From john at perlwolf.com  Mon Jun  1 09:54:05 2009
From: john at perlwolf.com (John Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:54:05 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Is there a three-way version of...
In-Reply-To: <cda3eb110905292354u4f57b252xe39093787e403713@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A20263E.4030102@alteeve.com>
	<ccef7f7b0905291120g5c1380b9nbb5add685b14bcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<ccef7f7b0905291124h541b7997k3fb153d54a517b31@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A203700.80906@alteeve.com> <lvk53zptky.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
	<45535519-7D9D-42CA-8EE7-98CC75B7DB40@stok.ca>
	<4A2042CA.1030909@alteeve.com>
	<6A5D7C88-A25B-49F5-A0C1-3DEAEDB87FC1@stok.ca>
	<20090529204356.GD4363@perlwolf.com>
	<cda3eb110905292354u4f57b252xe39093787e403713@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090601165404.GE4363@perlwolf.com>

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 02:54:13AM -0400, J. Bobby Lopez wrote:
> It basically looks like we're talking about switch statements. An alternate
> method of doing the same thing would be as follows, though I'm not sure how
> expensive it is:
> 
> $a = "";
> $a = $b if $a = "";
> $a = $c if $a = "";
> $a = $d if $a = "";
> ...
> $a = "default" if $a = "";

This has a different meaning - you're testing for empty
string while // tests for undefined.  The empty string is a
defined value.  If would happen in my example below if the
command line had an arg of --foo= instead of --foo=0.

As far as expensive, consider how your version would read if,
instead of $a, you were setting a value nested deep in a hash.
The direct change to your form would be:

    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = undef;
    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = $b
        unless defined $my{$first}{$second}{option};
    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = $c
        unless defined $my{$first}{$second}{option};
    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = $d
        unless defined $my{$first}{$second}{option};
    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = 'default'
        unless defined $my{$first}{$second}{option};

Using a temporary alias into the structure (as Uri suggests
in another message) that gets shorter:

    my $alias = \$my{$first}{$second}{option};
    $alias = undef;
    $alias = $b unless defined $alias;
    $alias = $c unless defined $alias;
    $alias = $d unless defined $alias;
    $alias = 'default' unless defined $alias;

But that's still a lot messier, harder to read, and more
expensive to execute than:

    $my{$first}{$second}{option} = $b // $c // $d // 'default';

> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 4:43 PM, John Macdonald <john at perlwolf.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 04:20:48PM -0400, Mike Stok wrote:
> > > As of perl 5.10 (I think) it is the "defined or" operator which only
> > > returns the right hand side if the left hand side is undef, from perlop:
> > >
> > >        C?style Logical Defined?Or
> > >
> > >        Although it has no direct equivalent in C, Perl?s "//" operator is
> > >        related to its C?style or.  In fact, it?s exactly the same as
> > > "||",
> > >        except that it tests the left hand side?s definedness instead of
> > > its
> > >        truth.  Thus, "$a // $b" is similar to "defined($a) || $b" (except
> > > that
> > >        it returns the value of $a rather than the value of
> > > "defined($a)") and
> > >        is exactly equivalent to "defined($a) ? $a : $b".  This is very
> > > useful
> > >        for providing default values for variables.  If you actually want
> > > to
> > >        test if at least one of $a and $b is defined, use "defined($a //
> > > $b)".
> > >
> > >        The "||", "//" and "&&" operators return the last value evaluated
> > >        (unlike C?s "||" and "&&", which return 0 or 1).
> >
> > This is especially useful for setting a value that can come from
> > multiple optional locations, and using the first one that was
> > actually provided:
> >
> >    $foo = $opt{foo} || $ENV{PROG_FOO} || $rc_opts{foo} || 'default';
> >
> > and, as Mike said, this will still take the first one found even
> > if the explicitly provided value is 0 or ''.  e.g.:
> >
> >    prog --foo=0
> >
> > The || operator would skip this setting (because it's false) and
> > go on to getting the setting of foo from the alternate sources.
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> J. Bobby Lopez
> Web: http://jbldata.com/
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jbobbylopez

