ideas... I'd like to see someone talk on node.js or, ahem, Arduino. Having said that, I liked the format for last night's talks. I think if a handful of people are prepared to talk for 20-30 minutes on something, it's long enough to get useful information across, but not so long that the talk preparation seems daunting. Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://twitter.com/vilerichard http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard From arocker at Vex.Net Fri Apr 29 11:33:09 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:33:09 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Perl 6 performance relative to Perl 5.10 Message-ID: I decided to get some numbers to add to last night's discussion. To test the basic overhead, I used a minimal command-line program. As a baseline, the system Perl, 5.10.1 returned the following: time perl -e ";" 0.00 user 0.01 system 0:00.01 elapsed 100%CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 5712 maxresident)k (When re-run, even the 1s disappeared.) 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 419 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps Perl 6, run 3 times to eliminate the influence of Linux' aggressive caching: time ./perl6 -e ";" 1.52 user 0.16 system 0:02.37 elapsed 70% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 263456 maxresident)k 18384 inputs + 0 outputs (45 major+ 16487 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps time ./perl6 -e ";" 1.13 user 0.06 system 0:01.33 elapsed 88% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 263440 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps time ./perl6 -e ";" 1.25 user 0.14 system 0:01.51 elapsed 91% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 263440 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps (I'm at a loss to explain the increase on the 3rd try of Perl 6.) Giving the program something real to do seems to add very little work: time perl -e 'print "present\n";' present 0.00 user 0.00 system 0:00.00 elapsed 0% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 6096 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 443 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" present 1.22 user 0.09 system 0:01.41 elapsed 92% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 263600 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" present 1.39 user 0.21 system 0:01.76 elapsed 90% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 263616 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps To see the effect of a reasonable number of arithmetic operations: time perl -e "my \$x; for (1..100000){\$x++}; print \"\$x\n\";" 100000 0.01 user 0.00 system 0:00.02 elapsed 45% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 6352 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 459 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps time ./perl6 -e "my \$x; for 1..100000 {\$x++}; say \"\$x\";" 100000 55.59 user 0.75 system 1:02.7 0elapsed 89% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 601952 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 40452 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps Rather significant differences. From mattp at cpan.org Fri Apr 29 13:14:39 2011 From: mattp at cpan.org (mattp) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:14:39 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Perl 6 performance relative to Perl 5.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> Alan, Chromatic wrote a more in depth comparison of Perl 5 and Rakudo benchmarks a while back: http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/07/an-accurate-comparison-of-perl-5-and-rakudo-star.html Simple benchmarks aren't exactly fair when comparing the two. Though the 60 second loop was surprising to see, regardless of optimizations / lack there of. Cheers, Matt On 04/29/2011 02:33 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote: > I decided to get some numbers to add to last night's discussion. To test > the basic overhead, I used a minimal command-line program. > > As a baseline, the system Perl, 5.10.1 returned the following: > > time perl -e ";" > 0.00 user 0.01 system 0:00.01 elapsed 100%CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 5712 maxresident)k (When re-run, even the 1s disappeared.) > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 419 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > Perl 6, run 3 times to eliminate the influence of Linux' aggressive caching: > > time ./perl6 -e ";" > 1.52 user 0.16 system 0:02.37 elapsed 70% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 263456 maxresident)k > 18384 inputs + 0 outputs (45 major+ 16487 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > time ./perl6 -e ";" > 1.13 user 0.06 system 0:01.33 elapsed 88% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 263440 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > time ./perl6 -e ";" > 1.25 user 0.14 system 0:01.51 elapsed 91% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 263440 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > (I'm at a loss to explain the increase on the 3rd try of Perl 6.) > > Giving the program something real to do seems to add very little work: > > time perl -e 'print "present\n";' > present > 0.00 user 0.00 system 0:00.00 elapsed 0% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 6096 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 443 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" > present > 1.22 user 0.09 system 0:01.41 elapsed 92% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 263600 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" > present > 1.39 user 0.21 system 0:01.76 elapsed 90% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 263616 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > To see the effect of a reasonable number of arithmetic operations: > > time perl -e "my \$x; for (1..100000){\$x++}; print \"\$x\n\";" > 100000 > 0.01 user 0.00 system 0:00.02 elapsed 45% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 6352 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 459 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > time ./perl6 -e "my \$x; for 1..100000 {\$x++}; say \"\$x\";" > 100000 > 55.59 user 0.75 system 1:02.7 0elapsed 89% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata > 601952 maxresident)k > 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 40452 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps > > Rather significant differences. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm From vzshzn at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:19:04 2011 From: vzshzn at gmail.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:19:04 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Perl 6 performance relative to Perl 5.10 In-Reply-To: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> References: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> Message-ID: Hey guys. I had that looping problem when I was playing with Rakudo last year. It's not actually slow looping, it's slow lists. I presume it's the same fundamental problem now (although I really should upgrade and test), so I might as well demonstrate my generic workaround. $ time perl6 -e 'my $x; for ^1000 { $x++}; say $x' 1000 real 0m6.533s user 0m6.124s sys 0m0.364s $ time perl6 -e 'my $x; for ^10000 { $x++}; say $x' 10000 real 0m49.944s user 0m48.359s sys 0m1.140s $ time perl6 -e 'my ($x, $a) = (0,0); while ($a < 10000) { $a++; $x++}; say $x' 10000 real 0m6.688s user 0m6.204s sys 0m0.408s So instead of using ^ or .. there which requires a list to be built, I just manually assign and check a counter variable for perl6 looping Rather ironically the Benchmark.pm6 distributed then with Rakudo was made somewhat useless by this problem, so I had to write my own replacement where I first benchmarked the overhead Cheers, Rich On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 4:14 PM, mattp wrote: > Alan, > Chromatic wrote a more in depth comparison of Perl 5 and Rakudo benchmarks > a while back: > > > http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/07/an-accurate-comparison-of-perl-5-and-rakudo-star.html > > Simple benchmarks aren't exactly fair when comparing the two. Though the 60 > second loop was surprising to see, regardless of optimizations / lack there > of. > > Cheers, > Matt > > > On 04/29/2011 02:33 PM, arocker at Vex.Net wrote: > >> I decided to get some numbers to add to last night's discussion. To test >> the basic overhead, I used a minimal command-line program. >> >> As a baseline, the system Perl, 5.10.1 returned the following: >> >> time perl -e ";" >> 0.00 user 0.01 system 0:00.01 elapsed 100%CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 5712 maxresident)k (When re-run, even the 1s disappeared.) >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 419 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> Perl 6, run 3 times to eliminate the influence of Linux' aggressive >> caching: >> >> time ./perl6 -e ";" >> 1.52 user 0.16 system 0:02.37 elapsed 70% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 263456 maxresident)k >> 18384 inputs + 0 outputs (45 major+ 16487 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> time ./perl6 -e ";" >> 1.13 user 0.06 system 0:01.33 elapsed 88% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 263440 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> time ./perl6 -e ";" >> 1.25 user 0.14 system 0:01.51 elapsed 91% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 263440 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16531 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> (I'm at a loss to explain the increase on the 3rd try of Perl 6.) >> >> Giving the program something real to do seems to add very little work: >> >> time perl -e 'print "present\n";' >> present >> 0.00 user 0.00 system 0:00.00 elapsed 0% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 6096 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 443 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" >> present >> 1.22 user 0.09 system 0:01.41 elapsed 92% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 263600 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> time ./perl6 -e "say 'present';" >> present >> 1.39 user 0.21 system 0:01.76 elapsed 90% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 263616 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 16542 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> To see the effect of a reasonable number of arithmetic operations: >> >> time perl -e "my \$x; for (1..100000){\$x++}; print \"\$x\n\";" >> 100000 >> 0.01 user 0.00 system 0:00.02 elapsed 45% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 6352 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 459 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> time ./perl6 -e "my \$x; for 1..100000 {\$x++}; say \"\$x\";" >> 100000 >> 55.59 user 0.75 system 1:02.7 0elapsed 89% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata >> 601952 maxresident)k >> 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 40452 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps >> >> Rather significant differences. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbl at jbldata.com Fri Apr 29 15:38:43 2011 From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:38:43 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Fwd: [html-formfu] project status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the cross-post, but I figured this may be important for anyone who is using html-formfu (I think this includes many catalyst users). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carl Franks Date: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 4:27 PM Subject: [html-formfu] project status To: HTML FormFu My apologies for the lack of updates lately: my job has changed over the past year, so I don't have much call to use FormFu any more, and my family life doesn't give me any spare time to work on this. I've given contributor access to everyone who has made any contributions to the github projects, meaning you can make commits directly to my repositories. If anyone wishes to step-up to take over / coordinate / oversee the project, you're most welcome to make your own fork the master, and change the documentation accordingly. I can also give you the admin password for this mailing list. This doesn't mean I won't be making any more contributions - just that it's not fair for me to be a block to progress. I'm not certain, but it looks like only myself can give contributor access to my own repositories - so if anyone else wants commit access in the meantime, just let me know - I'll still be subscribed to this list. Moritz Onken (PERLER) and Andreas Marienborg (ANDREMAR) both have rights on pause (the cpan uploader) to upload files for: HTML-FormFu HTML-FormFu-Model-DBIC Catalyst-Controller-HTML-FormFu HTML-FormFu-Imager DBIx-Class-HTML-FormFu Here are some notes, which should probably be added to the docs somewhere :) The test suite for HTML-FormFu should always pass when using both the internal renderer, and TT. The internal renderer is tested by default, by just running: $ prove -lr t or $ perl Makefile.PL $ make test You can test the TT renderer by setting the environment variable HTML_FORMFU_RENDER_METHOD to "tt" On *nix, you can just run: $ HTML_FORMFU_RENDER_METHOD=tt prove -lr t Before making a release, you should check the author tests pass: $ prove -lr xt I often forget(!), but you should try to run all .pm and .t files through perltidy before making a release. All the distributions should have an identical .perltidyrc file in the root directory. This will tidy up all .pm and .t files in the lib/ and t/ directories: $ find lib -name '*.pm' -exec perltidy -b '{}' \; $ find t -name '*.pm' -exec perltidy -b '{}' \; $ find t -name '*.t' -exec perltidy -b '{}' \; And then to delete the backup files that were created: $ find lib -name '*.bak' -exec rm '{}' \; $ find t -name '*.bak' -exec rm '{}' \; Many thanks to everyone who's contributed so far, and I hope that y'all will help to keep the project going on! Carl _______________________________________________ HTML-FormFu mailing list HTML-FormFu at lists.scsys.co.uk http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/html-formfu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at Vex.Net Sat Apr 30 12:21:24 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:21:24 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Perl 6 performance relative to Perl 5.10 In-Reply-To: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> References: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> Message-ID: <905cdc5f1b6ba9e70980943e9863db1d.squirrel@mail.vex.net> > Chromatic wrote a more in depth comparison of Perl 5 and Rakudo > benchmarks a while back: > Thanks for the link. Although it would be nice if Perl 6's performance was better, at this stage of development it is hardly a criticism to establish what it is. "First you get good, then you get fast". If we are looking at production-quality code, it is a different matter. For many of Perl 5's application areas, start-up time is going to be vastly more important than performance on huge iterations. Potential Perl 6 applications, such as compilers, may be more sensitive to efficient repetition. From arocker at Vex.Net Sat Apr 30 13:06:31 2011 From: arocker at Vex.Net (arocker at Vex.Net) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 16:06:31 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Perl 6 performance relative to Perl 5.10 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBB1C2F.8080804@cpan.org> Message-ID: > Hey guys. > > I had that looping problem when I was playing with Rakudo last year. It's > not actually slow looping, it's slow lists. > > $ time perl6 -e 'my ($x, $a) = (0,0); while ($a < 10000) { $a++; $x++}; > say $x' > 10000 > > real 0m6.688s > user 0m6.204s > sys 0m0.408s > What kind of environment are you running? BSD? Removing the list certainly sped up the job, (output edited for legibility); time ./perl6 -e "my \$x = 0; while \$x < 100000 {\$x++}; say \"\$x\";" 100000 17.30 user (similar numbers for several tries) 0.14 system 0:20.35 elapsed 85% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 313136 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 21031 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps To compare my results to yours, using the same number of iterations: time ./perl6 -e "my \$x = 0; while \$x < 10000 {\$x++}; say \"\$x\";" 10000 2.54 user 0.04 system 0:03.03 elapsed 84% CPU (0 avgtext + 0 avgdata 287248 maxresident)k 0 inputs + 0 outputs (0 major + 18020 minor)pagefaults 0 swaps Adding the additional variable to increment to make it directly comparable: 3.76 user 0.08 system 0:04.69 elapsed From mike at stok.ca Sat Apr 30 17:11:48 2011 From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:11:48 -0400 Subject: [tpm] May meeting - speaker(s) and suggestions In-Reply-To: <9605D161-DC15-4951-B331-D20029F483E1@vilerichard.com> References: <30C31E5A-544C-4DE9-AF0C-93586575684B@stok.ca> <9605D161-DC15-4951-B331-D20029F483E1@vilerichard.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-29, at 1:11 PM, Olaf Alders wrote: > I'd like to see someone talk on node.js or, ahem, Arduino. Having said that, I liked the format for last night's talks. I think if a handful of people are prepared to talk for 20-30 minutes on something, it's long enough to get useful information across, but not so long that the talk preparation seems daunting. As the organiser I like to have multiple talks as it reduces the risk of a speaker's sudden unavailability eliminating the entire content of the evening. I can probably so something v. quick on Arduino, though how Perl related it is is debatable (hmmm, a Pomodoro timer I use when programming in Perl?) http://www.pragprog.com/magazines/2011-04/content might be of interest to Arduino curious people, and I bought a pre-packaged bundle o' bits from Creatron on the south side of College just east of Spadina http://creatroninc.com/. Mike - -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAk28pUUACgkQnsTBwAWZE9rkrACgsySHallvuVGI39t2vZFRf2Ne Ed0AnRs+eSEFKs+7N4AZ/x4dk8/8wfHD =34mK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----