From john at perlwolf.com  Mon Jun  1 10:02:45 2009
From: john at perlwolf.com (John Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:02:45 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Is there a three-way version of...
In-Reply-To: <982579710905301130t5d45aaa4v71a964f0c62b3f81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A20263E.4030102@alteeve.com>
	<ccef7f7b0905291120g5c1380b9nbb5add685b14bcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<ccef7f7b0905291124h541b7997k3fb153d54a517b31@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A203700.80906@alteeve.com> <lvk53zptky.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
	<45535519-7D9D-42CA-8EE7-98CC75B7DB40@stok.ca>
	<4A2042CA.1030909@alteeve.com>
	<6A5D7C88-A25B-49F5-A0C1-3DEAEDB87FC1@stok.ca>
	<20090529204356.GD4363@perlwolf.com>
	<982579710905301130t5d45aaa4v71a964f0c62b3f81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090601170245.GF4363@perlwolf.com>

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 02:30:37PM -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> >> ? ? ? ?The "||", "//" and "&&" operators return the last value evaluated
> >> ? ? ? ?(unlike C?s "||" and "&&", which return 0 or 1).
> 
> > ? ?$foo = $opt{foo} || $ENV{PROG_FOO} || $rc_opts{foo} || 'default';
> 
> This is interesting. I learned something new. Now I'm personally
> curious if there's an operator that instead of doing "or equals", does
> "equals or". For instance, I find myself doing this alot (particularly
> in accessors/setters)...
> 
> $x = $y if defined $y;
> 
> What would be helpful is to be able to do this instead.
> 
> $x =|| $y;
> 
> Or even better...
> 
> $x =// $y;

Not in perl5.

Perl6 has a meta-operator R which turns the following binary
operator to take its operands in reverse order.  So:

    $a R- $b
    $b - $a

produce the same result.  You can use this, for example, to provide
Rcmp to sort to get a reversed order string sort.  Perl6 has a number
of things that deal with operators (the way sort takes an operator as
an argument), so the Rop is useful in many of these functional
composition uses.

I've pretty sure that this is still valid for assignment operators,
so just as:

    $x //= $y;

is the same as:

    $x = $x // $y;

but without computing $x twice, you also get:

    $x R//= $y;

to mean:

    $x = $x R// $y;  # i.e. $x = $y // $x;

but again, without rewriting or recomputing $x.

From john at perlwolf.com  Mon Jun  1 10:09:20 2009
From: john at perlwolf.com (John Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:09:20 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Is there a three-way version of...
In-Reply-To: <982579710905301420r3b06e833x5b4336e9558a67a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lvk53zptky.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
	<45535519-7D9D-42CA-8EE7-98CC75B7DB40@stok.ca>
	<4A2042CA.1030909@alteeve.com>
	<6A5D7C88-A25B-49F5-A0C1-3DEAEDB87FC1@stok.ca>
	<20090529204356.GD4363@perlwolf.com>
	<982579710905301130t5d45aaa4v71a964f0c62b3f81@mail.gmail.com>
	<87bppajsoo.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301249u5fe355e5x16c8650e9f6dbb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<87tz32ib9g.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301420r3b06e833x5b4336e9558a67a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090601170920.GG4363@perlwolf.com>

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 05:20:56PM -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> > i generally don't like using shift on @_ and prefer to assign it.
> 
> True for complex stuff. My feeling is that when it's a very short
> method (one liner), like a simple accessor, shift is faster (from
> benchmarks I've seen) and not unclear/unmaintainable. For instance...
> 
>     sub foo { return shift()->{foo} = shift if @_ }
> 
> ...seems quite reasonable to me. YMMV
> 
> > never duplicate deep access code. use a temp var with the lower level
> > reference and it will be clearer and if you do need multiple uses, faster.
> 
> Seems reasonable.
> 
> > ...in the bizarre case of someone setting $] which changes the index origin,
> > @array will stay the same but $#array will change.
> 
> Good point.
> 
> Thanks for the input.

I tend to use $self = shift in methods - that leaves @_
looking the same way os the list of arguments specified in
the method call.

I'll also use $var = shift if there is only one arg and I don't
expect there to ever be a second arg.  (I won't convert to this
form, though, if a refactoring reduces the arg count down to 1.)

From jbl at jbldata.com  Mon Jun  1 22:12:22 2009
From: jbl at jbldata.com (J. Bobby Lopez)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 01:12:22 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Is there a three-way version of...
In-Reply-To: <20090601170920.GG4363@perlwolf.com>
References: <lvk53zptky.fsf@newsol.starnix.com> <4A2042CA.1030909@alteeve.com>
	<6A5D7C88-A25B-49F5-A0C1-3DEAEDB87FC1@stok.ca>
	<20090529204356.GD4363@perlwolf.com>
	<982579710905301130t5d45aaa4v71a964f0c62b3f81@mail.gmail.com>
	<87bppajsoo.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301249u5fe355e5x16c8650e9f6dbb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<87tz32ib9g.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301420r3b06e833x5b4336e9558a67a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090601170920.GG4363@perlwolf.com>
Message-ID: <cda3eb110906012212s4e844afap7281b988cc493840@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, chaining is faster, which makes sense.  But figured I'd try to compare
them anyway.

Here are two scripts that I used for comparison:

test1.pl--------------------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;

sub loop
{
    my ($a, $b, $c, $d) = "";
    for my $i (0..300000)
    {
        $a = get(0);
        $b = get(5);
        $c = get(10);
        $d = get(14);

        $a = $b if $a eq "-";
        $a = $c if $a eq "-";
        $a = $d if $a eq "-";
        $a = "empty" if $a eq "-";

        #print "$i - a: $a, b: $b, c: $c, d: $d", "\n";
    }
}

sub get
{
  my $r = 4;
  my ($m) = @_;
  my $a = int(rand($r)) + $m;
  return $a if $a > ($m + $r) - 2;
  return "-";
}
--------------------------------------------------------------

test2.pl--------------------------------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;

sub loop
{
    my ($a, $b, $c, $d) = "";
    for my $i (0..300000)
    {
        $a = get(0);
        $b = get(5);
        $c = get(10);
        $d = get(14);

        $a = $a || $b || $c || $d || 'empty';

        # print "$i - a: $a, b: $b, c: $c, d: $d", "\n";
    }
}

sub get
{
  my $r = 4;
  my ($m) = @_;
  my $a = int(rand($r)) + $m;
  return $a if $a > ($m + $r) - 2;
  return 0;
}

loop();
--------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the results from the tests ran on the above scripts:

test1.pl
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test1.pl

real    0m2.129s
user    0m2.120s
sys    0m0.008s
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test1.pl

real    0m2.023s
user    0m2.016s
sys    0m0.004s
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test1.pl

real    0m1.983s
user    0m1.976s
sys    0m0.008s

test2.pl
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test2.pl

real    0m1.612s
user    0m1.604s
sys    0m0.008s
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test2.pl

real    0m1.579s
user    0m1.576s
sys    0m0.004s
jbl at blopez-d620:~/tmp$ time ./test2.pl

real    0m1.625s
user    0m1.612s
sys    0m0.012s



-- 
J. Bobby Lopez
Web: http://jbldata.com/
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jbobbylopez
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From uri at StemSystems.com  Mon Jun  1 22:48:59 2009
From: uri at StemSystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:48:59 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Is there a three-way version of...
In-Reply-To: <cda3eb110906012212s4e844afap7281b988cc493840@mail.gmail.com>
	(J. Bobby Lopez's message of "Tue\, 2 Jun 2009 01\:12\:22 -0400")
References: <lvk53zptky.fsf@newsol.starnix.com> <4A2042CA.1030909@alteeve.com>
	<6A5D7C88-A25B-49F5-A0C1-3DEAEDB87FC1@stok.ca>
	<20090529204356.GD4363@perlwolf.com>
	<982579710905301130t5d45aaa4v71a964f0c62b3f81@mail.gmail.com>
	<87bppajsoo.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301249u5fe355e5x16c8650e9f6dbb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<87tz32ib9g.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
	<982579710905301420r3b06e833x5b4336e9558a67a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090601170920.GG4363@perlwolf.com>
	<cda3eb110906012212s4e844afap7281b988cc493840@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87bpp75gok.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>


use Benchmark ;

running your own loops with the external command time is very inaccurate
and clumsy. perl's benchmark module handles various issues such as
subtracting out a null call, running all the variations for a fixed wall
clock time or count, and various comparison reports. plus it is much
simpler to use and setup than your code. learn to use it as it will make
doing benchmarks so much easier and you will get more useful information
out of them.

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  --------  http://www.sysarch.com --
-----  Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Free Perl Training --- http://perlhunter.com/college.html ---------
---------  Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix  ----  http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------

From ilia at nurey.com  Tue Jun  2 15:54:24 2009
From: ilia at nurey.com (Ilia Lobsanov)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:54:24 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Let's go to YAPC!!
Message-ID: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>

So I think I decided to drive my Subaru to YAPC. Anybody looking for a
ride? And can drive manual part of the way? I can fit 3 people.

ilia.

From olaf at vilerichard.com  Tue Jun  2 16:15:16 2009
From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:15:16 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Let's go to YAPC!!
In-Reply-To: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A17DF0D0-E425-4979-A539-CF8B386E7DD9@vilerichard.com>

Mark and I (and maybe Adam?) are still looking to figure out our  
rides.  I scoff at automatic transmissions!  When were you thinking of  
leaving and returning?

Olaf

On 2-Jun-09, at 6:54 PM, Ilia Lobsanov wrote:

> So I think I decided to drive my Subaru to YAPC. Anybody looking for a
> ride? And can drive manual part of the way? I can fit 3 people.
>
> ilia.
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>

--
Olaf Alders
olaf at vilerichard.com

http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock
http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard



From samogon at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 16:38:40 2009
From: samogon at gmail.com (Ilia)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:38:40 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Let's go to YAPC!!
In-Reply-To: <A17DF0D0-E425-4979-A539-CF8B386E7DD9@vilerichard.com>
References: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<A17DF0D0-E425-4979-A539-CF8B386E7DD9@vilerichard.com>
Message-ID: <e66444870906021638s230e4ba3g4cd16ddb9e5cf423@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to leave Sunday June 21 and return Wednesday night or
Thursday morning.

ilia.

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Olaf Alders <olaf at vilerichard.com> wrote:
> Mark and I (and maybe Adam?) are still looking to figure out our rides. ?I
> scoff at automatic transmissions! ?When were you thinking of leaving and
> returning?
>
> Olaf
>
> On 2-Jun-09, at 6:54 PM, Ilia Lobsanov wrote:
>
>> So I think I decided to drive my Subaru to YAPC. Anybody looking for a
>> ride? And can drive manual part of the way? I can fit 3 people.
>>
>> ilia.
>> _______________________________________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>>
>
> --
> Olaf Alders
> olaf at vilerichard.com
>
> http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock
> http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>



-- 
Ilia Lobsanov
Nurey Networks - http://www.nurey.com
New Ideas for a New Economy
Python, Perl, Java, Linux & more
Toronto +1 647 996 9087
Boston +1 781 328 1162

From olaf at vilerichard.com  Tue Jun  2 16:46:22 2009
From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:46:22 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Let's go to YAPC!!
In-Reply-To: <e66444870906021638s230e4ba3g4cd16ddb9e5cf423@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<A17DF0D0-E425-4979-A539-CF8B386E7DD9@vilerichard.com>
	<e66444870906021638s230e4ba3g4cd16ddb9e5cf423@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <643935DD-12A4-49BC-A4ED-4CE039E896A1@vilerichard.com>

Sunday - Weds is what Mark and I were aiming for, so that would work  
for us.

Olaf

On 2-Jun-09, at 7:38 PM, Ilia wrote:

> I would like to leave Sunday June 21 and return Wednesday night or
> Thursday morning.
>
> ilia.
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Olaf Alders <olaf at vilerichard.com>  
> wrote:
>> Mark and I (and maybe Adam?) are still looking to figure out our  
>> rides.  I
>> scoff at automatic transmissions!  When were you thinking of  
>> leaving and
>> returning?
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>> On 2-Jun-09, at 6:54 PM, Ilia Lobsanov wrote:
>>
>>> So I think I decided to drive my Subaru to YAPC. Anybody looking  
>>> for a
>>> ride? And can drive manual part of the way? I can fit 3 people.
>>>
>>> ilia.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> toronto-pm mailing list
>>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Olaf Alders
>> olaf at vilerichard.com
>>
>> http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock
>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> toronto-pm mailing list
>> toronto-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Ilia Lobsanov
> Nurey Networks - http://www.nurey.com
> New Ideas for a New Economy
> Python, Perl, Java, Linux & more
> Toronto +1 647 996 9087
> Boston +1 781 328 1162
>

--
Olaf Alders
olaf at vilerichard.com

http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock
http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard



From arocker at vex.net  Wed Jun  3 16:09:09 2009
From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [tpm] Let's go to YAPC!!
In-Reply-To: <e66444870906021638s230e4ba3g4cd16ddb9e5cf423@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e66444870906021554g7bf01053s10cb1c0b6024d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<A17DF0D0-E425-4979-A539-CF8B386E7DD9@vilerichard.com>
	<e66444870906021638s230e4ba3g4cd16ddb9e5cf423@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <244004bec936990fa1ff80d5ea47a154.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

> I would like to leave Sunday June 21 and return Wednesday night or
> Thursday morning.
>

I'm going down for the Parrot Workshop, which means going on Friday 19th.
I can do that by bus, but the return overnight bus trip is fairly
gruesome.

Would you have a spare seat for the return trip?


From ilia at nurey.com  Mon Jun  8 12:21:39 2009
From: ilia at nurey.com (Ilia Lobsanov)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:21:39 -0400
Subject: [tpm] my video coverage of RubyJobFair
Message-ID: <e66444870906081221y5845bf19r3d34754a5c64b372@mail.gmail.com>

condensed to 10 minutes - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWe2FhoIjg

-- 
Ilia Lobsanov
Nurey Networks - http://www.nurey.com
New Ideas for a New Economy
Python, Perl, Java, Linux & more
Toronto +1 647 996 9087
Boston +1 781 328 1162

From arocker at vex.net  Sat Jun 13 12:11:29 2009
From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [tpm] June and July meetings
Message-ID: <de03b40d92192f82d84ce5af7aacb238.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>


Nobody's offered to speak or organise June 25, and I can't guarantee to be
back for the evening. Therefore, unless someone steps forward, I propose
to declare the meeting cancelled.

I will also be away for July 29. We have that down as "YAPC debriefing",
so one or more YAPC attenders will be needed to talk about their
experiences, and somebody will have to be in charge, (which isn't very
onerous). Can we have some volunteers, please?


From arocker at vex.net  Mon Jun 15 11:12:18 2009
From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:12:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [tpm] July meeting
Message-ID: <943bdfb6aee8460796d7898609d8331e.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>


We have a volunteer to run the meeting, but really need someone who can
get to the location a little earlier (18:00 or better, 17:30) to let
people in. Could anybody manage that?




From rdice at pobox.com  Fri Jun 19 08:35:41 2009
From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:35:41 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Damian Conway event, Monday 27 July 2009
Message-ID: <5bef4baf0906190835p7b850568m4b92ee33a307481f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

Damian Conway, Perl hacker extraordinaire and friend and honorary TPM
member, will be in Toronto in July.  He has offered to present a talk the
evening of Monday 27 July.  (Probably we could consider this to be our July
meeting topic?)  Details on the talk and its location are to follow as I
hash that stuff out.  Just wanted to let people know so they could save the
date.

Cheers,
 - Richard
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From abram.hindle at softwareprocess.us  Sat Jun 20 17:49:09 2009
From: abram.hindle at softwareprocess.us (Abram Hindle)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:49:09 -0400
Subject: [tpm] What's on for the June meeting?
Message-ID: <4A3D8385.5030401@softwareprocess.us>

What's on for the June meeting? I assume the June meeting is on Thursday
the June 25th.

abram

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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Sun Jun 21 06:15:52 2009
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 09:15:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] What's on for the June meeting?
In-Reply-To: <4A3D8385.5030401@softwareprocess.us>
References: <4A3D8385.5030401@softwareprocess.us>
Message-ID: <8204a4fe0906210615x71485558p7e4310ddb5ab5d68@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Abram Hindle <
abram.hindle at softwareprocess.us> wrote:

> What's on for the June meeting? I assume the June meeting is on Thursday
> the June 25th.


Due to its closeness to YAPC which causes a drop in TPM attendance,
June's meeting is (typically) cancelled.
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From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 09:21:06 2009
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:21:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
Message-ID: <77f3972e0906230921p74c4c694k40a7b9bfa4ec5096@mail.gmail.com>

I've been having some module troubles, and thought I'd start fresh, cleaning
out the .cpan directory, etc.

I don't have control over the system Perl, so I install modules I need in my
own space (~/perl/lib, etc.).

Note, I haven't removed installed modules, just the ~/.cpan directory, and
started over. (Maybe I should clean out all my installed modules too? But
DBM::Deep was a pain.)

% perl -MCPAN -eshell
cpan > install Bundle::CPAN

...yada yada yada...

Recursive dependency detected:
    Bundle::CPAN
 => Test::Harness
 => A/AN/ANDYA/Test-Harness-3.17.tar.gz
 => File::Spec
 => S/SM/SMUELLER/PathTools-3.30.tar.gz
 => Scalar::Util
 => G/GB/GBARR/Scalar-List-Utils-1.21.tar.gz
 => Test::More
 => M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simple-0.88.tar.gz
 => Test::Harness.
Cannot continue.

Um, geez, how do I fix this?

Or should I abandon this path altogether?

Maybe someone can give me some good advice on how to start clean and get it
to work the first time?


-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 09:32:10 2009
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:32:10 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <77f3972e0906230921p74c4c694k40a7b9bfa4ec5096@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77f3972e0906230921p74c4c694k40a7b9bfa4ec5096@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8204a4fe0906230932v1212d455t9734db1831ed4d87@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Quantum Mechanic <
quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:
... snip ...

Recursive dependency detected:
>     Bundle::CPAN
>  => Test::Harness
>  => A/AN/ANDYA/Test-Harness-3.17.tar.gz
>  => File::Spec
>  => S/SM/SMUELLER/PathTools-3.30.tar.gz
>  => Scalar::Util
>  => G/GB/GBARR/Scalar-List-Utils-1.21.tar.gz
>  => Test::More
>  => M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simple-0.88.tar.gz
>  => Test::Harness.
> Cannot continue.
>
> Um, geez, how do I fix this?
> <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>


I can't say for sure, but someone once suggested to me (on a similar?)
problem I was having...

- Manually install the offending module (Test::Harness) and then re-try
installing your original goal.
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From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 10:19:01 2009
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:19:01 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0906230932v1212d455t9734db1831ed4d87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77f3972e0906230921p74c4c694k40a7b9bfa4ec5096@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0906230932v1212d455t9734db1831ed4d87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77f3972e0906231019r4d2285d7h1b2e57f1446733aa@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Quantum Mechanic <
> quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... snip ...
>
> Recursive dependency detected:
>>     Bundle::CPAN
>>  => Test::Harness
>>  => A/AN/ANDYA/Test-Harness-3.17.tar.gz
>>  => File::Spec
>>  => S/SM/SMUELLER/PathTools-3.30.tar.gz
>>  => Scalar::Util
>>  => G/GB/GBARR/Scalar-List-Utils-1.21.tar.gz
>>  => Test::More
>>  => M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simple-0.88.tar.gz
>>  => Test::Harness.
>> Cannot continue.
>>
>> Um, geez, how do I fix this?
>> <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>
>
> I can't say for sure, but someone once suggested to me (on a similar?)
> problem I was having...
>
> - Manually install the offending module (Test::Harness) and then re-try
> installing your original goal.
>
>
>
OK, trying that now.

Is the bootstrapping *ever* supposed to work automagically? If not,
shouldn't CPAN.pm etc. figure out how to break the cycle? I understand in
general this can be a hard problem, but it irks me that CPAN can't update
itself without help (especially given the big hint of "Try install
Bundle::CPAN" everytime I install something else and CPAN is behind --
which, come to think of it, is always behind because it can't update
itself.)


-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
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From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 10:31:14 2009
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:31:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0906230932v1212d455t9734db1831ed4d87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77f3972e0906230921p74c4c694k40a7b9bfa4ec5096@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0906230932v1212d455t9734db1831ed4d87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77f3972e0906231031o320bb087rc8a6239deeaf70d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Quantum Mechanic <
> quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... snip ...
>
> Recursive dependency detected:
>>     Bundle::CPAN
>>  => Test::Harness
>>  => A/AN/ANDYA/Test-Harness-3.17.tar.gz
>>  => File::Spec
>>  => S/SM/SMUELLER/PathTools-3.30.tar.gz
>>  => Scalar::Util
>>  => G/GB/GBARR/Scalar-List-Utils-1.21.tar.gz
>>  => Test::More
>>  => M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simple-0.88.tar.gz
>>  => Test::Harness.
>> Cannot continue.
>>
>> Um, geez, how do I fix this?
>> <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm>
>
>
> I can't say for sure, but someone once suggested to me (on a similar?)
> problem I was having...
>
> - Manually install the offending module (Test::Harness) and then re-try
> installing your original goal.
>
>
>
OK, that gave me the same end result, recursive dependency.


-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
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From mfowle at navicominc.com  Tue Jun 23 10:41:28 2009
From: mfowle at navicominc.com (Mark Fowle)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:41:28 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <77f3972e0906231031o320bb087rc8a6239deeaf70d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA54267DD0F@sbsa.NavicomInc.local>

Run through each one at a time:

File::Spec
Scalar::Util
Test::More
Test::Harness.



 

ETC. until you have only two, or a few interlinked modules left, then,
if you can't solve it, force install each of the ones left.

 

I've never had Bundle::CPAN fail on a linked dependence, but hey each
dist is a little different.

 

Maybe run reload index

 

 

 

________________________________

From: toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org
[mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Quantum Mechanic
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:31 PM
To: Fulko Hew
Cc: TPM Toronto Perl Mongers
Subject: Re: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies

 

 

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:

 

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Quantum Mechanic
<quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:
... snip ...

	 

	Recursive dependency detected:
	    Bundle::CPAN
	 => Test::Harness
	 => A/AN/ANDYA/Test-Harness-3.17.tar.gz
	 => File::Spec
	 => S/SM/SMUELLER/PathTools-3.30.tar.gz
	 => Scalar::Util
	 => G/GB/GBARR/Scalar-List-Utils-1.21.tar.gz
	 => Test::More
	 => M/MS/MSCHWERN/Test-Simple-0.88.tar.gz
	 => Test::Harness.
	Cannot continue.

	
	Um, geez, how do I fix this?
<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm> 


I can't say for sure, but someone once suggested to me (on a similar?)
problem I was having...

- Manually install the offending module (Test::Harness) and then re-try
installing your original goal.

 

OK, that gave me the same end result, recursive dependency.


-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of

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From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 10:49:53 2009
From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:49:53 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA54267DD0F@sbsa.NavicomInc.local>
References: <77f3972e0906231031o320bb087rc8a6239deeaf70d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA54267DD0F@sbsa.NavicomInc.local>
Message-ID: <77f3972e0906231049p581712dcq825b042004eaefd6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Mark Fowle <mfowle at navicominc.com> wrote:

>  Run through each one at a time:
>
> File::Spec
> Scalar::Util
> Test::More
> Test::Harness.
>
>  Thanks, good idea.

I've been looking at my cpan config file, maybe I've specified the path to
perl for makepl incorrectly. So the individual module would install, but the
next one dependent on it wouldn't see it (PERL5LIB doesn't match makepl
path?)

About once a year I go through this, and recollection dawns on me after lots
of hairpulling. I'm thinking "Surely this stuff is tested, right?", and it
is. But the user isn't.



-- 
-QM
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
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From legrady at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 15:16:04 2009
From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:16:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] CPAN Recursive Dependencies
In-Reply-To: <77f3972e0906231049p581712dcq825b042004eaefd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77f3972e0906231031o320bb087rc8a6239deeaf70d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA54267DD0F@sbsa.NavicomInc.local>
	<77f3972e0906231049p581712dcq825b042004eaefd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3c9af5830906231516mbd6549dkd0817005385b00de@mail.gmail.com>

While you can use Perl -MCPAN -e'shell', you can also use the 'cpan command'
which includes -i install and -f force flags. So I would try

cpan -fi Test::Harness

The other option is to figure out where it stores that it should
automatically load dependencies, and disable that, so an install only
reports dependencies, rather than trying to install them.

I had no problems when I installed Bundle::CPAN a few weeks back ... but I
did have problems differentiating between the Perl5.10 I installed for my
own use, and the Perl5.8 Mac OSX uses



On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Quantum Mechanic <
quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Mark Fowle <mfowle at navicominc.com> wrote:
>
>>  Run through each one at a time:
>>
>> File::Spec
>> Scalar::Util
>> Test::More
>> Test::Harness.
>>
>>  Thanks, good idea.
>
> I've been looking at my cpan config file, maybe I've specified the path to
> perl for makepl incorrectly. So the individual module would install, but the
> next one dependent on it wouldn't see it (PERL5LIB doesn't match makepl
> path?)
>
> About once a year I go through this, and recollection dawns on me after
> lots of hairpulling. I'm thinking "Surely this stuff is tested, right?", and
> it is. But the user isn't.
>
>
>
> --
> -QM
> Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
>
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